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LeBrok
02-02-15, 04:39
Started as off topic :http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30849-New-Leak-CWC-73-Yamna-modern-North-Euros-50-Yamna?p=449039#post449039

Goga
02-02-15, 19:57
..And you're not Dutch, and never will be.If I and my people wanted to be someone else, then we would be someone else. The only thing my people want is to be themselves, the Kurds, and liberate our homeland Kurdistan. My people are fighting for our identity and then you come up with this kind of nonsense. In a FREE society you're a human and free being when you are yourself and when others won't determine your identity. I don't know who you are, but I was born as a Kurd and I will die as a KURD!

isbara
02-02-15, 22:03
If I and my people wanted to be someone else, then we would be someone else. The only thing my people want is to be themselves, the Kurds, and liberate our homeland Kurdistan. My people are fighting for our identity and then you come up with this kind of nonsense. In a FREE society you're a human and free being when you are yourself and when others won't determine your identity. I don't know who you are, but I was born as a Kurd and I will die as a KURD!
I agree that freedom is very important, but does being a puppet of another country give you any kind of freedom? Freedom means being completely independent. You are not independent if you are an instrument of the CIA, and if you think you are trying to liberate Kurdistan by the slogan "biji serok obama", you are living in a complete illusion. The imaginery goal(which will never be achieved) of the intelligence of the US is to build a second Israel(Northern Iraq, Syria and parts of Türkiye), and by this they are using the Kurds to divide(will never succeed) the independent Türkiye.

Wasnt Saddam a puppet of Iraq? After the 1st world war, wasnt Iraq under control of England, and is England not a combined state with the US? Yes it is. So, in fact was it not the US that bombed and massacred the Kurds by using the regime of Saddam? Yes it was. So, how are my Kurd brothers are going to find any kind of freedom if they are proud to be a puppet of the US that has killed so many Kurds in northern Iraq in order to activate them and use them?

Did you know that the terrorists called PKK/PYD were being leaded by the Delta Force military unit of the US army during the battle of Aynelarab(Kobani, Syria)? And did the US not loose this battle in Aynelarab? And did you know that Kenan Evren(army president of Türkiye in 1980's) was a puppet of the US, and that the coup d'etat done by him has nothing to do with the Turkish state of MUSTAFA KEMAL ATATÜRK? And did you know that before 1980 there was not even a bit of a problem between Turks and Kurds, and that there is still not even a single problem between us, and that our families are combined by marriages?

Did you also know that in the 9th century AD, during the establishment of the Hungary state, one of the Hunnic(descendents of Huns of 5th century) tribes that established the country Hungary was called "KÜRT"? So what i am trying to say in here is that Turks and Kurds have the same origins, we should not hate each other just because the CIA does wants this to happen? We must think logically, freedom is achieved with logic and completely being independent. The first condition for being free for a group of people is to be independent and not being used by foreign intellegences. Therefore why not battle for a more free and independent Türkiye like it was during the times of our father Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, in stead of battling for a second Israel(hidden under a mask of a promised fake Kurdistan) that will only make the Kurdish people in East Anatolia slaves and very poor(except the feodal tribe leaders that will be used by the US and kept rich)?

Alan
02-02-15, 22:18
I agree that freedom is very important, but does being a puppet of another country give you any kind of freedom? Freedom means being completely independent. You are not independent if you are an instrument of the CIA, and if you think you are trying to liberate Kurdistan by the slogan "biji serok obama", you are living in a complete illusion. The imaginery goal(which will never be achieved) of the intelligence of the US is to build a second Israel(Northern Iraq, Syria and parts of Türkiye), and by this they are using the Kurds to divide(will never succeed) the independent Türkiye.

But Turkey is very independent isn't it? even your borders are drawn by the Brtish and French so who are you to talk about fake borders?
List me one country in this world which is completely independent from other. You are living in a dreamworld.

If I had more time, I would give a proper answer.

LeBrok
02-02-15, 23:01
I agree that freedom is very important, but does being a puppet of another country give you any kind of freedom? Freedom means being completely independent. You are not independent if you are an instrument of the CIA, and if you think you are trying to liberate Kurdistan by the slogan "biji serok obama", you are living in a complete illusion. The imaginery goal(which will never be achieved) of the intelligence of the US is to build a second Israel(Northern Iraq, Syria and parts of Türkiye), and by this they are using the Kurds to divide(will never succeed) the independent Türkiye.

Wasnt Saddam a puppet of Iraq? After the 1st world war, wasnt Iraq under control of England, and is England not a combined state with the US? Yes it is. So, in fact was it not the US that bombed and massacred the Kurds by using the regime of Saddam? Yes it was. So, how are my Kurd brothers are going to find any kind of freedom if they are proud to be a puppet of the US that has killed so many Kurds in northern Iraq in order to activate them and use them?

Did you know that the terrorists called PKK/PYD were being leaded by the Delta Force military unit of the US army during the battle of Aynelarab(Kobani, Syria)? And did the US not loose this battle in Aynelarab? And did you know that Kenan Evren(army president of Türkiye in 1980's) was a puppet of the US, and that the coup d'etat done by him has nothing to do with the Turkish state of MUSTAFA KEMAL ATATÜRK? And did you know that before 1980 there was not even a bit of a problem between Turks and Kurds, and that there is still not even a single problem between us, and that our families are combined by marriages?

Did you also know that in the 9th century AD, during the establishment of the Hungary state, one of the Hunnic(descendents of Huns of 5th century) tribes that established the country Hungary was called "KÜRT"? So what i am trying to say in here is that Turks and Kurds have the same origins, we should not hate each other just because the CIA does wants this to happen? We must think logically, freedom is achieved with logic and completely being independent. The first condition for being free for a group of people is to be independent and not being used by foreign intellegences. Therefore why not battle for a more free and independent Türkiye like it was during the times of our father Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, in stead of battling for a second Israel(hidden under a mask of a promised fake Kurdistan) that will only make the Kurdish people in East Anatolia slaves and very poor(except the feodal tribe leaders that will be used by the US and kept rich)?
Did you get all these "information" from Turkey's education system?

If US controls Iraq, why is Iran pumping oil in Iraq? Why are Iran's troops fighting ISIS in Iraq?


Did you also know that in the 9th century AD, during the establishment of the Hungary state, one of the Hunnic(descendents of Huns of 5th century) tribes that established the country Hungary was called "KÜRT"? And Kurt is also a german name, so by your linguistic connections, all Kurts are Kurds.


So what i am trying to say in here is that Turks and Kurds have the same origins, How can you explain this, if linguistically Kurds are descendants of Indo-Europeans, Turks are not.


that will only make the Kurdish people in East Anatolia slaves and very poor Actually the Kurdish autonomous region of Iraq was the most prosperous and peaceful in the region, till ISIS came. Kurds proved that they can run their own country in a good order.


So, how are my Kurd brothers are going to find any kind of freedom You want brothers? Give Kurd their freedom and later you can ask them if they want to be your brothers and sisters.

Stop dreaming about Othoman Empire anymore. It is not going to happen. You better pray that ISIS revolution won't spread into Turkey and destroys your country like in Syria. I'm sure many Sunnis in Turkey would love that.

isbara
02-02-15, 23:06
But Turkey is very independent isn't it? even your borders are drawn by the Brtish and French so who are you to talk about fake borders?
List me one country in this world which is completely independent from other. You are living in a dreamworld.

If I had more time, I know how to give you a proper response.

Yes, Türkiye is independent. We Turks and Kurds(majority were Turks) fought side by side and defeated the British, French, Italians, Greeks, Tsar Russians, etc. Dont you know of the dictations of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk during the negotiations of Lausanne(Switzerland) in which the US and the UK blamed Atatürk for being like Genghis Khan? We forced our borders, and got what we wanted. After the establishment of the Turkish democratic state, Atatürk managed to get Hatay into our borders, and if Atatürk were to live a bit more Musul and Kerkük would have been also a part of Türkiye, all legally rights were pointing to this direction.

The Turkish War of Independence was totally independent done by the Turkish nation under the command of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, and the victory became a vital model for all countries that sought freedom against the UK/US. Mao Zedong achieved independence by imitating the model of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. Within the bags of Che Guevara there was found books written by Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. I can say that Türkiye, Soviet Union and UK/US were the only independent countries after the 1st WW. After the US divided the Soviet Union, Russia is not independent anymore, but has made great progress during the period of Putin.

After 2nd WW, China also became independent(under leading of Mao) by defeating the groups that were puppets of the UK. So, to put it all together, nowadays, the only free countries are Türkiye, China, Russia, Cuba and US/UK. The CIA knows about this, and after the fall of the Soviet Union their goal is to divide our independent Turkish state, which has ended dramatically with a loss for them, after the defeat in the puppets battle in Syria. The US is using the Kurds for these own goals(and do not care at all about the Kurds), do you find it realistic to get a free Kurdistan by following orders and becoming a slave of the US? What do you think about the Kurds being a tribe of the Huns in the 9th century? So, why do Turks and Kurds whom have the same origins have to be enemies, instead of battling against the psychological warfare of the US?

LeBrok
02-02-15, 23:17
After 2nd WW, China also became independent(under leading of Mao) by defeating the groups that were puppets of the UK. So, to put it all together, nowadays, the only free countries are Türkiye, China, Russia, Cuba and US/UK. The CIA knows about this, and after the fall of the Soviet Union their goal is to divide our independent Turkish state, which has ended dramatically with a loss for them, after the defeat in the puppets battle in Syria. The US is using the Kurds for these own goals(and do not care at all about the Kurds), do you find it realistic to get a free Kurdistan by following orders and becoming a slave of the US? What do you think about the Kurds being a tribe of the Huns in the 9th century? So, why do Turks and Kurds whom have the same origins have to be enemies, instead of battling against the psychological warfare of the US?
This is insane lol. Tell us who controls Mozambique? Who controls Venezuela?

Goga
02-02-15, 23:46
crimson & clover

Goga
02-02-15, 23:47
So, why do Turks and Kurds whom have the same origins have to be enemies, instead of battling against the psychological warfare of the US?So forget about Turkish and start speak Kurdish, for GOD sake.

isbara
03-02-15, 00:10
Did you get all these "information" from Turkey's education system?

If US controls Iraq, why is Iran pumping oil in Iraq? Why are Iran's troops fighting ISIS in Iraq?



Read the following text at wiki Iraq–United_Kingdom_relations to have some information about the involvement of the UK in Iraq.


The history of British–Iraqi relations date back to the creation of Iraq in 1920, when it was founded by Great Britain; by establishing separate provinces from Mosul to Basra.

And then read the following links wiki British_America and historyworld wrldhis PlainTextHistories to have some basic information about the connections of the British and the US.

You will see that the country Iraq was founded by England after the 1st World War(1914-1918) and that the UK is the founder of the US colonies. After 1918, there has not been a single war of independence in Iraq, and without a war of independence the control of the Iraq country will not be lost, and it means that UK is still under control of this country, but after the 2nd WW uses their puppet brother state US, to gain control over the country. But it is a fact that the army of the UK and the US are so weak, they do not succeed in managing the country called Iraq, therefore they are forced to invade this country(2003) to keep the control of it, but still they fail. Only thing the US is doing, is comitting a genocide of almost 2 million Muslims in Iraq between 2003-2015. The UK and US has not brought freedom in Iraq, instead made Iraq a living hell, and will not bring freedom to my Kurdish brothers!


And Kurt is also a german name, so by your linguistic connections, all Kurts are Kurds.

No it is not Kurt, but Kürt, the exact same linguistic word that is used for the modern Kurdish population. "Kurt" also means "wolf" in Turkish, but "Kürt" does refer to an ethnic group. So, i advice you to make some research before commenting.

Read the following page: wiki Magyar_tribes


According to András Róna-Tas the locality in which the Hungarians, the Manicha-Er group, emerged was between the Volga river and the Ural Mountains. Between the 8th and 5th centuries BC, the Magyars embarked upon their independent existence and the early period of the proto Hungarian language began.

Around 830, the seven related tribes (Jenő, Kér, Keszi, Kürt-Gyarmat, Megyer, Nyék and Tarján) formed a confederation in Etelköz, called "Hétmagyar" (ie, "The Seven Magyars"). Their leaders, the Seven chieftains of the Magyars, besides Álmos included Előd, Ond, Kond, Tas, Huba and Töhötöm, took a blood oath, swearing eternal loyalty to Álmos. Presumably, the Magyar tribes consisted of 108 clans.

The confederation of the tribes was probably led by two high princes: the kende (their spiritual ruler) and the gyula (their military leader). The high princes were either elected by the leaders of the tribes or appointed by the Khagan of the Khazars who had been exerting influence over the Magyars. Around 862 the seven tribes separated from the Khazars.

Before 881 three Turkic tribes rebelled against the rule of the Khagan of the Khazars, but they were suppressed. After their defeat they left the Khazar Empire and joined voluntarily to the confederation Hétmagyar. The three tribes was organised into one tribe, called Kabar, and later they played the role of vanguard and rear guard during the joint military actions of the confederation. With the joining of the three tribes to the previous seven ones, they became ten, which made them On-ogur (Ten Arrows), one of the possible origins for the name Hungarian.


How can you explain this, if linguistically Kurds are descendants of Indo-Europeans, Turks are not.

Linguistically, we must look at the language of Kurds, is there one common Kurdish language? No, Zazaki and Kurmanci are complete different languages and are not dialects of each other. A Zaza cannot understand what a Kurmanci says. And analyzing the word "Kurman" linguistically, we can see that this is arisen from the word "Kuman" which is a commanly known ancient Kipchak Turkish dialect. Look at the ancient Codex Cumanicus and you will understand what i mean. wiki Codex_Cumanicus

The root of this situation lies beneath the fact that the dynasty of the Selcukid state(11th-13th centuries) spoke an official state language that was a mix of Turkish, Persian and Arabic. This mix transformed in the following centuries into new dialects(eventually into seperate languages) like Kurmanci and Zazaki that were used by Kurdish populations.


Actually the Kurdish autonomous region of Iraq was the most prosperous and peaceful in the region, till ISIS came. Kurds proved that they can run their own country in a good order.
You want brothers? Give Kurd their freedom and later you can ask them if they want to be your brothers and sisters.Stop dreaming about Othoman Empire anymore. It is not going to happen. You better pray that ISIS revolution won't spread into Turkey and destroys your country like in Syria. I'm sure many Sunnis in Turkey would love that.

You are wrong, the modern Kurdish populations live in a way which was done in the medieval times were the tribe leaders were rich, and the majority of the populations were poor and suffered all the time and had no money at all and were slaves of the feudal tribe leaders. This is no way to achieve freedom or democracy. And we must aknowledge that the modern Kurdish feudal tribe leaders like Barzani are all slaves of the US, and are only making theirselves more rich, and have no intentions in making their populations richer!

