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AlexImreh
24-12-14, 03:02
tags - Beaker, Butmir, I2a1, Neolithic migration, Nuragic, Sardinia, Sea Peoples, Vinca - aleximreh.ro

LeBrok
24-12-14, 04:18
You need to elaborate more about your hypotheses to get people interested and responding.

AlexImreh
25-12-14, 02:16
As it is my first post in this forum I can not put a direct link, so I repeat the link with the article/arguments - aleximreh.ro
The text at the link contains mostly excerpts from wiki, with maps found with google search and with haplo data from Eupedia. It is more a resume of my reading, with a few ideas that came to me after reading many articles the last few years. It is only a hobby, I am not doing academic research, but I felt the need to discuss with people that are passionate on these things. So a few ideas -
1]After the Last Ice Age most of Europe was I1,2.
2]Old Europe, Cardium Culture and Western Europe had I1,I2 as dominant substratum into which neolithic farmers J2,E1&G inserted.
3]Oldest bronze items were discovered in Vinca area, where I2a1 concentration is highest. I2a1 continuum is also very high in Cucuteni area but Sardinia is the area with highest I2a1 concentration after Bosnia, S of Croatia & W of Serbia.
Let's consider the Nuragic Civilization, lasting from the Bronze Age (18th century BC) to the 2nd century AD. They were one of the Sea Peoples that wiped out most of Middle Asia, around 1300-1200Bc. 4] In Sardinia, the dominant I2a1 (+J2/E1/G) substratum, related to the Vinca/Cucuteni cultures via the Butmir Culture from Bosnia, Croatia, via the sea, was ”fertilized” around 2000bc by the R1b warriors coming from North via Corsica, to produce the Nuragic civilization. (it’s interesting to note that the R1b migrations coming to Europe from the Middle East through the N of Anatolia and Thracia, went AROUND Bosnia, where they probably met a I2a1 population too strong to go through.)
The I2a1 economy was based on agriculture, animal husbandry, fishing and trading with the mainland just as in Old Europe and already had metalurgy, R1b brought weapons&war, they came for the copper mines, they conquered military the island but they were absorbed by the substratum.5]If we take present day haplo percentages, we can see that the ‘farming’ substratum remained dominant in Sardinia: I2/39.5%+G/12%+E1/9.5%+J2/9%. R1b brought the aristocracies, but as I2a1 substratum remained dominant, the overall resulting civilization remained pretty much egalitarian. Present day Sardinian haplo structure is similar to Croatian percentages with 2 differences: Croatians received an R1a influx in second stages from Thracia & Pannonia, while Sardinians received the R1b influx from Western Europe through Corsica.

I2a1: Vinca/Cucuteni> Butmir>Mediterranian Neolithic>Nuragic Sardinia>Sea People
1]Farming came to Old Europe from Middle East through J2+E1+G haplos resulting Old Europe with 2 epicenters in Vinca & Cucueni areas.
2]Bronze technology starts in Vinca/Serbia, Vinca farmers go West to the sea through Butmir culture.
3]When they hit the sea,they learn shipping technology and start spreading from Croatia to Italy and further, producing the farming Meditteranian Neolithic Cultures.
4]Cardinal culture in Sardinia 5000bc. Farmers arrive in Sardinia 3000Bc. According to wiki during this period copper objects and weapons also appeared in the island!!
5]Around 2000Bc R1b warriors from Beaker culture arrive from N, through Corsica. They bring the bronze technology, they find in Sardinia the copper mines. wiki:the Bonnanaro culture is the last evolution of the Beaker culture in Sardinia (c. 1800 BC), and shows several similarities with the Bronze-Age Polada culture of northern Italy.

