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LeBrok
23-01-15, 19:51
By nature of our sense of beauty, the most avarage face, or nose in this case is the most beautiful. Look at this one:

http://www.virtualffs.co.uk/nose%20images/noses-animation.gif

It is not even a real person but an image generated by averaging of many faces. It is not a very characteristic face, face to remember, yet is extremely balanced and beautiful. It is so average that, you would probably swear that you met person like this in your life.
As with everything on this face, the nose is an average European nose. Not too small or big, not going up or down, not curved in any way. Average but beautiful. Nose like this one could be found all over the Europe and won't tell us much about where it comes from.

However, any deviation from this average can do the trick. Some parts of Europe have noses which are bigger, smaller, going up or down, narrow or wide. These characteristics can point us to a specific region or Europe, or ethnicity with very high likelihood.

Helpful diagram.
http://www.harvard-wm.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/nose-anatomy-images.jpg


I'm not a phenotypical specialist by any stretch of imaginations, but I would like to present few of my observations, then discover about your observations, maybe find something new and intriguing.
Keep in mind that below pictures are not representations of general populations, especially if you don't like them, but just examples of characteristic noses that could be found there.

Let's have some fun!

LeBrok
23-01-15, 20:12
Sorry for the title of this post, but I couldn't find examples till I typed this into google search.

This one is common in French or Alpine, and maybe Ashkenazi, (according to me :).
I think Depardieu is an extreme example but very characteristic. Nose is sort of wide at the tip with characteristic groove in the middle.
http://forward.com/workspace/assets/images/articles/DEPARDIEU-2.jpg

Swiss movie director:
http://jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20100706/ent/images/Switzerland_Polanski_LGL102.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v705/yesyadda/m1-8.jpg

http://www.ijreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/BillClinton.jpg

LeBrok
23-01-15, 20:15
I find it mostly in north Europe?


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/df/11/ba/df11ba524d8ca22ced0e8974774549b0.jpg
http://www.e-brainpages.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Snub-Nose-Small-Nose-Waybe-Rooney.jpg
http://www.myclassiclyrics.com/artist_biographies/images/Rupert-Grint-3.jpg

LeBrok
23-01-15, 20:35
NW Europe?
http://creativeroots.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Erika-larsen-Sami-people5.jpg
http://images.planetf1.com/10/02/800x600/Mika-Hakkinen_2421485.jpg

LeBrok
23-01-15, 20:42
Where is it from? North Europe?
http://www.fashionpaths.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/124316684_Duchess_396611c.jpg
http://www.drbrassard.com/assets/images/nose-reshaping.png

LeBrok
23-01-15, 20:52
Where is it most common?
http://www.coastalcosmetic.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/rhino_stock_2.jpg

http://www.orangecountycosmeticsurgery.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/13-slightly-hanging-columella-notching.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Ug1FTYYSsGY/T4N9zmu8_0I/AAAAAAAAAvw/tSd96QlC2NI/s320/Linda+Evangelista.jpg

http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_content_width/hash/5b/c0/5bc0284f19bedd7b7f7da9ddfa840547.jpg?itok=O3sXbqOU

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSp0SaOqfl3NgiR1qAFAO35nAObRNZE_ XMJ8q2gYAzDkACAoSwy

LeBrok
23-01-15, 21:01
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/69247000/jpg/_69247083_einsteingettyafp.jpg

http://www.wallpaperhi.com/thumbnails/detail/20130115/men%20people%20actors%20clive%20owen%20faces%20374 4x2808%20wallpaper_www.wallpaperhi.com_60.jpg



http://passioncine.fr/passioncine/cache/com_zoo/images/Daniel%20Craig_ee4e18dd982ae2dadc6d506f1e9e72a5.jp g

Any ideas where it dominates?

LeBrok
23-01-15, 21:24
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vDKHF8ws0-A/Uhbtf_DbYWI/AAAAAAAAAhQ/cTSN9QXnVEY/s1600/Screen+shot+2013-08-22+at+10.07.28+PM.png

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-TPasMBWCEaU/TfWFZhqAzLI/AAAAAAAAAgk/KpWUwxuayEc/s587/Picture+88.png

http://img2.rnkr-static.com/user_node_img/41/809416/C350/daniel-bernhardt-people-in-tv-photo-u1.jpg

http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/01421/BRITAIN_OBIT_THATC_1421389e.jpg

Angela
23-01-15, 21:31
I don't want to spoil the fun...but:grin:

I really don't think you can very reliably guess ethnicity by nose type. Even when you're looking at the whole package, it can be difficult in some cases. There's a lot of overlap.

Grooved tip-Matteo Renzi-ancestry from Marche and Toscana-:
http://www.daringtodo.com/wp-content/themes/daring3/tf_cache/2013/12/185324-400-629-1-100-RenziMatteo.jpg

His nose is also short and broad, although there's more cartilage than in your English examples.

Short with a wide base-Riccardo Scamarico:
http://www.lospettacolo.it/images/2012/4/4/5164.jpg

Convex nose-Francois Hollande
http://cdn.breitbart.com/mediaserver/Breitbart/Big-Peace/2014/Europe/France/francois-hollande-profile-afp.jpg

Long, narrow, bony nose-Alan Cumming:
http://static.tvgcdn.net/MediaBin/Content/100419/News/Todays_News_Our_Take/2_tues/100420alan-cumming1.jpg

LeBrok
23-01-15, 21:42
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/4e/30/46/4e3046ccc10207feaebf6324cce82ad6.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/08/29/article-2405425-1B80BD77000005DC-489_306x430.jpg

LeBrok
23-01-15, 21:53
I don't want to spoil the fun...but:grin:

I really don't think you can very reliably guess ethnicity by nose type. Even when you're looking at the whole package, it can be difficult in some cases. There's a lot of overlap.

It is almost impossible thing to do, most noses contain many of these characteristics and can be found all over Europe. However, it will be interesting in some of these cases to find regions where they persist the most. I'm hoping that in the future we can figure out from genetic code what came from where. We might pinpoint the shape of IE nose from steppes, or nose (not mentioning other features) of first farmers, etc. Or what characteristics just bloomed from bottlenecking in regions in Europe.

It is mostly for fun here, nothing really scientific, if there is fun in discovering some patterns and listen to people's opinions. I might be perfectly wrong in my perceptions.

LeBrok
23-01-15, 22:02
http://mienshiang.com/wp-content/uploads/sample-chapter/ch-sample_08.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--_cHVhiYSb4/UcB4_YLKH3I/AAAAAAAAOfE/WFLKTsJl2VY/s1600/29628032932920e7c85fce02e1ebb58c.jpg

http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/1/285x214/296800_1.jpg

LeBrok
23-01-15, 22:09
http://www.fr-online.de/image/view/2679022,1261373,highRes,maxh,480,maxw,480,Michel+F riedman+%2528media_914622%2529.jpg

http://images.autosport.com/editorial/1277811047.jpg

http://s17.postimage.org/yy1n8ukdr/492386_daniel_ricciardo.jpg

http://media.meltyfashion.fr/article-2566175-ajust_930-f1420034114/lady-gaga-pour-porter-magazine.jpg

LeBrok
23-01-15, 22:24
How about this flat place on top of nose ridge?
http://www.drhilinski.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/RhinoTutorialDDOblBefore.jpg

Angela
23-01-15, 22:32
Some more examples of the variety in one province of one country: Toscana, Italia

Ed. Now that I think about it, Italy would be the last place to look for clues about origin...too much variety.

http://acertaincinema.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Franco-Zeffirelli-Champ.jpg

http://cdn.blogosfere.it/realityshow/images/benigni-tv%20sorrisi%20e%20canzoni-ottobre%202012.JPG

http://foto.ilsole24ore.com//Editrice/ILSOLE24ORE/ILSOLE24ORE/Online/Notizie/Italia/2014/boschi/img_boschi/01_boschi_352-288.jpg

http://www.sienanews.it/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Enrico-Rossi.jpg

LeBrok
23-01-15, 22:53
Are Serbian and Bosnians with most downward pointing noses?
http://gdb.rferl.org/EDCCF694-BF99-4AF9-AEE5-538CA5CDE3C7_w640_r1_s.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQUVxlcGLPfrCOhpoX_DaHVZv41VLkmD FfgHxh589WAKSxuYg5Bwg





I think this picture represents a very characteristic Serbian/Bosnian nose:
http://c3.thejournal.ie/media/2014/05/netherlands-war-crimes-mladic-14-310x415.jpg
Is it unique enough to possibly represent quick I2-Dinaric expansion in Balkans?

Fire Haired14
23-01-15, 23:01
I find it mostly in north Europe?


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/df/11/ba/df11ba524d8ca22ced0e8974774549b0.jpg
http://www.e-brainpages.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Snub-Nose-Small-Nose-Waybe-Rooney.jpg
http://www.myclassiclyrics.com/artist_biographies/images/Rupert-Grint-3.jpg

Interesting, that's what I have. As do, most of the people on my north-central Euro side of the family.

Yetos
23-01-15, 23:14
interesting,

and my favorite question every time with noises, is him


http://www.geocities.ws/jaiminiram/cartoon/asterix/caesar1.JPG
or

http://www.yuribs.com/pics/eurocoins/ITA1_2,00.png


a nose typical from Caucas Georgia to Armenia to Kurds to Levant to Balkans to Italy, and maybe Iberia
but not above the Alps, do not know how common in North Italy

could he be of Caucasian, minor Asian, Persian, etc ancestry?





and what about him?

http://www.celebritiesheight.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Vladimir-Putin.jpg

is this the typical Karelian? or Uralic nose?

is it the same with this one?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-eu9W1KUnDmM/TfRxbsFoaqI/AAAAAAAAAGU/sT0nH3WBOhQ/s1600/adolf-hitler-photo.jpg





btw,
I believe the strongest point of I2b1 is the mandible, very wide



http://www.euroleague.net/rs/26746/a80d1475-f44a-4f94-ba9d-16c1583b9b76/63c/filename/a80.jpg

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=HN.607986693163714790&pid=15.1&H=213&W=160


http://www.b92.net/news/pics/2011/09/1473222334e7aedf510ce2401570010_orig.jpg


zoran Savic and Zarko Paspalje, 2 old but unforgetable basketball players

LeBrok
24-01-15, 00:02
You asked my "expert" opinion, here it goes, lol:


interesting,

and my favorite question every time with noises, is him



or

http://www.yuribs.com/pics/eurocoins/ITA1_2,00.png


a nose typical from Caucas Georgia to Armenia to Kurds to Levant to Balkans to Italy, and maybe Iberia
but not above the Alps, do not know how common in North Italy

could he be of Caucasian, minor Asian, Persian, etc ancestry?
Who knows, don't forget that it might be even a much older nose of first farmers.






and what about him?

is this the typical Karelian? or Uralic nose?

Definitely northern type, the ski jump nose. The tip and nostrils are fairly common to NE Europe.
http://c0.thejournal.ie/media/2010/10/putinouch-390x285.jpg





is it the same with this one?



Hitler's wide base is northern european kind, I guess, but the fairly large nose and its straight profile perhaps more southern/central type.
http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2014/01/11/1226611/613372-adolf-hitler.jpg

LeBrok
24-01-15, 00:45
Usually a ridge of a nose don't line up with forehead, creating bigger or smaller indentation, a meniscus, at the place they join.
http://www.docshop.com/assets/images/rhinoplasty-root.jpg

Some time ago in Greece there were people with a very tall nose bridge, with nose and forehead with almost parallel lines.
http://nationalvanguard.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/File0056334.jpg

http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000bvBTGGchGEE/s/750/750/Venus-de-Milo-5685-XL.jpg?width=350



Can this nose be found in Greece today?

Yetos
24-01-15, 00:54
Usually a ridge of a nose don't line up with forehead, creating bigger or smaller indentation, a meniscus, at the place they join.


Some time ago in Greece there were people with a very tall nose bridge, with nose and forehead with almost parallel lines.


http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000bvBTGGchGEE/s/750/750/Venus-de-Milo-5685-XL.jpg?width=350

Can this nose be found in Greece today?

yes,
my father had such, thin and start from above eyes

but that is the perfect, the godess nose

check this

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_eQCgdVy0pBY/TEeUzvLOuZI/AAAAAAAAEO4/LCurHkrbuLI/s320/Georgios-Samaras_1346317.jpg


http://www.contra.gr/Soccer/Europe/EuropaLeague/article1515510.ece/ALTERNATES/w620/malezas_paok_aerodromio_281111.jpg

LeBrok
24-01-15, 01:12
East Europe Ural area.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/48/181457299_b316b36fc2.jpg

Komi people
http://www.viaggipolari.it/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/52.jpg

Udmart
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3059/3102669288_be075f99b9_z.jpg

Karelian
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7376/12342384035_4b39e474c5_b.jpg

Are Karelian noses pointing down?

Yetos
24-01-15, 01:33
the first photo seems original Turk to me

I got your point,

trouth is I can recogn a possible Armenian from a possible Kurd from a possibleTurk from a possible Georgian,

but not a Northern one, except Norwegians, and not all the time,

i ussually regogn them from the big forehead, brow, face front

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-I-WuRGIA2QA/UQhkqkYfhyI/AAAAAAAAFAs/IGjcGsxIblA/s1600/nightwish.jpg

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/24100000/Tarja-Turunen-tarja-24122891-1024-768.jpg


although i could fall in love with her :heart:, she certainly is not southern than alps or danube

or him

https://jeancolemalmsteen.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/yngwie_malmsteen_by_middeneaht.jpg

Dalmat
24-01-15, 01:42
Croats often have huge beaks, myself included

http://metro-portal.hr/img/repository/2009/06/medium/mavrovic.jpg

http://img.youtube.com/vi/WEBZeGIH3os/0.jpg

http://www.24sata.hr/image/duvnjak-vori-i-cupic-kandidati-za-najboljeg-igraca-na-svijetu-504x335-20130104-20130128232823-5d175ffaacb31fd1131852d1e505fb33.jpg

http://www.index.hr/images2/duvnjakJAk-gertty.jpg
http://dalje.com/slike/slike_3/r1/g2012/m03/y293671765587126.jpg
http://www.sawtcairo.com/wp-content/uploads/44134124.jpg
http://www.sportcom.hr/slike/cache/2870dd1d25dd9d99176872e1fe8873be_L.jpg?t=134522602 4

LeBrok
24-01-15, 04:42
Gravettian from Czech Republic, about 20 thousand years old.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/c7/fa/12/c7fa125320acc1c3268f4aac5ee4f417.jpghttps://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/headbrugar11.jpg

Wide base, fleshy nostrils and extremely pointed upward. It is hard to find a nose like this one today, though some could be found in north Europe.

http://i.imgur.com/kkYWE.jpg




Or actress Carrey Mulligan.
http://i6.cdnds.net/13/40/450x450/carey-mulligan-long-brown-hair.jpghttp://cdn.blogs.sheknows.com/celebsalon.sheknows.com//2010/09/carey-mulligan-hair1.jpg

LeBrok
24-01-15, 05:23
14 type of noses recently identified, by professor Abraham Tamir.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2013699/There-14-types-nose--yours.html

I was unable to find source research paper, can someone help please.

LeBrok
24-01-15, 22:23
Most common nose on this planet. It can be found on every continent and every ethnic group (with only with few exceptions).
It features lower bridge, fleshy tip and flaring nostrils.

http://www.solarnavigator.net/films_movies_actors/actors_films_images/Renee-renee-zellweger-Zellwegger_Bridget_Jones_bridget_jones_diaries.jpg


In Mongolia
http://resource.news.mn/english/photo/2013/2/32f7c54d9a661e8d/282af7dce90bae47big.jpg

In China
https://www.msu.edu/~pengwei/PengWei.jpg

Philippines
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v716/angel_2122/sayaka/sayaka_akimoto.jpg

India
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7018/6605744661_0754f030af_z.jpg

Australia Aborigines. Nose like this is rarity though, most noses are wider and flatter.
http://www.tjapukai.com.au/wp-content/gallery/day/10.jpg

Amazon jungle:
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/Americas/2425955968_372c5cba11_b_0x0_150KB.jpg

Inuits of Northern Arctic
http://ak.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/1411126/preview/stock-footage-alaska-circa-an-inuit-eskimo-face-looks-forward-circa-in-alaska.jpg

Angola
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/d2/af/08/d2af0817ff55e7e4471f0344b77275a1.jpg

Sudan
http://cache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/sudan_06_13/sudan16.jpg

Does this mean that original people out of Africa sported such nose and have spreaded it around the planet?

Angela
25-01-15, 18:20
LeBrok:
Does this mean that original people out of Africa sported such nose and have spreaded it around the planet?

Probably. (The last man has more cartilage in his nose, I think. Is he from eastern Africa? )

I think that nose is most prevalent in Africa, Australia, Oceania, south Asia, and then on to southeastern and Eastern Asia. In Europe, rightly or wrongly I always associate it with the very northern tier and with a declining gradient from east to west. I think I remember that Comb Ceramic people had, according to some old anthropologists, some "Mongoloid" tendencies, if not EDAR type features. (Renee Zellwiger, by the way, is of Finnish, Sami, Norwegian, and Swiss ancestry (the latter being associated with her surname, I would imagine.)

I think it's pretty clear that the "bonier" noses came at least partly from West Asia with the farmers. I think Bedouin are a decent proxy genetically if you remove the SSA. This is the first picture that came up when I googled Bedouin men:

http://40.media.tumblr.com/84d786714dca82c0efcf69a8b857bcad/tumblr_mn29nziE4C1r6x61do1_500.jpg

This is a Bedouin from Jordan:
http://travelwithkat.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/jordan-lebanon-12741-259x300.jpg

This is an older Bedouin woman:
http://8020.photos.jpgmag.com/2711725_172637_f22b53a2a5_p.jpg

Samaritans are also a pretty good proxy, I suppose. Some of them have a different type of nose...bonier and more prominent than what you're talking about, but "fleshier" than the previous ones of the Bedouin.
http://static3.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/600-8/photos/1303134626-samaritans-passover-sacrifice-at-mount-grizim_662418.jpg

Interestingly, the Bronze Age post Corded Ware Warrior also had a prominent nose. I'm not sure where the origin would be...

I thought perhaps from ANE, but the highest ANE is in South American Indians, and their noses are pretty flat, although maybe not usually as flat as many Africans and East Asians.. Then again, the North American Indians have very prominent noses too. The Bronze Age Warrior also might have had some Yamnaya "Armenian like" ancestry via Corded Ware,I guess, but it's not an "Armenian like" nose really. What about WGH like Loschbour? I know the reproduction gave him a prominent nose, but can you really tell that from the skeleton?

Karitiana:
http://www.rondoniaovivo.com/imagensEventos/06082010154905/KARITIANA_01.jpg

Maybe it's just the case that although your series represents the "original" nose, it survives best in certain environments. Different environmental factors might have led to the "bonier" noses we see in West Asia and Europe.

Aberdeen
25-01-15, 21:55
IMO, there's a difference between a prominent nose and a wide nose, although the two can be combined. But I see wide noses as being common in both SSA populations and some East Asian populations, particularly in New Guinea, which has more Denisovian than some other East Asian populations (some of whom have quite small noses). So maybe the wide nose is, by coincidence, common among both SSA populations and people with a fair minority of Denisovian ancestry. So I guess wide noses among South Americans could also be Denisovian. The prominent nose, or "hawk nose", does seem to be a feature of Middle Eastern and some Caucasian types, although I've also seen a variation of it among some Greeks and some Italians, particularly Tuscan (Etruscan?) types.

LeBrok
25-01-15, 22:02
Probably. (The last man has more cartilage in his nose, I think. Is he from eastern Africa? ) I would swear it is she. ;) She's from Sudan, and yes, more cartilage and higher bridge too. It is almost impossible to find smaller nose in East Africa or Near East. The biggest/taller noses are in Near East, Sahara and East Africa, South Europe with emphasis on Balkans, Caucasus, South-West Asia with North India. I might not be far from the truth saying that this is a trait of first Near Eastern Farmers, who as we know, replaced most of local hunter-gatherer population. You seem to be in agreement with this too.
However how such big nose came to existence at first place in first farmers? Is it an excellent nose to sniff out ripe wheat for harvest? lol Who knows. It might be, as well, a gift from Neanderthals. The Near East was the place where Homo-sapiens met Neanderthal for the first time, and "fell in love".

There is one remote place were big noses appear in native population. Some North American Indians. Like this Cree guy.
http://www.greatcanadianlakes.com/manitoba/lake_winnipeg/image_ar/picimages/a182215sm.jpg

As enigmatic as R1b source in Natives. Gifts from one of migrations from Asia?


I thought perhaps from ANE, but the highest ANE is in South American Indians, and their noses are pretty flat, although maybe not usually as flat as many Africans and East Asians.. Then again, the North American Indians have very prominent noses too. The Bronze Age Warrior also might have had some Yamnaya "Armenian like" ancestry via Corded Ware,I guess, but it's not an "Armenian like" nose really. What about WGH like Loschbour? I know the reproduction gave him a prominent nose, but can you really tell that from the skeleton?