And also, Ayn Al-Arab(Kobani) is not even a city, and has a population close to 45,000. Even with the support of the US army Delta Forces, the PKK/PYD and the US could not defend such a little place. And the PKK is not representing the Kurdish populations, the PKK is a puppet of the CIA, and is full with US intellengence agents, US soldiers, and Armenians that are not Muslims. Tell me something, how is such a weak terrorist group that cannot even defend a little place with 45,000 population, supposed to manage an imaginery second Israel(that is camouflaged with the name "Kurdistan")? Also, the El Kaide and ISIS are again another terrorist organizations that are created and still being used by the US. Why was it not a problem for the US when the ISIS was killing and massacring innocent people in Syria in order to defeat Esad to achieve the goals of the US, and became a problem when getting out of control of the US CIA? You must admit that the US has lost the puppet war in Syria and that the puppet battle of Ayn Al-Arab between the US and Turkish armed formes was the decisive final move in the Syrian War that ended with the victory of the Turkish Armed Formes, and know that the terrorist monsters that the US created will not hesitate to become puppets of other forces in the Middle East in exchange for money. As a conclusion, the US has no power anymore and cant reach any goals in the Middle East, the US is the biggest terrorist state in the world. China is dominating the world economy, and Russia is becoming more independent in the past couple of years, and the US economy is becoming more and more poor and is doomed to loose and cant do anything anymore in the Middle East.

isbara
03-02-15, 00:19
Turkey is a terrorist state. Turks are Muslims and I'm NOT. I'm an Ezdi Kurd. I don't want to be part of a Muslim Islamofascist terrorist state. When the Yezidism will become an official religion of Turkey and when Kurdish will become an offcial and first language of Turkey, then I'm going to talk with you about the brotherhood of men. When my native Kurdish language will be spoken in Ankara by the government and when you Muslim Turks are going to accept my Iranic Ezidi culture, sure then I will accept you Altaics as my brothers.

The best you can do is dream further(because it is not going to happen) and live further being a proud slave of the US that killed 2 millions innocent people in Iraq, i dont want to seperate people by religion or ethnic group, Muslim or not, does not matter, 2 million people are massacred by the US, and are still being proud of participating in the unhuman projects of the US, you should be ashamed! During the Ottoman period, every ethnic group lived in peace in Iraq, look what happened only during the past 12 years!

Goga
03-02-15, 00:25
And also, Ayn Al-Arab(Kobani) is not even a city, and has a population close to 45,000. Even with the support of the US army Delta Forces, the PKK/PYD and the US could not defend such a little place.PKK defeated your people. What are you going to do when we, Kurd, are going to declare an independent Canton in Amed, a city of millions of Kurds. You couldn't even defeat a small town called Kobani. In Kobani don't live Arabs so it's Kobani, so it has nothing to do with Ayn Al-Arab or something. If your people will continue to play with fire, Ankara and Constantinople will burn too. You like it or not, Turkey is finished, it's 21 century the age of supercomputers and microchips, we don't live in the Middle-aged anymore. Kurdish must be the first language of Turkey, ok?

isbara
03-02-15, 00:26
So forget about Turkish and start speak Kurdish, for GOD sake, inshallahalalalala...
PKK could not even defend Aynel Arab(Kobani), and your terrorist militants ran away like 5 year old girls from ISIS, and guess what the Turkish Army accepted and defended these cowards into our borders. Tell me something, how can a terrorist group that cannot even defend a village, manage such a big country. To do this, you need to have an ancient tradition of managing a state. Is there even one independent Kurdish state in the last 1000 years? And how can you trust the US that used Saddam that killed thousands of Kurds(Halabja chemical attack)? The US is using the Kurds and will throw them into the trash clan after they are finished using you guys.

LeBrok
03-02-15, 00:27
Read the following text at wiki Iraq–United_Kingdom_relations to have some information about the involvement of the UK in Iraq.



And then read the following links wiki British_America and historyworld wrldhis PlainTextHistories to have some basic information about the connections of the British and the US.

You will see that the country Iraq was founded by England after the 1st World War(1914-1918) and that the UK is the founder of the US colonies. After 1918, there has not been a single war of independence in Iraq, and without a war of independence the control of the Iraq country will not be lost, and it means that UK is still under control of this country, but after the 2nd WW uses their puppet brother state US, to gain control over the country. But it is a fact that the army of the UK and the US are so weak, they do not succeed in managing the country called Iraq, therefore they are forced to invade this country(2003) to keep the control of it, but still they fail. Only thing the US is doing, is comitting a genocide of almost 2 million Muslims in Iraq between 2003-2015. The UK and US has not brought freedom in Iraq, instead made Iraq a living hell, and will not bring freedom to my Kurdish brothers!



No it is not Kurt, but Kürt, the exact same linguistic word that is used for the modern Kurdish population. "Kurt" also means "wolf" in Turkish, but "Kürt" does refer to an ethnic group. So, i advice you to make some research before commenting.

Read the following page: wiki Magyar_tribes





Linguistically, we must look at the language of Kurds, is there one common Kurdish language? No, Zazaki and Kurmanci are complete different languages and are not dialects of each other. A Zaza cannot understand what a Kurmanci says. And analyzing the word "Kurman" linguistically, we can see that this is arisen from the word "Kuman" which is a commanly known ancient Kipchak Turkish dialect. Look at the ancient Codex Cumanicus and you will understand what i mean. wiki Codex_Cumanicus

The root of this situation lies beneath the fact that the dynasty of the Selcukid state(11th-13th centuries) spoke an official state language that was a mix of Turkish, Persian and Arabic. This mix transformed in the following centuries into new dialects(eventually into seperate languages) like Kurmanci and Zazaki that were used by Kurdish populations.


You are wrong, the modern Kurdish populations live in a way which was done in the medieval times were the tribe leaders were rich, and the majority of the populations were poor and suffered all the time and had no money at all and were slaves of the feudal tribe leaders. This is no way to achieve freedom or democracy. And we must aknowledge that the modern Kurdish feudal tribe leaders like Barzani are all slaves of the US, and are only making theirselves more rich, and have no intentions in making their populations richer!

And also, Ayn Al-Arab(Kobani) is not even a city, and has a population close to 45,000. Even with the support of the US army Delta Forces, the PKK/PYD and the US could not defend such a little place. And the PKK is not representing the Kurdish populations, the PKK is a puppet of the CIA, and is full with US intellengence agents, US soldiers, and Armenians that are not Muslims. Tell me something, how is such a weak terrorist group that cannot even defend a little place with 45,000 population, supposed to manage an imaginery second Israel(that is camouflaged with the name "Kurdistan")? Also, the El Kaide and ISIS are again another terrorist organizations that are created and still being used by the US. Why was it not a problem for the US when the ISIS was killing and massacring innocent people in Syria in order to defeat Esad to achieve the goals of the US, and became a problem when getting out of control of the US CIA? You must admit that the US has lost the puppet war in Syria and that the puppet battle of Ayn Al-Arab between the US and Turkish armed formes was the decisive final move in the Syrian War that ended with the victory of the Turkish Armed Formes, and know that the terrorist monsters that the US created will not hesitate to become puppets of other forces in the Middle East in exchange for money. As a conclusion, the US has no power anymore and cant reach any goals in the Middle East, the US is the biggest terrorist state in the world. China is dominating the world economy, and Russia is becoming more independent in the past couple of years, and the US economy is becoming more and more poor and is doomed to loose and cant do anything anymore in the Middle East.
You are a romantic dreamer of a Great Ottoman Empire. Turkey is the best, independent, special and a holy place. The rest of the world is evil, sick, stupid and controlled.
Are you even conscious what simplistically idiotic vision of the world sits in your head?
Who controls Mozambique and Madagascar?

Linguistically, we must look at the language of Kurds, is there one common Kurdish language? No, Zazaki and Kurmanci are complete different languages and are not dialects of each other. A Zaza cannot understand what a Kurmanci says. And analyzing the word "Kurman" linguistically, we can see that this is arisen from the word "Kuman" which is a commanly known ancient Kipchak Turkish dialect. I'm sure Turkish is intelligible for both of them. All linguistic "brothers".

Goga
03-02-15, 00:32
The best you can do is dream further(because it is not going to happen)Ok, then bye. I'm finished with if you don't want to learn Kurdish and don't accept my Ezidi Iranic culture. I'm very disappointed that you don't want to learn Kurdish. Go bother someone else. The dogs bark, but the caravan goes on. I'm done, bye bye...

isbara
03-02-15, 00:35
PKK defeated your Islamic Altaic kinsmen. What are you going to do when we, Kurd, are going to declare an independent Canton in Amed, a city of millions of Kurds. You couldn't even defeat a small town called Kobani. In Kobani don't live Arabs so it's Kobani, so it has nothing to do with Ayn Al-Arab or something. If your race will continue to play with fire, Ankara and Constantinople will burn too. You like it or not, Turkey is finished, it's 21 century the age of supercomputers and microchips, we don't live in the Middle-aged anymore. Kurdish must be the first language of Turkey and my religion the Yezidism must be the most important religion of Turkey, ok?

Kobani is a fake name, and has no scientific historical origin, the correct name of the location is Ayn Al-Arab, and the battle that took place in here between the puppets of the US and the puppets of Türkiye ended in the victory of the Turkish Armed Forces. You cant do anything, and if you terrorists attempt to do such thing, i myself and 70 million Turks are ready to defeat the puppets of the US and UK like we did during our War of Independence(1919-1923). But like i said earlier, Turks and Kurds are brothers, and the PKK is a pathetic instrument full with Armenian militants. Your leader öcalan(in prison) is of Armenian origin, and did you know that he was was a MİT agent, and did you see the videos of öcalan in which our Commander Hasan Atilla Uğur crushed him and forced him to betray his own people? He cried like a 5 year old girl, and the PKK is such a weak group that has no honour and is proud to be used by several international intelligences!

isbara
03-02-15, 00:37
You are a romantic dreamer of a Great Ottoman Empire. Turkey is the best, independent, special and a holy place. The rest of the world is evil, sick, stupid and controlled.

No! Not the rest of the world, only the US, UK and their puppets are evil, the rest is far from being evil!

isbara
03-02-15, 00:40
Ok, then bye. I'm finished with if you don't want to learn Kurdish and don't accept my Ezidi Iranic culture. I'm very disappointed that you don't want to learn Kurdish. Go bother someone else. The dogs bark, but the caravan goes on. In your case the Islamic Muslim wolves from the Altai. I'm done, bye bye...
Only people that are not right in their cause, and cannot come with solid arguments, will begin with insulting. You cannot conduct a healthy discussion, because you know that i am right, shame on you!

Goga
03-02-15, 01:12
Only people that are not right in their cause, and cannot come with solid arguments, will begin with insulting. You cannot conduct a healthy discussion, because you know that i am right, shame on you!Ok, I'm sorry for the insults. It's a mistake and it's very childish and foolish of me. I'm going to delete it. In general I don't like insulting people. Sometimes I become racist when I talk with racists, an eye for an eye principle. Kurds live next to the Turks for 1000 years and with some of your Anatolian ancestors even longer. Genetically there’re similarities between us, because we live in the same region. We're neighbours and we still need to find a way to get along. I don't hate Turkish people, only their government (Erdogan). But I still don't want to go further discussing about this issue with you. I don't discuss politics with Turks in general because we have always different opinions and we never understand each other. Maybe you're a nice & cool guy and we could hangout for a drink. I like French congnac very much.

But I'm still very disappointed that you don't want to learn Kurdish. It's insulting, do you think my native language is ungly or something? What do you have against my language? Respect my language and identity, and I'll respect yours! Live and let live!

isbara
03-02-15, 01:48
Ok, I'm sorry for the insults. It's a mistake and it's very childish and foolish of me. I'm going to delete it. In general I don't like insulting people. Sometimes I become racist when I talk with racists, an eye for an eye principle. Kurds live next to the Turks for 1000 years and with some of your Anatolian ancestors even longer. Genetically there’re similarities between us, because we live in the same region. We're neighbours and we still need to find a way to get along. I don't hate Turkish people, only their government (Erdogan). But I still don't want to go further discussing about this issue with you. I don't discuss politics with Turks in general because we have always different opinions and we never understand each other. Maybe you're a nice & cool guy and we could hangout for a drink. I like French congnac very much.

But I'm still very disappointed that you don't want to learn Kurdish. It's insulting, do you think my native language is ungly or something? What do you have against my language? Respect my language and identity, and I'll respect yours! Live and let live!
Again, the name "Kürt" is the name of one of the most important tribes that established the Hungarian state in the 9th century. This means that Kurds are just like the Turks of Hunnic origin. And according to Persian sources the nation of the Huns in the 5th century is called "Turk", so it means that Kurds are of Turkish origin. Tell me something, do you have any source indicating the presence of Kurds before the 9th century? No, you dont have, so please stop with the fairytales and the non scientific gossips.

About the Kurdish subject, i am asking you another question? Can a Zazaki understand what a Kurmanci talks? No! And it is scientifically proven that they are not even dialects of each other, which means that there is no such thing as a Kurdish language. I am respecting all languages, and i accept Kurds as my brothers, what more do you want? You are the one insulting, and you are the one that is a racist and a Turk hater. All that is said is an imaginery Indo-European or Indo-Iranian nation, there is no such thing, it is not right scientifically. Most of the so called modern imaginery Indo-European or Indo-Iranian nations have their origin in the earliest Scythians/Sakhas, which are of Turkish origin. And before this all have their origin in the Sumerians(Kengers), of whom the language is proven to be of Turkish origin.

Sile
03-02-15, 07:01
Again, the name "Kürt" is the name of one of the most important tribes that established the Hungarian state in the 9th century. This means that Kurds are just like the Turks of Hunnic origin. And according to Persian sources the nation of the Huns in the 5th century is called "Turk", so it means that Kurds are of Turkish origin. Tell me something, do you have any source indicating the presence of Kurds before the 9th century? No, you dont have, so please stop with the fairytales and the non scientific gossips.

About the Kurdish subject, i am asking you another question? Can a Zazaki understand what a Kurmanci talks? No! And it is scientifically proven that they are not even dialects of each other, which means that there is no such thing as a Kurdish language. I am respecting all languages, and i accept Kurds as my brothers, what more do you want? You are the one insulting, and you are the one that is a racist and a Turk hater. All that is said is an imaginery Indo-European or Indo-Iranian nation, there is no such thing, it is not right scientifically. Most of the so called modern imaginery Indo-European or Indo-Iranian nations have their origin in the earliest Scythians/Sakhas, which are of Turkish origin. And before this all have their origin in the Sumerians(Kengers), of whom the language is proven to be of Turkish origin.

Read your history, the turkic people did not enter modern Turkey until just over a 1000 years ago.........clearly genetics show the majority of modern turks are NOT turkic people.

isbara
03-02-15, 14:13
Read your history, the turkic people did not enter modern Turkey until just over a 1000 years ago.........clearly genetics show the majority of modern turks are NOT turkic people.

I know my history, you go and learn my history. Turks entered Türkiye during the 4th and 5th century when the Huns(=Turks) settled in here. Read the sources written by Priscus, 5th-century Roman diplomat and Greek historian, and you'll see that im right. And you probably also didnt know that during the Battle of Manzikert(1071) in Türkiye, the Byzantine(Eastern Roma) army was built of Christian Turks of Hunnic origin that settled in Eastern Roma during the 4th and 5th centuries. These Turkish Huns who were under command of Romanos IV Diogenes, traded sides when they realized that the Turkish Selcukids were of the same origin as them.

Genetics do proof that majority of the Turks are of SAME ORIGIN as ancient Turks, and also in order to take any serious scientific conclusions there must be available thousands of ancient dna studies done which is not the case right now obviously. So, with so few, almost no ancient dna studies, and the fact that the older not recent ancient dna studies does contain contamination and therefore the fact that the results of these few older studies are not reliable, IT IS NOT SCIENTIFIC to draw any conclusions just to fulfill your hate crime feelings inside your hearth.

