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Tomenable
15-12-14, 19:40
I made the following graph, based on the most recent publication about R1a:

From this graph it appears that all Slavs share three subclades of R1a - M458, M558 and Z282:

However, Z282 seems to be Balto-Slavic rather than exclusively Slavic in origin:

Direct link: Graph Large Version (http://s13.postimg.org/m9byqefpj/R1a_Slowian_2.png)

http://s13.postimg.org/m9byqefpj/R1a_Slowian_2.png


Aside from some Mercenaries found in Trelleborg there's no evidence for significant Slavic settlement in Denmark let alone Sweden.

Wrong. There is archaeological evidence for Slavic settlement in Scania (now Sweden, then Denmark), parts of Denmark, Bornholm island and even Iceland (Slavic-style dwellings).

This includes Slavic-style pottery found in Scandinavia, Slavic toponyms, settlements. And also skeletons (like from Trelleborg) and DNA.

We also have written sources (including "Gesta Danorum" by Saxo) which clearly say about the presence of Slavic mercenaries and warriors (like those in Trelleborg) in Scandinavia.

=====================================

Check also this link for info about the most recent genetic research on Serbs (November 2014) and about U4 mtDNA haplogroup:

http://historum.com/european-history/80546-origin-croats-19.html

LeBrok
16-12-14, 01:16
I made the following graph, based on the most recent publication about R1a:

From this graph it appears that all Slavs share three subclades of R1a - M458, M558 and Z282:

However, Z282 seems to be Balto-Slavic rather than exclusively Slavic in origin:

Direct link: Graph Large Version (http://s13.postimg.org/m9byqefpj/R1a_Slowian_2.png)

http://s13.postimg.org/m9byqefpj/R1a_Slowian_2.png



Wrong. There is archaeological evidence for Slavic settlement in Scania (now Sweden, then Denmark), parts of Denmark, Bornholm island and even Iceland (Slavic-style dwellings).

This includes Slavic-style pottery found in Scandinavia, Slavic toponyms, settlements. And also skeletons (like from Trelleborg) and DNA.

We also have written sources (including "Gesta Danorum" by Saxo) which clearly say about the presence of Slavic mercenaries and warriors (like those in Trelleborg) in Scandinavia.

=====================================

Check also this link for info about the most recent genetic research on Serbs (November 2014) and about U4 mtDNA haplogroup:

http://historum.com/european-history/80546-origin-croats-19.html

Great job with the graph, Tomenable!!!
I would like to ask you to change red to maybe a lighter shade or red or orange, if you don't mind? I don't have particularly good colour vision and it is not contrasting enough for me with green, to fully enjoy quick glance comparison.

Tomenable
16-12-14, 20:45
Is it better now (lighter orange used)?:

http://s23.postimg.org/hxijdxiq3/R1a_Slowian_3.png

http://s23.postimg.org/hxijdxiq3/R1a_Slowian_3.png

BTW - coming back to historical names of Poles:

Here Slavic subjects of duke Mieszko (Misacam) I, are called Licicaviki:

http://www.domus-ecclesiae.de/historica/widukindus-corbejus/widukindus.res-gestae-saxonicae.03.html

LXVI. (...) Misacam regem, cuius potestatis erant Sclavi qui dicuntur Licicaviki (...)

But maybe this refers to just one of many Slavic tribes who lived within the borders of early Poland.

arvistro
16-12-14, 23:01
Thanks for those graphs. A bit offtopic - do you know if Underhill had also data for Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Finland r1a?

About these data.
M458 is clear. It is under Z282, "brother" of Z280 and Z284.
Z282 technically includes Z280, M458 (present on graph), Z284. I suppose in this graph then it means Z282 (M458-, M558-)?
M558 - I found in other forum, that it equals CTS1211. So it is below Z280.
So, I suppose
Orange - M458
Blue - Z282 as most likely represented here Z280+, CTS1211- (should be mostly Z92+)
Green - M558 is Z280+, CTS1211+

I don't remember how Lithuanian R1A was divided, can't find the study that you linked..., but I remember it had all three present. In Slavs it seems orange one - West Slavs + Ukraine + Croatia. Green one seems everywhere, in South Slavs it is the biggest R1A clade (except Croatians). Blue seems more Northern.

LeBrok
17-12-14, 07:36
Much better thanks.

I can see few groups, proportionally regarding R1a clads to each other.



Slavs that group together.

- Serbs, Bosniaks, Macedonians and some Russian and Belarusian places.

- Poles, Slovaks (but not Wroclaw, many citizens come from Ukraine and Belarus).

- Croatians with Czechs.

- Bulgarians with Russians from Kostroma and Ivano-Frankfurt

- Slovenia is standing out.

Z282 seems to be East European


This is for a quick glance only.

arvistro
17-12-14, 12:58
Z282 seems to be East European
What is meant here by Z282 is actually Z282-Z280-Z92, which indeed looks North-East European. I speculate it will be tied to archeological cultures that are marked "Baltic" in Belarus, North Ukraine, Russia, Baltics. Now it is Balto-Slavic.
M558 which is actually Z282-Z280-M558 looks really Slavic, brother of Baltic. Probably the Slovene tribe.
M458 which is Z282-M458 is mystery. It is uncle to Baltic Z92 and Slavic M558, brother to their dad Z280 and brother of Germanic R1A clade. It is now West Slavic apparently, but what is was is a mystery. East Germanic? Sarmatian? Some other Slavic?

Tomenable
18-12-14, 00:18
Thanks for those graphs. A bit offtopic - do you know if Underhill had also data for Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Finland r1a?

It seems that no (which surprised me too).


but not Wroclaw, many citizens come from Ukraine and Belarus

Indeed. According to Polish 1950 census, about 40% of population of Wroclaw Voivodeship (677,684 out of 1,698,911) were Poles from Kresy (Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania - mostly Ukraine in this case). But in the city of Wroclaw itself, that number was smaller (about 31% - 95,911 out of 308,925). If excluding people whose origin could not be established (21,874 people of "unknown origin" in the Voivodeship, including 4,157 in the city itself), then among the remainders people from Kresy were almost 40,5% in the Voivodeship (677,684 out of 1,677,037) and about 31,5% in the City (95,911 out of 304,768). In 2012 in Poland there was a survey carried out by CBOS (Centre for Public Opinion Research). People were asked if they have ancestors born in Kresy (who came after WW2). According to this survey 47% of inhabitants of Wroclaw Voivodeship (now renamed Lower Silesia Voivodeship) have them. This includes: people personally born in Kresy (old people), people with 2 or 1 parents born there, people with any number of grandparents (4, 3, 2, 1) born there and people with any number of great-grandparents born there. So percent of people with ancestry from Kresy has increased, even though this Voivodeship has a positive migration balance (people from other regions of Poland have been immigrating there between 1950 and present). But this increase is most certainly due to mixed marriages, and CBOS figure includes also people with only partial Kresy ancestry, who were born to such mixed couples.

Territorial origin of population of Wrocław Voivodeship and the City of Wrocław in 1950:

Area - voivodeship / city:

From annexed German area (locals) - 97,867 (5,76%) / 9,103 (2,95%)
Eastern Poles from Kresy - 677,684 (39,89%) / 95,911 (31,05%)
South-Eastern (Lesser) Poland - 427,980 (25,19%) / 70,121 (22,70%)
From Polish Upper Silesia - 60,296 (3,55%) / 12,063 (3,90%)
North-Western (Greater) Poland - 266,702 (15,70%) / 68,233 (22,09%)
Pomerelia-Kashubia ("Polish Corridor") - 4,446 (0,26%) / 1,375 (0,45%)
From Mazovia (including Warsaw) - 121,485 (7,15%) / 41,768 (13,52%)
North-Eastern Poland (Podlasie-Suwalki) - 20,577 (1,21%) / 6,194 (2,00%)
Unknown / impossible to establish - 21,874 (1,29%) / 4,157 (1,34%)

Total - 1,698,911 (100,00%) / 308,925 (100,00%)


- Poles

But I have not yet checked where exactly was this Underhill's sample for Poland (109) collected. Is it from many places located over entire Poland or only from one or a few places in some particular region? I will try to find information where did he collect this sample.

Compared to Polish samples from other studies published so far, it has a rather small % of R1a (45,9% - 50 out of 109).

Tomenable
18-12-14, 11:27
- Slovenia is standing out.

On another forum users from Slovenia wrote that ethnogenesis of Slovenes was the result of two Slavic migrations - one from the north (from the area of Czechoslovakia - probably from the region of Moravia, which is between Czechia and Slovakia) and one from the east (across the Balkans). The latter was more important (more numerous?), at least in the south, where modern Slovenia is located:

http://historum.com/european-history/80449-slovenia-5.html


I found the info that the first wave of Slavic settlers, which were our ancestors is dated at around 550. Those were of West Slavic origin, most probably from Moravia. A second, South Slavic wave is dated at after 568, when the Langobards leave for Italy. This second wave is generally considered more important (more numerous or something). Be it how it may, we still had a connection with West Slavs until the arrival of Hungarians and there are obvious traces in our language that show a similarity with West Slavic languages, especially Slovakian and to some degree Czech. Of course, there was a lot of South Slavic influence too over the time and today one considers Slovene as a South Slavic language with West Slavic elements. I was once told that linguists considered us West Slavic until the 19th century. I wonder if it's true, I couldn't find any good info on that.

But Slovene certainly isn't a mix of, let's say Slovakian and Croatian. There are many things that aren't alike in any of them or other languages.

Let's also add that Slovenes in the Early Middle Ages (the earliest known texts in Old Slovene are the Freising Manuscripts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freising_manuscripts)) extended in the north as far as the Danube River. Their northern neighbours (across the river) were Czech-Moravian-Slovak tribes and their eastern neighbours were Pannonian Slavs (in the north) and Croats. That was before the Magyar invasion and Bavarian expansion (which resulted in the creation of Austria). This map shows the original extent of Slovene-speakers (green area) and borders of modern Slovenia:

http://www.gis.si/egw/ZSS_T04_P02/img/karta2.jpg

Pannonian Slavs (eastern neighbours of Slovenes) spoke a distinct dialect: http://linguistlist.org/pubs/diss/browse-diss-action.cfm?DissID=819

The Freising Manuscripts from the 10th century (YT wrongly describes them as written in "Old Slavonic", in fact it was already a clearly differentiated Old Slovene - distinct from other Slavic languages & dialects, like Old Church Slavonic, Pannonian, etc.):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCmXpiCtRjs

What is interesting is that Austrians today have a higher % of R1a than Slovenes (according to Underhill's study).

And according to Kalevi Wiik's study, inhabitants of the Austrian city of Graz (Gradec in Slovene) have 43% (!) of R1a.

Tomenable
18-12-14, 12:36
When I'm back home I will check what subclades of R1a Austrians have according to Underhill.

I expect a kind of link between Czechoslovakia and Slovenia there, something intermediate.

BTW - is it just me or it seems that Underhill's data confirms that Croats came to the Balkans from the north, from White Croatia located perhaps somewhere along the Carpathians? It seems that "orange" is more typically West Slavic (especially Czech-Moravian and Slovak) and "green" is more typically South Slavic. This also confirms what Shtajerc from Historum wrote about greater importance of eastern migration in ethnogenesis of Slovenes, at least these from modern Slovenia (I expect more "orange" in Austria, though). But Croats have more "orange" than other South Slavs, it seems.

arvistro
18-12-14, 12:38
What are Austrian r1a clades according Underhill? Sorry did not notice your post above :)

Tomenable
18-12-14, 20:56
OK - I did check this.

Unfortunately, Austria in Underhill's study has a terribly small sample - only 19 men...

And among this sample 5 men (26,3%) have R1a, including:

Z282 ("blue") - 0
M458 ("orange") - 1 (5,3%)
M558 ("green") - 2 (10,5%)

And this which would be counted as "other" in the graph above:

M582 ("yellow") - 2 (10,5%)

Let's add that among "others" (3 men in total) from Slovenia, there is no M582 (but 2 men with Z93 and 1 man with Z284).

Anyway, samples below 20 people are not really trustworthy, AFAIK.

But my opinion that there should be more "orange" in Austria is confirmed (5,3% versus 2,22% - 4 men - in Slovenia).

Sile
18-12-14, 21:46
OK - I did check this.

Unfortunately, Austria in Underhill's study has a terribly small sample - only 19 men...

And among this sample 5 men (26,3%) have R1a, including:

Z282 ("blue") - 0
M458 ("orange") - 1 (5,3%)
M558 ("green") - 2 (10,5%)

And this which would be counted as "other" in the graph above:

M582 ("yellow") - 2 (10,5%)

Let's add that among "others" (3 men in total) from Slovenia, there is no M582 (but 2 men with Z93 and 1 man with Z284).

Anyway, samples below 20 people are not really trustworthy, AFAIK.