# 1800bc-200ad Nuragic Civilization from the Bronze Age – metal industry; in 500bc Cartagina invades the island.
# 1850-1600bc first Indo-Aryans invade Greece – according to Eupedia this wave is mainly R1a, the Thracians, the Macedonians and the Mycenians are R1a warriors over Old Europe substratum.
# The Indo-European invasions brought the Hittites 1750bc, the Lydians & Lycians1450bc, the Phrygians 1200bc and the Proto-Armenians 1200bc. All were probablypredominantly R1b-L23, considering its high percentage in the regions they settled.
# 2000-1200bc Crete navy dominates Mediterana
# 1600–1150bc – Mycene, aristoi palace society
# 1194–1184bc legendary war of Troy
# 1200bc -R1b Dorians are pushed south by Illyrians, end of Mycene & Crete, end of all Middle East empires. End of Bronze Age, start of Iron Age and start of Bronze Age collapse.
# 1200-300bc – Phoeniciadominates the seas from. So first ‘Greek wave’ was R1a, the second was R1b, that is why Macedonians, Athenians, Spartans and Asian Ionians were never too united, having the Peloponesian war between Athens & Sparta and later Alexander conquered Athens and RAZED Thebes!
# 750bc – starts the big Greek colonizations, Sparta rules the South, Athens rules the North of Greece.
# around 700bc the Cimmerians are probably the last wave of migration from the Pontic Steppe. They push into Anatolia and later into Pannonia. By that time the Pontic Caspian steppe would have been thoroughly overrun by R1a people.

# 10.000-6.000bc, after last Ice Age, I2 goE to W, I1 go S to N to Scandinavia, from Danube/Carpathian area, to recolonize deserted Europe, following the ice retreat.
#6.000-4000bc, J2+E1+G neolithic famers go fromE to Wand S to N, to spread farming in Europe, coming from Middle East, along the Danube and by sea.
#4.000-2.000bc – R1b enters in Europe around the Black Sea, S&N of Black Sea, go over Romania from E to W, than to the W along the Danube. First base on Western shores of Black Sea, second base in Transylvania, final base above the Alps. R1b becomes dominant haplogroup in Western Europe.
#3.500-1500bc – R1a goes W to E becomes dominant in Central and NE Europe.
# 2.000-1.500bc R1b accumulation in W Europe, population grows. R1b becomes ruling elite, military dominant in Anatolia also.
First tide which is not E to W: first Aryan migration to Greece – R1a fromN to S, over Romania – Thracians, Macedonians, Mycenians.
# 1.200-1.100bc – the Hallstatt accumulation produce the first wave W to E, the celt explosion produces the Sea People raids in Mediterana. R1b Italics occupy N of Italy, Dorians end Mycenian & Mynoic cultures, Sea People end all palace empires in Anatolia. The First Dark Age of Europe ends aristocratic ‘civilizations’, destroy the cities, egalitarian/rural area begins.
#700bc – Starting with the Cimmerians, the tide changes again, from now on there will be waves only from E to W – R1a Scytians, the Big Hun tsunami that will be the beginning of the End for the Roman Empire, the Goths that will bring the Second Dark Age and so on, Avars, Magyars, Mongols, Slavs (N to S), Turkish peoples…

motzart
25-12-14, 03:40
As it is my first post in this forum I can not put a direct link, so I repeat the link with the article/arguments - aleximreh.ro
The text at the link contains mostly excerpts from wiki, with maps found with google search and with haplo data from Eupedia. It is more a resume of my reading, with a few ideas that came to me after reading many articles the last few years. It is only a hobby, I am not doing academic research, but I felt the need to discuss with people that are passionate on these things. So a few ideas -

1]After the Last Ice Age most of Europe was I1,2.
2]Old Europe, Cardium Culture and Western Europe had I1,I2 as dominant substratum into which neolithic farmers J2,E1&G inserted.
3]Oldest bronze items were discovered in Vinca area, where I2a1 concentration is highest.

1]Farming came to Old Europe from Middle East through J2+E1+G haplos resulting Old Europe with 2 epicenters in Vinca & Cucueni areas.

#6.000-4000bc, J2+E1+G neolithic famers go fromE to Wand S to N, to spread farming in Europe, coming from Middle East, along the Danube and by sea.



