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Maleth
11-01-15, 07:02
might have brought E-V13 (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#M78) from North Africa to Iberia, Italy and Greece

This is a brand new theory for me. Since I am always willing to learn, I am very interested to know how someone might even consider such a theory. So E-V13 entered via (todays) Morocco to later disappear there? How does it work exactly?

Maciamo
11-01-15, 10:23
This is a brand new theory for me. Since I am always willing to learn, I am very interested to know how someone might even consider such a theory. So E-V13 entered via (todays) Morocco to later disappear there? How does it work exactly?

Brand new ? But I wrote about this on the E1b1b page (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#ice_age) nearly two years ago.

Maleth
11-01-15, 12:01
Brand new ? But I wrote about this on the E1b1b page (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#ice_age) nearly two years ago.

I was aware of that thanks. It was an interesting read, however how its explained in the latest article(genetics of British Isles) mentioning Iberia followed by Italy thenGreece gives the impression that E-V13 has entered to Iberia first(which would be via today's Morocco). E-V13 is even rarer there then Libya or Egypt (which are only 1% anyway). (I know you never said that but its the impression of the sequence of the geographical areas). In your article for E1b1b you make a clear distinction between M-81 and E-V13

quoting:-A third wave in the late glacial period (17,000-12,000 years ago) might have brought E-V13 (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#M78) from North Africa to Iberia, Italy and Greece, while J2b (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml)expanded from Anatolia to the southern Balkans. Haplogroup R1a (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml) would have arrived from Siberia to eastern Europe following the end of the last glaciation. end of quote


Regarding the theory of E-V13 arriving to the Islands across the waters from North Africa from Egypt or Libya has very little proof if any. If there is any kind of solid evidence I will be very happy to be guided to see how anyone can consider such a theory. Most of the 1% E-V13 found in Libya (mostly in Jewish populations) and Egypt had a long history of Greek settlement and influence in Egypt. And up till now no ancient E-V13dna has been found in north Africa older then that of Spain and Tessaly (and Anatolia if I’m not mistaken).

bicicleur
11-01-15, 12:17
Brand new ? But I wrote about this on the E1b1b page (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#ice_age) nearly two years ago.

the problem with that is that coalesence time for E-M81 seems to be very young - only a few thousand years
there are 106 known SNP for E-L19 and 131 for E-M81, but only 10 downstream of E-M81

arrival via Gibraltar seems very likely, but paleolithic/mesolithic not
the problem is there are no archeological traces which one would expect in this case

Maciamo
11-01-15, 12:51
the problem with that is that coalesence time for E-M81 seems to be very young - only a few thousand years
there are 106 known SNP for E-L19 and 131 for E-M81, but only 10 downstream of E-M81

arrival via Gibraltar seems very likely, but paleolithic/mesolithic not
the problem is there are no archeological traces which one would expect in this case

I have noticed that too recently. That's why I removed any mention of E-M81 in the new page about the British Isles, and only mentioned E-V13. I will edit the E1b1b page now.

Maciamo
11-01-15, 13:13
I was aware of that thanks. It was an interesting read, however how its explained in the latest article(genetics of British Isles) mentioning Iberia followed by Italy thenGreece gives the impression that E-V13 has entered to Iberia first(which would be via today's Morocco). E-V13 is even rarer there then Libya or Egypt (which are only 1% anyway). (I know you never said that but its the impression of the sequence of the geographical areas). In your article for E1b1b you make a clear distinction between M-81 and E-V13

quoting:-A third wave in the late glacial period (17,000-12,000 years ago) might have brought E-V13 (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#M78) from North Africa to Iberia, Italy and Greece, while J2b (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml)expanded from Anatolia to the southern Balkans. Haplogroup R1a (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml) would have arrived from Siberia to eastern Europe following the end of the last glaciation. end of quote


Regarding the theory of E-V13 arriving to the Islands across the waters from North Africa from Egypt or Libya has very little proof if any. If there is any kind of solid evidence I will be very happy to be guided to see how anyone can consider such a theory. Most of the 1% E-V13 found in Libya (mostly in Jewish populations) and Egypt had a long history of Greek settlement and influence in Egypt. And up till now no ancient E-V13dna has been found in north Africa older then that of Spain and Tessaly (and Anatolia if I’m not mistaken).

That's right, E-V13 only makes up 1 or 2% of the Y-DNA in North Africa, all the way fro Egypt to Morocco. Egypt has the largest percentage of E-M78 as well as the greatest diversity, and might be the original source of all M78 subclades, including V13. Personally I think that E-V13 entered Europe through Sicily, but there could have been several routes, including along the Levantine and Anatolian coastlines to Greece, and via Gibraltar.

Considering that E-M81 arrived so late to the Maghreb but now makes over half of the lineages (> 70% in Morocco), it is undeniable that a major population replacement took place in the region after the Neolithic. E-M81's coalescence age according to the Hallast et al. (http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2014/12/13/molbev.msu327.short) paper published last month is about the same as R1b-M269, so approx. 7000 years. But since M81 probably originated in East Africa, it may only have arrived in the Maghreb about 4000 to 5000 years ago, just like R1b in Western Europe.

If we exclude E-M81 and all the haplogroups brought by the Arabs, Romans, Phoenicians, Neolithic farmers/herders (incl. R1b-V88 and some non-Arabic/Phoenician G, J1 and T), we are pretty much left only with E-M78 in North Africa. I now realise that it is not just E-V13 that would have entered Europe during the Paleolithic or Mesolithic, but any M78 subclade found in Europe, which is to say also V12, V22 and V65.

Maleth
11-01-15, 14:57
That's right, E-V13 only makes up 1 or 2% of the Y-DNA in North Africa, all the way fro Egypt to Morocco. Egypt has the largest percentage of E-M78 as well as the greatest diversity, and might be the original source of all M78 subclades, including V13. Personally I think that E-V13 entered Europe through Sicily, but there could have been several routes, including along the Levantine and Anatolian coastlines to Greece, and via Gibraltar.

Its very probable that E-M78 originated in Egypt some 18,000 BP, however V13 mutated much later (maybe some 10,000 BP). One has to see what kind of boats or rafts were available in those days to make such a crossing (into the unkown) possible. In my opinion it would have been much more natural that migrations took coastal routes in the case of E-M78 crossing to near east and beyond and E-V13 mutated in near east or Balkans proper (Due to the lack of E-V13 in present day North Africa. Also and no European Islands are visible from North Africa. (or to be more precise from Tunisia Libya or Egypt)

The artifacts found in the Maltese Islands (earliest some 7000 years ago in the 'dalam' phase have a connection with those found in Sicily. Also example Malta is visible from Sicily on a very clear day so it would have a curious site and crossing more probable (rather the other way round). On the other had in the same cave were found dwarf elephants and dear, meaning that Europe was connected to North Africa with two huge lakes on the side, but Im not sure if there were any humans migrating in and out at that time. Human remains are thought to be around 10,000 BP. I need to look at human evolution and time frames.

http://www.maltesering.com/archaeology_ghar_dalam.asp


Considering that E-M81 arrived so late to the Maghreb but now makes over half of the lineages (> 70% in Morocco), it is undeniable that a major population replacement took place in the region after the Neolithic. E-M81's coalescence age according to the Hallast et al. (http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2014/12/13/molbev.msu327.short) paper published last month is about the same as R1b-M269, so approx. 7000 years. But since M81 probably originated in East Africa, it may only have arrived in the Maghreb about 4000 to 5000 years ago, just like R1b in Western Europe.

It makes much sense that according to the pattern that E-M81 has crossed also through the straight of Gibraltar to Iberia reaching the northern part of Spain (probably there was a time when it was even closer then it is today and visible too.


If we exclude E-M81 and all the haplogroups brought by the Arabs, Romans, Phoenicians, Neolithic farmers/herders (incl. R1b-V88 and some non-Arabic/Phoenician G, J1 and T), we are pretty much left only with E-M78 in North Africa. I now realise that it is not just E-V13 that would have entered Europe during the Paleolithic or Mesolithic, but any M78 subclade found in Europe, which is to say also V12, V22 and V65.

Yes I agree but E-M78 (V12 -V13-V22) still would only make up a very small percentage (2% / 3%) compared to the dominant (over 60%) of M-310 were E-M81 stems from in North Africa. While it is odd that the oldest V-13 is actually found in Iberia Morocco itself is void of this mutation.

Maciamo
11-01-15, 15:48
Its very probable that E-M78 originated in Egypt some 18,000 BP, however V13 mutated much later (maybe some 10,000 BP). One has to see what kind of boats or rafts were available in those days to make such a crossing (into the unkown) possible. In my opinion it would have been much more natural that migrations took coastal routes in the case of E-M78 crossing to near east and beyond and E-V13 mutated in near east or Balkans proper (Due to the lack of E-V13 in present day North Africa. Also and no European Islands are visible from North Africa. (or to be more precise from Tunisia Libya or Egypt)

I wouldn't worry too much about boats. Australia was colonised between 40,000 and 70,000 years ago and it involved much more perilous sailing across Indonesia + at least 90 km by sea between Sunda and Sahul when sea levels were at their lowest. Compare to that hopping from Tunisia to Malta or Sicily is a child's play. Just look at the illegal immigrants who regularly cross on makeshift rafts, not even proper boats (of course some die while doing so, but many more make it).

Maleth
11-01-15, 17:51
I wouldn't worry too much about boats. Australia was colonised between 40,000 and 70,000 years ago and it involved much more perilous sailing across Indonesia + at least 90 km by sea between Sunda and Sahul when sea levels were at their lowest. Compare to that hopping from Tunisia to Malta or Sicily is a child's play. Just look at the illegal immigrants who regularly cross on makeshift rafts, not even proper boats (of course some die while doing so, but many more make it).

Maybe how people floated on open seas in neolithic and before could take an interesting debate of its own. We know it happened for sure as pottery and tools where already imported from regions across the sea (not found in the area) 7000 years ago. But just imagining a very small group of people without much knowledge of whats beyond and taking the plunge to sail (float) to the unknown would have been like Christopher Columbus on his mission or the Vikings a few hundred years before. We know the Phoenicians stuck to the coast as much as they could though sailing thousands of kilometers some 3000 BP years ago. Today s illegal immigrants know very well were they are heading to (as you said if they make it) but risk it anyways.........besides paying very good un taxed money to do so.

At 90km the land is visible however so curiosity would make it tempting. Thats the distance between Malta and Sicily. Its over 300km between Tunisia or Libya, but I would presume that at the end of the LGM the dry land was much more spread. (ok im curious to see maps now) And many more lands visible and maybe even connected. It all depends on how far humans would have spread by that time. But probably that would have been before the EV-13 mutation, or maybe mutated and by luck spread in particular areas away to were it was mutated, as the balkans are the only real hot spot. Remember that Sicily has a long history of settlements from the Balkans (Greek and Albanians) and its very probable that thats were its E-V13 stock is coming from. Same like South of France and coastal regions of Turkey. I can only sense at this point that E-V13 radiates from the Balkans outwords. I do my best to keep an open mind :grin:

Maciamo
11-01-15, 18:18
Maybe how people floated on open seas in neolithic and before could take an interesting debate of its own. We know it happened for sure as pottery and tools where already imported from regions across the sea (not found in the area) 7000 years ago. But just imagining a very small group of people without much knowledge of whats beyond and taking the plunge to sail (float) to the unknown would have been like Christopher Columbus on his mission or the Vikings a few hundred years before.

Not really. I expect that they were fishermen who got lost and ended up on the wrong coast.



At 90km the land is visible however so curiosity would make it tempting. Thats the distance between Malta and Sicily. Its over 300km between Tunisia or Libya, but I would presume that at the end of the LGM the dry land was much more spread.

Don't forget the small island of Pantelleria halfway between Tunisia (60 km) and Sicily (100 km). That is now. At the height of the Ice Age it would be less than half that distance. Since we are discussing it, I checked it up and there was actually a land bridge uniting Malta, Sicily and Calabria into a single land mass.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/45/05/2c/45052c50a4634109c3b175523b9716db.jpg

Regarding Australia, I read that the shortest distance from Indonesia (which was a single unified island known as Sahul back then) was 90 km at the height of the Ice Age, but it is now over 500 km.

bicicleur
11-01-15, 23:22
Regarding Australia, I read that the shortest distance from Indonesia (which was a single unified island known as Sahul back then) was 90 km at the height of the Ice Age, but it is now over 500 km.

49000 years ago people were in the Ivane Valley, New Guinea
40000 years ago they reached Buka Island, a crossing over more than 140 km open seas
32000 years ago, they reached the Solomon Islands, 600 km east of New Guinea

In the Mediterranean Cyprus was reached first time 13000 years ago, as well as the Island Melos in the Aegean.
Later there was the spread along the Mediterranean via Cardium Ware ... G2a

But for E-V13 I see another problem ..
Before neolithic people arrived (probably G2a and F) 8000 years ago, the area between the Danube and the Aegean coastal areas were uninhabited.
The tribes in the Aegean coastal areas lived there allready since the LGM (20000 years ago)
I realy don't think E-V13 arrived in the Balkans prior to the neolithic.
In Italy, TMRCA time for G2a is about 8000 years, but for all other Y-haplos it is much, much later. So I don't think E-V13 was present in Italy either.

My guess : there was E-V13 in Anatolia, but it didn't spread there. There was 1 lucky E-V13 tribe that arived in the Balkans much later and started to spread from there.

Maleth
12-01-15, 01:14
Don't forget the small island of Pantelleria halfway between Tunisia (60 km) and Sicily (100 km). That is now. At the height of the Ice Age it would be less than half that distance. Since we are discussing it, I checked it up and there was actually a land bridge uniting Malta, Sicily and Calabria into a single land mass.

But that is still going to leave us with a dilemma. Lets do some simple reasoning. If E-M81 is so abundant in North Africa (at the present day) and also found from such an old age in Iberia, why should not E-V13 not have the same patterns and numbers in North Africa? Why is one so obvious and the other is not? Is just a lucky tribe kinda of answer who ended up in Balkans enough making lots of babies there die off completely were it was mutated?. I will not stop repeating the obvious :). The tiny 1% found in north Africa is clearly an obvious import from the balkans. It is well known that many Greeks settled in Egypt in the classical era and beyond. And most of E-V13 found in Libya in mostly amongst Jews. Morocco is void of E-V13.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks_in_Egypt

Maleth
12-01-15, 01:34
If we believe Maghreb folklore, which states they originated in modern kuwait and travelled west into North-africa ( maghreb means west in arabic ), then what else did they bring apart from their E marker?

Oh well well Sile, you also said that E-V13 was exported from Cyrene in Libya to the Balkans! when Cyrene was a greek founded city due to over population in Greece.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Sile http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=443847#post443847)
I read E-V13 came via cyrene in North-Africa, a high trading area later on with the ancient Greekshttp://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/satisfied.gif



Again as this article shows the E-V13 input in north Africa is an export from the Balkans and not the other way round. Also as clearly studies shows that e-v13 is rare in the region. - Next theory please? http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/rolleyes.gif

Cyrene owes its birth to a Greek Island named Thera (http://www.ancient.eu/thera/) in ancient times and which today is known as Santorini, located in the Southern Aegean (http://www.ancient.eu/aegean/) Sea. As a result of the rise in population that took place in the Greek world during the 8th and 7th century BCE, the Therans became concerned about the effects of overpopulation and dispatched an expedition to the North African region

http://www.ancient.eu/cyrene/

And what prompted the Kuwaitis to move to the Maghreb? fire and brimstone? :grin: and why E-V13 is 1% in the Maghreb? and why Kuwaitis have so such a low percentage of E-V13 :grin:. Teach me.....Im willing to learn

Sile
12-01-15, 01:45
[QUOTE=Maleth;448021]Oh well well Sile, you also said that E-V13 was exported from Cyrene in Libya to the Balkans! when Cyrene was a greek founded city due to over population in Greece.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Sile http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=443847#post443847)
I read E-V13 came via cyrene in North-Africa, a high trading area later on with the ancient Greekshttp://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/satisfied.gif



Again as this article shows the E-V13 input in north Africa is an export from the Balkans and not the other way round. Also as clearly studies shows that e-v13 is rare in the region. - Next theory please? http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/rolleyes.gif

Cyrene owes its birth to a Greek Island named Thera (http://www.ancient.eu/thera/) in ancient times and which today is known as Santorini, located in the Southern Aegean (http://www.ancient.eu/aegean/) Sea. As a result of the rise in population that took place in the Greek world during the 8th and 7th century BCE, the Therans became concerned about the effects of overpopulation and dispatched an expedition to the North African region

http://www.ancient.eu/cyrene/


thats correct, Santorini ( santa Irena ) , is older in markers than that of albanian E-v13, so logical trail can be med. islands, via cyrene to the south adriatic............its not the other way around, can it !


you cyrene link is useless it only from 800BC



And what prompted the Kuwaitis to move to the Maghreb? fire and brimstone? :grin: and why E-V13 is 1% in the Maghreb? and why Kuwaitis have so such a low percentage of E-V13 :grin:. Teach me.....Im willing to learn

Maghreb has no E-v13, why bring it up ?.....i was talking about E-m78

Maleth
12-01-15, 02:02
Maghreb has no E-v13, why bring it up ?.....i was talking about E-m78

Maghreb dna E-M81 does not stem from E-78. and anyway from my part I have made my point in relation to E-V13. This thread is about The genetic history of the British Isles. I said enough

7012


My guess : there was E-V13 in Anatolia, but it didn't spread there. There was 1 lucky E-V13 tribe that arived in the Balkans much later and started to spread from there.

This is a much more plausible as a theory in my opinion, personally I am not excluding that E-V13 could have also been mutated in the Balkan itself, But with present test methods unless greatly improved its going to take much more time to get a clear picture.

Maciamo
12-01-15, 13:53
But that is still going to leave us with a dilemma. Lets do some simple reasoning. If E-M81 is so abundant in North Africa (at the present day) and also found from such an old age in Iberia, why should not E-V13 not have the same patterns and numbers in North Africa? Why is one so obvious and the other is not? Is just a lucky tribe kinda of answer who ended up in Balkans enough making lots of babies there die off completely were it was mutated?. I will not stop repeating the obvious :). The tiny 1% found in north Africa is clearly an obvious import from the balkans. It is well known that many Greeks settled in Egypt in the classical era and beyond. And most of E-V13 found in Libya in mostly amongst Jews. Morocco is void of E-V13.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks_in_Egypt

Simple chronology. In Paleolithic and Mesolithic central and northern Europe, haplogroups C1a2, F and I were abundant, yet the two first virtually disappeared because Neolithic newcomers brought G2a and had vastly more offspring thanks to agriculture. Only the few I subclades that adapted and joined G2a agricultural communities prospered (mostly I1 and I2a1). Then Bronze Age invaders came with new male lineages (R1a, R1b, J2) and killed the aboriginal men, or over-reproduced compared to them, so that even Neolithic lineages fell into a meagre minority. Once again, only those who joined the new invaders prospered (Germanic I1 and Slavic I2a1b), while others dwindled (I2a1a, G2a) apart in a few secluded pockets (Sardinia, Pyrenees, Alps).

Similar scenario in North Africa but with other haplogroups:

1) Paleolithic and Mesolithic hunter-gatherers were E-M78 belonging to various subclades V12, V13, V22 or V65 depending on the region.

2) Neolithic herders came in two waves : R1b-V88 with cattle and J1+T1a with goats. G2 cereal farmers in some regions only (esp. in Egypt). Very different situation from central/northern Europe. In North Africa and the Mediterranean Europe, the landscape is much more mountainous, which is better suited to herding than cereal farming, which is why J1 and T are much more common around the Mediterranean (+ Alps and Carpathians) than in flat regions of Europe. However herding doesn't provide as much of food surplus as cereals, so the herders' population grow more slowly compared to hunter-gatherers. Besides domesticated animals can be stolen, and raids have always been common in herding societies, be it in Highland Scotland a few centuries ago or in Ethiopia or the Sahel today. As a result, hunter-gatherers can become herders easily too and more native HG lineages survive (E-M78 in both Mediterranean Europe and North Africa).

3) Bronze Age invaders come, kill local men, seize political power, get harems and monopolise women available for reproduction. Their Y-DNA rise suddenly. Apparently this is what happened with E-M81, but I don't know exactly how. They might have been part of the Afroasiatic expansion, which also brought E-M84 to the Middle East (Proto-Semitic branch). E-M81 would have been the Proto-Berber branch, which could have spread anytime between 5000 and 1000 BCE. The Phoenicians (J1, J2a, G2, E-M84, R1b-L23, R1a-Z93, Q1b) also had an impact on the coastal Maghreb, but they were merchants more than military conquerors, so they didn't make a point to exterminate local men.

4) Roman colonisation : only minor genetic impact.

5) Arabic conquest : major population replacement, especially through the paternal line due to the institutionalisation of polygamy and vast harems for the ruling class (mostly J1-P58).



So why is E-V13 more common in Europe than North Africa today ? For three main reasons:

A) Due to a founder effect in the population that migrated from North Africa to Europe (a small group that had more V13 than average).

B) E-V13 survives mostly in places where Indo-Europeans arrived late and had a much smaller impact than in the rest of Europe, i.e. Iberia (R1b spread very slowly from 1800 to 1000 BCE), Italy (Italics only entered from 1200 BCE, but didn't reach the south until c. 500 BCE), southern Balkans (early entry of R1b but region already heavily populated and difficulty to Indo-Europeanise locals, as attested by the numerous pre-IE vocabulary in Albanian and Greek).

C) Europe didn't have the Arabic conquest (except Iberia, Malta and Sicily). Note how E-V13 survived better in the mountains of central Sicily than in coastal regions battered by waves of medieval invaders (Vandals, Normans, Saracens).

Maleth
12-01-15, 18:55
So why is E-V13 more common in Europe than North Africa today ? For three main reasons:

A) Due to a founder effect in the population that migrated from North Africa to Europe (a small group that had more V13 than average).

Im not being sarcastic or anything, but what has happened to the information of these papers? are they absolete now and the North Africa migration of E-V13 to europe is taking over? if it is were can i find scientific documents about it? I am really interested.



Cavalli Sforza says Haplogroup E1b1b1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)), mainly in the form of its E1b1b1a2 (E-V13) sub-clade reaches frequencies above 40% around the area ofKosovo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo).[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe#cite_note-31) This clade is thought to have arrived in Europe from western Asia either in the later Mesolithic,[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe#cite_note-32) or the Neolithic.[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe#cite_note-cruciani2004-33)



Battagliaet al Concerningtiming the distribution and diversity of V13 however,Battagliaet al. (2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe#CITEREFBattaglia_et_al.2 008))proposed an earlier movement whereby the E-M78* lineage ancestral toall modern E-V13 men moved rapidly out of a Southern Egyptianhomeland and arrived in Europe with only Mesolithic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesolithic)technologies.They then suggest that the E-V13 sub-clade of E-M78 only expandedsubsequently as native Balkan 'foragers-cum-farmers' adoptedNeolithic technologies from the Near East. They propose that thefirst major dispersal of E-V13 from the Balkans may have been in thedirection of the AdriaticSea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Sea) withthe Neolithic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic)ImpressedWare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardium_Pottery)cultureoften referred to as Impressa or Cardial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardium_Pottery). Peričicet al. (2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe#CITEREFPeri.C4.8Dic_et_a l.2005)),rather propose that the main route of E-V13 spread was along theVardar-Morava-Danube river 'highway' system.
Incontrast to Battaglia, Crucianiet al. (2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe#CITEREFCruciani_et_al.20 07))tentatively suggested (i) a different point where the V13 mutationhappened on its way from Egypt to the Balkans via the Middle East,and (ii) a later dispersal time.



Morerecently, Lacanet al. (2011 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe#CITEREFLacanKayserRicaut Brucato2011))announced that a 7000 year old skeleton in a Neolithic context in aSpanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens testedfrom the same site were in haplogroupG2a (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_G2a_(Y-DNA)&action=edit&redlink=1),which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not themodern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recentevents, E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic, carried byearly farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the WesternMediterranean, much earlier than the Bronze age. This supports theproposals of Battaglia et al. rather than Cruciani et al. at leastconcerning earliest European dispersals, but E-V13 may have dispersedmore than once. Even more recent than the Bronze Age, it has alsobeen proposed that modern E-V13's modern distribution in Europe is atleast partly caused by Roman era movements of people.[86] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe#cite_note-Bird_2007-86) (Seebelow.)


Afteran initial focus upon E1b1b as a Neolithic marker, a more recentstudy in January 2010, looked at Y haplogroup R1b1b, which is muchmore common in WesternEurope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe).Mark Jobling said: "We focused on the commonest Y-chromosomelineage in Europe, carried by about 110 million men, it follows agradient from south-east to north-west, reaching almost 100%frequency in Ireland. We looked at how the lineage is distributed,how diverse it is in different parts of Europe, and how old it is."The results suggested that the lineage R1b1b2(R-M269) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)),like E1b1b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)) or J (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J_(Y-DNA)) lineages,spread together with farming from the Near East. Dr PatriciaBalaresque added: "In total, this means that more than 80% ofEuropean Y chromosomes descend from incoming farmers. In contrast,most maternal genetic lineages seem to descend from hunter-gatherers.To us, this suggests a reproductive advantage for farming males overindigenous hunter-gatherer males during the switch from hunting andgathering, to farming"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe

None of these mention a crossing from North Africa more and more Libya.




C) Europe didn't have the Arabic conquest (except Iberia, Malta and Sicily). Note how E-V13 survived better in the mountains of central Sicily than in coastal regions battered by waves of medieval invaders (Vandals, Normans, Saracens).

How do we know that E-V13 survived in the Mountains? The highest E-V13 concentration is in the Norman founded town of Piazza Armenia besides its more evident in the eastern part of Sicily which was Greek dominated since antiquity. It is not known that there were any great settlement from invaders in Sicily except for the installation of Garrisons and the immediate minimal ripple effect that will bring with it. Example the British were in Malta for 200 years but the genetic impact (British surnames (as its difficlut to suss out through DNA) would only have some 2% on the present day gene pool. It wasn't much different during past eras. Dont think that there were some mass migrations and settlements from all people that invade a country and somehow present DNA results prove that too.

Maciamo
12-01-15, 21:04
Im not being sarcastic or anything, but what has happened to the information of these papers? are they absolete now and the North Africa migration of E-V13 to europe is taking over? if it is were can i find scientific documents about it? I am really interested.



Cavalli Sforza says Haplogroup E1b1b1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)), mainly in the form of its E1b1b1a2 (E-V13) sub-clade reaches frequencies above 40% around the area ofKosovo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo).[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe#cite_note-31) This clade is thought to have arrived in Europe from western Asia either in the later Mesolithic,[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe#cite_note-32) or the Neolithic.[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe#cite_note-cruciani2004-33)



Battagliaet al Concerningtiming the distribution and diversity of V13 however,Battagliaet al. (2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe#CITEREFBattaglia_et_al.2 008))proposed an earlier movement whereby the E-M78* lineage ancestral toall modern E-V13 men moved rapidly out of a Southern Egyptianhomeland and arrived in Europe with only Mesolithic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesolithic)technologies.They then suggest that the E-V13 sub-clade of E-M78 only expandedsubsequently as native Balkan 'foragers-cum-farmers' adoptedNeolithic technologies from the Near East. They propose that thefirst major dispersal of E-V13 from the Balkans may have been in thedirection of the AdriaticSea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Sea) withthe Neolithic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic)ImpressedWare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardium_Pottery)cultureoften referred to as Impressa or Cardial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardium_Pottery). Peričicet al. (2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe#CITEREFPeri.C4.8Dic_et_a l.2005)),rather propose that the main route of E-V13 spread was along theVardar-Morava-Danube river 'highway' system.
Incontrast to Battaglia, Crucianiet al. (2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe#CITEREFCruciani_et_al.20 07))tentatively suggested (i) a different point where the V13 mutationhappened on its way from Egypt to the Balkans via the Middle East,and (ii) a later dispersal time.



Morerecently, Lacanet al. (2011 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe#CITEREFLacanKayserRicaut Brucato2011))announced that a 7000 year old skeleton in a Neolithic context in aSpanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens testedfrom the same site were in haplogroupG2a (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_G2a_(Y-DNA)&action=edit&redlink=1),which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not themodern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recentevents, E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic, carried byearly farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the WesternMediterranean, much earlier than the Bronze age. This supports theproposals of Battaglia et al. rather than Cruciani et al. at leastconcerning earliest European dispersals, but E-V13 may have dispersedmore than once. Even more recent than the Bronze Age, it has alsobeen proposed that modern E-V13's modern distribution in Europe is atleast partly caused by Roman era movements of people.[86] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe#cite_note-Bird_2007-86) (Seebelow.)


Afteran initial focus upon E1b1b as a Neolithic marker, a more recentstudy in January 2010, looked at Y haplogroup R1b1b, which is muchmore common in WesternEurope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe).Mark Jobling said: "We focused on the commonest Y-chromosomelineage in Europe, carried by about 110 million men, it follows agradient from south-east to north-west, reaching almost 100%frequency in Ireland. We looked at how the lineage is distributed,how diverse it is in different parts of Europe, and how old it is."The results suggested that the lineage R1b1b2(R-M269) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)),like E1b1b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)) or J (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J_(Y-DNA)) lineages,spread together with farming from the Near East. Dr PatriciaBalaresque added: "In total, this means that more than 80% ofEuropean Y chromosomes descend from incoming farmers. In contrast,most maternal genetic lineages seem to descend from hunter-gatherers.To us, this suggests a reproductive advantage for farming males overindigenous hunter-gatherer males during the switch from hunting andgathering, to farming"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe

None of these mention a crossing from North Africa more and more Libya.





How do we know that E-V13 survived in the Mountains? The highest E-V13 concentration is in the Norman founded town of Piazza Armenia besides its more evident in the eastern part of Sicily which was Greek dominated since antiquity. It is not known that there were any great settlement from invaders in Sicily except for the installation of Garrisons and the immediate minimal ripple effect that will bring with it. Example the British were in Malta for 200 years but the genetic impact (British surnames (as its difficlut to suss out through DNA) would only have some 2% on the present day gene pool. It wasn't much different during past eras. Dont think that there were some mass migrations and settlements from all people that invade a country and somehow present DNA results prove that too.

These papers are obviously obsolete. E-V13 was not the main Neolithic lineage as everybody (me included) once thought.

Maleth
12-01-15, 21:14
These papers are obviously obsolete. E-V13 was not the main Neolithic lineage as everybody (me included) once thought.

I see, would you know were I can read more about the upgrades other then the ones I posted taken from Wiki. I'm desperately trying to google search, but no luck.