But my opinion that there should be more "orange" in Austria is confirmed (5,3% versus 2,22% - 4 men - in Slovenia).

do the lombards and Rugii ( both from ancient north poland ) have any R1a..............they both settled in vienna area for a few centuries

Tomenable
18-12-14, 22:33
No ancient Y-DNA from territory of Poland has been extracted so far, AFAIK. Only mtDNA.

vandalorum
18-12-14, 23:14
Some people in Wroclaw or voivodeship have Greater Poland ancestors but their ancestry could be from The Netherlands: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ol%C4%99drzy or even Scotland: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_people#Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_people#Poland) So not only Germanic (or/and Scandinavian I1) or Slavic are they. Besides all R1a subclades are Sarmatian, Scythian or Balts for me. Slavs go to south in VII century. We speak what we speak as Turkish people speak german language in Germany, isn't it?
"We" were baptised two times. One from Byzanthine Empire (Cyril and Methodius and Great Moravia, there wasn't Poland nor Czechs yet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saints_Cyril_and_Methodius#Mission_to_the_Slavs), second by Holy Roman (German) Empire. "We" Sarmatians and Scythians who cross Vistula border (west) with Huns (east people conglomerate) in V century.

The winners impose their will, language and religion. Some real Slavs (I2a1b) stayed in todays Poland or Bohemia, so the language learning process was quite easy.

Od course this is only my point of view.

Tomenable
20-12-14, 03:01
The previous chart I posted compared percent and clades of R1a among various Slavic group.

This chart below does not take into account overall amount of R1a, but only composition of R1a.

So in case of each group R1a is 100% and the graph shows how large % of R1a is each subclade:

http://s14.postimg.org/rlvxzdxkh/R1a_composition.png

http://s14.postimg.org/rlvxzdxkh/R1a_composition.png

Russians of Kostroma seem to be the most "average" Slavic group when it comes to proportions of R1a clades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kostroma

But on the other hand, Ukrainians from Donetsk have the most even proportions (roughly 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3).

Here the same data (plus "other" subclades):

A very interesting correlation can be seen (with only a few exceptions):

[WeS] - West Slavs
[EaS] - East Slavs
[SoS] - South Slavs

And this correlation (there are a few exceptions, as you can see below) is as follows:

West Slavs = more of M458
East Slavs = more of Z282
South Slavs = more of M558

Group (Z282 / M458 / M558 / other - as % of total R1a):

[WeS] Czechs----------------------------(10,1 / 79,8 / 10,1 / 0,0)
[WeS] Czechs Utah----------------------(0,0 / 70,0 / 19,9 / 10,1)
[SoS] Croatia mainland------------------(16,0 / 68,0 / 16,0 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Cherkassy-------------(22,4 / 53,1 / 24,5 / 0,0)
[WeS] Poland----------------------------(4,0 / 58,0 / 38,0 / 0,0)
[WeS] Slovakia--------------------------(4,1 / 46,2 / 48,0 / 1,7)
[SoS] Bulgaria---------------------------(10,8 / 42,0 / 40,4 / 6,8)
[WeS] Poles Wroclaw-------------------(17,6 / 43,2 / 39,2 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Ivano-Frank.----------(8,1 / 40,0 / 51,9 / 0,0)
[EaS] Belarusians Brest-Lit.-------------(15,8 / 38,6 / 45,6 / 0,0)
[EaS] Russians Kostroma---------------(18,9 / 37,4 / 43,7 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Donetsk---------------(30,4 / 30,4 / 37,0 / 2,2)
[EaS] Russians Pskov-------------------(37,1 / 25,8 / 35,5 / 1,6)
[EaS] Belarusians------------------------(38,4 / 23,2 / 38,4 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Belgorod--------------(49,9 / 11,6 / 38,5 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Khmilnyk--------------(39,4 / 15,7 / 44,9 / 0,0)
[EaS] Russians Belgorod----------------(25,9 / 18,8 / 55,3 / 0,0)
[EaS] Russians Oryol--------------------(25,0 / 23,6 / 51,4 / 0,0)
[SoS] Serbia------------------------------(17,9 / 23,2 / 47,0 / 11,9)
[SoS] Macedonia-------------------------(18,0 / 27,3 / 54,7 / 0,0)
[SoS] Bosnia-----------------------------(19,8 / 19,8 / 60,4 / 0,0)
[SoS] Slovenia---------------------------(0,0 / 10,7 / 83,9 / 5,4)
[SoS] Herzegovina-----------------------(6,2 / 6,2 / 87,6 / 0,0)

BTW - resemblance between Czechs and mainland Croats is striking. As if they were one group that split in two.

Sile
20-12-14, 04:20
The previous chart I posted compared percent and clades of R1a among various Slavic group.

This chart below does not take into account overall amount of R1a, but only composition of R1a.

So in case of each group R1a is 100% and the graph shows how large % of R1a is each subclade:

http://s14.postimg.org/rlvxzdxkh/R1a_composition.png

http://s14.postimg.org/rlvxzdxkh/R1a_composition.png

Russians of Kostroma seem to be the most "average" Slavic group when it comes to proportions of R1a clades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kostroma

But on the other hand, Ukrainians from Donetsk have the most even proportions (roughly 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3).

Here the same data (plus "other" subclades):

A very interesting correlation can be seen (with only a few exceptions):

[WeS] - West Slavs
[EaS] - East Slavs
[SoS] - South Slavs

And this correlation (there are a few exceptions, as you can see below) is as follows:

West Slavs = more of M458
East Slavs = more of Z282
South Slavs = more of M558

Group (Z282 / M458 / M558 / other - as % of total R1a):

[WeS] Czechs----------------------------(10,1 / 79,8 / 10,1 / 0,0)
[WeS] Czechs Utah----------------------(0,0 / 70,0 / 19,9 / 10,1)
[SoS] Croatia mainland------------------(16,0 / 68,0 / 16,0 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Cherkassy-------------(22,4 / 53,1 / 24,5 / 0,0)
[WeS] Poland----------------------------(4,0 / 58,0 / 38,0 / 0,0)
[WeS] Slovakia--------------------------(4,1 / 46,2 / 48,0 / 1,7)
[SoS] Bulgaria---------------------------(10,8 / 42,0 / 40,4 / 6,8)
[WeS] Poles Wroclaw-------------------(17,6 / 43,2 / 39,2 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Ivano-Frank.----------(8,1 / 40,0 / 51,9 / 0,0)
[EaS] Belarusians Brest-Lit.-------------(15,8 / 38,6 / 45,6 / 0,0)
[EaS] Russians Kostroma---------------(18,9 / 37,4 / 43,7 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Donetsk---------------(30,4 / 30,4 / 37,0 / 2,2)
[EaS] Russians Pskov-------------------(37,1 / 25,8 / 35,5 / 1,6)
[EaS] Belarusians------------------------(38,4 / 23,2 / 38,4 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Belgorod--------------(49,9 / 11,6 / 38,5 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Khmilnyk--------------(39,4 / 15,7 / 44,9 / 0,0)
[EaS] Russians Belgorod----------------(25,9 / 18,8 / 55,3 / 0,0)
[EaS] Russians Oryol--------------------(25,0 / 23,6 / 51,4 / 0,0)
[SoS] Serbia------------------------------(17,9 / 23,2 / 47,0 / 11,9)
[SoS] Macedonia-------------------------(18,0 / 27,3 / 54,7 / 0,0)
[SoS] Bosnia-----------------------------(19,8 / 19,8 / 60,4 / 0,0)
[SoS] Slovenia---------------------------(0,0 / 10,7 / 83,9 / 5,4)
[SoS] Herzegovina-----------------------(6,2 / 6,2 / 87,6 / 0,0)

BTW - resemblance between Czechs and mainland Croats is striking. As if they were one group that split in two.

so, apart form Bulgars and croats , the other SOS members are not really slavs

Tomenable
20-12-14, 04:40
so, apart form Bulgars and croats , the other SOS members are not really slavs

What makes you think so ???

East Slavs have a lot of M558 as well. Eastern Slavic R1a is the most diverse of all Slavs, in terms of diversity of subclades.

In general this data shows that East Slavs are genetically "in the middle" between West Slavs (one extreme) and most of South Slavs (the opposite extreme). This seems to confirm that Slavs expanded from East to West and South. And also from West to South, since Croats seem to be descendants of the same group of people as Czechs (maybe similarity of names is not a coincidence).

And apparently Slavs moving into the Balkans carried more of M558, while Slavs moving into Central Europe carried more of M458.

As for Z282 it was Balto-Slavic rather than exclusively Slavic perhaps (which explains higher frequency among East Slavs).

=================================

It is interesting that Russians from Kostroma (at the Volga) are the most "average" Slavs.

And Ukrainians from Donetsk have equal proportions of Z282 / M458 / M558 (roughly 1/3 of each).

There is a theory that Slavs had first expanded from the Volga Region to Ukraine. And later from Ukraine onwards.

LeBrok
20-12-14, 05:00
BTW - resemblance between Czechs and mainland Croats is striking. As if they were one group that split in two.
I noticed that too.

arvistro
20-12-14, 10:15
so, apart form Bulgars and croats , the other SOS members are not really slavs
I actually think it was opposite - Green is original Slavic. But we need to wait for updated study because Underhill seriously failed in understanding R1a tree*...

Also from other study it seems green is the most common r1a clade in Lithuania as well (z280+, z92-) was more than z92+. Although it was the infamous study which claimed most of Croat r1a was z280...

*Z282 is ancestral to all three clades in the study :) on top of that it is ancestral to Germanic clade in Scandinavia.

Tomenable
20-12-14, 10:41
actually think it was opposite - Green is original Slavic.

Do you seriously think that when Slavic ethnogenesis took place, they were 100% of R1a HG and 100% just one subclade? IMO all 3 discussed subclades of R1a were present among Slavs since their emergence. As well as some other HGs, including I2 (after all, even the Bronze Age Andronovo Culture was not fully R1a).


Z282 is ancestral to all three clades in the study

There are more than three clades, but I lumped together remainders as "other".

Scandinavian Z284 is also included in this study. I will upload the excel file later.

arvistro
20-12-14, 12:23
What I am saying is that in country x 10% of z282, 10% of m558 and 10% of m458, means 10% of animals, 10% of collies and 10% of cats structurally. When obviously all 30% are animals.

As long as we all understand this, I am cool.

Tomenable
20-12-14, 16:01
Sure, but Underhill's Z282 does not include Z284 because he counted Z284 separately.

Later I will list all the clades that are counted in this study separately.

As for Slavic expansion into the Balkans and into Central Europe - it now seems to me that Slavic Y-DNA (be it R1a or Slavic clades of I2, etc.) to a large extend did replace previous Y-DNA of people who had lived there before Slavs. This is also in agreement with written accounts describing Slavic invasions - for example sources such as Procopius of Caesarea and Theophylact Simocatta indicated that once enslaving local inhabitants, Slavic invaders were usually murdering males and taking possession of women and children. These accounts also inform us, that once taking people into slavery, Slavs kept them in slavery only for a limited period of time, and later they were offering them freedom as equal members of their democratic tribal communities (alternatively they could also go back to their previous people, but only if they paid for permission to go away). So Slavic communities consisted of "original Slavs" and enslaved by them - but later liberated and assimilated - foreigners. However, considering the frequent Slavic habit of killing captured males, it seems that among males "original" Slavs had to be overrepresented, while among females absorbed Non-Slavic elements were perhaps more or equally numerous (let me remind you that Pagan Slavs practiced polygamy - so men could have many wifes, not just one).

This might also explain why in Poland there is continuity of ancient mtDNA (but apparently not of Y-DNA).

Lifegear
20-12-14, 16:38
Racially they have probably some Germanic admix.,from ancient Goths, Germans or Swedes,
Swedes

I'm sure that Eastern-Germany is more Slavic than Poland is Germanic.
I think Eastern Germany is Germanic with a minor Slavic

Tomenable
26-12-14, 04:08
Some more stuff concerning haplogroup R1a among Slavic peoples:

http://s23.postimg.org/p95dqwoor/Chart_R1a.png

http://s23.postimg.org/p95dqwoor/Chart_R1a.png

http://s4.postimg.org/4ftg39xjh/M558.png

http://s4.postimg.org/4ftg39xjh/M558.png

http://s2.postimg.org/y56xlyfex/M458.png

http://s2.postimg.org/y56xlyfex/M458.png

LeBrok
26-12-14, 18:39
http://s2.postimg.org/y56xlyfex/M458.png

The one region of 53.1% in Ukraine correlates with location of second Polanie tribe.

http://itsallaboutculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/BIGslavs_8c.png.png

M458 is the strongest in West Slavic, (Lechites?)

Sile
26-12-14, 18:48
http://s2.postimg.org/y56xlyfex/M458.png

The one region of 53.1% in Ukraine correlates with location of second Polanie tribe.

http://itsallaboutculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/BIGslavs_8c.png.png

M458 is the strongest in West Slavic, (Lechites?)

maps do not fit with each other concerning the south-slavs

Tomenable
26-12-14, 18:50
The one region of 53.1% in Ukraine correlates with location of second Polanie tribe.

