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Maciamo
19-02-15, 20:50
I have updated the genome-wide section of my Genetic history of the Iberian peninsula (http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/spain_portugal_dna.shtml#african) by analysing Haak 2015's admixtures (http://biorxiv.org/highwire/filestream/3855/field_highwire_adjunct_files/0/013433-1.pdf) (K=20).

Haak et al.'s autosomal data shows that the Basques and other North Spaniards differ from other Spaniards by the absence of Bedouin-like (purple), Caucaso-Gedrosian (greyish green), and East African (pink) admixtures. These three components are found among the Southwest Asians (Arabs) and North Africans. These undeniably represent the genetic contributions of the Arabs and Berbers from the Moorish period, but also probably to a considerable extent that of the ancient Phoenicians.

The Bedouin-like admixture is the dominant component and accounts for approximately 10% of the Central and South Spanish DNA. This admixture peaks in Saudi Arabia and Yemen and some of it could indicate medieval Arabic ancestry. Then comes the Caucaso-Gedrosian (5%), which is found mostly in the Middle East, but is absent from Morocco and most of Algeria. This admixture is found in Tunisia (8%) and Sardinia (3%) though, which strongly suggests that the Phoenicians brought it to the West Mediterranean. The East African admixture only makes up 1% of Spanish genomes, the same percentage as in Sicilians and North African Jews. Berbers and Egyptians have about 10% of this admixture. Neolithic farmers would have contributed most of the 50% of the orange admixture, which represents the Early European Farmer admixture taken from actual Neolithic samples. Some Neolithic admixture would have come from the Phoenicians and the Moors. Comparing the admixtures found in Lebanon, Sardinia and Tunisia, it seems that the ancient Phoenicians had about one third of Bedouin-like (purple), one third of Caucaso-Gedrosian (greyish green) and one third of Neolithic Farmer (orange).

Since the Caucaso-Gedrosian was probably brought to Spain mostly by Phoenicians (being nearly absent from Algerian, Mozabite and BedouinB), it can be inferred that the Phoenicians contributed approximately 12% of the DNA in an average South Spanish genome (4% for each of the three admixtures). The other 6% of the Bedouin-like admixture would be medieval Arabic in origin. Using the proportions of modern Saudi Arabs as a proxy, we can estimate that the Bedouin-like admixture made up 75% of medieval Arabs' genomes. That would give a total of about 8% of Arabic DNA in a South Spanish genome today.


What about the 80% left ?


The remaining 80% of the Central/South Spanish genome is half West European Mesolithic Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) and half Early European Farmer (EEF). The Haak 2015 paper shows that Early Neolithic farmers from northern Spain (Catalonia) had between 0 and 10% of Mesolithic HG admixture (the rest being only EEF). This had increased to nearly 20% in all samples by the Middle Neolithic (so 80% EEF and 20% WHG). The assimilation of the WHG population undoubtedly continued during the Late Neolithic and Chalcolithic, probably reaching the parity observed in the Basque people in the 2nd millennium BCE.

The complete absence of Caucaso-Gedrosian admixture (i.e. the "Armenian-like" component of Yamna samples) among Neolithic farmers as well as modern Basques and North Spaniards (including Catalans) means that by the time R1b spread around Iberia their carriers' genomes had become so diluted that they had lost virtually all their Yamna admixture.

Considering that the vast majority of Spanish R1b belong to the DF27 branch, and mostly the deep L176.2 subclade for the Catalans and the M153 subclade for the Basques, it is not unlikely that the Spanish R1b has its roots in Southwest France, and that the introgression to the Iberian peninsula only dates from the Iron Age to Middle Ages. R1b could have come in several waves, from the Hallstatt Celts (500 BCE) and ancient Vascons/Gascons to the Franks (800-1000 CE), and spread southward with the Reconquista.

Hallstatt Celts would have carried R1b-U152, though, and the fact that U152 only makes up between 1 and 5% of the Spanish male lineages today can either mean that:

A) the Celts didn't have a significant impact on the Iberian population (unlikely considering that over half of the peninsula was Celtic speaking before the Roman conquest)

B) Celtic paternal lineages were replaced by haplogroups of later invaders, be them Germanic (R1b-S21, I1, I2a2a, R1a) or of Gascon origin (R1b-DF27). Surprisingly it is essentially the Gascon/Basque lineages that predominate today, even though M153 is only about 1300 years old. This would suggest a very recent, and indeed medieval replacement of a large percentage of paternal lineages.