Maciamo
12-01-15, 21:26
I see, would you know were I can read more about the upgrades other then the ones I posted taken from Wiki. I'm desperately trying to google search, but no luck.

What do you mean by upgrades ? Newer studies ? There aren't any about E1b1b. The most up-to-date info, I think, is on Eupedia. Academics who publish these studies are usually people who studied biology (genetics) but have little knowledge of history or archeology. They have funds to run large scale studies, but aren't always good at interpreting the historical significance of the results. Then there are times when everybody, even hobbyists, mistake. That was the case with E-V13 being brought by Near Eastern farmers.

Sile
12-01-15, 21:52
Im not being sarcastic or anything, but what has happened to the information of these papers? are they absolete now and the North Africa migration of E-V13 to europe is taking over? if it is were can i find scientific documents about it? I am really interested.



Cavalli Sforza says Haplogroup E1b1b1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)), mainly in the form of its E1b1b1a2 (E-V13) sub-clade reaches frequencies above 40% around the area ofKosovo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo).[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe#cite_note-31) This clade is thought to have arrived in Europe from western Asia either in the later Mesolithic,[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe#cite_note-32) or the Neolithic.[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe#cite_note-cruciani2004-33)



Battagliaet al Concerningtiming the distribution and diversity of V13 however,Battagliaet al. (2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe#CITEREFBattaglia_et_al.2 008))proposed an earlier movement whereby the E-M78* lineage ancestral toall modern E-V13 men moved rapidly out of a Southern Egyptianhomeland and arrived in Europe with only Mesolithic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesolithic)technologies.They then suggest that the E-V13 sub-clade of E-M78 only expandedsubsequently as native Balkan 'foragers-cum-farmers' adoptedNeolithic technologies from the Near East. They propose that thefirst major dispersal of E-V13 from the Balkans may have been in thedirection of the AdriaticSea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Sea) withthe Neolithic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic)ImpressedWare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardium_Pottery)cultureoften referred to as Impressa or Cardial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardium_Pottery). Peričicet al. (2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe#CITEREFPeri.C4.8Dic_et_a l.2005)),rather propose that the main route of E-V13 spread was along theVardar-Morava-Danube river 'highway' system.
Incontrast to Battaglia, Crucianiet al. (2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe#CITEREFCruciani_et_al.20 07))tentatively suggested (i) a different point where the V13 mutationhappened on its way from Egypt to the Balkans via the Middle East,and (ii) a later dispersal time.



Morerecently, Lacanet al. (2011 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe#CITEREFLacanKayserRicaut Brucato2011))announced that a 7000 year old skeleton in a Neolithic context in aSpanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens testedfrom the same site were in haplogroupG2a (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_G2a_(Y-DNA)&action=edit&redlink=1),which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not themodern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recentevents, E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic, carried byearly farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the WesternMediterranean, much earlier than the Bronze age. This supports theproposals of Battaglia et al. rather than Cruciani et al. at leastconcerning earliest European dispersals, but E-V13 may have dispersedmore than once. Even more recent than the Bronze Age, it has alsobeen proposed that modern E-V13's modern distribution in Europe is atleast partly caused by Roman era movements of people.[86] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe#cite_note-Bird_2007-86) (Seebelow.)


Afteran initial focus upon E1b1b as a Neolithic marker, a more recentstudy in January 2010, looked at Y haplogroup R1b1b, which is muchmore common in WesternEurope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe).Mark Jobling said: "We focused on the commonest Y-chromosomelineage in Europe, carried by about 110 million men, it follows agradient from south-east to north-west, reaching almost 100%frequency in Ireland. We looked at how the lineage is distributed,how diverse it is in different parts of Europe, and how old it is."The results suggested that the lineage R1b1b2(R-M269) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)),like E1b1b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)) or J (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J_(Y-DNA)) lineages,spread together with farming from the Near East. Dr PatriciaBalaresque added: "In total, this means that more than 80% ofEuropean Y chromosomes descend from incoming farmers. In contrast,most maternal genetic lineages seem to descend from hunter-gatherers.To us, this suggests a reproductive advantage for farming males overindigenous hunter-gatherer males during the switch from hunting andgathering, to farming"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe

None of these mention a crossing from North Africa more and more Libya.





How do we know that E-V13 survived in the Mountains? The highest E-V13 concentration is in the Norman founded town of Piazza Armenia besides its more evident in the eastern part of Sicily which was Greek dominated since antiquity. It is not known that there were any great settlement from invaders in Sicily except for the installation of Garrisons and the immediate minimal ripple effect that will bring with it. Example the British were in Malta for 200 years but the genetic impact (British surnames (as its difficlut to suss out through DNA) would only have some 2% on the present day gene pool. It wasn't much different during past eras. Dont think that there were some mass migrations and settlements from all people that invade a country and somehow present DNA results prove that too.

check this out for E-v13

It seems ray Banks is assigned to upgrade/change layout of Isogg

File is 2015
https://sites.google.com/site/compositeytree/e1b1b-1

V13 is way down the E tree line

Maleth
12-01-15, 22:19
What do you mean by upgrades ? Newer studies ? There aren't any about E1b1b. The most up-to-date info, I think, is on Eupedia. Academics who publish these studies are usually people who studied biology (genetics) but have little knowledge of history or archeology. They have funds to run large scale studies, but aren't always good at interpreting the historical significance of the results. Then there are times when everybody, even hobbyists, mistake. That was the case with E-V13 being brought by Near Eastern farmers.

Sorry, yes that's what I meant, Updated/Newer studies one can read. Re geneticist I know what you mean. Spencer wells said (reported on National geographical) that Malta had nearly 50% Phoenician dna. Most people know nothing about DNA and some still echo this which is totally false. He also said that the Phoenicians must have wiped out the aboriginal population that was here when they arrived. He based this on J2 as being Phoenician when we all know its not the only Phoenician marker and its found in other populations besides Phoenician. He was not aware that Malta was repopulated from Sicily sometime in the late 1000's as it was depopulated after the Aglabide invasion. Other studies established that J2 in Malta is 22% with J1 being 8%. So it seems that some theories have to be taken with a pinch of salt....even if National geographic magazine had stated it.

You are right any google search on the matter points out to Eupidia most of the time....and to the forums too. Not much more info (other then Dienekes pops up)

The positive thing is we know much more now then we did even 5 years ago, and I have no doubt we will be knowing much more, making things more accurate in the years to come.

Maleth
12-01-15, 22:21
check this out for E-v13

It seems ray Banks is assigned to upgrade/change layout of Isogg

File is 2015
https://sites.google.com/site/compositeytree/e1b1b-1

V13 is way down the E tree line

Thanks for link. There is much more to test for to date. I will be doing some deeper testing through Ftdna soon (hopefully)

Semitic Duwa
17-01-15, 04:26
Maciamo, I think you're missing something here as far as Afroasiatic is of concern: While E-M35.1 and its subclades strongly correlate with the different AA branches, one should not forget that J1, T1a and R1b-V88 are very strong contenders and might've taken part in the spread of AA at a very early stage. This relates to the common debate around PAA's timeframe and subsequent associations with hunter-gatherers & agropastoralism (while it is obvious that the spread of several AA branches is tied to pastoralism, the association of PAA with herding communities is far more uncertain).

As far as E-V13 goes, it's obvious that it was born in North(east?) Africa as all the other M78 branches are found there... However, I wouldn't be so quick to ascribe its arrival to a Paleolithic or Mesolithic migration, we'll have to wait for more results from ancient remains to say for sure (Mesolithic E-V13 would be a good start).

Sile
17-01-15, 08:51
Maciamo, I think you're missing something here as far as Afroasiatic is of concern: While E-M35.1 and its subclades strongly correlate with the different AA branches, one should not forget that J1, T1a and R1b-V88 are very strong contenders and might've taken part in the spread of AA at a very early stage. This relates to the common debate around PAA's timeframe and subsequent associations with hunter-gatherers & agropastoralism (while it is obvious that the spread of several AA branches is tied to pastoralism, the association of PAA with herding communities is far more uncertain).

As far as E-V13 goes, it's obvious that it was born in North(east?) Africa as all the other M78 branches are found there... However, I wouldn't be so quick to ascribe its arrival to a Paleolithic or Mesolithic migration, we'll have to wait for more results from ancient remains to say for sure (Mesolithic E-V13 would be a good start).

I recommend that you view the new Ydna tree from June 2014 and note that, before any of the markers you mentioned where born , the only markers around where
D, E, C and F ( and the A B etc )

From F ( which is stated as )
The presence of several subclusters of F-M89 and K (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K_%28Y-DNA%29) that are largely restricted to the Indian subcontinent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_subcontinent) is consistent with the scenario that a coastal (southern route) of early human migration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_human_migration) out of Africa carried ancestral Eurasian lineages first to the coast of the Indian subcontinent, or that some of them originated there.
Came the ydna Haplogroups of GHIJKLT............Clearly all born outside of africa along with it's parent F.

From K , there later broke down further into P, M, S, N, O, X, Q and R

Clearly anything in Africa apart form D, E and C relates to subclades of haplogroups born outside of Africa but migrated to Africa ( not the back to Africa rubbish ) . I am not saying all E subclades where born in Africa, as some are from the Levant ( an indication that E moved out of africa via Egypt )

Maleth
17-01-15, 09:43
As far as E-V13 goes, it's obvious that it was born in North(east?) Africa as all the other M78 branches are found there... However, I wouldn't be so quick to ascribe its arrival to a Paleolithic or Mesolithic migration, we'll have to wait for more results from ancient remains to say for sure (Mesolithic E-V13 would be a good start).

Semetic Duwa what makes it so obvious that E-V13 was mutated in North (east?) Africa? M78 that was mutated some 18,000 BP is a very high probability to be born there. E-V13 was mutated some 8/10,000 later. Why would that make it obvious for it to be born there too? If it did, do you really believe that as soon as the person who had that mutation hopped over on a raft and had lots of children on the other side? We all know that E-V13 is approx 1% in North Africa. Apart from what is a real obvious fact that Greek settlements in Egypt are very well document from the classical era, so those meagre 1% cannot even be considered to be innate to the region and seems more like an import from the balkans rather then the other way round. I am doing my best to make sense out of it all.

Maleth
17-01-15, 09:46
I am not saying all E subclades where born in Africa, as some are from the Levant ( an indication that E moved out of africa via Egypt )

That makes much more sence to me as things stand. Surely have to wait for more concrete answers

Maciamo
17-01-15, 12:08
Semetic Duwa what makes it so obvious that E-V13 was mutated in North (east?) Africa? M78 that was mutated some 18,000 BP is a very high probability to be born there. E-V13 was mutated some 8/10,000 later. Why would that make it obvious for it to be born there too? If it did, do you really believe that as soon as the person who had that mutation hopped over on a raft and had lots of children on the other side? We all know that E-V13 is approx 1% in North Africa. Apart from what is a real obvious fact that Greek settlements in Egypt are very well document from the classical era, so those meagre 1% cannot even be considered to be innate to the region and seems more like an import from the balkans rather then the other way round. I am doing my best to make sense out of it all.

Age estimation of haplogroups are notoriously imprecise, even with a lot of data. For proof, the latest (and supposedly most accurate) Y-chromosomal tree's TMRCA estimations by Hallast et al. (2014) (http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2014/12/13/molbev.msu327.short) give haplogroup I1 an age of 3,500 years, even though a 7,000 year-old sample from Neolithic Hungary was found.

Personally I remain undecided about the place of origin of E-V13. It could have appeared in North Africa just before crossing to South Europe, but it could just as well have appeared soon after E-M78 people landed in Europe. We simply cannot know for now. E-V13 in Libya and Egypt could be easily explained by the ancient Greek presence in the region.

Maciamo
17-01-15, 12:14
Maciamo, I think you're missing something here as far as Afroasiatic is of concern: While E-M35.1 and its subclades strongly correlate with the different AA branches, one should not forget that J1, T1a and R1b-V88 are very strong contenders and might've taken part in the spread of AA at a very early stage. This relates to the common debate around PAA's timeframe and subsequent associations with hunter-gatherers & agropastoralism (while it is obvious that the spread of several AA branches is tied to pastoralism, the association of PAA with herding communities is far more uncertain).

Where did I say that Afroasiatic languages were spread only by E1b1b people ? If you put the explanations from different Y-DNA pages together, you'll see that I explained that R1b-V88 brought cattle to the Levant and North Africa, while J1 and T1a brought goats to the same region (+ the Arabian peninsula), both during the Early Neolithic. If Afroasiatic languages spread back from East Africa to Northwest Africa and the Middle East, then they would have brought all the lineages already present in East Africa at the time, namely an E1b1b majority accompanied by J1, T1a and R1b-V88. So yes, I agree with you on that.

Hauteville
17-01-15, 15:18
So why is E-V13 more common in Europe than North Africa today ? For three main reasons:

A) Due to a founder effect in the population that migrated from North Africa to Europe (a small group that had more V13 than average).

B) E-V13 survives mostly in places where Indo-Europeans arrived late and had a much smaller impact than in the rest of Europe, i.e. Iberia (R1b spread very slowly from 1800 to 1000 BCE), Italy (Italics only entered from 1200 BCE, but didn't reach the south until c. 500 BCE), southern Balkans (early entry of R1b but region already heavily populated and difficulty to Indo-Europeanise locals, as attested by the numerous pre-IE vocabulary in Albanian and Greek).

C) Europe didn't have the Arabic conquest (except Iberia, Malta and Sicily). Note how E-V13 survived better in the mountains of central Sicily than in coastal regions battered by waves of medieval invaders (Vandals, Normans, Saracens).
Italics arrived in Italy around the 2000 BCE and R1b was present there since the Copper Age.
Another correction is the Italics in south Italy, the Enotrian family (and the subgroups of the South like Sicels and Brutius entered in the south around 1300 BCE) with the myth of King Italo.
E-V13 has the same distribution of south Italy even in Germany according to this map.

http://s27.postimg.org/x2lg991bn/Haplogroup_E_V13.gif (http://postimage.org/)


C) Europe didn't have the Arabic conquest (except Iberia, Malta, Creta, South Western France and Sicily).

Fixed but they were deported from Spain and Sicily.

bicicleur
17-01-15, 15:21
Age estimation of haplogroups are notoriously imprecise, even with a lot of data. For proof, the latest (and supposedly most accurate) Y-chromosomal tree's TMRCA estimations by Hallast et al. (2014) (http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2014/12/13/molbev.msu327.short) give haplogroup I1 an age of 3,500 years, even though a 7,000 year-old sample from Neolithic Hungary was found.


3500 year seems very late, I'd say 4-5000 years
there doesn't have to be a contradiction with the neolithic I1 found 7000 years old
either neolithic I1 got extinct or it got through a serious bottleneck
as you stated yourself, not much of the G2a LBK and Cardial Ware expansions survived, most are G2a-P303 Indo-Europeans

Angela
17-01-15, 18:07
I don't think we can, at present, know whether E-V13 arose in north Africa (perhaps Egypt?). It might have, but as has been pointed out, there isn't very much there now, and what does exist could easily be explained by the large numbers of Greeks who settled in Egypt (and Libya) in the Hellenic period. I think the preponderance of the evidence is that it is more likely to have arisen either in the Near East or in Europe. It may turn out, however, that this will remain a mystery.

Certainly, if it did originate in North Africa, the more parsimonious take on the route for it, imo, would be north along the Levant and then into Europe. I'm not persuaded that it somehow crossed the Mediterranean directly from North Africa to Sicily, for example. The vast majority of the gene flow in the Mediterranean was by boats (or rafts) hugging the coastline and following the prevailing wind and sea currents. This was the case until very late indeed. Even in the Bronze Age, with much better technology, trade from Egypt to Greece followed a route north along the Levantine coast and only then headed west.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Qz1g_2VoM1UC&pg=PA68&lpg=PA68&dq=wind+and+sea+currents+in+the+Mediterranean+run+ counter+clockwise&source=bl&ots=brUZPpNjw8&sig=XCIpycLX3ZEvtIHv6ekiD37KTKg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aKKYU6_XCdGxsAS68YDoDw&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=wind%20and%20sea%20currents%20in%20the%20Mediter ranean%20run%20counter%20clockwise&f=false

http://www.mediterranean-yachting.com/Immagine/Maps/current.GIF

Furthermore, one thing that I think is clear from Boattini et al is that whatever the precise dates might be for E-V13, the relative dating, at least, shows that the E-V13 in Italy arrived rather late in history. The most reasonable explanation, in my view, is that it arrived via Greece and the Balkans, and I think the likelihood of the E-V13 in the Balkans and Greece stemming from a man being being blown across the Mediterranean from North Africa to Greece and getting very lucky is even more unlikely than the same scenario for Sicily.
See:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29842-southern-Italian-paper-2014?highlight=Boattini

There is a reason why current haplogroups are distributed along the Mediterranean in certain specific ways: it's just not all that easy to go south/north or north/south across it. It required more sophisticated shipbuilding and navigation techniques. That isn't to say, of course, that there couldn't have been some gene flow in those directions. While some E-M81 in Iberia may have come from North Africa with the Moors, the fact that there is WHG in North Africa indicates some gene flow in both directions occurred, and some of it could have arrived at an earlier time. (Given the relatively young age of E-M81, however, I think it looks more like Neolithic era gene flow than a Mesolithic one.) Likewise, there could have been some movement from Tunisia to Sicily in ancient times. I just don't think that fits with E-V13; it was in the Balkans before it was in Italy.

As to whether this migration was Mesolithic or Neolithic I don't know. The expansion time for modern European E-V13, however, seems to be pretty late and correlates pretty well to the Bronze Age.

Semitic Duwa
17-01-15, 18:24
Semetic Duwa what makes it so obvious that E-V13 was mutated in North (east?) Africa? M78 that was mutated some 18,000 BP is a very high probability to be born there. E-V13 was mutated some 8/10,000 later. Why would that make it obvious for it to be born there too? If it did, do you really believe that as soon as the person who had that mutation hopped over on a raft and had lots of children on the other side? We all know that E-V13 is approx 1% in North Africa. Apart from what is a real obvious fact that Greek settlements in Egypt are very well document from the classical era, so those meagre 1% cannot even be considered to be innate to the region and seems more like an import from the balkans rather then the other way round. I am doing my best to make sense out of it all.

The sheer fact that all the other M78 branches (V12, V22, V65) are distributed mainly throughout North Africa and that the respective branches' have their highest diversity in North Africa does a great disfavour to any theory implying that E-V13 wasn't born in North Africa... I sincerely fail to see what's so hard to understand about this.
Now of course, we cannot be sure just yet as we don't have actual confirmation from archeogenetic data, and so in a sense "anything" is possible (including the disappearance of earlier centres of M78 diversity in the Middle East), one thing's for sure though: The odds are in favour of a North African origin for E-V13.

Sile
17-01-15, 20:07
The sheer fact that all the other M78 branches (V12, V22, V65) are distributed mainly throughout North Africa and that the respective branches' have their highest diversity in North Africa does a great disfavour to any theory implying that E-V13 wasn't born in North Africa... I sincerely fail to see what's so hard to understand about this.
Now of course, we cannot be sure just yet as we don't have actual confirmation from archeogenetic data, and so in a sense "anything" is possible (including the disappearance of earlier centres of M78 diversity in the Middle East), one thing's for sure though: The odds are in favour of a North African origin for E-V13.

Since we know the Phoenicians only came from modern lebanon and it was under hittite influence in the early days of its success, its trading area was only with syria in the levant. The other southern parts where under the Egyptians.
If we study the November 2009 paper - landscape of the Levant, we find the following markers: only lebanon+syria
381 x J2-M172
368 x J1-M267
222 x E1b-M35
107 x L-M20
94 x G-M201
91 x R1b-P25
51 x R1a-M17
48 x T-M70
41 x I-M170
the other are too minor

Clearly the Phoenicians could only bring these markers to North Africa and the western Med.
Since E is one of the major ones, it seems like this is the answer ..

Maleth
18-01-15, 08:53
The sheer fact that all the other M78 branches (V12, V22, V65) are distributed mainly throughout North Africa and that the respective branches' have their highest diversity in North Africa does a great disfavour to any theory implying that E-V13 wasn't born in North Africa... I sincerely fail to see what's so hard to understand about this.
Now of course, we cannot be sure just yet as we don't have actual confirmation from archeogenetic data, and so in a sense "anything" is possible (including the disappearance of earlier centres of M78 diversity in the Middle East), one thing's for sure though: The odds are in favour of a North African origin for E-V13.

Simple. It seems that there are thousands of years between the birth of M78 and the new E-V13 mutation. Thousands of years means that the M78 could have easily moved to another completely different region and new mutation happened in a completely different location (region). This is extremely logical and possible and should carry no controversy. It is well known with other haplogroups and new mutations. Why is it too hard to understand? Then the next step is to:-

*)get correct ancient data (still very scarce but some is available)
*)see present concentrations
*)fit it in with documented history

and one can start to draw a picture.

Personally I am very much inclined to believe that E-78 (before the E-V13 mutation occurred) traveled out of Egypt and mixed or created part of the Natufian culture, moving further up along the coast by time (mixed with other haplogroups since the area seems to have been natural melting pot of haplos especially those known to have accompanied E-V13 like G's and J's). (Natufian culture covered present day Israel, Lebanon and Parts of Syria right up to the Turkish border and Carbon dating suggests it started from 15,000 years BP ).

quote:- More generally there has been discussion of the similarities of these cultures with those found in coastal North Africa. Graeme Barker notes there are: "similarities in the respective archaeological records of the Natufian culture of the Levant and of contemporary foragers in coastal North Africa across the late Pleistocene and early Holocene boundary" -unquote

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natufian_culture#Precursors_and_associated_culture s

The M78 traveled further north crossing to Europe (balkans or Islands) and E-V13 was born there or in the Levant (close to the balkans) . Of course when the miracle happens that we can correctly access the haplogroups of the many Natufian remains found in the near east region it would make things a little more easier. But I do not know of any study that has established these haplogroups yet.

Semitic Duwa
18-01-15, 21:32
Simple. It seems that there are thousands of years between the birth of M78 and the new E-V13 mutation. Thousands of years means that the M78 could have easily moved to another completely different region and new mutation happened in a completely different location (region). This is extremely logical and possible and should carry no controversy. It is well known with other haplogroups and new mutations. Why is it too hard to understand? Then the next step is to:-

*)get correct ancient data (still very scarce but some is available)
*)see present concentrations
*)fit it in with documented history

and one can start to draw a picture.

Personally I am very much inclined to believe that E-78 (before the E-V13 mutation occurred) traveled out of Egypt and mixed or created part of the Natufian culture, moving further up along the coast by time (mixed with other haplogroups since the area seems to have been natural melting pot of haplos especially those known to have accompanied E-V13 like G's and J's). (Natufian culture covered present day Israel, Lebanon and Parts of Syria right up to the Turkish border and Carbon dating suggests it started from 15,000 years BP ).

quote:- More generally there has been discussion of the similarities of these cultures with those found in coastal North Africa. Graeme Barker notes there are: "similarities in the respective archaeological records of the Natufian culture of the Levant and of contemporary foragers in coastal North Africa across the late Pleistocene and early Holocene boundary" -unquote

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natufian_culture#Precursors_and_associated_culture s

The M78 traveled further north crossing to Europe (balkans or Islands) and E-V13 was born there or in the Levant (close to the balkans) . Of course when the miracle happens that we can correctly access the haplogroups of the many Natufian remains found in the near east region it would make things a little more easier. But I do not know of any study that has established these haplogroups yet.

The arguments you've made can also be assessed for other M78 branches, so once more I fail to see what's so hard to understand about what I just said, the other M78 branches (which all have a significant time gap between their birth and that of M78) arose and emerged in Africa, and so this makes an African origin for E-V13 more likely than the scenario you speak of. Now as I said I could be wrong, we cannot know for sure judging from contemporary samples, we can only suspect, so we'll have to wait for archeogenetic confirmation of a given model.

As far as the Natufian horizon is of concern, while it does harbour North African influences it mostly seems to be derived from the earlier Kebaran horizon which preceded it... The thing is, we shouldn't try to make this a black & white issue, we've stumbled onto a few surprises while uncovering Europe's genetic past (and we still are), there's no reason why North Africa and SW Asia would prove any less bewildering especially if we take into account the fact that these parts of the world have a far more complex story to tell than Europe has.

Maciamo
19-01-15, 10:07
I think you guys should check the E1b1b tree. There are three new subclades in between E-M78 and E-V13, each defined respectively by 2 and 13 mutations. Let's call them E-Z1919 and E-L618. V13 has four other defining mutations. After that V13 expands into numerous subclades (six to date) each defined by a single mutation.

What this shows is that L618 evolved in isolation for quite a well before V13 appeared, then V13 seems to have blossomed in all directions. This would be consistent with L618 being a minor North African lineage winnowed by the advance of the Sahara, and that V13 suddenly re-expanded after reaching fertile southern Europe.

It would be interesting to get the distributions of E-Z1919* and E-L618* to get an idea of the path followed by this lineage on its way to Europe. Unfortunately they are too new to have relevant data, esp. from Africa where commercial tests are sparse.

bicicleur
19-01-15, 13:45
I think you guys should check the E1b1b tree. There are three new subclades in between E-M78 and E-V13, each defined respectively by 2 and 13 mutations. Let's call them E-Z1919 and E-L618. V13 has four other defining mutations. After that V13 expands into numerous subclades (six to date) each defined by a single mutation.

What this shows is that L618 evolved in isolation for quite a well before V13 appeared, then V13 seems to have blossomed in all directions. This would be consistent with L618 being a minor North African lineage winnowed by the advance of the Sahara, and that V13 suddenly re-expanded after reaching fertile southern Europe.

It would be interesting to get the distributions of E-Z1919* and E-L618* to get an idea of the path followed by this lineage on its way to Europe. Unfortunately they are too new to have relevant data, esp. from Africa where commercial tests are sparse.

what we know is the E-Z1919 split into E-V13 and E-V22 : Red Sea, Somalia
and YFull has 81 SNPs for E-V13 (I guess inclusive E-L618) , so E-V13 may have made a long journey before expanding

E-V68 and E-M78 also have lots of SNP

Maciamo
19-01-15, 19:12
what we know is the E-Z1919 split into E-V13 and E-V22 : Red Sea, Somalia
and YFull has 81 SNPs for E-V13 (I guess inclusive E-L618) , so E-V13 may have made a long journey before expanding

E-V68 and E-M78 also have lots of SNP

A long period of isolation is compatible with V13 crossing early to Italy during the Ice Age and being stuck there for several millennia because of the glaciers around the Alps. Then, we could suppose that the sudden diversification of subclades coincides with the warming up of the climate and the adoption of agriculture after mixing with G2a farmers (and J1+T1a herders).

Sile
19-01-15, 22:00
The arguments you've made can also be assessed for other M78 branches, so once more I fail to see what's so hard to understand about what I just said, the other M78 branches (which all have a significant time gap between their birth and that of M78) arose and emerged in Africa, and so this makes an African origin for E-V13 more likely than the scenario you speak of. Now as I said I could be wrong, we cannot know for sure judging from contemporary samples, we can only suspect, so we'll have to wait for archeogenetic confirmation of a given model.

As far as the Natufian horizon is of concern, while it does harbour North African influences it mostly seems to be derived from the earlier Kebaran horizon which preceded it... The thing is, we shouldn't try to make this a black & white issue, we've stumbled onto a few surprises while uncovering Europe's genetic past (and we still are), there's no reason why North Africa and SW Asia would prove any less bewildering especially if we take into account the fact that these parts of the world have a far more complex story to tell than Europe has.

The question is or should be asked is .....Where ancient North-East Africans ( Egyptians ) really africans :eek:

http://www.academia.edu/3642572/Unraveling_the_Prehistoric_Ancestry_of_the_present-day_Inhabitants_of_Northeast_Africa._An_Archaeogen etic_Approach_to_Neolithisation

as per the link, not many of these "back to Africa" ( what a bad term for a haplogroup that never originated there) where more than a single subclade of a haplogroup

Apart from E1b1b showing origins in egypt, the rest seem like visitors

Maleth
21-01-15, 00:15
The arguments you've made can also be assessed for other M78 branches, so once more I fail to see what's so hard to understand about what I just said, the other M78 branches (which all have a significant time gap between their birth and that of M78) arose and emerged in Africa, and so this makes an African origin for E-V13 more likely than the scenario you speak of. Now as I said I could be wrong, we cannot know for sure judging from contemporary samples, we can only suspect, so we'll have to wait for archeogenetic confirmation of a given model.

Seems like there is a hole in the bucket dear Liza argument. You are acknowledging there is a significant gap between M78, and other mutations, at the same time you insist for this reason its more probable that EV13 was born were M78 was born. Are all know subgroups of a particular haplogroups known to be born in the same region where clades mutated up stream thousands of years after?


As far as the Natufian horizon is of concern, while it does harbour North African influences it mostly seems to be derived from the earlier Kebaran horizon which preceded it...

This does not exclude the same haplostructure amongst Natufians, after all we know that E's amongst others are one of the most popular Haplos amongst Jewish populations and also the Lebanese. Only by testing ancient DNA in these areas we can confirm their origins

Maleth
21-01-15, 00:39
What this shows is that L618 evolved in isolation for quite a well before V13 appeared, then V13 seems to have blossomed in all directions. This would be consistent with L618 being a minor North African lineage winnowed by the advance of the Sahara, and that V13 suddenly re-expanded after reaching fertile southern Europe.

As you mentioned data is scarce in the meantime do we know the frequency of E-L618 in North Africa? Do we know the frequency in the Near east?. Not yet I think. As you said if we did then we can follow a pattern that makes things more probable with a more accurate picture. In the meantime we know E-V13 is around 1% there. We also know that E-V13 in Sicily is frequent in Greek founded cities mostly on the Eastern part of the Island. To the west there are other E's in Phoenician founded locations (all imported from the East and not North Africa) If E-V13 was the first to enter in Sicily then it should be older and probably much more frequent then it is today. While Peloponnese makes much higher percentages. I have no doubt that Sicily would have provided good fertile ground for E-v13 to flourish as much as it would have had in the Peloponnese region (47%?)