Indeed! Great find / observation!

It seems to confirm that those were two branches of the same tribe / ethnic group, which was migrating:

http://ciekawostkihistoryczne.pl/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/polanie-tu-i-tam.jpg


M458 is the strongest in West Slavic, (Lechites?)

And in Croats - which seem to confirm that Croats came from White Croatia which was part of West Slavic lands.

"White" in Slavic terminology designates "north", thus the name of the region means "Northern Croatia" - check:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svetovid#Appearance


Svitovyd (Svetovyd) is an old-Slavonic pre-christian totem-god (...). Idols which depicted the totem were characterized by having four faces. As a result this totem was able to see the whole world. Each face had a specific colour. The northern face of this totem was white (hence Belarus, the White Sea, etc.), the western - red (hence Chervona Rus; Red Ruthenia), the southern Black (hence the Black Sea) and the eastern Green (hence Zelenyj klyn; Green Ukraine etc.).

Red Ruthenia (i.e. "Western Ruthenia" in Slavic): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Ruthenia
Green Ukraine (i.e. "Eastern Ukraine" in Slavic): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Ukraine
White Sea (i.e." Northern Sea" in Slavic): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Sea
Black Sea (i.e. "Southern Sea" in Slavic): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea

LeBrok
26-12-14, 19:19
http://ciekawostkihistoryczne.pl/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/polanie-tu-i-tam.jpg



And in Croats - which seem to confirm that Croats came from White Croatia which was part of West Slavic lands.

"White" in Slavic terminology designates "north", thus the name of the region means "Northern Croatia" - check:



I'm not so sure about location of W.Croats. The map of M558, contradicts the notion that W.Croatia was in Carpathian Galicia region. The best fit for Croats is in Czechy. Actually both maps don't agree with Galicia.
Note that location for W.Croatia was arbitrarily chosen by Austro-Hungarians to fit with their "ethnic order". There are no Polish sources (to my knowledge) telling us that White Croatia existed there. During A-H Empire occupation, all polish citizens received official documents calling them White Croats, as the ethnic group they belonged to. Now when their great grand children are finding grandparent's documents they think that their ethnicity was White Croats and therefore W. Croatia existed around Cracow and Galicia. It is not true, and just a confusion made by Austro-Hungarians ethnic politics.
We can suspect that Croats migrated to current location from historical homeland called White Croatia, and that it was located North of the current location. However the location of W. Croatia is long lost. If I would need to guess I would guess their location in Czech Republic.

http://s4.postimg.org/4ftg39xjh/M558.png

Tomenable
26-12-14, 20:05
I'm not so sure about location of W.Croats.

Me too.

Location of White Croats is uncertain. Various sources (from different years) mentioned them in distinct places - but all of them are along the Carpathians, IIRC. So maybe they were migrating along the Carpathian Mountains, from east to west? Sources mention them along the Carpathians, but some locate them in what is now Western Ukraine, some in Southern Poland, some in Czech Republic.


The map of M558, contradicts the notion that W.Croatia was in Carpathian Galicia region. The best fit for Croats is in Czechy. Actually both maps don't agree with Galicia.

Well - if we collect sources which say about White Croats chronologically, then IIRC the oldest sources mentioned them in Eastern Galicia while the most recent mentioned them in what is now Czech Republic (and from this area they probably migrated to the Balkans).

Maps don't agree with Eastern Galicia because modern population of Galicia are not descendants of White Croats. Migrations happen.

But it doesn't mean that White Croats never lived in Eastern Galicia.

Tomenable
26-12-14, 20:45
Map of Early Medieval Czech tribes (check the tribes of Charvati and Charvatci):

http://labphys.tf.czu.cz/czechtribes.htm

http://labphys.tf.czu.cz/CeskeKmeny.jpg

Smaller version:

http://img9.rajce.idnes.cz/d0901/4/4591/4591434_c847247814c013764841490af27b5cbd/images/CIMG1902_prvni_slovanske_kmeny_6.stol.jpg?ver=0

vandalorum
26-12-14, 22:58
Yes, this Polans were Sarmatian refugees to Le(c)hites land after Huns invasion.

vandalorum
27-12-14, 02:38
Then who are the Slavs? The Slavs are not Scythian.

I am sure Slavs have a large contribution from Sarmatians/Scythians. But people seem to refuse to acknowledge that they were not the same people. They may have both shared R1a though.

For me for now Slavs are only language comunity. And Slavic language was first try to do an international language (todays english + esperanto) for many ethnicities with R1a, R1b, I and their subclades.

R1b is old - european and (I do not like this word) "aryan". R1a are "unwanted" sons of R1b people. Huns invasion pushes those R1a Sarmatians and Scythians tribes west to Central Europe. And if I2a1b (din) moved from Ukraine about 2000 years ago that is good to think that they are real Huns. And if we have I,J,K Y-DNA brach it is plausible that they came here from near-east. Maybe I1 were first but mostly or only in Scandinavia. "I" should be real Hebrews, "J" Semites - semi - half. Finally, there were two great invasions. If german and yiddish sounds similar and german language grew up from proto-germanic language of I1 people....?
Sanskrit was wrote by local "indo-iranian" people, not by and in "aryan" language so the similarity to slavic language have sense.

LeBrok
29-12-14, 18:19
I thought this subject and maps of Tomenable deserved its own thread.

hrvat22
29-12-14, 18:55
That I know Croats have R1a Z280 type....Although I'm not really research R1a Z280, on Serbian forum I saw that this haplotype is most concentrated around Krakow in southern Poland, is this the real truth I do not know ....maybe somebody here knows more..

hrvat22
29-12-14, 18:59
I'm not so sure about location of W.Croats. The map of M558, contradicts the notion that W.Croatia was in Carpathian Galicia region. The best fit for Croats is in Czechy. Actually both maps don't agree with Galicia.
Note that location for W.Croatia was arbitrarily chosen by Austro-Hungarians to fit with their "ethnic order". There are no Polish sources (to my knowledge) telling us that White Croatia existed there. During A-H Empire occupation, all polish citizens received official documents calling them White Croats, as the ethnic group they belonged to. Now when their great grand children are finding grandparent's documents they think that their ethnicity was White Croats and therefore W. Croatia existed around Cracow and Galicia. It is not true, and just a confusion made by Austro-Hungarians ethnic politics.
We can suspect that Croats migrated to current location from historical homeland called White Croatia, and that it was located North of the current location. However the location of W. Croatia is long lost. If I would need to guess I would guess their location in Czech Republic.

http://s4.postimg.org/4ftg39xjh/M558.png



What R1a M558 has with Croats......


Croatian main haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356 / 16983 has origin in southern Poland and is possible that R1a Z280 is from southern Poland.....Genetically only there could be a center of White Croatia.............it is the logic


In the records is mentioned Great Croatia that would include much larger area... however it is a small remnant of the Great Croatia.........White Croatia included parts of south Poland, southwestern Ukraine, northern Slovakia and north eastern Czech....

hrvat22
29-12-14, 20:45
6976 Great Croatia

LeBrok
30-12-14, 08:16
What R1a M558 has with Croats...... Not much,well 16%. That's why we should look for White Croatia in Galicia which has 51% of it. Czech Republic is a better proxy, as per post #30.

LeBrok
30-12-14, 08:18
6976 Great Croatia
Do you have historical sources to support territory of Great Croatia? Personally, this is the first time I hear about Great Croatia.

hrvat22
30-12-14, 09:15
Not much,well 16%. That's why we should look for White Croatia in Galicia which has 51% of it. Czech Republic is a better proxy, as per post #30.

I do not know from where you get this information, but I only know that Croats have R1a Z280...stated I present in How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans? (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26903-How-did-I2a-Din-get-to-the-Balkans)


If you're interested I'll repeat....

hrvat22
30-12-14, 09:21
Do you have historical sources to support territory of Great Croatia? Personally, this is the first time I hear about Great Croatia.

31. Of the Croats and of the country they now dwell in
Great Croatia, also called 'white', is still unbaptized to this day



32. Of the Serbs and of the country they now dwell in
The Serbs are descended from the unbaptized Serbs, also called 'white', who live beyond Turkey in a place called by them Boiki, where their neighbour is Francia, as is also Great Croatia, the unbaptized, also called 'white':



De Administrando Imperio
by Constantine VII

http://www.answers.com/topic/de-administrando-imperio-1


http://www.croatia.org/crown/articles/9864/1/White-Croats-in-Ukraine-and-their-seat-Stiljsko-near-the-city-of-Lviv.html

LeBrok
30-12-14, 16:18
31. Of the Croats and of the country they now dwell in


Great Croatia, also called 'white', is still unbaptized to this day
I don't dispute White Croatia existed, but where and how big is the unknown. The map that you posted is no proof. It was made by some hobbyist in recent years.

LeBrok
30-12-14, 16:20
I do not know from where you get this information, but I only know that Croats have R1a Z280...stated I present in How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans? (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26903-How-did-I2a-Din-get-to-the-Balkans)


If you're interested I'll repeat....
Why don't you explore "Genetics" section of Eupedia to learn more about haplotypes and their clades.

Ike
30-12-14, 16:35
Is there a possibility that Croatia was just a geographic region? Hrbat means ridge, so it could denote Carpates, while Hrvats (Croats) could be Slavs from Carpates (i.e. Slovakia)?

http://www.transcarpatie.dubuis.net/images/carte_carpates_mini.jpg

hrvat22
30-12-14, 17:59
Why don't you explore "Genetics" section of Eupedia to learn more about haplotypes and their clades.


I repeat.........Croats haplogroup R1a represented almost exclusively by the Central Eurasian subclade Z280 .........I. Rozhansky2013/10/18 (http://pereformat.ru/2013/10/kolybel-evropejskoj-civilizacii/#comment-3067) geneticist and expert for R1a haplogroup



Most Croatians and others in dinaric area have R1a Z280 CTS3402....

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/dinaric_alps_dna/default.aspx?section=ymap

There is a smaller part of the other types R1a but in the majority is R1a Z280 CTS3402...

hrvat22
30-12-14, 18:20
[/FONT][/COLOR] I don't dispute White Croatia existed, but where and how big is the unknown. The map that you posted is no proof. It was made by some hobbyist in recent years.





Here you have on the Croatian language only part of toponyms and hydronym which Slavs and Croats brought from Carpathians

http://www.kapitaltrade.hr/wp-content/uploads/Toponimi-s-Karpata.jpg

.... there was White Croatia particularly in the southern Poland and wider ... there's a source of Croatian I2a haplotype and probably Croatian R1a haplotype, although it is not yet certainly to say for R1a.....

Which are exactly the borders of White Croatia it difficult to determine, this map is obviously based on the names of places and some few historical records that mention Croats in this area, or same names of villages and towns that exist in Croatia....

LeBrok
31-12-14, 06:25
.... there was White Croatia particularly in the southern Poland There are no White Croats in Poland. There is no region in Poland with this name either.
You can only find White Croatia on Austro-Hungarian maps, because it was their invention to place it in Malopolska, around Krakow.

hrvat22
31-12-14, 12:40
There are no White Croats in Poland. There is no region in Poland with this name either.
You can only find White Croatia on Austro-Hungarian maps, because it was their invention to place it in Malopolska, around Krakow.

Mother of Pope Ivana Pavla II is from the south Poland declared as White Croat...

Croatian main haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356/Z16983 has origin in the southern Poland....

R1a Z280 haplotype which has a majority of Croats with R1a has a large percentage in southern Poland....

It is assumed that Porphyrogenitus mentioned Croats in this area...

Near the town Lviv in southwest Ukraine have been found cities of White Croats, Ukrainian children come there with school trips for exploring the life of White Croats....



Writer Bruno of Querfurt even stated that Red Croatia was neighbour to Kievan Rus' and White Croatia, as well as that Croats were found between the Bug and Dniester rivers.

The most important and earliest major manuscript with information on early Rus' history and of the East Slavs is Nestor's Primary Chronicle, written in the late 11th and early 12th centuries. It is a history of Kievan Rus' from about 850 to 1110 and lists the twelve Slavic tribal unions who by the 9th century settled between the Baltic Sea and the Black Sea. These tribal unions were Polans, Drevlyans, Dregovichs, Radimichs, Vyatichs, Krivichs, Slovens, Dulebes (later known as Volhynians and Buzhans), White Croats,

Some of the north eastern Croats are mentioned as living near the Sozh river which lies within Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, as well as the Oka river which is near modern day Moscow. Remnants of Croats that did not migrate south to today's Croatia circa. 6th and 7th centuries.

In 992 Russian prince Vladimir the Great during his south and western campaigns went against the Croats who still remained near the western border of modern day Ukraine, as well as the Polish marches and other Slavic peoples. Those Croats were also still pagan as Vladimir had just only very recently converted to Christianity.