Alan
20-02-15, 05:53
shouldn't Caucasus_Gedrosia be a trace of Indo Europeans, since it is found virtually in all Europeans and even stronger in everyone else there .I doubt it has anything to do with Phoenicians.

Maciamo
20-02-15, 09:00
shouldn't Caucasus_Gedrosia be a trace of Indo Europeans, since it is found virtually in all Europeans.I doubt it has anything to do with Phoenicians.

Indo-Europeans did bring Caucasus_Gedrosia with them, but it got diluted on the way, and by the time R1b-P312 people reached Iberia not much of it was left. That explains why the Basques and Catalans have none of it despite having over 80% of R1b.

Using the archeology of bronze age and the presence of horses, I was able to determine that R1b did not enter Iberia until 1800 BCE, but only in small groups and in limited regions like Murcia and central Castile. It wasn't until 1200 to 500 BCE that R1b really spread around Iberia. In the case of the Basque, the TMRCA of R1b-M153 suggests it did start spreading until 1300 years ago, but could only have reached high percentages of R1b later in the Middle Ages, a good 3500 to 4000 years after R1b reached Central Europe.

There is a good chance that the Reconquista also spread many northern male lineages southward, changing a lot the pre-Moorish Y-DNA frequencies.

Therefore the dominance of R1b in Iberia appears to be a fairly recent phenomenon, contrarily to the rest of Europe.

bicicleur
20-02-15, 09:27
This is a theory to explain the difference in admixture between southern Spanish and Basque, but it is not a certainty, I'm sure other theories can be found to fit the equasion.
So you have to support it by other facts which you mention here.

But I have some questions.
You suppose Spanish BB are not R1b, while German BB are.
Does the German BB have another origin than Spanish BB?

Where did you find the history re introcuction of horses in Spain?

Officially bronze age started 1800 BC in Spain. First bronze age culture was El Argar, other followed soon.
But check the history of La Bastida. http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Bastida_de_Totana
They are the progenitors of El Argar, they started to conquer the El Argar area 1800 BC.
La Bastida is a fortification built on a hilltop 2000 BC. The military fortification was in Anatolian/Mesopotamian style.
Since 2200 BC there was a village on that hilltop which was burnt down by overseas invaders 2000 BC.
They buried the death in jars or stone cists. 1800 BC they started building fortifications and new towns in the El Argar area.

The La Bastida people were a small tribe, possibly R1b, but they were not numerous.
It looks like other bronze age cultures in Iberia were indogenous imitators of El Argar.
I didn't find anything about horses and La Bastida/El Argar

Maciamo
20-02-15, 10:46
But I have some questions.
You suppose Spanish BB are not R1b, while German BB are.
Does the German BB have another origin than Spanish BB?

I have explained all this in detail here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29290-Why-R1b-couldn-t-have-been-spread-around-Western-Europe-by-the-Bell-Beaker-people) and here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29565-Bell-Beakers-were-a-multicultural-phenomenon-amp-trade-network-not-an-ethnic-culture).



Officially bronze age started 1800 BC in Spain. First bronze age culture was El Argar, other followed soon.
But check the history of La Bastida. http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Bastida_de_Totana
They are the progenitors of El Argar, they started to conquer the El Argar area 1800 BC.
La Bastida is a fortification built on a hilltop 2000 BC. The military fortification was in Anatolian/Mesopotamian style.
Since 2200 BC there was a village on that hilltop which was burnt down by overseas invaders 2000 BC.
They buried the death in jars or stone cists. 1800 BC they started building fortifications and new towns in the El Argar area.