WHG were very isolated for ANE hunter gatherers. In this case there is no problem that they could look differently. One group with smaller one with bigger beak. Though your example of South Americans and most North Asian people having smaller noses is not supporting big ANE nose. Gravettian curving of a head point to WHG have smaller noses too, assuming no big population replacement since Gravettians till La Brania.


Maybe it's just the case that although your series represents the "original" nose, it survives best in certain environments. Different environmental factors might have led to the "bonier" noses we see in West Asia and Europe. Definitely, or simple founder effect, or side effect of other positive mutations. Can't wait till we can reconstruct exact faces from reading dna code.

LeBrok
25-01-15, 23:30
IMO, there's a difference between a prominent nose and a wide nose, although the two can be combined. But I see wide noses as being common in both SSA populations and some East Asian populations, particularly in New Guinea, which has more Denisovian than some other East Asian populations (some of whom have quite small noses). So maybe the wide nose is, by coincidence, common among both SSA populations and people with a fair minority of Denisovian ancestry.
I'm thinking along same lines. It seems that Australians and New Guineans marched fairly fast from some place in Africa to the destination.

Typical nose of Australian Aborigines.

http://img1.photographersdirect.com/img/19120/wm/pd1029491.jpghttp://img.izismile.com/img/img3/20101018/640/faces_of_australian_640_01.jpg


I've checked African folks for similarities of the nose. The most similar nose comes in central sub saharan Africa.
Malawi
http://msutoday.msu.edu/_/img/assets/2013/malawi-woman-1.jpg


Batwa people, recent hunter gatherers from jungle of Uganda
http://thepearlguide.co.ug/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/The-endangered-Batwa-pygmy-population-of-Uganda.jpg

http://www.didemtali.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/DSC_8070.jpg

Look at the girl from Batwa village, interview at 4:50 min. If not the context I would guess that she's Australian.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHmxDiMv3uk#t=311

LeBrok
25-01-15, 23:43
IMO, there's a difference between a prominent nose and a wide nose, although the two can be combined. But I see wide noses as being common in both SSA populations and some East Asian populations, particularly in New Guinea, which has more Denisovian than some other East Asian populations (some of whom have quite small noses).
New Guineans have somewhat different noses than Australians. Much higher bridge.

http://i.imgur.com/vsk0i.jpg

Well, at least some of them. Like a different migration group. They don't look very african on this picture.

LeBrok
26-01-15, 01:16
Minoan Nose, Neolithic Mediterranean
http://www.ancientgreece.com/media/img/Minoan_Queens_Fresco.jpg

http://img1.liveinternet.ru/images/attach/c/0//46/496/46496479_05e85ac8489027d85b.jpg

http://www.lebrecht.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/82285_fresco-the-parisienne-from.jpg

All pictures, that I could find, point to the high bridge, almost in line nose bridge with forehead, still common in Greece. Another clue for this nose being of first farmers origin.

hope
26-01-15, 01:59
14 type of noses recently identified, by professor Abraham Tamir.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2013699/There-14-types-nose--yours.html

I was unable to find source research paper, can someone help please.
Could only find this abstract... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21586956

LeBrok
26-01-15, 02:23
This is the skull of Neanderthal from Near East. Its nose bridge starts very low, below eyes.
http://www.harunyahya.com/image/evrim_aldatmacasi/neandertal_skull.jpg
http://www.harunyahya.com/en/Books/974/the-evolution-deceit/chapter/3577

Its nasal cavity reminds more of sub saharan African skull cavity.

http://www.connecticutvalleybiological.com/isotope/a/an2318-6abebd84.jpg

Modern European with big nose, bridge starts much higher, closer to forehead and is taller.
http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Images_Etruscan/White_skull.jpg

In this case the near eastern Neanderthal nose looked more like central African nose.
http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/scale_small/3/34651/2485570-morgan+freeman.jpg

Here goes my hypothesis that the tall nose is inherited from Near Eastern Neanderthals.

PS. I like Morgan Freeman and I'm not suggesting that he is a Neanderthal. He just might have his proxy nose.

LeBrok
26-01-15, 02:30
Plaster skull from Jericho, Pre Pottery Neolithic B, 8 to 6 thousand BC, has already tall bridge nose.

http://www.drshirley.org/pics/neo/05-06.jpg
http://www.drshirley.org/rel433/Neolithic.html

LeBrok
26-01-15, 03:07
Here is 90 thousand year old skull from Israel cave, skull Kamzeh 9 features is called early modern human and has Caucasian like nasal cavity.
http://www.goldentime.ru/im_fossils/qafzeh_9_big.jpg

LeBrok
26-01-15, 03:21
Could only find this abstract... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21586956
Thanks hope, I got excited reading the abstract, just to find out that full paper is behind the paywall.
Well, more time for my research lol.

Mars
26-01-15, 11:45
Minoan Nose, Neolithic Mediterranean
http://www.ancientgreece.com/media/img/Minoan_Queens_Fresco.jpg

http://img1.liveinternet.ru/images/attach/c/0//46/496/46496479_05e85ac8489027d85b.jpg

http://www.lebrecht.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/82285_fresco-the-parisienne-from.jpg

All pictures, that I could find, point to the high bridge, almost in line nose bridge with forehead, still common in Greece. Another clue for this nose being of first farmers origin.
My GF, full southern italian ancestry:
https://scontent-b-mxp.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/149234_180359778646527_1443695_n.jpg?oh=468d443c25 9a85462f04f061417816c2&oe=555EC9AB

Angela
26-01-15, 14:26
My GF, full southern italian ancestry:
https://scontent-b-mxp.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/149234_180359778646527_1443695_n.jpg?oh=468d443c25 9a85462f04f061417816c2&oe=555EC9AB

Ah, unless your grandfather was a girl, perhaps you meant GM?:grin:

Angela
26-01-15, 15:38
This is the skull of Neanderthal from Near East. Its nose bridge starts very low, below eyes.
http://www.harunyahya.com/image/evrim_aldatmacasi/neandertal_skull.jpg
http://www.harunyahya.com/en/Books/974/the-evolution-deceit/chapter/3577

Its nasal cavity reminds more of sub saharan African skull cavity.

http://www.connecticutvalleybiological.com/isotope/a/an2318-6abebd84.jpg

Modern European with big nose, bridge starts much higher, closer to forehead and is taller.
http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Images_Etruscan/White_skull.jpg

In this case the near eastern Neanderthal nose looked more like central African nose.
http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/scale_small/3/34651/2485570-morgan+freeman.jpg

Here goes my hypothesis that the tall nose is inherited from Near Eastern Neanderthals.

PS. I like Morgan Freeman and I'm not suggesting that he is a Neanderthal. He just might have his proxy nose.


Wait, I'm confused...the Neanderthal nose starts below the bridge, you said, and Morgan Freeman's nose is like it and also like a Central African nose. There certainly is no cartilage along the bridge, so how can the "tall" nose be inherited from the Near Eastern Neanderthals? I'll grant you that it may be very old from the Caucasus to Saudi Arabia.

Also, you can have variations with all of this: high rooted, high bridged nose, lower rooted high bridged nose, high rooted long nose (the first Greek goddess statue), very high rooted short broader nose (second goddess statue), high rooted nose with medium bridge, narrow at top and broader base (maybe also the first goddess statue), and then they all come either straight or bumpy or curved.

There are all sort of online drawings of Greek, versus Roman, versus "Armenoid", etc. etc.

Now I, of course, have the perfect nose.:grin: Although neither of my parents had a "Greek" nose, somehow I got one...
it's basically the nose on the goddess with a flower garland on her hair, although it's not quite as long. It's moderately high rooted I guess you could say, absolutely straight, no bumps or curves, no dip down at the bottom. The only thing is, I don't know if their noses were the same width all the way down. My nose is narrow at the top and wider at the base. From the front it sort of looks like this:
http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/bg/Carice+Van+Houten+20th+Annual+Screen+Actors+3REugQ h1p2yl.jpg

I've seen pictures of Carice Van Hooten in profile, though, and she doesn't have that "Greek" thing going on with the root.

Mars
26-01-15, 15:40
Ah, unless your grandfather was a girl, perhaps you meant GM?:grin:
:laughing: Girlfriend... You, Angela, grammar nazi! :laughing::laughing:
Anyway... Her mum is calabrian. The ancient greek dialect spoken there, Griko, now almost extinct, has affinities with the cretan dialect... And Creta was the homeland of the minoan civilization. Cool, huh? :good_job:

Silesian
26-01-15, 15:48
Croats often have huge beaks, myself included

http://www.index.hr/images2/duvnjakJAk-gertty.jpg

Four samples from antiquity.

Thracian King Seuthes III (330-301) BC. https://balkancelts.wordpress.com/tag/celtic-fibulae/https://balkancelts.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/brhed-svt.jpg?w=640

Skilurus- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skilurus
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d6/Skiluros.jpg/120px-Skiluros.jpg

Cherchen man http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherchen_Man

http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/Images/countries/Chinese%20pics/cherchen.jpg

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/world/asia/19mummy.html?

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/11/19/world/19mummy_600.JPG

LeBrok
26-01-15, 22:58
Wait, I'm confused...the Neanderthal nose starts below the bridge, you said, and Morgan Freeman's nose is like it and also like a Central African nose. There certainly is no cartilage along the bridge, so how can the "tall" nose be inherited from the Near Eastern Neanderthals? I'll grant you that it may be very old from the Caucasus to Saudi Arabia. I agree with you, I just didn't word my "change of mind" very well:

Here goes my hypothesis that the tall nose is inherited from Near Eastern Neanderthals.
In other words, the big-tall nose wasn't inherited from Neanderthals.

Judging by the 90,000 year old skull from Israel (post 37), the caucasian nose was already a feature of early modern humans (Homo Sapiens Sapiens). These HSS were contemporary of Near Eastern Neanderthals, who had quite different low bridge nose (small nasal bone). There is no way caucasian nose is from Neanderthal.




Also, you can have variations with all of this: high rooted, high bridged nose, lower rooted high bridged nose, high rooted long nose (the first Greek goddess statue), very high rooted short broader nose (second goddess statue), high rooted nose with medium bridge, narrow at top and broader base (maybe also the first goddess statue), and then they all come either straight or bumpy or curved.
That's right. I was calling high rooted nose as tall bridge nose. I'll pay a better attention in the future.





Now I, of course, have the perfect nose.:grin: Although neither of my parents had a "Greek" nose, somehow I got one...
it's basically the nose on the goddess with a flower garland on her hair, although it's not quite as long. It's moderately high rooted I guess you could say, absolutely straight, no bumps or curves, no dip down at the bottom. The only thing is, I don't know if their noses were the same width all the way down. My nose is narrow at the top and wider at the base. From the front it sort of looks like this:
I've seen pictures of Carice Van Hooten in profile, though, and she doesn't have that "Greek" thing going on with the root.

I think, the important element for a Greek nose is not only high rooted but also very parallel to the forehead. Nose look almost vertical. Very high root makes a tall bridge at nasal bone and makes it look very vertical.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/34842/34842-h/images/illus05.jpg

On other spectrum of verticality is Stalin. Very high root, nose and forehead parallel to each other, but angle is off the vertical a lot. It doesn't look Greek to me.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT1XohNSOR64CSNL8K7TYjzSrbhp7Zxx Jue1eYJFwaCx2_xR2lK

LeBrok
26-01-15, 23:05
Emperor constantin was hal Illyrian. He has an interesting profile. Neither a Greek nose, nor Roman. Forehead is very vertical but his nose bridge is at almost 45% angle off vertical.
Could this be a Illyrian nose?

http://www.imgbox.de/users/6opuc/ConstantineBustCapitolinirgtbgtrb.jpg

I found his father Constantius Chlorus.
http://www.genealogie-93-generationen.eu/bilder/Ks.Constantius%20Chlorus.jpg

Definitely a dinaric beak found today in Balkans.

LeBrok
26-01-15, 23:23
Seuthes 3rh, king of Thrace, 4th century BC (Bulgaria).
https://balkancelts.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/brhed-svt.jpg?w=640

Not very Greek, neither Dinaric.

LeBrok
26-01-15, 23:47
Ancient Egyption.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/94/Nefertiti_altes_Museum2.jpg/431px-Nefertiti_altes_Museum2.jpghttp://s2.hubimg.com/u/2028049_f260.jpghttp://www.ancient-egypt.co.uk/metropolitan/images/Dynasty%204%20Statue%20of%20Memi%20and%20Sabu%202. jpg

Maleth
27-01-15, 07:12
Seuthes 3rh, king of Thrace, 4th century BC (Bulgaria).
https://balkancelts.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/brhed-svt.jpg?w=640

Not very Greek, neither Dinaric.

Oh we can definitely relate to this....how interesting :)

These are not the best profile pics but here it goes.
my nose
70467047Dads nose :)

MOESAN
29-01-15, 00:30
there have been surely some neat tendancies among ancient people - today (as for other features) we find in every country different shapes of nose -
very often the eye can catch differences in shapes but when we try to put them in categories we find some hard work:
simple explanation: the nose is maybe the part of body where the most numerous alleles are involved, controlling bones, muscles, cartilages, and so, even a simple 2 patterns mix can create a lot of different shapes among descendants since the second generation: if it's uneasy to find a "pure" ethnic nose, nose is a good mean to devine crossings we cannot find so easily in other partos of body and head - that said, some common shapes can be associated to some phenotypes as for other features because the forms are not evenly distributed among countries and ethnies - (Askhenazes are very unlevel concerning noses)
some kinds of typical "armenian" or "saoudian" noses appears to me as the result of a crossing-over where a short 'cro-magnoid' bony nose (jutting and broad and with short aperture in crania) is associated to a long 'dorsum' less jutting (one of the 'mediterranean' types), and a turned-down beaked tip, with "perturbated" nostrils apertures due to the opposite tendancies of a high placed back side and a lower placed anterior side of nostrils: this nose is "dysharmonic" as well in profile as at frontal sight (too broad at the top-middle, too broad at nostrils but too tiny at tip) - different from some classical 'convex' noses wihich are regular enough, tiny all the way and "harmonic" -
as a whole a crossing-over result in a population is not completely stable and is chalenged by other results of the same crossing-over' action it can become relatively stabel for generations and become the dominent feature in a previously small population or a clanic one, by drift
the Depardieu tip I think was common too among 'cromagnoids' but among them more 'jump-up' and on a shorter nose - just my thought "à vue de nez" as we say in french!

LeBrok
29-01-15, 04:10
Assyrian nose was high root, tall bridge and rounded tip. Often tip pointing down.
http://www.bibleandscience.com/shop/images/Assyrian%20Merchant%20head%20large.jpg

http://daydreamtourist.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/priest.jpg

https://www.wawallap.com/images/AS-028_A.jpg

http://daydreamtourist.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/poor-guy.jpg

LeBrok
29-01-15, 04:34
Mark Antoni and Cleopatra
http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/imp/cleopatra/RSC_0001.jpg
http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/sear5/s1515.html

Angela
31-01-15, 14:58
I think these must ultimately come from the Neolithic source:

Richard Armitage:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-sz4qbILPuow/T4nV7fDFFWI/AAAAAAAANvI/pRwbzKabhIg/s1600/thornton01.png

Christopher Lee:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9o5ulZhH6bg/TyrBT8mbnlI/AAAAAAAAEk4/xCJFjCkhNWI/s1600/CRISTOPHER+LEE.jpg

Cate Blanchett:
https://feelthefilms.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/cate-blanchett-34.jpg

This one too, perhaps? Ian McKellan:
http://www.mckellen.com/images/4194.jpg

This one not, I think...Benedict Cumberbatch:
http://trash-russia.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/creativity-by-natasha-kinaru-drawn-pictures-of-celebrities-16.jpg

Sorry, I just saw the latest Hobbit movie...:)

Yetos
31-01-15, 17:40
ok
he has a Dutch name,

but where we can classiffy him,

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-sIRTwOy47Ew/TqReo61z0jI/AAAAAAAAAM8/wlm86fvfLwE/s1600/van+cleef+1.jpg

LeBrok
31-01-15, 18:51
ok
he has a Dutch name,

but where we can classiffy him,

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-sIRTwOy47Ew/TqReo61z0jI/AAAAAAAAAM8/wlm86fvfLwE/s1600/van+cleef+1.jpg

Definitaly Near Eastern/Mediterranean type. I wonder were these hi curved nostrils, exposing a lot of columella are most common?
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4038/4346554681_2db301ee67.jpg

LeBrok
31-01-15, 19:09
Exposed columella type noses. Columella is low and nostrils curved up.
http://www.davisrhinoplasty.com/images/def/fig14.jpg http://www.orangecountycosmeticsurgery.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/13-slightly-hanging-columella-notching.jpg



Here we have nostrils at normal place but columella hanging low.

http://www.rhinoplasty-nyc.com/images/p38_front2.jpg


Here columella is in normal place but nostrils are curved high.

http://www.losangelesnosesurgeon.com/images/nose%205c.jpg

LeBrok
31-01-15, 21:02
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRMv8EioQM_r36xHdTVRT6ZZr_sGdOkr 8Xl4u0F3uWeUT1PqJqlDw
Almost classical Greek.


Almost classical.

Dalmat
02-02-15, 12:28
Emparor Augustus and his lookalike

http://www.hadrians.com/images/graphics/rome/emperors/augustus.jpg

http://www.halamadrid.fr/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/luka-modric-Croatie.jpg

Same nose type, mouth, facial bone structure, and head shape

Alpine-dinaric

Dalmat
02-02-15, 15:32
big straight high rooted nose
http://ht.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/video/teams/pacers/2015/01/27/150127PostgamePacersmp4-3502729-6.576x324.jpg

http://ht.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/video/teams/pacers/2015/01/14/Rudez150114f4v-3490988-7.576x324.jpg

Angela
02-02-15, 17:37
@Dalmat
He does indeed look like Augustus.

@El Horsto
The Yamnaya man does look a lot more like Caligula than like Carlsen

@LeBrok
I also think that Cate Blanchett's nose profile is close to the classical Greek one, at least as exemplified in the first goddess statue (the one with a flower garland). Of course, her eyes and mouth are off, but you can't see that very well in profile.

The actress in The Outlander series, Catriona Balfe, also has an approximation of it, I think:
http://i60.tinypic.com/nxvvwp.jpg

A lot of famous actors, particularly those of a prior era, had a high rooted, prominent, straight, but slightly shorter nose. My father had this kind of nose, although slightly smaller.

The Barrymore's were famous for it.

John Barrymore, with the Columbella thing going on, as well:
http://www.goldensilents.com/stars/johnbarrymoreportrait.jpg

John Gilbert:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_PZrtCMavlUA/TSrya6xNNOI/AAAAAAAAC3E/29GkNcI3n-0/s320/John+Gilbert+Profile.png

Gregory Peck also had an approximation of it. The actual profile pictures are too large to post, but you can see it here too, I think:
http://f.tqn.com/y/classicfilm/1/L/S/K/-/-/Gregory-Peck---1955.jpg

Angela
02-02-15, 18:11
Lord Byron had that nose too, and Wordsworth as well, although with Wordsworth there seems to be a bit more of a Roman thing going on, with a slight bump at the bridge:

http://www.poetryfoundation.org/uploads/authors/lord-byron/448x/lord-byron.jpg

http://www.poets.org/sites/default/files/styles/286x289/public/images/biographies/wwordswo.jpg?itok=s8eJ4z7a

Some more modern actors have a sort of indented root, high and bumpy bridged and long nose. I think you can find that in the ancient Greeks and Romans as well.

Charlton Heston:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/Charlton_Heston_-_1961_hearing.jpg

Meryl Streep:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8qCV6TqdyL8/TmGyUG63GoI/AAAAAAAAAMg/U9PpQybC9g4/s1600/afi2010inside009.jpg

Angela
02-02-15, 18:36
Marlon Brando's sort of looks like the one of the half Illyrian emperor.
http://classicmoviechat.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/mature-brando.jpg

The great Ingmar Bergman's has a strangely "Assyrian" (?) look to it:
http://www.topnews.in/files/Ingmar-Bergman.jpg


As does Peter Stormare's:
http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BOTUyMDQ0MTEyNF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTYwNDYxMDkz._V1_S X640_SY720_.jpg

This is the classic and famous profile of Greta Garbo...long and prominent, but tilted upwards:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-15rEDJVjaQI/UQc_OCF_15I/AAAAAAAAAW0/Ba-m3p1ka7w/s400/Greta-Garbo-greta-garbo-6348954-500-800.jpg


They're totally different from that of Liv Ullman:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3181/3115504952_9358656f57_b.jpg

Sile
02-02-15, 19:33
I doubt its genetic value

my father looks like maleth nose and mine like john barrymore ( post 59 )

LeBrok
02-02-15, 21:19
I doubt its genetic value

my father looks like maleth nose and mine like john barrymore ( post 59 )
Are you implying that all your genes come from your father only, or that the noses come only from a father side?