Maleth
21-01-15, 00:57
The question is or should be asked is .....Where ancient North-East Africans ( Egyptians ) really africans :eek:

http://www.academia.edu/3642572/Unraveling_the_Prehistoric_Ancestry_of_the_present-day_Inhabitants_of_Northeast_Africa._An_Archaeogen etic_Approach_to_Neolithisation

as per the link, not many of these "back to Africa" ( what a bad term for a haplogroup that never originated there) where more than a single subclade of a haplogroup

Apart from E1b1b showing origins in egypt, the rest seem like visitors

Thanks for posting link Sile. The paper confirms that Anatolian E-V13 is older then the Balkan E-V13 and a probable near Eastern entry into Europe is probable (Unless we find older in the Balkans proper themselves) I Believe that in one of Maciamo's post was stated that the info on these papers are obsolete........... If we can tell the age in a reliable manner of E-V13, I wonder if any were found in Sicily to prove a first entry from North Africa as its being said...........

Semitic Duwa
21-01-15, 06:05
Seems like there is a hole in the bucket dear Liza argument. You are acknowledging there is a significant gap between M78, and other mutations, at the same time you insist for this reason its more probable that EV13 was born were M78 was born. Are all know subgroups of a particular haplogroups known to be born in the same region where clades mutated up stream thousands of years after?

I think you misunderstand what I'm saying here, namely that North Africa harbours the greatest M78 diversity and therefore this should provide a clue to V13's origins... I've checked E-M35.1 phylogenetic tree and it seems to me that Z1919 itself could have emerged in North Africa (around the shores of the Red Sea?) and crossed the Sinai with the Mushabian complex thereby resulting in the Kebaran-Mushabian merge which paved the way towards the Natufian horizon's emergence. This scenario has interesting implications from a linguistic POV since it means V22 and L618 could have branched off in the Levant at that time (this would solve a few problems we've had with V22's distribution and it would strengthen the case for a neolithic dispersal of E-V13).

Then again, this is just an educated guess and we will need archeogenetic testing to confirm or infirm it.


This does not exclude the same haplostructure amongst Natufians, after all we know that E's amongst others are one of the most popular Haplos amongst Jewish populations and also the Lebanese. Only by testing ancient DNA in these areas we can confirm their origins

Oh but I am well aware, E-M34 happens to be the most common lineage amongst my relatives (which isn't "normal" as one would expect my own paternal lineage to be the most common one [it's the second most common one though] given the long history of inbreeding in my family) and I suspect my paternal grandmother's father himself carried this haplogroup... However, I think we shouldn't make hasty conclusions from contemporary data, especially without archeogenetic data.

Maciamo
21-01-15, 09:40
As you mentioned data is scarce in the meantime do we know the frequency of E-L618 in North Africa? Do we know the frequency in the Near east?. Not yet I think. As you said if we did then we can follow a pattern that makes things more probable with a more accurate picture. In the meantime we know E-V13 is around 1% there. We also know that E-V13 in Sicily is frequent in Greek founded cities mostly on the Eastern part of the Island. To the west there are other E's in Phoenician founded locations (all imported from the East and not North Africa) If E-V13 was the first to enter in Sicily then it should be older and probably much more frequent then it is today. While Peloponnese makes much higher percentages. I have no doubt that Sicily would have provided good fertile ground for E-v13 to flourish as much as it would have had in the Peloponnese region (47%?)

E-L618 would have been reported as E-M78* in older studies. Cruciani et al. 2007's paper on E-M78 only found E-M78* among Egyptians from Gurna Oasis (5.9%), Moroccan Arabs (3.6%) and Sardinians (0.3%) - and no other population. So it looks like North Africa is where E-L618 developed, not the Near East or Greece.

Maciamo
21-01-15, 09:42
Thanks for posting link Sile. The paper confirms that Anatolian E-V13 is older then the Balkan E-V13 and a probable near Eastern entry into Europe is probable (Unless we find older in the Balkans proper themselves) I Believe that in one of Maciamo's post was stated that the info on these papers are obsolete........... If we can tell the age in a reliable manner of E-V13, I wonder if any were found in Sicily to prove a first entry from North Africa as its being said...........

How does it confirm anything. The paper does not mention even mention haplogroup E1b1b or E-V13.

Maciamo
21-01-15, 10:10
This does not exclude the same haplostructure amongst Natufians, after all we know that E's amongst others are one of the most popular Haplos amongst Jewish populations and also the Lebanese. Only by testing ancient DNA in these areas we can confirm their origins

The vast majority of Jewish E1b1b (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/JEWISHE3BPROJECT?iframe=yresults) belongs to E-M34, and even to the deeper L117 subclade. This does not suggest a very old origin like Neolithic or Natufian. Anyway if E-M34 already existed in the Early Neolithic we can infer that it would have spread everywhere with agriculture. No need to test ancient DNA to know this.

Maleth
21-01-15, 15:10
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying here, namely that North Africa harbours the greatest M78 diversity and therefore this should provide a clue to V13's origins...

Its maybe the way we are putting the words. Maybe I am emphasizing more the distinction between M78 (before the birth of V13 and V13 proper to were it was born. But V13 is comming out of M78 no doubt


I've checked E-M35.1 phylogenetic tree and it seems to me that Z1919 itself could have emerged in North Africa (around the shores of the Red Sea?) and crossed the Sinai with the Mushabian complex thereby resulting in the Kebaran-Mushabian merge which paved the way towards the Natufian horizon's emergence. This scenario has interesting implications from a linguistic POV since it means V22 and L618 could have branched off in the Levant at that time (this would solve a few problems we've had with V22's distribution and it would strengthen the case for a neolithic dispersal of E-V13).

So that is already an indication that before mutating to E-V13 - z1919 has moved to the East closer to the Levant and not North Africa.

(Another thing, I am not religious and do not follow religious books, but one can still refer to biblical (Torah) writings for some kind of historical references. In this case can there be some weight (maybe different (older) time frames) from stories brought down from generation to generation on the exodus of Jewish People from Egypt into the Sinai? Maybe it wasnt a dessert as we know it today, but whoever wrote the story have written it in todays context environmental wise. (just food for thought)

Maleth
21-01-15, 15:29
How does it confirm anything. The paper does not mention even mention haplogroup E1b1b or E-V13.

The link posted by Sile scrolling down to 6th page states:- quoting -Concerning E-V13 a comparision is made in the present article between the differing Neolithisation of the Balkans and Northeast Africa. A discussion of Anatolian and Southern Balkan and E-V13 is therefore relevant. The Anatolian coalescence age of E-V13 is 11.5 + 5.6Kya. The micorsatalite network of Anatolian E-V13 is not star shaped and does not indicate demographical growth (cruciani et al 2007) Balkan E-V13 has a more recent lerna/Frnchti southern Balkan coalescence of 9.2 + 4.3Kya and represents a South East European expansion - end quoting

There is more reference to E-V13 as it does not copy and paste.

Thanks for moving the Thread to its own.

Maciamo
21-01-15, 15:49
The link posted by Sile scrolling down to 6th page states:- quoting -Concerning E-V13 a comparision is made in the present article between the differing Neolithisation of the Balkans and Northeast Africa. A discussion of Anatolian and Southern Balkan and E-V13 is therefore relevant. The Anatolian coalescence age of E-V13 is 11.5 + 5.6Kya. The micorsatalite network of Anatolian E-V13 is not star shaped and does not indicate demographical growth (cruciani et al 2007) Balkan E-V13 has a more recent lerna/Frnchti southern Balkan coalescence of 9.2 + 4.3Kya and represents a South East European expansion - end quoting

There is more reference to E-V13 as it does not copy and paste.

Thanks for moving the Thread to its own.

I didn't see that. But anyway coalescence ages depend on the number of samples collected in each region and are always very imprecise (+- 5.6 kya is meaningless). Anyway E-V13 could very well be younger in places like Albania and Kosovo than in Anatolia, if V13 originated in North Africa or Italy, and spread first to Greece and western Anatolia, then only later north of Greece. After all, no E-V13 was found among Early Neolithic samples from the Starcevo culture in Serbia.

Maleth
21-01-15, 15:55
I would also like to add, that this is the write up I got on my haplogroup migration Map on Ftdna. quote - Haplogroup E1b1b East Africa and Western Eurasia - e-m215 has spread among North and East African Populations, to West Asia and eventually into Europe end quote.

(Again no North Africa crossing mentioned)

Maleth
25-01-15, 11:24
Very often the E-V13 in Britian and to some extent in South West Germany is suggested to be the result of Roman occupation (soldiers from the Balkans settling there, although if Im not mistaken this theory is being challenged too). Scandinavia was never conquered by the Romans. There are also tiny percentages of E-V13 in parts of Scandinavia. To what could these tiny percentages be attributed? at what age and how did they get there? Any opinions?

Mars
25-01-15, 12:36
Very often the E-V13 in Britian and to some extent in South West Germany is suggested to be the result of Roman occupation (soldiers from the Balkans settling there, although if Im not mistaken this theory is being challenged too). Scandinavia was never conquered by the Romans. There are also tiny percentages of E-V13 in parts of Scandinavia. To what could these tiny percentages be attributed? at what age and how did they get there? Any opinions?
Neolithic farmers maybe? They reached Scandinavia much later than other areas, but they eventually got there.

Maleth
26-01-15, 09:30
Neolithic farmers maybe? They reached Scandinavia much later than other areas, but they eventually got there.

I presume that can be a possibility. I have been following a discussion on another forum with an E-V13 Norwegian who is very curious of how E-V13 could have entered Scandinavia. Through his paper trail there were no recent interactions with outsiders. He suggested that it could be possible that there was some kind of contact (as in buying and selling of goods) between the region of Scandinavia and Thracia. An other person suggested maybe some people that were brought back after (Viking) raids on the continent or Britian. One has to have a knowledge (and as factual as possible) of a detailed history of the region (which I dont have). In fact Denmark (furthest south in Scandinavia) has the highest percentages of E-V13 at 4 to 3 % (Quoting this same person). This is all speculation of course but everything possible.

Maleth
28-01-15, 06:46
Neolithic farmers maybe? They reached Scandinavia much later than other areas, but they eventually got there.

I just noticed that the Danish FTdna project the E's are described as Neolithic farmers. It would be interesting to know how the project administrator came to that conclusion. G's are described as Paleolithic. If we know that is true then the Roman soldiers theory in Britain will naturally lose some credibility as the percentages are very similar in both regions.

MOESAN
31-01-15, 21:18
Y-EV13 is an old enough subclade in Europe I suppose, or at least its upstream SNPs: maybe just before Neolithic in Balkans? because of its apparent "preseance" in Montenegro/Crna Gora and South Dalmatia South Bosnia over supposed Neolithic Y groups as Y-G2a and Y-J2? -
when comparing the ratio's of E1b/J2, Eb/G2 and G2/J2, Bosnia (except bosnian Serbs) show the highest %s for E/J and E/G, and G/J, (at a lower level, Bulgaria seems showing the same less domination of J2) - and Crna Gora, and S-Bosnia had for I red the richest diversity in Balkans for E1b -
I could guess E1b seems the oldest in Balkans (West at least), before G itself before J2 (but J2 I admit is an unprecise naming, a lot different subclades exist came there at different times - ROUGH ANALYSIS !!!

all the way E1b appears having known a demographic "boom" more in South and Central-East Balkans (rivers system), maybe later, incorporated first among farmers and later among metals rich societies of East Balkans - the southern mixt of E1b(V13 for the mosr)+G2a+J2 seem going northwards from Romania to Bela-Russia with a rough correlation with 'mediterranean' autosomals there (Cucuteni Tripolje area) -
so the presence of Y-E1b (V13) in Britain as well as in Scandinavia can have several causes: Neolithic and Bronze/Iron ages, without need of a Roman explanation if not excluding this last one in Britain... very slight all the way

Sile
01-02-15, 11:42
the problem with that is that coalesence time for E-M81 seems to be very young - only a few thousand years
there are 106 known SNP for E-L19 and 131 for E-M81, but only 10 downstream of E-M81

arrival via Gibraltar seems very likely, but paleolithic/mesolithic not
the problem is there are no archeological traces which one would expect in this case

Are you stating in a way that all haplogroups have each mutation at approx. the same number of years?

Maleth
02-02-15, 08:30
The sheer fact that all the other M78 branches (V12, V22, V65) are distributed mainly throughout North Africa and that the respective branches' have their highest diversity in North Africa does a great disfavour to any theory implying that E-V13 wasn't born in North Africa... .

On the other hand, while there were apparently direct migrations from North Africa to Iberia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Peninsula) and Southern Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Italy) (of people carrying E-V68*, E-V12, E-V22, and E-V65), the majority of E-M78 lineages found in Europe belong to the E-V13 sub-clade which appears to have entered Europe at some time undeterminded from the Near East (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_East), where it apparently originated, via the Balkans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#Origins

bicicleur
02-02-15, 09:15
Are you stating in a way that all haplogroups have each mutation at approx. the same number of years?

the rate of snp/generation is allways the same
gereration can be longer or shorter,(20-30 years) and it me depend on the culture or way of life
the number of known snp is not the same as the real number of snp
but if one is looking systematically for snps, then the rate of known/real snps should be more or less the same for each haplogroup
the more snps become known the better the number these known snps indicate the age

bicicleur
02-02-15, 09:32
On the other hand, while there were apparently direct migrations from North Africa to Iberia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Peninsula) and Southern Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Italy) (of people carrying E-V68*, E-V12, E-V22, and E-V65), the majority of E-M78 lineages found in Europe belong to the E-V13 sub-clade which appears to have entered Europe at some time undeterminded from the Near East (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_East), where it apparently originated, via the Balkans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#Origins



I wonder whether this map is acurate :

7061

E1b1b1a (M78)Time of origin
~ 15,000 years BP
Place of origin
Northeast Africa
Ancestor
E1b1b1 (M35 (http://www.eupedia.com/E1b1b1_Y-DNA.htm))
Descendants
E1b1b1a1 (V12)
E1b1b1a2 (V13)
E1b1b1a3 (V22)
E1b1b1a4 (V65)


Highest Frequencies
Region
Frequency
Somalia
+ 75%
Darfur (Sudan)
+ 55%
Horn of Africa
+ 45%
Albania
+ 35%
Northern Egypt
+ 35%
Southern Greece
+ 35%
Libya
+ 30%
Cyprus
+ 15%
Southern Italy
+ 15%
Levant
+ 10%

my estimates :

time of origin
E-V68 30 ka
E-M78 23.5 ka
E-V13 13 ka
expansion time for E-V13 : 4.5 ka

Maleth
02-02-15, 12:12
I wonder whether this map is acurate :

7061

E1b1b1a (M78)Time of origin
~ 15,000 years BP
Place of origin
Northeast Africa
Ancestor
E1b1b1 (M35 (http://www.eupedia.com/E1b1b1_Y-DNA.htm))
Descendants
E1b1b1a1 (V12)
E1b1b1a2 (V13)
E1b1b1a3 (V22)
E1b1b1a4 (V65)


Highest Frequencies
Region
Frequency
Somalia
+ 75%
Darfur (Sudan)
+ 55%
Horn of Africa
+ 45%
Albania
+ 35%
Northern Egypt
+ 35%
Southern Greece
+ 35%
Libya
+ 30%
Cyprus
+ 15%
Southern Italy
+ 15%
Levant
+ 10%

my estimates :

time of origin
E-V68 30 ka
E-M78 23.5 ka
E-V13 13 ka
expansion time for E-V13 : 4.5 ka

Cruciani et al. (2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFCrucianiLa_FrattaTrombettaSantolamazza2 007)) suggests that this subclade originated in "Northeastern Africa", which in the study refers specifically to the region of Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt) andLibya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya).[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#cite_note-3)
Prior to Cruciani et al. (2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFCrucianiLa_FrattaTrombettaSantolamazza2 007)), Semino et al. (2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFSeminoMagriBenuzziLin2004)) had proposed a place of origin for E-M78 further south in East Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Africa). This was because of the high frequency and diversity of E-M78 lineages in the region of Ethiopia. However, Cruciani et al. (2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFCrucianiLa_FrattaTrombettaSantolamazza2 007)) were able to study more data, and concluded that the E-M78 lineages in the Horn of Africa were dominated by relatively recent branches (see E-V32 below). They concluded that the region of Egypt was the likely place of origin of E-M78 based on "the peripheral geographic distribution of the most derived subhaplogroups with respect to northeastern Africa, as well as the results of quantitative analysis of UEP and microsatellite diversity".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68

Not too sure what that map is representing.

I think this is more specific and informative


7062


Regarding the time frames I will not doubt that there will reconsideration by time. It happens as we will have more refined tools to analise data and so on.

bicicleur
02-02-15, 15:08
Cruciani et al. (2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFCrucianiLa_FrattaTrombettaSantolamazza2 007)) suggests that this subclade originated in "Northeastern Africa", which in the study refers specifically to the region of Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt) andLibya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya).[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#cite_note-3)
Prior to Cruciani et al. (2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFCrucianiLa_FrattaTrombettaSantolamazza2 007)), Semino et al. (2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFSeminoMagriBenuzziLin2004)) had proposed a place of origin for E-M78 further south in East Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Africa). This was because of the high frequency and diversity of E-M78 lineages in the region of Ethiopia. However, Cruciani et al. (2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFCrucianiLa_FrattaTrombettaSantolamazza2 007)) were able to study more data, and concluded that the E-M78 lineages in the Horn of Africa were dominated by relatively recent branches (see E-V32 below). They concluded that the region of Egypt was the likely place of origin of E-M78 based on "the peripheral geographic distribution of the most derived subhaplogroups with respect to northeastern Africa, as well as the results of quantitative analysis of UEP and microsatellite diversity".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68

Not too sure what that map is representing.

I think this is more specific and informative


7062


Regarding the time frames I will not doubt that there will reconsideration by time. It happens as we will have more refined tools to analise data and so on.

check this :



https://www.google.be/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2F Mark_Macklin%2Fpublication%2F227992119_The_Nile_Ev olution_Quaternary_River_Environments_and_Material _Fluxes%2Flinks%2F0fcfd5069887bcc176000000.pdf&ei=t57OVLDQAabD7gbL4YCADA&usg=AFQjCNFkY1-KMuvOq_oBDeL436YSFgjcBg&sig2=5RPjmo3TTlo-BphqhfNSUg&bvm=bv.85076809,d.ZGU

IMO E-M78 was a tribe along the Nile 23-15 ka
they were living on the fish and the plant food the Nile provided after each flooding season
15 ka the Nile changed
the subclades of E-M78 spread, looking for a new territory where they could survive

Maleth
02-02-15, 15:55
check this :



https://www.google.be/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2F Mark_Macklin%2Fpublication%2F227992119_The_Nile_Ev olution_Quaternary_River_Environments_and_Material _Fluxes%2Flinks%2F0fcfd5069887bcc176000000.pdf&ei=t57OVLDQAabD7gbL4YCADA&usg=AFQjCNFkY1-KMuvOq_oBDeL436YSFgjcBg&sig2=5RPjmo3TTlo-BphqhfNSUg&bvm=bv.85076809,d.ZGU

IMO E-M78 was a tribe along the Nile 23-15 ka
they were living on the fish and the plant food the Nile provided after each flooding season
15 ka the Nile changed
the subclades of E-M78 spread, looking for a new territory where they could survive




Cannot manage link :(. Seems like that region is most likely. (pre Nubians maybe? before recorded history?) If one has correct data of dramatic climate change and time frames it helps to piece the puzzle. Egypt has high percentage of M78. That was also the time of initiation of the Natufian culture in the Near east. My problem with that is that I read that climate change started taking effects approx some 10,000 years ago. That would make the spreading of E-M78 too late

10,000 years ago was the possible entry (judging on the ancient dna in iberia) of E-V13 in the Balkans which is much later to the birth of E-M78

Twilight
05-03-15, 05:21
I never saw this Civilization mentioned in this blog so I hope this helps.

According to Wikipedia the Capsian culture apparently has some settlements in Southern Spain and Sicily, I'm really curious to know what these settlement sites they speak of are.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsian_culture
2005 D. Lubell. Continuité et changement dans l'Epipaléolithique du Maghreb. In, M. Sahnouni (ed.) Le Paléolithique en Afrique: l’histoire la plus longue, pp. 205-226. Paris: Guides de la Préhistoire Mondiale, Éditions Artcom’/Errance.
2004 N. Rahmani. Technological and cultural change among the last Hunter-Gatherers of the Maghreb: the Capsian (10,000 B.P. to 6000 B.P.) (http://www.springerlink.com/index/W86H06473G555510.pdf). Journal of World Prehistory 18(1): 57-105.
2013 S. Mulazzani (ed.) Le Capsien de Hergla (Tunisie). Culture, Environnement et économie. (http://books.google.de/books?id=4i61eAzCoJwC&printsec=frontcover&hl=de&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false) Reports in African Archaeology 4. Frankfurt a. M., Africa Magna Verlag. ISBN 978-3-937248-36-3. (http://books.google.de/books/about/Le_Capsien_de_Hergla_Tunisie_Culture_env.html?id=4 i61eAzCoJwC&redir_esc=y)

Finalise
05-03-15, 07:32
That's right, E-V13 only makes up 1 or 2% of the Y-DNA in North AfricaSo when you see 1-2% North-West European Y-Dna in southern Europe and Anatolia it is because of Vikings. When you see 1-2% of a southern European Y-Dna in North Africa, it is because it came from there. Yeah, it's not like Greeks colonized Egypt or anything.
difficulty to Indo-Europeanise locals, as attested by the numerous pre-IE vocabulary in Albanian and Greek).Show me a single scholarly source that says Albanian has numerous pre-IE vocabulary. Because EV-13 had a founder effect in small Balkans' states, it means they have pre-IE vocabulary? Maybe the V88 bearers in Africa speak a cousin language to Indo-European who knows? #MaciamoLogic

Maleth
05-03-15, 10:34
I never saw this Civilization mentioned in this blog so I hope this helps.

According to Wikipedia the Capsian culture apparently has some settlements in Southern Spain and Sicily, I'm really curious to know what these settlement sites they speak of are.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsian_culture
2005 D. Lubell. Continuité et changement dans l'Epipaléolithique du Maghreb. In, M. Sahnouni (ed.) Le Paléolithique en Afrique: l’histoire la plus longue, pp. 205-226. Paris: Guides de la Préhistoire Mondiale, Éditions Artcom’/Errance.
2004 N. Rahmani. Technological and cultural change among the last Hunter-Gatherers of the Maghreb: the Capsian (10,000 B.P. to 6000 B.P.) (http://www.springerlink.com/index/W86H06473G555510.pdf). Journal of World Prehistory 18(1): 57-105.
2013 S. Mulazzani (ed.) Le Capsien de Hergla (Tunisie). Culture, Environnement et économie. (http://books.google.de/books?id=4i61eAzCoJwC&printsec=frontcover&hl=de&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false) Reports in African Archaeology 4. Frankfurt a. M., Africa Magna Verlag. ISBN 978-3-937248-36-3. (http://books.google.de/books/about/Le_Capsien_de_Hergla_Tunisie_Culture_env.html?id=4 i61eAzCoJwC&redir_esc=y)




Thank you Twighlight, interesting links and ancient culture. I am inclined to believe that the Capsians would be a people that later mixed with berbers (or could have already been related), which would have been a source of Ydna E-M81 that is prevalent today.

Twilight
06-03-15, 03:36
Thank you Twighlight, interesting links and ancient culture. I am inclined to believe that the Capsians would be a people that later mixed with berbers (or could have already been related), which would have been a source of Ydna E-M81 that is prevalent today.

You are most welcome :)

khufu
06-03-15, 17:25
Somalia
+ 75%
Darfur (Sudan)
+ 55%
Horn of Africa
+ 45%

somali is v32 under v12

Darfur (Sudan) is v12

Horn of Africa is v12 and v32 and v22

Libya v65


v68* and m78* found in europe and anatolian not in africa

giuseppe rossi
10-03-15, 16:00
B) E-V13 survives mostly in places where Indo-Europeans arrived late and had a much smaller impact than in the rest of Europe, i.e. Iberia (R1b spread very slowly from 1800 to 1000 BCE), Italy (Italics only entered from 1200 BCE, but didn't reach the south until c. 500 BCE), southern Balkans (early entry of R1b but region already heavily populated and difficulty to Indo-Europeanise locals, as attested by the numerous pre-IE vocabulary in Albanian and Greek).

Italics were not the first Indo Europeans in Italy. There were several migrations from Central/Eastern Europe into Italy since the Copper Age.

The first Indo Europeans arrived with the Remedello and Rinaldone Cultures around 3500 BC.

Italics settled between 2000 and 1000 BC from the Tumulus/Unetice/Urnfield cultures.

Oldest Celtic inscription were found in the Golasecca culture.

Ligurians are now considered to be of Celtic stock, based on placenames and personal names.

giuseppe rossi
10-03-15, 17:17
According to Gimbutas the Remedello and Rinaldone Cultures represent the first Indo European migrations into Italy.

http://i.imgur.com/R4biR0b.gif

Copper Daggers.

http://i.imgur.com/X4v5aOv.png

Expredel
10-03-15, 20:09
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/saharan-remains-may-be-evidence-of-first-race-war-13000-years-ago-9603632.html

This might be the best evidence of African migration into North Africa. The Nile river was dried up for quite a while and started flowing again around 11000 BC, possibly as early as 13000 BC.

Malaria resistance could be an explanation for E1b doing well in North Africa and Southern Europe, keep in mind malaria was wide spread in Southern Europe at one point, and likely several points in time. Malaria is such a nasty disease that it is highly improbable that E1b doesn't offer some kind of increased resistance.

Maleth
10-03-15, 21:56
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/saharan-remains-may-be-evidence-of-first-race-war-13000-years-ago-9603632.html

This might be the best evidence of African migration into North Africa. The Nile river was dried up for quite a while and started flowing again around 11000 BC, possibly as early as 13000 BC.

Malaria resistance could be an explanation for E1b doing well in North Africa and Southern Europe, keep in mind malaria was wide spread in Southern Europe at one point, and likely several points in time. Malaria is such a nasty disease that it is highly improbable that E1b doesn't offer some kind of increased resistance.

Thank you for link Expredel, very interesting. E1b is a very generic term. Like most haplogroups many have been split into further subclades. There are even thousands of years between each subclade so it is becoming more appropriate to differentiate for the simple reason that we are realising that each subclade as in any other haplogroup, has a different story to tell. So these generic maps with a simple A,B,C are a little passe for people who are really interested in migrations and their stories.

The Malaria theory is a very interesting one. Has there been a study in regards to Malaria resistance in 'General' E folks? However personally I do not agree with this for the simple reason that E people in subsaharan Africa are not resistant to Malaria some 68,000,000 people contracted it in 2009. Half of the Malaria cases (if not mistaken) are contracted in South East Asia.

In North Africa its not much of a threat for the simple reason that it does not have the same tropical conditions (warm / hot and wet) found in Subsharan Africa (and not resistance per se). As in South Europe E (which to the most is E-V13, not found in Sub saharan Africa and rare in North Africa), is not the main Haplogroup, so other HG groups should not be resistant to Malaria too if as you say South Europe is doing so well?. However resistance is not the case. Malaria in South Europe does not present the same ideal Tropical conditions for it to be a big issue such as South East Asia and Sub saharan Africa.

Expredel
10-03-15, 22:32
You have to keep in mind that the right tropical conditions for malaria existed in North Africa and Southern Europe at one point.

Historical malaria distribution.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Malaria_distribution.jpg

Malaria resistance is not the same as malaria immunity, it would more so have to do with decreasing the likelihood of acquiring the disease and the speed of recovery.

Sickle cell anemia is a good indicator.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/Sickle_cell_distribution.jpg

Far from perfect data, maybe someone more knowledgeable can make better sense of it and link it to African migrations. Looks like the map supports an early E1 migration that carried sickle-cell anemia, followed by a 2nd migration that did not carry it. Could be the 2nd migration carried a mutation that made the sickle-cell anemia mutation obsolete.

Maleth
11-03-15, 09:39
You have to keep in mind that the right tropical conditions for malaria existed in North Africa and Southern Europe at one point.

Malaria sure existed and not too long ago in relative terms well into very late medieval period. We had a local area of 'marsh land' on the south of the Harbour area. people did not live there because of the problem. The Grand master of the time commissioned a project to drain the waters (to the horror of the wild birds that used to roost there :)) and created incentives for people to move in the area. Now the town is called Rahal Gdid New village, or Paola (the name of the grandmaster). The British turned the area into a Sports Centre for the use of the military services, now its a horse racing track, golf centre and rugby ground. I am sure similar Marsh land could have been the main cause of Malaria in other regions in South europe and North Africa. Both regions have an advantage tho as they both have long dry summers and collection of rain water that goes stale is temporary unlike tropical areas.


Far from perfect data, maybe someone more knowledgeable can make better sense of it and link it to African migrations. Looks like the map supports an early E1 migration that carried sickle-cell anemia, followed by a 2nd migration that did not carry it. Could be the 2nd migration carried a mutation that made the sickle-cell anemia mutation obsolete.

Im really not an expert and stand to be corrected but sickle-cell anemia is directly co related to Malaria stricken areas irrelevant of Hplogroups. The sickle cell anemia could affect any haplogroup that has a history of Malaria.

"Due to the adaptive advantage of the heterozygote, the disease is still prevalent, especially among people with recent ancestry in malaria-stricken areas, such as Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa), the Mediterranean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean), India (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India), and the Middle East (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East).[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle-cell_disease#cite_note-pmid16001361-34) Malaria was historically endemic to southern Europe, but it was declared eradicated in the mid-20th century, with the exception of rare sporadic cases."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle-cell_disease#Genetics

I think there were also know cases (maybe to a much lesser extent (because of cooler weather) in other parts of the world and not just a subject to these areas. This is why so much Marsh terrain has been drained in so many countries making ways to canals

HQ420832
16-04-15, 21:00
E-V13 very likely originated in Libya, not in Near East.

Indeed,

Bekada et al. 2013 "Introducing the Algerian Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Profiles into the North African Landscape" reported 7.2% E-M78 in a sample of 83 Lybians (Cruciani et al. 2007; Ottoni et al. 2011; unpublished results), including 2.4% E-V13 and 4.8% E-V65.

Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2013 "Genome-Wide and Paternal Diversity Reveal a Recent Origin of Human Populations in North Africa" reported 11.1% E-M78 in a new sample of 215 Lybians. Percentage of E-V13 is not mentionned in the study but according to someone who contacted one of the authors, E-V13 is around 3.7%.

Maleth
17-04-15, 11:14
E-V13 very likely originated in Libya, not in Near East.

Indeed,

Bekada et al. 2013 "Introducing the Algerian Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Profiles into the North African Landscape" reported 7.2% E-M78 in a sample of 83 Lybians (Cruciani et al. 2007; Ottoni et al. 2011; unpublished results), including 2.4% E-V13 and 4.8% E-V65.

Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2013 "Genome-Wide and Paternal Diversity Reveal a Recent Origin of Human Populations in North Africa" reported 11.1% E-M78 in a new sample of 215 Lybians. Percentage of E-V13 is not mentionned in the study but according to someone who contacted one of the authors, E-V13 is around 3.7%.