There is a couple problems with all that. I deleted everything that was just layman speculation and not actually as the result of scientific study. What is left can be said to be accurate. I think it is easy to get carried away with inventing theories but when they are presented as facts and confuse the newly interested they can be harmful

AlexImreh
25-12-14, 04:25
You have deleted things that seem well established - again in the article on my blog I have the links, the sources, the maps...
Let's consider the issue of sea travel - when did people started to cross the seas in Europe/Mediterana? An article from sciencedaily says the spreading of farming from Middle Asia to Europe was done a lot or mostly over sea. So if farmers arrived to Crete, Greece, Sicily by sea and not on foot over the Dardanele than we can assume that LATER spreading of Cardium culture to Italy and Sardinia was also mostly by sea. Sardinia being in island, obviously the oldest populations, cultures arrived there by sea at least 5.000 years ago.
I quote - The Bonnanaro culture is the last evolution of the Beaker Culture in Sardinia (c. 1800 BC), and shows several similarities with the Bronze-Age Polada Culture from N Italy. These have been connected with prehistoric settlements from the Italian peninsura through Corsica. To this period date the construction of the platformlike so-called proto-nuraghe. In the Eupedia maps we can see Cardium Culture in Sardinia at 5000bc and bronze at about 3000bc.

AlexImreh
25-12-14, 17:26
Let's take a look to the Eupedia neolithic maps.
1] Expansion of agriculture
1.1] 6300-5800 bc: Old Europe and western coast of Italy - that implies expansion BY SEA from Croatia to W Italy, if we consider that the farming arrived to the northern shores of Adriatic Sea in a later phase
1.2] 5800-5300 bc: Sicily, Sardinia/Corsica, NW shores of Italy, S shores of France and SE shores of Spain, all that BEFORE central Italy - this implies also expansion BY SEA to western Mediterana and Sardinia - the subject of this article. Thus the neolithic I2, E1, J2, G farmers seem to arrive to Sardinia by sea from Old Europe. The 'Fenician' route by sea around the N shores of Africa seems to be not so continuous at this time, to my logic it was developed in a later phase.
1.3] Obviously the Croatian Alps were not inhabited in neolithic, but it is hard to believe for me that people were not able to travel over these mountains, so I guess we can talk about a link between #neolithic farmers from Bosnia - Butmir culture and #the Croatian shores, so we can talk about an expansion to W - Vinca >> Butmir >> Croatia by land than E of Italy >> Sicily >> Sardinia by sea

2] So we have farming in Sardinia by 5000bc according to Eupedia maps, now let's consider the expansion of bronze technology, Copper Age.
2.1] 5800-5000bc - Now this map is fascinating to me. For one, we see that copper technology appeared in Serbia and on the Lower Danube BEFORE spreading to Greece.
2.2] 4000-3000 bc - Vinca&Lower Danube is the epicenter, from there Copper Age arrives to Croatia.
2.3] Copper expands in Anatolia from ANOTHER epicenter, and in Pontic-Caspian steppes from a THIRD epicenter. At about 3500bc there seems to be a connection between all the 3 epicenters, around the Balck Sea, through the areas in between.
2.4] 3000-2500 bc Copper expands to Central Europe than to N&W of Italy, the classic Celtic area. BY LAND not by sea, with R1b expansion up the Danube.
2.5] Copper technology arrives from N to Sardinia by sea through Corsica, brought by R1b around 2000 bc.
2.6] I found a nice study on academia.edu by Ralph Gonzales about Sardinian bronze figurines, which dates the first famous bronzetti around 1200bc.

Thus I can conclude/speculate:
3.1] I2 basic layer arrived to Sardinia after last Ice Age and remained dominant according to present day percentages.
3.2] farming and J2/E1/G haplos arrived to Sardinia BY SEA from Old Europe around 5000bc
3.3] copper technology and R1b expanded up the Danube by land to Central Europe than to Sardinia by sea through Corsica, around 2000bc

Sile
26-12-14, 01:56
# 1200bc -R1b Dorians are pushed south by Illyrians, end of Mycene & Crete, end of all Middle East empires. End of Bronze Age, start of Iron Age and start of Bronze Age collapse.

Dorians left modern albania in 1100BC and went south , they where not pushed out by the illyrians , as the illyrians did not arrive there until 400BC . the people wno replaced the dorians where epirotes and corinthians. Corinthians at the same time late took corfu 750BC




# around 700bc the Cimmerians are probably the last wave of migration from the Pontic Steppe. They push into Anatolia and later into Pannonia. By that time the Pontic Caspian steppe would have been thoroughly overrun by R1a people.


