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View Full Version : my recent family finder 'ethnic results'



Maleth
21-01-15, 16:13
59% Southern European
25% Asia Minor
7% Eastern Middle east
6% North African
2% Finland and Northern Siberia

:rolleyes2:

Angela
21-01-15, 16:44
59% Southern European
25% Asia Minor
7% Eastern Middle east
6% North African
2% Finland and Northern Siberia

:rolleyes2:

Sorry, Maleth...here I go with my strong opinions again...FTDNA stinks as far as autosomal analysis is concerned. :grin:

McDonald set it up, and so far as I know, the Ashkenazim are still one of the reference populations for Middle East, which mucks up all the results as far as I'm concerned. Even 23andme is better, and that's a mess too.

Maleth
21-01-15, 17:41
Sorry, Maleth...here I go with my strong opinions again...FTDNA stinks as far as autosomal analysis is concerned. :grin:

McDonald set it up, and so far as I know, the Ashkenazim are still one of the reference populations for Middle East, which mucks up all the results as far as I'm concerned. Even 23andme is better, and that's a mess too.

Thanks for your strong opinions.... much appreciated :grin:.

Aberdeen
21-01-15, 18:07
So, if I have my Y and mtDNA results from FTDNA, could I send the information to another company and get autosomal information from them, or am I stuck with FTDNA?

Sile
21-01-15, 18:38
Thanks for your strong opinions.... much appreciated :grin:.

McDonald did the very old family finder with Ftdna , he has not been involved with them for over 2 years. The new one is created by ...IIRC ....Dr. David Mittelman, Chief Scientific Officer, at Family Tree DNA (http://www.familytreedna.com/cj.aspx?ftdna_ref=336%20) with Razib Khan and Rui Hu, the creators of MyOrigins


Go join Gedmatch , it's free, once they give you a kit # it will be F followed by your ftdna kit#. Then you can use all the other dozen AuDna "companies" on the gedmatch site.

Angela
21-01-15, 18:42
McDonald did the very old family finder with Ftdna , he has not been involved with them for over 2 years. The new one is created by ...IIRC ....Dr. David Mittelman, Chief Scientific Officer, at Family Tree DNA (http://www.familytreedna.com/cj.aspx?ftdna_ref=336%20) with Razib Khan and Rui Hu, the creators of MyOrigins


Go join Gedmatch , it's free, once they give you a kit # it will be F followed by your ftdna kit#. Then you can use all the other dozen AuDna "companies" on the gedmatch site.


Have they published a "White Paper" explaining their methodology, as 23andme has done? If not that, perhaps they've published a list of the reference populations? I'd be interested in seeing whether they are still the same.

Sile
21-01-15, 19:33
Have they published a "White Paper" explaining their methodology, as 23andme has done? If not that, perhaps they've published a list of the reference populations? I'd be interested in seeing whether they are still the same.

Should be a link in here

http://dna-explained.com/2014/05/11/family-tree-dna-releases-myorigins/

Maleth
22-01-15, 07:55
So, if I have my Y and mtDNA results from FTDNA, could I send the information to another company and get autosomal information from them, or am I stuck with FTDNA?

I think there are some companies that do allow uploading autosmomal info to others, but Im not sure who allows it and how that works yet.

Maleth
22-01-15, 08:04
Should be a link in here

http://dna-explained.com/2014/05/11/family-tree-dna-releases-myorigins/

Thanks for this link. I missed it. I will try to join Gedmatch (Gave it a look and it looks a little complex for me at least, but I will spend some more time checking it out as Im a little short of (free) time at present)

They also do like coloured clouds over the mentioned regions.

So 59% South European covers Portugal Spain Italy and Southern Balkans
25% Asia Minor covers Turkey Azerbaijan Armenia and Georgia
(these are all same latidue more or less)

7% Easter Middle east covers Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Israel and Egypt
6% North African covers Morroco
2% Finland and North Siberia Covers what it states.

I also note there 1% missing. Hmm what is it? Neandertal? it dosent say.

Angela
22-01-15, 17:00
@Sile, This is the list of reference populations being used.
https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/autosomal-ancestry/ethnic-origins/reference-populations-used/

There hasn't been any change. They are still including the Ashkenazim in the Middle East reference population, for example. (Well, I'm assuming it's the Ashkenazim, as that's what it was before. In the list it just says "Jewish", which can mean different things.) So, that will be off for southern Europeans.

There are some other questionable groupings as well.

@Maleth, The calculators based on the raw results from 23andme and FtDNA and others can be fun to play around with, but it has to be kept in mind that these "components" don't come with a date stamp, and they "hide" all sorts of more ancient components. Just as one example, in Dodecad, for example, northern Italians have a small percentage of SW Asian, which is the Levant or even slightly south of that. There was a lot of commentary to the effect that this must have arrived in Italy from the Levant post Neolithic. The only problem is that Oetzi already had more than that percentage of that component in 3300 BC. Does that mean that the amount present in Italians today, north to south, is all attributable to the Neolithic? Not necessarily, but certainly much of it probably does date to that time period, at least in a lot of areas. Do you see what I mean?

Maleth, it isn't all that hard to use gedmatch. The hardest part is just downloading your genome from FTDNA onto your computer. Then you just upload it to gedmatch. Under the admixture/ancestry link you can find calculators by various bloggers. If you have problems, just holler. Most of us have done it.

Maleth
23-01-15, 19:35
@Maleth, The calculators based on the raw results from 23andme and FtDNA and others can be fun to play around with, but it has to be kept in mind that these "components" don't come with a date stamp, and they "hide" all sorts of more ancient components. Just as one example, in Dodecad, for example, northern Italians have a small percentage of SW Asian, which is the Levant or even slightly south of that. There was a lot of commentary to the effect that this must have arrived in Italy from the Levant post Neolithic. The only problem is that Oetzi already had more than that percentage of that component in 3300 BC. Does that mean that the amount present in Italians today, north to south, is all attributable to the Neolithic? Not necessarily, but certainly much of it probably does date to that time period, at least in a lot of areas. Do you see what I mean?

Maleth, it isn't all that hard to use gedmatch. The hardest part is just downloading your genome from FTDNA onto your computer. Then you just upload it to gedmatch. Under the admixture/ancestry link you can find calculators by various bloggers. If you have problems, just holler. Most of us have done it.

Thanks for info Angela, and I understand your point. Another point is that my Great grand father was English from Surrey (Rixon) and there is not even a hint of that. I am not sure how this ethnicity works? Does this get through to all the family from both sides? and from when to when? I will try to see if I can find some easy to digest information about it.

I had a quick try on Gedmatch signed up dowloaded raw data uploaded it and all im getting now is

Kits marked with * have not been tokenized and have not completed batch processing.





EDIT or DELETE your DNA resource profiles. (http://v2.gedmatch.com/resource_mgmt1.php)



I deleted and uploaded once more but got the same message. I think I will give it a break now and try and read and read and read (my poor eyes :)) to see if I can finally get it right :petrified: :grin:

Maleth
24-01-15, 10:02
I found this very helpful and easy to follow. So after all, siblings can get different results since autosmal dna is not inherited at same percentages from grand parents. This can vary from one sibling to the other.........

http://www.dnainheritance.kahikatea.net/autosomal.html

Angela
24-01-15, 20:02
Maleth:So 59% South European covers Portugal Spain Italy and Southern Balkans
25% Asia Minor covers Turkey Azerbaijan Armenia and Georgia
(these are all same latidue more or less)
7% Easter Middle east covers Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Israel and Egypt
6% North African covers Morroco
2% Finland and North Siberia Covers what it states.

This is where it gets a little confusing if we're going to be precise. Those aren't the reference populations for Southern European; those are the areas where it clusters. In the case of southern European, for example, as per their list of reference populations in their white paper, "Southern Europe" is

Southern European




Italian




Sardinian




Tuscan


The "Italian" is doubtless the Bergamo sample.
https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/autosomal-ancestry/ethnic-origins/reference-populations-used/

So, in your case, 59% of your genome is related to the genomes of these three groups. For Middle Eastern, the reference groups are Druze and Palestinians, and probably the Bedouin, although the chart isn't totally clear. "Asia Minor" is definitely the Adygei (Circassians) and the Iranians. It's not clear from the chart if the Jews are used as references for the Middle East or for Asia Minor, and which "Jews" are used. It's my understanding that they are the Ashkenazim, and that they were used as part of the reference sample for Middle East. If that's wrong, perhaps people with more familiarity with FTDNA can correct the record here. At any rate, to use them either for aMiddle East or an Asia Minor reference sample shows, I think, a fundamental lack of appreciation for the ethnogenesis of the Ashkenaz people.

It's also important to realize that these "clusters" don't come with a date stamp, although maybe we can make some educated guesses for an area, if not for an individual.

When you do the Dodecad analysis, the Southern European may be roughly analogous to his "Mediterranean"; the Middle Eastern to his SW Asian; Asia Minor to West Asian.


Another point is that my Great grand father was English from Surrey (Rixon) and there is not even a hint of that. I am not sure how this ethnicity works? Does this get through to all the family from both sides?

You are the product of all your ancestors. I would have thought the English great grandfather might have lowered some of these more Mediterranean and "West Asian" components and might have provided some "West European". However, once you get to great grandparent level and beyond, you can start "losing" dna from certain ancestors. That's why I'm not much of a genealogy person even though I've expanded some of the trees done by relatives just to see if I could pick up different trails from other countries and regions. Even if I have an "illustrious" ancestor up the tree somewhere, I might share absolutely no dna with him. (In my case, the anarchist, anti-landlord milieu of my area has left enough influence on me that I would prefer not to share any dna with any of these robber barons, so it's all good.:grin: )


I found this very helpful and easy to follow. So after all, siblings can get different results since autosmal dna is not inherited at same percentages from grand parents. This can vary from one sibling to the other.........

It can vary by a few percent, but I've never seen it vary by more than that, at least not on 23andme. In fact, I've never seen more than a few percent variation even in a small village, whatever the difference in "appearance", for example.


Did you get gedmatch to work? I've never seen that error message.