LeBrok
02-02-15, 21:25
Lord Byron had that nose too, and Wordsworth as well, although with Wordsworth there seems to be a bit more of a Roman thing going on, with a slight bump at the bridge:





Some more modern actors have a sort of indented root, high and bumpy bridged and long nose. I think you can find that in the ancient Greeks and Romans as well.

Charlton Heston:


Meryl Streep:


Perhaps, hollywood perceived a manly face to look more classical way back, than it does today, the metro man style look, often with soft features?

LeBrok
02-02-15, 21:38
big straight high rooted nose
http://ht.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/video/teams/pacers/2015/01/27/150127PostgamePacersmp4-3502729-6.576x324.jpg



Wow, that's a king of noses!

Reminds me of Stalin profile, though the guy has more classical nostrils. Stalin's columella shows.
http://84d1f3.medialib.glogster.com/maysonallen/media/2b/2b961024dfdffc36ceaeb19c3166a1bfc33af597/0020n099.jpg

LeBrok
02-02-15, 21:41
Emparor Augustus and his lookalike

http://www.hadrians.com/images/graphics/rome/emperors/augustus.jpg

http://www.halamadrid.fr/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/luka-modric-Croatie.jpg

Same nose type, mouth, facial bone structure, and head shape

Alpine-dinaric
Now, this is a very close likeness. Even the lips, chin, brows, shape of head are the same. Can we say reincarnation?

LeBrok
02-02-15, 21:57
Bonaparte also had quite a beak.
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSR736ggh34hjcVrq4te_Q3sTKqf03FQ 7UzNqgAbZFzezGNUbFw

Angela
02-02-15, 23:48
Perhaps, hollywood perceived a manly face to look more classical way back, than it does today, the metro man style look, often with soft features?

Actors (and actresses) today are often not really classically beautiful, not like in the days of the big Hollywood studios, when both men and women were picked for their beauty and were often then trained to act. I do think that there's also a trend today for actors to be chosen for their appeal to very young girls because that's the market for a lot of movies, and so they do have softer, less "masculine" faces.

For me, none of the actors today have the masculine beauty of Gregory Peck (posted above), or, as below, Gary Cooper or Cary Grant or Clark Gable. Those were the biggest grossing male stars of their era.



Gary Cooper:
http://cdn.revistagq.com/uploads/images/thumbs/201311/gary_cooper_483_511x.jpg

Cary Grant:
http://www.cornel1801.com/video/Notorious/Cary-Grant-TR-Devlin.jpg

http://cdn.thehairpin.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Picture-36.jpg


The only one I can think of today is Hugh Jackman. Brad Pitt was very pretty when he was young, but not masculine enough looking for my taste, and he hasn't aged very well.
http://www.australia2012.coop/sites/default/files/u2/hugh-jackman-488x370_0.jpg

Brad Pitt when young:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-j0VLlwTUS9Q/TqUiXPP2WCI/AAAAAAAAEGs/Kwx8kDXxAho/s1600/BradPittFace2.JPG

MOESAN
13-02-15, 23:03
I doubt its genetic value

my father looks like maleth nose and mine like john barrymore ( post 59 )

there is NO other part of body giving so much genetic imput traces, at the opposite: nose is almost entirely genetic, escaping the most of selection pressure
what is puzzling in it is this richness of involved genes in it, in fact - a 2 parent "races" crossing give an homogenous enough result at first generation, with surely some dominant traits which don't give a "middle result" for every criteria of shape, but in subsequent generation of the same crossing, this richness of imputs give way to an almost inclassible profusion of forms - for only 2 ligneages -and as in Europe at least 3 or 4 great lignages are envolved we have no possibility to find an homogenous population for noses - only some statistical tendancies when some ligneage is very dominant in the mix - so some countries as Finland show a bit more concave nose with a snub tip, or Armenia and Levant show a bit more convex noses, and yet, not the same roots etc... it would be too long to go into details here, and I can no more post pictures, for an unkown reason...

Aberdeen
14-02-15, 04:33
Actors (and actresses) today are often not really classically beautiful, not like in the days of the big Hollywood studios, when both men and women were picked for their beauty and were often then trained to act. I do think that there's also a trend today for actors to be chosen for their appeal to very young girls because that's the market for a lot of movies, and so they do have softer, less "masculine" faces.

.....................




The classical example of that soft look is Leonardo DiCaprio who was a much bigger star back when he had very soft "feminine" features. One film critic said that in the Titanic movie DiCaprio looked like a fourteen year old lesbian.

Pax Augusta
15-02-15, 02:13
Is this thread serious?

LeBrok
15-02-15, 02:47
Is this thread serious?
Not more than recognizing a Greek by his toes. ;)

Pax Augusta
20-02-15, 14:28
Not more than recognizing a Greek by his toes. ;)

Or a Celtic warrior by his fingers. :D

LeBrok
09-05-15, 17:33
Ashton Kutcher is a classical Greek.
http://hdwyn.com/wallpaper/ashton_kutcher_profile_face_hd-wallpaper-58650.jpg

http://orwelltoday.com/anglosaxonbust.jpg

Angela
12-05-15, 17:18
When seen from the front the model for the David had a little bit of a Roman thing going on, but definitely in the same family.
http://everypainterpaintshimself.com/article_images_new/David_Face_Eyes.jpg

This is Antinous, the lover of the Emperor Hadrian, and considered the most beautiful person of his time...
http://www.corbisimages.com/images/Corbis-DE006468.jpg?size=67&uid=4da0316d-bb0d-428b-838a-047bb881dc28

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7266/6884866544_0b33cb857d_z.jpg


By this standard, Kushner's nose is a little short, but certainly in the same ball park.

Strangely, the actresses who came to mind who I posted were Anglo ones. The only modern Italian actress who comes to mind is the Sardinian actress Caterina Murino, and even hers isn't perfect from the side.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/92/e0/40/92e04091bc9a8c1e51521d31ae28736a.jpg

Aptly enough, Irene Papas had it:
http://41.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lvcsafRLSd1qzsjsdo1_1280.png

Maybe Margareth Madè has it;I can't tell bkz I can't find a really good profile picture:
http://coolspotters.com/files/photos/439123/margareth-made-profile.jpg


I only just noticed it, but Kate Middleton's is good at the root, but the base is too pug and upturned.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/01/30/article-2270453-173C3E15000005DC-972_306x423.jpg

Eva Green? There's a little bump, though...and a bit of an upward tilt, although I don't know if it's bkz of surgery.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/54/fa/2d/54fa2d76ab0951a721f58858fed12573.jpg

Carice Van Houten's is pretty good in this photo, I think...
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130526213450/gameofthrones/images/0/02/Second_Sons_Melisandre.png

Ed. Oh, I thought of one...Alba Rohrwacher, but in profile the root is a little depressed.
http://www.mauxa.com/media/images/2010/06/16/Alba-Rohrwacher-106.jpg

MtDNA
07-07-15, 23:43
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/69247000/jpg/_69247083_einsteingettyafp.jpg

http://www.wallpaperhi.com/thumbnails/detail/20130115/men%20people%20actors%20clive%20owen%20faces%20374 4x2808%20wallpaper_www.wallpaperhi.com_60.jpg



http://passioncine.fr/passioncine/cache/com_zoo/images/Daniel%20Craig_ee4e18dd982ae2dadc6d506f1e9e72a5.jp g

Any ideas where it dominates?


Within non-Africans, it is one of the characteristics of Arabs and related groups (other semites and Arab admixtures). In many Americans, it can be explained by part-African ancestry.

MtDNA
08-07-15, 16:22
http://mienshiang.com/wp-content/uploads/sample-chapter/ch-sample_08.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--_cHVhiYSb4/UcB4_YLKH3I/AAAAAAAAOfE/WFLKTsJl2VY/s1600/29628032932920e7c85fce02e1ebb58c.jpg

http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/1/285x214/296800_1.jpg

A downward pointed nose alone cannot indicate ethnicity. You must look at the shape of it. For the central one, it looks Ashkenazi because of its fleshy tip, and because its nostril flare is towards the front. The first and third ones are hard to determine, but I've seen many people with the third nose in Iranic groups.

LeBrok
08-07-15, 16:38
A downward pointed nose alone cannot indicate ethnicity. You must look at the shape of it. For the central one, it looks Ashkenazi because of its fleshy tip, and because its nostril flare is towards the front. The first and third ones are hard to determine, but I've seen many people with the third nose in Iranic groups.
Today people are very mixed and all type of noses can happen everywhere. All we can see is frequency of some features on statistical bases. In the future though, once we learn haw to recognize fleshy parts of body from DNA, we should be able to reconstruct where the different looks, noses included, came from. It will be so much fun to see how it happened. It will be like rewinding the movie, going back to the future, and see how the flared nostrils came about, or a hooked nose. We will be able to exactly reconstruct ancient faces and whole bodies, and see people "in person", who lived 5,000 years ago.

Angela
08-07-15, 17:46
Within non-Africans, it is one of the characteristics of Arabs and related groups (other semites and Arab admixtures). In many Americans, it can be explained by part-African ancestry.

I must be misunderstanding you. This is an SSA nose.
http://i38.tinypic.com/2aaiseq.jpg
http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/media/images/80475000/jpg/_80475186_80475185.jpg
It bears absolutely no resemblance to Einstein's, nor to "Semitic" noses.

One is tropics adapted, the other is not.

If anything, flat noses in Europe are Siberian, East Asian related.

MtDNA
08-07-15, 22:16
I must be misunderstanding you. This is an SSA nose.
http://i38.tinypic.com/2aaiseq.jpg
http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/media/images/80475000/jpg/_80475186_80475185.jpg
It bears absolutely no resemblance to Einstein's, nor to "Semitic" noses.

One is tropics adapted, the other is not.

If anything, flat noses in Europe are Siberian, East Asian related.

I was talking about the rounded fleshy tip. And I didn't say it was in all of them, just that it was an indicator trait of Arab/African (or related group) ancestry.
Such as this.

7360
Iraqi (Arab)

7361
Kanye West (African)

7362
Sephardi Jew (Semite)

7364
South Indian (Y-DNA J3 present, MtDNA U8 present, ancestrally related to Semites)

http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000ZjBDvVaji5A/s/850/680/GDeichmann-Portraits-Countries198.jpg
Australian Aborigine (did not undergoe many facial structure mutations since leaving Africa)

Angela
09-07-15, 00:50
Now South Indians are Semites??? Is this the result of the Stormfront School of Physical Anthropology?

Then I guess Scandinavians are SSA. Just look at the noses...

http://i.imgur.com/CJiVJ.jpg

http://im.mtv.fi/image/1246578/landscape16_9/400/225/a2fc0d1c6520cce714ea015e3428e17a/id/509771.jpg

http://www.themarysue.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/liv.jpg

Even the Brits can get into the act:

http://www3.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Wayne+Rooney+Jr+Welterweight+Fight+Ricky+Hatton+MB GWOkduFBel.jpg

Has the absurdity of this claim been sufficiently demonstrated?

MtDNA
09-07-15, 01:55
Now South Indians are Semites??? Is this the result of the Stormfront School of Physical Anthropology?

Then I guess Scandinavians are SSA. Just look at the noses...

http://i.imgur.com/CJiVJ.jpg

http://im.mtv.fi/image/1246578/landscape16_9/400/225/a2fc0d1c6520cce714ea015e3428e17a/id/509771.jpg

http://www.themarysue.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/liv.jpg

Even the Brits can get into the act:

http://www3.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Wayne+Rooney+Jr+Welterweight+Fight+Ricky+Hatton+MB GWOkduFBel.jpg

Has the absurdity of this claim been sufficiently demonstrated?


Have you noticed that mtDNA K is a descendant of U8, which is in southern India. Also, only J2 and J1 are outside of India (strongly associated with Semitic and nearby populations). J3 is within India. It would be foolish to say that populations with high concentrations of these haplogroups do not share common ancient ancestry with south Indians.

Plus, those people's noses aren't really "fleshy". The first one is rounded, but flat, with a short bridge, and no downward slope. The third one is fleshy and downward sloping, but that is not surprising for an "Ullman". The fourth one has an Irish nose, which looks similar to an African nose, but has a concave slope. It is in its own unique class.

MtDNA
09-07-15, 02:01
Today people are very mixed and all type of noses can happen everywhere. All we can see is frequency of some features on statistical bases. In the future though, once we learn haw to recognize fleshy parts of body from DNA, we should be able to reconstruct where the different looks, noses included, came from. It will be so much fun to see how it happened. It will be like rewinding the movie, going back to the future, and see how the flared nostrils came about, or a hooked nose. We will be able to exactly reconstruct ancient faces and whole bodies, and see people "in person", who lived 5,000 years ago.

I hope to be able to do research on the effects of genes on nose shape very soon. I just need to find a proffesor willing to take me under their wings.

LeBrok
09-07-15, 02:54
I hope to be able to do research on the effects of genes on nose shape very soon. I just need to find a professor willing to take me under their wings.
I wish you the best in this endeavor. :)

LeBrok
09-07-15, 03:11
Sub Saharan Africa have variety of noses. Flat nose was common on West Coast where the most slaves were coming from in colonial times. East cost have smaller noses.
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Ethiopian noses could have been influenced by migrations from Near East as their lighter skin tone might suggest, or maybe Near Easterners came from this region thousands years ago giving start to Natufians?
http://img11.deviantart.net/a5e5/i/2012/279/7/9/ethiopian_faces_1_by_citizenfresh-d5gxqxy.jpg

Khaleeji
13-11-15, 07:13
Lebrok can you recognize my ethnicity ? i have been told i look Jewish :))) sorry if that sounds racist

Khaleeji
13-11-15, 07:13
Caucasoid features !!

Tomenable
21-01-16, 22:22
My nose is most similar to the following examples (posted so far in this thread):

Emperor Constantine / Meryl Streep / Charlton Heston / Richard Armitage / Wordsworth

By the way, this thread is very much about noses, but not so much about ethnicity.

Not only ethnicity of individuals posted is not mentioned (apart from some cases), but also to really describe ethnic patterns of nose shapes, we would need to have some statistical data based on large representative samples, not just cherry-picked examples.

Anyway, a very nice nose appreciation thread. Indeed my nose appreciates too, snif, snif.

======================================

I must add at least one brick to this wall of noses:

"Portrait of Dogmatius, the confidant of the emperor Constantine":

http://ancientrome.ru/art/artworken/img.htm?id=781

http://ancientrome.ru/art/artwork/sculp/rom/empire/man/0009.jpg

LeBrok
22-01-16, 03:06
My nose is most similar to the following examples (posted so far in this thread):

Emperor Constantine / Meryl Streep / Charlton Heston / Richard Armitage / Wordsworth

By the way, this thread is very much about noses, but not so much about ethnicity.

Not only ethnicity of individuals posted is not mentioned (apart from some cases), but also to really describe ethnic patterns of nose shapes, we would need to have some statistical data based on large representative samples, not just cherry-picked examples.

Anyway, a very nice nose appreciation thread. Indeed my nose appreciates too, snif, snif.

======================================

I must add at least one brick to this wall of noses:

"Portrait of Dogmatius, the confidant of the emperor Constantine":

http://ancientrome.ru/art/artworken/img.htm?id=781


Europe is rich in shapes and sizes of noses. It is rather a daunting task to attached a nose to any ethnicity. We can only notice trends and slow changes when traveling through Europe in any direction, but the same types of noses can be found everywhere. That's because European population is a construct of 3 major ancient population mixes, not mentioning sporadic migrations and invaders from far away.
When I started this thread I thought I was going to be able to pinpoint few noses with their ethnicities, but it didn't work out.
The very interesting part will happen in the future, when we can reconstruct faces, with noses included, once we learn how to read DNA from ancient corpses. Then we should be able to figure out with what population certain nose came to Europe.

Angela
22-01-16, 04:10
My nose is most similar to the following examples (posted so far in this thread):

Emperor Constantine / Meryl Streep / Charlton Heston / Richard Armitage / Wordsworth

By the way, this thread is very much about noses, but not so much about ethnicity.

Not only ethnicity of individuals posted is not mentioned (apart from some cases), but also to really describe ethnic patterns of nose shapes, we would need to have some statistical data based on large representative samples, not just cherry-picked examples.

Anyway, a very nice nose appreciation thread. Indeed my nose appreciates too, snif, snif.

======================================

I must add at least one brick to this wall of noses:

"Portrait of Dogmatius, the confidant of the emperor Constantine":

http://ancientrome.ru/art/artworken/img.htm?id=781

http://ancientrome.ru/art/artwork/sculp/rom/empire/man/0009.jpg

I was mainly just having fun with it. I'm probably a big offender in not posting the ethnicity of the people, mostly because I thought people would know them and their place of origin. Also, the American and Australian actors I posted are of mixed ethnicites, although we know that Clark Gable, for example, had a lot of southern German ancestry, while Cary Grant was totally British in ancestry (Bristol, I think.)

As LeBrok said, I don't think you can tie one nose shape to one region in Europe, although some may be more common in some regions than in others.

The men you mentioned all have strong, masculine noses. Richard Armitage's and Wordsworth's are very elegant as well. I approve. :)

Quite a handsome nose on Dogmatius as well, although his eyes are set too close together, and the expression the artist has given them is very unpleasant, as is the set of the mouth.

I used to be told quite often by my friends that I looked like a dark haired Meryl Streep. I sort of see it, but my nose in profile is really different, much more high rooted, no dip down at the end, and definitely no bumps. Those give character to a man's face, I think, but not so becoming on a woman. I unfortunately didn't get my mother's high cheekbones, either. Just my opinion, of course. Tastes differ.

MOESAN
22-01-16, 14:25
Now South Indians are Semites??? Is this the result of the Stormfront School of Physical Anthropology?

Then I guess Scandinavians are SSA. Just look at the noses...

http://i.imgur.com/CJiVJ.jpg

http://im.mtv.fi/image/1246578/landscape16_9/400/225/a2fc0d1c6520cce714ea015e3428e17a/id/509771.jpg

http://www.themarysue.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/liv.jpg

Even the Brits can get into the act:

http://www3.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Wayne+Rooney+Jr+Welterweight+Fight+Ricky+Hatton+MB GWOkduFBel.jpg

Has the absurdity of this claim been sufficiently demonstrated?


I fell on this thread by hazard and did not read it in its whole
I agree these simplistic classifications are the mark of very bad and biased pseudo-anthropology
I have absolUtlely no element to prove it but I think paleolithic and even mesolithic Europeans had tendencies towards this fleshy part of noses, primitive for me - in the chronological meaning, not the intellectual one - a not already evolved form towards more typical europeanlike shapes, and a shape which shared more or less common traits with African and east-Asian shapes, whatever the differences in NASAL BONES SHAPES/ I would say: "archaïc" - the "borreby' types seem to me having this fleshy shape spite their bony structure of nose is very different from the SSA and even the east-Asian ones.
&:always this confusion between ancient Sourhwest-Aasian types and the today relatively modern crossings in some Arabic regions...

MOESAN
22-01-16, 14:40
I think the more "typical" noses among Europeans are not the fact of relatively "pure" lignages but at the contrary the result of crossings producing very surprising shapes sometime not caused by the same genetic background when closely studied: - helped by crossings over - and, by the action of genetic dominance, giving way to statistically common ENOUGH shapes taken by someones as typical for a phenotype, what they are not for the most. Very often these populations showed in smaller number opposed shapes of noses. by example some are high rooted, other are not - - some flaring nostrils relatively high placed in long downwards tippednoses seem the result of crossing between some kind of 'cromagnoid' nose - protuding and broad at the same time, but under a depression under glabella - with a kind of "mediterranean' nose, straighter but longer (this crossing could be common among some Armenians by instance?)

Angela
22-01-16, 18:48
Moesan, do you mean Armenian as in this?
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/15/af/00/15af006ecad7778a60ad620e5280f842.jpg

Or as in this?
http://s3.postimg.org/vj8dqdrfn/image.jpg

This one seems similar to the visual just above.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Armenoid_Lebanese.jpg

Or is it this?
http://www.geocities.ws/racial_reality/p42f3.jpg

This seems like Meryl Streep's nose; just bigger.

If the anthropologists could agree at least about the more common types in an area, however they were originally formed, it would increase credibility.