We know that the Sumerians(6000-8000 years ago) are the root of civilization, and are the root of all modern Eurasian nations. We know that the Sumerian language was equal to modern Turkish language. This means that the Turks are the root of all modern cultures. Knowing the fact that mutations occured tens of thousands of years ago, how do we know certainly that before the occurrence of certain mutations, that the people responsible for these mutations did not live together before and after the occurrence of the mutations that led to new haplogroups?
For example, lets take the K-M9 marker, what if a group of people with the M9 marker lived 40,000-50,000 years ago together as one nation when there was no other culture except the Sumerian/Turkish culture, and that after tens of thousands of years ago when new mutations occured out of the M9 marker people these people kept together and did not break up just until the time after the Sumerians(when new cultures did arise)? This means that many haplogroups could have lived together for tens of thousands of years ago despite the occurence of new mutations. Same situation of relations can be thought of between the F-M89 and K-M9 marker, or between Haplogroup CF and K.

All this migration routes, facts and more can only be proven with the existence of tens of thousands of reliable ancient dna. This is obviously not happened yet, because there are so few ancient dna studies. Also, i can show you easily that every haplogroup found in the small amount of dna studies done about modern Türkiye, is also found in a majority of certain Eurasian(From Siberia to Mongolia to Central Asia to the Balkans) Turkish tribes. So, Turks of Türkiye are 100% of ANCIENT TURKISH ORIGIN, anyone saying the contrary is wrong, and if they cannot come with proof they are comitting a hate crime against modern Turks, and therefore they are not to be taken seriously in the scientific world.

Aberdeen
03-02-15, 15:18
Isbara, the problem with what you are saying is that none of your "facts" are actually facts. The Huns were not Turks and the Hungarians are Caucasians. The Turks who invaded and conquered Turkey beginning about 1000 years ago were pastoralists from Central Asia who became moslems after being conquered by Arabs. The Turks gradually went from being servants to being soldiers for the Arabs, eventually taking over as they migrated west. It wasn't until the Turks conquered Babylon in 1055 AD that they first were able to menace the Greek territories in Anatolia. The actual Turkish tribesmen were always a small minority in Anatolia but, as professional mercenaries, were able to impose their religion, language and culture by violence. It's too bad the European powers were too exhausted after World War I to properly enforce the partition of Turkey. That would have put an end to aggression by Turkified Anatolians.

isbara
03-02-15, 16:01
Isbara, the problem with what you are saying is that none of your "facts" are actually facts. The Huns were not Turks and the Hungarians are Caucasians.

The name of the tribe of Mo-tu(3th-2th centuries BC), the founder of the Xiongnu Hunnic state, is described as "Tu-ku (T’u-ko)" in ancient Chinese documents. "Tu-ku (T’u-ko)" is equal to the word "Turk", it means that this shows that the fact is that Huns are of Turkish origin. Also another very solid fact is the content of an ancient Persian source in the year 420 AD, whom describes the Altaic populations of around Central Asia as "Türk Hun". Also it is a fact that Efrâsiyâb(=Alp Er Tunga) the founder of the Scythian/Sakha state is of Turkish origin. Also nowadays Yakutia/Sakha Republic is a modern fact that Scythians are of Turkish origin. Look at the Divani Lugati Türk written in the 11th century by Mahmood Kashgari that confirms that Efrâsiyâb(Iranian-Turanian khan) is of Turkish origin. Also when you read the writings of Priscus(5th century AD)(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priscus), he constantly describes the Huns as "Scythian", he also names other populations as "Scythian". This shows that there are a lot of other nations during the 5th centuries whom are of Turkish Scythian origin.

Read the contents of the ancient sources provided at the following link to see that i am right: http://www.islamansiklopedisi.info/dia/pdf/c41/c410268.pdf


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It's too bad the European powers were too exhausted after World War I to properly enforce the partition of Turkey. That would have put an end to aggression by Turkified Anatolians.
This statement obviously proofs that you are commiting a hate crime against Turks, and are not providing any kind of historical fact based on real historical sources. If you look at modern Anatolian village names, you see that most of them have their origins in 4th-5th century Hunnic tribes, that migrated and settled within the East Roman empire, and became later Christians. A majority of modern Anatolian "Rum's"(Roman citizens), are of Hunnic origin, and these populations have allied with the Selcukids. All in all, Turks were in Anatolia already in 4th-5th century AD. And not to forget about the Sumerians that spoke a Turkish language, this is almost 8000 years ago from now, so Turks lived in Türkiye 8000 years ago!

And know that the British and their slaves were not tired or exhausted after the WW1, they got beated by us Turks, and run away from Anatolian lands like cowards.

Look at what William David Upshaw says about Atatürk at this link http://www.turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=139&t=7187:


"... Andlaşma, Timurlenk kadar hunhar. Müthiş İvan kadar sefih ve kafatasları piramidi üzerine oturan Cengiz Han kadar kepaze olan bir diktatörün zekice yürüttüğü politikasının bir toplamıdır. Bu canavar, savaştan bıkmış bir dünyaya, bütün uygar uluslara onursuzluk getiren bir diplomatik andlaşma kabul ettirmiştir. Buna her yerde bir Türk zaferi dediler. Ve eski dünya parlamentolarını bunu kabule ikna ettikten sonra, büyük sermaye gurupları, soğukkanlı ticaret erbabı ve giderek güya bazı din temsilcileri bile, Türkiye'yi uygar uluslar masasında, uluslararası bir konuk durumuna yücelterek, Amerika'yı yüksek ülkülerinden uzaklaştırmada birleştiler.' Amerikan senatörünün Hunhar Timurlenk, Sefih Müthiş İvan ve kafatası piramidi üzerinde oturan Cengiz Han'a benzettiği kişi, emperyalizme karşı Türkiye halkının ulusal kurtuluş savaşına önderlik eden Mustafa Kemal'dir.»

In short he says that Mustafa Kemal Atatürk has dictated his terms at the threaty of Lausanne to the British, so strong and smart as Timur and Genghis Khan. It means that the War of Independence was a huge and first lost of the British empire that was ended in the supreme victory of the Turks.

Aberdeen
03-02-15, 16:22
Isbara, repeating something doesn't make it true. If you want to learn something about Sumerian, for example, there's lots of stuff available on the internet, based on all the clay tablets containing Sumerian writing that have been found. And while the experts still argue about how or whether Sumerian is connected to other Middle Eastern languages, no knowledgeable person has ever argued that Sumerian is connected to the Turkish languages of Asia. Turkish got to Turkey by immigration of nomads - that's a fact. While a lot of the genetics of Anatolians comes from the distant past in that area, that's because the Turkish invaders were relatively few in number compared to the Anatolian natives. But barbarian pastoralists often triumph over more civilized groups. There are lots of precedents for that.

Ataturk only got away with what he did because the European powers were exhausted by years of war and didn't want to fight anymore. And the people of western Europe didn't see the Greek Orthodox as better allies than the Turk 100 years ago, but most of them see now what a mistake their countries made in the aftermath of WWI.

Alan
03-02-15, 16:36
Damn exams. Wait until the end of next week and I will give your proper response. But good that you gave the people here an inside of what you think. What this guy is preaching here is nothing new, it was part of the Turkish education system for over 8 decades and still many people believe it.

For more inside to the education System, read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Language_Theory

isbara
03-02-15, 16:50
Isbara, repeating something doesn't make it true. If you want to learn something about Sumerian, for example, there's lots of stuff available on the internet, based on all the clay tablets containing Sumerian writing that have been found. And while the experts still argue about how or whether Sumerian is connected to other Middle Eastern languages, no knowledgeable person has ever argued that Sumerian is connected to the Turkish languages of Asia. Turkish got to Turkey by immigration of nomads - that's a fact. While a lot of the genetics of Anatolians comes from the distant past in that area, that's because the Turkish invaders were relatively few in number compared to the Anatolian natives. But barbarian pastoralists often triumph over more civilized groups. There are lots of precedents for that.

Ataturk only got away with what he did because the European powers were exhausted by years of war and didn't want to fight anymore. And the people of western Europe didn't see the Greek Orthodox as better allies than the Turk 100 years ago, but most of them see now what a mistake their countries made in the aftermath of WWI.

I am providing the names of the sources about everything i write, you are only gossiping, and not providing any kind of source, which is against the scientific discussion rules, so therefore you are the one that comments fiction fairytales.

Yes there are a lot of Sumerologs, and there are lots of books written by Sumerologs that have read all those tablets. I am basing my conclusions on the books i have read. Two perfect examples that proof the fact that Sumerians are of Turkish origin are the following sources:

-Begmyrat Gerey, "5000 Yıllık Sümer - Türkmen Bağları" / "The 5000 years old ties between Sumerians and Turkomans"(read here http://www.turktoresi.com/viewforum.php?f=2 for further information on this source)
-Muazzez İlmiye Çığ, "Sumerliler Türklerin Bir Koludur" / "Sumerians are a tribe of the Turks"

I mean open your eyes, even wikipedia tries to admit that Sumerians are of Turkish origin, read this:


modern historians have suggested that Sumer was first permanently settled between c. 5500 and 4000 BCE by a non-Semitic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_peoples) people who spoke the Sumerian language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_language)

What do you think that a non-Semitic people in the Middle East could represent 5500 BCE? The article says obviously "non-Semitic people", which means that the Sumerians did not talk Middle Eastern languages.

There are a lot of academicians that proof the existence of the relations between the Sumer language and Altai language group, they also say that the Sumerian language is a Proto-Turkish language. Fritz Hommel is the front of the academicians that defend this statement. (Hommel, Fritz. 1925. Ethnologie und Geographie Des Alten Orients. München.). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Hommel
I suggest you to read the decisive studies done by Fritz Hommel, after all professor Hommel is not of Turkish origin, so you could put your hate feelings aside and let science decide the truth.

For the other comments you made i refer to my previous post, all are answered quite convincingly in there.

isbara
03-02-15, 16:53
Damn exams. Wait until the end of next week and I will give your proper response. But good that you gave the people here an inside of what you think. What this guy is preaching here is nothing new, it was part of the Turkish education system for over 8 decades and still many people believe it.

For more inside to the education System, read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Language_Theory

Science is done with facts, not with blaming or hate crime feelings. Everyone's time is precious, if you think you have other counter theories, provide them, or else it is proven that i am right.

LeBrok
03-02-15, 17:02
Isbara, repeating something doesn't make it true. Repeat the same propaganda to young students for years, and it becomes the only "truth" in their heads. What Isbara says seems so ridiculous to the rest of the world, but it is the only "logical" understanding in his head. These views are easily reinforced and greatly potentiated by our nationalistic nature.
Now, is it possible to even plant a seed of a doubt in his hard head?

isbara
03-02-15, 17:06
Repeat the same propaganda to young students for years, and it becomes the only "truth" in their heads. What Isbara says seems so ridiculous to the rest of the world, but it is the only "logical" understanding in his head. These views are easily reinforced and greatly potentiated by our nationalistic nature.
Now, is it possible to even plant a seed of a doubt in his hard head?

Someone who knows that he or she is not right in his/her cause, will only insult the person on the other side, and will not respond with scientific facts that are taken from solid historical sources!

LeBrok
03-02-15, 17:11
These are true Turkish people from Central Asia. They speak Turkish language.
http://images.wikia.com/althistory/images/2/2b/Yakut1.jpg

These are the Anatolians. They look same as Greeks and other Near Eastern people in the area.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2013/11/Turkey.jpg

And this is what your countryman says on this subject:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29702-Is-Turanid-Caucasian-or-mix-race-In-Turkey-Mongoloid-features-and-admixture-is-high?highlight=turkey

isbara
03-02-15, 17:19
These are true Turkish people from Central Asia. They speak Turkish language.


These are the Anatolians. They look same as Greeks and other Near Eastern people in the area.


And this is what your countryman says on this subject:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29702-Is-Turanid-Caucasian-or-mix-race-In-Turkey-Mongoloid-features-and-admixture-is-high?highlight=turkey

I live in Netherlands, and i have family members that were thought by other people to be of Chinese descent. Did you see the pictures of all 70-80 millions of Turks in Türkiye? Did you visit all villages and did you see their facial types? And also it is not scientific to let face types decide the origin of people, and a very simple argument i will provide to proof this is this example: "There is a Yakut man, and there is a Cameroon woman, they marry and they will have a child, their child looks exactly like an African, does this mean the child is not of Yakut origin?"

LeBrok
03-02-15, 17:20
Someone who knows that he or she is not right in his/her cause, will only insult the person on the other side, and will not respond with scientific facts that are taken from solid historical sources!
The problem is that you don't present scientific facts, but only propaganda from Turkey's education system. At the same time you failed to respond to scientific facts we are presenting.

- Sumerian was not a Turkish language.
- Turkish sounding names and words in other languages are coincidental.
- Kurdish is indo-european, not Turkish language.
- Original Turks came from Central Asia and conquered Anatolia. They introduced their language over local population.
- Genetically, citizens of Turkey are related to old Anatolians and Near Easterners, and only in small minority they carry original Turkish genes, from Central Asia.

isbara
03-02-15, 17:38
The problem is that you don't present scientific facts, but only propaganda from Turkey's education system. At the same time you failed to respond to scientific facts we are presenting.

- Sumerian was not a Turkish language.
- Turkish sounding names and words in other languages are coincidental.
- Kurdish is indo-european, not Turkish language.
- Original Turks came from Central Asia and conquered Anatolia. They introduced their language over local population.
- Genetically, citizens of Turkey are related to old Anatolians and Near Easterners, and only in small minority they carry original Turkish genes, from Central Asia.

Its obvious that you did not read my previous posts, because i gave all sources that support my statements. I even gave the example of Fritz Hommel, German professor, is not of Turkish origin, has nothing to do with Turkish government. Fritz Hommel, a very respected professor has proven in the 1920's that the Sumerians are of Turkish origin, and that they spoke a Turkish language, if your eyes did not catch my previous statements i ask you friendly to read my text carefully and you will see that i am right.

Tell me, based on what is Kurdish Indo European? And what does this Indo European languague mean, is there even a Indo European/Iranian language or is it just an imaginery term? Arent the so called Indo European / Iranian languages and cultures all descended from the Sumerians? So, are they not all of Turkish origin?

What is your proof for your statement of Turkish genetics? What are the haplogroups found in Turkiye(i can provide similar results for all haplogroups found in Turkiye, that are also found in Turkistan regions, Central Asia, Siberia, etc.), and are there enough ancient dna studies to determine an origin based on haplogroups? So why are you people so eager to know much more about the dna haplogroups of the Yamna ancient bones? You know very well what the reason for the curiosity for ancient dna studies are, because there is almost not even one reliable ancient dna study, dont you know of the contamination problems? So, how can we make solid conclusions(whom are not fictions based on the hate crime feelings inside the hearts of evil minded intelligence agents) for the origins of modern populations without having a proper and solid ancient dna database which consists of tens of thousands, maybe 100.000's of samples of different periods of times in ancient history? The answer is quite simple, we cannot conclude anything, without the ancient dna, since the ancient dna database i am talking about does not exist, it is not scientific to talk about origins.