Maleth
25-01-15, 08:37
This is where it gets a little confusing if we're going to be precise. Those aren't the reference populations for Southern European; those are the areas where it clusters. In the case of southern European, for example, as per their list of reference populations in their white paper, "Southern Europe" is

Southern European




Italian




Sardinian




Tuscan


The "Italian" is doubtless the Bergamo sample.
https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/autosomal-ancestry/ethnic-origins/reference-populations-used/

So, in your case, 59% of your genome is related to the genomes of these three groups. For Middle Eastern, the reference groups are Druze and Palestinians, and probably the Bedouin, although the chart isn't totally clear. "Asia Minor" is definitely the Adygei (Circassians) and the Iranians. It's not clear from the chart if the Jews are used as references for the Middle East or for Asia Minor, and which "Jews" are used. It's my understanding that they are the Ashkenazim, and that they were used as part of the reference sample for Middle East. If that's wrong, perhaps people with more familiarity with FTDNA can correct the record here. At any rate, to use them either for aMiddle East or an Asia Minor reference sample shows, I think, a fundamental lack of appreciation for the ethnogenesis of the Ashkenaz people.

It's also important to realize that these "clusters" don't come with a date stamp, although maybe we can make some educated guesses for an area, if not for an individual.

When you do the Dodecad analysis, the Southern European may be roughly analogous to his "Mediterranean"; the Middle Eastern to his SW Asian; Asia Minor to West Asian.

Thanks for your patience to explain + link...much appreciated. So we know with which populations the comparisons are made. As an amateur, I find it a little strange however that example the Italian samples cover the whole South European region including Spain. (Its interesting just to learn on the methodologies involved)


You are the product of all your ancestors. I would have thought the English great grandfather might have lowered some of these more Mediterranean and "West Asian" components and might have provided some "West European". However, once you get to great grandparent level and beyond, you can start "losing" dna from certain ancestors.

I noticed that from the chart in the link I posted, also just learned today that my Great grand father (from England) mum was actually Jewish so I presume that would bring back the genome from that side back to the Med (if it works like that as its not always the case with Jewish Mtdna depending on the origins)


That's why I'm not much of a genealogy person even though I've expanded some of the trees done by relatives just to see if I could pick up different trails from other countries and regions. Even if I have an "illustrious" ancestor up the tree somewhere, I might share absolutely no dna with him. (In my case, the anarchist, anti-landlord milieu of my area has left enough influence on me that I would prefer not to share any dna with any of these robber barons, so it's all good.:grin: )

Haha this passed through my mind so many times its so true. When I read about the orgins of my surname of how it arrived here in 1200's (documented) with 'privileges' in very turbulant times, Im not too sure if in reality it can be romanticised as much some people do :petrified: :thinking:



Did you get gedmatch to work? I've never seen that error message.

Re Gedmatch I have now come across this in the help section...

Before deleting any kits, please note the following:

1. If you have recently uploaded a kit, and are not getting many matches, it may be that processing is not finished. It can take a couple of days for all processing to complete, depending on the current number of kits being processed. The column 'Date Batch Processed' will show 'zeros' if batch processing is not completed for this kit.

so im going to give it a few days to see what happens. I feel I have done it right and not much more I can do. If nothing happens I will delete and relaod. I did not know what tokenized mean, and figured out from online dictionary that probably it needs to be sort of authenticated and processed from the side of GedMatch and it could also take a few days. (Just hoping of course) In the meantime I will listen to lots of Vivaldi and Lully :grin:....... Im off to what 'Music are you listening to' now...........:)

Maleth
31-01-15, 13:06
From GedMatch
NOTICE: (January 26) Some kits uploaded since about Jan 19 were not properly processed. We will be reprocessing the affected kits.
It may take about a week to get caught up. You do not need to do anything.

:bored:

Maleth
05-02-15, 15:45
From GedMatch
NOTICE: (January 26) Some kits uploaded since about Jan 19 were not properly processed. We will be reprocessing the affected kits.
It may take about a week to get caught up. You do not need to do anything.

:bored:

NOTICE: Batch processing is taking several days longer than usual. We appreciate your patience during this time.

:20:

John Doe
05-02-15, 16:10
My FTDNA "My Origins" results are supposed to be due in the next couple of days. As an Ashkenazi Jew I wonder what will my results be, although, assuming I take my 23andme results into account (95% Ashkenazi on standard) I suppose it'll be 100% Jewish diaspora.

Maleth
05-02-15, 21:18
My FTDNA "My Origins" results are supposed to be due in the next couple of days. As an Ashkenazi Jew I wonder what will my results be, although, assuming I take my 23andme results into account (95% Ashkenazi on standard) I suppose it'll be 100% Jewish diaspora.

Well done! Looking forward for you to share results with us. Things will be much more specific now.

Maleth
05-02-15, 22:15
Oh its working. But percentages are all different :( which one is correct? I have a bit of everyone I think....:confused2: or am I using the wrong programmes? They are too different anyways.

Eurogenes




Population





North_Atlantic

22.64%



Baltic

8.20%



West_Med

22.04%



West_Asian

10.18%



East_Med

26.89%



Red_Sea

4.79%



South_Asian

1.33%



East_Asian

-



Siberian

0.11%



Amerindian

-



Oceanian

0.55%



Northeast_African

2.03%



Sub-Saharan

1.24%





Dodecad




Population





East_European

6.17%



West_European

21.54%



Mediterranean

33.60%



Neo_African

0.83%



West_Asian

19.74%



South_Asian

-



Northeast_Asian

-



Southeast_Asian

-



East_African

1.41%



Southwest_Asian

10.56%



Northwest_African

5.69%



Palaeo_African

0.45%





Population


Mediterranean Farmer37.16%
Anatolian Farmer 23.56%
Baltic Hunter Gatherer 20.32%
Middle Eastern Herder 14.55%
East African Pastoralist 3.11%
East Asian Farmer 0.48%
South Asian Hunter Gatherer 0.32%
Oceanian Hunter Gatherer 0.28%
Bantu Farmer 0.20%

John Doe
06-02-15, 07:32
Oh its working. But percentages are all different :( which one is correct? I have a bit of everyone I think....:confused2: or am I using the wrong programmes? They are too different anyways.

Eurogenes




Population



North_Atlantic
22.64%


Baltic
8.20%


West_Med
22.04%


West_Asian
10.18%


East_Med
26.89%


Red_Sea
4.79%


South_Asian
1.33%


East_Asian
-


Siberian
0.11%


Amerindian
-


Oceanian
0.55%


Northeast_African
2.03%


Sub-Saharan
1.24%




Dodecad




Population



East_European
6.17%


West_European
21.54%


Mediterranean
33.60%


Neo_African
0.83%


West_Asian
19.74%


South_Asian
-


Northeast_Asian
-


Southeast_Asian
-


East_African
1.41%


Southwest_Asian
10.56%


Northwest_African
5.69%


Palaeo_African
0.45%




Population


Mediterranean Farmer37.16%
Anatolian Farmer 23.56%
Baltic Hunter Gatherer 20.32%
Middle Eastern Herder 14.55%
East African Pastoralist 3.11%
East Asian Farmer 0.48%
South Asian Hunter Gatherer 0.32%
Oceanian Hunter Gatherer 0.28%
Bantu Farmer 0.20%

Here are mine:







Population



Anatolian Farmer
28.09%


Baltic Hunter Gatherer
17.52%


Middle Eastern Herder
16.68%


East Asian Farmer
0.34%


South American Hunter Gatherer
-


South Asian Hunter Gatherer
-


North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer
-


East African Pastoralist
0.36%


Oceanian Hunter Gatherer
0.23%


Mediterranean Farmer
35.72%


Pygmy Hunter Gatherer
-


Bantu Farmer
1.07%








Population



North_Atlantic
21.11%


Baltic
5.45%


West_Med
19.23%


West_Asian
13.53%


East_Med
33.95%


Red_Sea
4.46%


South_Asian
-


East_Asian
0.86%


Siberian
-


Amerindian
-


Oceanian
0.33%


Northeast_African
0.86%


Sub-Saharan
0.22%

















Population



East_European
4.97%


West_European
19.50%


Mediterranean
34.64%


Neo_African
0.90%


West_Asian
24.62%


South_Asian
-


Northeast_Asian
-


Southeast_Asian
0.89%


East_African
0.45%


Southwest_Asian
11.60%


Northwest_African
2.33%


Palaeo_African
0.09%

Maleth
06-02-15, 16:21
Here are mine:







Population



Anatolian Farmer
28.09%


Baltic Hunter Gatherer
17.52%


Middle Eastern Herder
16.68%


East Asian Farmer
0.34%


South American Hunter Gatherer
-


South Asian Hunter Gatherer
-


North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer
-


East African Pastoralist
0.36%


Oceanian Hunter Gatherer
0.23%


Mediterranean Farmer
35.72%


Pygmy Hunter Gatherer
-


Bantu Farmer
1.07%








Population



North_Atlantic
21.11%


Baltic
5.45%


West_Med
19.23%


West_Asian
13.53%


East_Med
33.95%


Red_Sea
4.46%


South_Asian
-


East_Asian
0.86%


Siberian
-


Amerindian
-


Oceanian
0.33%


Northeast_African
0.86%


Sub-Saharan
0.22%
















Population



East_European
4.97%


West_European
19.50%


Mediterranean
34.64%


Neo_African
0.90%


West_Asian
24.62%


South_Asian
-


Northeast_Asian
-


Southeast_Asian
0.89%


East_African
0.45%


Southwest_Asian
11.60%


Northwest_African
2.33%


Palaeo_African
0.09%







the population percentages are so similar John. And you have Oceanic too...haha, I wonder were that came from. I even read its Papua New Gunea (!)....I wonder how that came to the equation and we both have it. Also the Bantu one.

The fact that these calculator inventors cannot even agree on what the regions cover and what populations they base their results on, and the terminologies they decide to give. Example what is East Med? Why is Georgia and Azerbaijan considered Middle east? What is North Altantic? Isnt that an Ocean? and so on and so forth. It makes the whole process less appealing, and put it down to a little fun.

The breakdowns I got from Ftdna are different from Eurogenes and different to dodecad. There is something that does not tally ..............:confused2:

John Doe
06-02-15, 16:34
the population percentages are so similar John. And you have Oceanic too...haha, I wonder were that came from.

Well I can't be certain, but I suppose Ashkenazim and Maltese might have a similar genetic history. Both are on the edge of Europe, in the gap between the former and the Near East, might just mean many things. As for the Oceanic admixture, well it might just be noise.

Maleth
06-02-15, 17:39
Well I can't be certain, but I suppose Ashkenazim and Maltese might have a similar genetic history. Both are on the edge of Europe, in the gap between the former and the Near East, might just mean many things. As for the Oceanic admixture, well it might just be noise.

Yes I followed those charts. Three groups seem to be closely connected that is Ashkenazi, Sicilian and Maltese. Did you run this John?