..Leaving Igor in Kiev, Oleg attacked the Greeks. He took with him a multitude of Varangians, Slavs, Chuds, Krivichians, Merians, Polianians, Severians, Derevlians, Radimichians, Croats, Dulebians, and Tivercians......All these tribes are known as Great Scythia by the Greeks.......The Russians hung their shields upon the gates as a sign of victory, and Oleg then departed from Constantinople...So Oleg came to Kiev, bearing palls, gold, fruit, and wine, along with every sort of adornment....

hrvat22
31-12-14, 12:46
A very old Czech version legend involving two brothers is also known in the Czech Republic. As described by Alois Jirásek in Staré pověsti české, two brothers came to Central Europe from the east: Čech and Lech. As in the Polish version, Čech is identified as the founder of the Czech nation (Češi pl.) and Lech as the founder of the Polish nation. Čech climbed up the mountain Říp, looked around the landscape and settled with a tribe in the area, whereas Lech continued to the lowlands of the north. The two brothers who founded the early Czech and Polish nations lived in Charvátská země (Pronounced the same and meaning Harvatska country, ie: the early White Croatia/Hrvatska) Alois Jirásek believed that this was the original homeland of the Slavs - north of the Tatra Mountains and the basin of the Vistula.


The first chapter of the Old Czech Legends begins: In the Tatras, in the plains of the river Vistula, stretched from time immemorial Charvátská country, part of an initial large Slavic country. Probably this is the territory of the White Croats (Bili Chorvati) that ranged from Ostrava to Lviv and also to Kievan Rus'. It is also known from legends that Kiev with his brothers (Kije and Chorivem) co-founded (each on its hill) Šček (probably Forefather Čech) Some researchers believe that the Slavniks belonged to the White Croats.


Another well known early Slavic legend is the Czech legend of St.Wenceslaus, regarding the early 10th century Czech Duke Wenceslaus. We find that when his mother Drahomira was mourning his death, her other son Boleslav tried to murder her and so she fled to the Croats/Croatia. This would most likely refer to the still present "White Croats" who still inhabited Silesia and/or parts of northern Bohemia rather than the Croatian Kingdom already formed to the south.

hrvat22
31-12-14, 12:53
Everything else is logic..

LeBrok
01-01-15, 00:31
Mother of Pope Ivana Pavla II is from the south Poland declared as White Croat... Yes, because this was Austro-Hungarian document. It was A-H political maneuver. They didn't occupy Poland, but they liberated "White Croats" instead. A-H documents didn't say Polak ethnicity, but Bialy Chorwat. That's why polish people from around Kakow ended up classified as White Croats when arrived in USA.


Croatian main haplotype I2a1b2a1a3A356/Z16983 has origin in the southern Poland.... Could you support this with more information?


R1a Z280 haplotype which has a majority of Croats with R1a has a large percentage in southern Poland.... Look at maps M558 and 458 above and you will see that Croats corresponds better with Czechs.



The most important and earliest major manuscript with information on early Rus' history and of the East Slavs is Nestor's Primary Chronicle, written in the late 11th and early 12th centuries. It is a history of Kievan Rus' from about 850 to 1110 and lists the twelve Slavic tribal unions who by the 9th century settled between the Baltic Sea and the Black Sea. These tribal unions were Polans, Drevlyans, Dregovichs, Radimichs, Vyatichs, Krivichs, Slovens, Dulebes (later known as Volhynians and Buzhans), White Croats, White Croats might have been in the area but we can't pinpoint the location. Czechs and Silesia is the best guess for me.


Some of the north eastern Croats are mentioned as living near the Sozh river which lies within Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, as well as the Oka river which is near modern day Moscow. Remnants of Croats that did not migrate south to today's Croatia circa. 6th and 7th centuries. Possibly

If you can read polish here are opinions of polish historians and buffs.
http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=14293

LeBrok
01-01-15, 00:34
A very old Czech version legend involving two brothers is also known in the Czech Republic. As described by Alois Jirásek in Staré pověsti české, two brothers came to Central Europe from the east: Čech and Lech. As in the Polish version, Čech is identified as the founder of the Czech nation (Češi pl.) and Lech as the founder of the Polish nation. Čech climbed up the mountain Říp, looked around the landscape and settled with a tribe in the area, whereas Lech continued to the lowlands of the north. The two brothers who founded the early Czech and Polish nations lived in Charvátská země (Pronounced the same and meaning Harvatska country, ie: the early White Croatia/Hrvatska) Alois Jirásek believed that this was the original homeland of the Slavs - north of the Tatra Mountains and the basin of the Vistula.


The first chapter of the Old Czech Legends begins: In the Tatras, in the plains of the river Vistula, stretched from time immemorial Charvátská country, part of an initial large Slavic country. Probably this is the territory of the White Croats (Bili Chorvati) that ranged from Ostrava to Lviv and also to Kievan Rus'. It is also known from legends that Kiev with his brothers (Kije and Chorivem) co-founded (each on its hill) Šček (probably Forefather Čech) Some researchers believe that the Slavniks belonged to the White Croats.


Another well known early Slavic legend is the Czech legend of St.Wenceslaus, regarding the early 10th century Czech Duke Wenceslaus. We find that when his mother Drahomira was mourning his death, her other son Boleslav tried to murder her and so she fled to the Croats/Croatia. This would most likely refer to the still present "White Croats" who still inhabited Silesia and/or parts of northern Bohemia rather than the Croatian Kingdom already formed to the south.
These legends were written down around Twelve century or even later. Thats 700 years after Czech and Lech events. For 700 years they were transferred orally from generation to generation. Tell me how accurate they can be?

LeBrok
01-01-15, 00:36
Everything else is logic.. I can sense a big dose of romanticism in your writing.

hrvat22
01-01-15, 08:06
I can sense a big dose of romanticism in your writing.

Happy new year..

hrvat22
01-01-15, 08:32
I can sense a big dose of romanticism in your writing.

These are other documents wich exist and could be taken into consideration ... This is not Romanticism....

When in the southern Poland and wider is mentioned Poland and when the same question applies to the Czech, Slovakia and Ukraine ...Which are historical borders of these countries and in which documents it is written ..

hrvat22
01-01-15, 08:37
These legends were written down around Twelve century or even later. Thats 700 years after Czech and Lech events. For 700 years they were transferred orally from generation to generation. Tell me how accurate they can be?


Would someone remembered Croatian country around the Vistula if does not exist ....

hrvat22
01-01-15, 09:24
LeBrok (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/27950-LeBrok)




https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=results

6985




https://www.familytreedna.com/public/dinaric_alps_dna/default.aspx?section=ymap



I. Rozhansky kaže:
2013/10/18 (http://pereformat.ru/2013/10/kolybel-evropejskoj-civilizacii/#comment-3067)

Croats haplogroup R1a represented almost exclusively by the Central Eurasian subclade Z280 (as in the eastern Slavs and Carpathians).

A Croats, Slovenes, and as, most likely, the Serbs dominated by several branches of subsidiaries which have a common label Sneap CTS3402

http://pereformat.ru/2013/10/kolybel-evropejskoj-civilizacii/


•I2a1b2a1aS17250/YP204
• • • • •• • • •I2a1b2a1a* -
• • • • •• • • •I2a1b2a1a1Z16971
• • • • •• • • •I2a1b2a1a2Y4882
• • • • •• • • •I2a1b2a1a3A356/Z16983

http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html

So far, most or all of those who are negative for S17250 have patrilineage
originating near the Carpathians, particularly southeastern Poland and
extreme western Ukraine.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2014-05/1400615460


Even though there are not so many results for the new SNPs for people from Croatia and Serbia, many of these people belong to the "Dinaric-South" group as defined by STRs and I think most of "Dinaric-South" will belong to what our project calls the I-Z16983/A356 group.


I2a1b2a1aS17250/YP204 is ancestor of I2a1b2a1a3A356/Z16983

LeBrok
01-01-15, 10:41
Would someone remembered Croatian country around the Vistula if does not exist ....
Can you produce, pre Austro-Hungarian invasion in 1772, map of Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth with region of White Croatia on it?

Ike
01-01-15, 22:43
I recall being told about a TV show on HRT (Croatian national TV channel) about mythic homeland of the Croats. The group went filming towards Slovakia and Poland, but I don't remember the outcome of that search...

vandalorum
05-01-15, 00:21
It can be that M458 (east Slavs - Antes) are refugees from Kyiv region (Polans) far west to Elbe river (via Greater Poland / Wielkopolska and theirs Polanie) and stayed "West Slavs"?
And Slo- Veneti (Venedi) people M558 ("Słowińcy" in Poland, Slovency in Slovenia, Slovaci in Slovakia for example) are still expanded from Elbe to Don (or even Volga) river and to Balkans in different proportions?
Czech Republic has quite small percents descendants of slo-Veneti and quite big number refugees from Ukrainian Kyiv Polans (after Khazars, Huns and others invasions). If genetic data are accurate of course.
Poles, Slovenes and Slovaks have a similar number of slo-Veneti descendants in the whole national population scale = 22%, 32%, 19% while Czechs - 3,5%
Poles, Slovaks and Czechs have big number of Kyiv "Antes" refugees = 30%, 27%, 19% while Slovenes only 4%.

arvistro
05-01-15, 00:43
I think M558 was the most popular R1A clade also in all three Baltic states. There was one study claiming in Lithuania most of R1A being Z280 (Z92-). Second Z92+ and third M458. And on other forum there was a user who claimed similar distribution was for Estonia with M558 being the main clade (according Underhill he said?). Since around 40% of clades are R1a, and close to 50% are M558 (at least on that study with Lith sample, and being main R1A in Estonia), then in Baltics it should be similar to Poles, Slovenes, Slovaks (c.a. 18-20%).

vandalorum
05-01-15, 13:32
Can someone write about data for Moldova and Romania for my weird theories please? Because I do not write/speak english and I have no biological / genetical education.

srbo
06-01-15, 11:19
http://s13.postimg.org/m9byqefpj/R1a_Slowian_2.png

which r1a subclade is the other (yellow)?

vandalorum
13-01-15, 15:41
On another forum users from Slovenia wrote that ethnogenesis of Slovenes was the result of two Slavic migrations - one from the north (from the area of Czechoslovakia - probably from the region of Moravia, which is between Czechia and Slovakia) and one from the east (across the Balkans). The latter was more important (more numerous?), at least in the south, where modern Slovenia is located:

http://historum.com/european-history/80449-slovenia-5.html



Let's also add that Slovenes in the Early Middle Ages (the earliest known texts in Old Slovene are the Freising Manuscripts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freising_manuscripts)) extended in the north as far as the Danube River. Their northern neighbours (across the river) were Czech-Moravian-Slovak tribes and their eastern neighbours were Pannonian Slavs (in the north) and Croats. That was before the Magyar invasion and Bavarian expansion (which resulted in the creation of Austria). This map shows the original extent of Slovene-speakers (green area) and borders of modern Slovenia:

http://www.gis.si/egw/ZSS_T04_P02/img/karta2.jpg

Pannonian Slavs (eastern neighbours of Slovenes) spoke a distinct dialect: http://linguistlist.org/pubs/diss/browse-diss-action.cfm?DissID=819

The Freising Manuscripts from the 10th century (YT wrongly describes them as written in "Old Slavonic", in fact it was already a clearly differentiated Old Slovene - distinct from other Slavic languages & dialects, like Old Church Slavonic, Pannonian, etc.):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCmXpiCtRjs

What is interesting is that Austrians today have a higher % of R1a than Slovenes (according to Underhill's study).

And according to Kalevi Wiik's study, inhabitants of the Austrian city of Graz (Gradec in Slovene) have 43% (!) of R1a.

Isn't that east wave (Antes) is really m458 and this people do not came to Slovenia but more east of today border of Slovenia? The same east wave came to Poland, Slovakia, Czech (especially) and Polabians - Elbe river? And Lusatian Serbs have m458 exactly? Descendants of Polabians also?