Hardly any prove to merit an 'indeed' for a mutation of E-V13 in Libya with those (anyway) low figures in bold....don't you think so? besides E-V13 type are more likely an import of very well documented Greek settlements and slaves brought over to North Africa through frequent raids of southern European shores rather some mutation that occurred there. Very much to the contrary of very high percentages of E-81 that characterize the YDNA of the area ;).

Maleth
09-06-15, 13:27
More opinions on E-V13 from 12-1-2013Genetics and the Archaeology of Ancient Israel of Wayne state University:-

Aegean Immigration to the southern Levant:The Y chromosome patterns of contemporary populations offers a lens throughwhich to explore the possible demographic effects of the Iron Age I Philistines in the farsouthern coastal Levant. Apart from the J2a patterns listed above, previous studies showan Aegean focus for two non-J Y lineages: E-V13 and G-M527/L13. E-V13 has beenshown to have originated most probably in the Balkans circa 9000 BCE as a Mesolithicmarker, while G-M527/L13 arose somewhat later during the Late Neolithic Era in coastalWestern Anatolia (Battaglia et al. 2008; Rootsi et al. 2012). Both lineages track Greekcolonization events from present day Marseilles/Provence (Greek colony of Massalia) toGreek colonies in Ukraine and Crimea (King et al. 2011; Rootsi et al. 2012). We alsofind E-V13 and G-M527 among contemporary Palestinians and Druze from Israel (table1). This result suggests that E-V13 and G-M527 may track the immigration of Aegean........

http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1043&context=humbiol_preprints

noUseForAname
27-06-15, 20:16
Not really. I expect that they were fishermen who got lost and ended up on the wrong coast.

Don't forget the small island of Pantelleria halfway between Tunisia (60 km) and Sicily (100 km). That is now. At the height of the Ice Age it would be less than half that distance. Since we are discussing it, I checked it up and there was actually a land bridge uniting Malta, Sicily and Calabria into a single land mass.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/45/05/2c/45052c50a4634109c3b175523b9716db.jpg

Regarding Australia, I read that the shortest distance from Indonesia (which was a single unified island known as Sahul back then) was 90 km at the height of the Ice Age, but it is now over 500 km.


Very interesting, so basically you could have even swam from Africa to Sicily and spreading anywhere in Europe and Balkans...

Sile
27-06-15, 20:28
According to Gimbutas the Remedello and Rinaldone Cultures represent the first Indo European migrations into Italy.

http://i.imgur.com/R4biR0b.gif

Copper Daggers.

http://i.imgur.com/X4v5aOv.png

When BB entered Italy , it mixed with Remedello and became Polada culture

HQ420832
27-06-15, 21:05
According to a new study by Trombetta et al.2015 (http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2015/06/23/gbe.evv118.short?rss=1), E-V13 (like E-V22) is now under a new E-V1083.

What is very interesting is that E-V1083* was found only in Eritrea (1.1%) and Sardinia (0.3%) and nowhere else among the 5 222 individuals from 116 populations from previous studies that were analysed.

So E-V13's parent clade (E-V1083) almost surely originated in East Africa, then from North Africa crossed the mediterranean to Sardinia. So the hypothesis that E-V13 and other E1b1b lineages came to the Balkans from the southern Levant via Anatolia during the Neolithic seems now obsolete... The absence of E-V1083* in the Middle East makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis.



E-M78

E-M78*
E-V1477
E-V1083.

E-V1083*. Found in Eritreans and Sardinians.
E-V13
E-V22


E-V1129

E-V12

E-V12*
E-V32


E-V264

E-V259. Found in North Cameroon.
E-V65

Maleth
28-06-15, 13:04
According to a new study by Trombetta et al.2015 (http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2015/06/23/gbe.evv118.short?rss=1), E-V13 (like E-V22) is now under a new E-V1083.

What is very interesting is that E-V1083* was found only in Eritrea (1.1%) and Sardinia (0.3%) and nowhere else among the 5 222 individuals from 116 populations from previous studies that were analysed.

So E-V13's parent clade (E-V1083) almost surely originated in East Africa, then from North Africa crossed the mediterranean to Sardinia. So the hypothesis that E-V13 and other E1b1b lineages came to the Balkans from the southern Levant via Anatolia during the Neolithic seems now obsolete... The absence of E-V1083* in the Middle East makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis.



E-M78

E-M78*
E-V1477
E-V1083.

E-V1083*. Found in Eritreans and Sardinians.
E-V13
E-V22


E-V1129

E-V12

E-V12*
E-V32


E-V264

E-V259. Found in North Cameroon.
E-V65









Thanks for posting this HQ. I had a quick look but will be reading it in detail later. Unfortunately the paper mostly seem to concentrates on the v1515 which co relates with sub saharan clades. There is no mention of E-V1038. (I try to look for this E-V1083 maybe in other sources. In regards to E-V13 it more or less confirms earlier studies, and it does not make any references to how it entered in Europe. Personally I do not consider the findings in Sardenia and Eritrea as a proof of a crossing of this subclade from North Africa to South Europe espesially in the absense of any E-V1038 in North Africa proper. If we have to use this logic then we can say that it flew there (from Eritrea to Sardenia) so to speak. This is of particular interest to E-V13 and confirmes earlier findings.

(quote). Another striking aspect of ourdating is the previously unappreciated large difference in the age between haplogroup EM215(38.6 kya; 95% CI 31.4-45.9 kya) and its sub-haplogroup E-M35 (25.0 kya; 95% CI20.0-30.0 kya). Within the E-V68 sub-clade, the M78 mutation arose in a time windowbetween 20.3 kya (95% CI 16.2-25.4 kya) and 14.M8 kya (95% CI 11.6-18.5 kya), namely the TMRCA for E-V68 and E-78, respectively. The TMRCA of E-V13 chromosomes (8.1 kya;95% CI 5.6-10.8 kya) is consistent with a previous hypothesis about a post-Neolithicexpansion of this haplogroup in Europe (Cruciani et al 2004; 2007).(unquote)

Another thing is that many past papers have been quoted and refered to so I very much doubt if anyone can say that previous findings could be considered obsolete

Angela
28-06-15, 16:09
When BB entered Italy , it mixed with Remedello and became Polada culture

Well, the problem is that Remedello people are still EEF, so it would appear that Gimbutas was wrong, or these were very atypical "Indo-Europeans."

Angela
28-06-15, 20:23
According to the new Trombetta et al paper, it is M78 which is held to have arisen in North Africa, not E-V13.

From the paper:
"A northern African location is favored for the node defining the M78 subclade (posterior probability O.76) supporting the previous hypothesis of Cruciani et al (2007).

As to their comment about E-V13, Maleth has already quoted it.

I think it's also just as well to clear up any confusion about E-V13. A sample was indeed found in a Neolithic sample from 5,000 BC. It was in the Avellaner Cave in Catalonia.

This is the link to the paper:
http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255.full.pdf?with-ds=yes

This is the table where it is clearly labeled as E-V13:
7341

It also so appears in Jean Manco's online table of ancient DNA:
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/europeanneolithicdna.shtml

This is why the author said that it was definitely related to the E-V13 in the Balkans.

7342


This is the map of the current distribution of E-V13. It may not be totally current, but the general parameters are clear.

So, we do indeed know that E-V13, and moreover an E-V13 related to the E-V13 now present in the Aegean and surrounding areas, was present in Neolithic Europe 5,000 BC in a Cardial context. Once again, Cardial was an east to west Neolithic migration that began in the Aegean and/or the Balkan area.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif

Given all of that, until some new piece of ancient DNA is proffered which would change the picture, the movement into Europe of E-V13 would seem to have been from east to west and probably during the Neolithic, as numerous scholars have posited.

I also think it has to be borne in mind that TMRCA should not be conflated with "date of arrival". The particular TMRCA of a certain group could be consistent with the arrival of a lineage long before.

Maleth
28-06-15, 20:58
According to the new Trombetta et al paper, it is M78 which is held to have arisen in North Africa, not E-V13.

From the paper:
"A northern African location is favored for the node defining the M78 subclade (posterior probability O.76) supporting the previous hypothesis of Cruciani et al (2007).

Indeed its a confirmation of an earlier paper, also Battaglia et al (2008) is still very relevant and the recent paper says nothing in contradiction.

This what Steve Bird (author of the Roman theory for E-V13 in Britian) has to say on the new paper from the E-V13 forum:-

(quote) We can improve on this estimate further, however, by recalling that a V13 aDNA skeleton, carbon dated to 7 kya, was found in northeastern Spain recently. This gives us a firm lower boundary for the appearance of V13. Since it is unlikely that the skeleton found in the Spanish cave was the founder of the V13 subclade, an older date of coalescence must be found. We can now say that V13 is AT LEAST 7,000 years old, and perhaps as old as 10,800 years old. The central estimate of 8.1 kya for the TMRCA actually fits quite nicely with the appearance of the V13 skeleton on the Mediterranean coast 7 kya. (It should also be noted that the rho estimate barely overlaps the known 7 kya lower fence but just barely, with the upper 95% CI at 7.3 kya). We are left with a strong estimate of the TMRCA for V13 of 7-10.8 kya (97.5% CI, since we can ignore the portion of the tail that is younger than 7 kya). There is only a 2.5% probability that the "true" TMRCA is older than 10.8 kya and there is zero probability that it is younger than 7 kya.

Another interesting finding is that of Figure S4 (Supplementary Figures). Using a posterior probability of ancestral geographic location, the authors predict a nearly 100% probability of the geographic origin of V13 being in Europe. The analysis includes one Druze male subject (from Israel), which accounts for the extremely small sliver of Asian probability seen in the pie chart of S4. This is very significant because it moves the theoretical origin of V13 from the Levant/Anatolia to the Balkan peninsula proper. (/quote)

Garrick
28-06-15, 22:23
For me it is almost unbelievable that E-V13 carriers came from North Western Africa via Gibraltar. For now only result is founded in Spain and it makes confusion but maybe we watching this result too much. Of course we need new ancient results in different epochs.

I think that fundamental paper is still: Cruciani et al., 2007. According authors:

"The low E-V13 frequency (0.9%) and microsatellite variance (0.13) in northern Africa do not support an antiquity greater than in western Asia. Thus, the most parsimonious and plausible scenario is that E-V13 originated in western Asia about 11 ky ago, and its presence in northern Africa is the result of a more recent introgression. Under this hypothesis, E-V13 chromosomes sampled in western Asia and their coalescence estimate detect a likely Paleolithic exit out of Africa of E-M78 chromosomes devoid of the V13 mutation, which later occurred somewhere in the Near East/Anatolia. "

Angela
29-06-15, 17:58
There's now confirmed E1b1b1a1(2) in Neolithic Europe, so that part of the debate is over. There's also J2.

Anna Szcsenyi-Nagy
http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte/2015/4075/pdf/doc.pdf


Ed. Sorry, I didn't add that one is M78, and one may already be E-V13.

The cultures are Lengyel and Sopot.The date is 4780-4700 BC.

The rest are G2a, F*, I2a1, J2, and C.

R1b and I2a2 don't show up until the Bronze Age.

Here's the map so you can see where they were:
http://images.wikia.com/historyatlas/images/1/10/European_Middle_Neolithic.gif

LeBrok
29-06-15, 19:16
There's now confirmed E1b1b1a1(2) in Neolithic Europe, so that part of the debate is over. There's also J2.

Anna Szcsenyi-Nagy
http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte/2015/4075/pdf/doc.pdf


Ed. Sorry, I didn't add that one is M78, and one may already be E-V13.

The cultures are Lengyel and Sopot.The date is 4780-4700 BC.

The rest are G2a, F*, I2a1, J2, and C.

R1b and I2a2 don't show up until the Bronze Age.

Here's the map so you can see where they were:
http://images.wikia.com/historyatlas/images/1/10/European_Middle_Neolithic.gif
Yes, J2 is Neolithic! Sile, take notice, I was right!

Was it late Neolithic? I don't have time to go through this monstrous paper yet.

Angela
29-06-15, 19:59
Yes, J2 is Neolithic! Sile, take notice, I was right!

Was it late Neolithic? I don't have time to go through this monstrous paper yet.

Ok, ok, why don't you crow already?!:grin:

Seriously, kudos to you and Maciamo for holding out for it.

The J2 was from 4990-4850 BC. One was found in Lengyel and one in Sopot culture.

I'd love to say that it was late Neolithic because then I'd have come in under the wire by saying J2 could have come in during the Late Neolithic, but I've seen Lengyel described as a middle/late Neolithic culture.

Interestingly, Nagy suggests both of these haplogroups moved in from the southeast later than the other farmer yDna lineages. I'm going to post about it in the dedicated thread.

It is a monster paper. I've barely skimmed it and I've still spent an hour or two on it.

Alan
29-06-15, 20:11
There's now confirmed E1b1b1a1(2) in Neolithic Europe, so that part of the debate is over. There's also J2.

Anna Szcsenyi-Nagy
http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte/2015/4075/pdf/doc.pdf


Ed. Sorry, I didn't add that one is M78, and one may already be E-V13.

The cultures are Lengyel and Sopot.The date is 4780-4700 BC.

The rest are G2a, F*, I2a1, J2, and C.

R1b and I2a2 don't show up until the Bronze Age.

Here's the map so you can see where they were:
http://images.wikia.com/historyatlas/images/1/10/European_Middle_Neolithic.gif

So J2 was found as far as North Poland. But rather late Neolithic(4700). The core of J2 seems to have come in Bronze Age context though. It is not much of a suprise to find individual cases earlier, as was the case with other Haplogroups too. Wished to see autosomal data of this J2 individuals.

If J2 reached some parts of Europe during late Neolithic, than it might really be connected to the "West Asian" component of various calculators.

Sile
29-06-15, 20:11
Yes, J2 is Neolithic! Sile, take notice, I was right!

Was it late Neolithic? I don't have time to go through this monstrous paper yet.

Are you baiting again?

I have always agreed with my ALPGEN project manager ChrisR there was J2 ( as ChrisR is J2 ) in Neolithic europe................why did you include my name............can you give yourself an infraction for another insult on me.!

Sile
29-06-15, 20:15
Well, the problem is that Remedello people are still EEF, so it would appear that Gimbutas was wrong, or these were very atypical "Indo-Europeans."

And?

I have never believed like yourself the huge importance given to the hunters. I give more importance to farmers and herders

Angela
29-06-15, 20:39
And?

I have never believed like yourself the huge importance given to the hunters. I give more importance to farmers and herders

You must be the only poster here who thinks I "favor" hunters over farmers. :) From the subtext, I rather think most people think the opposite!

In actuality, I don't "favor" any one ancient population group over any other. It's not like placing bets on football teams, and always "favoring" the home team. Plus, which is the home team? We're all descended from all of them, if some more than others.

Anyway, I just want to know what happened. That's it. I don't play around with the data or the interpretations.

LeBrok
30-06-15, 01:28
Are you baiting again?

I have always agreed with my ALPGEN project manager ChrisR there was J2 ( as ChrisR is J2 ) in Neolithic europe................why did you include my name............can you give yourself an infraction for another insult on me.!
I was referring to your comment from about 2 weeks ago from another thread which said something like this: "LeBrok is never right". That's why I called your attention to an example where I was right.

HQ420832
02-07-15, 19:58
According to the new Trombetta et al paper, it is M78 which is held to have arisen in North Africa, not E-V13.

From the paper:
"A northern African location is favored for the node defining the M78 subclade (posterior probability O.76) supporting the previous hypothesis of Cruciani et al (2007).

As to their comment about E-V13, Maleth has already quoted it.
.

Yes maybe that E-V13 has arisen in Southern Europe around 8,500 years ago but its parent E-V1083 very likely migrated directly from North Africa to South Europe sometime betwen 8,500 and 15,000 years ago. Indeed, the most important from this paper is the discovery of E-V1083 (also a parent of E-V22) and the fact that its absence of E-V1083* in the Middle East makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis. But in any case, we know now for sure that Proto AfroAsiatic speakers were in Europe much longer before Indo-European invaders who cannot be considered as native europeans due to the fact they only arrived 4,500 years ago.

Salmon
03-07-15, 21:07
1) North Africans displaced by Eurasian migrants that invaded North Africa.


or

2) Coastal North African aquatic hunter/gatherers. Changing climate enticed them to move up the coasts fishing, avoiding inland non-African humans. They eventually got absorbed by inland Europeans and Coastal Europeans, then Eurasians who rolled in with Asian agriculture.

Angela
03-07-15, 21:35
Fascinating indeed, most especially the part about Eurasians invading North Africa in time for E-M78 to then make it all the way to the Balkans by 7000 BC.

I'd be most interested in reading the papers, and the evidence they cite, supporting this novel hypothesis. Just post the links and I'll be certain to read them over the week-end.

Salmon
03-07-15, 23:02
Yes maybe that E-V13 has arisen in Southern Europe around 8,500 years ago but its parent E-V1083 very likely migrated directly from North Africa to South Europe sometime betwen 8,500 and 15,000 years ago. Indeed, the most important from this paper is the discovery of E-V1083 (also a parent of E-V22) and the fact that its absence of E-V1083* in the Middle East makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis. But in any case, we know now for sure that Proto AfroAsiatic speakers were in Europe much longer before Indo-European invaders who cannot be considered as native europeans due to the fact they only arrived 4,500 years ago.

Yes maybe that E-V13 has arisen in Southern Europe around 8,500 years ago but its parent E-V1083 very likely migrated directly from North Africa to South Europe sometime betwen 8,500 and 15,000 years ago. Indeed, the most important from this paper is the discovery of E-V1083 (also a parent of E-V22) and the fact that its absence of E-V1083* in the Middle East makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis. But in any case, we know now for sure that Proto AfroAsiatic speakers were in Europe much longer before Indo-European invaders who cannot be considered as native europeans due to the fact they only arrived 4,500 years ago.

They may have not spoken proto-AfroAsiatic.

Berber language is in its own branch of the Afro-Asiatiic language tree but their language could have easily originated with early Eurasian migrants that reached North Africa in pre-history. Berbers have considerable Eurasian admixture.

Areas that speak Afro-Asiatic languages have a high degree of Eurasian influence.

Ike
03-07-15, 23:25
1) North Africans displaced by Eurasian migrants that invaded North Africa.

Also possible..

7349

http://originhunters.blogspot.com/2014/09/dna-mysteries-iberian-r1b-v88-in-africa.html

Sile
04-07-15, 00:24
You must be the only poster here who thinks I "favor" hunters over farmers. :) From the subtext, I rather think most people think the opposite!

In actuality, I don't "favor" any one ancient population group over any other. It's not like placing bets on football teams, and always "favoring" the home team. Plus, which is the home team? We're all descended from all of them, if some more than others.

Anyway, I just want to know what happened. That's it. I don't play around with the data or the interpretations.

The issue with hunters is that in these type of sites have vast number of ID's referring to many types of hunters, WHG, UHG, SHG etc etc........because no one has any clue on what this hunter represent.
We do not even know if the male line of farmers hunted and the females tended the crops, another variation

Sile
04-07-15, 00:39
Also possible..

7349

http://originhunters.blogspot.com/2014/09/dna-mysteries-iberian-r1b-v88-in-africa.html

i always find info on this site interesting, but have doubts on his historical tracking.

his latest 3 posts on AuDna is very good

Sile
04-07-15, 00:41
I believe that E-V13 is basically in majority a Pelasgian marker and a southern balkans marker , the one found in iberia is basically a "scout"

Sile
04-07-15, 00:44
I was referring to your comment from about 2 weeks ago from another thread which said something like this: "LeBrok is never right". That's why I called your attention to an example where I was right.

Ok, Np

But I also follow union of markers - LT , IJ etc........where did they split is what I search for, and since IJ where once in union and I is in Europe ( majority ), then J must be nearby

Salmon
05-07-15, 06:30
Pelasgians were people there before Greeks. They could be those G haplogroup dominated groups from the neolithic.

Garrick
05-07-15, 09:40
Pelasgians were people there before Greeks. They could be those G haplogroup dominated groups from the neolithic.

It would be interesting to discuss about original language (languages) of G2a carriers. Has someone idea?

Rethel
05-07-15, 13:02
It would be interesting to discuss about original language (languages) of G2a carriers. Has someone idea?

Originally probably something like kartwelian, but
during their travelings they could absorbed others
like, pontic, kaspic, semitic, or some unknown today.

But I guess that kartvelian will be the clue.

Garrick
05-07-15, 14:05
Pelasgians were people there before Greeks. They could be those G haplogroup dominated groups from the neolithic.


Originally probably something like kartwelian, byt
during their travelings they could absorbed others
like, pontic, kaspic, semitic, or some unknown today.

But I guess that kartvelian will be the clue.

Bravo! I read some authors who link Pelasgian with Kartvelian, what means that Pelasgians could be G2a people, and I wanted that someone has similar opinion here in forum without my suggestion.

Rethel
05-07-15, 17:21
Bravo! I read some authors who link Pelasgian with Kartvelian, what means that Pelasgians could be G2a people, and I wanted that someone has similar opinion here in forum without my suggestion.

With Pelasgians is some kind of problem, because, no one exactly know, what greeks authors have in mind when they wrote about this people - probably they themselves didn't knew. In mythology Pelasgians are sometimes some kind of Greeks, but sometimes they are showed as people different. So who they were exactly we dont know. BUT, this name is using as synonim pre-Greek settlemets - and very good! Before Greeks arrived people in this lands could be alleready mixed, but I uderstand, that the piont of all discussion is which gruop of people was the first? So I guess that it will be hg E, aspecially in southern part of Greece. In the north - who knows, it could be either I, G, or even J. Did the people E called themselves Pelasgians? I don't know, but some similarities between this name and some place-names in this region can in some part testify on behalf of that theory, because there are some vocal connections with Peleste and Pelishtim, ie Philistines. As it is known from egyptian and semitic sources, they were consider as migrants from Crete or some others aegean islands (like Kos) so it wouldnt be so strange if they were the settlers of others parts of the present Greece too. Btw, I dont remember exactly, but Philistines were pinted the same way as Egyptians were, so, they were similar in appirience, so, if they came from southern Greece, then the original people from that parts could be not only similar to egyptians but also has this special hg - E. :smile:

Garrick
05-07-15, 18:40
With Pelasgians is some kind of problem, because, no one exactly know, what greeks authors have in mind when they wrote abot this people - probably they themselves didn't knew. I mithology Pelasgians are sometimes some kind of Greeks, but sometimes they are showed as people different. So who they were exactly we dont know. BUT, this name is using as synonim pre-Greek settlemets - and very good! Before Greeks arrived people in this lands could be alleready mixed, but I uderstand, that the piont of all discussion is which gruop of people was the first? So I guess that it will be hg E, aspecially in southern part of Greece. In the north - who knows, it could be either I, G, or even J. Did the people E called themselves Pelasgians? I don't know, but some similarities between this name and some place-names in this region can in some part testify on behalf of that theory, because there are some vocal connections with Peleste and Pelishtim, ie Philistines. As it is known from egyptian and semitic sources, they were consider as migrants from Crete or some others aegean islands (like Kos) so it wouldnt be so strange if they were the settlers of others parts of the present Greece too. Btw, I dont remember exactly, but Philistines were pinted the same way as Egyptians were, so, they were similar in appirience, so, if they came from southern Greece, then the original people from that parts could be not only similar to egyptians but also has this special hg - E. :smile:

It is interesting, researchers reconstructed language Phaistos disk as Colchian Kartvelian/Caucasian!

Prof. Nana Shengelaila

On Decipherment of the Phaistos Disk and Linear A Inscriptions in Colchian Language by Gia Kvashilava

http://www.academia.edu/2545249/Prof._Nana_Shengelaia_2013._On_Decipherment_of_the _Phaistos_Disk_and_Linear_A_Inscriptions_in_Colchi an_Language_by_Gia_Kvashilava

The overview of the data of the ancient population of the Peloponnese (Pelasgia), Asia Minor, Aegean islands before the Indo-European migrations show that indigenous inhabitants of this area were of non-Indo-European and non-Semitic origin. According to some researchers (P. Kretschmer, F. Schachermeyr, J. Chadwick, E. J. Furnée, Th. V. Gamkrelidze, V. V. Ivanov and others) they were Proto-Kartvelian tribes whose language formed an influential substratum for the Greek dialect after the invasion of the Greek tribes of the Peloponnese and Eagean islands.

Besides, the analysis of archaeological, ethnological, historical, linguistic and biological material, the typological study of graphical qualities of Linear A granted well-grounded Linear A inscriptions in the Colchian language.

Angela
05-07-15, 19:22
This is a thread about genetics, specifically the origin of E-V13. Protracted discussions of linguistics are off topic.

Maleth
23-07-15, 10:33
While this has nothing to do with the origins of E-V13, i think its quite interesting and worth mentioning. E-V13 seems to have also been found as far as the Sakha Republic (Within Russian federation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakha_Republic in the Anabarsky region, with frequencies as high as 40%. The population is mostly made up of ethnics Yakuts (A turkic people) and Russians according to E-V13 forum.

http://community.haplozone.net/index.php?topic=3997.0

Italian Norman
11-10-15, 16:33
What is very interesting is that E-V1083* was found only in Eritrea (1.1%) and Sardinia (0.3%) and nowhere else among the 5 222 individuals from 116 populations from previous studies that were analysed.

So E-V13's parent clade (E-V1083) almost surely originated in East Africa, then from North Africa crossed the mediterranean to Sardinia. So the hypothesis that E-V13 and other E1b1b lineages came to the Balkans from the southern Levant via Anatolia during the Neolithic seems now obsolete... The absence of E-V1083* in the Middle East makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis.



E-M78

E-M78*
E-V1477
E-V1083.

E-V1083*. Found in Eritreans and Sardinians.
E-V13
E-V22


E-V1129

E-V12

E-V12*
E-V32


E-V264

E-V259. Found in North Cameroon.
E-V65









Most of the samples used by Trombetta et al. (2015) that represent West Asia are from a single country (Turkey; 291). This country is not exactly known to harbor a lot of E diversity. Instead those countries that needed more SNP resolution [Lebanon, Israel, Syria, Saudi Arabia; very ancient sub-clades have been found in these countries, like E-M96* and E-M35*; I would also have added Iran, where Di Cristofaro et al. 2013 found a case of E-M215*(xM35; I add also xM281 because I compared Y-STRs and found them to be completely different) in Khorasan] have been very poorly sampled. So until new studies define these paragroup cases in Asia you can't say that one sub-clade is absent from here and there. Also, note that V13 is not directly descended from V1083/Z1919, but there are two intermediate SNPs between V13 and V1083.

E-V1083
_E-L618
__E-CTS1975
___E-V13

Both L618 and CTS1975 have been found only in Europe. The distance between the age of formation of V1083 and L618 is only 1200 years (13.4 kya and 12.2 kya), so this brings the place of origin of Z1919 closer to Europe than to Africa.
Let's add that the lack of E(-V13/L618) and at the same time the presence of all other "Neolithic European lineages" (G2a2, H, J2) in Early Neolithic Anatolia just reported in a study a few hours ago strengthens the European Mesolithic theory for V13 (L618). I suggest that V13 was an isolated Balkanic Mesolithic lineage that was absorbed by incoming farmers in the Balkans and was carried all over Europe with them.

Arban Hoti
25-11-15, 19:39
what do we know about Pelasgians , well i'm in no way an expert but you can look it up yourself , in Greek history it says that when Dan the Danoi came from Aegyptus in Argos they met king Pelasg and asked him if they could stay and he(dumb) asked an oracle and those magicians said yes they should stay , the people of Pelasg were called kArbanoi their tongue karba audan later bArbarian tongue , now what do we learn from this , 1st the Pelasgians were called so because of the name of king Pelasgus meaning the kings people the Pelagusians / Pelasgians 2nd their real name was Arbanoi because till this day some languages of north/east Africa put an C in front of every A 3rd the Danoi must be J people because they are the tribe or a part of the tribe of Dan , now we must try to put things together , when the Sea people (pelasgians) went to the Levant their first and most important person/leader is called Arba (Arbanoi) these are the Philistines .So the name of all these people is Ar with the suffix B Ba Br Bn etc .About the C in front of an A i think and believe that Carthage is in reality Artage Art as in Tart - Tartan Dardan , but since i saw that the name Latin comes from Italia 'Lati-n n-itaL' i see that Carth is Thrac 'Carth-thraC' , so two are the names of Ar , Ar-b and Ar-t .

Sile
25-11-15, 19:45
what do we know about Pelasgians , well i'm in no way an expert but you can look it up yourself , in Greek history it says that when Dan the Danoi came from Aegyptus in Argos they met king Pelasg and asked him if they could stay and he(dumb) asked an oracle and those magicians said yes they should stay , the people of Pelasg were called kArbanoi their tongue karba audan later bArbarian tongue , now what do we learn from this , 1st the Pelasgians were called so because of the name of king Pelasgus meaning the kings people the Pelagusians / Pelasgians 2nd their real name was Arbanoi because till this day some languages of north/east Africa put an C in front of every A 3rd the Danoi must be J people because they are the tribe or a part of the tribe of Dan , now we must try to put things together , when the Sea people (pelasgians) went to the Levant their first and most important person/leader is called Arba (Arbanoi) these are the Philistines .So the name of all these people is Ar with the suffix B Ba Br Bn etc .About the C in front of an A i think and believe that Carthage is in reality Artage Art as in Tart - Tartan Dardan , but since i saw that the name Latin comes from Italia 'Lati-n n-itaL' i see that Carth is Thrac 'Carth-thraC' , so two are the names of Ar , Ar-b and Ar-t .