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
6.67


2
Tuscan
7.85


3
AJ
8.94


4
GR
10.4


5
North_Italian
11.82


6
PT
17.17


7
RO
18.45


8
ES
19.07


9
Serbian
20.1


10
FR
22.53


11
AT
24.42


12
TR
25.04


13
HU
25.45


14
Moroccan
27.33


15
IQ
28.2


16
West_&_Central_German
28.33


17
Samaritan
28.88


18
Algerian
28.94


19
Assyrian
29


20
NL
29.47



Mixed Mode Population Sharing:



#

Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance


1

73.2%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
26.8%
PT
@
2.44


2

75.4%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
24.6%
ES
@
2.57


3

71.6%
North_Italian
+
28.4%
Samaritan
@
3.16


4

84.7%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
15.3%
French_Basque
@
3.25


5

64.1%
PT
+
35.9%
Druze
@
3.29


6

79.4%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
20.6%
FR
@
3.33


7

61.6%
ES
+
38.4%
Druze
@
3.48


8

66.5%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
33.5%
North_Italian
@
3.51


9

84.4%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
15.6%
Cornish
@
3.78


10

80.7%
Tuscan
+
19.3%
Samaritan
@
3.84


11

86%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
14%
Scottish
@
3.95


12

87.8%
Tuscan
+
12.2%
Bedouin
@
3.95


13

63.5%
GR
+
36.5%
PT
@
3.97


14

85.7%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
14.3%
Orcadian
@
4.03


15

54.2%
Tuscan
+
45.8%
AJ
@
4.05


16

85%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
15%
English
@
4.05


17

85.9%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
14.1%
IE
@
4.05


18

80.6%
Tuscan
+
19.4%
IQ
@
4.07


19

73%
North_Italian
+
27%
Druze
@
4.09


20

56%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
44%
Tuscan
@
4.12





Do you have an idea what the percentages are and what the distance stand for (excuse my ignorance)

Angela
06-02-15, 19:28
Yes I followed those charts. Three groups seem to be closely connected that is Ashkenazi, Sicilian and Maltese. Did you run this John?



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
6.67


2
Tuscan
7.85


3
AJ
8.94


4
GR
10.4


5
North_Italian
11.82


6
PT
17.17


7
RO
18.45


8
ES
19.07


9
Serbian
20.1


10
FR
22.53


11
AT
24.42


12
TR
25.04


13
HU
25.45


14
Moroccan
27.33


15
IQ
28.2


16
West_&_Central_German
28.33


17
Samaritan
28.88


18
Algerian
28.94


19
Assyrian
29


20
NL
29.47



Mixed Mode Population Sharing:



#

Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance


1

73.2%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
26.8%
PT
@
2.44


2

75.4%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
24.6%
ES
@
2.57


3

71.6%
North_Italian
+
28.4%
Samaritan
@
3.16


4

84.7%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
15.3%
French_Basque
@
3.25


5

64.1%
PT
+
35.9%
Druze
@
3.29


6

79.4%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
20.6%
FR
@
3.33


7

61.6%
ES
+
38.4%
Druze
@
3.48


8

66.5%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
33.5%
North_Italian
@
3.51


9

84.4%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
15.6%
Cornish
@
3.78


10

80.7%
Tuscan
+
19.3%
Samaritan
@
3.84


11

86%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
14%
Scottish
@
3.95


12

87.8%
Tuscan
+
12.2%
Bedouin
@
3.95


13

63.5%
GR
+
36.5%
PT
@
3.97


14

85.7%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
14.3%
Orcadian
@
4.03


15

54.2%
Tuscan
+
45.8%
AJ
@
4.05


16

85%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
15%
English
@
4.05


17

85.9%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
14.1%
IE
@
4.05


18

80.6%
Tuscan
+
19.4%
IQ
@
4.07


19

73%
North_Italian
+
27%
Druze
@
4.09


20

56%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
44%
Tuscan
@
4.12




Do you have an idea what the percentages are and what the distance stand for (excuse my ignorance)

The lower the number, the closer the genetic similarity. A number of 6.67 is not particularly close; I've seen northern Europeans get numbers under 1, but they seem to be more homogenous. In your case, given the demographic history of Malta, it's not surprising that south Italians/Sicilians are your best match. In the case of Malta, you also have to factor in that there were other than Sicilian inputs, and, in your particular case, you have a recent northern European ancestor as well. I think the Portuguese/South Italian Sicilian coming in as the closest combo in Oracle is interesting. It may be because the Portuguese have some North African ancestry which is a match for what showed up for you in FTDNA? What it doesn't mean, of course, is that you have a Portuguese ancestor.

Are these numbers from Dodecad 12b? I have found both through my own experience and that of other southern Europeans that Dodecad provides more accurate results, leading to closer genetic similarity numbers. Just run all of the calculators and see how they compare.

Maleth
06-02-15, 20:03
The lower the number, the closer the genetic similarity. A number of 6.67 is not particularly close; I've seen northern Europeans get numbers under 1, but they seem to be more homogenous. In your case, given the demographic history of Malta, it's not surprising that south Italians/Sicilians are your best match. In the case of Malta, you also have to factor in that there were other than Sicilian inputs, and, in your particular case, you have a recent northern European ancestor as well. I think the Portuguese/South Italian Sicilian coming in as the closest combo in Oracle is interesting. It may be because the Portuguese have some North African ancestry which is a match for what showed up for you in FTDNA? What it doesn't mean, of course, is that you have a Portuguese ancestor.

Are these numbers from Dodecad 12b? I have found both through my own experience and that of other southern Europeans that Dodecad provides more accurate results, leading to closer genetic similarity numbers. Just run all of the calculators and see how they compare.

Many thanks (as usual) for your clear explanations Angela.

This is the Dodecad run on 12b

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
Atlantic_Med
28.76


2
Caucasus
28.66


3
North_European
16.86


4
Southwest_Asian
10.52


5
Northwest_African
7.06


6
Gedrosia
5.85


7
East_African
1.10




Finished reading population data. 223 populations found.
12 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 C_Italian @ 8.820288
2 O_Italian @ 9.579761
3 Sicilian @ 10.060098
4 S_Italian_Sicilian @ 10.656211
5 Greek @ 11.766392
6 Ashkenazi @ 12.190835
7 Tuscan @ 12.372108
8 TSI30 @ 12.584416
9 Ashkenazy_Jews @ 12.594862
10 Morocco_Jews @ 15.396591
11 Sephardic_Jews @ 15.583058
12 N_Italian @ 17.280655
13 North_Italian @ 18.959211
14 Bulgarian @ 20.440601
15 Bulgarians @ 20.870832
16 Romanians @ 21.571959
17 Canarias @ 26.468821
18 Baleares @ 26.780981
19 Cypriots @ 26.962145
20 Turkish @ 27.140495

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Morocco_Jews +50% O_Italian @ 5.587129


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Morocco_Jews +25% N_Italian +25% Romanians @ 3.070553


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Ashkenazy_Jews + Mixed_Germanic + Morocco_Jews + Morocco_Jews @ 2.083963
2 German + Morocco_Jews + Morocco_Jews + Sicilian @ 2.104380
3 Canarias + Druze + Hungarians + Morocco_Jews @ 2.111102
4 Ashkenazy_Jews + Dutch + Morocco_Jews + Morocco_Jews @ 2.223024
5 Canarias + Lebanese + Romanians + Sicilian @ 2.322811
6 Ashkenazi + Mixed_Germanic + Morocco_Jews + Morocco_Jews @ 2.327231
7 Ashkenazy_Jews + German + Morocco_Jews + Morocco_Jews @ 2.414094
8 German + Morocco_Jews + Morocco_Jews + S_Italian_Sicilian @ 2.430136
9 Bulgarian + Canarias + Lebanese + Sicilian @ 2.486896
10 Ashkenazi + Dutch + Morocco_Jews + Morocco_Jews @ 2.488361
11 Ashkenazi + German + Morocco_Jews + Morocco_Jews @ 2.521348
12 Bulgarians + Canarias + Lebanese + Sicilian @ 2.540962
13 Ashkenazy_Jews + CEU30 + Morocco_Jews + Morocco_Jews @ 2.577677
14 Ashkenazy_Jews + Mixed_Germanic + Morocco_Jews + Sephardic_Jews @ 2.614861
15 Ashkenazy_Jews + Dutch + Morocco_Jews + Sephardic_Jews @ 2.616382
16 Canarias + Druze + Hungarians + Sephardic_Jews @ 2.639705
17 Ashkenazy_Jews + English + Morocco_Jews + Morocco_Jews @ 2.648830
18 Ashkenazi + Mixed_Germanic + Morocco_Jews + Sephardic_Jews @ 2.661152
19 Ashkenazy_Jews + Kent + Morocco_Jews + Morocco_Jews @ 2.677732
20 Canarias + Lebanese + Romanians + S_Italian_Sicilian @ 2.689441

It gets a little complex as it goes in 4 population mixes. Lots of Morroco Jews and Ashkenazy there (!). I just read their history and some of them were expelled from Spain to Morroco. There is a history in Malta that local Jews converted to Catholicism to avoid persecution in 1200's, so it can make some historical sense. On the other hand its not easy to interpret that with the first chart of population percentages (hmm bit complicated)

Angela
06-02-15, 20:36
Many thanks (as usual) for your clear explanations Angela.