About language similarity Slovenes and Poles say zahod/zachód (west) while Czechs and Slovaks (inspired by Czechs - Antes) say zapad and "zachód" for them sounds like "wc".
Only Slovenes say "beseda" for word. Poles or Slovaks use "słowo" or "slovo" but Poles have a word "biesiada" - similar to "beseda" and meaning of "biesiada" is "feast" and that has sense - on feast we talk much.
Slovenes say "gozd" for "forest", Poles "las", Czechs "les" but I live in west Poland and we have small town "Gozdnica" and it is located in the middle of the forests.

vandalorum
06-02-15, 00:18
Ukrainian or/and Belarusian as slo-Veneti = m558 is closer to German because of old neighborhood (Vistula river?):
батько (batia) - baty - vati - father polish: ojciec, czech: otec
матір (matier) - muther, mother polish: matka, czech: matka
брат (brat) - bruder , brother polish: brat, czech: bratr
дочка (dotshka) - daughter , tochter polish: córka, czech: dcera
князь (kniaz) - knight , knecht polish: rycerz, czech: rytíř

Antes arose from a change of word Venedi/Veneti, similar like:
węgiel - ugal (уголь) = coal
Venedi/Venedy/Vendy/Venty = Unty/Anty = Antes

I mean m-458 take a similar name

LeBrok
06-02-15, 03:57
Ukrainian or/and Belarusian as slo-Veneti = m558 is closer to German because of old neighborhood (Vistula river?):
батько (batia) - baty - vati - father polish: ojciec, czech: otec
матір (matier) - muther, mother polish: matka, czech: matka
брат (brat) - bruder , brother polish: brat, czech: bratr
дочка (dotshka) - daughter , tochter polish: córka, czech: dcera
князь (kniaz) - knight , knecht polish: rycerz, czech: rytíř

Antes arose from a change of word Venedi/Veneti, similar like:
węgiel - ugal (уголь) = coal
Venedi/Venedy/Vendy/Venty = Unty/Anty = Antes

I mean m-458 take a similar name

Interesting, maybe you are on the right track.

One correction though. Knecht in german means a servant, and as such was also used in medieval polish. I think, in English and Russian "knecht" evolved from meaning "servant" (as a feudal servant of a king) to today's meaning of knight as a noble man/fighter. German equivalent of polish "rycerz" is "ritter". I'm guessing that plish word has been borrowed from german, a language of Holy Roman Empire.

Ike
06-02-15, 04:42
Ukrainian or/and Belarusian as slo-Veneti = m558 is closer to German because of old neighborhood (Vistula river?):
батько (batia) - baty - vati - father polish: ojciec, czech: otec
матір (matier) - muther, mother polish: matka, czech: matka
брат (brat) - bruder , brother polish: brat, czech: bratr
дочка (dotshka) - daughter , tochter polish: córka, czech: dcera
князь (kniaz) - knight , knecht polish: rycerz, czech: rytíř

Antes arose from a change of word Venedi/Veneti, similar like:
węgiel - ugal (уголь) = coal
Venedi/Venedy/Vendy/Venty = Unty/Anty = Antes

I mean m-458 take a similar name

Knjaz goes way back with kaiser to Roman times and Caesar, and rest are pretty much standard Slavic words with no distinctive difference among people. Here on Balkan you can also hear: batko, baća, mater, brat, ćerka, kćer. Don't see where you're going with this.

arvistro
06-02-15, 07:28
Knjaz comes from kuning(az) according to mainstream linguistics.

vandalorum
06-02-15, 11:45
Knjaz comes from kuning(az) according to mainstream linguistics.

yes, sorry, this one I do not changed from my old notes

vandalorum
06-02-15, 12:04
Knjaz goes way back with kaiser to Roman times and Caesar, and rest are pretty much standard Slavic words with no distinctive difference among people. Here on Balkan you can also hear: batko, baća, mater, brat, ćerka, kćer. Don't see where you're going with this.

Language itself does not mean anything. But in conjunction with genes mean more. We have language "users" and language "owner" or/and older language users and pretty young language users. For me, for now the first user (or even owner) of slavic language are m-558 people. M-458 lived east of slo-Venedi and after some events (Hun invasion) they go to the Elbe river border (V century) and after to the Balkans (Croatia 16%)... and after they go back from Polabie (Elbe river area) to Finno-Ugric lands and teached them to speak words - słowa, so after that they named themselves Słowianie - Slavs - people who can speak, and Germans - Niemcy are people who can't speak , pol. - niemy - mute persons.

MOESAN
07-02-15, 00:33
Ukrainian or/and Belarusian as slo-Veneti = m558 is closer to German because of old neighborhood (Vistula river?):
батько (batia) - baty - vati - father polish: ojciec, czech: otec
матір (matier) - muther, mother polish: matka, czech: matka
брат (brat) - bruder , brother polish: brat, czech: bratr
дочка (dotshka) - daughter , tochter polish: córka, czech: dcera
князь (kniaz) - knight , knecht polish: rycerz, czech: rytíř

Antes arose from a change of word Venedi/Veneti, similar like:
węgiel - ugal (уголь) = coal
Venedi/Venedy/Vendy/Venty = Unty/Anty = Antes

I mean m-458 take a similar name

linguisticsis not divination only
and you cannot put in the same etymologicdemonstration SLO(-)VENETI+ SLO(-)VENIAand SLO(-)VAKIA:you have to choose !!! I recall you I think the true root isSLOV-
AND to link phonetically ANTES to VENT-/VEND- in the samelanguage when these words were of the same period is going far: yetthis evolution or correspondance is very unsure but if someseemingly surprisingevolutions can occur WITH TIME, they NEED TIME ANDSEPARATION/ISOLATION before they could give so big differences whatwas not the case in these old times
we- >> u- is very possible, but u- >> a- is to be proved among same time cousin languages... (NOT impossible but...?)

by the way could you tell me in what language exist UGAL = WEGIEL ? thanks beforehand

vandalorum
07-02-15, 12:12
linguisticsis not divination only
and you cannot put in the same etymologicdemonstration SLO(-)VENETI+ SLO(-)VENIAand SLO(-)VAKIA:you have to choose !!! I recall you I think the true root isSLOV-
AND to link phonetically ANTES to VENT-/VEND- in the samelanguage when these words were of the same period is going far: yetthis evolution or correspondance is very unsure but if someseemingly surprisingevolutions can occur WITH TIME, they NEED TIME ANDSEPARATION/ISOLATION before they could give so big differences whatwas not the case in these old times
we- >> u- is very possible, but u- >> a- is to be proved among same time cousin languages... (NOT impossible but...?)

by the way could you tell me in what language exist UGAL = WEGIEL ? thanks beforehand


Could you write bigger letters?

pol. węgel = rus. уголь

Slavs so "Słowianie" is result of the conquest of Fino-Ugric people. Vents/Venets taught them to use "words" - "słowa". And after that was created Slavs ethnos, as a language community. Venedi, Venty (slo-Veneti) were one nation, Antes second but close to first and all another is only language community.
I use term "slo" to emphasize language owners of oryginal basis of todays slavic languages. Venty/Veneti do not reffered (do not call) themselves as Slavs in those times.

MOESAN
08-02-15, 12:05
Vandalorum, I did a copy-and-paste and my text, firstable, was ridiculously small, almost unreadable so I try to enlarge it, so you had this megalomanic result: it was not to emphasize my thoughts, tryig to impress you...
OK for your explanation of all those SLO-something in your posts ... at first reading I had almost a cardiac attack, believing they illustrated your etymologic thoughts
that said, your affirmation concerning the Veneti/Venedi as ancestors of SLavs and "teachers" (along Antes) of the other slavicized people doesn't convince me -
no problem, because I have no more proof than you have - my feeling is that Veneti were at first the descendants of an old wave of I-Eans speaking at first a centum old dialect stayed akin to proto-Celtic-proto-Italic (maybe proto-Germanic) SO not well differentiated yet, before being attracted (centripiede forces) by subsequent wave of I-Eans or I-Eicized people on the way to satemization - I would see very well at some stage an intermediary dwelling in central Europe (Moravia?) or in E-Austria not far from future Urnfields/Lusatz developpments and not far from N-E Italy... ALL BETS AT THIS STAGE I avow -
&: for Fiinic-Ugric absorbed people by true Slavs I believe in concerns for the most the N-Russians and E-Russians ones - the most of Finnic people by nature seem to me having been absorbed by Baltic speaking I-Eans...
good week-end

PS WHAT DATE FOR FIRST MENTION OF VENETI IN N-E EUROPE, PLEASE?

Ike
08-02-15, 14:37
Could you write bigger letters?

pol. węgel = rus. уголь

Slavs so "Słowianie" is result of the conquest of Fino-Ugric people. Vents/Venets taught them to use "words" - "słowa". And after that was created Slavs ethnos, as a language community. Venedi, Venty (slo-Veneti) were one nation, Antes second but close to first and all another is only language community.
I use term "slo" to emphasize language owners of oryginal basis of todays slavic languages. Venty/Veneti do not reffered (do not call) themselves as Slavs in those times.

OK, you have to be more specific. Did thet taught them to use letters or words (language)? If tribes spoke Uralic language, and Venets spoke language that they did, who gave them Slavic?

Tomenable
18-02-15, 00:51
One important note:

Of course Underhill et. al. 2014 made a typo in designations of clades.

What they have as "Z282" is actually Z280 (and more precisely, Z280 other than M558, because M558 is a downclade of Z280).

This applies to all of my graphs, charts and maps too (I used their designations).

Tomenable
18-02-15, 00:52
which r1a subclade is the other (yellow)?

Several distinct Non-Z280 clades.

See above, "Z282" in Underhill is a spelling mistake / typo. In reality this is Z280.

Tomenable
18-02-15, 00:56
One important note:

Of course Underhill et. al. 2014 made a typo in designations of clades.

What they have as "Z282" is actually Z280 (and more precisely, Z280 other than M558, because M558 is a downclade of Z280).

This applies to all of my graphs, charts and maps too (I used their designations).

"Other" (yellow) are several distinct Non-Z280 clades.

See above, "Z282" in Underhill is a spelling mistake / typo. In reality this is Z280.


Is there a possibility that Croatia was just a geographic region? Hrbat means ridge, so it could denote Carpates, while Hrvats (Croats) could be Slavs from Carpates (i.e. Slovakia)?

http://www.transcarpatie.dubuis.net/images/carte_carpates_mini.jpg

An interesting theory.

Tomenable
03-03-15, 15:22
Among Slavic and Baltic populations, when it comes to people with haplogroup R1a, two major clades dominate - Z280 and M458.

The age of these two clades is:

http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1a/

Z280:

Time when mutation emerged (in one male) - ca. 5000 years ago (95% probability that in period 5600 - 4400 y.a.).
Time of the most recent common ancestor - ca. 4800 years ago (95% probability that in period 5400 - 4200 y.a.).

M458:

Time when mutation emerged (in one male) - ca. 5000 lat temu (95% probability that in period 5600 - 4400 y.a.).
Time of the most recent common ancestor - ok. 4500 lat temu (95% probability that in period 5400 - 4200 y.a.).

=================================================

Distribution of percentage shares of these clades within all of R1a forms an interesting continuum (but also a clinal distribution in some areas).

If individuals with R1a haplogroup in each population = 100%, then respective shares of Z280 and M458 within that R1a are:

Population (R1a Z280 / R1a M458 / other clades of R1a) - according to Underhill 2014 (+ Ukrainians from Lviv & Lithuanians from another source):

WeS = Western Slavs
SoS = Southern Slavs
EaS = Eastern Slavs
Balt = Balts

[WeS] Czechs-----------------------------(20,2 / 79,8 / 0,0)
[WeS] Czechs Utah------------------------(19,9 / 70,0 / 10,1)
[SoS] Croatia interior-----------------------(32,0 / 68,0 / 0,0)
[WeS] Poland------------------------------(42,0 / 58,0 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Cherkassy-----------------(46,9 / 53,1 / 0,0)
[WeS] Poland (another source)--------------(51,7 / 48,3 / 0,0)
[WeS] Slovakia-----------------------------(52,1 / 46,2 / 1,7)
[WeS] Poles Wroclaw-----------------------(56,8 / 43,2 / 0,0)
[SoS] Bulgaria------------------------------(51,2 / 42,0 / 6,8)
[EaS] Ukrainians Lviv------------------------(58,2 / 41,8 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Ivano-Frankivsk-------------(60,0 / 40,0 / 0,0)
[EaS] Belarusians Brest----------------------(61,4 / 38,6 / 0,0)
[EaS] Russians Kostroma--------------------(62,6 / 37,4 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Donetsk--------------------(67,4 / 30,4 / 2,2)
[EaS] Belarusians (another source)-----------(69,7 / 30,3 / 0,0)
[SoS] Macedonians--------------------------(72,7 / 27,3 / 0,0)
[EaS] Russians Pskov------------------------(72,6 / 25,8 / 1,6)
[EaS] Russians Oryol-------------------------(76,4 / 23,6 / 0,0)
[SoS] Serbia--------------------------------(64,9 / 23,2 / 11,9)
[EaS] Belarusians (Underhill)------------------(76,8 / 23,2 / 0,0)
[SoS] Bosnia--------------------------------(80,2 / 19,8 / 0,0)
[EaS] Russians (another source)--------------(80,8 / 19,2 / 0,0)
[EaS] Russians Belgorod----------------------(81,2 / 18,8 / 0,0)
[Balt] Lithuanians----------------------------(81,8 / 18,2 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Khmilnyk---------------------(84,3 / 15,7 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Akkerman--------------------(88,4 / 11,6 / 0,0)
[SoS] Slovenia-------------------------------(83,9 / 10,7 / 5,4)
[SoS] Herzegovina----------------------------(93,8 / 6,2 / 0,0)

Chart: http://s17.postimg.org/8i4qm1een/R1a_chart.png

http://s17.postimg.org/8i4qm1een/R1a_chart.png

Tomenable
03-03-15, 15:56
And graph:

http://s29.postimg.org/n8pi0uko7/Graph_Clades.png

http://s29.postimg.org/n8pi0uko7/Graph_Clades.png

knjaz Milos
30-05-15, 00:35
Tomentable,
great job with maps and graphs.

