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Cernunnos
25-01-15, 20:15
Hi everyone,

I've been looking around for any of the latest information on the R1b- U-152 origins as most of the theories I've come
across are a couple years old already. Any consensus out there? The latest I can find is still Northern Italy, South-eastern France, Swiss Alps, or Bavarian region in Germany.
Thanks- Scott

Aberdeen
25-01-15, 20:23
Hi everyone,

I've been looking around for any of the latest information on the R1b- U-152 origins as most of the theories I've come
across are a couple years old already. Any consensus out there? The latest I can find is still Northern Italy, South-eastern France, Swiss Alps, or Bavarian region in Germany.
Thanks- Scott

If you think that subclade originated in Europe, when do you think its predecessor arrived there? How old do you think U-152 is?

U-152 seems to have been connected to the Hallstatt Culture, which expanded out of what is now Austria during the Bronze Age. We don't actually have data for U-152 prior to that, AFAIK, but some people think U-152 must have been present in the IE homeland. I'm not convinced of that but we should have some data soon.

Cernunnos
27-01-15, 01:22
If you think that subclade originated in Europe, when do you think its predecessor arrived there? How old do you think U-152 is?


U-152 seems to have been connected to the Hallstatt Culture, which expanded out of what is now Austria during the Bronze Age. We don't actually have data for U-152 prior to that, AFAIK, but some people think U-152 must have been present in the IE homeland. I'm not convinced of that but we should have some data soon.

I honestly just started looking into this as I just tested positive for R1b1b2a1a2d from 23andme. My gut intuition tells me that they are apart of the Hallstatt culture
and most probably began there or slightly east around Hungary.

I'm not convinced that U-152 were present in the IE homeland either...I think that which makes U-152 what they are began due to their environment in Europe.

Mostly I was wondering if there was any new data on the subject but sounds like it hasn't changed.

I still have to get tested for the new subdivisions as 23andme seems pretty outdated in what they are checking for and I'm a 'no call' for rs2566671 on 23andme.

thanks- Scott

MOESAN
23-02-15, 16:13
I cannot know where first Y -R1b-U152 appeared but the demographic developpment could have begun lately between Germany-France-Switzerland-Italy Alps and South Hungary-North Croatia (so in a possible Celtic-Italic area, exposed in the past "future" to Qw- >> P- switch) -
the U152 of Archaic Creta was a question for me, because I didn't link its presence to later Veneto (Venitian state in late Middle Age) but a recent extract found in Dienekes Blog could give us the clue

AN‘ETEOCRETAN’ INSCRIPTION FROM PRAISOS AND THE HOMELAND OF THE SEAPEOPLES

Luukde Ligt

Thewhereabouts of the homeland or homelands of the so-called Sea Peopleshave been endlessly debated. This article re-examines this problem bylooking at one of the ‘Eteocretan’ inscriptions from the town ofPraisos. It is argued that this text is written in an Indo-Europeanlanguage belonging to the OscanUmbrian branch of the Italic languagefamily. Based on this finding it is suggested that this language musthave arrived in eastern Crete during the Late Bronze Age, whenMycenaean rulers recruited groups of mercenaries from Sicily,Sardinia and various parts of the Italian peninsula. When theMycenaean state system collapsed around 1200 BC, some of these groupsmoved to the northern Aegean, to Cyprus and to the coastal districtsof the Levant. It is also suggested that this reconstruction explainsthe presence of an Etruscan-speaking community in sixth-century-BCLemnos. An interesting corollary of this theory is that the SeaPeoples were present in the Mycenaean world some considerable timebefore its collapse in the early twelfth century

Angela
23-02-15, 17:42
Sorry, Moesan, we cross posted about this study. I hope you don't mind but I've transferred your post to the specific thread about the paper. Perhaps you can comment further about the persuasiveness of the linguistic analysis, and about the U-152 link as you see it as well.

I'm of course interested to hear from all of our posters.

Aberdeen
23-02-15, 17:43
I honestly just started looking into this as I just tested positive for R1b1b2a1a2d from 23andme. My gut intuition tells me that they are apart of the Hallstatt culture
and most probably began there or slightly east around Hungary.

I'm not convinced that U-152 were present in the IE homeland either...I think that which makes U-152 what they are began due to their environment in Europe.

Mostly I was wondering if there was any new data on the subject but sounds like it hasn't changed.

I still have to get tested for the new subdivisions as 23andme seems pretty outdated in what they are checking for and I'm a 'no call' for rs2566671 on 23andme.

thanks- Scott

Did you enter that information correctly? I'm not one of the people on this forum who understands the science of genetics but I do know from looking at the R tree at ISOGG that R1b1b (M33) is not yet broken down into subclades and there doesn't seem to be much information available about it. If you meant R1b1a21a2d (L238/S182), it is downstream from P312 and I know it's found in Sweden but I couldn't find much information on it. Or did you mean to write R1b1a2a1a2c (U152)?

brianco
27-02-15, 04:00
23andMe are way behind on nomenclature. R1b1b2a1a2d is from 2010, I think. ISOGG now has U152 as R1b1a2a1a2b.

BTW http://www.yseq.net/ has testing for $17.50 per SNP, that is way less than FTDNA. 23andMe members need to establish which subclade they are in before they can SNP test though. A STR test for DYS492 is a good place to start as a 14 is definitely Z56. A 12 or 13 is a little more harder to predict! DYS492 is only $9.95 plus $5 shipping. They hold the DNA for later testing so no need to re - send.