This is the Dodecad run on 12b

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
Atlantic_Med
28.76


2
Caucasus
28.66


3
North_European
16.86


4
Southwest_Asian
10.52


5
Northwest_African
7.06


6
Gedrosia
5.85


7
East_African
1.10




Finished reading population data. 223 populations found.
12 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 C_Italian @ 8.820288
2 O_Italian @ 9.579761
3 Sicilian @ 10.060098
4 S_Italian_Sicilian @ 10.656211
5 Greek @ 11.766392
6 Ashkenazi @ 12.190835
7 Tuscan @ 12.372108
8 TSI30 @ 12.584416
9 Ashkenazy_Jews @ 12.594862
10 Morocco_Jews @ 15.396591
11 Sephardic_Jews @ 15.583058
12 N_Italian @ 17.280655
13 North_Italian @ 18.959211
14 Bulgarian @ 20.440601
15 Bulgarians @ 20.870832
16 Romanians @ 21.571959
17 Canarias @ 26.468821
18 Baleares @ 26.780981
19 Cypriots @ 26.962145
20 Turkish @ 27.140495

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Morocco_Jews +50% O_Italian @ 5.587129


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Morocco_Jews +25% N_Italian +25% Romanians @ 3.070553


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Ashkenazy_Jews + Mixed_Germanic + Morocco_Jews + Morocco_Jews @ 2.083963
2 German + Morocco_Jews + Morocco_Jews + Sicilian @ 2.104380
3 Canarias + Druze + Hungarians + Morocco_Jews @ 2.111102
4 Ashkenazy_Jews + Dutch + Morocco_Jews + Morocco_Jews @ 2.223024
5 Canarias + Lebanese + Romanians + Sicilian @ 2.322811
6 Ashkenazi + Mixed_Germanic + Morocco_Jews + Morocco_Jews @ 2.327231
7 Ashkenazy_Jews + German + Morocco_Jews + Morocco_Jews @ 2.414094
8 German + Morocco_Jews + Morocco_Jews + S_Italian_Sicilian @ 2.430136
9 Bulgarian + Canarias + Lebanese + Sicilian @ 2.486896
10 Ashkenazi + Dutch + Morocco_Jews + Morocco_Jews @ 2.488361
11 Ashkenazi + German + Morocco_Jews + Morocco_Jews @ 2.521348
12 Bulgarians + Canarias + Lebanese + Sicilian @ 2.540962
13 Ashkenazy_Jews + CEU30 + Morocco_Jews + Morocco_Jews @ 2.577677
14 Ashkenazy_Jews + Mixed_Germanic + Morocco_Jews + Sephardic_Jews @ 2.614861
15 Ashkenazy_Jews + Dutch + Morocco_Jews + Sephardic_Jews @ 2.616382
16 Canarias + Druze + Hungarians + Sephardic_Jews @ 2.639705
17 Ashkenazy_Jews + English + Morocco_Jews + Morocco_Jews @ 2.648830
18 Ashkenazi + Mixed_Germanic + Morocco_Jews + Sephardic_Jews @ 2.661152
19 Ashkenazy_Jews + Kent + Morocco_Jews + Morocco_Jews @ 2.677732
20 Canarias + Lebanese + Romanians + S_Italian_Sicilian @ 2.689441

It gets a little complex as it goes in 4 population mixes. Lots of Morroco Jews and Ashkenazy there (!). I just read their history and some of them were expelled from Spain to Morroco. There is a history in Malta that local Jews converted to Catholicism to avoid persecution in 1200's, so it can make some historical sense. On the other hand its not easy to interpret that with the first chart of population percentages (hmm bit complicated)


What run provided the 6.67 number? Was that also a Dodecad run?

Interpreting Admixture results is more of an art than a science, I'm afraid, which is why they shouldn't be taken as gospel, and also why people get so confused. A "Moroccan Jew" in Oracle doesn't mean that you necessarily have Sephardic Jews of the North African variety in your actual tree, although it could. What it can also mean, and usually does mean is that you carry a combination of "Mediterranean" genes with some northern European input and also some North African Berber. (North African Jews are very highly inbred in the last millennia or so, as are all Jewish populations, but their genesis is in coastal Mediterranean Jewish populations with some Berber admixture and perhaps some Iberian input from their sojourn there.)

The fact that OT and Central Italian show up so high in the list, before Sicilians, actually makes sense to me given that you have a British great grandfather. The algorithm is finding a southern European population that has more northern European in it than the Sicilians, and then finding the North African in the Moroccan Jews.

The Ashkenazi result is also not surprising. A lot of southern Italians get Ashkenazim somewhere in their top five results. It's the second result for a man whose account I manage, yet he has almost no Ashkenazim in relative finder, which means no IBD sharing within hundreds and hundreds of years. I also have done extensive research into the Jewish communities of southern Italy and Sicily, and although there are certainly records of Jews remaining behind after the takeover of the south by the Spaniards and the subsequent expulsion (people converted in order to remain, as they did in Iberia) the numbers in comparison to the total population were extremely small, with most of the Jews going into exile. The similarity largely results, I think, from descent from similar groups, or perhaps from the fact that a good part of the Ashkenazi ethnogenesis may have involved intermarriage with the Sea Peoples, and then with Greek converts during the Hellenistic Era. The proscriptions against proselytizing and intermarriage with women of other religions, for example, didn't arise until quite a bit later. We won't know for sure until we have some genomes from pre-diaspora Jews.

Maleth
06-02-15, 20:58
What run provided the 6.67 number? Was that also a Dodecad run?

Interpreting Admixture results is more of an art than a science, I'm afraid, which is why they shouldn't be taken as gospel, and also why people get so confused. A "Moroccan Jew" in Oracle doesn't mean that you necessarily have Sephardic Jews of the North African variety in your actual tree, although it could. What it can also mean, and usually does mean is that you carry a combination of "Mediterranean" genes with some northern European input and also some North African Berber. (North African Jews are very highly inbred in the last millennia or so, as are all Jewish populations, but their genesis is in coastal Mediterranean Jewish populations with some Berber admixture and perhaps some Iberian input from their sojourn there.)

The fact that OT and Central Italian show up so high in the list, before Sicilians, actually makes sense to me given that you have a British great grandfather. The algorithm is finding a southern European population that has more northern European in it than the Sicilians, and then finding the North African in the Moroccan Jews.

The Ashkenazi result is also not surprising. A lot of southern Italians get Ashkenazim somewhere in their top five results. It's the second result for a man whose account I manage, yet he has almost no Ashkenazim in relative finder, which means no IBD sharing within hundreds and hundreds of years. I also have done extensive research into the Jewish communities of southern Italy and Sicily, and although there are certainly records of Jews remaining behind after the takeover of the south by the Spaniards and the subsequent expulsion (people converted in order to remain, as they did in Iberia) the numbers in comparison to the total population were extremely small, with most of the Jews going into exile. The similarity largely results, I think, from descent from similar groups, or perhaps from the fact that a good part of the Ashkenazi ethnogenesis may have involved intermarriage with the Sea Peoples, and then with Greek converts during the Hellenistic Era. The proscriptions against proselytizing and intermarriage with women of other religions, for example, didn't arise until quite a bit later. We won't know for sure until we have some genomes from pre-diaspora Jews.

you surely make things much more understandable (clear). Thank you again!. I tend to click runs at random and forgot what I have clicked, but finally managed to find the 6.67 number run. its Eurogenes EU test.

John Doe
06-02-15, 22:05
Yes I followed those charts. Three groups seem to be closely connected that is Ashkenazi, Sicilian and Maltese. Did you run this John?



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
6.67


2
Tuscan
7.85


3
AJ
8.94


4
GR
10.4


5
North_Italian
11.82


6
PT
17.17


7
RO
18.45


8
ES
19.07


9
Serbian
20.1


10
FR
22.53


11
AT
24.42


12
TR
25.04


13
HU
25.45


14
Moroccan
27.33


15
IQ
28.2


16
West_&_Central_German
28.33


17
Samaritan
28.88


18
Algerian
28.94


19
Assyrian
29


20
NL
29.47



Mixed Mode Population Sharing:



#

Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance


1

73.2%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
26.8%
PT
@
2.44


2

75.4%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
24.6%
ES
@
2.57


3

71.6%
North_Italian
+
28.4%
Samaritan
@
3.16


4

84.7%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
15.3%
French_Basque
@
3.25


5

64.1%
PT
+
35.9%
Druze
@
3.29


6

79.4%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
20.6%
FR
@
3.33


7

61.6%
ES
+
38.4%
Druze
@
3.48


8

66.5%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
33.5%
North_Italian
@
3.51


9

84.4%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
15.6%
Cornish
@
3.78


10

80.7%
Tuscan
+
19.3%
Samaritan
@
3.84


11

86%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
14%
Scottish
@
3.95


12

87.8%
Tuscan
+
12.2%
Bedouin
@
3.95


13

63.5%
GR
+
36.5%
PT
@
3.97


14

85.7%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
14.3%
Orcadian
@
4.03


15

54.2%
Tuscan
+
45.8%
AJ
@
4.05


16

85%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
15%
English
@
4.05


17

85.9%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
14.1%
IE
@
4.05


18

80.6%
Tuscan
+
19.4%
IQ
@
4.07


19

73%
North_Italian
+
27%
Druze
@
4.09


20

56%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
44%
Tuscan
@
4.12




Do you have an idea what the percentages are and what the distance stand for (excuse my ignorance)

Here are my results from Dodecad 12:

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
Caucasus
35.85


2
Atlantic_Med
28.29


3
North_European
13.68


4
Southwest_Asian
12.62


5
Gedrosia
4.92


6
Northwest_African
2.89




Finished reading population data. 223 populations found.
12 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 S_Italian_Sicilian @ 2.946136
2 Sicilian @ 3.145499
3 Ashkenazi @ 5.229614
4 Ashkenazy_Jews @ 5.473091
5 Greek @ 7.764585
6 C_Italian @ 9.230050
7 Sephardic_Jews @ 9.567550
8 Morocco_Jews @ 12.536876
9 O_Italian @ 13.260434
10 Tuscan @ 13.599797
11 TSI30 @ 15.076990
12 Cypriots @ 18.848753
13 Turkish @ 21.478111
14 N_Italian @ 22.167940
15 North_Italian @ 23.180607
16 Bulgarian @ 23.424467
17 Bulgarians @ 23.600304
18 Lebanese @ 23.718493
19 Turks @ 24.328362
20 Romanians @ 25.058332

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Greek +50% Sephardic_Jews @ 2.595415


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Greek +25% Morocco_Jews +25% S_Italian_Sicilian @ 1.375685


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Greek + O_Italian + Sephardic_Jews + Sephardic_Jews @ 1.237713
2 Ashkenazi + C_Italian + Druze + N_Italian @ 1.244316
3 Ashkenazy_Jews + C_Italian + Druze + N_Italian @ 1.358636
4 Cypriots + O_Italian + O_Italian + Sephardic_Jews @ 1.369294
5 Greek + Greek + Morocco_Jews + S_Italian_Sicilian @ 1.375685
6 Cypriots + Greek + Morocco_Jews + N_Italian @ 1.465503
7 Ashkenazy_Jews + O_Italian + S_Italian_Sicilian + Sephardic_Jews @ 1.490708
8 Ashkenazi + Druze + O_Italian + TSI30 @ 1.521947
9 Ashkenazy_Jews + C_Italian + Druze + North_Italian @ 1.540110
10 Ashkenazy_Jews + Baleares + Druze + Greek @ 1.565091
11 Ashkenazi + C_Italian + Druze + North_Italian @ 1.583420
12 Druze + Greek + North_Italian + Sicilian @ 1.590638
13 Ashkenazi + O_Italian + S_Italian_Sicilian + Sephardic_Jews @ 1.609313
14 Ashkenazi + Lebanese + Tuscan + Tuscan @ 1.610995
15 Greek + Greek + Morocco_Jews + Sicilian @ 1.649405
16 Cypriots + Cypriots + Greek + Portuguese @ 1.653350
17 Ashkenazi + Druze + TSI30 + TSI30 @ 1.653423
18 Cypriots + Morocco_Jews + O_Italian + O_Italian @ 1.676344
19 Ashkenazy_Jews + O_Italian + Sephardic_Jews + Sicilian @ 1.681193
20 Ashkenazi + C_Italian + Lebanese + Tuscan @ 1.685583