Pelasgians in majority where J2 and E markers only

Phyrgians are J2 and G2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygians

Sile
25-11-15, 19:48
But the influence of E people from Balkan was much erliAr .Watch this documentary before you read anything https://youtu.be/wJdB8ZEo40I

Egypt Copt Misir Pharaoh Narmer Sadet Menes Amen Ra Thot Ma-at Africa Berber Neger(nigger/negro) have all a meaning in Arbanian so called Albanian tongue . QyP in Arb means 'jar' those ancient vases made of clay to KeeP materials together , and this is what the Nile delta does , KeePing people together , even the form of a jar/vase is like the Nile Delta .https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pottery_of_ancient_Greece#/media/File:Skyphos_genius_animals_Louvre_MNB2030.jpghttp s://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nile_Delta#/media/File:Nile_delta_landsat_false_color.jpg Its a CuP , KaP in Arbanian means to catch .CoPtic the CoPts , if the name was Ekapt than it means to KeeP things together people/land and or 'that' what was CaPtured by Narmer/Menes. Miser we say to corn , and we know how fertile that land is . The first king of Egypt Narmer , Ner in Arb means 'hoNER' , 'mer' means to take , Nar-mer = he who takes honor ,but i believe that kings name was Namman , Nam in Arb means something more than honor ,maybe renown , Man means to hold a holder , Naman = he who holds honor+ , the Eng word 'name' comes from nam because every persons name is his honor . Pharaoh , Far in Arb means 'seed' the word for fertile field is Ar , the Eng words Farmer means 'he who takes seeds' , Arable land means land that you can work = Ar ,so Far comes from Ar F-Ar=seed, the Norvegian/Swedish word for father Far comes from Arb Far/seed because the father holds the seed , ON means ours in Arb , Ionian Sea means 'our sea' ,Fara On (pharaoh) means 'our seed'. Sadet , Sa means like / how , Det(thet) means Sea , Sa-Det = like the Sea , and its all about the Nile flood = Sa Det like the Sea not a river anymore .https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satetand this name is still alive in Dardania where the Aryans came from , and look at this kings hat .https://youtu.be/YMMswQoDWDohttps://youtu.be/D_9uS7lCXW4 Men in Arb means Mind , the root of this word comes from M to hold and En to be in constant movement (move-M-EN-t) , so M-EN to keep the thoughts together = Mind , Es means Est 'it is' , Menes 'he is mindful' clever.'A' means 'it is' in Arb , A Men means 'its mind' , Ra means to fall falling , A Men Ra means 'the mind(knowledge) fell' , but this is the SECRET of what happened , Menes was Naman and someone killed or took over the land/kingdom of Men and this new system is called A-Men Ra 'Menes fell' .And history repeats itself , we Arbanians made modern Egypt ,and after we fought and worked and build it ,than the black/brown/native people take it from us with force or by other means.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_of_Egypthttps://youtu.be/TdGIrj-gVw0Thot means to say to tell something , to TAlk . Ma-at was responsible to measure , in Arb Mat means to measure ,Mas means measure in the past sense , the root of the word comes from M ma 'to hold' because every time measuring you need to hold a meter a stick a material x y to measure ,Mathematics comes from Mat to measure , and a person who measures hes/her self we call i/e Matur(mature) . A 'its' , Frik means Fear / scary , Africa means 'its scary' , and all that desert without water and deadly snakes scorpions , and all those deadly animals 'its scary' Berber is Arber our name , like k-Arbanoi and b-Arbarian. Neger ,the word for wild in Arb is Eger , N means 'in' ,N'Eger means 'in'wild" wilder wildish not straight wild but wilder than other people. "The true history of mankind will be written only when Albanians participate in it's writing."- Maximilian LambertzArDi.

E came into the balkans ia the levant and before that , Egypt and before that east-africa

Arban Hoti
28-11-15, 04:47
Sile. it is impossible for E to come from Africa , because all evidence points to influence from Balkan/Europe to Levant/Egypt/Africa , to many people are recorded to be from the north , the Arian/Tartanian who conquered all Asia , the Franks Brits Etrurian/Italian Kalabri Bryges/Phygians even the Deut/Teuton/Germans and those who went to Africa are all from Asia minor Balkan , to many people to much influence , they needed time to develop to this level , and the biggest Argument is 'how is it possible that the people who came from Africa are not to be found in Africa in their natural state' .
I want to tell you something , when i first started to look into this i said to myself maybe i'm not Arbanian , so i'm speaking from and scientific point not from an nationalistic one .

Sile
28-11-15, 07:25
Sile. it is impossible for E to come from Africa , because all evidence points to influence from Balkan/Europe to Levant/Egypt/Africa , to many people are recorded to be from the north , the Arian/Tartanian who conquered all Asia , the Franks Brits Etrurian/Italian Kalabri Bryges/Phygians even the Deut/Teuton/Germans and those who went to Africa are all from Asia minor Balkan , to many people to much influence , they needed time to develop to this level , and the biggest Argument is 'how is it possible that the people who came from Africa are not to be found in Africa in their natural state' .
I want to tell you something , when i first started to look into this i said to myself maybe i'm not Arbanian , so i'm speaking from and scientific point not from an nationalistic one .

There is no Haplogroup from Europe..............the Neanderthals where in Europe first

Sile
28-11-15, 22:38
Again , all these tribes like Pelasgian/Bryges/Phrygians/Etrurians all over south Europe and north Africa and Tartan/Dardan/Troyan/Kirat/Tartar/Bujar all over north Europe and Asia are all white and are called Arban(Albanian) and these people were key people in forming civilizations their linguistic influence is in all continents and we can trace them back only in the three peninsulas Asia minor Balkan and Italy , maybe this is where the name Tribal came from , these people to become so influential and so many in numbers they needed time , the humans spread from Mesopotamia , it is so easy to see this , the Indians went through Persia to India , the Chinese went the same way but more north to China , and we can see how they met in Indonesia , Indonesia means Indochinese they mixed, the blacks went to Africa and the whites to the North , the Arabs are a mix of Ar/white and black thats why they are called Arab , the word for equal in Arbanian is Barabart and because we went to India as Tartans/Dardans the word for equal in Hindi is Barabara , the roots of this word are , B make/made Ar our name A-B father/maker Art golden/art ,so B-Ar-A-B-Art means it was made from Ar the father a golden art , when you take the white color and mix it with black you get the middle brown = Arab race , i am totaly against mixing and i hate it but this was Done By God , and the wisdom behind this is to make a balance between the White and black people , and thats why the Prophets were sent to the Semites/Arabs because if they were sent to the whites the blacks would never accept them and vice versa , so every continent has to have their own Y Haplogroup and E fits perfectly into E-urope .

In regards to E
at best the first of E seems to be in Iberia E-78
The E in the balkans arrived late , most likely "stuck" ( as krefter put it ) in the levant and Egypt , no E have been found in the balkans in Neolithic times................if it has , let me know as I might have missed it.

In regards to arabs............was any mentioned by Roman historians in north Africa and the levant,?? all I read is
Numidians = morrocco and algeria
Liby-phoenicians/carthagians = tunisia and Libya
Egyptians = egypt
Philistines, Canaanites, Hebrews, phoenicians = the levant
Syria = left over Assyrians and hittities
Iraq = mix of sumerians, babylonians and kurds

I do not even recall Bedouins ..............but do recall a Roman wall being built in Algeria to protect their MAIN wheat growing area from people from modern Mali

Pelagsians = modern macedonia and northern greece
Phygians = central Anatolia ............still fighting the Lydians in 500BC , when Lydians are supposed to be etruscans.
Bryges = 2 places , serbia and western austria
I do not know why you bring this up

Angela
28-11-15, 23:35
Can we leave the realms of fantasy and get back to E-V13? It or its immediate predecessor E-M78 was found not only in Spain, but in the mid-to-late Neolithic Sopot and Lengyel Cultures, as we've been discussing for months.

http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte/2015/4075/pdf/doc.pdf

Sile
29-11-15, 00:21
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_Peninsula#Etymology

these 2 markers stand out



J1-M267
44.01



J2-M172
11.32

ukaj
29-11-15, 13:48
In regards to E
at best the first of E seems to be in Iberia E-78
The E in the balkans arrived late , most likely "stuck" ( as krefter put it ) in the levant and Egypt , no E have been found in the balkans in Neolithic times................if it has , let me know as I might have missed it.

In regards to arabs............was any mentioned by Roman historians in north Africa and the levant,?? all I read is
Numidians = morrocco and algeria
Liby-phoenicians/carthagians = tunisia and Libya
Egyptians = egypt
Philistines, Canaanites, Hebrews, phoenicians = the levant
Syria = left over Assyrians and hittities
Iraq = mix of sumerians, babylonians and kurds

I do not even recall Bedouins ..............but do recall a Roman wall being built in Algeria to protect their MAIN wheat growing area from people from modern Mali

Pelagsians = modern macedonia and northern greece
Phygians = central Anatolia ............still fighting the Lydians in 500BC , when Lydians are supposed to be etruscans.
Bryges = 2 places , serbia and western austria
I do not know why you bring this up sile tests done in thracian tombs this year reveal that the thracians are eb1b.aka ev-13. read artical. https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/09/01/more-y-snp-calls-from-iron-and-bronze-age-bulgaria/ E-V13 did not come from anywhere but the Balkans. Its immediate ancestors are Mesolithic Balkanic

Angela
20-12-15, 16:25
There has been quite enough hijacking of this thread. One infraction has already been issued for posting off topic material. This is not an Albanian language thread or an Albanian genetics thread. From now on, every single off topic posting will result in an infraction. I will also delete the posts.

I've also issued an infraction for provocative behavior. I will issue more if that behavior continues as well.

Take this stuff to the Balkanian disagreements thread so other people don't have to read this nonsense and serious genetics threads aren't ruined.

LeBrok
20-12-15, 19:21
Off topic posts moved here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30592-Balkanian-disagreements

Arban Hoti
20-12-15, 22:37
Bye bye : D

Maleth
14-07-16, 15:02
More interesting insight on the origins of E-V13

The Mesolithic E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 foragers

Several theories about the origin of E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 and its spread have been proposed, and all are, in a certain way, linked to the Neolithic farmers. Early studies suggested that the mutation was brought to the Balkans together with early farming technologies (Semino et al., 2004 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876#ajhb22876-bib-0039)). Battaglia et al. (2009 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876#ajhb22876-bib-0005)) proposed an earlier arrival of this lineage in Europe (during the late Mesolithic period), followed by its Neolithic dispersal into Europe with the spread of farming. Most recently, King et al. (2011 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876#ajhb22876-bib-0019)) suggested that E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 may trace the demographic and socio-cultural impact of Greek colonization.
Researchers still debate the fate and interplay between pioneering farmers from the Near East and local Mesolithic societies and search for the clearest signal of their interaction. However, the phylogeography and temporal evidence supports the idea that E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 arose in Southern Europe, with peak frequencies among the Albanians and Greeks (Semino et al., 2004 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876#ajhb22876-bib-0039)) and with declining patterns towards the north. The lack of any plausible Middle Eastern source of E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 during the Early Neolithic or Bronze Age, together with the low STR variation observed in the Middle East, additionally bolsters this view (Battaglia et al., 2009 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876#ajhb22876-bib-0005); King et al., 2008 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876#ajhb22876-bib-0018)).
We support the scenario proposed by Battaglia et al. (2009 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876#ajhb22876-bib-0005)) and additionally strengthened by two recent studies that the Mediterranean route has had a pronounced role in the spread of farming (Lacan et al., 2011b (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876#ajhb22876-bib-0025); Paschoua et al., 2014 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876#ajhb22876-bib-0030)) and that local South European populations adopted the new technology through their contact with Near Eastern migrants and spread it further into the European area. The high diversity of the E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 obtained in this study supports the cultural diffusion theory that the clade originated in the neighboring area of Southern Europe and spread only after populations adopted farming from Near Eastern pioneers using leapfrog colonization in the Aegean/Adriatic (Richards, 2003 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876#ajhb22876-bib-0034); Forenbaher and Miracle, 2005 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876#ajhb22876-bib-0009)). Lacan et al. (2011b (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876#ajhb22876-bib-0025)) and Paschoua et al. (2014 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876#ajhb22876-bib-0030)) also concluded that the Mediterranean route had even greater influence on the peopling of Southern Europe during the Neolithic transition than the Central European one, based on autosomal, mitochondrial and Y chromosome DNA analysis, giving even more importance to this lineage.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876

Seems like past papers are far from being obsolete in regards to the subject

Angela
14-07-16, 16:47
More interesting insight on the origins of E-V13

The Mesolithic E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 foragers

Several theories about the origin of E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 and its spread have been proposed, and all are, in a certain way, linked to the Neolithic farmers. Early studies suggested that the mutation was brought to the Balkans together with early farming technologies (Semino et al., 2004 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876#ajhb22876-bib-0039)). Battaglia et al. (2009 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876#ajhb22876-bib-0005)) proposed an earlier arrival of this lineage in Europe (during the late Mesolithic period), followed by its Neolithic dispersal into Europe with the spread of farming. Most recently, King et al. (2011 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876#ajhb22876-bib-0019)) suggested that E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 may trace the demographic and socio-cultural impact of Greek colonization.
Researchers still debate the fate and interplay between pioneering farmers from the Near East and local Mesolithic societies and search for the clearest signal of their interaction. However, the phylogeography and temporal evidence supports the idea that E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 arose in Southern Europe, with peak frequencies among the Albanians and Greeks (Semino et al., 2004 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876#ajhb22876-bib-0039)) and with declining patterns towards the north. The lack of any plausible Middle Eastern source of E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 during the Early Neolithic or Bronze Age, together with the low STR variation observed in the Middle East, additionally bolsters this view (Battaglia et al., 2009 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876#ajhb22876-bib-0005); King et al., 2008 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876#ajhb22876-bib-0018)).
We support the scenario proposed by Battaglia et al. (2009 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876#ajhb22876-bib-0005)) and additionally strengthened by two recent studies that the Mediterranean route has had a pronounced role in the spread of farming (Lacan et al., 2011b (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876#ajhb22876-bib-0025); Paschoua et al., 2014 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876#ajhb22876-bib-0030)) and that local South European populations adopted the new technology through their contact with Near Eastern migrants and spread it further into the European area. The high diversity of the E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 obtained in this study supports the cultural diffusion theory that the clade originated in the neighboring area of Southern Europe and spread only after populations adopted farming from Near Eastern pioneers using leapfrog colonization in the Aegean/Adriatic (Richards, 2003 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876#ajhb22876-bib-0034); Forenbaher and Miracle, 2005 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876#ajhb22876-bib-0009)). Lacan et al. (2011b (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876#ajhb22876-bib-0025)) and Paschoua et al. (2014 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876#ajhb22876-bib-0030)) also concluded that the Mediterranean route had even greater influence on the peopling of Southern Europe during the Neolithic transition than the Central European one, based on autosomal, mitochondrial and Y chromosome DNA analysis, giving even more importance to this lineage.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876

Seems like past papers are far from being obsolete in regards to the subject

They were on the right track, and all the naysayers have been proven wrong now that we've found related clades of E-V13 in Neolithic contexts in the Middle East.

Interesting that it got so lucky in Europe but the related clades are such a minority where they originally flourished.

I think Dienekes was right to point out that the expansion was in the Bronze Age, and I think it had something to do with the Greeks, so we can add Boattini et al to the mix of those who got it right, and who said that specific clade was rather late in Italy, and probably a good part of it was connected to Greek migrations. Another proof that some assertions I've seen lately that there is no Greek input into Italy are off the mark.

The Boattini papers look even better with the passage of time:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28660-Distribution-of-E1b1b-subclades-in-Italy-(Boattini-et-al-)?highlight=Boattini

Almost all the "E" in northern Italy is E-V13 related except for one strange founder effect. It's a big chunk of the "E" in southern Italy as well. (Strange paucity of E-M81 as well, rather down playing the role of the Moorish invasions in that area.)

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29842-southern-Italian-paper-2014?highlight=Boattini

I do still wonder when all the E-V13 in southern Germany and the Tyrol arrived, and from where. There's no record of actual Greek migration there.

Maleth
14-07-16, 17:26
I do still wonder when all the E-V13 in southern Germany and the Tyrol arrived, and from where. There's no record of actual Greek migration there.

Good question, and also the Scandinavian average of 3%. There was no known Roman settlements there. Maybe one day we get a clearer hint of how it got there.

bicicleur
14-07-16, 17:51
They were on the right track, and all the naysayers have been proven wrong now that we've found related clades of E-V13 in Neolithic contexts in the Middle East.

Interesting that it got so lucky in Europe but the related clades are such a minority where they originally flourished.

I think Dienekes was right to point out that the expansion was in the Bronze Age, and I think it had something to do with the Greeks, so we can add Boattini et al to the mix of those who got it right, and who said that specific clade was rather late in Italy, and probably a good part of it was connected to Greek migrations. Another proof that some assertions I've seen lately that there is no Greek input into Italy are off the mark.

The Boattini papers look even better with the passage of time:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28660-Distribution-of-E1b1b-subclades-in-Italy-(Boattini-et-al-)?highlight=Boattini

Almost all the "E" in northern Italy is E-V13 related except for one strange founder effect. It's a big chunk of the "E" in southern Italy as well. (Strange paucity of E-M81 as well, rather down playing the role of the Moorish invasions in that area.)

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29842-southern-Italian-paper-2014?highlight=Boattini

I do still wonder when all the E-V13 in southern Germany and the Tyrol arrived, and from where. There's no record of actual Greek migration there.

TRMCA of E-V13 is 4.3 ka which is 600-700 years before the arrival of the Mycenians in Greece
so there may have been some of them among the Mycenians, hence the E-V13 in S Italy
some others must have arrived elsewhere and then to Tyrol or s Germany
the Mycenians had swords and chariotts and horse bits when they arrived in Greece ca 1650 BC
short before that the same gear arrived in the Carpathian Basin, coming from the western Pontic steppe
so I guess E-V13 4.3 ka was somewhere in the western Pontic steppe
remember 4.3 ka E-V13 was not a population, it was just 1 single male ancestor of all E-V13
ca 3.3 ka most of the western steppe population were ousted by the Cimmerians (Srubnaya people coming from further east)

I think this is a scenario that could explain todays E-V13 distribution

Angela
14-07-16, 18:12
I would have thought E-V13 was more likely to have been in Greece when the Mycenaneans arrived, and then absorbed by them, and the TMRCA would allow for that, wouldn't it?

Or if not Greece itself, perhaps in Cucuteni-Tripolyte? How would it have gotten all the way to the steppe?

Fustan
14-07-16, 19:02
In Northern Albanian areas.

bicicleur
14-07-16, 19:18
I would have thought E-V13 was more likely to have been in Greece when the Mycenaneans arrived, and then absorbed by them, and the TMRCA would allow for that, wouldn't it?

Or if not Greece itself, perhaps in Cucuteni-Tripolyte? How would it have gotten all the way to the steppe?

Cucuteni is another possibility.
The steppe maybe as a trader along the Black Sea shores.
Allready 5 ka there was trade between Aegean and Black Sea.
The spread from Greece would not explain how far north some E-V13 got.
The starting point for E-V13 seems to me somewhere northeast of Greece.

Also strange : some E-618 bloke, ancestral to E-V13 made it to Latvia

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/

Sile
14-07-16, 20:16
TRMCA of E-V13 is 4.3 ka which is 600-700 years before the arrival of the Mycenians in Greece
so there may have been some of them among the Mycenians, hence the E-V13 in S Italy
some others must have arrived elsewhere and then to Tyrol or s Germany
the Mycenians had swords and chariotts and horse bits when they arrived in Greece ca 1650 BC
short before that the same gear arrived in the Carpathian Basin, coming from the western Pontic steppe
so I guess E-V13 4.3 ka was somewhere in the western Pontic steppe
remember 4.3 ka E-V13 was not a population, it was just 1 single male ancestor of all E-V13
ca 3.3 ka most of the western steppe population were ousted by the Cimmerians (Srubnaya people coming from further east)

I think this is a scenario that could explain todays E-V13 distribution

I read once, that E-V13 was ONE of the Hittite markers , along with R1b and others

I do not recall it in northern Italy or southern Germany in greater numbers than the other E of E-L117

Garrick
15-07-16, 01:22
TRMCA of E-V13 is 4.3 ka which is 600-700 years before the arrival of the Mycenians in Greece
so there may have been some of them among the Mycenians, hence the E-V13 in S Italy
some others must have arrived elsewhere and then to Tyrol or s Germany
the Mycenians had swords and chariotts and horse bits when they arrived in Greece ca 1650 BC
short before that the same gear arrived in the Carpathian Basin, coming from the western Pontic steppe
so I guess E-V13 4.3 ka was somewhere in the western Pontic steppe
remember 4.3 ka E-V13 was not a population, it was just 1 single male ancestor of all E-V13
ca 3.3 ka most of the western steppe population were ousted by the Cimmerians (Srubnaya people coming from further east)

I think this is a scenario that could explain todays E-V13 distribution

Yes, it can be true. G2a is lineage which we can see in Neolithic sites throughout Europe.

E-V13 in Europe is in Bronze age. It could come from Anatolia and one logical direction is over the Caucasus and steppe. Your argumentation can explain E-V13 as minor haplogroup in many Central and North European nations, including Slavic people. This means that E-V13 have been brought with Indo-Europeans in Europe as part of IE expansion.

Of course part E-V13 could come from Anatolia to Europe via sea, and probably today's E-V13 carriers in Greece, and it is possible in Southern Italy and Malta are from this population. But main part of E-V13 in Europe probably came with Indo-Europeans and in way how you argue.

Angela
15-07-16, 03:45
Just so we can visualize it, this is the Eupedia map for E-V13. I may be wrong, but it doesn't look to me like the major spread is from the steppe Indo-Europeans moving from east to west from the steppe across central Europe, for example, and then down into southern Europe. It wouldn't explain Spain for one thing. It looks like a migration into Cyprus, then Crete, then mainland Greece, then the rest of the Balkans ( a founder effect perhaps in Albania), and then a diffusion from there. The spread around the Crimea and Russia could very well be related to all the Greek trading colonies along the Black Sea in the first millennium BC. The higher levels in Aegean Turkey seem to me like back migration because of the Greek settlements there. In Italy it looks to me like Magna Graecia in the south (Boattini et al placed it around 300 BC), with perhaps additional movement later on from the Balkans into especially the east coast of Italy. Ralph and Coop pointed out in their IBD analysis that they believed the only significant IBD sharing of Italy with other areas in the last millenium or two was with the Balkans. The hot spots in Liguria and Venice could be explained by trade or other contacts with Greece, of which there were many. In southern France we had Massalia.




http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif

Angela
15-07-16, 03:55
I've also included a map of Greek trading areas around the Black Sea. They date from the eighth to the third century BC.

http://www.ancient.eu/uploads/images/108.jpg?v=1431030119

The other maps are of the distribution of J2b. I've often heard it said it matches E-V13, but I think there are some major differences. Bicicleur, if you read this, what is the TMRCA for that? In the second map the J2b is the bottom part of the graphic.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2b.gif

http://www.nature.com/article-assets/npg/srep/2016/160112/srep19157/images_hires/w926/srep19157-f1.jpg

Dinarid
15-07-16, 04:17
It seemed like E1b1b was brought by the Natufians and then developed locally to E-V13. Especially if we consider its distribution in the Middle East, among who seems to be Kurds.

Garrick
15-07-16, 07:43
Just so we can visualize it, this is the Eupedia map for E-V13. I may be wrong, but it doesn't look to me like the major spread is from the steppe Indo-Europeans moving from east to west from the steppe across central Europe, for example, and then down into southern Europe. It wouldn't explain Spain for one thing. It looks like a migration into Cyprus, then Crete, then mainland Greece, then the rest of the Balkans ( a founder effect perhaps in Albania), and then a diffusion from there. The spread around the Crimea and Russia could very well be related to all the Greek trading colonies along the Black Sea in the first millennium BC. The higher levels in Aegean Turkey seem to me like back migration because of the Greek settlements there. In Italy it looks to me like Magna Graecia in the south (Boattini et al placed it around 300 BC), with perhaps additional movement later on from the Balkans into especially the east coast of Italy. Ralph and Coop pointed out in their IBD analysis that they believed the only significant IBD sharing of Italy with other areas in the last millenium or two was with the Balkans. The hot spots in Liguria and Venice could be explained by trade or other contacts with Greece, of which there were many. In southern France we had Massalia.




http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif

This distribution shows that Bicicleur is right.

E-V13 is spread with IE invasion as minor lineage among Indo-Europeans.

No chance that Russians, Belarusians, Slovaks, Czechs, Poles etc. could have E-V13 if E-V13 only spread over Greek colonies in Black sea. It would be limited to coastal areas, not so far to the west and north. Even Scandinavians have E-V13.

Trojet
15-07-16, 16:13
I've also included a map of Greek trading areas around the Black Sea. They date from the eighth to the third century BC.

http://www.ancient.eu/uploads/images/108.jpg?v=1431030119

The other maps are of the distribution of J2b. I've often heard it said it matches E-V13, but I think there are some major differences. Bicicleur, if you read this, what is the TMRCA for that? In the second map the J2b is the bottom part of the graphic.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2b.gif

http://www.nature.com/article-assets/npg/srep/2016/160112/srep19157/images_hires/w926/srep19157-f1.jpg

In the Balkans and Europe J2b is overwhelmingly represented by J2b2-L283. Its TMRCA is 5900 ybp, but its main expansion started ca. 4400 ybp with main subclade J-Z597:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

This is pretty much the same TMRCA as E-V13 and they also have very similar distributions. However, I wouldn't connect much of the expansion of E-V13 with the ancient Greek world.
IMO, both of these (E-V13 and J2b2-L283) expanded ca. 4400 ybp out of northern Balkans (Danube area), but of course ancient DNA may tell us something else some day.

bicicleur
15-07-16, 18:20
I've also included a map of Greek trading areas around the Black Sea. They date from the eighth to the third century BC.

http://www.ancient.eu/uploads/images/108.jpg?v=1431030119

The other maps are of the distribution of J2b. I've often heard it said it matches E-V13, but I think there are some major differences. Bicicleur, if you read this, what is the TMRCA for that? In the second map the J2b is the bottom part of the graphic.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2b.gif

http://www.nature.com/article-assets/npg/srep/2016/160112/srep19157/images_hires/w926/srep19157-f1.jpg

TRMCA for J2b is old enough, 15.8 ka. But I don't know what are the J2b subclades in the Balkan.
Furthermore J2b is not found in any European anciant DNA, so I guess it arrived relatively late in Europe or in a confined area.

P.S. Trojet says here above :
In the Balkans and Europe J2b is overwhelmingly represented by J2b2-L283. Its TMRCA is 5900 ybp, but its main expansion started ca. 4400 ybp with main subclade J-Z597:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

He hints at the expansion of the subclade J-Z597 whose TRMCA is similar to the TRMCA of E-V13 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z597/

People from the steppe arrived in Spain while on the run for the Huns.
Look at this map of the migrations of the Alans during 4th-5th century AD

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Alani_map.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans

the Alans were a Scyth tribe

another possibility is that some E-V13 spread from the Carpathian Basin after 3.7 ka when people from the steppe arrived there
the Urnfield originated ca 3.3 ka in the Carpathian Basin but that didn't go any further than Catalunia

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/UrnfieldCulture.jpg

I guess there are just to many possibilities to explain the distribution of E-V13, even taking ino account the very late 4.3 ka TRMCA
the problem is to little is known about the distribution of the subclades of E-V13

Trojet
15-07-16, 18:26
TRMCA for J2b is old enough, 15.8 ka. But I don't know what are the J2b subclades in the Balkan.
Furthermore J2b is not found in any European anciant DNA, so I guess it arrived relatively late in Europe or in a confined area.

People from the steppe arrived in Spain while on the run for the Huns.
Look at this map of the migrations of the Alans during 4th-5th century AD

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Alani_map.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans

the Alans were a Scyth tribe

another possibility is that some E-V13 spread from the Carpathian Basin after 3.7 ka when people from the steppe arrived there
the Urnfield originated ca 3.3 ka in the Carpathian Basin but that didn't go any further than Catalunia

I do agree that J2b-M102 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M102/) mutation is way too old to have anything informative. In addition it likely originated in the Near East.
But when it comes to Balkans/Europe, I already explained which J2b subclade is present and oldest by diversity there (J2b2-L283 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/)). Here it is again since it seems you have missed it:


In the Balkans and Europe J2b is overwhelmingly represented by J2b2-L283. Its TMRCA is 5900 ybp, but its main expansion started ca. 4400 ybp with main subclade J-Z597:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

This is pretty much the same TMRCA as E-V13 and they also have very similar distributions. However, I wouldn't connect much of the expansion of E-V13 with the ancient Greek world.
IMO, both of these (E-V13 and J2b2-L283) expanded ca. 4400 ybp out of northern Balkans (Danube area), but of course ancient DNA may tell us something else some day.

Angela
15-07-16, 18:27
In the Balkans and Europe J2b is overwhelmingly represented by J2b2-L283. Its TMRCA is 5900 ybp, but its main expansion started ca. 4400 ybp with main subclade J-Z597:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

This is pretty much the same TMRCA as E-V13 and they also have very similar distributions. However, I wouldn't connect much of the expansion of E-V13 with the ancient Greek world.
IMO, both of these (E-V13 and J2b2-L283) expanded ca. 4400 ybp out of northern Balkans (Danube area), but of course ancient DNA may tell us something else some day.

Well, that's certainly a better alternative for E-V13 than out of the Pontic-Caspian steppe, in my opinion, which wouldn't explain the particular hot spots of E-V13 in Spain for example. Also, based on IBD there is very little Alan or other barbarian invasion dna in Spain. (post fall of Rome) Neither does it explain the E-V13 in Italy for the most part, or the hot spot around Marseilles. Indeed, Boattini dated E-V13 in Italy to around 300 BC.

The issue of where it originated, if in Europe, and from whence it first spread, are both separate from a discussion as to whether is spread in the first millennium with Greek colonization. I could see it arising in more northern areas of the Balkans than Greek proper given where we found that ancient sample of a related clade in Sopot.

Even as long ago as Cavalli Sforza it's been clear that there's been an out of Greece or at least out of the Balkans expansion autosomally.


Along with ancient dna, we need detailed subclade analysis on the level of that for R1b and R1a.
https://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/cavalli-sforza.png?w=500

Sile
15-07-16, 20:16
Yes, it can be true. G2a is lineage which we can see in Neolithic sites throughout Europe.

E-V13 in Europe is in Bronze age. It could come from Anatolia and one logical direction is over the Caucasus and steppe. Your argumentation can explain E-V13 as minor haplogroup in many Central and North European nations, including Slavic people. This means that E-V13 have been brought with Indo-Europeans in Europe as part of IE expansion.