LeBrok
03-02-15, 17:39
I live in Netherlands, and i have family members that were thought by other people to be of Chinese descent. Did you see the pictures of all 70-80 millions of Turks in Türkiye? Did you visit all villages and did you see their facial types? And also it is not scientific to let face types decide the origin of people, and a very simple argument i will provide to proof this is this example: "There is a Yakut man, and there is a Cameroon woman, they marry and they will have a child, their child looks exactly like an African, does this mean the child is not of Yakut origin?"
That's what I'm saying exactly, Turks are a mixed population. From genetic research we gathered that most of Turkish genome belongs to ancient Anatolians, and even more ancient Neolithic Near Eastern Farmers, and only in small proportion it came from original Turks of Central Asia. However, they were strong enough to conquered Anatolia and introduce their Turkish language over whole population and then change the religion of millions of Anatolians.

isbara
03-02-15, 17:49
That's what I'm saying exactly, Turks are a mixed population. From genetic research we gathered that most of Turkish genome belongs to ancient Anatolians, and even more ancient Neolithic Near Eastern Farmers, and only in small proportion it came from original Turks of Central Asia. However, they were strong enough to conquered Anatolia and introduce their Turkish language over whole population and then change the religion of millions of Anatolians.

Which ancient Anatolians, what are the names, which haplogroups were found, what is the name of the study, and is there an ancient dna study about ancient Sumerian samples/bones? The most ancient Anatolians are the Sumerians, and their language is already Turkish, so ancient Anatolians are also of Turkish origin. Again, i am very upset to see that you are not providing any kind of academic source for your statements, i advise you to substantiate your comments with scientific (history and genomics) sources.

LeBrok
03-02-15, 18:01
Its obvious that you did not read my previous posts, because i gave all sources that support my statements. I even gave the example of Fritz Hommel, German professor, is not of Turkish origin, has nothing to do with Turkish government. Fritz Hommel, a very respected has proven in the 1920's that the Sumerians are of Turkish origin, and that they spoke a Turkish language, if your eyes did not catch my previous statements i ask you friendly to read my text carefully and you will see that i am right.
Oh, you mean that one scientist 100 years ago couldn't make a mistake in his conclusion? Tell us what is the consensus of current researchers?


Tell me, based on what is Kurdish Indo European? And what does this Indo European languague mean, is there even a Indo European/Iranian language or is it just an imaginery term? Arent the so called Indo European / Iranian languages and cultures all descended from the Sumerians? So, are they not all of Turkish origin?

Here is the freshest paper:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30856-New-2015-paper-on-the-Indo-European-languages-by-David-Anthony-and-Don-Ringe?p=449007#post449007
The scientific consensus is that there was IE and proto IE language and IE culture using it. The only problem is to figure out where they are coming from.




What is your proof for your statement of Turkish genetics? What are the haplogroups found in Turkiye(i can provide similar results for all haplogroups found in Turkiye, that are also found in Turkistan regions, Central Asia, Siberia, etc.), and are there enough ancient dna studies to determine an origin based on haplogroups? Check autosomal dna, and how Turks plot among nations. Look around Eupedia for it, I don't have time to find it right now.


So why are you people so eager to know much more about the dna haplogroups of the Yamna ancient bones? You know very well what the reason for the curiosity for ancient dna studies are, because there is almost not even one reliable ancient dna study, dont you know of the contamination problems? There were some contaminations in the past, but right now we know how to clean dna, how to run it hundreds of times to get the full picture. The proof is that ancient dna from Europe is different than from todays population. If there was a contamination problem, ancient dna would look exactly like today's. The Paleolithic dna is different than Neolithic, which is different than Bronze age, which is a bit different than modern. We also noticed that different research teams will get agreeing results for Neolithic or Paleolithic DNA. The only conclusion is that most samples are not contaminated and we are getting the true results. We discussed it on many threads on Eupedia. Look for them, they are very interesting and intriguing.



So, how can we make solid conclusions(whom are not fictions based on the hate crime feelings inside the hearts of evil minded intelligence agents) for the origins of modern populations without having a proper and solid ancient dna database which consists of tens of thousands, maybe 100.000's of samples of different periods of times in ancient history? The answer is quite simple, we cannot conclude anything, without the ancient dna, since the ancient dna database i am talking about does not exist, it is not scientific to talk about origins.
I doubt that you ever understand the real world. You have a typical conspiracy theorist mind, which can only see the "patterns" suiting your beliefs. Your rampant hyper nationalism blinds you even more.

isbara
03-02-15, 18:39
Oh, you mean that one scientist 100 years ago couldn't make a mistake in his conclusion? Tell us what is the consensus of current researchers?


2004: Begmyrat Gerey, "5000 Yıllık Sümer - Türkmen Bağları" / "The 5000 years old ties between Sumerians and Turkomans"
2013: Muazzez İlmiye Çığ, "Sumerliler Türklerin Bir Koludur" / "Sumerians are a tribe of the Turks"


Here is the freshest paper:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...007#post449007 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30856-New-2015-paper-on-the-Indo-European-languages-by-David-Anthony-and-Don-Ringe?p=449007#post449007)
The scientific consensus is that there was IE and proto IE language and IE culture using it. The only problem is to figure out where they are coming from.


Read the following text at the following link you provided: http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/full/10.1146/annurev-linguist-030514-124812


The Anatolian-origin theory explains the success of the IE languages as one example of a global process of language shift that accompanied the expansion of farming.


It seems clear that the ancestor of the Anatolian subgroup (which includes Hittite) separated from the other dialects of PIE first, so from a cladistic point of view Anatolian is half the IE family (e.g., Jasanoff 2003). Within the non-Anatolian half, it appears that the ancestor of the Tocharian subgroup (whose attested languages were spoken in Xinjiang, today in western China, until approximately the tenth century ce) separated from the other dialects before the latter had diverged much (e.g., Winter 1998, Ringe 2000).

Question 1, are the Sumerians not the ancestors of the Hittites? Yes they are! And if your sources confirm that Sumerians are the root of the imaginery Indo European nation, and if your sources confirm that there is a direct archeologically connection between Xinjiang and Anatolia, and if we know that the Sumerians spoke a Turkish language, then are the Indo Europeans not all of Turkish origin?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites And if the Sumerians
http://education-portal.com/academy/lesson/heirs-of-the-sumerians-babylonians-hittites-hurrians-and-assyrians.html (Heirs of the Sumerians: Babylonians, Hittites, Hurrians and Assyrians)

Question 2, According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocharian_languages the Tocharians date from the 6th to the 8th century AD. Lets say that the Tocharians are from the fiction Indo European group and they lived in Xinjiang, China. Is it not a fact that the Huns were in Xinjiang and neighbouring areas way before the Tocharians? Yes, the Xiongnu lived around the 3th century BC, this is 1100 years earlier than Tocharians. And in the Chinese documents, it is obviously stated that the ancestors of the Xiongnu were also living in Xinjiang. So, Turks were living in here way before the Tocharians. And not to forget that the Scythians/Sakhas(9th century BC up until the 4th century AD) were related to the ancestors of the Huns, and that they also lived within the steppes between China and Türkiye. Is it then not scientifically to say that the Huns and the Scythians are the ancestors of the Tocharians? Yes it is! And is it not a fact that in stead of talking about an Indo-European/Iranian group, to talk about a Turanian/Turkish group which is based on the connections between the Xiongnu, Scythians and the Sumerians?


There were some contaminations in the past, but right now we know how to clean dna, how to run it hundreds of times to get the full picture. The proof is that ancient dna from Europe is different than from todays population. If there was a contamination problem, ancient dna would look exactly like today's. The Paleolithic dna is different than Neolithic, which is different than Bronze age, which is a bit different than modern. We also noticed that different research teams will get agreeing results for Neolithic or Paleolithic DNA. The only conclusion is that most samples are not contaminated and we are getting the true results. We discussed it on many threads on Eupedia. Look for them, they are very interesting and intriguing..

Yes exactly, right now means beginning from the end of 2014, there is a new Y-SNP technique that eliminates the contamination problem. But before end 2014 the problem of contamination still existed, so there are almost not even one reliable ancient dna study, so how can we make any logical conclusions? We need an ancient dna database with at least tens of thousands of ancient dna samples from different populations and different times. This is clearly not the situation right now, in nowadays academic world!

LeBrok
03-02-15, 18:49
Which ancient Anatolians, what are the names, which haplogroups were found, what is the name of the study, and is there an ancient dna study about ancient Sumerian samples/bones?
There is no DNA of ancient Sumerian collectd yet.
What is the scientific consensus about Sumerian language?
You picked one guy who claims that it was Turkish language. Why didn't you pick a scientist who claims it was an Afro-Asiatic language?
You see, your hyper nationalism skewed your logic, making you believe that this scientist was right. You want Turkey to be something special, and that it has a long history in the area. That your language is aboriginal and original to Near East. The longer the history of Turkish language, people and culture the bigger the validity to claim Turkey your true homeland.

This is how it works in your brain:


The most ancient Anatolians are the Sumerians, and their language is already Turkish, so ancient Anatolians are also of Turkish origin.
"The most ancient Anatolians are the Sumerians" - your believe, your wishful thinking
"and their language is already Turkish" - cherie picked conclusion of one linguist from 100 ago.
"so ancient Anatolians are also of Turkish origin" - your own conclusion, a confirmation of your beliefs
In mean time you ignored scientific consensus of modern researchers claiming that Summer is a language isolate, not related to other existing languages.

At the end of this page you will find a list of many scientific papers who don't agree with your belief.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_language
Please accustom yourself with other scientific points of view on Sumerian language.

We would have a different discussion if you came here and said " Hey guys, I found this german scientist, who claim that Sumerian was a Turkish language, I think it probably was". It would be a typical statement of curious open mind. Instead you came here and claimed "It is the Truth, because a german scientist said that". I'm sorry but this is not how critical thinking works, which is base for a sound logic. For that I'm sure that doesn't matter how many scientific papers I find to confirm my point of view, trying to open your eyes on other possibilities. You will ignore them, because they don't fit your beliefs, your version of truth.

When you read our threads discussing recent scientific papers, you will notice that most of us use less certain language. We say: I think, probable, most likely, maybe, perhaps, what do you think, sometimes, etc. This is because we know that things we discuss are not 100% proven, we leave a room for possibilities, we change our minds and our assumptions. Now that's critical thinking, this is how certainty and future consensus is being born.

LeBrok
03-02-15, 19:00
2004: Begmyrat Gerey, "5000 Yıllık Sümer - Türkmen Bağları" / "The 5000 years old ties between Sumerians and Turkomans"
2013: Muazzez İlmiye Çığ, "Sumerliler Türklerin Bir Koludur" / "Sumerians are a tribe of the Turks"
All Turks on government salary? How objective and convincing.




Question 1, are the Sumerians not the ancestors of the Hittites? Yes they are! And if your sources confirm that Sumerians are the root of the imaginery Indo European nation, and if your sources confirm that there is a direct archeologically connection between Xinjiang and Anatolia, and if we know that the Sumerians spoke a Turkish language, then are the Indo Europeans not all of Turkish origin?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites And if the Sumerians
http://education-portal.com/academy/lesson/heirs-of-the-sumerians-babylonians-hittites-hurrians-and-assyrians.html (Heirs of the Sumerians: Babylonians, Hittites, Hurrians and Assyrians)

Question 2, According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocharian_languages the Tocharians date from the 6th to the 8th century AD. Lets say that the Tocharians are from the fiction Indo European group and they lived in Xinjiang, China. Is it not a fact that the Huns were in Xinjiang and neighbouring areas way before the Tocharians? Yes, the Xiongnu lived around the 3th century BC, this is 1100 years earlier than Tocharians. And in the Chinese documents, it is obviously stated that the ancestors of the Xiongnu were also living in Xinjiang. So, Turks were living in here way before the Tocharians. And not to forget that the Scythians/Sakhas(9th century BC up until the 4th century AD) were related to the ancestors of the Huns, and that they also lived within the steppes between China and Türkiye. Is it then not scientifically to say that the Huns and the Scythians are the ancestors of the Tocharians? Yes it is! And is it not a fact that in stead of talking about an Indo-European/Iranian group, to talk about a Turanian/Turkish group which is based on the connections between the Xiongnu, Scythians and the Sumerians?
Did you read this latest paper on IE language? What do you think?



Yes exactly, right now means beginning from the end of 2014, there is a new Y-SNP technique that eliminates the contamination problem. But before end 2014 the problem of contamination still existed, so there are almost not even one reliable ancient dna study, so how can we make any logical conclusions? We need an ancient dna database with at least tens of thousands of ancient dna samples from different populations and different times. This is clearly not the situation right now, in nowadays academic world! Wrong. It is not logical to conclude that if something exist, it has to happen. Car accidents exist, but they don't happen every time you drive your car, right?
Most dna from ancient samples from independent studies agree with each other. That's why we know that they are good.

Sile
03-02-15, 19:00
The name of the tribe of Mo-tu(3th-2th centuries BC), the founder of the Xiongnu Hunnic state, is described as "Tu-ku (T’u-ko)" in ancient Chinese documents. "Tu-ku (T’u-ko)" is equal to the word "Turk", it means that this shows that the fact is that Huns are of Turkish origin. Also another very solid fact is the content of an ancient Persian source in the year 420 AD, whom describes the Altaic populations of around Central Asia as "Türk Hun". Also it is a fact that Efrâsiyâb(=Alp Er Tunga) the founder of the Scythian/Sakha state is of Turkish origin. Also nowadays Yakutia/Sakha Republic is a modern fact that Scythians are of Turkish origin. Look at the Divani Lugati Türk written in the 11th century by Mahmood Kashgari that confirms that Efrâsiyâb(Iranian-Turanian khan) is of Turkish origin. Also when you read the writings of Priscus(5th century AD)(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priscus), he constantly describes the Huns as "Scythian", he also names other populations as "Scythian". This shows that there are a lot of other nations during the 5th centuries whom are of Turkish Scythian origin.

Read the contents of the ancient sources provided at the following link to see that i am right: http://www.islamansiklopedisi.info/dia/pdf/c41/c410268.pdf




This statement obviously proofs that you are commiting a hate crime against Turks, and are not providing any kind of historical fact based on real historical sources. If you look at modern Anatolian village names, you see that most of them have their origins in 4th-5th century Hunnic tribes, that migrated and settled within the East Roman empire, and became later Christians. A majority of modern Anatolian "Rum's"(Roman citizens), are of Hunnic origin, and these populations have allied with the Selcukids. All in all, Turks were in Anatolia already in 4th-5th century AD. And not to forget about the Sumerians that spoke a Turkish language, this is almost 8000 years ago from now, so Turks lived in Türkiye 8000 years ago!

And know that the British and their slaves were not tired or exhausted after the WW1, they got beated by us Turks, and run away from Anatolian lands like cowards.

Look at what William David Upshaw says about Atatürk at this link http://www.turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=139&t=7187:



In short he says that Mustafa Kemal Atatürk has dictated his terms at the threaty of Lausanne to the British, so strong and smart as Timur and Genghis Khan. It means that the War of Independence was a huge and first lost of the British empire that was ended in the supreme victory of the Turks.

your a dreamer, the indigenous people of anatolia where not turks , the hittities, lycians, lidians, trojans, and the rest are not turkic

the 4th and 5th century you speak of was the arrival of the turkmen into eastern iran, they still did not reach modern Turkey until the 10th century AD.

whatever one speaks does not designate ethnicity..................you are speaking to me in English, are your English!!!!

Aberdeen
03-02-15, 19:11
Repeat the same propaganda to young students for years, and it becomes the only "truth" in their heads. What Isbara says seems so ridiculous to the rest of the world, but it is the only "logical" understanding in his head. These views are easily reinforced and greatly potentiated by our nationalistic nature.
Now, is it possible to even plant a seed of a doubt in his hard head?