Tomenable
26-01-16, 14:11
Philip II of Macedon as reconstructed by Richard Neave (but can nose be accurately reconstructed?):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_II_of_Macedon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Neave

https://www.google.pl/search?q=Philip+II+of+Macedon&client=opera&hs=uGQ&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjaz-XyxsfKAhXD33IKHczbBJIQ_AUIBygB&biw=1366&bih=658#tbm=isch&q=philip+ii+of+macedon+skull&imgrc=_

http://www.andantetravels.com/images/products/large/1391528478xfrfacesfrompast.jpg

http://41.media.tumblr.com/56741cd8e4c3932e582386e283535c0b/tumblr_nkcxmwe5VM1se507so1_500.jpg

Myceaneans (Grave Circle B):
http://www.tforum.info/forum/gallery_uploads/gallery_1649_101_293818.jpg

http://s8.postimg.org/gzgf0gnut/Untitled.jpg

http://s30.postimg.org/4nnkno69d/image.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v167/granamyr/Image5.jpg

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu253/Tyranos/Image1-2.jpg

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu253/Tyranos/Image2-5.jpg

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu253/Tyranos/Image4-2.jpg

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu253/Tyranos/Image6-2.jpg

LeBrok
26-01-16, 18:24
I think from a skull we can learn only about the upper part of a nose. How high is the root and an angle of a nose to a face. We have no idea how the fleshy parts looked like or if a nose was straight or not. The good news is that we should be able to read this, and about the whole face, from DNA very soon.

Tomenable
02-02-16, 01:49
Would you say that this video has a good, representative sample of Irish male noses?:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaE_eE2KsjQ

LeBrok
03-02-16, 02:00
Would you say that this video has a good, representative sample of Irish male noses?:
I guess when we see so many Irish people, as in this video, we will get pretty good representation of their noses. The next step would be to statistically measure prevalence of certain type. We would learn which nose is more common and call it "Irish".

Sile
03-02-16, 06:15
Would you say that this video has a good, representative sample of Irish male noses?:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaE_eE2KsjQ

he looks like a tyolese or swiss person

Angela
29-04-16, 02:49
I'm still watching "Une Village Francaise", and it occurred to me I have another pretty good one for the Greek nose. It's not perfect, but pretty close.

Fabrizio Rongione:

http://www.lahiguera.net/cinemania/actores/fabrizio_rongione/fotos/22357/fabrizio_rongione.jpg

He should play Napoleon; I think he looks a lot like him, even if he's darker skinned and has brown eyes.

http://img4.bdbphotos.com/images/120x156/3/y/3yuhhrfvf1qxqvxf.jpg?skj2io4l

http://all-biography.ru/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Bonapart-Napoleon.jpg

Milan
29-04-16, 16:48
Emperor constantin was hal Illyrian. He has an interesting profile. Neither a Greek nose, nor Roman. Forehead is very vertical but his nose bridge is at almost 45% angle off vertical.
Could this be a Illyrian nose?

http://www.imgbox.de/users/6opuc/ConstantineBustCapitolinirgtbgtrb.jpg

I found his father Constantius Chlorus.
http://www.genealogie-93-generationen.eu/bilder/Ks.Constantius%20Chlorus.jpg

Definitely a dinaric beak found today in Balkans.
By his face he look like a tall man too,great many of such individuals to be found in Balkans,well especialy around the place he was born.
That's Gentius Illyrian king pretty similar appearance with the father of Constantine.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/06/Gentius.jpg/220px-Gentius.jpg

LeBrok
29-04-16, 22:03
By his face he look like a tall man too,great many of such individuals to be found in Balkans,well especialy around the place he was born.
That's Gentius Illyrian king pretty similar appearance with the father of Constantine.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/06/Gentius.jpg/220px-Gentius.jpg

Cultures, languages, religion changed a lot in Balkans but not people and there DNA. At least from iron or even the Bronze Age.


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Dianatomia
01-05-16, 22:17
What we describe as Greek noses is usually portrayed in idealized Ancient Greek art. As in gods or heroes. Busts of ancient Greek thinkers for example show a great variety of noses. If anything, they were rather big on average. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Greek_philosopher_busts.jpg

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/greek-philosopher-socrates-bust-sculpture-48518113.jpg

Dinarid
27-05-16, 04:31
People of the Balkans in general, especially men, except maybe Tosk Albanians, have very prominent noses, often "hooked"; mine is a good example, also see Zlatan Ibrahimović. I think it has to do with climate; I remember reading that human noses evolved a bridge as an adaptation to certain environments like mountainous, cold, or dry areas. We love our big noses as they make us unique, and look very masculine.

Angela
27-05-16, 19:17
People of the Balkans in general, especially men, except maybe Tosk Albanians, have very prominent noses, often "hooked"; mine is a good example, also see Zlatan Ibrahimović. I think it has to do with climate; I remember reading that human noses evolved a bridge as an adaptation to certain environments like mountainous, cold, or dry areas. We love our big noses as they make us unique, and look very masculine.

I think old time anthropologists saw it as a function of the admixture, in certain cases, of Alpine and Mediterranean peoples. However it happened, you definitely find it in Italy too, although not at all as frequently as some people think.


Fabio Ceravolo:
http://40.media.tumblr.com/3f6b2c87c105b15b3ade1cf1cb2bcd74/tumblr_npe3zkP34j1uvkjuao4_400.jpg

http://nst.sky.it/content/dam/static/contentimages/original/sezioni/sport/calcio_italiano/2012/11/16/fabio_ceravolo_reggina_getty.jpg

My husband used to look a lot like him in his youth, although only as far as the face is concerned, which isn't all that surprising as they have ancestors from the same place.

The current heart throb in the U.S., Joe Manganiello:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/01/11/article-0-1A92592300000578-224_634x844.jpg

Apt name for a magazine on whose cover he appears. :) I haven't seen any of the "Magic Mike" movies, as they're not my type of thing, but I know women who've bought them in order to watch them over and over again. It's not my nonna's world anymore, or mine, for that matter. :)

Maleth
27-05-16, 21:18
I think old time anthropologists saw it as a function of the admixture, in certain cases, of Alpine and Mediterranean peoples. However it happened, you definitely find it in Italy too, although not at all as frequently as some people think.

No doubt the profile is my category.http://nst.sky.it/content/dam/static/contentimages/original/sezioni/sport/calcio_italiano/2012/11/16/fabio_ceravolo_reggina_getty.jpg

Last year I was told by a Serb guy that I look like Novak Djokovic (at my younger age of course) I guess he was referring to my profile

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR0_AG3KQcdaCvt_MjvOCtsx4xHOIHDV vBddRbD1ZIoAaZ4Bvgc3Q

Dinarid
28-05-16, 18:49
Actually in terms of early 20th century anthropology, I think these noses were associated with the Irano-Afghan and Mediterranean subraces and later the Dinarics and Armenoids formed by intermarriage. They clearly originated from populations with generally long facial features. I believe also in the purest Nordic areas in Scandinavia (least "Alpine" admixture), we can see this nose type. It is possible that noses like mine were more common in ancient times in both Europe and the Middle East before the Central Asians invaded both regions. In any case I believe the most prominent noses in any humans are those of the Persians. Some Neanderthals' noses had very high bridges but very low roots. I think high nasal roots are a Scandinavian trait and a relatively recent phenomenon in terms of evolution.

Angela
28-05-16, 18:56
Oh brother. The ancient Greeks were Scandinavians? It's the other way around. In actuality, some Scandinavians are de-pigmented Mediterraneans.

It's all in Coon and a lot of other physical anthropologists. Don't believe anything you read on anthrofora; they don't have a clue what they're talking about.

Angela
28-05-16, 20:25
For those interested in these physical anthropology categories:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinaric_race

"Several theories were advanced regarding the genesis of the Dinaric race. Most researchers agreed that this race was autochthonous to its present habitat from the Neolithic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic) period. Both Günther and Coon claimed that the Bell-Beaker people (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture) of the European Bronze Age (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age) were at least partially Dinaric."

"Coon also argued, however, in The Origin of Races (1962), that the Dinaric and some other categories "are not races but simply the visible expressions of the genetic variability of the intermarrying groups to which they belong."He [Coon] referred to the creation of this distinctive phenotype (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenotype) from the mixing of earlier separate groups as "dinaricisation". In his view Dinarics were a specific type that arose from ancient mixes of theMediterranean race (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_race) and Alpine race (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_race)."

As to Scandinavians:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_race#Depigmentation_theory
"Coon's (1939) theory that the Nordic race was a depigmentated variation of the greater Mediterranean (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_race) racial stock was also supported by his mentor Earnest Albert Hooton (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earnest_Albert_Hooton) who in the same year published Twilight of Man, which notes: "The Nordic race is certainly a depigmented offshoot from the basic long-headed Mediterranean stock. It deserves separate racial classification only because its blond hair (ash or golden), its pure blue or grey eyes".[31] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_race#cite_note-31)[3 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_race#cite_note-Melville_Jacobs_1963._P._57-32)"

Of all the physical anthropologists, I think Coon's theories are the ones most in sync with the genetics discoveries of the past couple of years.

MOESAN
28-05-16, 23:20
That said, 'mediterranean' does not cover a type but several types with different histories. Here Coon would have been more precise (perhaps had he been more precise in technical works for his pairs? The book we red was a "vulgarization" one I think. Because genuine 'nordic' type refers to a specific type of 'mediterranean', relatively short bodied and long legged, without speaking of facial traits and others, numerous. the large audiance 'mediterranean' definition, a bit simplistic, group all very dark pigmented and (sub)dolichocephallic 'europoids' without distinction of body proportion or cranial and facial shapes, or of pillosity and so on...
I prefer not speak here of nasal shapes because the vocabulary cannot completely help us to describe the numerous varieties of noses, in which someones, sincerely described as very like, are supported by very different genes basis, someones homozygotic other heterozygotic. I posted my thoughts about that and I think now as I was not too clear myself by lack of words. Concerning 'europoids' I'm tempted to say: the more "typed" a bony trait, the more we can suspect a crossing.
Pity I cannot scan drawings or pictures (technical problem everytime)

MOESAN
28-05-16, 23:31
Coon did not evocate the fact that South Europe people among the ones called 'mediterraneans', roughly speaking, showed sometime the same features as 'brünnoid' descendants of Mesolithic, only gracilized (same basic crania profile, body proportions), very different from other pigmented southerners with very different features. His aim was to oppose ancient and new populations, what is simple, without evocate affinities and differences found both and concurrently in North AND in South Europe, apart the phenomenon of brachycephalization which DID NOT concern all Europoids in the same way, an other question, more recent in History for I know. Coon was surely right concerning supposed environmental and way of life effects (Souther climate + agriculture) but missed the question of remoter differences of origins.

Dinarid
29-05-16, 02:14
I never said that Greeks were Scandinavians- I despise Nordicism. Regardless I don't think early 20th century racial anthropology should be taken as the absolute truth. I don't know that Dinaric people are a mix of Mediterranean and Alpine, because they are both short compared to Nordic people, when "pure" Dinaric people from Herzegovina (mainly ethnic Croats like myself) are the tallest people in the world on average at 186cm for men.

Dinarid
29-05-16, 02:18
As a side note I think the most brachycephalic people in Europe are the Tosk Albanians, who are also very short, possibly the shortest people on the continent, soft features, tan skin, practically absent body hair, darker hair but lighter eyes (often blue) compared to Ghegs.

Angela
29-05-16, 02:30
I never said that Greeks were Scandinavians- I despise Nordicism. Regardless I don't think early 20th century racial anthropology should be taken as the absolute truth. I don't know that Dinaric people are a mix of Mediterranean and Alpine, because they are both short compared to Nordic people, when "pure" Dinaric people from Herzegovina (mainly ethnic Croats like myself) are the tallest people in the world on average at 186cm for men.

Totally agree with the bolded comments. Height is a complicated issue of its own. We have some threads on it. If I get a chance I'll try to find them for you. It's very interesting.

Welcome, by the way, if I didn't say it already. :)

LABERIA
29-05-16, 07:28
As a side note I think the most brachycephalic people in Europe are the Tosk Albanians, who are also very short, possibly the shortest people on the continent, soft features, tan skin, practically absent body hair, darker hair but lighter eyes (often blue) compared to Ghegs.

Where you have read this description of South Albanians? Can you quote a source pls?

Dinarid
29-05-16, 10:19
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/moa/AFL0168.0001.001?type=simple&rgn=full+text&q1=Tosks&submit=Go

I disagree with this book's association of Ghegs being "truly Albanian"; I think it may be the opposite; or quite simply the Albanians are a racial, cultural, and linguistic composite of the two. Some Ghegs seem to fit the description of the Dinaric race quite well, whereas others in Kosovo and on the border of Montenegro have elements of a very tall (but not as tall as Dinaric) brachycephalic race with short, broad faces and very robust composition known as "Borreby" mixed with true Dinaric strains. I would say Montenegrins from the highlands are a roughly even mix between the two races, and on the coast there is a "Mediterranean" element present. The eastern Ghegs are similar to Montenegrins but with more Dinaric and less Borreby, more Mediterranean, and possibly a little "Alpine". Tosks have more of an Alpine-Mediterranean mix, which is why they are so short.

The source for cephalic index:
http://www.gammathetaupsilon.org/the-geographical-bulletin/1970s/volume08/article1.pdf

I am cautious of any source that includes "Armenoid" elements in Europe, as these would be so small so as to be of no importance.

EDIT:
Other Tosk features like blue eyes, dark hair, tan skin, lack of body hair are from my own experience.

EDIT #2:
Never mind, I found a source for skin color and body type:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tosks
As far as darker hair and lighter eyes, I can't prove it.

Dinarid
29-05-16, 10:39
Totally agree with the bolded comments. Height is a complicated issue of its own. We have some threads on it. If I get a chance I'll try to find them for you. It's very interesting.

Welcome, by the way, if I didn't say it already. :)
Thanks!
Anyway, the last I will say on height is that I believe men's genes favor tallness, especially if inherited from a tall father, therefore the short population + tall population = medium-height population seems incredulous especially in terms of men. In ideal conditions with good nutrition most men continue to end up slightly taller than their fathers even with short mothers. I know that in Herzegovina it seems, and I have had friends observe this too, that sexual dimorphism in male vs. female height is exaggerated. Perhaps only our patrilineal heritage provides for tallness? That would explain Haplogroup I.

MOESAN
29-05-16, 11:31
I leave aside the question of height increase in new generations of today, it has very little link with father or mother's transmission I think, and more links with way of life complex. If specialists are puzzled I don't know how we can do better than them on this side.
Tosks were not dwarfs in Europe, they were of middle to under-middle height compared to other Europeans, rather middle in the 1930-50's (1m67 when France mean was 1m65/66). Coon said and I agree with him if I rely on pictures, that compared to most of Ghegs, Tosks were on the almost "pure" 'alpine' side and very close to South-Central French people. The 'mediterranean' component is relatively slight in them, as it's the case for Epirus Greeks.
Concerning Ghegs and Kossovars and Montenegro people I can't say: too less pictures. I suppose Coon 's descriptions I red were of some reality, concerning aspects.
Concerning 'dinaric' type origin, I'm still uncertain. But surely Coon referred to HIS general meaning of slender neolithic types when he wrote "mediterranean" as part in his 'dinaric' type cristallization, so possibly high statured dolichocephalic long-faced types, not the 'yemenite' type of 'mediterranean'.
Seemingly, the 'armenoid' type was an artificial construction, based upon some partly different crossings + artificial skulls deformations. In this crossing result, the part of 'indo-afghanlike' types was heavier than in other so called 'dinaric' types of Balkans. In fact, whatever the validity of their thoughts, other old anthropologists thought Balkans 'dinaric' type was a local evolution of previously dolichocehalic tall and ruggish types of 'brünnoid-capelloid' ascendance, or at least a crossing where this type was involved.
I have hard work to isolate in Balkans populations a majority of people who could be taken as typical 'dinarics' when it is easier to find 'nordic' or types of 'mediterranean' and even 'alpines' in some regions. So I think the thesis of Coon is not stupid at all, just the crossing could be even more complicated! (so numerous variants!!!). Even planoccipitaly seems various, concerning occiput angles. I think we have here a complex of types with a dominant trait: planoccipitally, linked to previous dispositions among one or most of the dolichocephalic elements (# 'cromagnoid' inherited forms with broad short faces, low supraorbital skull, high placed occiput, very low orbits: kind of anti-dinaric basis?).
Whatever the complication of the synthesis of this statistical created 'dinaric' type,, the fact it could imply some not too gracilized 'brünnoid' ancestor would make sense, when we see the strong Y-I2a imput in them, even if as other I think Y-haplo's in populations could become very disconnected from their auDNA ancient basis.
&: concerning height, it seems more crossed types could have higher stature than monoplyletic types.

Dinarid
29-05-16, 16:04
I believe that because genes in the Y chromosome control height, there is a strong relation with haplogroup. As for your theory that crossed types are often taller, I have heard other people suggest this before, but not as clearly. I still don't know that we can fully understand why someone of two ethnicities may be taller than the average from either.

As far as Dinaric origins, I see this theory as more plausible than some of the others. We don't typically have very long faces- I would say medium-long usually because of wide jaw- but it contrasts quite strongly with the short heads. I think they tried to link us to Armenoids, who are shorter, have longer faces and noses, and much darker. We do share some cultural traditions with Armenians though, and our flutes sound quite similar although this could be due to the Turks. As far as Armenoid crania being artificially deformed I doubt that's true, as most Armenians have that distinctive longfaced+shortheaded look only more pronounced than for us.

Dinarid
29-05-16, 16:06
As far as Tosks and their height, I think that this was back then when all of Europe was shorter, but I then they are just genetically shorter regardless of nutrition. I have been to Albania, and I saw a striking distance between north and south.

Dinarid
30-05-16, 00:27
Also, as a response to an earlier post, the droopy nose (depressed tip) seems to be predominantly Armenians and Ashkenazi Jews. "Dinaric" noses are usually sharper and more hawk-like whereas "Armenoid" noses are more like parrots.

LABERIA
30-05-16, 19:20
As far as Tosks and their height, I think that this was back then when all of Europe was shorter, but I then they are just genetically shorter regardless of nutrition. I have been to Albania, and I saw a striking distance between north and south.
I doubt that you have been in South Albania. The description that you make about Southern Albanians is wrong. The reason(s) why? I don`t know but try to be serious in what you post.

Angela
30-05-16, 19:31
Also, as a response to an earlier post, the droopy nose (depressed tip) seems to be predominantly Armenians and Ashkenazi Jews. "Dinaric" noses are usually sharper and more hawk-like whereas "Armenoid" noses are more like parrots.

There are all sorts of variations in human noses, but in terms of hawks and parrots I don't see much difference, Dinarid.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Harris's_Hawk_Parabuteo_unicinctus_(Temminck_1824) .jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-z7tpSmfJD_M/Vm5igydFFtI/AAAAAAAABgc/67Bhw_VzPkk/s1600/Nuri%2Bkepala%2Bhitam.jpg

Parrots are definitely prettier. Don't like them though, don't like any birds much...dirty, raucous creatures.

Sorry. Just amusing myself until this pouring rain stops. God, I hate rain. Love the internet, though. I can still remember having to use card catalogs at the library!

Dinarid
30-05-16, 23:44
I doubt that you have been in South Albania. The description that you make about Southern Albanians is wrong. The reason(s) why? I don`t know but try to be serious in what you post.
I was reporting what I saw and descriptions by anthropologists, and stated it as my opinion. I'm on a forum and not publishing a scientific research paper. Perhaps you could provide sources to prove me wrong?

Dinarid
30-05-16, 23:46
There are all sorts of variations in human noses, but in terms of hawks and parrots I don't see much difference, Dinarid.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Harris's_Hawk_Parabuteo_unicinctus_(Temminck_1824) .jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-z7tpSmfJD_M/Vm5igydFFtI/AAAAAAAABgc/67Bhw_VzPkk/s1600/Nuri%2Bkepala%2Bhitam.jpg

Parrots are definitely prettier. Don't like them though, don't like any birds much...dirty, raucous creatures.

Sorry. Just amusing myself until this pouring rain stops. God, I hate rain. Love the internet, though. I can still remember having to use card catalogs at the library!

I guess that was a bad comparison, perhaps the Armenoid nose could be said to resemble an elephant's trunk vs. Dinaric bird's beak.

Tomenable
04-06-16, 02:14
Queen Cleopatra VII Philopator of Egypt (of course she was of Greek descent):

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details/collection_image_gallery.aspx?partid=1&assetid=957704001&objectid=465561

http://www.britishmuseum.org/collectionimages/AN00397/AN00397408_001_l.jpg

http://www.britishmuseum.org/collectionimages/AN00957/AN00957704_001_l.jpg

http://www.britishmuseum.org/collectionimages/AN00957/AN00957703_001_l.jpg

Tomenable
04-06-16, 02:19
some Scandinavians are de-pigmented Mediterraneans.

There is no really such thing as "de-pigmented Mediterraneans".

They are Nordic, and they aren't most similar to Mediterraneans, but to Upper Paleolithic Europeans.

And de-pigmentation is not the only difference. Also stature, etc.

Angela
04-06-16, 02:42
There is no really such thing as "de-pigmented Mediterraneans".