Of course part E-V13 could come from Anatolia to Europe via sea, and probably today's E-V13 carriers in Greece, and it is possible in Southern Italy and Malta are from this population. But main part of E-V13 in Europe probably came with Indo-Europeans and in way how you argue.

on E-V13 ...............prehistoric in Cyprus

Conclusions: Analyses of Cypriot haplogroup data are consistent with two stages of prehistoric settlement. E-V13 and E-M34 are widespread, and PCA suggests sourcing them to the Balkans and Levant/Anatolia, respectively. The persistent pre-Greek component is represented by elements of G2-U5(xL30) haplogroups: U5*, PF3147, and L293. J2b-M205 may contribute also to the pre-Greek strata. The majority of R1b-Z2105 lineages occur in both the westernmost and easternmost districts. Distinctively, sub-haplogroup R1b- M589 occurs only in the east. The absence of R1b- M589 lineages in Crete and the Balkans and the presence in Asia Minor are compatible with Late Bronze Age influences from Anatolia rather than from Mycenaean Greeks.
Voskarides et al., Y-chromosome phylogeographic analysis of the Greek-Cypriot population reveals elements consistent with Neolithic and Bronze Age settlements (http://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s13323-016-0032-8/fulltext.html), Investigative Genetics, 20167:1, DOI: 10.1186/s13323-016-0032-8

bicicleur
15-07-16, 20:25
@ Angela & Trojet

I don't know what expansions into Europe there were from the northern Balkans after 4.3 ka
Several expansions started from the Carpathian Basin
Amongst them the Celtic Urnfield and the Italic speaking people.

Furthermore ca 3.7 ka steppe people arrived in the Carpathian Basin with chariots, trained horses and swords.
About 50 or 100 years later the Mycenians arrived with the same items in Greece. But in the Balkans it arrived not.
It is hypothesized all this is has its origins in the Catacomb culture in the steppes, who where later replaced by the Srubnaya people (ancestral to the Cimmerians).

Before calibrated radiocarbon dating existed it was taught chariots, horse bits and swords were introduced in the Carpatian Basin by the Mycenians, but accurate carbon dating showed this was not the case.

source : 'Europe between the Oceans' by Barry Cunliffe, a book I can recommend.

Shetop
18-07-16, 05:43
They were on the right track, and all the naysayers have been proven wrong now that we've found related clades of E-V13 in Neolithic contexts in the Middle East.

How do you define an E-V13 related clade and what exactly have we found in the Middle East aDNA?

Actually, what has so far been found in Neolithic contexts in the Middle East is not even close to prove that E-V13 entered Europe from there. I see you've been active on this forum long time, so it is a surprise you wrote such an amateur statement.

Angela
18-07-16, 06:44
How do you define an E-V13 related clade and what exactly have we found in the Middle East aDNA?

Actually, what has so far been found in Neolithic contexts in the Middle East is not even close to prove that E-V13 entered Europe from there. I see you've been active on this forum long time, so it is a surprise you wrote such an amateur statement.

So how did it get to Europe? In the mesolithic, straight from Africa? It's too young. That's why I think it might actually have formed in Europe, but the trail leads back to the Near East.

Look, if you're one of those people who believe that the Ottomans brought all these evil E-V13 people to the holy, Orthodox, white, Slavic Balkans to destroy us all, just let me know so I can ignore the post. Do I have the subtext right or am I maligning you unjustly? Am I confusing you with someone else? If so, I apologize.

God, I get tired of this sometimes. Thank goodness for some of our sane, intelligent and funny members who I would miss if I left. (You know who you are...:))

Maleth
18-07-16, 14:23
Actually, what has so far been found in Neolithic contexts in the Middle East is not even close to prove that E-V13 entered Europe from there. I see you've been active on this forum long time, so it is a surprise you wrote such an amateur statement.

In any case, wouldn't it be more sensible to see what the professionals have to say about the subject? were the vast majority state and reconfirm their positions?

E-V13 and ancient migrations[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_E-V68&action=edit&section=12)]The apparent movement of E-M78 lineages from the Near East to Europe, and their subsequent rapid expansion, make its E-V13 sub-clade a particularly interesting subject for speculation about ancient human migrations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#E-V13_and_ancient_migrations

Shetop
27-07-16, 14:31
So how did it get to Europe? In the mesolithic, straight from Africa? It's too young. That's why I think it might actually have formed in Europe, but the trail leads back to the Near East.

Look, if you're one of those people who believe that the Ottomans brought all these evil E-V13 people to the holy, Orthodox, white, Slavic Balkans to destroy us all, just let me know so I can ignore the post. Do I have the subtext right or am I maligning you unjustly? Am I confusing you with someone else? If so, I apologize.

God, I get tired of this sometimes. Thank goodness for some of our sane, intelligent and funny members who I would miss if I left. (You know who you are...:))

Here are two posts I wrote on that subject:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31651-E1b1b1-and-J2-in-Balkans-and-Italy?p=469012#post469012
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31763-Distribution-map-of-Y-DNA-and-mtDNA-haplogroup-in-and-around-Europe-circa-8000-BCE?p=472094#post472094

There are at least 50 ancient Y-DNA samples from SE Europe, Anatolia and Near East together. None of them is E-L618.
Only one of them is E-M78 and it is from Jordan. However E-L618 already existed at the time when that man lived which disqualifies it as potential ancestor. Knowing how wide E-M78 is distributed today that particular sample says almost nothing new about how E-V13 entered Europe.

If one day it becomes a fact that there are no E-L618(xV13) men living outside of Europe today, for me it would be a hard proof that V13 mutation happened inside Europe.

Shetop
27-07-16, 14:33
In any case, wouldn't it be more sensible to see what the professionals have to say about the subject? were the vast majority state and reconfirm their positions?

E-V13 and ancient migrations[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_E-V68&action=edit&section=12)]

The apparent movement of E-M78 lineages from the Near East to Europe, and their subsequent rapid expansion, make its E-V13 sub-clade a particularly interesting subject for speculation about ancient human migrations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#E-V13_and_ancient_migrations




Several years ago professionals also claimed that R1b originated in Iberia.

oreo_cookie
27-07-16, 17:22
In Italy it looks to me like Magna Graecia in the south (Boattini et al placed it around 300 BC), with perhaps additional movement later on from the Balkans into especially the east coast of Italy.


http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif



I am not seeing this. It looks to follow a pattern of Illyrian settlement in Apulia (the Greek influence was mostly in the south near Salento), and in Sicily it definitely does not follow the pattern of Greek settlement, otherwise it should be highest around Syracuse and neighboring Ragusa and Catania. Instead, its highest frequency appears to be in central Sicily, in a belt from Enna across to Palermo. There was later Byzantine settlement in Enna, but if it was truly a marker of Greek settlement, shouldn't it be highest in southeast Sicily, coastal Calabria, and around Naples and not locked in the middle of Sicily?

Angela
27-07-16, 17:57
I am not seeing this. It looks to follow a pattern of Illyrian settlement in Apulia (the Greek influence was mostly in the south near Salento), and in Sicily it definitely does not follow the pattern of Greek settlement, otherwise it should be highest around Syracuse and neighboring Ragusa and Catania. Instead, its highest frequency appears to be in central Sicily, in a belt from Enna across to Palermo. There was later Byzantine settlement in Enna, but if it was truly a marker of Greek settlement, shouldn't it be highest in southeast Sicily, coastal Calabria, and around Naples and not locked in the middle of Sicily?

Perhaps you're privy to a new paper which elucidates who the Illyrians were precisely, and what uniparental lineages they carried? How could I have missed it? I'm absolutely agog to hear about it.

I'm even more excited to hear that there's a paper on Iron Age Greek genomes and a comparison of them with the colonists in Sicily. Do tell.

Perhaps you should write a paper yourself explaining your formula for determining that these Sicilian areas, all subject to Greek colonization, somehow differ in their amount of "Greek" ancestry. A word to the wise, however, all of your "samples" would be subject to rigorous scrutiny: they would be checked for place of origin, whether all four grandparents came from the same area, etc. Then, I'm afraid that your standard for determining "Greek" ancestry, absent some ancient Greek genomes, might face "heavy weather", particularly if the only basis for your claims is some admixture calculators on gedmatch. Do you have much experience with dstats and other formal statistical methods? As a last hurdle they would have to be able to replicate the results.

Go for it, though, I'll be sure to read it after it goes through peer review. Until then, this all seems to be sheer speculation.

If you have some new information about E-V13, perhaps some new subclade information and dating so that we can track it, that would be helpful.

oreo_cookie
27-07-16, 19:04
Go for it, though, I'll be sure to read it after it goes through peer review. Until then, this all seems to be sheer speculation.

I'd be more interested to seeing evidence of Greek colonization under Magna Graecia in inland Caltanissetta, Enna, and around Palermo. You claimed correlation between the distribution of E-V13 and that historical event, but I am not seeing that for neither Sicily nor for the rest of southern Italy based on the map of the colonized areas.

It is not speculation that inland Enna and Caltanissetta, and Palermo, experienced less Greek colonization under Magna Graecia than did the eastern coast of the island.

Here is a map of the Greek colonies in Sicily. Do you see a correlation to the area of increased E-V13 on the island? I personally don't.

http://www.ancient.eu/uploads/images/1058.png?v=1431030092

Maleth
27-07-16, 19:16
Several years ago professionals also claimed that R1b originated in Iberia.

That has not happened yet with E-V13, and we have more data then ever before ;)

Maleth
27-07-16, 19:20
I'd be more interested to seeing evidence of Greek colonization under Magna Graecia in inland Caltanissetta, Enna, and around Palermo. You claimed correlation between the distribution of E-V13 and that historical event, but I am not seeing that for neither Sicily nor for the rest of southern Italy based on the map of the colonized areas.

It is not speculation that inland Enna and Caltanissetta, and Palermo, experienced less Greek colonization under Magna Graecia than did the eastern coast of the island.

Maps are not set in stone. Besides that Sicilian history would tell you that populations are not static since 2000 years. There has been lots of movement. That is true to any other

Here is a map of the Greek colonies in Sicily. Do you see a correlation to the area of increased E-V13 on the island? I personally don't.

http://www.ancient.eu/uploads/images/1058.png?v=1431030092

Maps are not set in stone they just give a rough idea and sometimes change too according to more data available. Also populations do not remain static for 2000 years. This is true to any other region

Shetop
27-07-16, 19:51
That has not happened yet with E-V13, and we have more data then ever before ;)

I didn't want to say that anyone thought E-V13 originated in Iberia.
What I wanted to say is that several years ago professionals were obviously wrong (about R1b). That is why their opinion about origin of E-V13 is not relevant for me.

LABERIA
27-07-16, 20:32
I didn't want to say that anyone thought E-V13 originated in Iberia.
What I wanted to say is that several years ago professionals were obviously wrong (about R1b). That is why their opinion about origin of E-V13 is not relevant for me.

And what is relevant to you?

Maleth
27-07-16, 20:58
I didn't want to say that anyone thought E-V13 originated in Iberia.
What I wanted to say is that several years ago professionals were obviously wrong (about R1b). That is why their opinion about origin of E-V13 is not relevant for me.

I understood what you meant. If you reason that way you cannot believe anything you hear just in case it will change in the future. Things can change yes. They have many times, but right at the moment with what we have available nothing proves otherwise as in regards to E-V13. Its even much much worse to fantasize a hypothesis or theory with even much less evidence. consider it as fact, just in case a theory will be changed sometime in the future ;)

Shetop
27-07-16, 21:18
And what is relevant to you?

Opinion of those people which know the phylogeny of E-M78 and which know geographic distribution of its major subbranches like E-Z1919 or E-L618.

And of course it is very important to understand how did E-V13 expand in Europe. If we don't understand mechanism of expansion there is no way that we can understand what was before it. It should be significantly easier to understand more recent events (expansion) than something what happened earlier (place of origin of E-V13). Even though, no one has so far credibly explained how did E-V13 spread inside Europe.
Before we get that (explanation of expansion) we can maybe guess about the continent where E-V13 came to being, but we can't be more specific than that. My assumption in which I pretty much believe is that Europe is that continent. Why? Some of the reasons are - because no E-L618(xV13) has been found outside of Europe so far, because diversity of E-V13 subbranches is higher in Northern Europe compared to Southern Europe, because number of E-V13 men outside of Europe is very low compared to the number inside Europe, because ancient DNA results are strongly against scenario of migration from Near East.

Yetos
27-07-16, 22:17
Something also interesting concerning nucleotid V-13
totally different than said,

ok in Sicily we see it mainly at central and at mountains,
but what about Venice and Genoua? why has increased spot there?

so the difference among Sicily and venice-genoua shows to me that V-13 at Sicily was an older population before medieval time wars, and found refugge at mountains
but in Genoua and Venice gathered at fortified areas,
offcourse someone can say that V-13 gathered at the ports when they were at their glory,
but if V-13 gathered at the mountains at sicily during the Arab and Normand sauvereign?
that could say a lot, and surely explains some spots of V-13 as defencive gathering,


And I want to go it further,
Cyrrene Cyrenaica,
was colonised by Greeks,
But not Carhedona (carthago)
so at cyrene we find V-13 but at Carhedon?
so v-13 if V-13 was phoenician-middle eastern, how much should gathered at Carthago?
except if Scipion Africanus manage to slain them all.

link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrenaica


Also notice that V-13 is missing from Alps, area of G2a3b and Celts (la Tene and Haalstat)
so has nothing to with IE expansions, and probably with pure IE populations,
as also with the expand of G early farmers.

yet the older E found east of spain is at Konya today Turkey, around 2000 BC
The Thracian sample is very new almost 2,5 ky from Today
but the cross/combine of Italians searchers of Ydna E with PC1 is putting it much older from the 2 above at today Bulgaria
but is a statistical hypothesis.

signature,
' the Devil's advocate'

Garrick
28-07-16, 00:13
That has not happened yet with E-V13, and we have more data then ever before ;)

Yes, we have more data, from ancient to now.

Situation in Neolithic Europe

http://s2.postimg.org/zebg23dw9/Y_DNA_8_do_5_kya.png
We can see dominantly G2 and I2, only one E1b sample.

Today in Europe G has this distribution

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_G2a.gif

...
We can see very different distribution of E-V13 today in Europe, which is not linked with Neolithic but with Bronze age expansion.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif

Carries of Bronze age invasion in Europe were Indo Europeans. Thus it is logical to we suppose that E-V13 was minority lineage in Indo European expansion.

The presence of E-V13 at the Danes, Swedes, Russians, Poles, Belarusians, and other northern peoples would easily explain with the expansion of Indo-Europeans.

This does not imply where the E-V13 emerged. It is possible that it originated in Anatolia.

But it may be more important where the R1a and R1b carriers snapped E-V13 carriers in its expansion. At the steppes? On the Armenian and Iranian plateau? On the territory of present-day Romania? In Pannonia? Or where?

Another important thing is that E-V13 bearers today, all speak Indo-European languages but their original languages were not Indo-European. It can be obvious they are assimilated by Indo Europeans.

If E-V13 carriers were alone in significant numbers and independent of the Indo Europeans they would preserve their non Indo European languages!

We can seek non Indo European words that originate from the original language E-V13 carriers merely in traces, and in a small number of today's Indo-European languages where it is possible.

Maleth
29-07-16, 11:07
Yes, we have more data, from ancient to now.

Situation in Neolithic Europe

http://s2.postimg.org/zebg23dw9/Y_DNA_8_do_5_kya.png
We can see dominantly G2 and I2, only one E1b sample.

You (or the map :)) forgot Lengyel and Sopot. Bronze age was a general population boom in Europe. E-V13 been around long enough. There was no written language 7000 years ago, how can one seriously determine a language spoken at that time?

Garrick
29-07-16, 13:14
Even in Lengyel and Sopot it was sporadically but not dominant. We can discuss about this, it is not crucial. But linguistic issue is very important because it give us base to produce conclusions. E-V13 as a minority lineage have merged with Indo Europeans and expanded with them. Yes, we cannot know languages of E-V13 carriers in the distant past, there is no written evidence. But few people will say that E-V13 carriers are creators of Indo European languages. All the evidence shows that hey are not. They spoke their own languages which have lost by assimilation. And this is not case only with E-V13 carriers, Indo Europeans have expanded and have become dominant over wide areas. None of original languages of E-V13 carriers didn't survive. Or maybe we can look for somewhere?

Maleth
30-07-16, 16:06
Even in Lengyel and Sopot it was sporadically but not dominant. We can discuss about this, it is not crucial. But linguistic issue is very important because it give us base to produce conclusions. E-V13 as a minority lineage have merged with Indo Europeans and expanded with them. Yes, we cannot know languages of E-V13 carriers in the distant past, there is no written evidence. But few people will say that E-V13 carriers are creators of Indo European languages. All the evidence shows that hey are not. They spoke their own languages which have lost by assimilation. And this is not case only with E-V13 carriers, Indo Europeans have expanded and have become dominant over wide areas. None of original languages of E-V13 carriers didn't survive. Or maybe we can look for somewhere?

I have no doubt that E-V13 is not the carrier of Indo European Languages. That would be a far fetched theory in in my opinion. Anything possible close to that would be (maybe) E-V13 was born (10,000 ybhp?) into a community that spoke an Indo European language as a minority haplogroup. But then we do not even know exactly were e-v13 was born and more and more have less of an idea what that particular group (culture) was like or customs adopted.

ELIOV13
04-08-16, 23:50
I think it's time to take a step forward, the V13 Neolithic expansion 'was minima.La real expansion and ' occurred from the age ' of bronzo.Infatti all European tests are positive for haplogroup cts 5856 born 4000 years later than the end V13.Alla expansion and ' took place through the Greek colonization , in Genoa for Focei Greeks .
On the map it is clear how they stayed away from Tuscany and Sardinia because 'already inhabited by the Etruscans and fenici.La war Alalia pushed them to disperse and to Eleia in Liguria .

Maleth
05-08-16, 09:28
I think it's time to take a step forward, the V13 Neolithic expansion 'was minima.La real expansion and ' occurred from the age ' of bronzo.Infatti all European tests are positive for haplogroup cts 5856 born 4000 years later than the end V13.Alla expansion and ' took place through the Greek colonization , in Genoa for Focei Greeks .
On the map it is clear how they stayed away from Tuscany and Sardinia because 'already inhabited by the Etruscans and fenici.La war Alalia pushed them to disperse and to Eleia in Liguria .

You are right ELIOV13. It is clear that the major expansion for E-V13 happened during bronze age. This was a time of a population boom and long distance trading. If not mistaken it spread from the Agean so a possible E-V13 connection would seem possible. However it is also a fact that E-V13 has been around much earlier then this, in the Neolithic, as a minor haplogroup compared say to G or I. We have no ancient Neolithic samples from Balkan proper, so we are relying on more temperate zones like Northern Spain, France Germany and Hungary. I have no doubt that during the Greek Classical era E-V13 spread further since they have founded many towns with literal migration around the Mediterranean. This would explains well the very low percentages of EV-13 in North Africa due to Greek settlements (Alexandria Egypt? Named for Alexander the great? and many others). And also the higher percentages of E-V13 around the Turkish coast (again clear indication of Greek expansion) meaning an import from the Balkans to these areas (and not the other way round). This would be the reason why one would be inclined that E-V13 was born in Balkan proper and none of the peripheries.

Garrick
05-08-16, 13:11
You are right ELIOV13. It is clear that the major expansion for E-V13 happened during bronze age. This was a time of a population boom and long distance trading. If not mistaken it spread from the Agean so a possible E-V13 connection would seem possible. However it is also a fact that E-V13 has been around much earlier then this, in the Neolithic, as a minor haplogroup compared say to G or I.

Yes, it is evidence, E-V13 is spread in Bronze age.


We have no ancient Neolithic samples from Balkan proper, so we are relying on more temperate zones like Northern Spain, France Germany and Hungary. I have no doubt that during the Greek Classical era E-V13 spread further since they have founded many towns with literal migration around the Mediterranean.

E-V13 spread with Greeks and with Indo-Europeans (of course and Greeks are Indo-Europeans too but for understanding different directions).

For example E-V13 in Saint-Petersburg, Vladivostok, Oslo, Stockholm or Copenhagen is not brought by Greeks.


This would explains well the very low percentages of EV-13 in North Africa due to Greek settlements (Alexandria Egypt? Named for Alexander the great? and many others). And also the higher percentages of E-V13 around the Turkish coast (again clear indication of Greek expansion) meaning an import from the Balkans to these areas (and not the other way round). This would be the reason why one would be inclined that E-V13 was born in Balkan proper and none of the peripheries.

Situation in Neolithic:

http://s2.postimg.org/zebg23dw9/Y_DNA_8_do_5_kya.png
In Neolithic R1b samples dominated in Samara above the Caspian sea, but in Western Europe is completely different situation.

Today R1b dominates in Western Europe and not above Caspian sea.

Bearers of haplogroups move and migrate and for various reasons leave the places where they once lived, today's situation can be total different in comparison with 5,000 or 10,000 years ago.

Where is place of origin of E-V13, there are hypothesis it is Western Asia, Northern Africa, somewhere in Europe, but Western Asia is most probably, as Cruciani et al argue that was about 11 ky ago.

Maleth
05-08-16, 13:42
For example E-V13 in Saint-Petersburg, Vladivostok, Oslo, Stockholm or Copenhagen is not brought by Greeks.

indeed, and neither by Romans. I am not very familiar with the history of the regions. As to E-V13 in Scandinavia it seems plausible there was trade between Thrace (already some indications that E was present in Tharce) and Vikings and maybe peoples of those areas. Maybe war? Slaves? I am really not sure.




Situation in Neolithic:

http://s2.postimg.org/zebg23dw9/Y_DNA_8_do_5_kya.png
In Neolithic R1b samples dominated in Samara above the Caspian sea, but in Western Europe is completely different situation.

Today R1b dominates in Western Europe and not above Caspian sea.

Bearers of haplogroups move and migrate and for various reasons leave the places where they once lived, today's situation can be total different in comparison with 5,000 or 10,000 years ago.

Where is place of origin of E-V13, there are hypothesis it is Western Asia, Northern Africa, somewhere in Europe, but Western Asia is most probably, as Cruciani et al argue that was about 11 ky ago.

Indeed. Is this the latest map? E from Legyel and sopot from the Hungary area are not listed. And didn't we have some samples from Villa Bruna? Balkans and Italy are totally void of ancient Neolithic samples, and I am under the impression that they could have been some of the most populated regions since we are not far off from the melting of the ice age and this area (Balkans) could have served as some kind of refugium. As climate changed and northern areas became more habitable we would see movements of people. Without dna neolithic sampling from Italy and the Balkans, the picture cannot be complete. Same applies to Near east.

Shetop
06-08-16, 12:46
We have no ancient Neolithic samples from Balkan proper, so we are relying on more temperate zones like Northern Spain, France Germany and Hungary.

There is one from Greece. It was reported in this paper: http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/11/25/032763.full.pdf . As you can see it was G2a2a1b.

Maleth
08-08-16, 19:39
There is one from Greece. It was reported in this paper: http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/11/25/032763.full.pdf . As you can see it was G2a2a1b.

Interesting and thanks for the link. Tried to look for a more updated map on Neolithic dna but couldn't find any on just a simple google search. I am not sure how people conclude on what to put on their charts. Example I read an article once that a G was found near Stonehenge which was thought to be Neolithic and yet we have no samples from the area on any map. The findings and the reporting are very poorly coordinated it seems, unless there are deeper reasons for it. The Natufian results are also very interesting.

ELIOV13
18-09-16, 21:59
For me it is easy to say that our V13 originates in the Cyclades and in the Aegean sea with those civilizations ' minoiche.Non calls were definitely indoeuropei.Avevano very strong ties with Libya and Egitto.A result of decadence and especially after the explosion of Santorini ( Thera ) were conquered by Indo-European populations
( Akei ) .With these coalesced into a society ' now called micenea.Piu later came the Dorians , these Indo-Europeans , and probably much Nordici.Le cyclades were much more populated then, there are archaeological findings well on these remarkable prehistoric scattered isole.E all that in greek language came from the sea , was due to loro.Quale best candidate for V13 and maybe J ? And as ' the expansion of a group africano.Gli today's inhabitants of the Greek islands are a little different since then ' cause then suffered the colonization of Akei and Dori .

Maleth
19-09-16, 15:50
For me it is easy to say that our V13 originates in the Cyclades and in the Aegean sea with those civilizations ' minoiche.Non calls were definitely indoeuropei.Avevano very strong ties with Libya and Egitto.A result of decadence and especially after the explosion of Santorini ( Thera ) were conquered by Indo-European populations
( Akei ) .With these coalesced into a society ' now called micenea.Piu later came the Dorians , these Indo-Europeans , and probably much Nordici.Le cyclades were much more populated then, there are archaeological findings well on these remarkable prehistoric scattered isole.E all that in greek language came from the sea , was due to loro.Quale best candidate for V13 and maybe J ? And as ' the expansion of a group africano.Gli today's inhabitants of the Greek islands are a little different since then ' cause then suffered the colonization of Akei and Dori .

I do not think that there are any ancient dna studies on the Cyclades per se (ancient or current), however according to excavations it seems they had a culture that migrated from the East (Anatolia). Further south (Crete and its minion culture) has revealed also that ancient mtdna is similar to that of continental Europe and no connection (at least mtdna) with North Africa or Arabia. Of course there is always the question of how reliable these studies are. However culturally it seems that there has been some affinities with Egyptian and Libyan cultures but according to the studies not so much genetically.

"The authors therefore conclude that the Minoan civilisation was a local development, originated by inhabitants who probably reached the island around 9,000 years ago, in Neolithic times."


"The ancient Minoan DNA was most similar to populations from western and northern Europe. The population showed particular genetic affinities with Bronze Age populations from Sardinia and Iberia and Neolithic samples from Scandinavia and France."

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-22527821

ELIOV13
20-09-16, 00:09
I read the article and frankly I 'seemed very superficiale.Sopratutto when it concludes that the ancient inhabitants of Crete are the same as attuali.Quali? Because haplogroup most represented and' J2 34% E1b1b1 and 'the second with 11% and R1b and '9% probably Akei follows R1a probably Dorico.Poi G2a. Then more we go to the Cyclades more haplogroup E increases. Then, just 3700 years ago there were great changes .A probable invasion from Anatolia (perhaps G2a) and the destruction of buildings .Terremoti preceding the eruption of Thera. From the point of view of the Y dna the Minoans, in my opinion, were J2A E1b1b1 and G2a. Returning to our. V13 very isolated from its initial context (M78) had the Z1919 mutations, L618 right in the Aegean Sea in close correlation with the people Pelasgian pre Greeks, not indoeuropei.V13 has always had a lot to do with mare.Pian plan colonize ' even the Peloponnese Thessaly, the Attic and tracia.Fu then crushed by the Indo-European invasions of 2600 forward cristo.Ma its fast expansion I see after the mutation in cts 5856 (4000 years or so after V13) ancestor of almost all E europei.L'eruzione of Thera around 1640 before christ) was preceded by strong earthquakes that did migrate from the cyclades to the many inhabitants continent .And i think it inizio'la diaspora to form the illirici.Arrivarono peoples then Akei, you melted for about four centuries beginning the company 'Mycenaean called by archeologi.Le Doric invasions after the trojan war created divisions and sectarianism in society' greca.Si arrival 'then the classical period and the colonies and our V13 expanded into throughout the Mediterranean where I 'not yet organized populations or entering into conflict, thus steering clear as in the case of Focei populations arrived from a politico.Laziali consolidation, Etruscan etc. I see it so.

Maleth
20-09-16, 20:15
I read the article and frankly I 'seemed very superficiale.Sopratutto when it concludes that the ancient inhabitants of Crete are the same as attuali.Quali? Because haplogroup most represented and' J2 34% E1b1b1 and 'the second with 11% and R1b and '9% probably Akei follows R1a probably Dorico.Poi G2a. Then more we go to the Cyclades more haplogroup E increases. Then, just 3700 years ago there were great changes .A probable invasion from Anatolia (perhaps G2a) and the destruction of buildings .Terremoti preceding the eruption of Thera. From the point of view of the Y dna the Minoans, in my opinion, were J2A E1b1b1 and G2a. Returning to our. V13 very isolated from its initial context (M78) had the Z1919 mutations, L618 right in the Aegean Sea in close correlation with the people Pelasgian pre Greeks, not indoeuropei.V13 has always had a lot to do with mare.Pian plan colonize ' even the Peloponnese Thessaly, the Attic and tracia.Fu then crushed by the Indo-European invasions of 2600 forward cristo.Ma its fast expansion I see after the mutation in cts 5856 (4000 years or so after V13) ancestor of almost all E europei.L'eruzione of Thera around 1640 before christ) was preceded by strong earthquakes that did migrate from the cyclades to the many inhabitants continent .And i think it inizio'la diaspora to form the illirici.Arrivarono peoples then Akei, you melted for about four centuries beginning the company 'Mycenaean called by archeologi.Le Doric invasions after the trojan war created divisions and sectarianism in society' greca.Si arrival 'then the classical period and the colonies and our V13 expanded into throughout the Mediterranean where I 'not yet organized populations or entering into conflict, thus steering clear as in the case of Focei populations arrived from a politico.Laziali consolidation, Etruscan etc. I see it so.

The bronze age no doubt has seen a rapid expansion of E-V13 and there is little doubt that this happened in the Balkans with its very intricate prehistory and history, the million dollar question would remain as to when E-V13 was mutated and in which area? West Asia? Balkan proper? (which I believe) North Africa (which I really do not think so) We seem to have a number of ancient studies in relation to Mtdna in the Balkans but not so much Ydna, so one can just speculate unfortunately.

