PDA

View Full Version : New and looking for help



JohnnieMc73
29-01-15, 23:25
Hi there,

I have just recieved my results and am really confused by what they mean. I am Scottish and as far as I can trace my Fathers line back is Scottish, specifically from the Highlands and Islands. My results came back as I-P37 and sub group I-S392 and I have been told it is specific to Britain and Ireland but is extremly rare? Then I am told it is very common in the Balkans around Croatia, Bosnia and Sebia etc. My question is...how can it be specific to Britain in Ireland if it is so common in the Balkans? Do the mean my sub group?

Thanks for any advice ;)

Melancon
30-01-15, 04:32
No; I think in all likelihood, someone/something got you confused for something in the Balkans region. You may just have a Neolithic haplogroup that was carried there by Celtic (Goidelic) peoples.

"My question is...how can it be specific to Britain in Ireland if it is so common in the Balkans?"

Alternatively; if this is true. (that your haplogroup is from the Balkans) It is also possible that one of your paternal ancestors may have been a Thracian or Illyrian (from the Balkans area) that was in the Roman army (as a colonist) and mixed with the indigenous natives. In which case; your haplogroup may be extremely ancient; almost as old as the first civilizations of the British Islands. But I think that this would be extremely rare/unlikely.

Fire Haired14
30-01-15, 05:28
I2a1-P37 is very old. It has been found in the majority of Y DNA samples from Mesolithic Europe, and probably originated in Europe well over 10,000 years ago. Modern European genetic diversity is much younger than 10,000 years. Everyone in Europe traces the majority of their blood to native Euros(WHG-ANE) and newcomers from the near east, who both admixed starting ~8,000YBP. Add to that alot of other complex history, making all Europeans having similar ancestry even within the last 5,000 years.

Most I2a1-P37 throughout Europe usually doesn't relate to recent common paternal ancestor but common Mesolithic European paternal ancestry. It means as much that a random guy from China descends from the same man who lived 50,000 years ago.

Also, popularity of a paternal lineage(Y DNA) usually is the result of a founder effect(most men trace their lineage to the same father who lived not to long ago) and not a reflection of overall ancestry. I2a1-P37 in the Balkans is an example of a founder effect, probably a very recent one.

Aberdeen
30-01-15, 08:36
Hi there,

I have just recieved my results and am really confused by what they mean. I am Scottish and as far as I can trace my Fathers line back is Scottish, specifically from the Highlands and Islands. My results came back as I-P37 and sub group I-S392 and I have been told it is specific to Britain and Ireland but is extremly rare? Then I am told it is very common in the Balkans around Croatia, Bosnia and Sebia etc. My question is...how can it be specific to Britain in Ireland if it is so common in the Balkans? Do the mean my sub group?

Thanks for any advice ;)

I assume you're talking about subclade I2a1b2, which appears in ISOGG 2015 Y-DNA Haplogroup I as L621/S392. For an explanation about this subclade, go to the Genetics section of this website and click on Y haplogroup I2 and read what Maciamo has to say about the history and distribution of I2a, and specifically L621. You'll notice the concentration of L621 in the Balkans but lower levels of it further west, including a bit of a cluster in western Ireland. If you want to talk about the fine details of anything DNA related on this forum, Maciamo and Sparkey are the experts.

sparkey
30-01-15, 16:50
S392 is more specific than P37, so let's talk about S392. S392, also known as L621, is the defining mutation common between two groups of I2. One of these groups is nicknamed "Disles" and the other is nicknamed "Dinaric." Disles is rare and most common in (but not quite exclusive to) Britain. Dinaric, although actually younger than Disles, is much, much more common and concentrates around the Balkans, although it seems to be older in Poland and Ukraine.

I don't know of any mutations that define Disles exclusively. S392 is about as specific as it gets. However, there are several mutations that Dinaric has, but Disles doesn't, including CTS10936, L147.2, and CTS5966. Perhaps you tested negative for one of these, which confirms you as Disles? That would make sense, because then it would be possible to say that "you are I2-S392 and that is most common in the Balkans" (true) and "you are in a group of I2 that is [almost] exclusive to Britain" (also true).

See Nordtvedt's tree for a good vitalization of where Disles and Dinaric are: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/Tree%20and%20Map%20for%20Hg%20I.pptx

JohnnieMc73
30-01-15, 20:45
Thanks for the replies guys, I will follow your advice and do a little research. Finding this all really interesting ;)

JohnnieMc73
30-01-15, 21:13
Hi Sparky, I have looked at my genetic signature and I can see CTS10936 but no CTS5966 or L147.2. Does that suggest Disles?

sparkey
31-01-15, 00:50
Hi Sparky, I have looked at my genetic signature and I can see CTS10936 but no CTS5966 or L147.2. Does that suggest Disles?