They brought I2a into pannonia




#700bc – Starting with the Cimmerians, the tide changes again, from now on there will be waves only from E to W – R1a Scytians, the Big Hun tsunami that will be the beginning of the End for the Roman Empire, the Goths that will bring the Second Dark Age and so on, Avars, Magyars, Mongols, Slavs (N to S), Turkish peoples…


Gaulish celts invade from W to E around 250BC reaching the black sea and anatolia

AlexImreh
26-12-14, 03:23
Yes celts went W to E after as you say Sile and I guess they had a significant contributions in Transylvania in the formation of the Dacians. I think Dacians were a bit more R1b than the Getes south of the mountains, wich were more R1a, and the Thracians were even more R1a, but Dacian, Getes and Thracians were all mostly I2 just like Pannonians for many thousands of years after the Ice Age.
The Cimmerians did not brought I2 to Pannonia, I2 was already there before the Cimmerians. The Cimmerians were pushed by the Scythes who had a lot of R1a.
All these populations already had mixed haplos, Cimmerians, Daco-Geths, Pannonians, Thracians - all of them already had a mix of haplos close to present day percentages, so we can not say about any of them that were I2, or R1b or R1a, they all had all these haplos in different mixtures. In certain periods the ruling military elites in certain areas were more R1b or more R1a but all in all the populations had a continuity changing very slowly.
The area from were came the Cimmerians was the CONTACT ZONE were #I2 Cucuteni met #the R1b coming on the shores of the Black Sea from bellow the Caspian sea and #the the R1a coming from the forest steppes. This contact area, where I2,R1b and R1a met and mixed, is supposed to be by many, the Aryan Urheimat. So if you google search Cimmerians R1a or R1b you can find opinions saying that they were both, but I agree with you Sile, they had for sure a lot of I2 also.
One of my favorite maps shows the area inhabited Cimmerians, Daco-Geths and Thracians, with the same colour.

sparkey
26-12-14, 11:44
I don't have time to respond to this point-by-point, but I'll just say that it's important to keep in mind that the type of I2 dominant in Sardinia is a young branch of I2-M26. The I2-M26 in Sardinia is not even one of the oldest haplogroups in Sardinia, see here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28934-Sardinian-Y-DNA-Phylogeny-per-Francalacci-et-al-2013

In addition, I2-M26 has its greatest diversity around France, not SE Europe, and every indication is that it diversified in Western Europe by the Neolithic. Some ancient I2-M26 from Neolithic France have been found already to help substantiate that. It branched from I2a1b, nowadays dominant in SE Europe, well before it spread to Sardinia. Not that I2a1b spread from SE Europe itself; it seems to have spread from farther west as well, based on both modern diversity and ancient samples.