ELIOV13
20-09-16, 23:09
There are, however, 'some fixed points.
Haplogroup "E" definitely comes from the southern Mediterranean, not 'indoors it' speak a language indoeuropea.In asia especially to the east did not have a real expansion unless the anatoliche.Ha coasts much to do with the trafficking and with the events related to the sea that you will find anywhere in the colonies greche.E definitely had a espansiona from the Balkans meaning with this also the current Greece until Creta.Nella region now called Greece lived before the arrival of the "Indo-Greeks "populations with language unknown to us now that we know under the name of Pelasgians, Leleges, dear etc.Il ns V13 without risking losing a million dollars was born in that stock, with the sea that isolated him from his African ancestors, and from 'asia.Tutto leaning towards the West, where today and' the present 90% circa.Ho read somewhere that the more genetic variables has its own in Greece confirming 'them most antichita'.Sopratutto in Kosovo there was' a lucky expansion due to the founder, but then one can not speak of Albania and then not discuss Pelasgi Illiri.Se and then we have to discuss numbers have many, many more EV13 Italy than the small Kosovo or Macedonia or albania or bulgaria.In Italy arrived by mare.Tutti.Addirittura Umbrian and part of the Venetians, Pugliesi by Illiri.nel Tirreno by Anatolian Focei up to Liguria and Marseille, Nice, Genoa etc.For not speak of Sicily, calabria , campania with dallla greece and continental migrations from egee.Li islands, unless you look at the percentages, EV13 has much importanti.Se numbers we consider that migrants of Italian origin living abroad especially Southerners are not less than 60/70 million abitanti.Ci we make it so 'account that today the real territory with more and V13' the Italia.Anche though I realize that the real starting broth was certainly the Balkans with Greece confirming the accredited history of the movement from south-east to the west of all these peoples constantly mediterranei.Io to think so '

Maleth
22-09-16, 17:53
There are, however, 'some fixed points.
Haplogroup "E" definitely comes from the southern Mediterranean, not 'indoors it' speak a language indoeuropea.In asia especially to the east did not have a real expansion unless the anatoliche.Ha coasts much to do with the trafficking and with the events related to the sea that you will find anywhere in the colonies greche.E definitely had a espansiona from the Balkans meaning with this also the current Greece until Creta.Nella region now called Greece lived before the arrival of the "Indo-Greeks "populations with language unknown to us now that we know under the name of Pelasgians, Leleges, dear etc.Il ns V13 without risking losing a million dollars was born in that stock, with the sea that isolated him from his African ancestors, and from 'asia.Tutto leaning towards the West, where today and' the present 90% circa.Ho read somewhere that the more genetic variables has its own in Greece confirming 'them most antichita'.Sopratutto in Kosovo there was' a lucky expansion due to the founder, but then one can not speak of Albania and then not discuss Pelasgi Illiri.Se and then we have to discuss numbers have many, many more EV13 Italy than the small Kosovo or Macedonia or albania or bulgaria.In Italy arrived by mare.Tutti.Addirittura Umbrian and part of the Venetians, Pugliesi by Illiri.nel Tirreno by Anatolian Focei up to Liguria and Marseille, Nice, Genoa etc.For not speak of Sicily, calabria , campania with dallla greece and continental migrations from egee.Li islands, unless you look at the percentages, EV13 has much importanti.Se numbers we consider that migrants of Italian origin living abroad especially Southerners are not less than 60/70 million abitanti.Ci we make it so 'account that today the real territory with more and V13' the Italia.Anche though I realize that the real starting broth was certainly the Balkans with Greece confirming the accredited history of the movement from south-east to the west of all these peoples constantly mediterranei.Io to think so '

I agree with you on many fronts and I believe the Southern Balkans is a likely candidate to be its cradle. I believe that the current distribution is more linked with a bronze age distribution, which I would consider part 2 of the E-V13 story. The mutation of E-V13 can go back even up to another 3/5 thousand years as we have proof from the Late neolithic cave in Northern Spain. We also have ancient E samples as old from Hungary Sopot and Lengyel, so we know that E-V13 has been roaming around since these times. Its irrelevant wether these are singletons or scouts as they are sometimes called, the fact is they were there and proved. As I stated before we do not have any reliable ancient dna samples from the Southern Balkans so it makes the whole story inconclusive. Thrace and Bulgaria in General can also have an interesting link with E-V13 evolution and some papers suggested as I have posted before that: Aegean Immigration to the southern Levant:The Y chromosome patterns of contemporary populations offers a lens throughwhich to explore the possible demographic effects of the Iron Age I Philistines in the farsouthern coastal Levant. Apart from the J2a patterns listed above, previous studies showan Aegean focus for two non-J Y lineages: E-V13 and G-M527/L13. E-V13 has beenshown to have originated most probably in the Balkans circa 9000 BCE as a Mesolithicmarker, while G-M527/L13 arose somewhat later during the Late Neolithic Era in coastalWestern Anatolia (Battaglia et al. 2008; Rootsi et al. 2012). Both lineages track Greekcolonization events from present day Marseilles/Provence (Greek colony of Massalia) toGreek colonies in Ukraine and Crimea (King et al. 2011; Rootsi et al. 2012). We alsofind E-V13 and G-M527 among contemporary Palestinians and Druze from Israel (table1). This result suggests that E-V13 and G-M527 may track the immigration of Aegean........

http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1043&context=humbiol_preprints

All mainstream papers/studies suggest a west asian entry of either E-V13 proper or its precursor with a mere alternative suggestion which has not really taken ground.

Nik
27-09-16, 15:57
Nobody can be sure about the origin and when it spread around Europe as of yet, but I would propose to consider anthropology as a helping factor.

In my opinion the spread of E-V13 clearly indicates that it represented an old population being "pushed to corners" by constant migration waves and invasions, seeking mostly mountainous refugias.

The perfect area to analyze is the Balkans due to the more conservative societies, especially in the Western Balkans.

We know for a fact that its highest concentration is in the mountainous areas of North Albania, Western Kosovo, and Southern Montenegro, inhabited by people being predominantly of the so-called Dinaric type.

Now my theory is that E-V13 has been there long enough to represent the same subrace as the I2a and J2b, meaning the three haplogroups intermixed to the extent of becoming almost identical physically and appearance wise, thus possibly giving birth to the local variant known as Dinaric/Epirotic/Adriatic.

The same applies for the mountainous regions of North-Western Bulgaria and Romania where the majority of E-V13 is concentrated and the Dinaric race is more prevalent. Even further, the presence of E-V13 together with a "higher than normal" Dinaric race in Ukraine makes its history similar to the southern mountainous regions.

Other regions to consider are the Peloponnese in Southern Greece and although most of the Dinarics in Greece are located in these mountainous regions, I am only using the example of Peloponnese as an indicator of a mountainous E-V13 population.

Furthermore, we can add to the the analysis South Italy where despite it being predominantly a Mediterranean region racially, the prevalence of Dinaric-Mediterranean type is very high. The same applies to Lazio and some Northern regions of Italy.

My hypothesis does have limitations in Italy as the the populations are not as homogeneous as in the Balkans, meaning that the level of industrialization will definitely make it harder to link a certain haplogroup with specific migrations, as people moved around from cities to mountains to fields and vice versa more often than in the Balkans. For instance since Yetos mentioned Venice, that to me is a clear indication of Medieval Albanian and Greek settlers. Part of my own family settled initially in Venice and then spread in several Northern Italian cities after the Ottoman invasion.

So its concentration in the mountains and even distribution in Italy in my opinion does indicate a pre Bronze Age distribution and not a massive Bronze Age spread or more recent Greek colonization.

Basically, I see the E-V13 everywhere in Europe as a relatively old people, being racially "hunter gatherers" (or at least a hybrid variant) and linguistically IE like the very people that pushed them to the aforementioned refugias, and not at all the reason why South Italy is so dolichocephalic as Maciamo believes.

Angela
27-09-16, 16:20
The fact remains, Nik, that an examination of the yDna shows a massive expansion in the Bronze Age. Somehow, they got very lucky at that time.

Nik
27-09-16, 16:50
The fact remains, Nik, that an examination of the yDna shows a massive expansion in the Bronze Age. Somehow, they got very lucky at that time.
Of course, I am not disagreeing that it did spread during the Bronze Age as well, and massively also. I am not a supporter of any theory that tries to disprove another unless the facts have a 100% match and cover 100% of the puzzles.

Based on what I said in the previous post, I believe and see as reasonable the fact that E-V13 spread slowly and evenly since Mesolithic and then it had a peak period during the Bronze Age. So the idea is that this Bronze Age boom within a few hundred years can never be larger than a slow constant spread of thousands of years

Furthermore, I take the yDna examinations with a grain of salt as I cant yet understand how reliable their estimations are. My confusion could be due to my ignorance on the subject, but then again even the current scientists themselves cannot claim they're 100% right either. All I see is them estimating something and then being crushed by new findings, which makes me think if I should ever bother reading estimates and theories anymore. I'd better be waiting for actual findings and extensive ancient dna tests. So based on continuous experiences, there is a very high possibility that their methods are not that legit.

Just for curiosity, what is ur opinion on the correlation between E-V13, its high prevalence in mountainous regions and the link to a brachycephalic ancient population?

Angela
27-09-16, 23:03
I don't know enough of the details of population movement in the Balkans to comment with any authority about it's distribution.

In terms of Italy I'm not convinced E-V13 does have a predominantly mountainous distribution.

We can take a look at Maciamo's map:
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif

Apulia is flat. The same goes for the lowland Veneto. Or take Liguria: yes, it's very mountainous, but from what I've seen it is the coastal areas which are high in E-V13. As soon as you get up into the mountains of the Ligurian Appennines, the Alpi Apuani, the Tosco-Emilianp Appennines, you start getting very high percentages of R1b.

Or, take a look at the hot spots in Spain or the central European plain.

Again in terms of Italy, Boattini et al and Sarno et al, which only took a representative sample of people with regional surnames, found that the arrival of E-V13 in Italy was relatively recent, i.e. first millennium BC., which ties in very well with the Greek expansion and the Greek trading empire. Now, I'm not saying that there couldn't have been "older" or more upstream E-V13, or its precursors in Italy at an earlier date. I'm just saying that the clades which expanded in the Bronze Age most probably didn't originate in Italy, and reached it later.

As to whether they were more brachy in skull shape than the original Neolithic farmers, I don't know. We now have precursors to E-V13 in early Neolithic Spain, and in Hungary in Sopot and Lengyel in the Middle to Late Neolithic transition. We have E-V13 (or is it precursors?) in the Near East. Someone should see if the measurements for these skulls are available for them and for remains from roughly the same eras, but different yDna haplogroups. That's the only way we'd know, yes?

This is from another thread, but I think it's still pertinent, and there are good links:

(I don't know whether these maps have been updated since 2013.)
I'd be sure to take a look at the two Boattini studies, and as mentioned above, the Trombetta 2015 paper, but if you want your tables to be accurate there are many studies on the issue. (It's important to actually read the Trombetta paper, and the others for that matter. Just listing the varieties doesn't go all that far in analyzing the data.)

Boattini et al:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0065441 (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0065441)

This is actually Sarno et al, but Boattini is one of the authors:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...e-0096074-t001 (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096074#pone-0096074-t001)

(One needs to be mindful that these are small samples so it wouldn't do to conclude, for example, that a large number of E-M81 people settled in Emilia-Romagna. One also has to remember that these clades came at different times from different places, and some of them are very minor in terms of frequency.)

Trombetta et al:
http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/7/7/1940.full

The Boattini papers were discussed here, and there's some good analysis if I say so myself. :)
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...tini-et-al-%29 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28670-Distribution-of-J2-subclades-in-Italy-%28Boattini-et-al-%29)

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...tini-et-al-%29 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28670-Distribution-of-J2-subclades-in-Italy-%28Boattini-et-al-%29)

Of course, all of this analysis was before the discovery of J2 and E-V13 in the Neolithic Balkans 4700 BC, or J2 in a Bronze Age warrior, which makes us look very prescient indeed. :)

I haven't been reading this thread for a while, so I don't know if someone posted a link to the study of Cypriot yDna. E-V13 is discussed in that context.
Voskarides et al:
https://investigativegenetics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13323-016-0032-8

Maleth
29-09-16, 19:27
Thanks for the very informative link re Cypriot dna. There defiantly are some interesting points observed in regards to E-V13 and luckily has been dealt with extensively too. We seem to be drifting further and further away from an E-V13 crossing (island hopping) directly from North Africa as it has been suggested.

quote - In Europe, certain sub-haplogroups of G and specifically E-V13 were detected in ancient DNA, including Linear Band Keramik (LBK) remains from Central Europe (ca. 8000 y BP), Epicardial skeletons from Iberia (7000 y BP), South of France Late Neolithic (5000 y BP), and a Tyrol specimen (5300 y BP) [77 (https://investigativegenetics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13323-016-0032-8#CR77), 78 (https://investigativegenetics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13323-016-0032-8#CR78), 79 (https://investigativegenetics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13323-016-0032-8#CR79), 80 (https://investigativegenetics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13323-016-0032-8#CR80)].- end quote

https://investigativegenetics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13323-016-0032-8

Maleth
25-10-16, 10:47
2014 study

On the other hand, Y-chromosome lineage E-V13 is thought to have originated in southern Balkans [53] (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096074#pone.0096074-Cruciani1)–[54] (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096074#pone.0096074-Battaglia1) and then to have spread in Sicily at high frequencies with the Greek colonization of the island [8] (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096074#pone.0096074-DiGaetano1).

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096074

M0thana
29-10-16, 15:35
hi guys,
I just tested my Y-DNA and turns to be V-13, I am from Iraq, and my father came from a very tribal-closed area in Marsh-Arabs, located in south Iraq. My mtDNA is H14. Anyone can help me figure out where did my ancestors come from?
MJ

Twilight
31-10-16, 02:19
hi guys,
I just tested my Y-DNA and turns to be V-13, I am from Iraq, and my father came from a very tribal-closed area in Marsh-Arabs, located in south Iraq. My mtDNA is H14. Anyone can help me figure out where did my ancestors come from?
MJ

Hello there Mothana, nice to meet you. Welcome to Eupedia. Your E-V13 lineage only corresponds to your surname; so your E-V13 ancestor came from your father's father's father's father's fathers.... etc. In order to find out your ancestry, I'd look into the history of your family's tribe and the ancient peoples whom settled in your province; since ancient civilizations tended to absorb and assimilate eachother.

blevins13
01-11-16, 01:29
2014 study

On the other hand, Y-chromosome lineage E-V13 is thought to have originated in southern Balkans [53] (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096074#pone.0096074-Cruciani1)–[54] (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096074#pone.0096074-Battaglia1) and then to have spread in Sicily at high frequencies with the Greek colonization of the island [8] (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096074#pone.0096074-DiGaetano1).

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096074

Very interesting study


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ESpraguer
05-11-16, 06:43
Indeed. This map really isn't right either. I'd like to see haplogroup data out of Italy that takes into account e1b1b sub-clade. People are being lazy when they put all that E-V13 in Sicily. They see e1b1b & infer it's V-13. Actually, in much of western Italy (Sicily included) it turns out that it's not. There is in fact not so much of it there from what I've seen. There is plenty of e1b1b (12-20%), but half of it or more is not -V13. The E-V13 actually clusters in the east of Italy (stretching all the way to Venice). There, especially along the coast & in the coastal provinces, it's also 12-20% e1b1b, but 80%+ of that e1b1b is -V13. Your Illyrian point is spot-on, or the E-V13 could predate the Illyrians. Perhaps the same mesolithic or early neolithic settlers that settled Greece & the Balkans settled the east coast of Italy.

ESpraguer
05-11-16, 06:54
That's a fantastic post. It comports with my views exactly. People can only think unidirectionally. E-V13 did not rapidly expand. It was in SE Europe for a long time (Vinca, Greek, Cucuteni) when successive waves of R1B & R1A invaded. It got pushed to the periphery. On the other hand I'm not sure I'm ready to give E-V13 a physical type at all. But judging by its group members, I think there may be some mental characteristics that define the group ("militant" comes to mind--- Sparta, Hitler, Napoleon).

ESpraguer
05-11-16, 07:26
That's a bait & switch. M78 diversity is not V13 diversity. There is very little V13 & very little V13 diversity in North Africa. There is far more of both in Europe. Most parsimonious explanation therefore is that E-V13 is not North African in origin. Nobody is arguing E-M78 is not North African. But E-V13, a specific sub-clade of M-78, is not. It's likely European or Anatolian in origin. In short, we known E-M78 was birthed in southern Egypt. E-V13 was most likely not.

Zim Nezaj
16-11-16, 05:38
Hi, i recently did DNA testing with ancestory & 23&me and i came up E-V13 ... I'm Albanian and we never mixed with any other race, in fact i came out 87.2% Balkan, 95% southern European with that being said we are Illyrians, Dardanian, Albanian, it also mind boggles me how Ancient Greek is always mentioned whereas Ancient greek is in Fact Albanian and no one admits too it but DNA doesn't lie.... i also just did the family tree YDNA-67 and will post my results in Bloodlines of Albanians research.
Cheers

LeBrok
16-11-16, 07:24
Hi, i recently did DNA testing with ancestory & 23&me and i came up E-V13 ... I'm Albanian and we never mixed with any other race, in fact i came out 87.2% Balkan, 95% southern European with that being said we are Illyrians, Dardanian, Albanian, it also mind boggles me how Ancient Greek is always mentioned whereas Ancient greek is in Fact Albanian and no one admits too it but DNA doesn't lie.... i also just did the family tree YDNA-67 and will post my results in Bloodlines of Albanians research.
CheersStart reading this and things should clear up:
http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/

Aaron1981
16-11-16, 17:56
Western Anatolia/Northern Levant and spread into the Balkans rapidly during the neolithic, or possibly a little later. Seems to be quite frequent in Italy, to a lesser extent in Spain (was in Neolithic Spain). West of Austria the level drops of quite a bit when you reach Germany.

blevins13
22-11-16, 22:44
Hi, i recently did DNA testing with ancestory & 23&me and i came up E-V13 ... I'm Albanian and we never mixed with any other race, in fact i came out 87.2% Balkan, 95% southern European with that being said we are Illyrians, Dardanian, Albanian, it also mind boggles me how Ancient Greek is always mentioned whereas Ancient greek is in Fact Albanian and no one admits too it but DNA doesn't lie.... i also just did the family tree YDNA-67 and will post my results in Bloodlines of Albanians research.
Cheers

Dream on man


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drroots
26-05-17, 08:55
I do still wonder when all the E-V13 in southern Germany and the Tyrol arrived, and from where. There's no record of actual Greek migration there.

I found very interesting that the oldest E-V13 sample is found in Spain is dated ~7000 years ago, but its closest parent, the L-618 is found in Dalmacia , Croatia dated ~500 years earlier. Seems to me that E-V13 spread out in EU long before greeks and romans, but certainly Greeks and Romans may have contributed further.

drroots
26-05-17, 09:05
hi guys,
I just tested my Y-DNA and turns to be V-13, I am from Iraq, Anyone can help me figure out where did my ancestors come from?
MJ

FTDNA Y-DNA matches or haplogroup origin matches may give you a clue. You can upload your STR Results to YSearch.com and try your luck there. As far as I remember from history books, balkan fed Ottoman army with a steady stream of soldiers for centuries. Or it could be much earlier than that.

As more people test, more info will be available for all.

valentinavalley2
28-09-19, 13:02
Hi, i recently did DNA testing with ancestory & 23&me and i came up E-V13 ... I'm Albanian and we never mixed with any other race, in fact i came out 87.2% Balkan, 95% southern European with that being said we are Illyrians, Dardanian, Albanian, it also mind boggles me how Ancient Greek is always mentioned whereas Ancient greek is in Fact Albanian and no one admits too it but DNA doesn't lie.... i also just did the family tree YDNA-67 and will post my results in Bloodlines of Albanians research.
Cheers

You idiot and a disgrace to us Albanians, Ancient Greek isn’t Albanian, but most likely that marker is Pelasgian in origin, maybe that marker came with the sea people.


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valentinavalley2
28-09-19, 13:05
I have a theory Haplogroup E-v13 might be the original sea people Haplogroup, Or Pelasgian Haplogroup...


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Aspurg
31-10-19, 15:49
I have a theory Haplogroup E-v13 might be the original sea people Haplogroup, Or Pelasgian Haplogroup...


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You have a theory?? :smile: Hundreds of people for the past 10 years have proposed links of E-V13 with Pelasgians. But those people likely did not call themselves Pelasgians. Pelasgian seems like a Greek corruption which designated several different peoples. But real people were Pelastians, as attested by the older name of Strymon river- Palaistinos, by the Egyptian description of the "PRST", by the Philistines themselves.

Yes some V13 clades might have a direct link with Pelastians as clades such as E-FGC44169, which is very diverse in the Middle East, includes one clade in Druze. Those might be descendants of Philistines, and interestingly on the Balkan E-FGC44169 is very diverse to the East of Palaistinos river. As Strumon likely carried name Palaistinos in LBA when Pelastians were among Sea Peoples this might be a direct link. Also among Philistines the only authentic Philistine by Y-DNA was R-M269+. In the same area Y5586 subclade of Z2103 has also great diversity.

E-FGC44169 has a TMRCA of 4200 ybp and E-Y5586 has a TMRCA of 4300 ybp, and interestingly Ossetians have basal E-Y5586 and E-CTS1273 which might signify these moved together at some point.

So Strymon might have carried name Palaistinos from 4300 ybp to 3200 ybp or so. According to some linguists Pelasgian language was very similar to Thracian in phonology. And E-CTS1273 would fit nicely there unless Thracian arrived in Late Bronze Age during the Bronze Age collapse.

valentinavalley2
31-10-19, 19:25
You have a theory?? :smile: Hundreds of people for the past 10 years have proposed links of E-V13 with Pelasgians. But those people likely did not call themselves Pelasgians. Pelasgian seems like a Greek corruption which designated several different peoples. But real people were Pelastians, as attested by the older name of Strymon river- Palaistinos, by the Egyptian description of the mas "PRST", by the Philistines themselves.

Yes some V13 clades might have a direct link with Pelastians as clades such as E-FGC44169 which is very diverse in the Middle East, includes one clade in Druze. Those might be descendants of Philistines, and interestingly on the Balkan E-FGC44169 is very diverse to the East of Palaistinos river. As Strumon likely carried name Palaistinos in LBA when Pelastians were among Sea Peoples his might be a direct link. Also among Philistines the only authentic Philistine by Y-DNA was R-M269+. In the same area Y5586 subclade of Z2103 has also great diversity.

E-FGC44169 has a TMRCA of 4200 ybp and E-Y5586 has a TMRCA of 4300 ybp, and interestingly Ossetians have basal E-Y5586 and E-CTS1273 which might signify these moved together at some point.

So Strymon might have carried name Palaistinos from 4300 ybp to 3200 ybp or so. According to some linguists Pelasgian language was very similar to Thracian in phonology. And E-CTS1273 would fit nicely there unless Thracian arrived in Late Bronze Age during the Bronze Age collapse.

Haplogroup E is actually very common in the Levant, but J is dominant there... and lol some Lebanese and some Palestinians can pass as Greeks and Albanians...


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LeoJ
15-11-19, 20:49
So, guys, a lot of very interesting theories and notes on this subject, just spent 2 hours reading the thread, but one thing is missing here for sure (in contrast with real great minds here also): a damn clear concise OPTION TREE for the E-V13 origins and spreading. Because this is so important for human knowledge; it's an established fact that old greek civilization was the base of the western modern ones and old greek civilization are equal more or less with E-V13 marker. From here our modern world was established. And we still can't provide an viable OPTION TREE. Is somebody willing to do this for the sake of humanity, please ?

Aspurg
15-11-19, 23:34
So, guys, a lot of very interesting theories and notes on this subject, just spent 2 hours reading the thread, but one thing is missing here for sure (in contrast with real great minds here also): a damn clear concise OPTION TREE for the E-V13 origins and spreading.

If E-V13 began its demographic boom from the Western Balkans, then it began this boom with Cetina culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetina_culture), pretty much no ifs and no buts.
1. E-L618+ find from Early Dalmatian Impresso is there, 6000 BC
2. Few confirmed and likely L618+, V13- in Western Balkans area are there.
3. The spread of one of earliest splits at the V13 level, E-Y30977>Y37092 , TMRCA 4300 ybp mirrors the Cetina culture in spread.

The dominant V13 clade CTS1273 does not resemble Cetina culture much but Cetina culture died out in its native area without any clear inheritors. But before than it had daughter cultures to the East: Belotić-Bela Crkva, Bubanj Hum III and Armenochori, who very likely played part in further spreading of CTS1273 clades.

There are other good arguments in support of this but I won't post that on an internet forum..

Maybe a case with Cucuteni-Trypillia culture could be made because of one E-M78 being found there, and diversity in those areas, but the undeniable presence of E-L618 in Dalmatia, coupled with clear evidence that as some archaeologists put it that this element was stubbornly keeping itself in life until the Calcolithic age, with this BA Cetina culture which certainly had a substrate of this old Neolithic element makes the connection with Cucuteni-Trypillia culture less likely.
Clearly in Neolithic context the home of E-L618+ was Eastern Adriatic coast more precisely Dalmatia (Impresso, Danilo and Hvar cultures), anything else is just a stray L618+ who wandered off from the Adriatic coast.. This was obvious even few years ago. It was immediately apparent that E-L618 has little to do with the main Continental Neolithic complex but rather with Cardial/Impresso.

silver bird
17-11-19, 14:57
Such interesting writes, thank you for the great read from Silverbird

Neretva E V13
18-11-19, 12:46
A few days ago I have got result that my Y haplogroup is E- V13 (still I dont have a precise results of my sublades of V13). Origin of my fathers family is from Lower Neretva area, especialy town Ljubuski and area around. My ancestor who converted to islam lived in that area cc 1554. (he was mentioned in one ottoman document Vacufnama), so I supposed that they are aboriginal in Lower Neretva and southern Herzegovina. Your idea that origin for E - V13 is Cetina culture is very interesting, because it is region close to southern Herzegovina, but it is historical fact that Lower Neretva was zone of greek colonisation (in town Narona), and Ljubuski area was zone of colonisation of veterans of roman legions (VII. legio CPF)i auxiliares units.

LeoJ
20-11-19, 11:01
Really thank you, pal. Despite the fact you're on point with the response, it isn't what i was talking about. An OPTIONAL genographic TREE is much more....much. I know would require some time to do it, but for a truly scientific approach must have an analytic/mathematical one. Where the presence of IF, AND, OR, ELSE, THEN, etc to be used like in a basic computer language. I'm not so seasoned with those specific genetic notions in relation with history, and for that I ask for a good reference from you to indicate me. I mean a comprehensive notions about haplogroups related to age, geographic distributions, cultures, historical ages, etc.....to make myself some sort of a grand-picture about all of that. Off course, in light with recent discoveries. I searched a lot the Internet and can't find an unitary approach, only bits of information about some and some others. When take into consideration the relation between specific cultures and subcultures, things get really messy and almost nobody can trace a distinct analytic picture. Maybe some books you can suggest....Example; the kurgan culture of north pontic area extended to the balkans and came into contact with already present ones, but approximate ages and time in relating with the continuity of the extension I can't find via Google. When Kurgan culture meet E-L618+ of the adriatic coast ? And thus the ancestors of the greeks (if we can speak about E-L618+ as an ancestor of those). And so on....
Thanks anyway for your time and response.

eastara
24-11-19, 01:06
The latest Roman study may be an indication what were the haplogroups of the Ancient Greeks and later Greek world, too. It is obvious E-V13 or even other subclades of E1b1b1 were only a minor haplogroups among them, J2a and J1 reign supreme, along with G2a and T1.

Leka
24-11-19, 20:42
The latest Roman study may be an indication what were the haplogroups of the Ancient Greeks and later Greek world, too. It is obvious E-V13 or even other subclades of E1b1b1 were only a minor haplogroups among them, J2a and J1 reign supreme, along with G2a and T1.

Yep, I would have to agree.

EASTEUROPID
24-11-19, 21:42
The latest Roman study may be an indication what were the haplogroups of the Ancient Greeks and later Greek world, too. It is obvious E-V13 or even other subclades of E1b1b1 were only a minor haplogroups among them, J2a and J1 reign supreme, along with G2a and T1.

Ancient samples of E-V13 is also not found anywhere in the Levant. And it’s also almost non-existent among Neolithic farmers. All E in the Levant is non E-M78. The only explanation that makes sense is that E-M78 migrated to Europe directly from North Africa in the Mesolithic or even prior to that.

Where do you think it came from?

Angela
24-11-19, 23:07
Really, after spending all your time here private messaging instead of posting, this is what you came up with?

Unbelievable.

EASTEUROPID
24-11-19, 23:12
Really, after spending all your time here private messaging instead of posting, this is what you came up with?

Unbelievable.

Who you talking to ?


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Progon
07-12-19, 20:46
I belong to Y-DNA E-V13 Berisha-Sopi cluster.

kingjohn
08-12-19, 19:51
Ancient samples of E-V13 is also not found anywhere in the Levant. And it’s also almost non-existent among Neolithic farmers. All E in the Levant is non E-M78. The only explanation that makes sense is that E-M78 migrated to Europe directly from North Africa in the Mesolithic or even prior to that.

Where do you think it came from?


not true check this
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2016/06/22/y-snp-calls-from-the-ancient-near-east/
while most of them were indeed e-z830 and e-m123 :thinking:
there is one e-m78 in PPNB remain
I1710 Levant PPNB E1b1b1a1-CTS675 calls (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i1710/)

Angela
08-12-19, 21:59
Honestly, how do they think it probably got to Europe????

Dropped from a spaceship? SHEESH!

EASTEUROPID
08-12-19, 22:21
Honestly, how do they think it probably got to Europe????

Dropped from a spaceship? SHEESH!

Fisherman from North Africa. We already know that iberomaurusian (the only culture where the father clade to E-V13 was found) culture had contact with european Cro magnon because their mtdna was european cromagnon in many samples.

Progon
08-12-19, 22:30
Fisherman from North Africa. We already know that iberomaurusian (the only culture where the father clade to E-V13 was found) culture had contact with european Cro magnon because their mtdna was european cromagnon in many samples.

I don:t think it's directly from North Africa.

It's rather from Egypt > Levant > Anatolia > Balkans.

E-M78 and it's cousin Y-DNA that Natufians carried were the pioneers of farming.

EASTEUROPID
08-12-19, 22:37
I don:t think it's directly from North Africa.

It's rather from Egypt > Levant > Anatolia > Balkans.

E-M78 and it's cousin Y-DNA that Natufians carried were the pioneers of farming.

There is no proof of this. E-V13 came directly from E-M78 it doesn’t come from its cousin Natufian branch and E-M78 is almost non existent in ancient levant. There were no Levant cultures that had a large amount of E-M78 that could have brought it into Europe during the Neolithic or later.


“Loosdrecht et al. (2018) analysed genome-wide data from seven ancient individuals from the Iberomaurusian Grotte des Pigeons site near Taforalt in eastern Morocco. The fossils were directly dated to between 15,100 and 13,900 calibrated years before present. The scientists found that all males belonged to haplogroup E1b1b, common among Afroasiatic males. The male specimens with sufficient nuclear DNA preservation belonged to the paternal haplogroup E1b1b1a1 (M78), with one skeleton bearing the E1b1b1a1b1 parent lineage to E-V13, one male specimen belonged to E1b1b (M215*).”

This is literally the only parent clade ever found to E-V13.

Progon
08-12-19, 22:48
There is no proof of this. E-V13 came directly from E-M78 it doesn’t come from its cousin Natufian branch and E-M78 is almost non existent in ancient levant. There were no Levant cultures that had a large amount of E-M78 that could have brought it into Europe during the Neolithic or later.


“Loosdrecht et al. (2018) analysed genome-wide data from seven ancient individuals from the Iberomaurusian Grotte des Pigeons site near Taforalt in eastern Morocco. The fossils were directly dated to between 15,100 and 13,900 calibrated years before present. The scientists found that all males belonged to haplogroup E1b1b, common among Afroasiatic males. The male specimens with sufficient nuclear DNA preservation belonged to the paternal haplogroup E1b1b1a1 (M78), with one skeleton bearing the E1b1b1a1b1 parent lineage to E-V13, one male specimen belonged to E1b1b (M215*).”