Maleth
07-02-15, 10:07
Here are my results from Dodecad 12:

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
Caucasus
35.85


2
Atlantic_Med
28.29


3
North_European
13.68


4
Southwest_Asian
12.62


5
Gedrosia
4.92


6
Northwest_African
2.89




Finished reading population data. 223 populations found.
12 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 S_Italian_Sicilian @ 2.946136
2 Sicilian @ 3.145499
3 Ashkenazi @ 5.229614
4 Ashkenazy_Jews @ 5.473091
5 Greek @ 7.764585
6 C_Italian @ 9.230050
7 Sephardic_Jews @ 9.567550
8 Morocco_Jews @ 12.536876
9 O_Italian @ 13.260434
10 Tuscan @ 13.599797
11 TSI30 @ 15.076990
12 Cypriots @ 18.848753
13 Turkish @ 21.478111
14 N_Italian @ 22.167940
15 North_Italian @ 23.180607
16 Bulgarian @ 23.424467
17 Bulgarians @ 23.600304
18 Lebanese @ 23.718493
19 Turks @ 24.328362
20 Romanians @ 25.058332

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Greek +50% Sephardic_Jews @ 2.595415


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Greek +25% Morocco_Jews +25% S_Italian_Sicilian @ 1.375685


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Greek + O_Italian + Sephardic_Jews + Sephardic_Jews @ 1.237713
2 Ashkenazi + C_Italian + Druze + N_Italian @ 1.244316
3 Ashkenazy_Jews + C_Italian + Druze + N_Italian @ 1.358636
4 Cypriots + O_Italian + O_Italian + Sephardic_Jews @ 1.369294
5 Greek + Greek + Morocco_Jews + S_Italian_Sicilian @ 1.375685
6 Cypriots + Greek + Morocco_Jews + N_Italian @ 1.465503
7 Ashkenazy_Jews + O_Italian + S_Italian_Sicilian + Sephardic_Jews @ 1.490708
8 Ashkenazi + Druze + O_Italian + TSI30 @ 1.521947
9 Ashkenazy_Jews + C_Italian + Druze + North_Italian @ 1.540110
10 Ashkenazy_Jews + Baleares + Druze + Greek @ 1.565091
11 Ashkenazi + C_Italian + Druze + North_Italian @ 1.583420
12 Druze + Greek + North_Italian + Sicilian @ 1.590638
13 Ashkenazi + O_Italian + S_Italian_Sicilian + Sephardic_Jews @ 1.609313
14 Ashkenazi + Lebanese + Tuscan + Tuscan @ 1.610995
15 Greek + Greek + Morocco_Jews + Sicilian @ 1.649405
16 Cypriots + Cypriots + Greek + Portuguese @ 1.653350
17 Ashkenazi + Druze + TSI30 + TSI30 @ 1.653423
18 Cypriots + Morocco_Jews + O_Italian + O_Italian @ 1.676344
19 Ashkenazy_Jews + O_Italian + Sephardic_Jews + Sicilian @ 1.681193
20 Ashkenazi + C_Italian + Lebanese + Tuscan @ 1.685583


Very interesting :). You seem to have much less Jewish references (21 compared to my 37) in the 4 population mix and I presume both your parents are of Jewish origins. However as Angela mentioned that could be maybe a reference to a Berber percentage. However Morocco Jews are singled out probably for a different genetic mix compared to the general Berber population. There is North West Africa also specifically mentioned in population percentages which could also be a more direct reference to a Berber mix. You also have Sephardic references. We have no known Jewish ancestry at least since 1200's. The population percentages again are more or less similar give and take a few percentages, and interestingly we both have Gedrosia (I think its an area outside north west of India, maybe Pakistan?) that eliminates Oceania (Papa New gunea) from another test run. Oh people did move around in the olden days didn't they? :grin:. My final argument is with the amount of Morrocon Jews thrown in my 4 population mix equation, I should be 50% north west African and not just 7.06% as the population percentage chart shows. I will make a few more runs later on the day to see what the oracles are saying. We both have 1 something percent missing.....probably its neandertal :)

John Doe
07-02-15, 15:19
Very interesting :). You seem to have much less Jewish references (21 compared to my 37) in the 4 population mix and I presume both your parents are of Jewish origins.
My mum is an Ashkenazi Jew with ancestry going to Poland, while my father (whom I never knew) was also an Ashkenazi Jew with ancestry going to Germany and Poland. However, my father was much fairer than my mum, don't know if that means much though.

Angela
07-02-15, 15:22
@Maleth,

Very interesting :). You seem to have much less Jewish references (21 compared to my 37) in the 4 population mix and I presume both your parents are of Jewish origins. However as Angela mentioned that could be maybe a reference to a Berber percentage. However Morocco Jews are singled out probably for a different genetic mix compared to the general Berber population. There is North West Africa also specifically mentioned in population percentages which could also be a more direct reference to a Berber mix. You also have Sephardic references. We have no known Jewish ancestry at least since 1200's. The population percentages again are more or less similar give and take a few percentages, and interestingly we both have Gedrosia (I think its an area outside north west of India, maybe Pakistan?) that eliminates Oceania (Papa New gunea) from another test run. Oh people did move around in the olden days didn't they? http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/grin.png. My final argument is with the amount of Morrocon Jews thrown in my 4 population mix equation, I should be 50% north west African and not just 7.06% as the population percentage chart shows. I will make a few more runs later on the day to see what the oracles are saying. We both have 1 something percent missing.....probably its neandertal :)

I hope I didn't mislead you; while there is definitely Berber ancestry present in North African Jews, it is a minor part of their ancestry.
This graphic is still pretty accurate and might help in visualizing the relationships:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TBDgV2r3hxI/AAAAAAAACck/sYi1shNB8bc/s1600/westeurasianpca.jpg

The Jews, as a maritime commercial community like the Phoenicians before them for a rough analogy, had diaspora communities before the destruction of the Temple and their scattering by the Romans, although unlike the Phoenicians they retained their distinctive identity. There were Jews in North Africa and Iberia, for example, long before then, and some degree of admixture took place. (Of course, in the Roman Era refugees would have swelled their ranks.) Some, if not most, of the North African Jews probably then moved into Iberia with the Arab conquest, and with the expulsions, some of them then moved back to North Africa, bearing some Iberian input. This is why they now follow the Sephardic (Spanish) rite in their religious practices. It's a complicated story. What is clear, however, is that modern North African Jews do not have the up to 25% SSA input that is present in many North Africans today. (The North African Jewish communities are also amazingly distinct from one another.)

You may in fact be familiar with some North African Jews without being aware of it.
The philosophers Bernard Henri Levy and Jacques Derrida, for example:
http://www.palestine-solidarite.org/bernard_henri_levy_01.jpg

Jacques Derrida:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LQTvvPZY9f0/UmRXYoDLKwI/AAAAAAAADDM/b1llu4q61Qg/s200/Jacques+Derrida+Philosopher.jpg

Claude Cohen Tannoudji-Nobel prize winning physicist:
http://www.sciencephoto.com/image/224345/350wm/H4030520-Claude_Cohen-Tannoudji,_French_physicist-SPL.jpg

Gregory Fitoussi-actor. He was recently the lead in the series "Selfridges".
http://images.tvrage.com/news/mr-selfridge-s-gregory-fitoussi-to-leave-after-series-finale.jpg

John Doe
07-02-15, 15:26
you surely make things much more understandable (clear). Thank you again!. I tend to click runs at random and forgot what I have clicked, but finally managed to find the 6.67 number run. its Eurogenes EU test.
Here are my results from the Eurogenes EU test:

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
EAST_MED
29.89


2
ATLANTIC
14.88


3
WEST_MED
14.56


4
WEST_ASIAN
12.28


5
MIDDLE_EASTERN
10.43


6
NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO
9.42


7
SOUTH_BALTIC
4.05


8
EAST_EURO
3.27


9
WEST_AFRICAN
0.63


10
EAST_ASIAN
0.35


11
EAST_AFRICAN
0.24



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
4.78


2
AJ
6.1


3
GR
6.75


4
Tuscan
12.45


5
North_Italian
16.65


6
TR
19.63


7
RO
19.72


8
Serbian
21.54


9
PT
22.74


10
Assyrian
23.12


11
IQ
23.51


12
Armenian
23.99


13
ES
24.4


14
Mandean
24.85


15
Samaritan
25.08


16
Kurdish
25.51


17
Druze
25.55


18
IR
25.81


19
FR
26.95


20
AT
27.24



Mixed Mode Population Sharing:



#

Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance


1

94.8%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
5.2%
Udmurt
@
4.11


2

93.7%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
6.3%
Scottish
@
4.12


3

51.4%
Assyrian
+
48.6%
ES
@
4.19


4

93.9%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
6.1%
IE
@
4.19


5

93.9%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
6.1%
Orcadian
@
4.2


6

95.1%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
4.9%
Erzya
@
4.21


7

94.6%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
5.4%
North_Swedish
@
4.24


8

95.1%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
4.9%
South_Finnish
@
4.26


9

95.3%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
4.7%
East_Finnish
@
4.27


10

93.9%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
6.1%
Cornish
@
4.28


11

90.9%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
9.1%
Serbian
@
4.28


12

95.5%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
4.5%
Komi
@
4.29


13

67.5%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
32.5%
AJ
@
4.3


14

94.5%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
5.5%
DK
@
4.3


15

95.5%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
4.5%
North_Russian
@
4.3


16

95.3%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
4.7%
East_Russian
@
4.31


17

93.8%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
6.2%
West_&_Central_German
@
4.32