They are Nordic, and they aren't most similar to Mediterraneans, but to Upper Paleolithic Europeans.

And de-pigmentation is not the only difference. Also stature, etc.

Whether there is or not, the second part of your statement is incorrect.

For one thing, please define your terms. What do you mean by UP Europeans? That's a specific time frame. We now know that the percentage of ancestry any Europeans carry from Gravettians or Aurignacians is tiny. If you're talking about the WHG, we've been over this height thing about them many times, and gone to the actual studies to document it. The WHG, if that's to whom you're referring, were about the same height as the Neolithic farmers in Europe. Robustness of bone structure doesn't mean height. According to the Matthiesen paper, the first real difference in height came with the steppe people, and then it was hardly large.

Obviously, we now know that the "Nordics" didn't get their fair hair and skin from the WHG either, although they had blue eyes. The Yamnaya Indo-European people certainly weren't fair; they were darker than any modern Europeans. The few EHG samples were fairer, but so were some MN people in central Europe. We've been over and over these things. No amount of revisionism is going to change the facts.

In terms of cranial structure and facial structure, modern "Nordics", or better, the definition of "Nordics" used by physical anthropoligists, does not at all match that of UP Europeans.

In terms of those physical anthropologists, the one who seems to have held up the best in terms of the genetic information is Carleton Coon, although even there I see some internal inconsistencies.

This is a summary of his opinion on the matter. Keep in mind that he is talking here, as were all the anthrpologists, not about autosomal percentages but about inherited phenotype.


Coon (1939)[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nordic_race&action=edit&section=5)]

"Carleton Coon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carleton_S._Coon) in his book of 1939 The Races of Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Races_of_Europe_(Coon)) subdivided the Nordic race into three main types, "Corded (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded)", "Danubian" and "Keltic", besides a "Neo-Danubian" type[23] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_race#cite_note-23) and a variety of Nordic types altered by Upper Palaeolithic or Alpine admixture.[24] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_race#cite_note-24)[25] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_race#cite_note-25)[26] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_race#cite_note-26)"Exotic Nordics" are morphologically Nordic types that occur in places distant from the northwestern European center of Nordic concentration.[27] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_race#cite_note-27)

Coon takes the Nordics to be a partially depigmented branch of the greater Mediterranean (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_race) racial stock. He suggests that the Nordic type emerged as a result of a mixture of "the Danubian Mediterranean strain with the later Corded element". Hence his two main Nordic types show Corded and Danubian predominance, respectively .[28] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_race#cite_note-28) The third "Keltic" or "Hallstatt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture)" type Coon takes to have emerged in the European Iron Age, in Central Europe, where it was subsequently mostly replaced, but "found a refuge in Sweden and in the eastern valleys of southern Norway."[29] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_race#cite_note-29)

Depigmentation theory[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nordic_race&action=edit&section=6)]

Coon's (1939) theory that the Nordic race was a depigmentated variation of the greater Mediterranean (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_race) racial stock was also supported by his mentor Earnest Albert Hooton (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earnest_Albert_Hooton) who in the same year published Twilight of Man, which notes: "The Nordic race is certainly a depigmented offshoot from the basic long-headed Mediterranean stock. It deserves separate racial classification only because its blond hair (ash or golden), its pure blue or grey eyes".[31] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_race#cite_note-31)[32] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_race#cite_note-Melville_Jacobs_1963._P._57-32) A 1990s study by Ulrich Mueller found that depigmentation of Nordic peoples around the Baltic Sea likely occurred due to vitamin D (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D) deficiency amongst peoples living there 10,000-30,000 years ago who had a lack of access to vitamin D foods such as dairy products at the time. Depigmentation allowed greater amount of ultraviolet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet) B light to be absorbed through the skin to synthesize to produce vitamin D.[33] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_race#cite_note-33)?"


Danubian Mediterranean people would be central European farmers, and Corded people would be 75% Yamnaya like, so about 35% Caucasus like with remaining 25% MN?

Keep in mind also he said that Nordics were a depigmented "variation" of Mediterraneans. Also keep in mind that not all people living in "Nordic" countries possess the "Nordic" phenotype.

Fire Haired14
04-06-16, 05:23
It's interesting Coon saw Nordic as a mix of Corded and Danbuian because that's the factual truth. I haven't ever been in Europe but I see lots of YugoSlavians and White Americans, and IMO pigmentation isn't the main diffidence in appearance. Pigmentation wise there isn't much of a difference between YugoSlavians and White Americans. But often, maybe usually, I can tell if someone is YugoSlavian or not. The ones with Blonde/Blue and fair skin look just as foreign to me.

Fire Haired14
04-06-16, 05:29
And de-pigmentation is not the only difference. Also stature, etc.

I don't really buy that. I know YugoSlavs are my only example, but whatever. They're very tall, taller than Northern European White Americans. Can't difference in height be explained by British Isles, Germany, and France being the most powerful nations in Europe in recent centuries? But then there's also countries like Finland and Lithuania who weren't prosperous, so maybe it is genetics(Steppe genes?).

The only people I notice who have noticeable abnormal body builds are Hispanics, East Asians, and South Asians. Near Easterners, African Americans, White Americans, and YugoSlavs aren't very differnt in body build. Men are usually like 5'10-6'0 and 180-220 ib.

Dinarid
04-06-16, 19:01
By nature of our sense of beauty, the most avarage face, or nose in this case is the most beautiful. Look at this one:

http://www.virtualffs.co.uk/nose%20images/noses-animation.gif

It is not even a real person but an image generated by averaging of many faces. It is not a very characteristic face, face to remember, yet is extremely balanced and beautiful. It is so average that, you would probably swear that you met person like this in your life.
As with everything on this face, the nose is an average European nose. Not too small or big, not going up or down, not curved in any way. Average but beautiful. Nose like this one could be found all over the Europe and won't tell us much about where it comes from.

However, any deviation from this average can do the trick. Some parts of Europe have noses which are bigger, smaller, going up or down, narrow or wide. These characteristics can point us to a specific region or Europe, or ethnicity with very high likelihood.

Helpful diagram.
http://www.harvard-wm.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/nose-anatomy-images.jpg


I'm not a phenotypical specialist by any stretch of imaginations, but I would like to present few of my observations, then discover about your observations, maybe find something new and intriguing.
Keep in mind that below pictures are not representations of general populations, especially if you don't like them, but just examples of characteristic noses that could be found there.

Let's have some fun!

I'm sorry for just having seen that post but that man does not look like the ideal standard of male beauty, speaking from a European perspective of course – and probably my Balkan ideas of beauty are different than yours, but still, I can't see most other people seeing that guy as beautiful. I think it is because he looks too much like the lady. He has an effeminate face, with soft and a little puffy cheeks, week soft nose with a medium bridge and low root, receding lower jaw. His chin looks like it goes back a little as well. I can't see much of the forehead but what I do see is that it looks soft, and I doubt he has any visible brow ridge. I understand that not everyone wants strong features to an extreme, especially if they do not look normal in combination with each other.

Angela
04-06-16, 21:42
I'm sorry for just having seen that post but that man does not look like the ideal standard of male beauty, speaking from a European perspective of course – and probably my Balkan ideas of beauty are different than yours, but still, I can't see most other people seeing that guy as beautiful. I think it is because he looks too much like the lady. He has an effeminate face, with soft and a little puffy cheeks, week soft nose with a medium bridge and low root, receding lower jaw. His chin looks like it goes back a little as well. I can't see much of the forehead but what I do see is that it looks soft, and I doubt he has any visible brow ridge. I understand that not everyone wants strong features to an extreme, especially if they do not look normal in combination with each other.

Hey, easy there, Dinarid, that man's nose isn't all that far from mine, other than that mine is higher rooted and a bit smaller! :grin:

Seriously, standards of beauty are quite subjective a lot of times, formed in part by region of birth and acculturation through media among other things. There are even studies that indicate women at different stages in their life prefer a more "feminine" versus more "masculine" look, although I take all those kinds of studies with huge doses of salt.

These men are all very good looking in my book, even if the first two are not really beautiful in a classic way; it's just that two have more "refined" features, I guess you could say. Of course, handsome is as handsome does in real life, something that is often forgotten.

https://amywilloughbyburle.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/viggo-mortensen-3379451jvqfh.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/83/6c/2b/836c2b8eb333a948668db8e7d388476a.jpg

http://bbook.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/blackbook.Image26824.BB86_SKARSG_image.jpg

http://s23.postimg.org/43zfkaj63/Luca_Calvani.jpg

Dinarid
04-06-16, 22:11
Well, different noses fit different features. Prominent noses that are narrow with high root and bridge are usually found on longer faces, and flat/wide/snub noses on broad round/square faces.

Tomenable
05-06-16, 12:17
the second part of your statement is incorrect.

Are you saying that Scandinavians are descended mostly from ENF, just like for example Sardinians? :smile:

Or are you claiming that CWC and/or Bell Beakers were of Mediterranean subrace? If you really base your statements on Coon, you will notice that Bell Beakers were as far from being Mediterranean as possible, according to Coon. And whatever ENF ancestry is there in Scandinavia, comes from TRB culture, which was descended in a very large part from acculturated hunters who learned farming, according to all anthropologists (and genetics seems to confirm this considering that I1 is a male lineage of natively European origin, and I1 was the main lineage of TRB in Scandinavia).


Obviously, we now know that the "Nordics" didn't get their fair hair and skin from the WHG either, although they had blue eyes. The Yamnaya Indo-European people certainly weren't fair; they were darker than any modern Europeans. The few EHG samples were fairer, but so were some MN people in central Europe. We've been over and over these things. No amount of revisionism is going to change the facts.

Scandinavians got their light pigmentation from the same source as Proto-Balto-Slavs did. Namely - from Corded Ware culture.

If you look at the spreadsheet by Fire Haired that I recommended before, you will notice that the CWC were light-pigmented.

As for Coon, he wasn't sure whether Corded Ware people were Mediterranean-like or Proto-Nordic, but he clearly wrote that the reason for his uncertainty was that he had no idea what was their pigmentation. But now we already know, that they were light-pigmented - so Nordic.

As you also know, CWC people had very little of EEF admixture, and therefore they were unrelated to Mediterranean people.

So we cannot say that Nordics are "de-pigmented Meds", because Nordics originated from CWC, and Meds from ENF.

They are not descended from each other, and they are not even descended from the same group ancestral to both.

========================

As for Bell Beakers - they were described by Coon as being brachycephalic, robust, tall, Dinaric-like people.

So there were hardly any similarities between short, gracile, dolichocephalic Meds and tall, robust, brachycephalic BBs.

And as for Nordics, apart from dolichocephaly, they share practically no any other similarities with Meds.

Tomenable
05-06-16, 13:15
By nature of our sense of beauty, the most avarage face, or nose in this case is the most beautiful.

You are mistaken here LeBrok. The most average faces or noses are NOT the most attractive ones. They are just attractive ones. They are these faces that most of us look at and rate as 7/10 - or so - on attractiveness scale.

On the other hand, what most of us usually rate as 9/10 and 10/10 on attractiveness scale are almost never the most average faces. These are in the vast majority of cases exceptional faces, which do not look "typical" at all.

Look it up, there are studies which confirm what I write.

Of course this is just statistical science, because on an individual level beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some person will rate attractiveness of a face as 6/10 while another person will rate the same face as 9/10.

Some strange-looking faces can even be considered very attractive by some, but very ugly by others.

I have an example of such a strange-looking face - Robert Kubica. It is known for a fact that he has a lot of young female fans who consider him handsome and attractive (including his beautiful fiance), but many other women see him as ugly.

Of course handsome / attractive are not exactly synonyms of beautiful - not in case of males at least.


I'm sorry for just having seen that post but that man does not look like the ideal standard of male beauty

He is beautiful but not really very handsome. He is a "pretty boy" type, his features are not very masculine.

That said, some women probably prefer such "pretty boys" while others like more masculine, "rugged" faces.

Of course it is not even a real person's face but just a composite image.


Seriously, standards of beauty are quite subjective a lot of times, formed in part by region of birth and acculturation through media among other things. There are even studies that indicate women at different stages in their life prefer a more "feminine" versus more "masculine" look, although I take all those kinds of studies with huge doses of salt.

I agree with you on this Angela.

Tomenable
05-06-16, 13:41
What do you mean by UP Europeans? That's a specific time frame. We now know that the percentage of ancestry any Europeans carry from Gravettians or Aurignacians is tiny. If you're talking about the WHG, we've been over this height thing about them many times, and gone to the actual studies to document it. The WHG, if that's to whom you're referring, were about the same height as the Neolithic farmers in Europe.

I am talking about Mesolithic EHG / SHG, and about their Upper Paleolithic ancestors. Not about WHG.

I documented in another thread, that EHG males were on average over 10 cm taller than WHG males.


But then there's also countries like Finland and Lithuania who weren't prosperous

Neither were Norway or Sweden prosperous during Late Medieval and Early Modern Eras.

But height is about nutrition, not "prosperity" in general. You can be "backward" and still well-nourished.

Eating gold or dollars if you can't buy decent food for them will not make you healthier, that's for sure.

Of course nutrition is just one aspect of height differences, another one being genetics.

Angela
05-06-16, 16:34
Tomenable:

Well, it's good to know the groups to which you were referring. Obviously, UP Europeans was indeed incorrect, as I stated.

As for the SHG there is to my knowledge no indication so far that modern Europeans owe much of their ancestry to them, so let's stick to the EHG. Besides, given that the SHG carried EDAR traits, their similarity to modern "Nordics" is questionable on that score at least.

So, to continue with the EHG. Could you please provide the citation for the paper where the EHG measure 10 cm higher than the WHG? I'm sorry, but I can't seem to find it.

Of course, while you're at it, a citation giving their cranial and facial metrics would be important, so they could be compared to those of modern Scandinavians of the "Nordic" type.

Also, measurements as to the robusticity of their skeletal structure would be important. As I pointed out, the WHG had very robust frames, but weren't all that tall. You can also have tall people with rather gracile frames.

Without that kind of hard data, I'm afraid none of this is very "scientific".

As for Coon, I'll repeat, his contention that the "Nordics", not all Scandinavians, of course, are the product of MN farmers and Corded Ware seems rather prescient given what we now know from genetics. Given that, and the fact that the EHG portion of the combined ancestry of those two groups is at the most about 25%, any statement that the "Nordics" are closest to the EHG seems rather far removed from reality.

On a lighter note, there are people in any ethnic group whom most of us would concede are "beautiful", even if they don't equally "draw to the heart", or even draw forth lust, to be blunt. There are also people who while not technically beautiful, are very sexy and attractive. I looked up your Mr. Kubica. No, he's not beautiful, but he does have a very charming face. I like men who look like that. Perhaps, though, I like him because he looks rather Italian to me. :) Anyway, in addition to his charming face, I'm sure his fame and money don't hurt!
http://citroen.com.my/newsletter/img/newsletter/2014/11/Robert-Kubica-photo.jpg

Tomenable
05-06-16, 17:59
Angela,


So, to continue with the EHG. Could you please provide the citation for the paper where the EHG measure 10 cm higher than the WHG? I'm sorry, but I can't seem to find it.

Sure. :wink:

It is in Formicola & Giannecchini, "Evolutionary trends of stature in Upper Paleolithic & Mesolithic Europe", 1999:

Abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10074386

The average height of the EHG (n=75 males) was 173.2 cm, while that of the WHG (n=96 males) was 163.1 cm.

It is not in the Abstract, it seems, but I read the paper and it is there. I can't find the link to full paper now.

So just as I wrote, the EHG were on average over 10 cm taller than the WHG.


Of course, while you're at it, a citation giving their cranial and facial metrics would be important, so they could be compared to those of modern Scandinavians of the "Nordic" type.

Also, measurements as to the robusticity of their skeletal structure would be important. As I pointed out, the WHG had very robust frames, but weren't all that tall. You can also have tall people with rather gracile frames.

The EHG often had dolichocephalic and leptomorphic, Nordic-looking skulls.

For example a 10,800 year old skull from Peschanitsa near Lake Ladoga (in Lyubytinskiy Rayon of Novgorod Oblast) and a 10,300 year old skull from Popovo near Lake Onega (in Arkhangelsk Oblast) were described as "Early Nordic" or "Proto-Nordic" types.

Peschanitsa skull is a "gracile Nordic" and Popovo skull is a "robust Nordic".

Here are some videos showing EHG skulls (there are 3 videos, so I need 3 posts):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIE6Y7s1AOw

Tomenable
05-06-16, 18:01
BTW - in this video not all skulls are from the Mesolithic period, some are from later times:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWgZkS_XyMQ

Tomenable
05-06-16, 18:02
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrB-22AGwuo

Dinarid
05-06-16, 21:41
He is beautiful but not really very handsome. He is a "pretty boy" type, his features are not very masculine.

That said, some women probably prefer such "pretty boys" while others like more masculine, "rugged" faces.

Of course it is not even a real person's face but just a composite image.



I agree with you on this Angela.

Even that I won't give him. He just has weak features that seem to have no flaws but are pretty unremarkable.

Dinarid
05-06-16, 21:45
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrB-22AGwuo
LOL what a crock of sh*t. This person "RealSarmatian" is a Nordicist a**hole who glamorizes the "Nordic" people and their look.

Tomenable
05-06-16, 22:02
a Nordicist a**hole who glamorizes the "Nordic" people and their look.

And ??? So what ??? Many other people glamorize Mediterraneans, or other groups.

Is glamorizing Nordic people worse than glamorizing any other people - and why so?

Even in this thread I can see that various people have various biases and prejudices.

Why do South Europeans so much "wannabe" ancestors of Nordic people? Hmm? :thinking:

Fire Haired14
05-06-16, 22:06
@Tomenable,

The height thing looks legitimate. An funnt thing is Native South Americans are some of the shortest people you'll ever see, like literally 5ft/152cm on average. Then Native North Americans and EHG were tall or normal in our eyes. It shows how local evolution can be more important than distant shared ancestry(ANE). So it is believable EHG was much taller than WHG despite being so related.

@Angela,

EHG contribution is small but you have to consider the possibility in someway it made a big impact on phenotype. It's possible. I don't think it did. Tomenable, I think you're trying too hard to make EHG the origin of distinct European looks. Usually one white person and another look nothing like the other. If we assume Distinct Stone age meta-populations had somewhat uniform faces(like East Asians do today), then European have a mixture of differnt faces. Then there was also variation within those meta-population and evolution after admixture.


@Tomebable,

Corded Ware had pigmentation most like Spanish. We need more DNA samples from Corded Ware and others to know now for sure though. The only Late Neolithic/Bronze age group who had Nordic pigmentation were Timber Grave/Sintashta/Andronovo. You got to check over my spreadsheets, you've made false claims several times. I list a link to modern results as well so you can compare.

Tomenable
05-06-16, 22:11
the "Nordic" people and their look.

One of my female cousins has an East Nordic phenotype and she is naturally blonde:

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/rg-eastnordic.htm

My phenotype is rather closer to Dinaric, I have a nose like Emperor Constantine, LOL.

Various members of my family differ considerably in phenotypes and in pigmentation.

So I don't really think that phenotype correlates very well with autosomal ancestry.

My family also has all hair colours. My mom is naturally blonde like that cousin.

One of my cousins is a natural redhead. My dad is black-haired. And so on.

Dinarid
05-06-16, 22:22
And ??? So what ??? Many other people glamorize Mediterraneans, or other groups.

Is glamorizing Nordic people worse than glamorizing other people - and why so ???

Even in this thread I can see that various people have various biases and prejudices.

Why do South Europeans so much "wannabe" ancestors of Nordic people? Hmm? :thinking:

Nordicism has been a plague on not only Europe, but much of humanity within the European sphere of influence for centuries. Nordic features are promoted as ideal, and people with other looks are considered unattractive. Nordicist mythology is passed as legitimate anthropology, which I find infuriating. In ancient times, Nordic people were nothing more than desolate savages. They have weak features, although occasionally some have aquiline noses (many Vikings probably did) these looked even more weird with the weak little elongated chins and feeble jaws. Blond hair and blue eyes = yet more effeminate features. Many times they have these bulging effeminate foreheads as well. Dinaric men are far better looking even by common European standards. Dinaric men have big, masculine noses, long but full faces (wide jaws), strong brow ridges, prominent chins, and are also much taller than Nordic men. I'm not saying I'm all of these things, personally I find myself quite unattractive in many ways, and I really hate the concept of a master race but if we have to compare…:smile:

Tomenable
05-06-16, 22:22
IMO the term "people of colour" should apply to Europeans, not to Africans etc.

After all, Europeans have the greatest diversity of hair colours and of eye colours.

Dinarid
05-06-16, 22:24
One of my female cousins has an East Nordic phenotype and she is naturally blonde:

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/rg-eastnordic.htm

My phenotype is rather closer to Dinaric, I have a nose like Emperor Constantine, LOL.