This is literally the only parent clade ever found to E-V13.

I already know that E-V13 is a descendant of E-M78. It's not rocket science to realize that. And i know that E-V13 with the Natufians share more distant common E-M35.

What i mean is that, Druze people in Levant do have E-V13. Let's see. Maybe we will find the immediate parent of E-V13 somewhere in East Anatolia. We don't know. The scenario posed by some people that western Iberomaurusians migrated to Iberia or Sicilia and from Sicilia to Balkans seems like funny made up stories.

Also, don't forget a sample from Neolithic Barcin Hoyuk from Anatolia is E-M35, i bet his downstream is E-M78.

Kelmendasi
08-12-19, 22:57
There is no proof of this. E-V13 came directly from E-M78 it doesn’t come from its cousin Natufian branch and E-M78 is almost non existent in ancient levant. There were no Levant cultures that had a large amount of E-M78 that could have brought it into Europe during the Neolithic or later.


“Loosdrecht et al. (2018) analysed genome-wide data from seven ancient individuals from the Iberomaurusian Grotte des Pigeons site near Taforalt in eastern Morocco. The fossils were directly dated to between 15,100 and 13,900 calibrated years before present. The scientists found that all males belonged to haplogroup E1b1b, common among Afroasiatic males. The male specimens with sufficient nuclear DNA preservation belonged to the paternal haplogroup E1b1b1a1 (M78), with one skeleton bearing the E1b1b1a1b1 parent lineage to E-V13, one male specimen belonged to E1b1b (M215*).”

This is literally the only parent clade ever found to E-V13.
E-L618, the father clade of V13, has been found in two Neolithic European sites so far. M78 was also found in Neolithic Hungary and Ukraine.

1. E-L618 from Zemunica cave, Croatia. Sample belonged to the Cardium Pottery Culture and was dated to have lived between 7,600-7,400ybp
2. E-L618 from Veszprem, Hungary. Sample belonged to the Lengyel Culture, dated to have lived between 6,780-6,700ybp
3. E-M78 from the outskirts of Budapest, Hungary. Belonged to the Sopot Culture, dated to have lived around 7,000-6,800ybp
4. E-M78 from Verteba cave, Ukraine. Belonged to the Cucuteni-Trypillian Culture, dated to have lived around 6,000-5,000ybp

Kelmendasi
08-12-19, 22:59
What i mean is that, Druze people in Levant do have E-V13.
The V13 found in the Middle East and West Asia is primarily of recent European origin. They all belong to rather recent downstreams that originated and expanded out of Europe. The only groups that I have come across whom have a more basal V13 are the Ossetians and some Kurds, who are CTS1273*. But even this E-CTS1273* is of European input as it surely arrived with IE speakers.

Angela
08-12-19, 23:00
Some people have nothing better to do than fantasize scenarios for which they have absolutely no proof.

When someone finds that Iberomaurusian sample in Iberia or Sicily far enough back in time to count let me know. Until then I'll stick with the more probable scenario.

Progon
08-12-19, 23:02
Or: THE ORIGIN AND SPREAD OF THE LATE MESOLITHIC BLADE AND TRAPEZE INDUSTRIES IN EUROPE...

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f63d/6de16a30c07590bb2acbc7e551eb1bdaf0db.pdf


Some people have nothing better to do than fantasize scenarios for which they have absolutely no proof.


When someone finds that Iberomaurusian sample in Iberia or Sicily far enough back in time to count let me know. Until then I'll stick with the more probable scenario.

I don't know in what context you refer, i said i have read people wild-guessing that Iberomaurusians hopped from North Africa to Sicilia and then to Balkans which there is absolutely no proof of. Also, there is a proof from a Serbian archeologist that certain Montenegrin Late Mesolithic culture has some Iberomaurusian features, and the race of the people was a tall Mediterranean. Iberomaurusians or their eastern brethren which might be the parent of E-V13 had robust features and were considerably tall.

Progon
08-12-19, 23:07
The V13 found in the Middle East and West Asia is primarily of recent European origin. They all belong to rather recent downstreams that originated and expanded out of Europe. The only groups that I have come across whom have a more basal V13 are the Ossetians and some Kurds, who are CTS1273*. But even this E-CTS1273* is of European input as it surely arrived with IE speakers.

That might be the case, but right now we are talking about different context. How the parent of E-V13 entered Europe. It's a huge mistery right now.

EASTEUROPID
08-12-19, 23:43
Some people have nothing better to do than fantasize scenarios for which they have absolutely no proof.

When someone finds that Iberomaurusian sample in Iberia or Sicily far enough back in time to count let me know. Until then I'll stick with the more probable scenario.

Which is what? What’s the more probable scenario? That it came from somewhere where the samples show it was almost non existent? E-M78 is almost non existent in both Neolithic european farmer samples and ancient Levant samples.


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EASTEUROPID
08-12-19, 23:46
E-L618, the father clade of V13, has been found in two Neolithic European sites so far. M78 was also found in Neolithic Hungary and Ukraine.

1. E-L618 from Zemunica cave, Croatia. Sample belonged to the Cardium Pottery Culture and was dated to have lived between 7,600-7,400ybp
2. E-L618 from Veszprem, Hungary. Sample belonged to the Lengyel Culture, dated to have lived between 6,780-6,700ybp
3. E-M78 from the outskirts of Budapest, Hungary. Belonged to the Sopot Culture, dated to have lived around 7,000-6,800ybp
4. E-M78 from Verteba cave, Ukraine. Belonged to the Cucuteni-Trypillian Culture, dated to have lived around 6,000-5,000ybp

Thanks for the information I’m going to look into all of those. But this doesn’t help explain from where E-M78 entered Europe.

Angela
09-12-19, 02:42
^^The "E" clades have moved across North Africa from east to west. What you're proposing is that E-V13 or its immediate predecessor made that trip all the way across North Africa to the straits, crossed them, and then traveled all the way east again to show up in Croatia, Hungary, Budapest and Ukraine in European Neolithic contexts, specifically the European Neolithic cultures which arrived from Anatolia?

How could that possibly be the most probable scenario.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but there isn't a shred of evidence that would support it, while meanwhile, as I said, E-V13s immediate predecessor is found in EEF contexts among people whose ancestors came from Anatolia.

Should any such evidence ever surface I'll be happy to accept it. I always follow the evidence. What possible difference could it make to me personally how it got into Europe? Actually, what possible difference could it make to anyone other than as a matter of intellectual curiosity. No need for all this emotion attached to it.

kingjohn
09-12-19, 17:27
also we can add this guy to ancient e-m78 list:

Epicardial Spain Avellaner cave, Catalonia [Ave 07] M 5000 BC E1b1b1a1b1a M35.1, V13, Ei in STR table U5 16051G; 16189C; 16270T source :Lacan 2011b

Kelmendasi
09-12-19, 19:23
also we can add this guy to ancient e-m78 list:

Epicardial Spain Avellaner cave, Catalonia [Ave 07] M 5000 BC E1b1b1a1b1a M35.1, V13, Ei in STR table U5 16051G; 16189C; 16270T source :Lacan 2011b
Many M78+ aDNA samples have been found. I was just listing the V13- samples which were found in Neolithic Europe.

V13 aDNA:
1) E-V13 from Avellaner cave, Spain. Belonged to the Cardium Pottery Culture, dated to have lived ~7,000ybp
2) E-CTS1273 from Glinoe, Moldova. Labelled as being a Scythian, though auDNA suggests that he was a Dacian. Recently confirmed to have lived between 400-200 BCE
3) E-Z1919 (likely V13+) from Svilengrad, Bulgaria. Was a Thracian who lived during the Iron Age, 2,800-2,500ybp
4) E-V13 from Crypta Balbi (Rome), Italy. Was a Roman who lived during late Antiquity, 1,600-1,400ybp
5) E-V13 from Karos, Hungary. Sample was from the Conqueror period, 1,105-1,050ybp
6) E-V13 from Szekkutas, Hungary. Sample was from the Middle-Late Avar period, 1,350-1,290ybp
7) E-V13 from Collegno, Italy. Sample was a Langobard (Lombard), dated to have lived between 1,500-1,400ybp
8) E-V13 from Girona, Spain. If I recall correctly this sample was labelled as being a Goth, though in terms of auDNA he was very Southern shifted and resembled Balkanites
9) E-V13 from Huescar, Spain. Dated between 1,000-900ybp
10) E-V13 from Cancelleria (Rome), Italy. Dated between 583-537ybp
11) E-L540 (Predicted) from Hradek nad Nisou, Czechia. Dated ~700ybp
12) E-V13 from Bogovej, Denmark. Sample was labelled as being a Viking, however autosomally was Southern shifted. 1,100-1,000ybp

dosas
09-12-19, 20:25
Angela, it's just that some people in the genetic enthusiast crowd don't like the fact that the male ancestor of the hg probably looked more like Afrika Bambaataa and less than Ragnar Lothbrok, lol.

Progon
09-12-19, 20:48
E-M78 didn't look like Sub-Saharans or Middle Easternes or Europeans.

They were part of Mechta-Afalou, Mechtoid race.

kingjohn
09-12-19, 20:52
Kelemandasi
thanks 👍
Up until now the avellander cave guy is the earliest e-v13 in europan ancient remain(so i thought it is important to mention him)😉
Dosas i think by the time they reached europe
they could have looked like regular med people...

blevins13
09-12-19, 21:28
Angela, it's just that some people in the genetic enthusiast crowd don't like the fact that the male ancestor of the hg probably looked more like Afrika Bambaataa and less than Ragnar Lothbrok, lol.

Un po di abbronzzatura non a mai fato male a nessuno. Anche Barak era un po abronzato për Berlusconi.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Tutkun Arnaut
09-12-19, 21:31
^^The "E" clades have moved across North Africa from east to west. What you're proposing is that E-V13 or its immediate predecessor made that trip all the way across North Africa to the straits, crossed them, and then traveled all the way east again to show up in Croatia, Hungary, Budapest and Ukraine in European Neolithic contexts, specifically the European Neolithic cultures which arrived from Anatolia?

How could that possibly be the most probable scenario.


I'm not saying it's impossible, but there isn't a shred of evidence that would support it, while meanwhile, as I said, E-V13s immediate predecessor is found in EEF contexts among people whose ancestors came from Anatolia.

Should any such evidence ever surface I'll be happy to accept it. I always follow the evidence. What possible difference could it make to me personally how it got into Europe? Actually, what possible difference could it make to anyone other than as a matter of intellectual curiosity. No need for all this emotion attached to it.


The best scenario is West Asia. E V13 is an indo European clade. Together with R and J. Rome also adds to this scenario.

EASTEUROPID
09-12-19, 21:49
Many M78+ aDNA samples have been found. I was just listing the V13- samples which were found in Neolithic Europe.

V13 aDNA:
1) E-V13 from Avellaner cave, Spain. Belonged to the Cardium Pottery Culture, dated to have lived ~7,000ybp
2) E-CTS1273 from Glinoe, Moldova. Labelled as being a Scythian, though auDNA suggests that he was a Dacian. Recently confirmed to have lived between 400-200 BCE
3) E-Z1919 (likely V13+) from Svilengrad, Bulgaria. Was a Thracian who lived during the Iron Age, 2,800-2,500ybp
4) E-V13 from Crypta Balbi (Rome), Italy. Was a Roman who lived during late Antiquity, 1,600-1,400ybp
5) E-V13 from Karos, Hungary. Sample was from the Conqueror period, 1,105-1,050ybp
6) E-V13 from Szekkutas, Hungary. Sample was from the Middle-Late Avar period, 1,350-1,290ybp
7) E-V13 from Collegno, Italy. Sample was a Langobard (Lombard), dated to have lived between 1,500-1,400ybp
8) E-V13 from Girona, Spain. If I recall correctly this sample was labelled as being a Goth, though in terms of auDNA he was very Southern shifted and resembled Balkanites
9) E-V13 from Huescar, Spain. Dated between 1,000-900ybp
10) E-V13 from Cancelleria (Rome), Italy. Dated between 583-537ybp
11) E-L540 (Predicted) from Hradek nad Nisou, Czechia. Dated ~700ybp
12) E-V13 from Bogovej, Denmark. Sample was labelled as being a Viking, however autosomally was Southern shifted. 1,100-1,000ybp

Cardium pottery culture came from the Palestine area correct? Were any E-V13 samples found there ? Or did this culture assimilate E-V13 when it moved into Europe?

EASTEUROPID
09-12-19, 21:51
The best scenario is West Asia. E V13 is an indo European clade. Together with R and J. Rome also adds to this scenario.

Why is that the best scenario when E-M78 is almost non existent in West Asia, both ancient samples and modern distribution.

EASTEUROPID
09-12-19, 21:55
Angela, it's just that some people in the genetic enthusiast crowd don't like the fact that the male ancestor of the hg probably looked more like Afrika Bambaataa and less than Ragnar Lothbrok, lol.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191209/89d739d9cafc4f091de73e833f6ad0a2.jpg


He looked like neither of those lol.

This is E-V13 look lmao

Aspurg
09-12-19, 22:13
It is no fantasy whatsoever that E-V13 arrived to Europe directly from North Africa, and that it did not arrive from Levant. This is pre-history and those without archaeological knowledge are basically blind..


So..


There exists archaeological evidence for such migration, in the form of Capsian elements in Late Mesolithic site Crvena Stijena III in modern West Montenegro. What is interesting is that this particular site had direct connections to the site where L618 was found in Dalmatia. 100 % people from Crvena Stijena also participated in some form in Cardial Dalmatian Neolithic culture. Dalmatian Neolithic is known to have had some Meoslithic influence, also autosomally seen in one sample there with a bunch of blue eye mutations and WHG influence.
To quote Yugoslav archaeologist Borivoj Čović:
The culture of Mesolithic inhabitants of Crvena Stijena is firmly tied to the contemporary cultures of Northern Africa, especially to those of so-called Capsian type... The congruence in shapes of a large number of smaller tools (out of which some are highly specialized tools for fine processing of skin and bones) are of such degree that they do not leave much space to doubt, and primarily Northafrican origin not only of these forms but also of the Mesolithic population of Crvena Stijena.


Furthermore going by current genetic evidence the Dalmatian Cardial sample is negative to two SNP's at the L618 level, that in addition to their current spread might be used as evidence to suggest all of current L618, V13- samples are of European origin. For one L618 clade that already seems obvious. Second clade has Latvian-Lebanese connection but this connection is not Neolithic it is 4800 years old. So either the Lebanese is a descendant of L618 who stayed in Levant or he arrived in EBA from Europe, considering the current evidence latter is more likely.


Interestingly as I mentioned here, there was a skull cult throughout the Dalmatian Cardial Neolithic, without any doubt this pratice is something that was very important to those people. The problem is its origin is unclear. First connotation were Natufians but typologically it resembles more the Mesolithic practices found in Iron Gates culture as well as in some Croatian late Mesolithic sites. As Iberomaurusians and Capsians also showed signs of special treatment of skulls, so direct North African connotation of this cult cannot be excluded.


Additionally in Dalmatian Neolithic the burial practice of leaving the deceased, except chiefs, to be unburied and eaten by wild animals in wilderness has been compared to Maasai by a Yugoslav archaeologist.


But think of this, if E-V13 did arrive from Levant in Neolithic as part of Cardial Pottery wave, then this skull cult descends of Natufians, and because of its importance it can be postulated that the E-V13 throughout Neolithic never spoke Etruscan or some usual EEF, but rather Afroasiatic. From my perspective preferably something proto-Egyptian-like (when I was 12 I knew lot about most pyramids) and Semitic ethnogenesis is closely associated with later J1-Z2331, J2-M205 spread.

Autosomally Dalmatian Neolithic samples had small Iberomaurusian-like influence that EEF's by and large lacked. Though one can connect this to Natufians as well who were 27 % Iberomaurusian.

Aspurg
09-12-19, 22:18
He looked like neither of those lol.

This is E-V13 look lmao

North African Afalou combined with coarse robust proto-Mediterranean type were main Capsian types. So yes as far as I'm concerned it is in my interest that my ancestors were that rather than the EEF sea of usual small gracile, peaceful Meds.. Though they ended up being mainly that in Neolithic regardless like most of Europe.. :D

Angela
09-12-19, 22:48
^^Oh, so it's better to be a "coarse" type than a gracile type???

Who says?

What utter nonsense.

As for them coming directly from North Africa to Europe, that would be perfectly fine with me. However, you have absolutely no proof for it. When you have an ancient sample which even suggests that, please do let us know.

Until then, it's all just hot air.

Aspurg
09-12-19, 22:56
Angela, it's just that some people in the genetic enthusiast crowd don't like the fact that the male ancestor of the hg probably looked more like Afrika Bambaataa and less than Ragnar Lothbrok, lol.

E1b1b and E1b1a diverged about the same time I and J diverged. In fact our haplogroup folk are a prime example of people working on improving themselves and dominating others. Iberomaurusians samples are clear Ancestral North African like types that went around North Africa and Near East alot, taking so many various females, and mtdna lineages so that Iberomaurusians were pred. autosomally Eurasian. This happened for thousands of years, and all those females gladly accepted the pastoral E1b1b men more so than various L, T etc... The only J people left with their original language are Chechens, Dagestanis etc. The only G people who kept theirs are Kartvelians, Circassians. So E1b1b is as successful as R1. And of course not for forget proto-Turkic Q.

And I don't mind my ancestor looking like Lebron James, Deontay Wilder, or Mike Tyson even if it were the case (and it wasn't). Pigmentation itself is almost nothing except some personal cosmetic sense. Larger bones, mandibles/jaws, muscles etc. is.

Of course you forget to mention that the I Mesolithic people who might have been the ancestors of Ragnar were dark skinned people. If some English Americans or Spanish Conquistadors had encountered them, they would have considered them as "Blacks". Not to mention the fact that these R1 English and Spanish did encounter in Native Americans their own ancestors! They diverged comparatively much later, 28 000 years ago. So if E1b1b and E1b1a are same why are I and J not the same and why are R and Q not the same either? The R1 men did similar thing as E1b1b men, totally altering themselves by taking a range of hg I and other autosomes. That's what successful groups do, they move around alot encounter a range of adversaries, pick up experience and genes etc., they simply socially evolve at higher pace.

Tutkun Arnaut
09-12-19, 23:14
Why is that the best scenario when E-M78 is almost non existent in West Asia, both ancient samples and modern distribution.
Had e v13 came from Africa, countries like Albania, Greece, Bulgaria etc where E is at least a quarter of males, should have an abundance of mtDna L African. Instead that MtDna is completely missing, suggesting they were marring Euro women, which suggest they were somewhere in west Asia. Also non Indo-European countries like Finland, Estonia completely miss E v13, instead Sweden an Indo-European country has a good chunk of it

EASTEUROPID
09-12-19, 23:17
Had e v13 came from Africa, countries like Albania, Greece, Bulgaria etc where E is at least a quarter of males, should have an abundance of mtDna L African. Instead that MtDna is completely missing, suggesting they were marring Euro women, which suggest they were somewhere in west Asia. Also non Indo-European countries like Finland, Estonia completely miss E v13, instead Sweden an Indo-European country has a good chunk of it

Iberomaurusians were already abundant in european cro-magnon mtdna and other non African mtdna living in North Africa. So I don’t see why that would be the case.

Aspurg
09-12-19, 23:21
^^Oh, so it's better to be a "coarse" type than a gracile type???

No, not necessarily because Gorilla is far coarser than any Men, and Neantherthal was coarser than any Humans. I would say coarse in a balanced way, but at time in history most people were coarse. Coarse females are usually not perceived as attractive/feminine.



Who says?

What utter nonsense.

I guess women are better judges, and we all know what most women like these days. Generally a degree of robusticity is prefered, albeit in a balanced way.
Also I've seen you here saying in another topic something along the line "not all of our Italian men are small Meds", so sounds to me that "small Med" is not so "desired" eh? :) Truth be told "small Med" are often very balanced, far more than most coarser types, it just lacks some robusticity.



As for them coming directly from North Africa to Europe, that would be perfectly fine with me. However, you have absolutely no proof for it. When you have an ancient sample which even suggests that, please do let us know.

Until then, it's all just hot air.

I presented you some archaeological proof from people with "authority". And from genetic side few indications.. There is no clear proof for many things and yet people still speculate about it. On the other hand if one wants 100 % proof, I suggest wait for 10 or 20 years when it's all settled, but ofc when it is, it is not as interesting..

Progon
09-12-19, 23:29
E1b1b and E1b1a diverged about the same I and J diverged. In fact our haplogroup are a prime example of people working on improving themselves and dominating others. Iberomaurusians samples are clear Ancestral North African like types that went around North Africa and Near East alot, taking so many various females, and mtdna lineages so that Iberomaurusians were pred. autosomally Eurasian. This happened for thousands of years, and all those females gladly accepted the pastoral E1b1b men more so than various L, T etc... The only J people left with their original language are Chechens, Dagestanis etc. The only G people who kept theirs are Kartvelians, Circassians. So E1b1b is as successful as R1. And of course not for forget proto-Turkic Q.

And I don't mind my ancestor looking like Lebron James, Deontay Wilder, or Mike Tyson even if it were the case (and it wasn't). Pigmentation itself is almost nothing except some personal cosmetic sense. Larger bones, mandibles/jaws, muscles etc. is.

Of course you forget to mention that the I Mesolithic people who might have been the ancestors of Ragnar were dark skinned people. If some English Americans or Spanish Conquistadors had encountered them, they would have considered them as "Blacks". Not to mention the fact that these R1 English and Spanish did encounter in Native Americans their own ancestors! They diverged comparatively much later, 28 000 years ago. So if E1b1b and E1b1a are same why are I and J not the same and why are R and Q not the same either? The R1 men did similar thing as E1b1b men, totally altering themselves by taking a range of hg I and other autosomes. That's what successful groups do, they move around alot encounter a range of adversaries, pick up experience and genes etc., they simply socially evolve at higher pace.

I totally agree with you. Also, E1b1a heavily mixed with more Y-DNA B and A carrying Sub-Saharans, so we don't really know how they looked like initially. But their evolutionary route is way different than E1b1b's. Sort of similar like R1 and Q's.

Angela
09-12-19, 23:39
Of course I meant no pejorative against gracile med types. To my eyes, most of the most beautiful people in the world, men and women both, are at least partly gracile med.

See this thread post 20.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39554-Time-for-some-fun-Guess-this-man?p=592625#post592625

On the other hand, a little coarseness of feature doesn't spoil it, and may even enhance it, but even someone as gorgeous as Engin Akyurek would look better without that really heavy eyebone area. A little of it goes a long way. Personal preference, I understand.

As I said upthread, I don't personally care how E-V13 got into Europe. I just think that the evidence right now, based on the fact that immediate predecessors are in Cardial Neolithic and other Balkan Neolithic samples, is that it came to Europe via West Asia, either with the Neolithic farmers or slightly before. There are no genetic samples in North Africa which would indicate otherwise.

If for some reason you want to believe that, believe it.

Progon
09-12-19, 23:47
Ancient Egyptians might well have been ones who preserved Ancient North African look.

https://www.auntminnie.com/user/images/content_images/sup_cto/2016_08_25_15_59_18_798_melbourne_mummy_400.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4a/ce/a9/4acea9575a478aafebef7bc6689b8e97.jpg

Aspurg
09-12-19, 23:59
I totally agree with you. Also, E1b1a heavily mixed with more Y-DNA B and A carrying Sub-Saharans, so we don't really know how they looked like initially. But their evolutionary route is way different than E1b1b's. Sort of similar like R1 and Q's.

Oh yes ofc E1b1a ancestors looked differently. I believe plenty of current "Bantu" traits are considered newer. Papuans are a good measure for the look of so many older populations.
Also Yoruba Nigerians are 13 % Iberomaurusian autosomally.

aci
10-12-19, 00:07
Of course I meant no pejorative against gracile med types. To my eyes, most of the most beautiful people in the world, men and women both, are at least partly gracile med.

See this thread post 20.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39554-Time-for-some-fun-Guess-this-man?p=592625#post592625

On the other hand, a little coarseness of feature doesn't spoil it, and may even enhance it, but even someone as gorgeous as Engin Akyurek would look better without that really heavy eyebone area. A little of it goes a long way. Personal preference, I understand.

As I said upthread, I don't personally care how E-V13 got into Europe. I just think that the evidence right now, based on the fact that immediate predecessors are in Cardial Neolithic and other Balkan Neolithic samples, is that it came to Europe via West Asia, either with the Neolithic farmers or slightly before. There are no genetic samples in North Africa which would indicate otherwise.

If for some reason you want to believe that, believe it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRz8uERFQ2g

aci
10-12-19, 00:08
^^Oh, so it's better to be a "coarse" type than a gracile type???

Who says?

What utter nonsense.

As for them coming directly from North Africa to Europe, that would be perfectly fine with me. However, you have absolutely no proof for it. When you have an ancient sample which even suggests that, please do let us know.

Until then, it's all just hot air.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRz8uERFQ2g

aci
10-12-19, 00:17
^^The "E" clades have moved across North Africa from east to west. What you're proposing is that E-V13 or its immediate predecessor made that trip all the way across North Africa to the straits, crossed them, and then traveled all the way east again to show up in Croatia, Hungary, Budapest and Ukraine in European Neolithic contexts, specifically the European Neolithic cultures which arrived from Anatolia?

How could that possibly be the most probable scenario.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but there isn't a shred of evidence that would support it, while meanwhile, as I said, E-V13s immediate predecessor is found in EEF contexts among people whose ancestors came from Anatolia.

Should any such evidence ever surface I'll be happy to accept it. I always follow the evidence. What possible difference could it make to me personally how it got into Europe? Actually, what possible difference could it make to anyone other than as a matter of intellectual curiosity. No need for all this emotion attached to it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRz8uERFQ2g

aci
10-12-19, 00:19
Some people have nothing better to do than fantasize scenarios for which they have absolutely no proof.

When someone finds that Iberomaurusian sample in Iberia or Sicily far enough back in time to count let me know. Until then I'll stick with the more probable scenario.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRz8uERFQ2g

aci
10-12-19, 00:23
Honestly, how do they think it probably got to Europe????

Dropped from a spaceship? SHEESH!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRz8uERFQ2g

kingjohn
10-12-19, 17:58
In the e3b project: there are 5 cases of finnish e-v13
it is not common there but it is still found there(although not indo-european country as someone here mentioned)🤔
I have no idea when it arrived to finland ....🤔

MOESAN
11-12-19, 00:26
I'm glad someones have had robust viril ancestors. Good. That said, it's not always the giants pops which evolve better, even in health and posterity. Social skills can help too. half LOL.

Concerning the Last or "Second" Mesolithic phenomenon, nobody knows clearly when it originated; seemingly, the Ukraine hypothesis is rather dead. What we know is that at first it linked Montenegro/Dalmatia, South-Italy and Tunisia, not the whole North Africa; and the origin of this technic and people is still unsure. And this technic (and surely some people carrying it) moved quickly enough towards S-E Iberia (not the whole), coastal Croatia, 2 spots in N-Italy, France Provence and around the Loire mouth between today Brittany and coastal Poitou. After it reached Algeria. Then they disappeared from S-Italy, expanding into Portugal, coastal N-Spain, some places in France Alps and of Northern Europe. It disappeared later from North Africa. Whatever the supposed muscular bearers of it, it seems this culture did only flee before the Neolithic advance of the "gracile Neolithicers" (!) and just before to fade out remained in only in N-France (+ 1 spot in Jura), in Spanish Basque country, the lowlands of Belgium and the Netherlands...
Knowing that the montenegro E-V13 had a rather great diversity in their haplotypes, I thought some years ago in a possible passage through Tunisia. The today anDNA data seems showing a late demographic expansion in S-Balkans around Bronze Age after a long enough period of stagnation. ATW if some EV13 were among the bearers of this "Second Mesolithic", they did not bring it in big numbers towards W-Europe. The Neolithic Catalan Cave E-V13 nevertheless, is still to consider, in some way. And even in this hypothesis, nothing proves us this culture was not bring to N-Africa from Europe. Exchanges can have occurred on the two directions, but this culture is not to be amalgamated with the general Capsian one.
So I prefer to stay prudent here.

&: if we look at the Y-E1b tree, we see the downstream of M78 branched into 2 groups, approximatively one North African, the other exclusively "European", this last under Z1919 with new branching between V13 and L677, both among Europeans. So the separation could be old enough, so could take place in more than a region according to our imagination.

Concerning Finland, E-V13 is surely rare there; on the Maciamo's map (thanks to him) it appears as limited to far South, region not typically Finnish at all, at first. Finns of today are no more the previous Finnic-Ugric people, since long ago, and their genesis is complicated enough. BTW true Finns were rather last newcomers. To keep in mind: there is almost no country in Europe where there is not regional variations of means, except Malta or Greek Cyprus, perhaps, so speaking of a rare uniparental markers national mean...

&&: these stories of "black" Paleo-Mesolithic Europeans are boring at last. They were dark skinned in some way, but were not to be confused with SAA people of to date, phenotypically speaking, even if we can imagine very far ancestors of both shared more traits than we do now. Human beings evolved, keeping one to one some common features when the other features changed, no group changing the same ones nor keeping the same ones.
I 'm glad to read someones here know what look had the Y-E-V13 bearers (or their close ancestors) when coming to Europe.

kingjohn
11-12-19, 01:01
Moesean all the 5 finnish e-v13
i checked :
4 from south finland , 1 from north central finland....
so as you said mainly in the south....
can someone explain to me what people here say about robust appearance ????
like what
square jaw , tall, ? :thinking:
and how do we know e-v13 were like that when they arrived to europe. ?

Aspurg
14-12-19, 00:40
The V13 found in the Middle East and West Asia is primarily of recent European origin. They all belong to rather recent downstreams that originated and expanded out of Europe. The only groups that I have come across whom have a more basal V13 are the Ossetians and some Kurds, who are CTS1273*. But even this E-CTS1273* is of European input as it surely arrived with IE speakers.

And now we've got another Ossetian E-V13 result: E-CTS9320*! I donated for his SNP Pack cause he was a candidate for Z17107 but this result makes things more interesting for E-CTS9320! So both Ossetian V13's have no matches with anyone. Ossetian CTS9320 must be some Thraco-Cimmerian, if he is not Greek colonist (very unlikely). And I thought already this cluster has some connection to Thraco-Cimmerians. Above CTS9320 cluster found in Bulgaria and now I see one Albanian too (one Vlach from Greece as well), but there are many unusual unprofiled haplotypes in the East which could yield interesting results.. First Caucasian CTS9320+, there are others but thus far I only tested few for my SNP. One Georgian is 100 % some CTS9320.