AlexImreh
26-12-14, 13:23
Well that's a good point!!
A quote from adamo/eupedia: Haplogroup I-M26, the "Sardinian" I2a variety, is found in 40-45% of Sardinian males for example; most people do not realize it is also about 19-20% of Spanish Castillan male lineages in Central Spain. In fact, the very center of Spain, the countries nucleus has a high of 33% hg I. Most of portugal has 5-10% hg I. But Spain has 10-30% I across most of the country. This means that these men certainly moved from southeastern Europe towards Central Europeans then to Iberia from where they arrived in Sardinia. According to neolithic expansion maps, I2 expansion to Spain was by sea through Sardinia.
and sparkey/eupedia: The days of supposing an I2-M26 origin in Sardinia are over; it's clearly a founder effect there. Iberia has significant diversity, considering that the most common subclade (L160+) has high diversity there, and an outlier (L277+ L247+) is found there. See Cullen. That could indicate that most modern I2-M26 passed through Iberia, at least northeastern Iberia near the Pyrenees. However, it's worth noting that the greatest I2-M26 outlier is in fact German, as is a cousin of the Iberian outlier, indicating that before arriving in Iberia, it was indeed in or around Germany, or at least expanded that direction as well between the end of the Ice Age and the beginning of the Neolithic.
adamo again: That is correct. It actually seems to have arrived in central Spain (Castile) where 33% of males are I, and 20% of it is I-M26 like in 40-45% of Sardinians.About 10% of spaniards are I on a national level though. It probably migrated from the Balkans to Central Europe a very long time ago. From there, it would move towards central Iberia. From here it somehow reached Sardinia.
So how 'new' is I2-M26? Link >> i-m26POINTblogspotPOINTro << According to most theories, Haplogroup I is associated with Gravettian culture. The western Gravettians were responsible for the cave paintings at Lascaux, and other sites in France. I-M26’s Overlay with the Distribution of Megaliths. Conclusion It is likely that small groups of megalithic mariners influenced greatly the religious, political, cultural (and physical) landscape of the lands to which they ventured during the Neolithic. M26 is a strong candidate for the marker of a “single population of colonizers, navigators and cultivators” (Cavalli-Sforza 1995) which likely originated somewhere in the vicinity of the Pyrenees shortly after the LGM. As Cavalli-Sforza noted, “the Megalithics may have even been a priesthood or some kind of prehistorical aristocracy, who had good ships and perhaps good weaponry, as well as a much more advanced understanding of astronomy and architecture than their contemporaries.”
So it looks that I2 arrived to Sardinia from W of Europe but still farming arrived to Sardinia either directly from the Middle East by sea through Sicily, either by sea via Vinca/Croatia. According to wiki there are copper object on the island before 2000bc, so we still have a good logic in saying that farming and copper arrived to the island via Vinca?
wiki on <Sardinian people> : Sardinia was first colonised in Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic from Iberian and Italian peninsulas, during the Neolithic from Italy, Spain and Aegean [farming], during the Early Bronze Age by Beaker folk from Central Europe and Franco-Iberian area [bronze technology].
So all in all it looks that the Vinca-Sardinia link is just rubbish :)?
I see however a contradiction here - if I2-M26 is NEW than what kind of people were the first colonizers in Upper Paleolithic? All this discussion could be a good debate to analyse the Alinei continuity theory. According to my instincts/wishful thinking, I do like/believe in the Alinei continuity theory which says that basic/dominant layers do change slowly, that we did not have great population changes during the last few thousands of years. Usually we just have invasions by warriors that military conquered certain areas, than ruled maybe as aristocracies and in certain cases imposed cultural changes, new languages. But in most cases these invaders were always small in number and they were most of the time absorbed genetically by locals, sometimes as they were the rulers and as they had many wives they did changed significantly the haplo percentages..
And also this case could be a good case to ask: after last Ice Age Europe was almost empty, it was recolonized with I2,I1 from a few pockets of resistance. The question for me is from where arrived the first I2 people to western Europe? There was an I2 source in W Europe/Spain or the first I2 people arrived to Spain from Danubian/Carpathian area?
I2-M26=I2a1a is still a subclade of I2a1 which is typical for Vinca area. So I2a1 arrived to Western Europe from Vinca area than much later the I2a1a branch arrived to Sardinia from Spain? What kind of I2a carried the Gothic invasion that came also from the lower Danube area?
Sa again how old is the Sardinian I2a1a? familytreedna - I2a Project - Results ..
wiki I-M170: a quick look here, (maybe superficial) tells me that I2 spread from Vinca to all Europe, from 22.000bc on. to the north of Black Sea and to Italy ie the expansion of Graevitian Culture. The second map there, in red implies a direct expansion from Vinca area to Sardinia through Central Italy... The distribution of M26 also mirrors that of the Atlantic Bronze age cultures, which indicates a potential spread via the obsidian trade or a regular maritime exchange of some of metallurgical products.