I would like to notice that beside populations that are largely mix of M558 and M458 we also have populations that are dominantly M458 or dominantly M558.
This is important because it suggests that before the groups mixed there was individual development of each spreading in some unrelated directions.

From maps of M458 and M558 such directions of spreading that differ are nortwest Germany for M458 and south France for M558

Hence, I think that those are the places where we should search either for origin or for colonies of modern populations that dominantly carry just one of the two groups...

If we look for Czech and Croat related people in northwest Germany we easily find:

1) Chauci - who lived between Frisia and Denmark around river Wesser in area of Bremen.. from Chauci to Česi (or other way around) is small step

2) Cherusci - who lived just southeast of Chauci... now Cherusci is the name whose origin is set by science to word Herut ..this is also not far from Hervati



if we look for Slovene (and Slovak?) in history of south France we easily find:
tribal union Slavi (Salyes ( Greek: Σάλυες) or Salluvi) whose last king was Tutomotulus. He lost battle with Romans and his people saw him as weak guy who missed golden chance...

Now ask anyone in Slovakia about meaning of weird word Tutimutilis or ask Serbs about meaning of word TutaMuta...they will all tell you its sweet way to criticize toddler about his weakness...

after that defeat nothing is known of this tribe...my guess that they moved along Rhone river (around which they lived especially in plane called Druentia (Slavic place name would be Drvenica or place with lot of woods (drvo)) to north fleeing Romans...

curiously Slovaks live around river Hron...its second largest river in Slovakia with length of 298 kilometers... again words Rhone and Hron are very likely of same origin....Rhone comes from Alps and first flows towards west and than towards south...river Hron cmes from Tatra mountains which are highest (like Alps) of Carpathian mountains...first it flows to west than to south... so its not just similarity of names.... its similarity of landscape as well...and furthermore its 300 km long river and only Slovakians all around it which places it in central area of their settlement...


I do not think that south Slavs (Croats are originally not part of this group) lived in south France though... I think they lived in Pannonia...from Slovakia to Greece... "Pan" is a word for (noble) man in Czecho-Slovakian ....so Pannonians would just mean "people"

this also explains notion of Danubian Slavs living around Danube prior to expansion of Roman empire as described in Russian primary chronicle.....

I believe that in such context ancestors of Serbs would be Boii and Ser Boii... historic sources (Byzantine emperor) states that white Serbs came to Balkan from place they call in own language Boika and that the land is beyond Hungary and is neighbouring Franks (used to live in west most Germany prior to expansion) and white Croats (think here also of Cherusci living from Wesser to Elbe).... and that they are also originally from that land... now Boika is of course land of Boii..it is Bohemia/Bavaria...

but they are white Serbs.... in my theory white is northwest of main body of nation (examples are Belarus being northwest of Russia and white Syrians being in Cappadokia northwest of Syria)

so core of Serbs must have been southeast of Boii...only candidates are Scordisci...who are related and perhaps derived from Boii... or are they Ser Boii ...Ser being word for head, core in iranian languages.....

now look at Nepal there lives a nation Sherpa... they are Tibetan related folk but unlike other Tibetans they have significant percentage of R1a and E1b...and they also have circle dance very much like Serbian "kolo" which is quite unusual for that area...

the meaning of their name in their own language is Sher + pa = eastern people...

note "pa" for people, same like I suggested for Pannoninas.... now Sher as eastern... this etymology can be linked to PIE....Slavic Zora = dawn comes from east....

so Ser Boii as eastern Boii (PIE version)? or as main Boii (iranic version)?

in the end look at Serbia now, north most part is Vojvodina...Boii + vodina (waterland)..its area of Danube... if you think Voj is quite different from Boii, well while Serbs still use word boj for battle, derived words have changed to forms starting with "V"...e.g. Croats have bojnik for soldier, Serbs have vojnik...from "bojevati" more modern is "vojevati"....

now following comparison with R1a E1b Sherpa people if pa means people , one would expect Boii in meaning people...

boj = battle in Slavic, vojnik/bojnik = soldier, warrior, so the etymology would be about people warriors... and Bojka would be land of battlefield or borderland... and indeed Boii were displaced from Bohemia by Germanic Marcomani (note that these are also border people cause Mark is border in germanic)...where they move to "deserta of Boii"..."desert mean again border area...

why would Scordisci be Ser Boii?I except for being exactly (southeast of Boii) as where one would expect Ser Boii?

because -isci is just celtic ending and has no meaning for core name...
because 'Sc' i just 'S' same as in Sclaveni
because with previous two its Scordisci -> Sordi
and we know that Serdi is tribal name of people who moved from area of Scordisci to Thrace and became thracanized...So Serdi may have been original..prior to getting celticized form and being written down by Romans or Greeks...
or was it Serbi?

after all if we have in Nepal the Sherpa people that dance circle dance (their word for dance is 'sharwu') alike Serbian "kolo" and call their military leader 'serdar' same as Serbs did, and who have R1a and E1b that merged several thousands year ago, where could have this ancient merging of R1a and E1b happened except in Balkans, in Serbia, or alternatively nearby in Asia minor with candidates being Lydia (ljudi = people in Serbian) with its town Sardis and people named Mushki (mushki = males in Serbian)..think here also of word Moesia (ancient name for Serbia and north Boulgaria) as related to Asia minor tribe Mushki?

As for I2a if one wonders if it is Croat related....I do not think so... I2a is not spread in northwest Germany....i think its origin is around north and west coasts of Black sea and it spread into Balkans when Cimmerians were forced by Scythians (R1b people in my opinion) to move away from there...I think elite of Cimmerians did origin from Sumerians and ordinary people were local I2a (ancient Greeks write about ancient movement of Syrian people across Caucasus and they also write about Syrians = Sumerians and about white Syrians in Kappadokia..while other sources mention Cimmerians in Kappadokia) ...hence a possibility why Cimmerians would be easily merged into Serbs is that they could have culturally derived origin from Sumerians and from their goddess Sarpanit/Zerbanit ...

notice in white Syrians the same "white" naming pattern for northwest most part of land..as for Serbs, Russians (Belarus = white Russia, belo = white), Croats ....i explain it with religion dedicated to light (Zora/Danica is dawn goddess, Sarpanit as well)...white light is night light, hence northwest area is white area like Belarus.. Sarpanit had as it mark crescent (we call it "srpanj" in serbian) and was related to Venus.....look at coat of arms of Serbs...its left and right crescent mirrored around horizontal axis.... why left and right...because it is crescent but it is not Moon..it is Venus...Venus we can see like left and right crescent....Venus is planet that announced day.. same like with it associated dawn goddess did...
In my opinion, goddes Sarpanit was known as Ishara to Syrians, Tanit to Phoenicians, Asher to Israelites, Aushrine to Balts, Ishtar on middle east, Ostara to Germanic people. Asura/ Danu in Sanskrit and Irish (similar to Serbian Zora/Danica), Isis to Egyptians, and Eos to Greeks (PIE form would Ausos)... note that names Ostara and Ishtar are based on word for star....while we in Serbia always say zvezda (star) Danica and zvezda Danica plays still important role in our preserved poetry and collective memory...
I will skip obvious explanations that Ostrogoths (Heruli and Scirri) are Ostara's Goths and why Austria has its name Austria...this doesnot necesserilly mean that Scirii and Heruli were Serbs and Croats (although Letopis popa Dukljanina claims them to be Goths), we are speaking here about old PIE religion and culture shared between many Indo-European countries...

LeBrok
30-05-15, 02:36
Tomentable,
great job with maps and graphs.

I would like to notice that beside populations that are largely mix of M558 and M458 we also have populations that are dominantly M458 or dominantly M558.
This is important because it suggests that before the groups mixed there was individual development of each spreading in some unrelated directions.

From maps of M458 and M558 such directions of spreading that differ are nortwest Germany for M458 and south France for M558

Hence, I think that those are the places where we should search either for origin or for colonies of modern populations that dominantly carry just one of the two groups...

If we look for Czech and Croat related people in northwest Germany we easily find:

1) Chauci - who lived between Frisia and Denmark around river Wesser in area of Bremen.. from Chauci to Česi (or other way around) is small step

2) Cherusci - who lived just southeast of Chauci... now Cherusci is the name whose origin is set by science to word Herut ..this is also not far from Hervati



if we look for Slovene (and Slovak?) in history of south France we easily find:
tribal union Slavi (Salyes ( Greek: Σάλυες) or Salluvi) whose last king was Tutomotulus. He lost battle with Romans and his people saw him as weak guy who missed golden chance...

I'm sure most what you described is coincidental. There are tens of thousands words in vocabulary of every language. It would be impossible thing not to find similar sounding words when comparing any two languages.

knjaz Milos
30-05-15, 04:05
I'm sure most what you described is coincidental. There are tens of thousands words in vocabulary of every language. It would be impossible thing not to find similar sounding words when comparing any two languages.

would you agree that people who lived in Roman empire are much more likely to have latin based names of months than those that did not?
well Czechs and Croats have Slavic month names while Slovaks and Serbs have latin month names. This fits exactly in the model that I have described and is hard to explain with traditional ideas of historians....

Really?I am speaking of M458 moving on line northwest Germany - Czech republic.... without being accompanied by M558
exactly on that line are Chauci and Cherusci (Heruti)... look on one of previous posts a map of Croats among Czech tribes...they are exactly to south east from Česi tribe same as as Heruti are from Chauci.... they just moved down the Wesser and Elbe and arrived into Bohemia from which Boii were expelled earlier....same as Slovaks and Slovenes went up the Rhone under pressure of ...

Btw. are you aware that with Chauci and Cimbri we speak of Ingaevones subgroup of Germanic?
Inga means son, or people of ....

so we speak of originally tribes of Veoni...or Veni /Veneti...
Do you know how Finish call Russia?
Venaja being land
so what would be sons of Venaja in Germanic? ingae-vena?

Besides look at late bronze age cultures...Chauci and Cherusci area was not part of proto Germanic nordic bronze age....
it was part of Urnfield...
same as area of tribal group Slavi, of Scordisci...and Tribali...

note that ancient Greeks in earliest history put Celts on west most parts of Europe on coasts of Atlantic...
that is because true ancestors of Celts were Atlantic bronze age culture....

look at Maciamos R1b ht35 maps...and you will see that R1b arrived to Europe in 2 ways: via Scythia, settling longest in Dacia, from where later to Germany...
and other part via sea from Asia minor to Sicily and than to Albania, coasts of Galia and Portugal...
there comes from ancient Greek myth about brothers Illyrius, Gallus and Celtus from island of Sicily....
later from Portugal Celts have expanded to complete Atlantic coast....but core area is the one where Celtic languages still exist...

from what I see Urnfield was R1a and hence probably pre-west/south Slavic (Russians were even then in Russia as Aorsi and Belarus northwest of them as Boreans, Burri...)... areas of Chauci and Cherusci and tribal union Slavi are exactly western borders of Urnfield on most north and most south parts...

Hallstat however was result of expansion of Atlantic bronze age towards east....
what is called east Hallstat (Czeco-Slovakia, Pannonia, Austria, Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia) however was not so much Hallstat as it was influenced by it
e.g. its clear that they still use burials derived from corded ware.. East Hallstat celebrates goddes under name or epithet Sulevia...coincidence? hm...
On areas of Urnfield and of later east Hallstat come Chauci, Cherusci, Norici, Raeti, Boii, Scordisci, Cornacates and Pannoni....I have explained you Chauci, Cherusci, Slavi, Boii and Scordisci... let me mention that Norici were mentioned as originally Slavic by Russian primary chronicle ... and that Serbia had name Raška in medival times...and that current state is easilz explainable with expansions of first Roman empire and than of Germanic people...

look I do not think anyone can claim any land based on distant history...cause if that would be allowed any nation/tribe could claim any land...but it doesnot make sense to me an attempt of official history to push west and south Slavs out of central Europe into Ukraine and Russia...from genetics it is clear that R1a branches specific for Russia and Belarus didnot move from there to areas of south and west Slavs...

Boreas
30-05-15, 06:24
İs there any map for Z282?

Tomenable
30-05-15, 10:40
These are locations of ancient DNA samples of R1a and R1b haplogroups found so far, from period 8000 - 2000 years ago:

http://s24.postimg.org/tbvhtfpcl/R1a_vs_R1b.png

The two oldest samples - 7500 ybp (from Southern Deer Island, Lake Onega, Karelia) and 6000 ybp (found near the city of Velizh) were hunter-gatherers.

