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Maciamo
15-02-15, 10:43
All the attention about the new Haak et al. 2015 (http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf) paper has been concentrated (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30878-Massive-migration-from-the-steppe-is-a-source-for-Indo-European-languages-in-Europe) on the Yamna R1b. Nobody cared to notice another important discovery, the first ancient I2a2a1 (M223>CTS9183+) sample. They didn't test for M284 though, but L1195 was negative.

So far all the Mesolithic and Neolithic I2a samples, including Megalithic ones from France, were I2a1. This is the first I2a2.

Nowadays CTS9183 exists mostly as I2-M284, which is found essentially in the British Isles, especially in Lowland Scotland and Ulster, but it actually has a very wide distribution. The FTDNA I2-M223 project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/M223-Y-Clan/default.aspx?section=ymap) shows that M284 is also found in Finland, Scandinavia, Germany, France and Spain.

The Spanish Megalithic sample from the Pyrenees dates from 3900-3600 BCE, which is a bit older than Ken Nordtvedt's age for M284. However it is very unlikely that all European I2a2a1 spread from the Pyrenees region just around that time, so I'd think that I2-CTS9183 is at least one millennium older this sample.

Fire Haired14
15-02-15, 12:31
Thanks for the info, I didn't notice that. Someone on this forum also made a thread about a "British" I2a1b clade found in Neolithic Spain and Germany.

Other intersting results is one of the Motalas from Mesolithic Sweden appears to have belonged subclade of I2a1-M26.

I made a convenient list of the Y DNA results and forgot about them after that.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yZT6gFhWfWoOPAcmQe6edjmA-VM6F4BI4ezn0kOU91Q/edit

I've been focusing on autosomal info in the paper for the last few days.

Fire Haired14
15-02-15, 12:34
Just remembered: 2/2 Megalithic Y DNA samples from France were I2a1(M26 based on STRs) and one of the Gok males was found to be positive for I2 and an ancestor clade of I.

Do you think most I1 today is the result of some-type of post-Neolithic founder effect? Or is there enough diversity in I1(and I2a2) for them to have been popular in the pre-IEs of central-north Europe?

bicicleur
15-02-15, 13:10
some other sample caught my attention :
I2a1b1 - L161.1 , 'D-Isles' was also found in Spain, Els Trocs, 5310-5206 BC
'D-Isles' is mainly British, and it was tought to be of German origin, as it also is found in Germany and Poland

2 things strike me :
new unexpected clades found in the European neolithic : F*, C-V20, H2 ..
how the subclades of I were allready very intermingled some 8000 years ago
much of the known subclades today must be the result of founder effects

bicicleur
15-02-15, 13:14
Just remembered: 2/2 Megalithic Y DNA samples from France were I2a1(M26 based on STRs) and one of the Gok males was found to be positive for I2 and an ancestor clade of I.

Do you think most I1 today is the result of some-type of post-Neolithic founder effect? Or is there enough diversity in I1(and I2a2) for them to have been popular in the pre-IEs of central-north Europe?

what was the Y-DNA coverage of the male Gök samples? are they reliable?

bicicleur
15-02-15, 13:21
Thanks for the info, I didn't notice that. Someone on this forum also made a thread about a "British" I2a1b clade found in Neolithic Spain and Germany.

Other intersting results is one of the Motalas from Mesolithic Sweden appears to have belonged subclade of I2a1-M26.

I made a convenient list of the Y DNA results and forgot about them after that.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yZT6gFhWfWoOPAcmQe6edjmA-VM6F4BI4ezn0kOU91Q/edit

I've been focusing on autosomal info in the paper for the last few days.

you mean Motala 9 on your list
in the study http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf
on page 25 it says I2a1 , not I2a1a1a
where did you get that info ? was there enough coverage ? could there have been a false positive ?

bicicleur
15-02-15, 13:33
All the attention about the new Haak et al. 2015 (http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf) paper has been concentrated (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30878-Massive-migration-from-the-steppe-is-a-source-for-Indo-European-languages-in-Europe) on the Yamna R1b. Nobody cared to notice another important discovery, the first ancient I2a2a1 (M223>CTS9183+) sample. They didn't test for M284 though, but L1195 was negative.

Nowadays CTS9183 exists mostly as I2-M284, which is found essentially in the British Isles, especially in Lowland Scotland and Ulster, but it actually has a very wide distribution. The FTDNA I2-M223 project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/M223-Y-Clan/default.aspx?section=ymap) shows that M284 is also found in Finland, Scandinavia, Germany, France and Spain.

The Spanish Megalithic sample from the Pyrenees dates from 3900-3600 BCE, which is a bit older than Ken Nordtvedt's age for M284. However it is very unlikely that all European I2a2a1 spread from the Pyrenees region just around that time, so I'd think that I2-CTS9183 is at least one millennium older this sample.

I have a theory about I2a2a :

I2a2a originated on Doggerland and spread when Doggerland began to drown, some 9000 Years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doggerland

when the first farmers arrived they would have been living along the Atlantic and North Sea coast lines, an area that was not covered by the LBK / Cardial expansion

It is not possible to check, but I haven't found anything that contradicts it.
As you say, till now no anciant I2a2 was found.
The present distribution of this subclade supports this idea.

sparkey
16-02-15, 18:00
Nowadays CTS9183 exists mostly as I2-M284, which is found essentially an the British Isles, especially in Lowland Scotland and Ulster, but it actually has a very wide distribution. The FTDNA I2-M223 project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/M223-Y-Clan/default.aspx?section=ymap) shows that M284 is also found in Finland, Scandinavia, Germany, France and Spain.

The Spanish Megalithic sample from the Pyrenees dates from 3900-3600 BCE, which is a bit older than Ken Nordtvedt's age for M284. However it is very unlikely that all European I2a2a1 spread from the Pyrenees region just around that time, so I'd think that I2-CTS9183 is at least one millennium older this sample.

CTS9183 actually covers a lot more of I2-M223 than just I2-M284. It also covers all of I2-L1229 (a.k.a. I2-M223-Roots) and I2-CTS10100 (a.k.a. I2-M223-Cont), and hence includes almost all modern I2-M223 other than a few outliers. So we probably don't really know much about the placement of this sample on the M223 tree. The L1195- result means that it is not on the same branch as most modern I2-M284 (a.k.a. I2-M223-Isles). The L702- L801- L147.3- results mean that it is not on the same branches as most modern I2-CTS10100 (a.k.a. I2-M223-Cont). That seems to leave I2-L1229 (a.k.a. I2-M223-Roots) as a definite possibility, or, of course, any one among a number of outlier groups.

Jason Neuharth
07-03-15, 20:58
M223 like myself which i fall down stream from CTS9183 which I'm positive for the SNP. As for Doggerland was gone by the time my people made it to northwest Europe. Two groups in M223 that are not positve for this is basic1 and basic2. I can see with ancient DNA samples we were pushed or moved north with the R1bs.