18

94.8%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
5.2%
NO
@
4.33


19

90.5%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
9.5%
RO
@
4.33


20

95.6%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
4.4%
EE
@
4.33






Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
EAST_MED
29.89


2
ATLANTIC
14.88


3
WEST_MED
14.56


4
WEST_ASIAN
12.28


5
MIDDLE_EASTERN
10.43


6
NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO
9.42


7
SOUTH_BALTIC
4.05


8
EAST_EURO
3.27




Finished reading population data. 78 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 5.323043
2 AJ @ 6.923173
3 GR @ 7.640398
4 Tuscan @ 14.153313
5 North_Italian @ 19.127386
6 TR @ 22.196642
7 RO @ 22.587809
8 Serbian @ 24.797844
9 PT @ 26.361053
10 IQ @ 26.498209
11 Assyrian @ 26.574596
12 Armenian @ 27.604151
13 ES @ 28.267944
14 Mandean @ 28.380276
15 Kurdish @ 28.843000
16 IR @ 28.933260
17 Samaritan @ 28.947187
18 Druze @ 29.932791
19 FR @ 31.357939
20 AT @ 31.518906

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Assyrian +50% ES @ 4.891476


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% AJ +25% Druze +25% French_Basque @ 3.777595


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Assyrian + Druze + ES + ES @ 2.376303
2 Druze + ES + ES + Mandean @ 2.662993
3 Druze + French_Basque + Mandean + North_Italian @ 2.664304
4 AJ + Druze + French_Basque + TR @ 2.701958
5 Assyrian + Druze + ES + PT @ 2.709047
6 Druze + French_Basque + Mandean + Tuscan @ 2.806685
7 Armenian + Druze + ES + ES @ 3.055863
8 Armenian + Druze + ES + PT @ 3.061779
9 Assyrian + Druze + ES + North_Italian @ 3.071738
10 Druze + ES + Mandean + PT @ 3.098068
11 Druze + French_Basque + South_Italian_&_Sicilian + TR @ 3.150371
12 Assyrian + Druze + French_Basque + North_Italian @ 3.157905
13 Assyrian + Druze + French_Basque + Tuscan @ 3.202078
14 Druze + ES + Mandean + North_Italian @ 3.208415
15 Druze + ES + FR + Mandean @ 3.212695
16 Assyrian + Druze + PT + PT @ 3.287118
17 Assyrian + Druze + ES + FR @ 3.294758
18 AJ + Druze + French_Basque + GR @ 3.313377
19 Armenian + Druze + PT + PT @ 3.372040
20 Druze + French_Basque + IQ + Tuscan @ 3.377867

Pretty sure the ES is Extremadura Spanish.

John Doe
07-02-15, 15:27
you surely make things much more understandable (clear). Thank you again!. I tend to click runs at random and forgot what I have clicked, but finally managed to find the 6.67 number run. its Eurogenes EU test.
Here are my results from the Eurogenes EU test:

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
EAST_MED
29.89


2
ATLANTIC
14.88


3
WEST_MED
14.56


4
WEST_ASIAN
12.28


5
MIDDLE_EASTERN
10.43


6
NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO
9.42


7
SOUTH_BALTIC
4.05


8
EAST_EURO
3.27


9
WEST_AFRICAN
0.63


10
EAST_ASIAN
0.35


11
EAST_AFRICAN
0.24



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
4.78


2
AJ
6.1


3
GR
6.75


4
Tuscan
12.45


5
North_Italian
16.65


6
TR
19.63


7
RO
19.72


8
Serbian
21.54


9
PT
22.74


10
Assyrian
23.12


11
IQ
23.51


12
Armenian
23.99


13
ES
24.4


14
Mandean
24.85


15
Samaritan
25.08


16
Kurdish
25.51


17
Druze
25.55


18
IR
25.81


19
FR
26.95


20
AT
27.24



Mixed Mode Population Sharing:



#

Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance


1

94.8%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
5.2%
Udmurt
@
4.11


2

93.7%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
6.3%
Scottish
@
4.12


3

51.4%
Assyrian
+
48.6%
ES
@
4.19


4

93.9%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
6.1%
IE
@
4.19


5

93.9%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
6.1%
Orcadian
@
4.2


6

95.1%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
4.9%
Erzya
@
4.21


7

94.6%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
5.4%
North_Swedish
@
4.24


8

95.1%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
4.9%
South_Finnish
@
4.26


9

95.3%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
4.7%
East_Finnish
@
4.27


10

93.9%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
6.1%
Cornish
@
4.28


11

90.9%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
9.1%
Serbian
@
4.28


12

95.5%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
4.5%
Komi
@
4.29


13

67.5%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
32.5%
AJ
@
4.3


14

94.5%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
5.5%
DK
@
4.3


15

95.5%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
4.5%
North_Russian
@
4.3


16

95.3%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
4.7%
East_Russian
@
4.31


17

93.8%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
6.2%
West_&_Central_German
@
4.32


18

94.8%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
5.2%
NO
@
4.33


19

90.5%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
9.5%
RO
@
4.33


20

95.6%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
4.4%
EE
@
4.33






Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
EAST_MED
29.89


2
ATLANTIC
14.88


3
WEST_MED
14.56


4
WEST_ASIAN
12.28


5
MIDDLE_EASTERN
10.43


6
NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO
9.42


7
SOUTH_BALTIC
4.05


8
EAST_EURO
3.27




Finished reading population data. 78 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 5.323043
2 AJ @ 6.923173
3 GR @ 7.640398
4 Tuscan @ 14.153313
5 North_Italian @ 19.127386
6 TR @ 22.196642
7 RO @ 22.587809
8 Serbian @ 24.797844
9 PT @ 26.361053
10 IQ @ 26.498209
11 Assyrian @ 26.574596
12 Armenian @ 27.604151
13 ES @ 28.267944
14 Mandean @ 28.380276
15 Kurdish @ 28.843000
16 IR @ 28.933260
17 Samaritan @ 28.947187
18 Druze @ 29.932791
19 FR @ 31.357939
20 AT @ 31.518906

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Assyrian +50% ES @ 4.891476


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% AJ +25% Druze +25% French_Basque @ 3.777595


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Assyrian + Druze + ES + ES @ 2.376303
2 Druze + ES + ES + Mandean @ 2.662993
3 Druze + French_Basque + Mandean + North_Italian @ 2.664304
4 AJ + Druze + French_Basque + TR @ 2.701958
5 Assyrian + Druze + ES + PT @ 2.709047
6 Druze + French_Basque + Mandean + Tuscan @ 2.806685
7 Armenian + Druze + ES + ES @ 3.055863
8 Armenian + Druze + ES + PT @ 3.061779
9 Assyrian + Druze + ES + North_Italian @ 3.071738
10 Druze + ES + Mandean + PT @ 3.098068
11 Druze + French_Basque + South_Italian_&_Sicilian + TR @ 3.150371
12 Assyrian + Druze + French_Basque + North_Italian @ 3.157905
13 Assyrian + Druze + French_Basque + Tuscan @ 3.202078
14 Druze + ES + Mandean + North_Italian @ 3.208415
15 Druze + ES + FR + Mandean @ 3.212695
16 Assyrian + Druze + PT + PT @ 3.287118
17 Assyrian + Druze + ES + FR @ 3.294758
18 AJ + Druze + French_Basque + GR @ 3.313377
19 Armenian + Druze + PT + PT @ 3.372040
20 Druze + French_Basque + IQ + Tuscan @ 3.377867

Pretty sure the ES is Extremadura Spanish.

Maleth
07-02-15, 18:13
@Maleth,


I hope I didn't mislead you; while there is definitely Berber ancestry present in North African Jews, it is a minor part of their ancestry.
This graphic is still pretty accurate and might help in visualizing the relationships:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TBDgV2r3hxI/AAAAAAAACck/sYi1shNB8bc/s1600/westeurasianpca.jpg

The Jews, as a maritime commercial community like the Phoenicians before them for a rough analogy, had diaspora communities before the destruction of the Temple and their scattering by the Romans, although unlike the Phoenicians they retained their distinctive identity. There were Jews in North Africa and Iberia, for example, long before then, and some degree of admixture took place. (Of course, in the Roman Era refugees would have swelled their ranks.) Some, if not most, of the North African Jews probably then moved into Iberia with the Arab conquest, and with the expulsions, some of them then moved back to North Africa, bearing some Iberian input. This is why they now follow the Sephardic (Spanish) rite in their religious practices. It's a complicated story. What is clear, however, is that modern North African Jews do not have the up to 25% SSA input that is present in many North Africans today. (The North African Jewish communities are also amazingly distinct from one another.)

You may in fact be familiar with some North African Jews without being aware of it.
The philosophers Bernard Henri Levy and Jacques Derrida, for example:
http://www.palestine-solidarite.org/bernard_henri_levy_01.jpg

Jacques Derrida:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LQTvvPZY9f0/UmRXYoDLKwI/AAAAAAAADDM/b1llu4q61Qg/s200/Jacques+Derrida+Philosopher.jpg

Claude Cohen Tannoudji-Nobel prize winning physicist:
http://www.sciencephoto.com/image/224345/350wm/H4030520-Claude_Cohen-Tannoudji,_French_physicist-SPL.jpg

Gregory Fitoussi-actor. He was recently the lead in the series "Selfridges".
http://images.tvrage.com/news/mr-selfridge-s-gregory-fitoussi-to-leave-after-series-finale.jpg

In fact I just had a read on Haplogroups amoungst North African and Portughese Jews, in both cases E-M81 is quite minimal just as you stated.This is what it says:- quote:- Y-DNA of Jews from North Africa[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genetic_studies_of_Jewish_origins&action=edit&section=5)]

The largest study to date on the Jews of North Africa has been led by Gerard Lucotte et al. in 2003.[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_of_Jewish_origins#cite_note-lucotte2003-37) This study showed that the Jews of North Africa[Note 7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_of_Jewish_origins#cite_note-45) showed frequencies of their paternal haplotypes almost equal to those of the Lebanese and Palestinian non-Jews.
The authors also compared the distribution of haplotypes of Jews from North Africa with Sephardi Jews and Ashkenazi Jews and found a common origin between these groups.[39] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_of_Jewish_origins#cite_note-46) The Jewish community of the island of Djerba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djerba) in Tunisia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunisia) is of special interest, making the tradition back to the time of the destruction of the First Temple. Two studies have attempted to test this hypothesis first by G. Lucotte et al. from 1993,[40] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_of_Jewish_origins#cite_note-Lucotte1996-47) the second of F. Manni et al. of 2005.[41] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_of_Jewish_origins#cite_note-Manni-48) They also conclude that the Jews of Djerba's paternal gene pool is different from the Arabs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab) and Berbers of the island. For the first 77.5% of samples tested are of haplotype VIII (probably similar to the J haplogroup according Lucotte), the second shows that 100% of the samples are of Haplogroup J *. The second suggests that it is unlikely that the majority of this community comes from an ancient colonization of the island while for Lucotte it is unclear whether this high frequency is really an ancient relationship.
These studies therefore suggest that the paternal lineage of North African Jews comes predominantly from the Middle East with a minority contribution of African lineages, probably Berbers-: end quote