Some may get lucky and have a surname that already tested at FTDNA. This 'may' help with SNP choice!

B.

mr_y82
05-11-15, 22:53
^brianco,

I'm pretty new to all this. I have had 23&me testing and it says I am subclade R1b1b2a1a2d... Does this...

"ISOGG now has U152 as R1b1a2a1a2b."

...mean that I would be reclassified, or that I am no longer U152?

My last name it Yutzy, and from what I have read, my subclade is common in the Alpine region (originated in Switzerland? My family were Swiss Anabaptist, but it spread from there to N. Italy, S. Germany, and parts of Austria and France...). Others with the same result seem to predominately be descended from the Swiss Anabaptists... My sister has studied our family history extensively and I will have to sit down with her to see how this genealogical research correlates with hers (I know she traced us to the Swiss Anabaptists, and it's been common knowledge in the family that we were Amish until a few generations back).

brianco
06-11-15, 10:59
Hi Mr Yutzy :)

U152 is the shorthand and never changes and hopefully never will. ISOGG change their designations frequently and 23andMe do not. Our 23andMe designation is from ISOGG 2010 but if the chip was developed then I suppose I can understand their logic for keeping it, confusing though!

We should always be U152 in my opinion. Anthrogenica.com have a superb U152 subforum if you are interested!

I am a few downstream markers of U152 but only because a 60/67 str match got his BigY done ($500) :( and I was able to arrange the SNPs to be tested at Yseq.net

Are you R1b1b2a1a2d or R1b1b2a1a2d* at 23andMe? The reason I ask is the asterisk *, in this instance means negative for L2 whereas without means a 'no call'.

If you are R1b1b2a1a2d without the *, this is not a problem as Yseq.net can test this to confirm you are L2 or not for only $15 + $5 kit shipping anywhere worldwide. They then have your DNA for future sampling, so no need for any more shipping :)
I have tested many times and results usually come in only 5 weeks or less!

B.





^brianco,

I'm pretty new to all this. I have had 23&me testing and it says I am subclade R1b1b2a1a2d... Does this...

"ISOGG now has U152 as R1b1a2a1a2b."

...mean that I would be reclassified, or that I am no longer U152?

My last name it Yutzy, and from what I have read, my subclade is common in the Alpine region (originated in Switzerland? My family were Swiss Anabaptist, but it spread from there to N. Italy, S. Germany, and parts of Austria and France...). Others with the same result seem to predominately be descended from the Swiss Anabaptists... My sister has studied our family history extensively and I will have to sit down with her to see how this genealogical research correlates with hers (I know she traced us to the Swiss Anabaptists, and it's been common knowledge in the family that we were Amish until a few generations back).

brianco
06-11-15, 13:04
Maybe this could be of interest:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?907-Where-did-U152-originate-and-how-where-the-early-branches-expand


Hi everyone,

I've been looking around for any of the latest information on the R1b- U-152 origins as most of the theories I've come
across are a couple years old already. Any consensus out there? The latest I can find is still Northern Italy, South-eastern France, Swiss Alps, or Bavarian region in Germany.
Thanks- Scott

mr_y82
06-11-15, 16:36
Thanks Brianco!

I meant to add the asterisk after I copied your statement... I am R1b1b2a1a2d* (23&me)

Just to make sure I am following, are you saying this subclade would be identified as R1b1a2a1a2b by the ISOGG, but would trace to the same ancestor? (Nevermind that, I think just answered my own question by cross referencing your info to the chart at the link below...)

Sorry if these are simple and or obvious questions; just trying to wrap my head around the terminology and designations (and I'm a newbie...). I will check out the forum you mentioned!

I also really enjoyed this (replaced .com with -com, as I don't have the prestige to post links yet, lol):

eupedia-com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#R1b-conquest

And I think it is helping me understand, because at first I was confused by this chart, which was "missing" my subclade, but if it's under R1b1a2a1a2b it suddenly makes more sense given your info (rather than just stopping in Anatolia with no subclades identified)! Thanks!

I also can't post the chart, it is at the site from the link above... and (replaced .com with -com)

cdn.eupedia-com/images/content/R1b-tree.gif


Hi Mr Yutzy :)

U152 is the shorthand and never changes and hopefully never will. ISOGG change their designations frequently and 23andMe do not. Our 23andMe designation is from ISOGG 2010 but if the chip was developed then I suppose I can understand their logic for keeping it, confusing though!

We should always be U152 in my opinion. Anthrogenica.com have a superb U152 subforum if you are interested!

I am a few downstream markers of U152 but only because a 60/67 str match got his BigY done ($500) :( and I was able to arrange the SNPs to be tested at Yseq.net

Are you R1b1b2a1a2d or R1b1b2a1a2d* at 23andMe? The reason I ask is the asterisk *, in this instance means negative for L2 whereas without means a 'no call'.

If you are R1b1b2a1a2d without the *, this is not a problem as Yseq.net can test this to confirm you are L2 or not for only $15 + $5 kit shipping anywhere worldwide. They then have your DNA for future sampling, so no need for any more shipping :)
I have tested many times and results usually come in only 5 weeks or less!

B.

Finnall
17-09-18, 02:10
Hi everyone,

I've been looking around for any of the latest information on the R1b- U-152 origins as most of the theories I've come
across are a couple years old already. Any consensus out there? The latest I can find is still Northern Italy, South-eastern France, Swiss Alps, or Bavarian region in Germany.
Thanks- Scott


And Austria