Sile
26-12-14, 18:21
Well that's a good point!!
A quote from adamo/eupedia: Haplogroup I-M26, the "Sardinian" I2a variety, is found in 40-45% of Sardinian males for example; most people do not realize it is also about 19-20% of Spanish Castillan male lineages in Central Spain. In fact, the very center of Spain, the countries nucleus has a high of 33% hg I. Most of portugal has 5-10% hg I. But Spain has 10-30% I across most of the country. This means that these men certainly moved from southeastern Europe towards Central Europeans then to Iberia from where they arrived in Sardinia. According to neolithic expansion maps, I2 expansion to Spain was by sea through Sardinia.
and sparkey/eupedia: The days of supposing an I2-M26 origin in Sardinia are over; it's clearly a founder effect there. Iberia has significant diversity, considering that the most common subclade (L160+) has high diversity there, and an outlier (L277+ L247+) is found there. See Cullen. That could indicate that most modern I2-M26 passed through Iberia, at least northeastern Iberia near the Pyrenees. However, it's worth noting that the greatest I2-M26 outlier is in fact German, as is a cousin of the Iberian outlier, indicating that before arriving in Iberia, it was indeed in or around Germany, or at least expanded that direction as well between the end of the Ice Age and the beginning of the Neolithic.
adamo again: That is correct. It actually seems to have arrived in central Spain (Castile) where 33% of males are I, and 20% of it is I-M26 like in 40-45% of Sardinians.About 10% of spaniards are I on a national level though. It probably migrated from the Balkans to Central Europe a very long time ago. From there, it would move towards central Iberia. From here it somehow reached Sardinia.
So how 'new' is I2-M26? Link >> i-m26POINTblogspotPOINTro << According to most theories, Haplogroup I is associated with Gravettian culture. The western Gravettians were responsible for the cave paintings at Lascaux, and other sites in France. I-M26’s Overlay with the Distribution of Megaliths. Conclusion It is likely that small groups of megalithic mariners influenced greatly the religious, political, cultural (and physical) landscape of the lands to which they ventured during the Neolithic. M26 is a strong candidate for the marker of a “single population of colonizers, navigators and cultivators” (Cavalli-Sforza 1995) which likely originated somewhere in the vicinity of the Pyrenees shortly after the LGM. As Cavalli-Sforza noted, “the Megalithics may have even been a priesthood or some kind of prehistorical aristocracy, who had good ships and perhaps good weaponry, as well as a much more advanced understanding of astronomy and architecture than their contemporaries.”
So it looks that I2 arrived to Sardinia from W of Europe but still farming arrived to Sardinia either directly from the Middle East by sea through Sicily, either by sea via Vinca/Croatia. According to wiki there are copper object on the island before 2000bc, so we still have a good logic in saying that farming and copper arrived to the island via Vinca?
wiki on <Sardinian people> : Sardinia was first colonised in Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic from Iberian and Italian peninsulas, during the Neolithic from Italy, Spain and Aegean [farming], during the Early Bronze Age by Beaker folk from Central Europe and Franco-Iberian area [bronze technology].
So all in all it looks that the Vinca-Sardinia link is just rubbish :)?
I see however a contradiction here - if I2-M26 is NEW than what kind of people were the first colonizers in Upper Paleolithic? All this discussion could be a good debate to analyse the Alinei continuity theory. According to my instincts/wishful thinking, I do like/believe in the Alinei continuity theory which says that basic/dominant layers do change slowly, that we did not have great population changes during the last few thousands of years. Usually we just have invasions by warriors that military conquered certain areas, than ruled maybe as aristocracies and in certain cases imposed cultural changes, new languages. But in most cases these invaders were always small in number and they were most of the time absorbed genetically by locals, sometimes as they were the rulers and as they had many wives they did changed significantly the haplo percentages..
And also this case could be a good case to ask: after last Ice Age Europe was almost empty, it was recolonized with I2,I1 from a few pockets of resistance. The question for me is from where arrived the first I2 people to western Europe? There was an I2 source in W Europe/Spain or the first I2 people arrived to Spain from Danubian/Carpathian area?
I2-M26=I2a1a is still a subclade of I2a1 which is typical for Vinca area. So I2a1 arrived to Western Europe from Vinca area than much later the I2a1a branch arrived to Sardinia from Spain? What kind of I2a carried the Gothic invasion that came also from the lower Danube area?
Sa again how old is the Sardinian I2a1a? familytreedna - I2a Project - Results ..
wiki I-M170: a quick look here, (maybe superficial) tells me that I2 spread from Vinca to all Europe, from 22.000bc on. to the north of Black Sea and to Italy ie the expansion of Graevitian Culture. The second map there, in red implies a direct expansion from Vinca area to Sardinia through Central Italy... The distribution of M26 also mirrors that of the Atlantic Bronze age cultures, which indicates a potential spread via the obsidian trade or a regular maritime exchange of some of metallurgical products.

you fail to understand the following of the impact of the goths in western Europe.