Various members of my family differ considerably in phenotypes and in pigmentation.

So I don't really think that phenotype correlates very well with autosomal ancestry.

My family also has all hair colours. My mom is naturally blonde like that cousin.

One of my cousins is a natural redhead. My dad is black-haired. And so on.

It is definitely erroneous to suggest that phenotypes correspond perfectly with DNA like some armchair anthropologists on various internet forums, but there is generally a correlation between ancestry and certain features. It could be that your family is quite mixed, and thus recessive traits will pop up quite unexpectedly. In my family on the other hand, there is a very consistent look, because we are all Herzegovinian Croats.

Tomenable
05-06-16, 22:24
Nordicism has been a plague on not only Europe, but much of humanity

This is simply rubbish.

How many colonies did Nordic countries have? How many genocides did they commit?

BTW - Germany is not a Nordic country. Nazi Germany was at best "wannabe Nordic".

Spain, Italy, Portugal, France, Belgium, etc. - they killed and oppressed much more people.

Who wiped out Native Americans ??? Were those Norwegians, Swedes, or maybe Estonians?

Denmark and Norway fell victim to Nazi invasion and occupation during WW2.

Tomenable
05-06-16, 22:27
Dinaric men are far better looking even by common European standards.

Most of them (or us, since I'm kind of Dinaric I think) are good looking, I agree. :smile:

But please stop your Anti-Nordic hatred, or how else to call it. There is no basis for this.

We are all Europeans with a lot of cultural & ethnic commonalities. Let's preserve it.

Tomenable
05-06-16, 22:37
personally I find myself quite unattractive in many ways

You shouldn't, let the women judge. Dinaric features are masculine and considered attractive by many women.


Blond hair and blue eyes = yet more effeminate features.

These aren't effeminate features at all. Also anthropological type is one thing, and pigmentation is another.

You can be Nordic and black-haired. You can also be Dinaric and blue-eyed with dark blonde hair.


and are also much taller than Nordic men.

That's not true. They are of about the same stature, not really taller. How tall are you?

Tomenable
05-06-16, 22:44
It could be that your family is quite mixed, and thus recessive traits will pop up quite unexpectedly.
In my family on the other hand, there is a very consistent look, because we are all Herzegovinian Croats.And? In my family we are all ethnically Polish. It's just that Northern Europeans are the true "people of colour".

Genes for blonde or red or brown hair not always express themselves due to being recessive, but they are there.

Blonde hair and red hair are recessive traits. One of my cousins is a redhead, and her sister has very black hair.


In ancient times, Nordic people were nothing more than desolate savages.

Sorry, but this is rubbish again. It is a myth that Northern Europeans were unwashed savages until recently:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymGsUp5xiMk

Dinarid
05-06-16, 22:52
You shouldn't, let the women judge. Dinaric features are masculine and considered attractive by many women.



These aren't effeminate features at all. Also anthropological type is one thing, and pigmentation is another.

You can be Nordic and black-haired. You can also be Dinaric and blue-eyed with dark blonde hair.



That's not true. They are of about the same stature, not really taller. How tall are you?

I'm 192 cm and young (I won't say my age here) and have gotten taller recently so this may change. And yes, studies have shown that we are taller. We in Herzegovina are usually 186cm on average for males but in some villages it's more like 188-189, Sweden (arguably the most "Nordic" country) is more like 183-184cm. I think it also varies by region.

Dinarid
05-06-16, 22:54
And? In my family we are all ethnically Polish. It's just that we are these "people of colour".

Genes for blonde or red or brown hair not always express themselves, but they are there.

Blonde hair and red hair are recessive traits. One of my cousins is a redhead, and her sister has very black hair.



Poland has had more genetic admixture than the mountains of Herzegovina because of the geography.

Tomenable
05-06-16, 23:01
and I really hate the concept of a master race

It's not about hating or liking. This concept is simply not true.

Check my thread on the Apricity, which is related to this issue:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?216544-Intelligence-increasing-alleles-among-9-MENA-and-12-Euro-ethnic-groups&p=4468182&viewfull=1#post4468182


Poland has had more genetic admixture than the mountains of Herzegovina because of the geography.

Yes but Poles were admixed mostly by darker-pigmented populations.

For example, many Poles have some Armenian or some Jewish ancestry.

So admixture is not the reason why many people in my family have light hair.

If anything, it may be one of reasons why not all of my family has light hair.

===========

About Armenians in Poland (we have always been getting along very well):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON-MJw-7xtI

Dinarid
05-06-16, 23:33
It's not about hating or liking. This concept is simply not true.

Check my thread on the Apricity, which is related to this issue:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?216544-Intelligence-increasing-alleles-among-9-MENA-and-12-Euro-ethnic-groups&p=4468182&viewfull=1#post4468182



Yes but Poles were admixed mostly by darker-pigmented populations.

For example, many Poles have some Armenian or some Jewish ancestry.

So admixture is not the reason why many people in my family have light hair.

If anything, it may be one of reasons why not all of my family has light hair.

===========

About Armenians in Poland (we have always been getting along very well):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON-MJw-7xtI

I always liked Armenians and Jews, and of course our Slavic brethren the Polacy :) Really I wouldn't say I dislike any ethnicity but those are some of the ones I admire most.

On a side note Armenians and Ashkenazi Jews (both "Armenoid" peoples along with Assyrians) have similar features to us although they couldn't exactly pass in the Balkans. The head shape is similar but they have much longer faces with less prominent chins, and more smoothed but also more sloping foreheads, as well as longer but smoother noses, and of course darker skin (except for the Ashkenazi Jews, and also Assyrians can be fairer than Armenians).

Do you think you have some Armenian or Ashkenazi?

Silesian
05-06-16, 23:42
LOL what a crock of sh*t. This person "RealSarmatian" is a Nordicist a**hole who glamorizes the "Nordic" people and their look.

I'm not a Nordicist- From Poland/Germany/Czech depending on when borders changed.
However genetically I'm related to these people in the video below, and could fit in quite easy among them, phenotype- looks wise. I would also be classed as dinarid. My wife has a small convex nose, none of my sons came out as dinarid[the closest to me in appearance is my oldest 193cm]. My youngest has his mother's convex nose. So after 1 generation that trait is gone. It just depends on the way the genes are distributed.
I remember disagreeing with a poster one time. Beauty is subjective. Anyway, his idea of beauty was the small convex nose and Nordic phenotype. I commented that it reminded me of FAS profile[it did not really go down to well] , now in hindsight I should have tempered my post a little better.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrB-22AGwuo

Dinarid
05-06-16, 23:53
I'm not a Nordicist- From Poland/Germany/Czech depending on when borders changed.
However genetically I'm related to these people in the video below, and could fit in quite easy among them, phenotype- looks wise. I would also be classed as dinarid. My wife has a small convex nose, none of my sons came out as dinarid[the closest to me in appearance is my oldest 193cm]. My youngest has his mother's convex nose. So after 1 generation that trait is gone. It just depends on the way the genes are distributed.
I remember disagreeing with a poster one time. Beauty is subjective. Anyway, his idea of beauty was the small convex nose and Nordic phenotype. I commented that it reminded me of FAS profile[it did not really go down to well] , now in hindsight I should have tempered my post a little better.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrB-22AGwuo

"Small convex nose" - ? I thought of convex noses as large beaks like mine, maybe it's my English but I always thought "concave" = inward curve; "convex" = outward.

Silesian
06-06-16, 00:01
"Small convex nose" - ? I thought of convex noses as large beaks like mine, maybe it's my English but I always thought "concave" = inward curve; "convex" = outward.
My mistake.

Angela
06-06-16, 02:29
Perhaps if we could get back to at least "pseudo-science".

Yes, it would be nice to see that measurement for height actually written down. The abstract also doesn't cite the specific "eastern Mesolithic samples" they are measuring.

As for your videos, Tomenable, I would say that I am not persuaded by drawings done by some amateurs whose qualifications cannot be checked, or by video makers named the "real Sarmatian". :) Any Nordicist kook unwilling to accept the genetic data published in the last five years can draw or post or make any idiotic video he chooses, or he can go post on theapricity or forum biodiversity. That doesn't mean I have to give them any credence. This isn't the site for that kind of "evidence".

Also, maybe we should stick to your actual point. You claim that the "Nordic" phenotype is closest to that of the EHG. We have three samples of that group, yes? It would seem to me that to prove your point you would need to provide the cranial and facial measurements for these samples, and show us that they are closer to those of classic modern or 19th century "Nordics" than are those, say, just as an example, of Atlanto-Meds.

Also, let's stick to the definitions of professional physical anthropologists, shall we, even if they're not totally consistent, rather than to some skin heads on stormfront or other sites like the apricity or forum biodiversity who seem to make these things up as they go along? Just to visualize what we're talking about, these are supposedly "Nordics".
http://www.humanbiologicaldiversity.com/Photos/Coon%20Plate%2027.jpg



This is an anthropologist plate labeled British "Mediterranean".
http://www.geocities.ws/racial_reality/p25f1.jpg

This is labeled an Italian Atlanto-Med.
http://www.ems.net76.net/index_files/image7561.jpg

Please compare him with plate one of the "Nordics".

This plate is labeled "gracile med". Now, other than nose shape and pigmentation, how exactly is he so different from the Atlanto Med Italian or that first Finnish Nordic?
7766


What, also, do either of these groups have to do with what actual professional anthropologists call the "UP survivors" in Europe?
http://www.humanbiologicaldiversity.com/Photos/Coon%20Plate%204.jpg

It would be interesting to see how the metrics of this last group actually compare to the EHG ones once you have them.

You have also, I see, failed to explain how "Nordics", with only at the most 25% EHG ancestry, can draw their phenotype totally from that group.

@Fire-haired,
Sorry, I don't find that persuasive. I'm not aware of any admixed group which wound up looking exactly like a minority ancestry on the order of 20% or so, no matter how much assortative mating went on. The Karelia sample is heavily ANE, and we know what heavily ANE people look like, and "refined" features is not the description I'd use. We know the SHG had EDAR traits. From what I've been reading,there was also a "Han" shift or leaning in these people. Genetiker is now saying even some of those pigmentation calls are iffy. Sorry, none of that fits with the "Nordic" phenotype.

And now, my shows are on....

Dinarid
06-06-16, 03:29
Figure 3 from the first picture could almost pass in Croatia.

Fire Haired14
06-06-16, 05:30
Nordicism has been a plague on not only Europe, but much of humanity within the European sphere of influence for centuries. Nordic features are promoted as ideal, and people with other looks are considered unattractive. Nordicist mythology is passed as legitimate anthropology, which I find infuriating. In ancient times, Nordic people were nothing more than desolate savages.

You go from taking down mainstream accepted Nordicism which is good, to spewing racist anti-Nordicism which just trading one bad for another. "Nordics"(No single ethnic group or cultural sphere. So outside of phenotype and genetics it means nothing.) were not desolate savages in "ancient times"(Pre-Medieval).

People in the Balkans in 0 AD weren't any better off than people in Northern Europe. People in Northern Europe were apart of the same advances in civilization everyone else was. Sure compared to Greeks and some people in Italy(Etruscans, Romans) they were primitive, but those are two out of many people who lived in Southern Europe. And after the Roman empire fell apart they were equal matches to "Southern Europe"(Not a real thing. Many differnt nations. Unless you have a world map you wouldn't have a concept of it at all).


They have weak features, although occasionally some have aquiline noses (many Vikings probably did) these looked even more weird with the weak little elongated chins and feeble jaws. Blond hair and blue eyes = yet more effeminate features.

LOL man. Not true at all. People confuse Americans and Northern European countries(France, UK, Scandinavai) being rich and having easy lives in the last 60 years, with them being non-masculine and weak. Look at the statistics. Size wise, height and weight, no one else in the world is really any bigger. I've seen people from all over the world. At sports games, for whatever reason, 90%+ of the people are Northern European Americans. I feel like I'm surrounded by giants when I go. I've also seen plenty of Bosnains. Bosnians I'd say are about the same size, just there are more very tall Bosnians. I definitely don't think Bosnaisn are any bigger.


Blond hair and blue eyes = yet more effeminate features./QUOTE]

While I agree Blonde hair is more colorful and therefore girls like to have it more, it doesn't make guys look more effeminate IMO. I don't know why girls are so obsessed with it. It could have to do with accepted Nordicism in our society(assumption Blonde hair is more attractive).

[QUOTE=Dinarid;481074] Many times they have these bulging effeminate foreheads as well. Dinaric men are far better looking even by common European standards. Dinaric men have big, masculine noses, long but full faces (wide jaws), strong brow ridges, prominent chins, and are also much taller than Nordic men. I'm not saying I'm all of these things, personally I find myself quite unattractive in many ways, and I really hate the concept of a master race but if we have to compare…:smile:

Nah man I don't by that. That's all pseudo-science.

Dinarid
06-06-16, 05:46
You go from taking down mainstream accepted Nordicism which is good, to spewing racist anti-Nordicism which just trading one bad for another. "Nordics"(No single ethnic group or cultural sphere. So outside of phenotype and genetics it means nothing.) were not desolate savages in "ancient times"(Pre-Medieval).

People in the Balkans in 0 AD weren't any better off than people in Northern Europe. People in Northern Europe were apart of the same advances in civilization everyone else was. Sure compared to Greeks and some people in Italy(Etruscans, Romans) they were primitive, but those are two out of many people who lived in Southern Europe. And after the Roman empire fell apart they were equal matches to "Southern Europe"(Not a real thing. Many differnt nations. Unless you have a world map you wouldn't have a concept of it at all).



LOL man. Not true at all. People confuse Americans and Northern European countries(France, UK, Scandinavai) being rich and having easy lives in the last 60 years, with them being non-masculine and weak. Look at the statistics. Size wise, height and weight, no one else in the world is really any bigger. I've seen people from all over the world. At sports games, for whatever reason, 90%+ of the people are Northern European Americans. I feel like I'm surrounded by giants when I go. I've also seen plenty of Bosnains. Bosnians I'd say are about the same size, just there are more very tall Bosnians. I definitely don't think Bosnaisn are any bigger.


Blond hair and blue eyes = yet more effeminate features.

While I agree Blonde hair is more colorful and therefore girls like to have it more, it doesn't make guys look more effeminate IMO. I don't know why girls are so obsessed with it. It could have to do with accepted Nordicism in our society(assumption Blonde hair is more attractive).



Nah man I don't by that. That's all pseudo-science.

No, pseudo-science is classifying people into very strict "subraces" and using these to determine someone's ancestry. Using some terms to describe certain features is not, because in many cases there are clearly certain features that are more common among certain populations. Are you seriously going to deny that people from the Balkans tend to have more prominent noses, for example? Writing observations off as "pseudo-science" is no better than taking the writings of anthropologists from a century ago as the word of God, which some here do.

Fire Haired14
06-06-16, 08:04
@Dinarid,

Kah Koh see:). Only Bosnian I know. Once I saw you use Greek alphabet I gave on learning it. Congrats on learning English I respect that.


No, pseudo-science is classifying people into very strict "subraces" and using these to determine someone's ancestry. Using some terms to describe certain features is not, because in many cases there are clearly certain features that are more common among certain populations. Are you seriously going to deny that people from the Balkans tend to have more prominent noses, for example? Writing observations off as "pseudo-science" is no better than taking the writings of anthropologists from a century ago as the word of God, which some here do.

Ok you're right. There's legitimacy to it. I just dis agree with where you were going with that, that Nordic features are worse and weaker. It depends on your opinion which feature is better. If Nordics have rubber jaws you can say their features are weaker, but does a differnt shaped face really make it stronger or weaker?

Tomenable
06-06-16, 09:17
Angela,

When it comes to your post #159:

Figure 3 from the 2nd plate was judged to be a good example of a Nordic man by Norwegian Alette Schreiner:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alette_Schreiner

"Fig. 27 The Nordic race.
When after their survey of recruits, Günther requested a portrait of a purebred Nordic man, neither Schreiner nor Bryn could help him. In 1929, however, Schreiner chose this man from the Setesdal valley":

Source: http://www.openbookpublishers.com/htmlreader/978-1-909254-54-1/Master-Race-11.xhtml

But Carleton S. Coon considered this guy as a Trønder (mixed Nordic-Brünn) type, rather than a "purebred".

http://www.openbookpublishers.com/htmlreader/978-1-909254-54-1/image/17.jpg

His measurements and pigmentation are here - he is Fig 3.:

http://www.friendsofsabbath.org/Further_Research/e-books/Races%20of%20Europe%20-%20C%20Coon/bilder/Plate%204.jpg

==================================

Angela wanted me to post skulls of those 3 EHG men that we have aDNA samples from.

I've found only one of them so far and he died as a boy (probably a young teenager), which means that his adult features were still not fully developed, so I'm not sure if we can classify him. But he was dolichocephalic.

He is one of 2 from Karelia, his Y-DNA was R1a and his mtDNA C1g or C1f.

If I recall correctly, apart from HG and ANE, he also had a bit of East Asian admixture.

Also his mtDNA haplogroup suggests, that he could be a mixed individual.

His skull has mostly Nordic features, but they seem to be mixed with something else.

He had moderate prognathism, which could be a malformation or due to his ancestry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prognathism


Prognathism in humans can be due to normal variation among phenotypes. In human populations where prognathism is not the norm, it may be a malformation, the result of injury, a disease state or a hereditary condition. Prognathism is considered a disorder only if it affects mastication, speech or social function as a byproduct of severely affected aesthetics of the face.

This is him:

MAE RAS collection number: 5773-74 Grave number: 142 (sample UzOO74) (https://www.oagr.org.au/source/I0061/)

http://s018.radikal.ru/i506/1502/48/187c9ae5ef0b.png

Tomenable
06-06-16, 10:26
As for Nordic type men having "effeminate" appearance - that's not really true, at least not for all of them.

Some examples (Nordic and related types):

/ Alexander Godunov / Max von Sydow / Wayne Gretzky / Rutger Hauer / Agnar Mykle / Kevin Costner /

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/Alexander-Godunov.JPGhttp://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/maxvonnew.jpghttp://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/waynegretzky.jpghttp://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/rutgerhauer.jpghttp://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/tr-agnar.jpghttp://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/kevincostner.jpg

Of course you can also find many who do look effeminate. But these don't. And North Europe also has Cro-Magnid related types who usually don't look effeminate (actually Rutger Hauer with his wide face could pass as a CM as well, he is on the borderline between CM and Nordic). South Europe doesn't have many CM looking people: it is WHG stock.

Mediterranean men often do look "effeminate" as well. But I agree that Dinaric men usually don't.

Dinarid
06-06-16, 21:02
@Dinarid,

Kah Koh see:). Only Bosnian I know. Once I saw you use Greek alphabet I gave on learning it. Congrats on learning English I respect that.



Ok you're right. There's legitimacy to it. I just dis agree with where you were going with that, that Nordic features are worse and weaker. It depends on your opinion which feature is better. If Nordics have rubber jaws you can say their features are weaker, but does a differnt shaped face really make it stronger or weaker?

Dobro sam, kako si ti?
I'm a Herzegovinian Croat, and our land is under occupation by the illegitimate Islamic government, so I don't feel very Bosnian.

As far as masculinity and face shape, some view broad faces as masculine; whereas others view long faces are more masculine. It is generally accepted that a man's face is usually "bigger" than a women's: both longer and wider. Square jaws are associated with broad faces, although in the Balkans we have long-ish faces but with full jaws (although some of us can have square faces). Same for short, broad foreheads which we also have. On the other hand, prominent (beak) noses are associated with long faces (they look really abnormal on broad faces I might add).

Dinarid
06-06-16, 21:06
Angela,

"Fig. 27 The Nordic race.
When after their survey of recruits, Günther requested a portrait of a purebred Nordic man, neither Schreiner nor Bryn could help him. In 1929, however, Schreiner chose this man from the Setesdal valley":

Source: http://www.openbookpublishers.com/htmlreader/978-1-909254-54-1/Master-Race-11.xhtml

But Carleton S. Coon considered this guy as a Trønder (mixed Nordic-Brünn) type, rather than a "purebred".

http://www.openbookpublishers.com/htmlreader/978-1-909254-54-1/image/17.jpg

That's not even Nordic at all. The face isn't long enough, the cheekbones are too high (Nordic people are supposed to have flat cheekbones), and the head is much too short. Whatever type he would be classified as, it wouldn't be Nordic.

Dinarid
06-06-16, 21:11
As for Nordic type men having "effeminate" appearance - that's not really true, at least not for all of them.

Some examples (Nordic and related types):

/ Alexander Godunov / Max von Sydow / Wayne Gretzky / Rutger Hauer / Agnar Mykle / Kevin Costner /

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/Alexander-Godunov.JPGhttp://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/maxvonnew.jpghttp://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/waynegretzky.jpghttp://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/rutgerhauer.jpghttp://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/tr-agnar.jpghttp://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/kevincostner.jpg

Of course you can also find many who do look effeminate. But these don't. And North Europe also has Cro-Magnid related types who usually don't look effeminate (actually Rutger Hauer with his wide face could pass as a CM as well, he is on the borderline between CM and Nordic). South Europe doesn't have many CM looking people: it is WHG stock.