It's unlikely we can plant a seed of doubt in the mind of a true believer who has spent years absorbing a comprehensive belief system and who has no doubt been warned against having an open mind. But other people who haven't been brainwashed might read what such a person writes and, if they haven't read much archeology, history or linguistics, might believe the nonsense that was created for purposes of hypernationalism. If we can point out the flaws in the propaganda so that innocent people don't accept it uncritically but instead decide to do their own reading in order to decide for themselves who's right about the issue, we haven't wasted our time in conversing with someone whose mind is already made up. I think that warning other people to ask questions about what someone is saying is all we can accomplish in such cases.

isbara
03-02-15, 22:27
In mean time you ignored scientific consensus of modern researchers claiming that Summer is a language isolate, not related to other existing languages.

What i can say is that you did not read my posts, therefore, you are not to be taken serious, you yourself cannot come with any logical argument, all you can do is to comment insults. The truth will not be ignored by disrespectful people that want to manipulate the truth because of the hate crime they are trying to provoke. I gave an example of modern researcher Muazzez İlmiye Çığ, her book is published in 2013, she has an experience of almost 80 years on Sumerian history, she is a respected internationally known Sumerolog. She herself said that the Sumerians are linguistically proven to be of Turkish origin, and that the Sumerians called theirselves Kenger, and that the word "Sumer" was used in later times. Kenger is a medieval name that is used by Turkish tribes from Central Asia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muazzez_İlmiye_Çığ



We would have a different discussion if you came here and said " Hey guys, I found this german scientist, who claim that Sumerian was a Turkish language, I think it probably was". It would be a typical statement of curious open mind. Instead you came here and claimed "It is the Truth, because a german scientist said that".

I tell you something, you and people like(Turk haters) you are obviously not GOD, so the truth is the truth, i have written several arguments whom are defending my points, you could not write counter arguments, instead you choose to make disrespectful comments, and send me a private message in which you gave me an infraction. Is this your way of finding the truth? Ban and punish the comments of populations you hate? This could only be concluded as a simple hate crime, in which you are changing the subject by making the discussion more personal, i find it very pathetic.

isbara
03-02-15, 22:33
Did you read this latest paper on IE language? What do you think?


Again you did not read my previous post, and dont know about the content of the link you have written in your own post.
Go to the link you mentioned, http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...007#post449007, in here you will find the paper you mentioned at this link: http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/full/10.1146/annurev-linguist-030514-124812.

In my previous post #38 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30857-Origin-and-DNA-of-Turks?p=449040&viewfull=1#post449040) i was obviously quoting on a couple of texts written in that article, based on that i asked you two questions, but you seem to not know the contents of your own suggested article. I think this discussion is going to a lower level, because it is not about the subject anymore, please dont waste my time with unnecessary comments.

isbara
03-02-15, 22:41
your a dreamer, the indigenous people of anatolia where not turks , the hittities, lycians, lidians, trojans, and the rest are not turkic

Read the text at the following link: http://www.astroset.com/bireysel_gelisim/ancient/a31.htm


In order to show the connection between Hittite and the Altaic languages we need concrete examples obtained from written original texts. There is a book published in 1980 by Ahmet Unal discussing some Hittite phrases (4). We find many Sumerian words in these sentences, which could either be borrowed from the ancient Sumerian language of Mesopotamia or could also be independently related to the Asiatic Proto-language. Here is one example:

Dingir-lim : My God. “Dingir” meaning “God” in Sumerian, already discussed in chapter 22, Egyptian Deities. “-lim” is a suffix still used in Turkish as a possessive pronoun.

Kililu = Gilim : Wreath or Headdress. “Kyl” means “hair” or rather a single thread of hair in Turkish. But “kylly” means “mixed with threads of hair” (-ly is already mentioned above) and therefore the Hittite word Kililu or Gilim is an appropriate definition for a wreath worn on the head.

Lu-Sang-a: To the holy priest. The first syllable stands for “holy” and is found in Turkish as “ulu”, already mentioned in Chapter 29, The bird symbolism. Sang means “respectful, important person” and is found in Japanese as “san” and in Turkish as “sayın”. The same meaning is found in “saint”. The suffix “-a” meaning “to the” is still used in Turkish. Therefore, Lusanga means “to the saint”.

We see that Hittite is an agglutinant language similar to Altaic languages containing several suffixes still existing in modern Turkish. Such a sentence formation is not found in most Indo-European languages. These three words above are enough to explain an original sentence obtained from a Hittite text:




the 4th and 5th century you speak of was the arrival of the turkmen into eastern iran, they still did not reach modern Turkey until the 10th century AD.


You obviously have limited knowledge about Turkish history. The history of Turkmens starts during the time of the Selcukid(11th-13th centuries), and maybe a century earlier(10th century) during the Oghuz Yabgu state. The 4th and 5th centuries are about the Western Huns that migrated heavily into Western Eurasia. First read the texts written in the 5th century Roman diplomat about Western Huns, and then come discuss this subject with me.

http://www.academia.edu/7733887/The_Fragmentary_History_of_Priscus_Attila_the_Huns _and_the_Romans
http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/5190547.Priscus
http://www.amazon.com/The-Fragmentary-History-Priscus-Christian/dp/1935228145



whatever one speaks does not designate ethnicity..................you are speaking to me in English, are your English!!!!


I did not understand this comment, please explain what you mean.

isbara
03-02-15, 22:46
It's unlikely we can plant a seed of doubt in the mind of a true believer who has spent years absorbing a comprehensive belief system and who has no doubt been warned against having an open mind. But other people who haven't been brainwashed might read what such a person writes and, if they haven't read much archeology, history or linguistics, might believe the nonsense that was created for purposes of hypernationalism. If we can point out the flaws in the propaganda so that innocent people don't accept it uncritically but instead decide to do their own reading in order to decide for themselves who's right about the issue, we haven't wasted our time in conversing with someone whose mind is already made up. I think that warning other people to ask questions about what someone is saying is all we can accomplish in such cases.
Like i said earlier, again your post consists off text which is not related to the subject we are discussing about. Talking about other side effects and insulting me wont give you any kind of positive bargain in the discussion. It will only prove to outside readers that you dont have the knowledge to discuss the situation with me. You cannot convince anyone like this, i tell you this in a friendly manner.

LeBrok
04-02-15, 00:13
I tell you something, you and people like(Turk haters) you are obviously not GOD, so the truth is the truth, i have written several arguments whom are defending my points, you could not write counter arguments, instead you choose to make disrespectful comments, and send me a private message in which you gave me an infraction. Is this your way of finding the truth? Ban and punish the comments of populations you hate? This could only be concluded as a simple hate crime, in which you are changing the subject by making the discussion more personal, i find it very pathetic.

This is the post you got infraction for:


PKK could not even defend Aynel Arab(Kobani), and your terrorist militants ran away like 5 year old girls from ISIS, and guess what the Turkish Army accepted and defended these cowards into our borders. Tell me something, how can a terrorist group that cannot even defend a village, manage such a big country. To do this, you need to have an ancient tradition of managing a state. Is there even one independent Kurdish state in the last 1000 years? And how can you trust the US that used Saddam that killed thousands of Kurds(Halabja chemical attack)? The US is using the Kurds and will throw them into the trash clan after they are finished using you guys.

Poor innocent you and I am the one full of hate, lol.

LeBrok
04-02-15, 00:16
Again you did not read my previous post, and dont know about the content of the link you have written in your own post.
Go to the link you mentioned, http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...007#post449007, in here you will find the paper you mentioned at this link: http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/full/10.1146/annurev-linguist-030514-124812.

In my previous post #38 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30857-Origin-and-DNA-of-Turks?p=449040&viewfull=1#post449040) i was obviously quoting on a couple of texts written in that article, based on that i asked you two questions, but you seem to not know the contents of your own suggested article. I think this discussion is going to a lower level, because it is not about the subject anymore, please dont waste my time with unnecessary comments.

Sorry, I wasn't too precise expressing my thoughts. What do you think about IE and PIE language family now? Is it real?

isbara
04-02-15, 00:30
This is the post you got infraction for:
Poor innocent you and I am the one full of hate, lol.

PKK is a terrorist organization created by the US state that killed 30.000 of our people(including Kurds) since the 1980's, they can only cowardly wait and ambush people in the back. These are all truth i have written. So what youre doing is openly supporting an international terrorist organization, is this your way of finding the truth or discussing the truth by banning forum members because they tell the truth about internationally acknowledged terrorist people that dont hesitate to kill babies and innocent women and kill soldiers in the back? Now everyone who reads this topic, understand what kind of monster lies behind your mask. Even if you delete my messages, i am going to publish this discussion on my own forum, dont worry about that, people need to see this kind of non scientific terrorist supporters. The PKK could not defend the Aynel Arab village, and sought help of the Turkish soldiers whom they dont hesitate to kill in the back. Again, this situation shows that how noble the Turkish Army is, for defending the enemy if they ask for help. Yes, the US is using the PKK and like i said earlier, Saddam was also a puppet of the US, and the US intelligence CIA was the real owner of the massacre done on Kurds in 1988. Kurds need to understand this, you cannot trust the US, they are using you, and if they are finished with you or even think a bit they dont need you a bit, they will throw you away, i was trying to warn my Kurdish brothers not be a fool and stop being a slave and pion of the US CIA.

isbara
04-02-15, 00:32
Sorry, I wasn't too precise expressing my thoughts. What do you think about IE and PIE language family now? Is it real?
read post #38 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30857-Origin-and-DNA-of-Turks?p=449040&viewfull=1#post449040)

LeBrok
04-02-15, 00:38
read post #38 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30857-Origin-and-DNA-of-Turks?p=449040&viewfull=1#post449040) Nothing answering my question. I remember few posts earlier you were doubtful about existence of common IE language in the past, or even existence of IE family of languages. What do you think now after reading this article?

LeBrok
04-02-15, 00:41
What i can say is that you did not read my posts, therefore, you are not to be taken serious, you yourself cannot come with any logical argument, all you can do is to comment insults. The truth will not be ignored by disrespectful people that want to manipulate the truth because of the hate crime they are trying to provoke. I gave an example of modern researcher Muazzez İlmiye Çığ, her book is published in 2013, she has an experience of almost 80 years on Sumerian history, she is a respected internationally known Sumerolog. She herself said that the Sumerians are linguistically proven to be of Turkish origin, and that the Sumerians called theirselves Kenger, and that the word "Sumer" was used in later times. Kenger is a medieval name that is used by Turkish tribes from Central Asia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muazzez_İlmiye_Çığ
As I suspected, the two writers live in Turkey and hard to consider them objective. I don't have time to read their works, so my point of view will be based on scientific consensus that Sumerian is a language isolate.

Anyway it doesn't even matter if Sumerian was kind of Turkic language or not. There is no direct connection and ascendancy of Turks from Sumerians. Sumerians existed 4 thousand years before Turks showed up on a map. There is no known continuity between them both. On top of it we have direct written and archeological evidence about movement and conquest of Turks, who came from Central Asia.

What do you think about this investigation done by your own countryman:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29702-Is-Turanid-Caucasian-or-mix-race-In-Turkey-Mongoloid-features-and-admixture-is-high?highlight=turkey

isbara
04-02-15, 00:46
Nothing answering my question. I remember few posts earlier you were doubtful about existence of common IE language in the past, or even existence of IE family of languages. What do you think now after reading this article?
then you have problems in the interpreting and understanding. Its ridiculous to repeat myself, you text is there, if you are interested read or else not read it.

LeBrok
04-02-15, 00:49
PKK is a terrorist organization created by the US state that killed 30.000 of our people(including Kurds) since the 1980's, they can only cowardly wait and ambush people in the back. These are all truth i have written. So what youre doing is openly supporting an international terrorist organization, is this your way of finding the truth or discussing the truth by banning forum members because they tell the truth about internationally acknowledged terrorist people that dont hesitate to kill babies and innocent women and kill soldiers in the back? Now everyone who reads this topic, understand what kind of monster lies behind your mask. Even if you delete my messages, i am going to publish this discussion on my own forum, dont worry about that, people need to see this kind of non scientific terrorist supporters. The PKK could not defend the Aynel Arab village, and sought help of the Turkish soldiers whom they dont hesitate to kill in the back. Again, this situation shows that how noble the Turkish Army is, for defending the enemy if they ask for help. Yes, the US is using the PKK and like i said earlier, Saddam was also a puppet of the US, and the US intelligence CIA was the real owner of the massacre done on Kurds in 1988. Kurds need to understand this, you cannot trust the US, they are using you, and if they are finished with you or even think a bit they dont need you a bit, they will throw you away, i was trying to warn my Kurdish brothers not be a fool and stop being a slave and pion of the US CIA.
And of course you must have your scientific proofs to support that. Keep up your hyper-nationalistic attitude and degrading other ethnicities and you will have just your blog to tell your "truths" to the world.

LeBrok
04-02-15, 00:52
then you have problems in the interpreting and understanding. Its ridiculous to repeat myself, you text is there, if you are interested read or else not read it. I want your opinion not the cited text. Perhaps you should ask first ministry of turkish propaganda what to think about this new information. We already noticed that critical thinking wasn't your forte. However, you excelled in the mantra of recycled propaganda, the beacon of turkish nationalistic truth.

isbara
04-02-15, 01:33
As I suspected, the two writers live in Turkey and hard to consider them objective. I don't have time to read their works, so my point of view will be based on scientific consensus that Sumerian is a language isolate.

Anyway it doesn't even matter if Sumerian was kind of Turkic language or not. There is no direct connection and ascendancy of Turks from Sumerians. Sumerians existed 4 thousand years before Turks showed up on a map. There is no known continuity between them both. On top of it we have direct written and archeological evidence about movement and conquest of Turks, who came from Central Asia.

What do you think about this investigation done by your own countryman:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29702-Is-Turanid-Caucasian-or-mix-race-In-Turkey-Mongoloid-features-and-admixture-is-high?highlight=turkey

1. Sumerians lived from around 5500 and 4000 BC until around 2300 BC.

2. We know that the Hitites are the descendents of the Sumerians/Kengers. Hitites lived from around 1600 BC until around 900 BC.

3. Huns(200 BC) and Scythians lived from around 900 BC until today(modern Turks).

4. Professor Hommel determines that the Sumerians migrated from Central Asia to Anatolian regions about 5000 BC. Read the text at the following link for detailed information: http://www.turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2392


Eski Önasya Tarihi uzmanlarından Fr. Hommel, Sümerler'i tamamıyla bir Türk kavmi olarak kabul etmekte, Orta Asya'dan M.Ö. 5000'lerde kopan Türk gruplarının Önasya'ya geldiklerini ve Sümerler'i teşkil ettiklerini ileri sürmektedir. Sümer dilinden 350 kelimeyi Türkçe ile açıklayan Fr. Hommel'in bu iddialı tezine karşı V. Christian ile Benno Landsberger daha ihtiyatlı davranmakta, Sümerce'de Türkçe ile birlikte diğer Ural-Altay kavimlerinin de dil hatıraları olduğunu kabul etmektedirler.