Does it give a + or - for CTS10936? CTS10936+ suggests Dinaric, while CTS10936- suggests Disles.

Aberdeen
31-01-15, 04:51
Thanks for the replies guy's, I will follow your advice and do a little research. Finding this all really interesting ;)

Since it appears that English (or at least Scottish) is your native language, I'm going to assume that "guy's" was just a typo and that you meant to write "guys". "Guy's" is the possessive case and not a plural form of "guy".

JohnnieMc73
31-01-15, 20:23
Does it give a + or - for CTS10936? CTS10936+ suggests Dinaric, while CTS10936- suggests Disles.
It's CTS10936+ Sparky.

JohnnieMc73
31-01-15, 22:48
Since it appears that English (or at least Scottish) is your native language, I'm going to assume that "guy's" was just a typo and that you meant to write "guys". "Guy's" is the possessive case and not a plural form of "guy".
I am really, really sorry! I have edited my earlier post and hope it now meets with your approval.

Aberdeen
31-01-15, 22:53
I am really, really sorry! I have edited my earlier post and hope it now meets with your approval.

LOL.

Yes, I am a grammar (and punctuation) nazi.

I have been known to make the occasional typo myself, but that's just to see whether people are paying attention.

sparkey
02-02-15, 17:38
It's CTS10936+ Sparky.

Sounds like I2a-Dinaric. Not many Western Europeans carry it, is there any chance that your patriline is recently from somewhere else?

I wonder if we could narrow you down some more. Do you have + or - results for any of these SNPs?:

CTS5966
CTS10228
L147.2S17250/YP204
Z16971
Y4882
A356/Z16983
Y4460
Y3118Z17855
S8201

JohnnieMc73
02-02-15, 18:08
Hi Sparky, I contacted Bernie Cullen and have emailed my results in detail and he is suggesting Disles-B. I would doubt any recent input from outside Scotland, my Paternal line has been in Central Scotland in the last 80 years and before that they were in the Islands around Skye. There was no real immigration outside of the Irish in those days.
I am CTS 5966 -
CTS 10228 -
S17520 -
S2801 -
I can't see the others listed?

sparkey
02-02-15, 20:33
Hi Sparky, I contacted Bernie Cullen and have emailed my results in detail and he is suggesting Disles-B. I would doubt any recent input from outside Scotland, my Paternal line has been in Central Scotland in the last 80 years and before that they were in the Islands around Skye. There was no real immigration outside of the Irish in those days.
I am CTS 5966 -
CTS 10228 -
S17520 -
S2801 -
I can't see the others listed?

OK, I jumped the gun, CTS5966- means that you're not I2a-Dinaric. Bernie Cullen is right, you seem to be I2a-Disles-B. I didn't even realize that Disles had recently been discovered to be split between CTS10936- and CTS10936+ groups, which means that, rather that Dinaric and Disles being 2 branches of I2-L621 (as STRs suggest), Disles split in 2 first and then Dinaric split from one of the Disles branches. Very interesting, and with some geographical implications for Dinaric.

FWIW I keep track of famous I2 carriers, but haven't found anybody famous who carries Disles yet. However you may be interested to know that ancient I2-L178 (ancestor of I2-L621) has been found in the Mesolithic (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml).

JohnnieMc73
02-02-15, 21:21
Thanks Sparky, that clears things up a little. Can I ask what you mean by the geographical implications for Dinaric?

JohnnieMc73
09-03-15, 20:37
Are there any concrete theories on where the split between Disles and Dinaric ocurred? And/or when it ocurred?

RobertColumbia
21-06-15, 21:24
....
Alternatively; if this is true. (that your haplogroup is from the Balkans) It is also possible that one of your paternal ancestors may have been a Thracian or Illyrian (from the Balkans area) that was in the Roman army (as a colonist) and mixed with the indigenous natives. In which case; your haplogroup may be extremely ancient; almost as old as the first civilizations of the British Islands. But I think that this would be extremely rare/unlikely.
Yes, this sort of thing happened, and happens, all the time. People moved around, went on trading missions to faraway ports and ended up in bed with local girls, got enslaved, ran away from home, and did all sorts of things.

JohnnieMc73
22-06-15, 14:20
I have looked a little deeper in to this over the last few months and from what I can gather it looks more like my subclade was a predecessor of Dinaric so it's unlikely I have a Illyrian/Tharacian ancestor.

sparkey
22-06-15, 19:57
I have looked a little deeper in to this over the last few months and from what I can gather it looks more like my subclade was a predecessor of Dinaric so it's unlikely I have a Illyrian/Tharacian ancestor. That's a reasonable summary, and would be my guess as well.

JohnnieMc73
22-06-15, 20:27
That's a reasonable summary, and would be my guess as well.

Thanks Sparky! I suppose only time will tell how/when the subclade came to UK.