Y-DNA of Portuguese Jews[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genetic_studies_of_Jewish_origins&action=edit&section=6)]

A recent study by Inês Nogueiro et al. (July 2009) on the Jews of north-eastern Portugal (region of Trás-os-Montes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tr%C3%A1s-os-Montes_(region))) showed that their paternal lines consisted of 35.2% lineages more typical of Europe (R : 31.7%, I : 3.5%), and 64.8% lineages more typical of the Near East (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_East) than Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe) (E1b1b: 8.7%, G: 3.5%, J: 36.8%, T: 15.8%) and consequently, the Portuguese Jews of this region were genetically closer to other Jewish populations than to Portuguese non-Jews.[42] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_of_Jewish_origins#cite_note-Nogueiro-49)


N
E-M78
E-M81
E-M34
G
I
J1
J2
T
R1a
R1b1b1
R1b1b1b2


57
3.5%
5.2%
0%
3.5%
3.5%
12.3%
24.5%
15.8%
1.8%
1.8%
28.1%



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_of_Jewish_origins#Y-DNA_of_Jews_from_North_Africa

I wasnt aware that the people you mentioned were ancestors of North African Jews. Thanks for info. So J would be the most common haplotype (including J2 I would imagine.) I believe that in antiquity at a particular point in time it would have been correct to term the people of the Asian med Canaanites all the way down from Syria Lebanon and Israel. This is when the long sea ventures were taking place. J2 is also found in significant numbers in South Europe (Balkans and south of Italy, including Malta at 22% J2 / 8% J1). So from what I can gather this makes me curious to know the haplogroup from my Mothers father, I very much believe it might turn to be a J1 or J2. (my next phase of the project to find out:smile:) Unfortunately the name is not in the dna project and I was not successful to have anyone tested. I think my father E-V13 puts me in the South europe / Balkan area. My Grandmother from my father side ydna was G2a (according to the dna project) and Grandmothers father from my mother side was British (presuming to be R1b) I asked my mother if his mum was Jewish and she said she didint think so. (so I dont know where I got that from) Her name was Jane Lane and could not related the surname to Jewish orgins). My great grand mothers father (from my mum side) was I2b (according to the dna project). More difficult to to get Mtdna, and all I know that my mother is H. So there you go that is already quite a mix ...........but one learns something new every day :grin:

Maleth
07-02-15, 18:20
:smile:
Here are my results from the Eurogenes EU test:

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
EAST_MED
29.89


2
ATLANTIC
14.88


3
WEST_MED
14.56


4
WEST_ASIAN
12.28


5
MIDDLE_EASTERN
10.43


6
NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO
9.42


7
SOUTH_BALTIC
4.05


8
EAST_EURO
3.27


9
WEST_AFRICAN
0.63


10
EAST_ASIAN
0.35


11
EAST_AFRICAN
0.24



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
4.78


2
AJ
6.1


3
GR
6.75


4
Tuscan
12.45


5
North_Italian
16.65


6
TR
19.63


7
RO
19.72


8
Serbian
21.54


9
PT
22.74


10
Assyrian
23.12


11
IQ
23.51


12
Armenian
23.99


13
ES
24.4


14
Mandean
24.85


15
Samaritan
25.08


16
Kurdish
25.51


17
Druze
25.55


18
IR
25.81


19
FR
26.95


20
AT
27.24



Mixed Mode Population Sharing:



#

Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance


1

94.8%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
5.2%
Udmurt
@
4.11


2

93.7%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
6.3%
Scottish
@
4.12


3

51.4%
Assyrian
+
48.6%
ES
@
4.19


4

93.9%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
6.1%
IE
@
4.19


5

93.9%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
6.1%
Orcadian
@
4.2


6

95.1%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
4.9%
Erzya
@
4.21


7

94.6%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
5.4%
North_Swedish
@
4.24


8

95.1%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
4.9%
South_Finnish
@
4.26


9

95.3%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
4.7%
East_Finnish
@
4.27


10

93.9%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
6.1%
Cornish
@
4.28


11

90.9%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
9.1%
Serbian
@
4.28


12

95.5%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
4.5%
Komi
@
4.29


13

67.5%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
32.5%
AJ
@
4.3


14

94.5%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
5.5%
DK
@
4.3


15

95.5%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
4.5%
North_Russian
@
4.3


16

95.3%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
4.7%
East_Russian
@
4.31


17

93.8%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
6.2%
West_&_Central_German
@
4.32


18

94.8%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
5.2%
NO
@
4.33


19

90.5%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
9.5%
RO
@
4.33


20

95.6%
South_Italian_&_Sicilian
+
4.4%
EE
@
4.33




Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
EAST_MED
29.89


2
ATLANTIC
14.88


3
WEST_MED
14.56


4
WEST_ASIAN
12.28


5
MIDDLE_EASTERN
10.43


6
NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO
9.42


7
SOUTH_BALTIC
4.05


8
EAST_EURO
3.27




Finished reading population data. 78 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 5.323043
2 AJ @ 6.923173
3 GR @ 7.640398
4 Tuscan @ 14.153313
5 North_Italian @ 19.127386
6 TR @ 22.196642
7 RO @ 22.587809
8 Serbian @ 24.797844
9 PT @ 26.361053
10 IQ @ 26.498209
11 Assyrian @ 26.574596
12 Armenian @ 27.604151
13 ES @ 28.267944
14 Mandean @ 28.380276
15 Kurdish @ 28.843000
16 IR @ 28.933260
17 Samaritan @ 28.947187
18 Druze @ 29.932791
19 FR @ 31.357939
20 AT @ 31.518906

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Assyrian +50% ES @ 4.891476


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% AJ +25% Druze +25% French_Basque @ 3.777595


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Assyrian + Druze + ES + ES @ 2.376303
2 Druze + ES + ES + Mandean @ 2.662993
3 Druze + French_Basque + Mandean + North_Italian @ 2.664304
4 AJ + Druze + French_Basque + TR @ 2.701958
5 Assyrian + Druze + ES + PT @ 2.709047
6 Druze + French_Basque + Mandean + Tuscan @ 2.806685
7 Armenian + Druze + ES + ES @ 3.055863
8 Armenian + Druze + ES + PT @ 3.061779
9 Assyrian + Druze + ES + North_Italian @ 3.071738
10 Druze + ES + Mandean + PT @ 3.098068
11 Druze + French_Basque + South_Italian_&_Sicilian + TR @ 3.150371
12 Assyrian + Druze + French_Basque + North_Italian @ 3.157905
13 Assyrian + Druze + French_Basque + Tuscan @ 3.202078
14 Druze + ES + Mandean + North_Italian @ 3.208415
15 Druze + ES + FR + Mandean @ 3.212695
16 Assyrian + Druze + PT + PT @ 3.287118
17 Assyrian + Druze + ES + FR @ 3.294758
18 AJ + Druze + French_Basque + GR @ 3.313377
19 Armenian + Druze + PT + PT @ 3.372040
20 Druze + French_Basque + IQ + Tuscan @ 3.377867

Pretty sure the ES is Extremadura Spanish.

You are more closely related to Sicilians then I am, so I was correct to classify your photo as south european:smile:. Would you be knowing your ydna deeper subclade from the new results?

John Doe
07-02-15, 18:51
:smile:

You are more closely related to Sicilians then I am, so I was correct to classify your photo as south european:smile:. Would you be knowing your ydna deeper subclade from the new results?
Unfortunately the test with FTDNA that I currently took was a gift from a friend, and the friend gave me the cheapest version which is the autosomal version, however, when I'll have the possibility I'll take the Y test.

Maleth
07-02-15, 19:32
Unfortunately the test with FTDNA that I currently took was a gift from a friend, and the friend gave me the cheapest version which is the autosomal version, however, when I'll have the possibility I'll take the Y test.

It will happen one day. Since you already know you have the basic E-35, I am inclined to believe from your automsmal results you might be E-34 (which is the second most popular haplogroup amoungst Jews) or maybe even V13...never know.

Angela
08-02-15, 00:03
In fact I just had a read on Haplogroups amoungst North African and Portughese Jews, in both cases E-M81 is quite minimal just as you stated.This is what it says:- quote:- Y-DNA of Jews from North Africa[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genetic_studies_of_Jewish_origins&action=edit&section=5)]

The largest study to date on the Jews of North Africa has been led by Gerard Lucotte et al. in 2003.[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_of_Jewish_origins#cite_note-lucotte2003-37) This study showed that the Jews of North Africa[Note 7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_of_Jewish_origins#cite_note-45) showed frequencies of their paternal haplotypes almost equal to those of the Lebanese and Palestinian non-Jews.
The authors also compared the distribution of haplotypes of Jews from North Africa with Sephardi Jews and Ashkenazi Jews and found a common origin between these groups.[39] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_of_Jewish_origins#cite_note-46) The Jewish community of the island of Djerba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djerba) in Tunisia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunisia) is of special interest, making the tradition back to the time of the destruction of the First Temple. Two studies have attempted to test this hypothesis first by G. Lucotte et al. from 1993,[40] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_of_Jewish_origins#cite_note-Lucotte1996-47) the second of F. Manni et al. of 2005.[41] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_of_Jewish_origins#cite_note-Manni-48) They also conclude that the Jews of Djerba's paternal gene pool is different from the Arabs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab) and Berbers of the island. For the first 77.5% of samples tested are of haplotype VIII (probably similar to the J haplogroup according Lucotte), the second shows that 100% of the samples are of Haplogroup J *. The second suggests that it is unlikely that the majority of this community comes from an ancient colonization of the island while for Lucotte it is unclear whether this high frequency is really an ancient relationship.
These studies therefore suggest that the paternal lineage of North African Jews comes predominantly from the Middle East with a minority contribution of African lineages, probably Berbers-: end quote


Y-DNA of Portuguese Jews[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genetic_studies_of_Jewish_origins&action=edit&section=6)]