5. All modern Eurasian cultures are derived from the Sumerian civilization. For example, why do you think the The double-headed eagle is used in the flags of the Huns, Romans, Germans, and other Eurasian ancient nations? Because they have their root all in the Sumerians. And the Sumerians spoke obviously a Turkish(or Hunnish or Scythian/Sakha, whatever you like to call it) language. So, Turks are the ancestors of all modern Eurasian nations! I advise you to also read the book of Gene D. Matlock called "What Strange Mystery Unites the Turkish Nations, India, Catholicism, and Mexico?: A Concise But Detailed History of Things Divine and Earthly"
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1557890.What_Strange_Mystery_Unites_the_Turkish_Na tions_India_Catholicism_and_Mexico_
http://www.scribd.com/doc/28325924/Gene-D-Matlock-What-Strange-Mystery-Unites-the-Turkish-Nations-India-Catholic-Ism-And-Mexico-A-Concise-but-Detailed-History-of-Things-Divine-and#scribd
http://www.amazon.com/Strange-Mystery-Turkish-Nations-Catholicism/dp/0595394469

And please read the text at this page: http://viewzone2.com/ancientturksx.html


THE SUMERIANS WERE TURKS.

Many people find it difficult to accept that even the Akkad or Sumerians were Turkish. The Akkads (Sumerians) were Phoenicians. known also as Kads, Khatti, etc., Originally, they were a Turkish (Kur, Tur, Tul, Tol, etc.) people from what our Bible calls Eden, the Akkadian word for the Steppes (Central Asia). Before the Great Flood, the Steppes or Eden was regarded as an earthly paradise. However, when the Great Flood inundated what are now the Altai, Tannu (Tiva, Teva, or Tuva), and Khakassia Turkish republics, the survivors had to build their civilization all over again. Many fled to what is now India, becoming Indians themselves, joining the eastern part of the Northern and southern hemisphere as a single nation.

Gene D. Matlock, is also not Turkish and his book dates 2006.

isbara
04-02-15, 01:37
I want your opinion not the cited text. Perhaps you should ask first ministry of turkish propaganda what to think about this new information. We already noticed that critical thinking wasn't your forte. However, you excelled in the mantra of recycled propaganda, the beacon of turkish nationalistic truth.
My opinion is written in that post, and it is obvious that you are a CIA propagandist, and we know how the US killed more than 2 millions in Iraq and Afghanistan during the past 13 years(2003-2015). So, you keep on performing your CIA propaganda, i will keep on telling the truth!

LeBrok
04-02-15, 03:43
1. Sumerians lived from around 5500 and 4000 BC until around 2300 BC.

2. We know that the Hitites are the descendents of the Sumerians/Kengers. Hitites lived from around 1600 BC until around 900 BC. Garbage. Hittites were Indo-Europeans, Sumerians were not. In both cases we can read their scribbles and we know they were not talking the same language, not even close.


3. Huns(200 BC) and Scythians lived from around 900 BC until today(modern Turks). Scythians were Indo-Europeans again, precisely East Iranian tribe. Hun's language is not attested, so we don't have a clue. Perhaps they were from Scythian confederation. Definitely moved from Central Asia into Europe. Later this term was used to describe Mongolians, either by Europeans or Chinese. The last time we hear about Scythians in records is at the end of Roman Empire and onset of Dark Ages.


4. Professor Hommel determines that the Sumerians migrated from Central Asia to Anatolian regions about 5000 BC. Read the text at the following link for detailed information: http://www.turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2392 It doesn't matter if they did or not. They didn't speak Indo-European language, therefore couldn't influence Hittite language. There is also a big temporal divide between them too.


Sumerians spoke obviously a Turkish Whatever, lets say they did, it still doesn't prove direct connection to Sumerian. Why not Kipchak or Khazars, we know they spoke Turkic?


(or Hunnish or Scythian/Sakha, whatever you like to call it) again Scythian language is IE. Turkic is not. I'm yet to hear about Scythians living in Anatolia.

You are jumping through thousands of years, vast territory and many different cultures and languages as it is nothing. You grab snippets of whatever pleases you from every historical point and this give you a big picture of the great Turkish past. The worst part is your assurance in your arguments, not doubt, no hesitation. Dude, it doesn't work this way.

[QUOTE]So, Turks are the ancestors of all modern Eurasian nations! Again, hyper nationalistic propaganda and your emotions are blinding you.



I advise you to also read the book I advise you to open your eyes.

Turkic tribes before invading Anatolia.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Khazarfall1.png

LeBrok
04-02-15, 03:45
My opinion is written in that post, and it is obvious that you are a CIA propagandist, and we know how the US killed more than 2 millions in Iraq and Afghanistan during the past 13 years(2003-2015). So, you keep on performing your CIA propaganda, i will keep on telling the truth!
Sure, I've already informed CIA office in Holland to keep an eye on you. Take care.

motzart
04-02-15, 04:34
You're CIA? What a coincidence I'm batman

Sile
04-02-15, 06:23
Read the text at the following link: http://www.astroset.com/bireysel_gelisim/ancient/a31.htm





You obviously have limited knowledge about Turkish history. The history of Turkmens starts during the time of the Selcukid(11th-13th centuries), and maybe a century earlier(10th century) during the Oghuz Yabgu state. The 4th and 5th centuries are about the Western Huns that migrated heavily into Western Eurasia. First read the texts written in the 5th century Roman diplomat about Western Huns, and then come discuss this subject with me.

http://www.academia.edu/7733887/The_Fragmentary_History_of_Priscus_Attila_the_Huns _and_the_Romans
http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/5190547.Priscus
http://www.amazon.com/The-Fragmentary-History-Priscus-Christian/dp/1935228145



I did not understand this comment, please explain what you mean.

You know very little turk history.............there is less than 6% of turkic genetics in Turkey , the bulk are the indigenous people who where there ,came ftom pre -roman and roman times.

Give me your genetic numbers and we will see if you REALLY are a turk.

As usual, Turks have no history in Anatolia before the romans or during the romans, so, they start their history of the world from 5th century AD.
The turks must think that when they arrived in Modern Turkey , the land was completly empty of people.

isbara
04-02-15, 14:17
Garbage. Hittites were Indo-Europeans, Sumerians were not. In both cases we can read their scribbles and we know they were not talking the same language, not even close.


Read this from: http://www.astroset.com/bireysel_gelisim/ancient/a31.htm



However, the greater part of the Hittite vocabulary is of non-Indo-European origin (1). In Hittite the laryngeal (guttural) sounds originated from the Asiatic Proto-language. For example, the “kh” sound is found in many words and should be pronounced as “Okh”. The name Hittite was given to this language by modern scholars as being the official language of the Land of Hatti; but it should be pronounced asOkh-At-ili. Since the Hittite language was a monosyllabic language connected to the Proto-language and to all Altaic languages, one should split the words into its constituent phonemes. Okh means “arrow”, At means “horse”(2) and “il” means “The Land”, while “illi” means “from the land” or “belonging to the land”, therefore Okh-At-illior Okh-At-ly became Khattili => Hattili and finally Hittite. The suffix “-ly” is still existing in Turkish meaning “mixed together”, giving a further meaning to Okhatly “a mixture of Okh and At people”. It is most probable that “At” and “As” were names given to the same people originating from western Asia. We find “At” and the suffix “-illi” in the name of the Hun leader Atilla or Atilli.


Without going into further detail we can conclude that the Hittite language forms a bridge between Altaic and western Indo-European languages. The original connection between Hittite and Sumerian can be traced back to the Proto-language of Asia from which Turkish is the closest descendent.

It means that both Hitite and Sumerian languages are of Proto Turkish origin, and that the imaginery Indo-European languages did occur from the Turkish Sumerian and Hitite languages. It means that Indo-European culture has been created out of the Turkish Hitites who are the descendants of Turkish Sumerians.


Scythians were Indo-Europeans again, precisely East Iranian tribe. Hun's language is not attested, so we don't have a clue. Perhaps they were from Scythian confederation. Definitely moved from Central Asia into Europe. Later this term was used to describe Mongolians, either by Europeans or Chinese. The last time we hear about Scythians in records is at the end of Roman Empire and onset of Dark Ages.

No, tell me something, why were the Huns called Scythians all the time in so many medieval Roman documents? Why does a Turkish scholar and lexicographer(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmud_al-Kashgari) from Xinjiang/Kashgar from the 11nd century write that Efrasiyab/Alp Er Tunga, the founder of Scythians/Sakha is of Turkish origin? Why are there so many cultural poems and songs among the Kazakhs and also other Central Asian Turkish tribes about the Scythian khan, considering him as an ancestor? Why is there in modern day Siberia a state called the Sakha Republic, and why do the Yakuts here speak a Turkish language? I think it is pretty clear now, that Scythians are of Turkish origin.


You are jumping through thousands of years, vast territory and many different cultures and languages as it is nothing. You grab snippets of whatever pleases you from every historical point and this give you a big picture of the great Turkish past. The worst part is your assurance in your arguments, not doubt, no hesitation. Dude, it doesn't work this way.

Let me repeat, i know verty well you understand this, so keep a side the theatrical behavior and analyze this again:

1. 5500 - 2300 BC: Sumerians
2. 1600 - 900 BC: Hitites
3. 900 - 200 BC - Nowadays: Huns and Scythians




Turkic tribes before invading Anatolia.

No, i advise you friendly to read the historical documents of Priscus. He is a 5th-century Roman diplomat and Greek historian and rhetorician (or sophist). He clearly writes about many Hunnish tribes leaving the Hunnish Empire of Attila, and joining the Byzantines and therefore settling into the Byzantine / Anatolian regions. Also many Hunnish diplomats settled in Anatolia in that era. Not to forget that Attila conquered all these areas. Even the root of Hagia Sophia has been made by Huns. If you are a man read this the text at this url: http://www.onaltiyildiz.com/haber.php?haber_id=3373

Another example is that Priscus writes about the Tonosur(Juncars) Hunnish tribe that ran off in the 4th century to the Romans. Today in Central Anatolia there is a village/city with the exact names. Also during the battle of Manzikert, between the Selcukids and the Byzantines in the 11th century, the Byzantine army consisted mainly of Turkish soldiers of obviously Hunnish origin because they were already in Anatolia and Black Sea region before the Selcukids came.

isbara
04-02-15, 14:23
Sure, I've already informed CIA office in Holland to keep an eye on you. Take care.
You're CIA? What a coincidence I'm batman
Is this a scientific and political discussion, or are you some kind of comedians? If you are clowns tell me about it, i will stop spending time writing the obvious truth and the facts.

isbara
04-02-15, 14:32
You know very little turk history.............there is less than 6% of turkic genetics in Turkey , the bulk are the indigenous people who where there came ftom pre -roman and roman times.

Give me your genetic numbers and we will see if you REALLY are a turk.

As usual, Turks have no history in Anatolia before the romans or during the romans, so, they start their history of the world from 5th century AD.
The turks must think that when they arrived in Modern Turkey , the last was completly empty of people.
And you have a very low IQ because you are not able to seperate history and genetics, both very important and also very different scientific departments. Even a child of 6 years old knows that history is different than genetics. And you cannot defend your statements with sources, give me sources, give me facts, hate crime does not count as an argument during a discussion. Is there any ancient dna data supporting your hate crime comments? Again, like i wrote in previous posts, until end 2014 there was contamination, so in fact the ancient dna world is rebooting itself, and starts from zero. And based on which haplogroups do you base your percentages? You cannot give any answer to these, because you know that you are wrong! Give me your low IQ evidence data and i will proof youre wrong! TURKS FROM TURKIYE ARE 100% OF TURKISH ORIGIN!

Aberdeen
04-02-15, 16:22
One of the problems with a country inventing its own "facts" to teach to its citizens a hyper-national point of view is that this isolates its citizens, because they can't relate to people from other countries who have a better grasp of things such as history, archeology and genetics, so there will always be lots of misunderstandings. And countries that embrace ideas that are not real will gradually founder because their academics aren't equipped to deal with reality.

isbara
04-02-15, 16:35
One of the problems with a country inventing its own "facts" to teach to its citizens a hyper-national point of view is that this isolates its citizens, because they can't relate to people from other countries who have a better grasp of things such as history, archeology and genetics, so there will always be lots of misunderstandings. And countries that embrace ideas that are not real will gradually founder because their academics aren't equipped to deal with reality.
Exactly, you are describing yourself. If you had something to say about the contents of my arguments, you would have replied to my messages one by one, and answer with the mentioning of proper sources that are defending your points. In stead, you and your fellas are trying to force the discussion into another direction, i must say in a friendly way that i find this quite pathetic and a sign of insufficiency.

Sile
04-02-15, 18:11
And you have a very low IQ because you are not able to seperate history and genetics, both very important and also very different scientific departments. Even a child of 6 years old knows that history is different than genetics. And you cannot defend your statements with sources, give me sources, give me facts, hate crime does not count as an argument during a discussion. Is there any ancient dna data supporting your hate crime comments? Again, like i wrote in previous posts, until end 2014 there was contamination, so in fact the ancient dna world is rebooting itself, and starts from zero. And based on which haplogroups do you base your percentages? You cannot give any answer to these, because you know that you are wrong! Give me your low IQ evidence data and i will proof youre wrong! TURKS FROM TURKIYE ARE 100% OF TURKISH ORIGIN!

Cinnioglu et al., (2004)[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_the_Turkish_people#cite_note-cinnioglu_2004-19) The majority of haplogroups are shared with their "West Asian" and "Caucasian' neighbours. By contrast, "Central Asian" Turkic haplogroups are rarer, 5.7% of Turkish people.

Turkic gene flow from Central Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia) to Anatolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia) has contributed to the current genetics of the Turkish people, and this is solely based on the first by Oghuz Turks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oghuz_Turks), from the 11th century.


I again repeat, do you think anatolia was empty of people when the turks arrived!

Sile
04-02-15, 18:14
the latest paper

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2164/15/963

The demography of the region was later influenced by the movement of Turkic speaking populations beginning from 11th Century A.D., which occurred with disputed intensity and frequency, but with undoubtedly profound linguistic impact [7 (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2164/15/963#B7)].


11th century AD

write to the scholars if you have an issue

isbara
04-02-15, 18:41
the latest paper

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2164/15/963

The demography of the region was later influenced by the movement of Turkic speaking populations beginning from 11th Century A.D., which occurred with disputed intensity and frequency, but with undoubtedly profound linguistic impact [7 (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2164/15/963#B7)].


11th century AD

write to the scholars if you have an issue

I really dont understand your point, or what you are trying to prove. What do you want to proof? What is your point? Make quotations and write your point in an understable manner. Write it down like a man, this is not kindergarten draw contest, in which you can sketch a random drawing and hope people will like it.

mihaitzateo
04-02-15, 23:03
Average Turk has a very strong facial hair.
You are not seeing such a thing at Tatars,people from Kazahstan and other real Turkic people.
So in my opinion,Turks have plenty of genetics from the people they assimilated and were on that land,with those people being mix of Kurdish people,Caucasian people and so on.
Arguing with most people from Turkey about the fact that they have very few real Turkic genes is quite useless,usually.
EDITT:
I was talking here about the genes of the Turks people.
From a cultural point of view,I think they are closest to Arabic and Persian people.
And I think current day Turkey is good how it is,Kurds should stop with their independence movement and rather integrate into Turkish society.
What I would like to see is that Turkey will give full freedom to Christian Orthodox religion.

isbara
04-02-15, 23:09
I am quite happy to have conducted this semi discussion, in which i only gave the data, arguments and the facts, because this has shown the real faces of the users and admins on this forum and that they could not be trusted, and anything they write should been doubt. Actually every information can be read, but being analytical is always important, so my advice is not to trust this forum. In this topic you can obviously see that several users have insulted me, but i get being punished(infraction or whatever it is called...) for critisizing a terrorist organization and for answering a comment that is full with insults. But no worries, all comments have been stored, and can be found at http://www.turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12206. You can easily ban me, remove or alter the messages or whatever you want to do, this has been a quite perfect tutorial to show how far away your kind of people are from science and the truths, and that the Indo European / Indo Iranian theories are all arranged false fabrications, and that the Sumerian Turkish culture is the ancestor of all modern Eurasian cultures.

isbara
04-02-15, 23:12
Average Turk has a very strong facial hair.
You are not seeing such a thing at Tatars,people from Kazahstan and other real Turkic people.
So in my opinion,Turks have plenty of genetics from the people they assimilated and were on that land,with those people being mix of Kurdish people,Caucasian people and so on.
Arguing with most people from Turkey about the fact that they have very few real Turkic genes is quite useless,usually.