Mediterranean men often do look "effeminate" as well. But I agree that Dinaric men usually don't.
None of those men strike me as very masculine except for perhaps Alexander Godunov. Max von Sydow has "strong" features; Kevin Costner a little. Agnar Mykle doesn't even look Nordic in the first place.

Tomenable
06-06-16, 22:04
except for perhaps Alexander Godunov.

^ And of all of them, Godunov is the closest to the "original" Nordic type.

Actually, Godunov and von Sydow are both the closest.

Godunov is a sub-type of Nordic that was quite typical of Corded Ware culture.

Godunov is East-Nordic, and von Sydow Scando-Nordic.


Kevin Costner a little.

He is a Celtic-Nordic sub-type.

Most of Ancient Celts were Non-Nordic, but they did have people of Nordic type too.

Tomenable
06-06-16, 22:14
Whatever type he would be classified as, it wouldn't be Nordic.

It wouldn't be "pure" Nordic, but Nordic-related. "Pure" Nordic types are really rare, even in Scandinavia. But it all depends on criteria and definitions. Some anthropologists had broader and less restrictive definitions of what counts as Nordic than others.

==================

Now this is probably what you consider as "effeminate" Nordic type - Piotr Kaszubski (he is from Poland):

http://www.gala.pl/upload/galleries/113/piotr-kaszubki-jest-scigany-listem-113858_l.jpg

Blonde is his natural hair colour - but here a dark-haired version:

http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/d7/d8/cd/z13490391Q,Mlody-milioner-Piotr-Kaszubski-podczas-debaty-o-bi.jpg

I'm not sure what is his ancestry, but his surname translates as Peter Kashubian:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashubians#Genetics

Donald Tusk is also Kashubian, but he looks like mixed West Baltid + East Nordic.

West Baltid is one of Cro-Magnid descended types.

http://s14.postimg.org/v1eir4j4h/Tusk.png

ElHorsto
06-06-16, 23:54
As for Nordic type men having "effeminate" appearance - that's not really true, at least not for all of them.

Some examples (Nordic and related types):

/ Alexander Godunov / Max von Sydow / Wayne Gretzky / Rutger Hauer / Agnar Mykle / Kevin Costner /

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/Alexander-Godunov.JPGhttp://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/maxvonnew.jpghttp://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/waynegretzky.jpghttp://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/rutgerhauer.jpghttp://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/tr-agnar.jpghttp://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/kevincostner.jpg

Of course you can also find many who do look effeminate. But these don't. And North Europe also has Cro-Magnid related types who usually don't look effeminate (actually Rutger Hauer with his wide face could pass as a CM as well, he is on the borderline between CM and Nordic). South Europe doesn't have many CM looking people: it is WHG stock.

Mediterranean men often do look "effeminate" as well. But I agree that Dinaric men usually don't.

Let me join the fun of pseudo-science :) : Only the first two are undoubtly "nordid". They are both of the same corded subtype, imho. Hugh Laurie would be also a masculine looking "corded" example, although he has a slight med tendency. About the others I'm not so sure.

Dinarid
07-06-16, 00:01
It wouldn't be "pure" Nordic, but Nordic-related. "Pure" Nordic types are really rare, even in Scandinavia. But it all depends on criteria and definitions. Some anthropologists had broader and less restrictive definitions of what counts as Nordic than others.

==================

Now this is probably what you consider as "effeminate" Nordic type - Piotr Kaszubski (he is from Poland):

http://www.gala.pl/upload/galleries/113/piotr-kaszubki-jest-scigany-listem-113858_l.jpg

Blonde is his natural hair colour - but here a dark-haired version:

http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/d7/d8/cd/z13490391Q,Mlody-milioner-Piotr-Kaszubski-podczas-debaty-o-bi.jpg

I'm not sure what is his ancestry, but his surname translates as Peter Kashubian:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashubians#Genetics

Donald Tusk is also Kashubian, but he looks like mixed West Baltid + East Nordic.

West Baltid is one of Cro-Magnid descended types.

http://s14.postimg.org/v1eir4j4h/Tusk.png
I have seen several Poles who look like Piotr Kaszubski, I would not say that "effeminate" because he has a very defined jaw. But yes, that general look often has a soft jaw which is effeminate.

Angela
07-06-16, 01:13
Let me join the fun of pseudo-science :) : Only the first two are undoubtly "nordid". They are both of the same corded subtype, imho. Hugh Laurie would be also a masculine looking "corded" example, although he has a slight med tendency. About the others I'm not so sure.

People do indeed take all of this stuff too seriously. By pointing to Coon's work I didn't mean to imply that this is a substitute for genetics; my only point was that if people are going to give credence to physical anthropology they should at least stick to the definitions of the professionals, and not make things up as they go along, usually out of some agenda.

As to those pictures, I agree with you about the first two. The last one (if that's who you mean) isn't Hugh Laurie, it's Kevin Costner and I'm not sure about him. (He looks like a typical German-Irish American mix to me.) I don't think the others are "Nordic", especially not Rutger Hauer, and neither, by any stretch of the imagination is the person in the last picture of post 170.

Dinarid
07-06-16, 03:01
People do indeed take all of this stuff too seriously. By pointing to Coon's work I didn't mean to imply that this is a substitute for genetics; my only point was that if people are going to give credence to physical anthropology they should at least stick to the definitions of the professionals, and not make things up as they go along, usually out of some agenda.

As to those pictures, I agree with you about the first two. The last one (if that's who you mean) isn't Hugh Laurie, it's Kevin Costner and I'm not sure about him. (He looks like a typical German-Irish American mix to me.) I don't think the others are "Nordic", especially not Rutger Hauer, and neither, by any stretch of the imagination is the person in the last picture of post 170.

The problem is that there are no physical anthropologists nowadays, so the entire field is based on obsolete science.

Tomenable
07-06-16, 07:03
The problem is that there are no physical anthropologists nowadays

What? Haha. Of course there are. For example:

http://www.staff.amu.edu.pl/~anthro/html/indexe.html

But they no longer use this typological approach.


About the others I'm not so sure.

Others are mixed types. Photos are from this website:

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/rg-main.htm

ElHorsto
07-06-16, 13:31
People do indeed take all of this stuff too seriously. By pointing to Coon's work I didn't mean to imply that this is a substitute for genetics; my only point was that if people are going to give credence to physical anthropology they should at least stick to the definitions of the professionals, and not make things up as they go along, usually out of some agenda.


Agree, that's what I meant by calling it fun. Although I have more doubts about Coon, despite I'm citing him myself often. He is considered outdated among scientists and probably one major reason are his historical interpretations. For instance his idea of "cro-magnid paleolithic survivals" in NW-Europe has been debunked by genetics, and it is possible that he was subject to wishful thinking sometimes. Currently it looks more likely that his irish "paleolithic survivals" are more likely to be (re-)imports from the steppe. There is no reason to assume that Cro-Magnon (not to be confused with WHG) ancestry survived in Western Europe more than anywhere else in Europe.



As to those pictures, I agree with you about the first two. The last one (if that's who you mean) isn't Hugh Laurie, it's Kevin Costner and I'm not sure about him.


I agree completely and I know that this is Kevin Costner. I suggested Hugh Laurie as a third additional good example for a masculine looking corded nordid, which is not yet in the list.
Kevin Costner is indeed not a perfect example. I can also see his part amerindian ancestry.



(He looks like a typical German-Irish American mix to me.) I don't think the others are "Nordic", especially not Rutger Hauer, and neither, by any stretch of the imagination is the person in the last picture of post 170.

Agree completely.

Angela
07-06-16, 19:08
Agree, that's what I meant by calling it fun. Although I have more doubts about Coon, despite I'm citing him myself often. He is considered outdated among scientists and probably one major reason are his historical interpretations. For instance his idea of "cro-magnid paleolithic survivals" in NW-Europe has been debunked by genetics, and it is possible that he was subject to wishful thinking sometimes. Currently it looks more likely that his irish "paleolithic survivals" are more likely to be (re-)imports from the steppe. There is no reason to assume that Cro-Magnon (not to be confused with WHG) ancestry survived in Western Europe more than anywhere else in Europe.



I agree completely and I know that this is Kevin Costner. I suggested Hugh Laurie as a third additional good example for a masculine looking corded nordid, which is not yet in the list.
Kevin Costner is indeed not a perfect example. I can also see his part amerindian ancestry.



Agree completely.

This is going to get boring. I also agree completely. :) The only reason I cite Coon, despite the fact that he's been proven wrong on a number of things, is that he seems "less" wrong to me than the others.

Also, my main point is, as I said, that if you're going to do this sort of "typology", you have absolutely no credibility if you make up your own definitions, which seems to me what most people on anthrofora do. So, gracile Mediterraneans become Atlanto-Meds, Atlanto-Meds become Atlantids, anyone with a long nose becomes Dinaric, anyone with a wide face is Baltid, and the list goes on and on.

To a point raised above, there are indeed still physical anthropologists, and they do measure crania, and facial features, and the bones of the body. They're very important in the realm of forensics, and quite accurate when it comes to broad, modern, "continental" groupings.

Oh, also to another point raised above, the plates these old school anthropologists published represent tiny percentages in any country. Most living people are a mixture of features from all these groups.

Tomenable
08-06-16, 07:28
Anyway, Angela, your (and maybe Coon's, but I think you are misinterpreting him) point that Nordic type originated from Mediterranean type doesn't seem to be valid in the light of genetic evidence, because EEF is not the main ancestry of Scandinavians or even more broadly of Northern Europeans.

Also if you look at facial reconstructions of skulls from Bronze Age Russian steppe, for example facial reconstructions of Yamnaya people, you will see that quite many of them did have this Nordic phenotype. You can easily find Yamnaya facial reconstructions all over the anthrofora, or in Google Images.

So if anything I would say that Nordics are depigmented Yamnayas (as we know Yamnayas were rather dark), which makes sense since Yamnaya or Yamnaya-like autosomal ancestry is very common in Norway and Sweden.

We also know as a matter of fact that the Yamnaya people did not have EEF admixture, so they did not have anything in common with Mediterraneans, even if - by pure coincidence - they happened to produce many people of a little bit similar, long-headed and long-faced phenotype. As you know people with different genotypes and different ethnic ancestries can often produce similar phenotypes, just like people of similar genotypes and belonging to the same ethnic group can produce even phenotypes very distinct from each other. Yamnayas according to all evidence were mostly a mixture of EHG and CHG - so even if my idea that Nordic phenotype originated among EHGs is wrong, then apparently it originated later on, as a product of mixing of EHG and CHG genes.

BTW I wrote another response before, but it didn't show up so far. I will post it later.

Fire Haired14
08-06-16, 09:38
Anyway, Angela, your (and maybe Coon's, but I think you are misinterpreting him) point that Nordic type originated from Mediterranean type doesn't seem to be valid in the light of genetic evidence, because EEF is not the main ancestry of Scandinavians or even more broadly of Northern Europeans.

If you gave these Sardinians mostly fair skin, Brown hair, and Blue eyes they still wouldn't pass as Northern European. You're totally right there're more difference than pigmentation.
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/content/uploads/2013/09/20130923cnsbr1795.jpg


So if anything I would say that Nordics are depigmented Yamnayas (as we know Yamnayas were rather dark), which makes sense since Yamnaya or Yamnaya-like autosomal ancestry is very common in Norway and Sweden.

It should be a mix of Yamnaya and Middle Neolithic. It doesn't have to be Yamnaya or Middle Neolithic. Middle Neolithic is just as common in Norway/Sweden just as Yamnaya.


We also know as a matter of fact that the Yamnaya people did not have EEF admixture, so they did not have anything in common with Mediterraneans

As much as we put emphasis on how differnt prehistoric Europeans were from each other, they weren't very differnt at all when you put them on the scale of humanoid diversity(Neanderthal vs human), human diversity, and Eurasian diversity. Yamnaya and EEF are going to have similar features because they share lots of ancestry from many of the same Paleolithic Eurasian ancestors and because they were both human. Also You don't need to be an expert to know deciphering Yamnaya and EEF traits isn't going to be a perfect science. Maybe we can learn about trends by looking at bones but it won't be black and white.

Angela
09-06-16, 04:05
Anyway, Angela, your (and maybe Coon's, but I think you are misinterpreting him) point that Nordic type originated from Mediterranean type doesn't seem to be valid in the light of genetic evidence, because EEF is not the main ancestry of Scandinavians or even more broadly of Northern Europeans.

Also if you look at facial reconstructions of skulls from Bronze Age Russian steppe, for example facial reconstructions of Yamnaya people, you will see that quite many of them did have this Nordic phenotype. You can easily find Yamnaya facial reconstructions all over the anthrofora, or in Google Images.

So if anything I would say that Nordics are depigmented Yamnayas (as we know Yamnayas were rather dark), which makes sense since Yamnaya or Yamnaya-like autosomal ancestry is very common in Norway and Sweden.

We also know as a matter of fact that the Yamnaya people did not have EEF admixture, so they did not have anything in common with Mediterraneans, even if - by pure coincidence - they happened to produce many people of a little bit similar, long-headed and long-faced phenotype. As you know people with different genotypes and different ethnic ancestries can often produce similar phenotypes, just like people of similar genotypes and belonging to the same ethnic group can produce even phenotypes very distinct from each other. Yamnayas according to all evidence were mostly a mixture of EHG and CHG - so even if my idea that Nordic phenotype originated among EHGs is wrong, then apparently it originated later on, as a product of mixing of EHG and CHG genes.

BTW I wrote another response before, but it didn't show up so far. I will post it later.

I guess I have to say again that I don't think this kind of analysis is any sort of substitute for genetic data. All I'm saying is that if people are going to use terms like "Nordic", and trace the "evolution" of it as a phenotype, they should stick to the conclusions of actual physical anthropologists. As to Coon, I provided a summary of his work from Wiki. I'll post a few direct quotes. Please show me how I'm misrepresenting him.

Coon: The Races of Man

" The Nordic race is a partially depigmented branch of the greater Mediterranean racial stock. It is probably a composite race made up of two or more basic Mediterranean strains, depigmented separately or in conjunction by a progressive evolutionary process. As has been demonstrated on plates 9 and 10, it is impossible, as some European anthropologists believe, to derive a Nordic directly from a dolichocephalic Upper Palaeolithic ancestor of Brünn or Crô-Magnon type. Reduction of these overgrown races produces a result which is quite un-Nordic morphologically as well as in constitutional type. It is the author's thesis that the Nordic race in Europe was caused by a blending of the early Danubian Mediterranean strain with the later Corded element. At the present time both Corded and Danubian elements may be isolated, while other Nordics preserve the blended form. Nordics in eastern Europe, Asia, and North Africa may have been formed by separate recombinations or simple depigmentations of comparable Mediterranean strains, or by invasions of these regions from an European or West Asiatic depigmentation center."

"It traces the Nordic racial type, in skeletal form, back to the Early Iron Age, and derives this with little alteration from the preceding Age of Bronze. The Bronze Age population which was thus the ancestral Nordic one was in turn derived from a mixture between the local Danubian Neolithic people, who came from the east, and the later Corded invaders."

"This "Nordic" type is no special or separate race, but merely a variant of the larger Mediterranean family, of an intermediate metrical position.

It finds a ready prototype in the Bronze Age population which stretched from Austria to Siberia, and which was in turn the product of mixture between Danubian peasants and Corded invaders."

As you can see, he's not saying that the two types are identical; he's saying that they are different variants of a main type.

Also see the following where Coon (I believe) discusses a Yemeni boy in this context:
7772

Coon is not the only physical anthropologist who believed this.

For example, John Baker on "Hallstat"
"Halstatte inhumed bodies had occiputs projected sufficiently to bring these people into the dolicocranial range; the forehead receded somewhat; the face was long and somewhat prognathous; the men must have been about 170 cm ( 5' 7") tall. The skulls are remarkably similar to the definitely Nordid ones found in the 'grace in rows' (Reihengraber) of southern Germany, though they are not quite so flat on top. It must be remembered, nevertheless, that the skulls of Nordids are not very markedly different from those of Mediterraneanids, and the suggestion has been made that inhumed people may possibly have been of the latter subrace."

There's also a great deal in Coon and others about the metrics of the Corded people and their possible ancestry if you want to take a look at them.

If people choose to follow the physical anthropologists who think "Nordics" descend from UP Europeans like Gravettians or the WHG they're free to do so, but I don't see it.

Also, in terms of your argument, you didn't say that the "Nordic" type was descended from some people on the steppe as you are doing now. You first said this type is closest to UP Europeans, and then said you were referring specifically to the EHG. The only way to prove that point would be to go through Coon or other trained physical anthropologists and note down the appropriate metrics for the "Nordic" type, and then get the metrics for the EHG and perhaps an EEF sample, and compare all of them.

The steppe people are a different story. They vary a great deal by time and area. Plus, if you're talking about the Yamnaya, they're only half EHG. The rest is CHG, so the metrics of the Yamnaya wouldn't prove your initial contention that the "Nordics" are closest to the EHG. In addition, those "reconstructions" of Yamnaya people you posted are made by God knows whom. Even then they don't look to me anything like the plates all these academic physical anthropologists have made of so called "Nordic" people.

You might want to take a look at the following paper. It has lots of information in terms of metrics about the incredible variety on the steppe at different stages. I'm not overwhelmed by the number of "Nordic" like metrics. It's also interesting that they group the "Maykop" sample with Armenians from the south Caucasus.
https://www.academia.edu/9203307/On_the_Biological_Distinctness_of_the_Pit-grave_Yamnaya_People_in_the_Northwestern_Caspian_C ranial_Evidence

Tomenable
09-06-16, 23:53
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/content/uploads/2013/09/20130923cnsbr1795.jpg

Even depigmented most of them wouldn't look typical in Northern Europe.

They are too gracile and too short. Maybe 20% max could pass as typical.

Angela
10-06-16, 03:20
"Northern European" is not the standard. "Nordic" is the standard. There are a LOT of Northern and Eastern Europeans who are not "Nordic" by the definition of physical anthropologists.

Plus, the point Coon and other physical anthropologists were making is not that Nordics and Meds are identical but that the two are anciently related.

Ed. In addition, there has been a lot of selection going on over the last 5000 years, in pigmentation certainly, but also I would think in skeleton size based on climate and diet. Head shapes have also changed, I think. I believe I read that Europeans have become more mesocephalic over time.

Tomenable
02-07-16, 16:57
Angela here I posted average metrics of Corded Ware skulls:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32413-Average-CWC-skull-metrics?p=482980&viewfull=1#post482980

Do we have metrics of "typical Nordic skull" for comparison?

Or maybe metrics of average EEF Neolithic skull, as well?

Angela
02-07-16, 17:29
Angela here I posted average metrics of Corded Ware skulls:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32413-Average-CWC-skull-metrics?p=482980&viewfull=1#post482980

Do we have metrics of "typical Nordic skull" for comparison?

Or maybe metrics of average EEF Neolithic skull, as well?

Sorry, Tomenable, I'm sure they exist, but I don't have them in my files. You might start with Coon. I think a lot of his work is online.

Tomenable
04-07-16, 00:29
Data on percentage of convex noses by country / ethnicity:

Armenians: 62%
Albania (Ghegs): "over 50%"
Montenegro: 52%
Jews (Ashkenazi): "below 50%"
Ireland: 45%
Basques: 43% (Spanish); 49% (French)
Netherlands (Frisians): 35%
Italy (North): 32%
Greece: 30%
Switzerland: 25%
Serbia: 25%
Ukraine (Volhynians): 17%
Spain: 15%
Bulgaria: "rare"

I found it here (posters say that it is originally from Carleton S. Coon):

http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/single/?p=807948&t=4807332

http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/998/Percentages-of-convex-noses-by-country#.V3mRHdVkjIU

srdceleva
10-07-16, 01:00
Its funny becaue the first pictures of what are supposed to the most attractive features, i find completely boring, plain, and not very attractive at all. I actually dont mind a big nose on people with character as long as it somehow fits the persons face and personality. I also would say that the nose of dantes that was posted, i dont think you can find that in Iberia. Its a very italian southern european nose that can be found in greece and the middle east, though in the middle east it looks somehow different. My friend is from northern italy and he has that nose, and dantes himself was from tuscany, which is northern italy so it can be found there, but spanish and portuguese do not have this nose. Actually is the one difference that i see in spaniards when compared physically to the italians, that spaniards have quite small noses more similar to the rest of northern europeans i would say, but finer featured, where as italians and greeks have typical southern eurpean noses. Also i find alot of northern european noses to be a bit rounder especially in some slavic and germanic countries where as southern europeans and id say very west europeans have more pointy features.