The La Bastida people were a small tribe, possibly R1b, but they were not numerous.
It looks like other bronze age cultures in Iberia were indogenous imitators of El Argar.
I didn't find anything about horses and La Bastida/El Argar

If El Argar really originated in La Bastida, and La Bastida were immigrants from Anatolia or Mesopotamia, then they wouldn't be Indo-European R1b. All I can say with confidence is that R1b-P312 (and subclades) was not widespread and perhaps not even present in Iberia before 1800 BCE, and that it wasn't until the first millennium BCE that R1b became a major lineage in the peninsula. I on't venture to speculate more without additional data about deep R1b subclades and their TMRCA in Iberia, or ancient Y-DNA from Bronze Age Iberia.

Melancon
20-02-15, 12:07
Hmm, interesting; I have always heard from people in Europe tell me that the Spanish people of the South and the Portuguese people were not white. They always told me the Northern Spaniards were the white people; while the Andalusians were Arabs.

I've interacted with Spaniards before and I can tell that there may be some sort of Arabic (non-white European) admixture. I've noticed they are a nation with a high amount of black hair. They also have features that look very Near Eastern. Lots of Spaniards look similar to Lebanese people and other Semites.

The Basques are probably the only ethnic group in Spain that could be considered 100% European.

bicicleur
20-02-15, 13:29
I have explained all this in detail here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29290-Why-R1b-couldn-t-have-been-spread-around-Western-Europe-by-the-Bell-Beaker-people) and here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29565-Bell-Beakers-were-a-multicultural-phenomenon-amp-trade-network-not-an-ethnic-culture).



If El Argar really originated in La Bastida, and La Bastida were immigrants from Anatolia or Mesopotamia, then they wouldn't be Indo-European R1b. All I can say with confidence is that R1b-P312 (and subclades) was not widespread and perhaps not even present in Iberia before 1800 BCE, and that it wasn't until the first millennium BCE that R1b became a major lineage in the peninsula. I on't venture to speculate more without additional data about deep R1b subclades and their TMRCA in Iberia, or ancient Y-DNA from Bronze Age Iberia.

Troy fortifications were also in this 'Anatolian-Mesopotamian' style, so they may have been Indo-European or not.

I don't have the details. I know Spain has a lot of R1b, but I suspect this is divided over many subclades of R1b?
And yes, I think R1b-P312 was a later arrival in Iberia.

Chalcolithic was brougth by immigrants, just like BB, but neolithic megalithism persisted, so chalcolithic and BB didn't replace neolithic population.
Neither was the bronze age invasion massive, as I explained here above.
Phoenicians were traders, along the Spanish westcoast and Rio Tinto area.
There were some agricultural Phoenician colonisers in the Valencia area, but this was not a massive invasion either.
Strange, when Greek colonisers came to the Spanish westcoast a non-IE language was spoken there, but it was not Semitic/Phoenician either.
When Punicians came, Iberia was allready taken by Celtic tribes, many of which were Hannibals' allies.
600 BC La Tene Celts arrived, this may have been a massive invasion, but it was more centered on northwest Iberia
It seems there were a lot of invasions, but none massive.

Do you know more about horses in Iberia?

Alan
20-02-15, 23:38
Hmm, interesting; I have always heard from people in Europe tell me that the Spanish people of the South and the Portuguese people were not white. They always told me the Northern Spaniards were the white people; while the Andalusians were Arabs.

There is not really much phsyical difference between North and South Spain. At least not that much that the North could look total European and the South non European.

Maciamo
21-02-15, 09:01
I have expanded the OP to explain the origin of the non-Phoenician and non-Arabic admixture among Spaniards.

Maleth
21-02-15, 09:03
Hmm, interesting; I have always heard from people in Europe tell me that the Spanish people of the South and the Portuguese people were not white. They always told me the Northern Spaniards were the white people; while the Andalusians were Arabs.

I've interacted with Spaniards before and I can tell that there may be some sort of Arabic (non-white European) admixture. I've noticed they are a nation with a high amount of black hair. They also have features that look very Near Eastern. Lots of Spaniards look similar to Lebanese people and other Semites.

The Basques are probably the only ethnic group in Spain that could be considered 100% European.