Quite useless comment, all the points i have answered in my previous posts.

mihaitzateo
04-02-15, 23:23
And what someone was said here,I also agree,you are not independent if you are a slave to US and their International Monetary Fund.
This kind of "independence" do Kurds want to obtain,to become slaves at United States and have a huge amount of money to pay to IMF?
L

Ike
04-02-15, 23:24
I am quite happy to have conducted this semi discussion, in which i only gave the data, arguments and the facts, because this has shown the real faces of the users and admins on this forum and that they could not be trusted, and anything they write should been doubt. Actually every information can be read, but being analytical is always important, so my advice is not to trust this forum. In this topic you can obviously see that several users have insulted me, but i get being punished(infraction or whatever it is called...) for critisizing a terrorist organization and for answering a comment that is full with insults. But no worries, all comments have been stored, and can be found at http://www.turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12206. You can easily ban me, remove or alter the messages or whatever you want to do, this has been a quite perfect tutorial to show how far away your kind of people are from science and the truths, and that the Indo European / Indo Iranian theories are all arranged false fabrications, and that the Sumerian Turkish culture is the ancestor of all modern Eurasian cultures.

Relax dude, you're probably not of Turkish origin, so there's no need for all this.

mihaitzateo
04-02-15, 23:26
@Isabara:
Lol go look at some pictures of people from Kazahstan ,I mean Kazakhs,not Russians,to see how real Turks are looking like.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhs

isbara
04-02-15, 23:29
Relax dude, you're probably not of Turkish origin, so there's no need for all this.
You too, no stress, you are probably not a descendent of an Orangutan, because your mother obviously did not have any relationship with an Orangutan.

isbara
04-02-15, 23:31
@Isabara:
Lol go look at some pictures of people from Kazahstan ,I mean Kazakhs,not Russians,to see how real Turks are looking like.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhs

You are so incompetent you cannot even spell my name rightly, there is no way i am taking you seriously.

Goga
05-02-15, 00:20
And I think current day Turkey is good how it is,Kurds should stop with their independence movement and rather integrate into Turkish society.:laughing: Lol, If you like Turks, become a Muslim, learn Turkish forget your native idenity (& language) and go to Ankara. Don't tell others what to do. And don't decide for others what to do. We would rather fight another 1000 years than become part of a Turkish race. Maybe Romania should join Turkey. We, Kurds, rather die than join Turkey :grin:

Goga
05-02-15, 00:28
And what someone was said here,I also agree,you are not independent if you are a slave to US and their International Monetary Fund.
This kind of "independence" do Kurds want to obtain,to become slaves at United States and have a huge amount of money to pay to IMF?
LAnd your country is not a slave? Romania is one the most poorest countries in Europe. Your people are begging for money from everybody. Stop talking nonsense and start looking at the mirror. With all its riches, Kurdistan will become one of the most prosperous countries in the world. All 50 million Kurds will be millionaires. Only if Israel stopped helping ISIS and started helping the Kurds with proving us weapons. But it doesn't matter, we will achieve an independent Kurdistan without Israel, and when Israel will need us we also turn our back at them. Daesh will be completely defeated and exterminated very soon, but Sunni Arabs that are claiming Jerusalem will stay. So, Jews are making a huge mistake by NOT helping the Kurds, but helping Turkey and Daesh.

Alan
05-02-15, 00:32
And what someone was said here,I also agree,you are not independent if you are a slave to US and their International Monetary Fund.
This kind of "independence" do Kurds want to obtain,to become slaves at United States and have a huge amount of money to pay to IMF?
L

The question I already asked isbara. And you think Turkey is not so dependent on outside powers? Is this why NATO has several military basis and NATO missile defence system in it's country?
List me one country that is completely and developed. Even the most isolated holes like North Korea are dependent on the mercy of other countries.

Goga
05-02-15, 00:40
The question I already asked isbara. And you think Turkey is not so dependent on outside powers? Is this why NATO has several military basis and NATO missile defence system in it's country?
List me one country that is completely and developed. Even the most isolated holes like North Korea are dependent on the mercy of other countries.There're only very few countries in the world who're fighting against the US supremacy and are NOT dependent on the global imperialistic superpower called the US. 1) Russian, 2) Venezuela, 3) Iran and 4) North Korea. And it's not a wonder that the USA want to destroy all those 4 countries. The only country that can really defeat the US is Russia, though. It's very interesting what is going on in Ukraine and it seems that the Russians are winning in Ukraine. Russians promised Kurds in Rojava at least an autonomy, like a South Kurdistan autonomy

Goga
05-02-15, 00:51
Do you know that it is actually because of the Russians, Kurdistan became a separate region in Northern Iraq. In the seventies they were the architects and pushed Saddam Hussein to give the Kurds more freedom. Americans didn't care about us and they still don’t care about us. They are using us a much as possible, but we will see how this all ends. All what I know is that there're 50 million Kurds and that we're ready to fight to the bitter end. We will NEVER give up our homeland and our identity. Also maybe the US is the strongest superpower, but it's not the only one. We have got upcoming nations like China and Russia. At this moment it is not really relevant to talk about it, but we Kurds can find great allies in the near future at the east of Kurdistan. All we need is just 1 ally. We only need 1 ally who can provide us with weapons and has nothing against the independent Great Kurdistan and is against Islam. But I have got a VERY good feeling about it, so I don't really worry for OUR future...

Goga
05-02-15, 01:13
You guys noticed how Daesh is against Palestine and nationalistic Palestinian people, wants to conquer Rome (big LOL), but says nothing against Jerusalem. Why Daesh doesn't want to conquer Jerusalem as it wants to take Rome? Bingo, because Daesh is getting money and weapons from Israel (for oil from Syria and Iraq??). Israel tried (I guess, because it's failed) to destroy nationalism of the Palestinian people by replacing it with the Islam(ofascism). Daesh is a terror organisation that is figting for nothing but MONEY. And Israel is paying them. --- Same strategy tried Erdogan in Kurdistan. He is 'using' Islam to destroy the Kurdish nationalism. He hoped that the Kurds would forget about nationalism, Kurdistan, and become Islamists, since the Islamists believe only in 1 state, the Islamic State.

It is a great happiness that PKK is in Kurdistan. PKK stopped Daesh. PKK rescued the real Kurds in Shengal (Shexan) and saved our true native Kurdish identity. PKK stopped Turkey in Rojava and PKK will stop the Islamist traitors in South Kurdistan. Because of PKK warrior heroes there will be an order in the Middle East. PKK is unstoppable and together with PKK, we Kurds will achieve an independent Great Kurdistan!

Ike
05-02-15, 01:39
You too, no stress, you are probably not a descendent of an Orangutan, because your mother obviously did not have any relationship with an Orangutan.

I don't know anyone called Orangutan. Should that be any relative of yours (Orangutan Turkoglu Isbara), with whose fictional relationship with my mother you thought to offend me?

Goga
05-02-15, 01:55
Should that be any relative of yours (Orangutan Turkoglu Isbara)
Honestly without joking, did you know that besides the Sumerians, Indo-Europeans, Native Americans also the orangutans have Turkish roots (origin).

isbara
05-02-15, 02:12
:laughing: Lol, If you like Turks, become a Muslim, learn Turkish forget your native idenity (& language) and go to Ankara. Don't tell others what to do. And don't decide for others what to do. We would rather fight another 1000 years than become part of a Turkish race. Maybe Romania should join Turkey. We, Kurds, rather die than join Turkey :grin:
You are proud to give your *garbage*

Alan
05-02-15, 02:23
You guys noticed how Daesh is against Palestine and nationalistic Palestinian people, wants to conquer Rome (big LOL), but says nothing against Jerusalem. Why Daesh doesn't want to conquer Jerusalem as it wants to take Rome? Bingo, because Daesh is getting money and weapons from Israel (for oil from Syria and Iraq??). Israel tried (I guess, because it's failed) to destroy nationalism of the Palestinian people by replacing it with the Islam(ofascism). Daesh is a terror organisation that is figting for nothing but MONEY. And Israel is paying them. --- Same strategy tried Erdogan in Kurdistan. He is 'using' Islam to destroy the Kurdish nationalism. He hoped that the Kurds would forget about nationalism, Kurdistan, and become Islamists, since the Islamists believe only in 1 state, the Islamic State.

It is a great happiness that PKK is in Kurdistan. PKK stopped Daesh. PKK rescued the real Kurds in Shengal (Shexan) and saved our true native Kurdish identity. PKK stopped Turkey in Rojava and PKK will stop the Islamist traitors in South Kurdistan. Because of PKK warrior heroes there will be an order in the Middle East. PKK is unstoppable and together with PKK, we Kurds will achieve an independent Great Kurdistan!

sometimes you act so extremely brainless. Only Isbara exceeds you in that. I have never heard ISIS beeing anti Palestinian country. How so if a Hamas itself shows sympathy to them. Who do you think controls Jersusalem? Palestinians or Israelis? So if ISIS says it wants to conquer Jerusalem who do you think they are threatening with this? ISIS is generally against state buildings other than their own huge khalifat which includes Palestine. ISIS will never be able to attack Israel as lons as 1. they haven't gained controll of the border region with Jordan. 2. They haven't taken control of Jordan itself. 3. Or they have taken the control in Southwest Syria, which is stronghold of Assad. So how are they going to reach Israel /Palestine?

Now you didn't thought about that, did you? Just like you don't seem to think much anyways before you throw incredible dung into the room.

Goga
05-02-15, 02:36
sometimes you act so extremely brainless. Only Isbara exceeds you in that. I have never heard ISIS beeing anti Palestinian country. How so if a Hamas itself shows sympathy to them. Who do you think controls Jersusalem? Palestinians or Israelis? So if ISIS says it wants to conquer Jerusalem who do you think they are threatening with this? ISIS is generally against state buildings other than their own huge khalifat which includes Palestine. ISIS will never be able to attack Israel as lons as 1. they haven't gained controll of the border region with Jordan. 2. They haven't taken control of Jordan itself. 3. Or they have taken the control in Southwest Syria, which is stronghold of Assad. So how are they going to reach Israel /Palestine?

Now you didn't thought about that, did you? Just like you don't seem to think much anyways before you throw incredible dung into the room.I don't know what you are studying, but you seem to be very ignorant about politics.

A few month ago Daesh (maybe it was Al-Nusra, same as Daesh and also supported by Israel) infiltrated in Golan Heights. Region between Israel and Syria. Daesh was there not to kill the Jews, but to kill Hezbollah (Shia, Iran allies). FACT 1. Daesh terrorist are getting a medical treatments in Israel! FACT 2! Etc.

With Daesh Israel is trying 1) to destroy Palestinian nationalism, FIRST enemy of nationalism is Islam and 2) to outsmart Irans satellite organization, Hezbollah. Daesh is getting money and weapons from Turkey and Israel!!!

Israel and Turkey were fooling the US by using the US creation/toy, the Daesh, for their own purposes and hidden agenda. After the Russians also started to use Daesh through their Chechen agents the US interfered and I honestly don't know where this will lead to. IF the US is smart, it should eliminate this virus as soon as possible. And if not the US, PKK will do it. PKK will exterminate Daesh...

isbara
05-02-15, 02:37
Do you know that it is actually because of the Russians, Kurdistan became a separate region in Northern Iraq. In the seventies they were the architects and pushed Saddam Hussein to give the Kurds more freedom. Americans didn't care about us and they still don’t care about us. They are using us a much as possible, but we will see how this all ends. All what I know is that there're 50 million Kurds and that we're ready to fight to the bitter end. We will NEVER give up our homeland and our identity. Also maybe the US is the strongest superpower, but it's not the only one. We have got upcoming nations like China and Russia. At this moment it is not really relevant to talk about it, but we Kurds can find great allies in the near future at the east of Kurdistan. All we need is just 1 ally. We only need 1 ally who can provide us with weapons and has nothing against the independent Great Kurdistan and is against Islam. But I have got a VERY good feeling about it, so I don't really worry for OUR future...

Listen to what the head of pkk, Armenian originated öcalan has to say about this subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NTDSIGgf04

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn6lAQZNPdA

He is admitting everything, he admits that he and the PKK are subcontractors and slaves of powerful states and admits that he is fooling around with the Kurds and using them for his own purposes. This is how pathetic you terrorists are, no honour, cant die for what he believes, has to be a ***** of someone with power. If you are smart you need to see that the Turks are the only nation that wants what is good for you. The others, are not interested at all in establishing a Kurdistan. You should probably know of the imaginary great middle eastern project, in which the Kurdistan = 2nd Israel. So stop being a fool, stop being used by pions like Armenian öcalan and Jew barzani and talabani. And know that people like ahmet türk are of Türkmen origin, and all are seeking ways to make their own much more richer! Did you know that öcalan was an MİT agent? All i can see, is that people like you dont represent Kurds!

Goga
05-02-15, 02:43
Listen to what the head of pkk, Armenian originated öcalan has to say about this subjectI don't want to discuss with you. 1) you don't want to learn my native language Kurmanji Kurdish as your first language, 2) you're watching to much porn.

Ike
05-02-15, 03:23
Honestly without joking, did you know that besides the Sumerians, Indo-Europeans, Native Americans also the orangutans have Turkish roots (origin).

I'm betting 5:1 that Isabara is more Kurdish than Turkish :)

Alan
05-02-15, 03:46
I don't know what you are studying, but you seem to be very ignorant about politics.

A few month ago Daesh (maybe it was Al-Nusra, same as Daesh and also supported by Israel) infiltrated in Golan Heights. Region between Israel and Syria. Daesh was there not to kill the Jews, but to kill Hezbollah (Shia, Iran allies). FACT 1. Daesh terrorist are getting a medical treatments in Israel! FACT 2! Etc.

I can't add anything more than that you sometimes act extraordenery retarded. Facts my ... . Daesh and Al Nusra was never the same beside having similar ideologies. Are you living in a cave totally cut from the rest of the world or are you simply total ignorant. Or how could you missed the war going on between Al Nusra and ISIS until even today? ISIS was once connectted to Al Qaida but they were never the same .
Al Nusra infiltrated into Golan heights? Give me the source for that. Israel attacked the Hezbollah when they saw movement in the Golan Heights. Where do you think those Hezbollah were going? And in this movement Iranian agents died. Why should I as a KURD feel sorry for these Iranian agents and commanders who kill Kurds in East Kurdistan on daily basis and are beside Turkey the biggest obstacle to Kurdish independence? You are fast in attacking Turkey as one of our opponents but I never see you criticize Iran/Persians why I might ask? Are you pro Iran or Pro Kurd or why do you feel hurt about this?