Angela
10-07-16, 16:20
I'm not totally in agreement. (You'll see my interests quite clearly. :))

Spanish writers:

The greatest of all, Cervantes, has a very "Dante like" nose, I think:
http://www.famousauthors.org/famous-authors/miguel-de-cervantes.jpg

Garcilaso de la Vega:
http://omegastereo.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Garcilaso-de-la-Vega.jpg

My other favorite, Federico Lorca, definitely does have a nose that's on the smallish side, but it's not very attractive.
https://www.poets.org/sites/default/files/styles/286x289/public/images/biographies/fglorca_0.jpg?itok=Y2eKIRSS

Perez-Rivera certainly has a large and rather drooping nose. In the more recent pictures that came up just now when I googled him he's certainly changed from when I remember him, but I actually think he's one of those fortunate people who has gotten better looking with age.
http://static.deia.com/images/2014/11/29/efe_20110908_105359_pa1285_1761_11.jpg

I very much recommend his novel "Club Dumas":
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7194.The_Club_Dumas

Luis Bunuel:
http://www.laculturaenpuebla.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Luis-Bu%C3%B1uel.jpg

Almodovar has a potato nose, so I won't include him.

Carlos Saura:
http://media2.ledevoir.com/images_galerie/35152_66163/carlos-saura.jpg

Rossy De Palma: Actress in Pedro Almodovar films
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2gQ91U0D3Ac/VBf2AH7kzmI/AAAAAAAADxU/EAgcI38s3Z4/s1600/Rossy%2Bde%2BPalma%2BLa%2BLey%2Bdel%2BDeseo.jpg

Paloma Picasso-fashion designer and daughter of Pablo Picasso
http://cache4.asset-cache.net/gc/175575252-fashion-designer-paloma-picasso-in-1989-ca-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=GkZZ8bf5zL1ZiijUmxa7QVATRB204jTm95D%2FSNEfoe6XCL XwkqXey0xCE%2BA4pTzsS7Oo7fra3cGqDyKwbgDi%2BQ%3D%3D

Famous Chefs:
Jose Andres-
http://s.libertaddigital.com/fotos/noticias/jose-andres.jpg

Carme Ruscadella
http://diari.uib.es/digitalAssets/199/199444_img_024.jpg

Maybe Basques shouldn't count?

Karlos Arguinano-
http://www.sansebastiangastronomika.com/es/noticias/fotos/250x/karlos-arguinano-2.jpg

Eneko Atxa-I've always thought he's very fetching. :)
https://bilbao-bizkaia.slowfood.es/wp-content/uploads/slowfood_old/40/files/2011/02/ENEKO.jpg

They have what we usually think of as "French" noses, not that all French people have them, of course.
Anne Sophie Pic-
http://finedininglovers.cdn.crosscast-system.com/BlogPost/l_3118_anne.sophie.pic-1-.jpg

I could go on, because it was fun revisiting some of the people I admire, but you get the drift.

So, while I would say that "large" noses are perhaps not as frequent in Iberia as even in France, they're definitely there.

That said, I find some of the figures in Tomenable's chart a little exaggerated.


Oh, definitely not someone I admire, but one can hardly ignore him: Francisco Franco
http://historiaybiografias.com/archivos_varios3/franco1.jpg
http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/1st-april-1939-general-francisco-franco-the-nationalist-leader-and-picture-id3276483

srdceleva
12-07-16, 11:26
yes your right, cervantes especially has a very Roman type nose and Rossy de palma looks almost north african to me but your right, the classic southern european nose does occur in iberia though i still think its much less than in Italy or greece. Almodovar has a potatoe nose...haha i actualy laughed out loud at that comment. Very nice interests btw

srdceleva
12-07-16, 11:40
I feel like older europeans had much sharper and more dignified noses than most modern ones. Thomas more to me seemed to have a very strong dignified nose in my opinion.
7862

Angela
12-07-16, 16:05
I feel like older europeans had much sharper and more dignified noses than most modern ones. Thomas more to me seemed to have a very strong dignified nose in my opinion.
7862

I agree. I think that's true even as recently as the Victorian Era and the preceding war years.

William Gladstone:
https://media1.britannica.com/eb-media/50/950-004-8DD92665.jpg

Thomas Carlyle:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Thomas_Carlyle_1.jpg

Horatio Lord Nelson:
http://historysheroes.e2bn.org/phpThumb/phpThumb.php?src=/library/who_were_they_main_picture/final_nelson6_final_thumbnail.jpg&w=345

The Duke of Wellington:
http://waterloo200.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/8.-1st-Duke-portrait-by-Phillips-1.jpg

The same applies to the greatest American statesmen:

Thomas Paine:
http://www.biographyonline.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Thomas_Paine2.jpg

George Washington-an ugly nose, but certainly imposing:
http://www.studentsoftheworld.info/sites/country/img/47193_images.jpeg

Thomas Jefferson:
http://www.dispatch.com/content/graphics/2015/07/10/poplar-forest-art-gh212c1a8-1thomas-jefferson.jpg

Abraham Lincoln:
http://a4.files.biography.com/image/upload/c_fit,cs_srgb,dpr_1.0,h_1200,q_80,w_1200/MTIwNjA4NjMzODg2NTc0MDky.jpg

Maybe those old sayings that connect certain types of noses to a certain character weren't totally incorrect.

I've thought that perhaps as even previously isolated populations all admix there's some sort of leveling process and nose shapes get averaged out...

I've seen that happening in my old ancestral villages. It used to be that certain distinctive noses were pretty commonplace. Now, with "out-marriage", they're disappearing. The same thing has happened with "Greek" noses in Italy, at least as far as women are concerned.


"Potato" nose was perhaps a little off. :) Almodovar's nose is more like a blob nose. You know, sort of oozing out all over the face, like the creature in the aptly named "The Blob" oozed out into the street.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51H37EZV2YL.jpg

Albert Einstein had it too. This picture always makes me smile. :)
http://i2.wp.com/listverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/albert_einstein-e1371966098730.jpeg?resize=632%2C474

LeBrok
12-07-16, 17:02
I agree. I think that's true even as recently as the Victorian Era and the preceding war years.

William Gladstone:
https://media1.britannica.com/eb-media/50/950-004-8DD92665.jpg

Thomas Carlyle:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Thomas_Carlyle_1.jpg

Horatio Lord Nelson:
http://historysheroes.e2bn.org/phpThumb/phpThumb.php?src=/library/who_were_they_main_picture/final_nelson6_final_thumbnail.jpg&w=345

The Duke of Wellington:
http://waterloo200.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/8.-1st-Duke-portrait-by-Phillips-1.jpg

The same applies to the greatest American statesmen:

Thomas Paine:
http://www.biographyonline.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Thomas_Paine2.jpg

George Washington-an ugly nose, but certainly imposing:
http://www.studentsoftheworld.info/sites/country/img/47193_images.jpeg

Thomas Jefferson:
http://www.dispatch.com/content/graphics/2015/07/10/poplar-forest-art-gh212c1a8-1thomas-jefferson.jpg

Abraham Lincoln:
http://a4.files.biography.com/image/upload/c_fit,cs_srgb,dpr_1.0,h_1200,q_80,w_1200/MTIwNjA4NjMzODg2NTc0MDky.jpg

Maybe those old sayings that connect certain types of noses to a certain character weren't totally incorrect.

I've thought that perhaps as even previously isolated populations all admix there's some sort of leveling process and nose shapes get averaged out...

I've seen that happening in my old ancestral villages. It used to be that certain distinctive noses were pretty commonplace. Now, with "out-marriage", they're disappearing. The same thing has happened with "Greek" noses in Italy, at least as far as women are concerned.


"Potato" nose was perhaps a little off. :) Almodovar's nose is more like a blob nose. You know, sort of oozing out all over the face, like the creature in the aptly named "The Blob" oozed out into the street.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51H37EZV2YL.jpg

Albert Einstein had it too. This picture always makes me smile. :)
http://i2.wp.com/listverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/albert_einstein-e1371966098730.jpeg?resize=632%2C474
What is it in sense of our esthetics that we perceive rounded/potato like tip not very attractive? Am I mistaken or some people do find it "sexy"?
Any positive comment would make me feel better for sure. The older I get the more potato like nose I get, lol. I wish it was coming together with Einstein smarts.

Angela
12-07-16, 17:36
What is it in sense of our esthetics that we perceive rounded/potato like tip not very attractive? Am I mistaken or some people do find it "sexy"?
Any positive comment would make me feel better for sure. The older I get the more potato like nose I get, lol. I wish it was coming together with Einstein smarts.

Ah, LeBrok, my impression is that with age everything starts to sag, even for those with excellent genes for youthful looks. It's most, most unfortunate. :sad-2: I think you get my drift, no need for vulgar pictures...:grin:

Hawk noses droop down until you think the tip is going to meet the chin, pointy noses become rapier like, bulbous or wide noses start to spread like...there is no other word for it, the dreaded "blob"!:laughing:

What to do?There are exercises and weight training for the body, boring and hateful as that regimen is, but how could you exercise the nose?:confused2:

I suppose, if it gets bad enough, one might consider plastic surgery? :petrified:

Even Helen Mirren's nose has gotten a little blobby with age.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/MQh1G8yrfqg/maxresdefault.jpg


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Jbp2qmkWjys/TjcHUACkzfI/AAAAAAAAAK0/MjTIiaS2SAQ/s1600/Helen+Mirren-5.jpg

What with the nose and wrinkles I have no idea why hot young actors are so eager to try to kiss her.
The world is becoming more and more perverse with each passing day.

In terms of sexiness, the largest erogenous zone is in the brain. Smart is sexy as hell.

srdceleva
13-07-16, 21:55
I agree. I think that's true even as recently as the Victorian Era and the preceding war years.

William Gladstone:
https://media1.britannica.com/eb-media/50/950-004-8DD92665.jpg

Thomas Carlyle:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Thomas_Carlyle_1.jpg

Horatio Lord Nelson:
http://historysheroes.e2bn.org/phpThumb/phpThumb.php?src=/library/who_were_they_main_picture/final_nelson6_final_thumbnail.jpg&w=345

The Duke of Wellington:
http://waterloo200.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/8.-1st-Duke-portrait-by-Phillips-1.jpg

The same applies to the greatest American statesmen:

Thomas Paine:
http://www.biographyonline.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Thomas_Paine2.jpg

George Washington-an ugly nose, but certainly imposing:
http://www.studentsoftheworld.info/sites/country/img/47193_images.jpeg

Thomas Jefferson:
http://www.dispatch.com/content/graphics/2015/07/10/poplar-forest-art-gh212c1a8-1thomas-jefferson.jpg

Abraham Lincoln:
http://a4.files.biography.com/image/upload/c_fit,cs_srgb,dpr_1.0,h_1200,q_80,w_1200/MTIwNjA4NjMzODg2NTc0MDky.jpg

Maybe those old sayings that connect certain types of noses to a certain character weren't totally incorrect.

I've thought that perhaps as even previously isolated populations all admix there's some sort of leveling process and nose shapes get averaged out...

I've seen that happening in my old ancestral villages. It used to be that certain distinctive noses were pretty commonplace. Now, with "out-marriage", they're disappearing. The same thing has happened with "Greek" noses in Italy, at least as far as women are concerned.


"Potato" nose was perhaps a little off. :) Almodovar's nose is more like a blob nose. You know, sort of oozing out all over the face, like the creature in the aptly named "The Blob" oozed out into the street.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51H37EZV2YL.jpg

Albert Einstein had it too. This picture always makes me smile. :)
http://i2.wp.com/listverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/albert_einstein-e1371966098730.jpeg?resize=632%2C474

haha the blob, well yes its not the most attractive nose, but hey the ugliest features can be beautiful if the person has a great personality. Ive known women who at first I didn't think were very attractive, but had something really special in their character and suddenly they looked amazing to me. I still hope my nose doesn't become the blob though :).

Yes I feel like until very recently Europeans, or people of European descent had very strong sort of regale noses. All the people you cited are great examples of that, or maybe it was just the style of painting, but I don't think so. I really do think mixing between European countries has caused noses to some how become more neutral and even out, its not that they are bad looking now, just that some how noses in the past had more strength and character and now peoples noses are just kind of regular.

though Gerard Depardieu has a massive nose, maybe not considered attractive by all, I still think he was never a bad looking guy, quite the opposite, and that hes quite a likable looking guy.

7866

Angela
14-07-16, 16:17
To be clear, we have our share of "blob" noses in Italy. :) I notice a lot of them further into Toscana, for some reason, usually in women, even though you can also find very bony and prominent noses, usually on men for some reason. I'm not the first to notice a certain dysmorphia in Tuscany.

This is Nada, a Tuscan singer from Livorno, just down the coast from me.
https://spaghettimusic.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/nadamalanima-nada-malanima-screen-shot-20101029-at-85934.png?w=499

Hers has held up pretty well. :)
http://life.style.it/CACHE/users/f/FraAnn_style/17%20Nada.jpg

We'll have to agree to disagree about Depardieu. You may have found his most attractive picture, btw!. :) I find him very unappealing, and certainly not because of his nose; it's his weight, and the fact that he always looks like an unmade bed. Those and maybe the fact that he usually plays such vulgar men.

Angela
14-07-16, 16:22
[QUOTE=Angela;484069]To be clear, we have our share of "blob" noses in Italy. :) I notice a lot of them further into Toscana, for some reason, usually in women, even though you can also find very bony and prominent noses, usually on men for some reason. I'm not the first to notice a certain dysmorphia in Tuscany.

This is Nada, a Tuscan singer from Livorno, just down the coast from me.
https://spaghettimusic.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/nadamalanima-nada-malanima-screen-shot-20101029-at-85934.png?w=499

Hers has held up pretty well. :)
http://life.style.it/CACHE/users/f/FraAnn_style/17%20Nada.jpg

We'll have to agree to disagree about Depardieu. You may have found his most attractive picture, btw!. :) I find him very unappealing, and certainly not because of his nose; it's his weight, and the fact that he always looks like an unmade bed. Those and maybe the fact that he usually plays such vulgar men.

Now, Louis Jourdan had a little bit of a blob thing going on, but what a difference...my mom was a big fan...so charming and debonair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwqW3Kfe7Zc

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/headhuntershorrorhouse/images/6/63/Louis_Jourdan.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130814194759

srdceleva
14-07-16, 18:54
[QUOTE=Angela;484069]To be clear, we have our share of "blob" noses in Italy. :) I notice a lot of them further into Toscana, for some reason, usually in women, even though you can also find very bony and prominent noses, usually on men for some reason. I'm not the first to notice a certain dysmorphia in Tuscany.

This is Nada, a Tuscan singer from Livorno, just down the coast from me.
https://spaghettimusic.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/nadamalanima-nada-malanima-screen-shot-20101029-at-85934.png?w=499

Hers has held up pretty well. :)
http://life.style.it/CACHE/users/f/FraAnn_style/17%20Nada.jpg

We'll have to agree to disagree about Depardieu. You may have found his most attractive picture, btw!. :) I find him very unappealing, and certainly not because of his nose; it's his weight, and the fact that he always looks like an unmade bed. Those and maybe the fact that he usually plays such vulgar men.

Now, Louis Jourdan had a little bit of a blob thing going on, but what a difference...my mom was a big fan...so charming and debonair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwqW3Kfe7Zc

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/headhuntershorrorhouse/images/6/63/Louis_Jourdan.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130814194759

haha well I don't think Nada has much of a blob nose, quite a nice attractive nose I would say, and yes its held up pretty well :). Luis Jourdan also has quite a nice nose to me as well and is just generally a pretty handsom guy so I think there is a big difference between him and Einstein when it comes to noses :D. I think my noses is kind of blobby but it fits my face, ill see how it holds up through the years :D

Also, well yes I think now especially Gerard Depardieu is unattractive because he leads such an unhealthy lifestyle and is terribly over weight, but I think when he was young that he wasn't a bad looking guy. Also yes he can be quite controversial but I think hes an excellent actor, I mean I really like green card, and Cyrano de Bergerac :)

7872

Also grace Kelly looks beautiful in that movie, the style was amazing back in those days, id love to play in a movie like that

Angela
15-07-16, 01:12
[QUOTE=Angela;484070]

haha well I don't think Nada has much of a blob nose, quite a nice attractive nose I would say, and yes its held up pretty well :). Luis Jourdan also has quite a nice nose to me as well and is just generally a pretty handsom guy so I think there is a big difference between him and Einstein when it comes to noses :D. I think my noses is kind of blobby but it fits my face, ill see how it holds up through the years :D

Also, well yes I think now especially Gerard Depardieu is unattractive because he leads such an unhealthy lifestyle and is terribly over weight, but I think when he was young that he wasn't a bad looking guy. Also yes he can be quite controversial but I think hes an excellent actor, I mean I really like green card, and Cyrano de Bergerac :)

7872

Also grace Kelly looks beautiful in that movie, the style was amazing back in those days, id love to play in a movie like that

Grace Kelly was exquisite in her youth: what princesses should look like but so seldom do. I think she was more beautiful here even than in "The Philadelphia Story" and "To Catch a Thief". Of course, for me it was hard to tear my eyes off Louis Jourdan. :) I think they still haven't released "The Swan" on dvd or on netflix etc.

http://a2.files.biography.com/image/upload/c_fill,cs_srgb,dpr_1.0,g_face,h_300,q_80,w_300/MTE4MDAzNDEwNTg1MjI0NzE4.jpg

For me, there's nothing like those old, classic movies. I was born at the wrong time.

You're right about Depardieu. I'd forgotten how nice looking he was in "Green Card". It's a pity he's let himself go like this. He is indeed a very good actor, most recently in the television series. "Marseilles".

SergioSergius
28-02-17, 14:13
I think the Serbian King Peter I Karageorgevich had a typical Balkan-Dinaric kind of face (including nose).

8521

Other example. Voivoda Živojin Mišić (personally I have a similar nose structure).

8522

Bollox79
06-03-17, 01:59
Got a question for you anthro types (that know a lot more than I do... I am just fairly familiar my Y-DNA group U106 and sub groups and research regarding that and known a good deal about my autosomal etc.)... I have always noticed I have a big, ole nose! I do get A LOT of autsomal matches from Irish and Scots Gaelic though - but also have Northern German/Baltic ones and a few Russian 5th cousins from Pennsylvania. I have a good idea where all my autosomal matches come from and also my maternal and paternal lines. I match a couple really old skeletons on my Y-DNA from Driffield Terrace in Northern England in a Roman era cemetery (skeletons 3drif-16 and 6drif-3 - 6drif-3 is the closer match of the two) ;-). What do you anthro people think? Also how can I tell the shape of my skull? It's narrow in the front (around the temples) but wider in the back than other people's heads! I have a rather large head for my height etc. Also I have shorter legs on average and longer torso, but am not particularly tall or short - about 5'10"ish and a fairly heavy build (thanks to lifting weights and/or doing labor jobs)! Thank in advance for any info/help you can give me! I look a good bit like my father, but also take after my Mother's side which is mainly Irish from New York and Scots Highlander from Ontario... at least more recently! I also get the flushed/reddish skin around my nose facial area that is genetic I think and is from populations that come from colder climates - as I get dry skin most of the year around... it certainly genetic! It must be from the Irish side, but both sides have Irish (Scots Irish would be the best description of that). Hope is ok I post in this thread! Also an addition one of me looking pretty pale with a beard ;-). Not much sun in Pennsylvania during the winter! 8542
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Cheers!8541

Bollox79
06-03-17, 02:13
I guess my next question would be can we really tease out phenotypes? I see Americans (like me) being a bit wonky or throwing the mold/average a bit because even if we are mostly from one or very close areas DNA wise (in my case Ireland and Scotland for the most part)... we can have a strange mixture (such as I having 3rd-5th cousins from all over Scotland and Ireland, but only a few 5th cousins from the Baltic and NE Europe per my father's mother's mother's father's family who were probably Prussian and Volga Germans, but from Bohemia over the border in the Czech Rep for a generation or two - that is where I think I get that bit of Russian DNA :-)!). The gedmatch calculators tend to either give me a lot of Dutch/German/Scandinavian or mixed mode 90ish% British Isles and about 10%ish some Russian horse tribe haha! I don't take it all that seriously, but it's fun to see if there are patterns!

firetown
06-03-17, 12:38
Sorry for the title of this post, but I couldn't find examples till I typed this into google search.

This one is common in French or Alpine, and maybe Ashkenazi, (according to me :).
I think Depardieu is an extreme example but very characteristic. Nose is sort of wide at the tip with characteristic groove in the middle.
http://forward.com/workspace/assets/images/articles/DEPARDIEU-2.jpg

Swiss movie director:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v705/yesyadda/m1-8.jpg

http://www.ijreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/BillClinton.jpg


Very interesting look. The cleft in both, nose and chin. Could indicate towards two completely opposite types of face shapes within her ancestry.