Samples of R1a from Poland and East Germany were found in the context of Copper-Bronze Age Corded Ware cultures (4600 ybp, 4400 ybp and 4000 ybp), as well as the Lusatian Culture (3100 ybp). Samples of R1b from Germany were found in the context of Copper-Bronze Age Bell Beaker cultures (4500 ybp and 4300 ybp):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusatian_culture

Only the burial site belonging to Urnfield cultural horizon located near Dorste (3000 ybp) happened to contain both R1a (x2) and R1b (x1):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture

The most important of all settlements of the Lusatian Culture found so far, was Biskupin:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biskupin


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc_KLJrD054

Tomenable
30-05-15, 10:41
These are locations of ancient DNA samples of R1a and R1b haplogroups found so far, from period 8000 - 2000 years ago:

http://s24.postimg.org/tbvhtfpcl/R1a_vs_R1b.png

And modern dominant haplogroups by country for comparison - R1b is pink here (while R1a is red like before):

http://s4.postimg.org/kji3ibznx/Dominant_YDNA.png

Namu
23-02-16, 14:31
I'd love to see a further refined form of these maps where M458 gets broken down between its L260 and L1029 subclades. From what I gathered so far, both were present during the slavic expansion, however L260 is more prevalent now in polish lands whereas L1029 seems to have travelled much further (though rare it can be found in Italy, Greece, and even UK and Spain).

mihaitzateo
28-02-16, 23:25
What about Norse R1-A1?
To which branch is closer,to R1A-M458 or to R1A-Z280?
Or to neither?

MOESAN
10-03-16, 19:27
And modern dominant haplogroups by country for comparison - R1b is pink here (while R1a is red like before):

http://s4.postimg.org/kji3ibznx/Dominant_YDNA.png

I'm doubtfull about Croatia: I think Y-I2 is stronger there than Y-R1a

MOESAN
10-03-16, 19:59
Tomentable,
great job with maps and graphs.

I would like to notice that beside populations that are largely mix of M558 and M458 we also have populations that are dominantly M458 or dominantly M558.
This is important because it suggests that before the groups mixed there was individual development of each spreading in some unrelated directions.

From maps of M458 and M558 such directions of spreading that differ are nortwest Germany for M458 and south France for M558

Hence, I think that those are the places where we should search either for origin or for colonies of modern populations that dominantly carry just one of the two groups...

If we look for Czech and Croat related people in northwest Germany we easily find:

1) Chauci - who lived between Frisia and Denmark around river Wesser in area of Bremen.. from Chauci to Česi (or other way around) is small step

2) Cherusci - who lived just southeast of Chauci... now Cherusci is the name whose origin is set by science to word Herut ..this is also not far from Hervati



if we look for Slovene (and Slovak?) in history of south France we easily find:
tribal union Slavi (Salyes ( Greek: Σάλυες) or Salluvi) whose last king was Tutomotulus. He lost battle with Romans and his people saw him as weak guy who missed golden chance...

Now ask anyone in Slovakia about meaning of weird word Tutimutilis or ask Serbs about meaning of word TutaMuta...they will all tell you its sweet way to criticize toddler about his weakness...

after that defeat nothing is known of this tribe...my guess that they moved along Rhone river (around which they lived especially in plane called Druentia (Slavic place name would be Drvenica or place with lot of woods (drvo)) to north fleeing Romans...

curiously Slovaks live around river Hron...its second largest river in Slovakia with length of 298 kilometers... again words Rhone and Hron are very likely of same origin....Rhone comes from Alps and first flows towards west and than towards south...river Hron cmes from Tatra mountains which are highest (like Alps) of Carpathian mountains...first it flows to west than to south... so its not just similarity of names.... its similarity of landscape as well...and furthermore its 300 km long river and only Slovakians all around it which places it in central area of their settlement...


I do not think that south Slavs (Croats are originally not part of this group) lived in south France though... I think they lived in Pannonia...from Slovakia to Greece... "Pan" is a word for (noble) man in Czecho-Slovakian ....so Pannonians would just mean "people"

this also explains notion of Danubian Slavs living around Danube prior to expansion of Roman empire as described in Russian primary chronicle.....

I believe that in such context ancestors of Serbs would be Boii and Ser Boii... historic sources (Byzantine emperor) states that white Serbs came to Balkan from place they call in own language Boika and that the land is beyond Hungary and is neighbouring Franks (used to live in west most Germany prior to expansion) and white Croats (think here also of Cherusci living from Wesser to Elbe).... and that they are also originally from that land... now Boika is of course land of Boii..it is Bohemia/Bavaria...

but they are white Serbs.... in my theory white is northwest of main body of nation (examples are Belarus being northwest of Russia and white Syrians being in Cappadokia northwest of Syria)

so core of Serbs must have been southeast of Boii...only candidates are Scordisci...who are related and perhaps derived from Boii... or are they Ser Boii ...Ser being word for head, core in iranian languages.....

now look at Nepal there lives a nation Sherpa... they are Tibetan related folk but unlike other Tibetans they have significant percentage of R1a and E1b...and they also have circle dance very much like Serbian "kolo" which is quite unusual for that area...

the meaning of their name in their own language is Sher + pa = eastern people...

note "pa" for people, same like I suggested for Pannoninas.... now Sher as eastern... this etymology can be linked to PIE....Slavic Zora = dawn comes from east....

so Ser Boii as eastern Boii (PIE version)? or as main Boii (iranic version)?

in the end look at Serbia now, north most part is Vojvodina...Boii + vodina (waterland)..its area of Danube... if you think Voj is quite different from Boii, well while Serbs still use word boj for battle, derived words have changed to forms starting with "V"...e.g. Croats have bojnik for soldier, Serbs have vojnik...from "bojevati" more modern is "vojevati"....

now following comparison with R1a E1b Sherpa people if pa means people , one would expect Boii in meaning people...

boj = battle in Slavic, vojnik/bojnik = soldier, warrior, so the etymology would be about people warriors... and Bojka would be land of battlefield or borderland... and indeed Boii were displaced from Bohemia by Germanic Marcomani (note that these are also border people cause Mark is border in germanic)...where they move to "deserta of Boii"..."desert mean again border area...

why would Scordisci be Ser Boii?I except for being exactly (southeast of Boii) as where one would expect Ser Boii?

because -isci is just celtic ending and has no meaning for core name...
because 'Sc' i just 'S' same as in Sclaveni
because with previous two its Scordisci -> Sordi
and we know that Serdi is tribal name of people who moved from area of Scordisci to Thrace and became thracanized...So Serdi may have been original..prior to getting celticized form and being written down by Romans or Greeks...
or was it Serbi?

after all if we have in Nepal the Sherpa people that dance circle dance (their word for dance is 'sharwu') alike Serbian "kolo" and call their military leader 'serdar' same as Serbs did, and who have R1a and E1b that merged several thousands year ago, where could have this ancient merging of R1a and E1b happened except in Balkans, in Serbia, or alternatively nearby in Asia minor with candidates being Lydia (ljudi = people in Serbian) with its town Sardis and people named Mushki (mushki = males in Serbian)..think here also of word Moesia (ancient name for Serbia and north Boulgaria) as related to Asia minor tribe Mushki?

As for I2a if one wonders if it is Croat related....I do not think so... I2a is not spread in northwest Germany....i think its origin is around north and west coasts of Black sea and it spread into Balkans when Cimmerians were forced by Scythians (R1b people in my opinion) to move away from there...I think elite of Cimmerians did origin from Sumerians and ordinary people were local I2a (ancient Greeks write about ancient movement of Syrian people across Caucasus and they also write about Syrians = Sumerians and about white Syrians in Kappadokia..while other sources mention Cimmerians in Kappadokia) ...hence a possibility why Cimmerians would be easily merged into Serbs is that they could have culturally derived origin from Sumerians and from their goddess Sarpanit/Zerbanit ...

notice in white Syrians the same "white" naming pattern for northwest most part of land..as for Serbs, Russians (Belarus = white Russia, belo = white), Croats ....i explain it with religion dedicated to light (Zora/Danica is dawn goddess, Sarpanit as well)...white light is night light, hence northwest area is white area like Belarus.. Sarpanit had as it mark crescent (we call it "srpanj" in serbian) and was related to Venus.....look at coat of arms of Serbs...its left and right crescent mirrored around horizontal axis.... why left and right...because it is crescent but it is not Moon..it is Venus...Venus we can see like left and right crescent....Venus is planet that announced day.. same like with it associated dawn goddess did...
In my opinion, goddes Sarpanit was known as Ishara to Syrians, Tanit to Phoenicians, Asher to Israelites, Aushrine to Balts, Ishtar on middle east, Ostara to Germanic people. Asura/ Danu in Sanskrit and Irish (similar to Serbian Zora/Danica), Isis to Egyptians, and Eos to Greeks (PIE form would Ausos)... note that names Ostara and Ishtar are based on word for star....while we in Serbia always say zvezda (star) Danica and zvezda Danica plays still important role in our preserved poetry and collective memory...
I will skip obvious explanations that Ostrogoths (Heruli and Scirri) are Ostara's Goths and why Austria has its name Austria...this doesnot necesserilly mean that Scirii and Heruli were Serbs and Croats (although Letopis popa Dukljanina claims them to be Goths), we are speaking here about old PIE religion and culture shared between many Indo-European countries...













So Celts and Germanics are Slavs, in fine?
I have not the time juts now to examine (and refute?) all your comparison of ancient names and words.
Just some: Rhône: the 'H' is a mystery to me, surely an heritage of greek; the most credible hypothesis is a greek origine based upon'rhodan-' (meaning unkown to me) - the czech name Hron implies a root *gron-
your Boii/boj/voj/pa demonstration is not convincing at all... Others forumers played the same party before, based on some phonetic ressemblances between names separated by long time and long distances sometimes...
I don't know hat R1b and E1 are coming to do here, but I think Y-R1a in Southeastern France has more to do with Burgundians than with Slavs of any sort. The genetic link could exists with Slavs (contacts between them and Eastern Germanics) but you cannot find links in langage, toponyms, anthroponyms or hydronyms.
No offense, trying is not a sin.

Artmar
06-05-16, 13:57
What about Norse R1-A1?
To which branch is closer,to R1A-M458 or to R1A-Z280?
Or to neither?
To neither. It's related with both on an upstream level of Z282. No SNP was found to place any of those branches closer to each other yetand probably wouldn't be in future.

Tomenable
09-05-16, 21:52
Germans - Niemcy are people who can't speak , pol. - niemy - mute persons.

Not necessarily.

It is also possible, that the name Niemcy comes from the tribe of Nemetes / Nemeti:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemetes

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemeti

The oldest confirmed use of the name Niemcy (for Germans) is from "Life of St. Methodius" - a 9th century source. "Life of St. Methodius" cited the words of Great Moravian Duke Rostislav (840-870) spoken to Byzantine Emperor Michael III (842-867).

In that talk between Rostislav and Michael, the former mentioned "Niemcy" (Germans).

The_Lyonnist
10-06-16, 18:40
What's the dominant subclade in France (Burgundians)?

MaxCRO
03-07-16, 14:35
I can't seem to find link on the study from the OP.

It would be interesting to find where the Croatian samples were taken , because I doubt such dominance of M-458 subclade among Croats.

Garrick
15-07-16, 02:22
I can't seem to find link on the study from the OP.

It would be interesting to find where the Croatian samples were taken , because I doubt such dominance of M-458 subclade among Croats.

If graph: http://s29.postimg.org/n8pi0uko7/Graph_Clades.png is accurate there is big difference in R1a between Serbs and Croats.

However, Serbs and Croats are similar, and it is logical that ratio of R1a Z280 to R1a 458 is similar at Serbs and Croats.

Therefore it is possible something is wrong with samples, it can be useful that someone contact authors.

Dinarid
15-07-16, 03:51
It seems like R1a-Z280 is associated with the northern Black Sea and Balkans and thus has a similar distribution I2a1.

RajvoSa
03-11-17, 00:53
I have a question.

Is R1a-M458 original Slavic haplogroup or is imported by somebody else?

Edward_J
03-11-17, 14:40
My Slovenian line is under R1a-Z280, if that helps at all. They are from Northwestern Slovenia.

LeBrok
03-11-17, 17:14
I have a question.

Is R1a-M458 original Slavic haplogroup or is imported by somebody else? We don't know that yet. Just suppositions, and waiting for samples from old slavic graves. Give it a year or two.

Dibran
03-11-17, 23:28
We don't know that yet. Just suppositions, and waiting for samples from old slavic graves. Give it a year or two.

Really? Are we sure? Because, on anthro and other sites, including ftdna admins, they are certain it’s Slavic.

Here om Eupedia, I have seen the umbrella term by many and Maciamo as Germano-Slavic.

Some say say it was Lusatian but who were they? Many claim Lusatians were Slavs.