I know that you are a Pan Iranian Persian loving individual. guys like you are the biggest obstacle to a free Kurdistan. So gtfo you wannabe patriot who is insulting 80% of the Kurdish population and beeing the mouthpiece of Iran. I and many people (even the Yezidi posters like KurdishPatriot) on the other Forum already recognized othat you are a Pan Aryan Persian lover who always defended Iran. You would prefer living under Persian rule than being free just for the sake of Pan Aryanism nonsense. You are so emotional that I have yet to see you write a single post which does not appear as if you are seconds away from a heart attack.
And you don't need to write big, black and all that stuff it isn't going to make you appear any wiser. I am totally disgust by your stupidity.

Goga
05-02-15, 03:58
Al Nusra infiltrated into Golan heights? Give me the source for that. Israel attacked the Hezbollah when they saw movement in the Golan Heights(what is their right) and in this movement Iranian agents died. Whats wrong about that? Are you pro Iran or Pro Kurd or why do you feel heard about this?STOP insulting me. You're wrong big time and do you know how ridiculous you sound after your insults and being wrong! I'm also done with you too. Last thing what I've to say is this: there's and there will never be room for Islamists in Kurdistan. PKK will get all the MUSLIM traitors. Last lesson for you here, Daesh = ISIS = Al-Qaeda = Al-Nusra; all the same Sunni Islamofascist terrorists. ALL are Sunni Muslims who fight for a so called Islamic Caliphate. But they're fooling the ordinary Muslims. They fight for Israel and the Jews. And are ALL against the Kurdish nationalism and therefore Kurdistan. And here some articles for you about recent events at the Golan Heigts:

"Al-Nusra Front captures Syrian Golan Heights crossing. Al-Qaeda-affiliate carried out operation in cooperation with Saudi-backed rebels" http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/al-nusra-front-captures-syrian-golan-heights-crossing-747933668#sthash.c4m1e5VI.dpuf


"Hezbollah squeezed out of Golan by Jabhat al-Nusra, Israel": http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/09/hezbollah-threatened-by-al-nusra-syria-militants-israel.html##ixzz3QprMXFd0israel.html##ixzz3QprMXF d0

Goga
05-02-15, 04:15
Why should I as a KURD feel sorry for these Iranian agents and commanders who kill Kurds in East Kurdistan on daily basis and are beside Turkey the biggest obstacle to Kurdish independence? You are fast in attacking Turkey as one of our opponents but I never see you criticize Iran/Persians why I might ask? Are you pro Iran or Pro Kurd or why do you feel hurt about this?I'm against Persia. After we liberate Northern & Southern Kurdistan we will go after East Kurdistan. Turkey is our biggest obstacle. When we take down Turkey everything will be much easier for us. FIRST Turkey, and THEN Iran. Why do you and your leaders in South Kurdistan help and love Turks so much? Why do they (Barzani and his Islamic tribe) fought against Rojava and PKK. Why were they isolating Rojava and closing the borders only to please Turkey. Why Barznai retreat his 10000 big army from Shengal and took all the weapons from the Yezidi Kurds and gave our homeland, Shengal, to Daesh? Is Shengal not Kurdistan? Shengal is the heart of Great Kurdistan, but Shengal is for sure not part of KRG aka Islamic State of Barzanistan. As long Islam is dominant in Barzanistan, we the real Kurds feel sorry for you Islamists and we will never be part of you. Why did Barzani KILL thousands of Yezidi Kurds together with Daesh and Turkey in Shengal? Because of Barzani thousands of the Ezidi Kurds died. And he will pay for their deaths. No TIME, no money, no cars, no houses will ever let forget us what Barzani, the Turk lover, did to the Ezidi Kurds. The only real Kurds are those who came and saved the Ezdi Kurds from slaughter. The real Kurds are those who came from Rojava, PKK and Eastern Kurdistan who are fighting against Islam and Turkey. Barzani the Islamists is fighting FOR Turkey...

Aberdeen
05-02-15, 04:23
I'm betting 5:1 that Isabara is more Kurdish than Turkish :)

Isbara and Goga are twins, separated at birth although Isbara was raised by Turks and Goga was raised by Persians. That's why they can't marry one another, despite the heat between them.

Goga
05-02-15, 04:28
"UN report cites contacts between Israel, Nusra Front in Golan Heights. WASHINGTON — The United Nations has determined that Israel maintains relations with Al Qaida’s Nusra Front for the Defense of Levant.
A report by UN secretary-general Ban Ki-moon asserted that Israel was meeting with Nusra in the Syrian portion of the Golan Heights. Over the last year, Nusra has led Sunni rebels into expelling the Syrian Army from some 90 percent of the Quneitra province, which includes the Golan." http://www.worldtribune.com/2014/12/10/un-report-cites-contacts-israel-nusra-front-golan-heights/

Ike
05-02-15, 04:32
And i am betting that your mother was raped by an orangutan, thats why your head in the picture looks so unhuman..

You've just proved you know nothing about anthropology, physiology or geography. This is Canadian head, and orangutans don't live in Canada. Are you sure you know where Anatolia is?

Goga
05-02-15, 04:35
Isbara and Goga are twins, separated at birth although Isbara was raised by Turks and Goga was raised by Persians. That's why they can't marry one another, despite the heat between them.I'm stronger, smarter and more beautiful than a Persian, I'm a MEDE. The Medes were daddies of Persians. Their time will come, but after we are finished with the Turks. Nobody is going to fool us Kurds to start a war against Persian without any guaranties. And only for Israel? What about Kurdistan? Our number 1 enemy is Turkey at this moment, because Turks are Sunni Muslim Daesh Terrorists. Our number 1 guarantee we demand from the US to give us weapons, to help us to bring down Turkey. We only want weapons, nothing more. When the US (and Israel) will help us against the Turks, we will know for sure that the US is not fooling us and not playing double games. Then we will help the US to bring down Persia. Without Kurds the Jews and the US will NEVER defeat Persia. They need the Kurds to defeat Persia. But Kurds are not going to help anybody without getting help first. And our priority is Islamofascist Sunni terrorist state Turkey! Our eyes and focus are/is on Turkey and not on Persian at this moment, we don't need distraction and wasting our energy...

Ike
05-02-15, 04:46
I though you were all going back to Zoroastrianism once you get rid of Turks?

Goga
05-02-15, 04:58
I though you were all going back to Zoroastrianism once you get rid of Turks?Brother, don't have anydoubts. We WILL get rid of Turks as we will get rid of Arabs and Persians!

I'm not a person to decide what others should believe in as long Islam is defeated in Kurdistan I'll be a very happy person. Because of Islam, there's no Kurdistan. Islam is the enemy of humanity. Only a small part of Kurds was Zoroastrian, I think Sorani Kurds were Zoroastrians and maybe some Feyli & Luri Kurds in Easter Kurdistan (Iranian). But before Islamization most Kurds (Zaza, Gorani, Kurmanji, Feyli etc) were like me, and were all the SUN worshippers. I've still that original and native true Kurdish faith. Some Kurdish Islamic leaders in South Kurdistan tried to genocide my people and exterminate our religion.


"Izady states that the Yazdani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazdani) faiths were the primary religion of the inhabitants of the Zagros Mountains (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagros_Mountains), including Kurds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazd%C3%A2nism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazd%C3%A2nism)

LeBrok
05-02-15, 05:23
Isbara is banned for 3 months. I'm surprised Goga kept his cool very well. :)

LeBrok
05-02-15, 05:26
Isbara and Goga are twins, separated at birth although Isbara was raised by Turks and Goga was raised by Persians. That's why they can't marry one another, despite the heat between them. Under different circumstances they could have been the best friends.

Ike
05-02-15, 14:11
Brother, don't have anydoubts. We WILL get rid of Turks as we will get rid of Arabs and Persians!

I'm not a person to decide what others should believe in as long Islam is defeated in Kurdistan I'll be a very happy person. Because of Islam, there's no Kurdistan. Islam is the enemy of humanity. Only a small part of Kurds was Zoroastrian, I think Sorani Kurds were Zoroastrians and maybe some Feyli & Luri Kurds in Easter Kurdistan (Iranian). But before Islamization most Kurds (Zaza, Gorani, Kurmanji, Feyli etc) were like me, and were all the SUN worshippers. I've still that original and native true Kurdish faith. Some Kurdish Islamic leaders in South Kurdistan tried to genocide my people and exterminate our religion.


"Izady states that the Yazdani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazdani) faiths were the primary religion of the inhabitants of the Zagros Mountains (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagros_Mountains), including Kurds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazd%C3%A2nism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazd%C3%A2nism)


Disregarding the question of ancient religion of Kurds, Islam has turned up to be just a political and genocidal movement, and I totally support your fight to get rid of Turkish, Arab, US, UK or whichever administration, and disconnection with Islam because it has shown nothing but despise and will to destroy your culture, beliefs, ethnic dressing, language, etc. It would be just great if it could be achieved without weapons.

"The Turkish Mufti of the Ottoman Empire wrote in his book 'Taj ül-Tawarikh' (The Crown of Histories):

'It has been decreed by God that the Kurds cannot found a state because, once upon a time, a very ugly and frightening man visited the prophet Mohammed. The prophet was scared, and asked the man from whence he came. The guest answered in a friendly and respectful manner that he was a Kurd. The prophet lifted his head to the sky and said, 'Thou, God, must not allow the Kurds to unify; their unification would cause the destruction of the world"




BTW, there are also Gorani people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorani_people) on Balkan. How did yours got their name, and what parts of Kurdistan do they live?

Sile
05-02-15, 18:19
The stupid west blundered again, they after WW1 when the four powers sub-divided Turkey should have really and truly divided it.................the area would have been a better place

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_S%C3%A8vres

Goga
05-02-15, 21:46
Disregarding the question of ancient religion of Kurds, Islam has turned up to be a just political and genocidal movement, and I totally support your fight to get rid of Turkish, Arab, US, UK or whichever administration, and disconnection with Islam because it has shown nothing but despise and will to destroy your culture, beliefs, ethnic dressing, language, etc. It would be just great if it could be achieved without weapons.

"The Turkish Mufti of the Ottoman Empire wrote in his book 'Taj ül-Tawarikh' (The Crown of Histories):

'It has been decreed by God that the Kurds cannot found a state because, once upon a time, a very ugly and frightening man visited the prophet Mohammed. The prophet was scared, and asked the man from whence he came. The guest answered in a friendly and respectful manner that he was a Kurd. The prophet lifted his head to the sky and said, 'Thou, God, must not allow the Kurds to unify; their unification would cause the destruction of the world"




BTW, there are also Gorani people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorani_people) on Balkan. How did yours got their name, and what parts of Kurdistan do they live?I believe that becauseof Islam Kurds are divided. And according to me Islam is biggest threat toKurdish nationalism.

I don't know muchabout Gorani people, but they are Kurds and live in the eastern parts of Kurdistan and are actually very similar to Zazaki Kurds who live in northwestern parts of Kurdistan.

Goga
05-02-15, 21:48
The stupid west blundered again, they after WW1 when the four powers sub-divided Turkey should have really and truly divided it.................the area would have been a better place

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_S%C3%A8vres
Actually American are still making the same mistakes as British people 100 years ago. Americans learned nothing from history.

Yetos
05-02-15, 22:22
Actually American are still making the same mistakes as British people 100 years ago. Americans learned nothing from history.

Goga sorry,

the biggest mistake, milleniums now is the Kurds them shelves,

when where united? we heard them from Alexander's time.
Known from the early Byzantine times, but never made something their own,
they follow others, but they always divide,

believe me if Kurds can not unify, they might lose,

to understand me find and read 3 things,
1) how Greeks of Byzantine empire act as divided after 4rth crusade, (stupid inner claims and wars)
2) who the Kurds supported even before battle of Manjikert, instead make their own something? WHY?
3) when Ottoman empire fall, Balkans liberated, Middle East etc etc, who supported Neo-Turks to do the dirty jobs? and lost their chance of own homeland,
When Lawrence and Arab Revolt was in Damaskos, outside your homes.
When Sykes /Picot, Sevres, run to Huraytan

believe me, such chances not even 1 per century,
if Kurds can not unify, might lost,

so inner diplomacy must work among Kurdish parts and tribes,
at least for next decade,


plz do not take it personally, nothing personal, simply cold blood truth,
good luck on your dream:good_job:


DO NOT EXPECT YOUR FREEDOM FROM OTHERS
THE OTHERS USE THE DIVIDE AND CONQUER THEORY.
IF DIVIDED, EASY TO BE CONQUERED

mihaitzateo
05-02-15, 23:18
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkification#Imprecise_meaning_of_T.C3.BCrk
"During the 19th century, the word Türk was a mildly opprobrious term used to refer to Anatolian villagers; the Ottoman elite identified themselves as Ottomans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Turks), not as Turks.[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkification#cite_note-77) In the late 19th century, as European ideas of nationalism were adopted by the Ottoman elite, and as it became clear that the Turkish-speakers of Anatolia were the most loyal supporters of Ottoman rule, the term Türk took on a much more positive connotation.[78] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkification#cite_note-78) During Ottoman times, the millet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millet_%28Ottoman_Empire%29) system defined communities on a religious basis, and a residue of this remains today in that Turkish villagers will commonly consider as Turks only those who profess the Sunni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni) faith, and will consider Turkish-speaking Jews, Christians, or even Alevis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alevis) to be non-Turks.[79] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkification#cite_note-Meeker_1971:_322-79) The imprecision of the appellation Türk can also be seen with other ethnic names, such as Kürt, which is often applied by western Anatolians to anyone east of Adana, even those who speak only Turkish.[79] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkification#cite_note-Meeker_1971:_322-79) On the other hand, Kurdish-speaking or Arabic-speaking Sunnis of eastern Anatolia are often considered to be Turks.[80] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkification#cite_note-80) Thus, the category Türk, like other ethnic categories popularly used in Turkey, does not have a uniform usage. In recent years, centrist Turkish politicians have attempted to redefine this category in a more multi-cultural way, emphasizing that a Türk is anyone who is a citizen of the Republic of Turkey.[81] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkification#cite_note-81) Now article 66 of the Turkish Constitution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Constitution) defines a "Turk" as anyone
who is "bound to the Turkish state through the bond of citizenship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship)"."

The Ottoman Empire could have spoken as well Latin or Greece or Armenian,Turkic is a bad chosen language for them.
A real Turk will have problems with supporting the lots of heat that is in Turkey.
In Kazakh people there is a lot of C and Q paternal lines,which makes a lot of sense,since original Turkic speakers came from there.
What is in Turkey,I guess some Turkic people moved South,in Iran and even passed and mixed with Arabs and these people went and conquered Byzantine Empire.
It is clear that they were already Iran-Arabized people,when they conquered Byzantine Empire.
See a very strong difference between people from Turkey and Kazakh people,in Kazakhstan are lots of minorities and all are getting a very good treatment.
I could not say same about Turkey.

mihaitzateo
05-02-15, 23:27
Here more about the fact that Turkic speaker people that conquered Byzantin Empire were in fact an Arabized-Iranizied people:
The language spoken that time was Ottoman Turkish:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Turkish_language
Their alphabet was an Arabic Alphabet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Turkish_alphabet
Rather these people came from Turkmens and further mixed with Iranic and Arabic people,they were not really Turkic people anymore.
Turkmens are partially Turkic,partially Iranic,not even those are real Turkic people.

Aberdeen
06-02-15, 01:07
The stupid west blundered again, they after WW1 when the four powers sub-divided Turkey should have really and truly divided it.................the area would have been a better place

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_S%C3%A8vres

We can also blame the British for uniting the Arabian Peninsula under a Wahabi sheik. Now wasn't that a great idea?