A recent study by Inês Nogueiro et al. (July 2009) on the Jews of north-eastern Portugal (region of Trás-os-Montes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tr%C3%A1s-os-Montes_(region))) showed that their paternal lines consisted of 35.2% lineages more typical of Europe (R : 31.7%, I : 3.5%), and 64.8% lineages more typical of the Near East (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_East) than Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe) (E1b1b: 8.7%, G: 3.5%, J: 36.8%, T: 15.8%) and consequently, the Portuguese Jews of this region were genetically closer to other Jewish populations than to Portuguese non-Jews.[42] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_of_Jewish_origins#cite_note-Nogueiro-49)


N
E-M78
E-M81
E-M34
G
I
J1
J2
T
R1a
R1b1b1
R1b1b1b2


57
3.5%
5.2%
0%
3.5%
3.5%
12.3%
24.5%
15.8%
1.8%
1.8%
28.1%



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_of_Jewish_origins#Y-DNA_of_Jews_from_North_Africa

I wasnt aware that the people you mentioned were ancestors of North African Jews. Thanks for info. So J would be the most common haplotype (including J2 I would imagine.) I believe that in antiquity at a particular point in time it would have been correct to term the people of the Asian med Canaanites all the way down from Syria Lebanon and Israel. This is when the long sea ventures were taking place. J2 is also found in significant numbers in South Europe (Balkans and south of Italy, including Malta at 22% J2 / 8% J1). So from what I can gather this makes me curious to know the haplogroup from my Mothers father, I very much believe it might turn to be a J1 or J2. (my next phase of the project to find out:smile:) Unfortunately the name is not in the dna project and I was not successful to have anyone tested. I think my father E-V13 puts me in the South europe / Balkan area. My Grandmother from my father side ydna was G2a (according to the dna project) and Grandmothers father from my mother side was British (presuming to be R1b) I asked my mother if his mum was Jewish and she said she didint think so. (so I dont know where I got that from) Her name was Jane Lane and could not related the surname to Jewish orgins). My great grand mothers father (from my mum side) was I2b (according to the dna project). More difficult to to get Mtdna, and all I know that my mother is H. So there you go that is already quite a mix ...........but one learns something new every day :grin:

Believe me, I've seen Moroccans in Italy, and I just saw a big group of them in Orlando, Florida, and there is no way anyone could ever mistake Moroccan Jews for regular Moroccans, with the possible exception of a small group in the Rif, and even they, although lighter, have different facial features.

One other point about why the Ashkenazim show up on Oracle results for the Maltese and the Sicilians. If you look at the Lazaridis et al three population table, you can see that both the Ashkenazim and the Maltese are 93% EEF. Without an IBD analysis, you can see why an algorithm might see them as very similar populations even though their population history and culture are very different. The Sicilians come in at 90% EEF, so it explains to some degree why the same thing sometimes happens to them and other far southern Italians. (I haven't seen a figure for the Cypriots, but I would imagine its about the same, although they might have gotten more ANE.) Most Spaniards don't have much lower scores, coming in at 81%, but I think their North African input causes the algorithm to choose high EEF/high Berber populations for their mix, so they often show North African in dodecad.

7066

Maleth
09-02-15, 20:48
One other point about why the Ashkenazim show up on Oracle results for the Maltese and the Sicilians. If you look at the Lazaridis et al three population table, you can see that both the Ashkenazim and the Maltese are 93% EEF. Without an IBD analysis, you can see why an algorithm might see them as very similar populations even though their population history and culture are very different. The Sicilians come in at 90% EEF, so it explains to some degree why the same thing sometimes happens to them and other far southern Italians. (I haven't seen a figure for the Cypriots, but I would imagine its about the same, although they might have gotten more ANE.)

7066

I agree with you. Its all about percentages that happen to co relate in different geographical areas probably from the same haplotypes from an original source pre creation of monolithic religions. That might change a little once haplotypes will be split further downstream indicating maybe different routes. It also might not be so obvious. Even in regards to the EEF and ANE issues I believe that the sampling is far too tiny and very often based on just one or two samples which cannot be indicitave of large areas all over the EuroAsian continent.

Just a side not on the pigmentation chart, its surprising that Genoa in the north scores less then Rome in the centre.

Angela
09-02-15, 23:39
I agree with you. Its all about percentages that happen to co relate in different geographical areas probably from the same haplotypes from an original source pre creation of monolithic religions. That might change a little once haplotypes will be split further downstream indicating maybe different routes. It also might not be so obvious. Even in regards to the EEF and ANE issues I believe that the sampling is far too tiny and very often based on just one or two samples which cannot be indicitave of large areas all over the EuroAsian continent.

Just a side not on the pigmentation chart, its surprising that Genoa in the north scores less then Rome in the centre.

Sorry...that chart has nothing to do with your thread...my finger must have slipped when I was looking for the Lazaridis one. Yes, that one's an anomaly, although this is only one snp, and pigmentation traits are polygenic, and then I have a feeling some of these studies are done on college students, who can come from anywhere. I do think, though, that coastal western Liguria (and adjacent areas of France) are a little darker than eastern Liguria and even into some areas of Tuscany in my subjective opinion. It might be that eastern Liguria has mixed a lot with the Lunigiana and the Garfagnana, which have a few pockets with pretty "fair" people. Also, when I was investigating this whole issue I took a look at some very detailed maps of the general area in terms of solar reflectance and UV levels. It definitely gets higher levels than surrounding areas, which makes sense...that's why it has a Mediterranean climate and flora and fauna, and inland Liguria, Toscana, Piemonte, do not, and have more of a continental climate. Higher UV levels equals less selection for fair skin. I think that to some extent explains the situation in Spain as well.

Maleth
10-02-15, 08:51
Also, when I was investigating this whole issue I took a look at some very detailed maps of the general area in terms of solar reflectance and UV levels. It definitely gets higher levels than surrounding areas, which makes sense...that's why it has a Mediterranean climate and flora and fauna, and inland Liguria, Toscana, Piemonte, do not, and have more of a continental climate. Higher UV levels equals less selection for fair skin. I think that to some extent explains the situation in Spain as well.

Totally agree, this cannot be more truer then the Sardenian case were I2 is at nearly 40% with J's, E's and T's so low, yet scoring lower Even then Sicily (with much higher J's), even in hair colour terms. If there ever needed any prove of UV natural selection visa vi protection from the environment this is a good one.





Region
I2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_(Y-DNA))
R1a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a_(Y-DNA))
R1b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA))
G2a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G_(Y-DNA))
J2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J2_(Y-DNA))
J1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA))
E1b1b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA))
T (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T_(Y-DNA))


Sardinia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinia)
39.5%
1%
18.5%
12%
9%
4%
9.5%
1.5%

John Doe
10-02-15, 15:46
Just received the the results of the "My origins", 96% Jewish diaspora (Ashkenazi) and 4% European (Scandinavian). I'm not surprised by the Jewish diaspora, but the Scandinavian certainly surprises me. Already on 23andme I received 0.3% Scandinavian on speculative, but I thought it was just noise. On standard however, I had about 4.9% broadly European, I suppose that's where the Scandinavian might be from. 4% I suppose equals roughly to a great great great grandfather. This certainly might be because I can only trace my father's line to his grandparents who came from Germany and Poland, but besides that I know nothing about them, I do know however that my biological father was very fair, while my mother has a Mediterranean complexion.

Hauteville
10-02-15, 16:16
Congrats for the results Maleth, in your Eurogenes results you're basically a Western Sicilian of Eurogenes K13, which is consistent to the history and settlements from Southern Italy to Malta.

Your


Eurogenes




Population



North_Atlantic
22.64%


Baltic
8.20%


West_Med
22.04%


West_Asian
10.18%


East_Med
26.89%


Red_Sea
4.79%


South_Asian
1.33%


East_Asian
-


Siberian
0.11%


Amerindian
-


Oceanian
0.55%


Northeast_African
2.03%


Sub-Saharan
1.24%






West Sicilian

North Atlantic - 21.14
Baltic - 7.59
West Med - 22.70
West Asian - 10.85
East Med - 28.65
Red Sea - 5.07
South Asian - 0.65
East Asian - 0.52
Siberian - 0.20
Amerindian - 0.05
Oceanian - 0.61
North-East African - 0.99
Sub-Saharan African - 0.96

Maleth
12-02-15, 21:33
Just received the the results of the "My origins", 96% Jewish diaspora (Ashkenazi) and 4% European (Scandinavian). I'm not surprised by the Jewish diaspora, but the Scandinavian certainly surprises me. Already on 23andme I received 0.3% Scandinavian on speculative, but I thought it was just noise. On standard however, I had about 4.9% broadly European, I suppose that's where the Scandinavian might be from. 4% I suppose equals roughly to a great great great grandfather. This certainly might be because I can only trace my father's line to his grandparents who came from Germany and Poland, but besides that I know nothing about them, I do know however that my biological father was very fair, while my mother has a Mediterranean complexion.

I think Ashkenazi in general has a European admixture anyway. I dont know the correct percentage but it could be up to 10% if not mistaken.

Maleth
12-02-15, 21:35
Congrats for the results Maleth, in your Eurogenes results you're basically a Western Sicilian of Eurogenes K13, which is consistent to the history and settlements from Southern Italy to Malta.

Your

Thanks Hauteville, it does indeed :smile:

John Doe
13-02-15, 00:24
I think Ashkenazi in general has a European admixture anyway. I dont know the correct percentage but it could be up to 10% if not mistaken.

10% as in WHG?

Maleth
13-02-15, 11:46
10% as in WHG?

that would be y-dna, in fact it seems much higher in autosmal dna, probably mostly through MtDNA

"Another recent study, also based on whole genomes, found that a mixture of European ancestries ranged from 30 percent to 60 percent among Ashkenazi and Sephardi populations, with Northern Italians showing the greatest proximity to Jews of any Europeans."

---------------------------

...... while most individual participants with southern European ancestry (Italians, Greeks, Portuguese, Spaniards) showed >85% in the 'southern' group. Both Ashkenazi Jews as well as Sephardic Jews showed >85% membership in the "southern" group. Referring to the Jews clustering with southern Europeans, the authors state the results were "consistent with a later Mediterranean origin of these ethnic groups".[127] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews#cite_note-127)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews#Genetics

Maleth
30-10-15, 10:06
Results so far from Yseq :)

Positive for 35.1 - Pf 1944 - Z5018 - S2979. Becoming more specific now, more to come.

Maciamo
05-04-17, 22:18
I have moved the post about the new MyOrigins results to a dedicated thread (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33878-Share-your-updated-MyOrigins-results).