The goths where over 200 years on the balck sea, they did not have a huge ethnic populace/army when they arrived there and they did not have a huge ethnic populace when they left to invade the west. The story is that the goths annexed the Sarmatians and getae to increase their numbers.....my question to you is
1 - if ostogoths and visigoths invaded the west why is their no R1a in the west ...............because !!!
2 - If their is no R1a in the west, what marker did the goths bring to the west ?
3 - If the slavs are entirely R1a as its majority, where they even created around 300AD?, did they even live at the time on the black sea?
4 - when the scythians pushed the cimmerian 12a out of modern southern ukraine, did the goths merge with Scythians ..........no if sythians where entirely R1a

answer the question on what the goths brought to the west as a marker and then you find the answers from this as what markers where on the NW b1ack sea area.................IMO, the area was full of R1b, G2a, I2a, J2 and very little R1a at the time of the gothic invasion to the west

AlexImreh
26-12-14, 20:28
The Goth issue was just a question I asked, I guess it has not much to do with the post, not in my perception. This discussion is about I2a in Sardinia and Vinca area. Present day Romania was named Gothia for a while and many say that Goths and Gets is almost same thing, that Goths is just a name for the population named Gets before, with an influx of other people coming from the E&N. Present day Romania always was and still is an I2 area. If you ask me 1]nobody was entirely R1a or R1b or I2a.
If we talk about present day Romania, I am not assuming I am just guessing, I say that between 10.000bc and 6.000Bc this area was entirely I=I1+I2. Than the J2/E1/G farmers were absorbed and until the arrival of the first R1b/R1a, present day Romania remained let's say 70% I2+I1. At about 1000bc I guess that present day Romania was still let's say 50% or more I2+I1, 25% J1/E1/G and 25% or less R1b+R1a. By the time of Dacians -100bc+100ad, the percentages of R1b and R1a raised, with more R1b in Transilvania (Dacian area) and more R1a S and E of the Carpathians, the Getes areas, all these percentages being close to present day situation. R1a percentages raised more later after 600ad with the Slavs. All the above statements are just my personal GUESS I will not argue, I just believe, I can not prove anything.
2]I do not believe in the theory that Goths were coming from Asia, Scandinavia or whatever, I think they came from the areas where they were first spotted by western sources, N and E of Black Sea.
3]I guess the Goths carried some I2a blood, at least from their staying in Dacia and Thracia, and that I2 could be related with the newest I2a blood from Castilia. There are many hispanic legends about Zamolxe, about Dacian origins of old aristocracy, evolved out of the Vishigoth foundation.
4] I think that when the so called Goths arrived in Spain they found there populations to whom they could well relate, speaking a similar latin language, having both similar ancestors.
But again it was just a question I asked, let's forget the Goth and let's come back to the subject, the Nuragic people, a mixture of I2a (+J2/E1/G) farmers and R1b warriors. The question is how and when arrived the I2a haplo in Sardinia, haplo which is dominant today. And what is the link between I2a from Sardinia and I2a from Vinca area.
It seems that I am slow, now after 2-3 days I am reading again what sparkey said and I understand better. Maybe older I2 arrived to Sardinia in Paleolithic from Spain/France, later from Vinca area by sea through Sicily or through Central Italy, but I2-M26 wich is dominant today arrived much later from Spain/Castilia. Much later when? 2000bc, 1200bc or even later? He also said that it diversified in Western Europe by the Neolithic from older I2a1b that is dominant in SE Europe which ..

AlexImreh
29-12-14, 19:37
on i-m26.blogspot - Before, M26 has been referred to as Haplogroup Eu-8 and YCC Haplogroup I1b2. Then, I1b1a. Now, some call is I2a1 or I2a2. It is easiest to just call it I-M26, or just M26.
on eupedia - on the HP tree I see that I2a1/I2a2 branched from I2a around 7000ybp so it is not so new!! It corresponds to the time when I2 was predominant in al Europe, to the time when I2 re-colonized all Europe after the retreat of the Ice, last Ice Age.
Also I think that we should consider another thing - at that time, the distance between the ''Croatia'' and ''Central Italy'' as well as the distant beween ''Central Italy'' and Sardinia was smaller, as the sea level was lower, the Adriatic sea much smaller. So it is logical to think that I2 spread over sea from Vinca to Sardinia over Italy as the route was kept alive during thousands of years, at the beggining being a smaller sea to cross, than bigger after 5600bc.