I am no call for M458 on LivingDNA and predicted M458>YP515> 40 percents unknown clades by FTDNA. Admin suspects I form a founder affect of an unknown branch under M458. Possibly dubbed an Albanian branch given my only match is a Albanian from Gostivar with a predicted TMRCA of 1000 years. My y12 matches are scattered from western to Eastern Europe. Most of which are in Germany with TMRCA of 1800-3400 years with all my y12 matches.

The admin claims the only 2 scenarios are Goth or great migration slav into Byzantium.

I am doing Yelite with FGC so I will know the actual assignment in January. The. Upload to Yfull.

Sile
04-11-17, 02:19
Really? Are we sure? Because, on anthro and other sites, including ftdna admins, they are certain it’s Slavic.

Here om Eupedia, I have seen the umbrella term by many and Maciamo as Germano-Slavic.

Some say say it was Lusatian but who were they? Many claim Lusatians were Slavs.

I am no call for M458 on LivingDNA and predicted M458>YP515> 40 percents unknown clades by FTDNA. Admin suspects I form a founder affect of an unknown branch under M458. Possibly dubbed an Albanian branch given my only match is a Albanian from Gostivar with a predicted TMRCA of 1000 years. My y12 matches are scattered from western to Eastern Europe. Most of which are in Germany with TMRCA of 1800-3400 years with all my y12 matches.

The admin claims the only 2 scenarios are Goth or great migration slav into Byzantium.

I am doing Yelite with FGC so I will know the actual assignment in January. The. Upload to Yfull.

Gambitus states they are balts and the remnants got absorbed into firstly Germanic and later into slavic once the slavs moved in many centuries later

Dibran
07-12-17, 01:17
We don't know that yet. Just suppositions, and waiting for samples from old slavic graves. Give it a year or two.

Gambitus states they are balts and the remnants got absorbed into firstly Germanic and later into slavic once the slavs moved in many centuries later

Do you have sources?

howyesno
05-02-18, 17:34
lets first focus on pre-Slavic waves of R1a

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a.gif https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/UrnfieldCulture.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/Map_Corded_Ware_culture-en.svg/640px-Map_Corded_Ware_culture-en.svg.png
in my opinion first spread of R1a was Corded ware (circa 2900 BCE – circa 2350 BCE)...it went northwards and merged with I1 and I2a2 to give proto-germanic..southern part resulted in Urnfield and poshed border of R1a spread to south west and remained living there for 1000 years
that is why spread of R1a have same western borders as Urnfield culture (. 1300 BC – 750 BC)...

In my opinion Hallstat happens when R1b proto Celts get to rule over R1a Urnfield settlements...
this is why there is west (probably dominant R1b) and east hallstat (still dominant R1a)


Two culturally distinct areas, an eastern and a western zone are generally recognised.[35] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture#cite_note-35) There are distinctions in burial rites, the types of grave goods (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grave_goods), and in artistic style. In the western zone, members of the elite were buried with sword (HaC) or dagger (HaD), in the eastern zone with an axe.[24] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture#cite_note-Megaw,_30-24) The western zone has chariot burials (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot_burial). In the eastern zone, warriors are frequently buried with helmet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmet) and a plate armour (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_armour) breastplate.[23] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture#cite_note-Megaw,_34-23) Artistic subjects with a narrative component are only found in the east, in both pottery and metalwork.[36] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture#cite_note-36) In the east the settlements and cemeteries can be larger than in the west.[24] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture#cite_note-Megaw,_30-24)

The approximate division line between the two subcultures runs from north to south through central Bohemia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemia) and Lower Austria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Austria) at about 14 to 15 degrees eastern longitude, and then traces the eastern and southern rim of the Alps to Eastern and Southern Tyrol (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Tyrol).[citation needed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]

Eastern Hallstatt zone

The eastern Hallstatt zone includes:


eastern Austria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria): Lower Austria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Austria), Upper Styria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Styria)
eastern Czech Republic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_Republic): Moravia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravia)
southwestern Slovakia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovakia): Danubian Lowland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danubian_Lowland)
western Hungary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary): Little Hungarian Plain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Hungarian_Plain)
eastern Slovenia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovenia): Hallstatt Archaeological Site in Vače (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_Archaeological_Site_in_Va%C4%8De) (at the border between Lower Styria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Styria) and Lower Carniola (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Carniola) regions), Novo Mesto (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novo_Mesto#History)
northern Croatia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia): Hrvatsko Zagorje (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrvatsko_Zagorje), Istria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istria)
northern and central Serbia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia)
parts of southwestern Poland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland)




note that east Hallstat is now mostly Slavic area...
we know that Jordanes says Slavi and Antes are biggest tribes remaining from once numerous Veneti race, implying Veneti is proto-Slavic and thus proto-Slavic was numerous race..so it rules out 6th century expansion from small area...

if the name Sloveni is old for part of proto-Slavic population and people..we could expect that name to be used already in east Hallstatt

godess Sulevia in east Hallstatt couild have been Slavia

In ancient Celtic religion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_polytheism), Sulevia was a goddess worshipped in Gaul (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaul), Britain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Britain), and Galicia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Spain)),[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suleviae#cite_note-1) very often in the plural forms Suleviae or (dative) Sule(v)is. Dedications to Sulevia(e) are attested in about forty inscriptions, distributed quite widely in the Celtic world, but with particular concentrations in Noricum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noricum), among the Helvetii (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helvetii), along the Rhine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine), and also in Rome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome).

and tribe Salluvi in southeast France could have been Slavi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salyes

presence of proto-Slavs in east Hallstatt gives possibility that slavic name for germanic people Nemci could have been derived from tribal name Nemetes that was also situated in east Hallstatt

Bachus
09-02-18, 09:12
At "Serbian DNA project" there is a 293 people which are R1a.

211 are Z280, which means that Z280 is 72% of total R1a.


http://dnk.poreklo.rs/tabela-pojedinacne-grupe/?grp-filter=R1a

Bachus
09-02-18, 09:24
[QUOTE=Tomenable;458125]And modern dominant haplogroups by country for comparison - R1b is pink here (while R1a is red like before):

http://s4.postimg.org/kji3ibznx/Dominant_YDNA.png[/Q
UOTE]

I2a is the strongest in Croatia and E-V13 is the strongest in Bulgaria.

Dibran
09-02-18, 20:09
[QUOTE=Tomenable;458125]And modern dominant haplogroups by country for comparison - R1b is pink here (while R1a is red like before):

http://s4.postimg.org/kji3ibznx/Dominant_YDNA.png[/Q
UOTE]

I2a is the strongest in Croatia and E-V13 is the strongest in Bulgaria.


Sorry but you're wrong. E-V13 is strongest in Albanians as far as the Balkans is concerned. Especially Kosovars. Greeks and Bulgarians would probably be next on that list. No way V13 is strongest in Bulgaria.

Bachus
09-02-18, 22:01
[QUOTE=Bachus;532013]


Sorry but you're wrong. E-V13 is strongest in Albanians as far as the Balkans is concerned. Especially Kosovars. Greeks and Bulgarians would probably be next on that list. No way V13 is strongest in Bulgaria.

Bulgaria

E-V13 - 23,5%

I2 - 20%

R1a - 17%

R1b - ​11%


https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Dibran
09-02-18, 22:42
[QUOTE=Dibran;532063]

Bulgaria

E-V13 - 23,5%

I2 - 20%

R1a - 17%

R1b - ​11%


https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Kosovars have 35-45 percent E-V13, and Albanians between 28-36 roughly. My point stands.

eastara
09-02-18, 22:56
The E-V13 among Bulgarians is in fact 18%, Eupedia shows everything under E1b1b1. The rest are other branches under M78 and M123.
Although not with the highest percentage V13 on the Balkans, Bulgarians show the highest diversity. Albanians, especially have a strong founder effect under V13 and not many subbranches are discovered so far among them.
Bulgarians show maybe an equal split between R1a M458 and Z280. There are a few cases of Z93, which are not connected to recent Turkic branches and could be potentially remnants of the Bronze age Z93 found on the Balkans in the latest study "The Genomic History Of Southeastern Europe".

Bachus
09-02-18, 22:57
[QUOTE=Bachus;532088]

Kosovars have 35-45 percent E-V13, and Albanians between 28-36 roughly. My point stands.

I know that Albanians have more E-V13 than Bulgarians, but E-V13 i also the strongest haplogroup among Bulgarians (stronger than I2a and R1a).

Bulgarians have the most peleo-Balkanic (aka Vlach) influence of all south Slavs, even more than Macedonians.

kuzmosi
11-02-18, 21:42
It seems Hungary is an R1a dominant country, (but slavic language countries, Serbia, Bulgaria isn't). Maybe Hungary is the link with the south slavs and the other slavic countries. I know, many slavic settlement were in Hungary from the time of the Kingdom of the Gepids, during the Avar Age and they still lived here when the hungarian tribes arrived. Do anyone know the hungarian R1a distribution?

One of the R1a families in Hungary: My mother's father was R1a-M458-L260-YP415. The family name is: Kalenyák, religion:greek-catholic, ethnicity: rusin (ruthenian), origin: polish? vislyan? white croat? Lived: Penészlek, Szatmár county, Hungary. Before the family came from Mikó (today: Mikova, northeast Slovakia, next to the polish border) at early 1700s.

I would like to know more about the YP415 subclade. Can anyone help me?

hrvat22
12-02-18, 09:42
It seems Hungary is an R1a dominant country, (but slavic language countries, Serbia, Bulgaria isn't). Maybe Hungary is the link with the south slavs and the other slavic countries. I know, many slavic settlement were in Hungary from the time of the Kingdom of the Gepids, during the Avar Age and they still lived here when the hungarian tribes arrived. Do anyone know the hungarian R1a distribution? De administrando imperio.
From Croats who came to Dalmatia, one part separated, and occupied Illyricum (Illurikon) and Panonian (Pannonian),https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PannoniaMany Croats fleeing from the Turks to Hungary, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horv%C3%A1thVery likely part of R1a and I2a subclades that exist in Hungary are and Croatian origin, in any case in the future we know is that true.

kuzmosi
12-02-18, 15:00
hrvat22!

You maybe right. In West Hungary (Transdanubia) lived at this time about 80.000 croatian, and more croatian descent. But my family lived northeast Hungary for centuries. Among my 8 great-great grandfathers Y bloodlines 1 R1a-L260-Yp415, as I wrote, and two more I2A-L621. One S17250-A1328+, but negative all known subclade, and another one is not finished yet. They were all rusin (ruthenian) descendants from the Northeast Carpathian mountains.

I think our common ancestors with the croatians, were the white croatians from todays southeast Poland and southeast Ukraina. At the VI.-VII. century, some of the white croatians moved south, to the Drava-Sava valley, later the Adriatic coast, (croatians) but the sons, who stay home, later become rusins, and some of them later become hungarians (like my 3 great-great grandfathers) One thing is sure. We have a closer common ancestor with the R1a lines, as in the EV-13 line.

hrvat22
12-02-18, 18:40
hrvat22!You maybe right. In West Hungary (Transdanubia) lived at this time about 80.000 croatian, and more croatian descent. But my family lived northeast Hungary for centuries. Among my 8 great-great grandfathers Y bloodlines 1 R1a-L260-Yp415, as I wrote, and two more I2A-L621. One S17250-A1328+, but negative all known subclade, and another one is not finished yet. They were all rusin (ruthenian) descendants from the Northeast Carpathian mountains.I think our common ancestors with the croatians, were the white croatians from todays southeast Poland and southeast Ukraina. At the VI.-VII. century, some of the white croatians moved south, to the Drava-Sava valley, later the Adriatic coast, (croatians) but the sons, who stay home, later become rusins, and some of them later become hungarians (like my 3 great-great grandfathers) One thing is sure. We have a closer common ancestor with the R1a lines, as in the EV-13 line.Vlachs comes and to Carpathian area so you have to look which haplotypes and branches Rusyns have and then we be able to bring some conclusion. These haplotypes that you mentione are not typical for today's Croats so wee need to see a wider genetic picture for Rusyns population.

kuzmosi
12-02-18, 19:23
Absolutely true. I know 8 R1a-YP415 family at this time. 5 from Poland, (most of them south poland) 2 from the USA, and my mothers family from Hungary. But nobody from the Balkan, or other pieces of the World. The common ancestor lived 1700 Years before present. He must be a member of a slavic tribe. Maybe he was vislyan, or proto-vislyan.

But the I2A-A1328 is more common among the slavs. I know at this time 12 families. 1 from Russia (Tula), 1 from Bashkiria, 2 from Belarus, 2 from Ukraina, 1 from Poland, 1 from Slovenia, 3 from Bosnia (from Botajica, Maricka, and Bosanski Petrovac, I think they all are serbs), and my ancestor family from Nyírbéltek, northeast Hungary. I think this is a very typical proto-slav branch.