I fervently and with great interest went to look up what 100% European mean and I stumbled onto this:-

......both Africans and Asians contributed to the settlement of Europe, which began about 40,000 years ago. It seems very reasonable to assume that both continents nearest to Europe contributed to its settlement, even if perhaps at different times and maybe repeatedly. It is reassuring that the analysis of other markers also consistently gives the same results in this case. Moreover, a specific evolutionary model tested, i.e., that Europe is formed by contributions from Asia and Africa, fits the distance matrix perfectly (6). In this simplified model, the migrations postulated to have populated Europe are estimated to have occurred at an early date (30,000 years ago), but it is impossible to distinguish, on the basis of these data, this model from that of several migrations at different times.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe

:thinking:

Melancon
21-02-15, 09:14
I did not mean Arabs in a literal sense. Just wanted to clear that up.

Sile
21-02-15, 09:24
@ maciano

Are you refrencing part of this latest paper below

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900

Melancon
21-02-15, 09:31
There is not really much phsyical difference between North and South Spain. At least not that much that the North could look total European and the South non European.I disagree; The Basques and Catalans look totally different from Andalusians. Basques and Catalans look more Northern European and look very similar; while Andalusians fit the Mediterranean phenotype. Basques look more like Celts.

have talked to Spanish people before; and it is evident to me that a few of them do have Semitic admixture in the South; more than people would realize. The Southern Portuguese have a lot of this admixture the most. Even Italians appear more European than Southern Portuguese or Southern Spanish people.

I disagree that haplogroup T is of Arabic origin though; I am guessing it has more to do with Greco-Roman colonization.

Some of Andalusian culture isn't even European in origin and is clearly, evidently North African. I've even gotten Spaniards to admit to me that they believe they have some Arabic ancestry. There are even old Mosques still in Andalusia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque%E2%80%93Cathedral_of_C%C3%B3rdoba


Why is everyone taking this personally? As if you have to be politically correct on this board....using terms like "white", "European", or "Arab" are not bad or derogatory. Even Albanians I would consider "white people" or "Europeans" genetically more so than Southern Iberians.

Melancon
21-02-15, 10:43
I fervently and with great interest went to look up what 100% European mean and I stumbled onto this:-

......both Africans and Asians contributed to the settlement of Europe, which began about 40,000 years ago. It seems very reasonable to assume that both continents nearest to Europe contributed to its settlement, even if perhaps at different times and maybe repeatedly. It is reassuring that the analysis of other markers also consistently gives the same results in this case. Moreover, a specific evolutionary model tested, i.e., that Europe is formed by contributions from Asia and Africa, fits the distance matrix perfectly (6). In this simplified model, the migrations postulated to have populated Europe are estimated to have occurred at an early date (30,000 years ago), but it is impossible to distinguish, on the basis of these data, this model from that of several migrations at different times.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe

:thinking:You are going with a mainstream definition of European based on a hypothesis that might not even be true. And notice; there is no language group in Europe that is not European in origin; other than Afro-Asiatic. Also, please notice that the The South Asians that speak Indo-European speak a European language group; because Indo-European developed in Eastern Europe.

It figures that you are from Malta, though. Where did the Maltese language come from? Obviously not Europe.

Maleth
21-02-15, 14:08
You are going with a mainstream definition of European based on a hypothesis that might not even be true. And notice; there is no language group in Europe that is not European in origin; other than Afro-Asiatic. Also, please notice that the The South Asians that speak Indo-European speak a European language group; because Indo-European developed in Eastern Europe.

hypothesis and scientific facts are not the same thing.



It figures that you are from Malta, though. Where did the Maltese language come from? Obviously not Europe.

This thread is not about Maltese Language (which has been discussed before) but you can always read more about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_language

If you find it interesting you can always start a new thread or visit the older ones

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30673-Photos-of-the-Maltese-people/page3?highlight=Maltese+language

page 3 post 15

Wilhelm
21-02-15, 16:08
Doesn't make much sense. The Phoenicians were a very small population, and they didn't even penetrate inland, they only setteld in a few coastal towns. Also genetically it doesn't make sense : the typical levantine R1b (~8% in modern Lebanese) is almost absent in much of Spain, not to mention E-V22 (virtually absent in most of Spain). In my opinion, what differentiates southern spaniards from basques, is a Tuscan-like admixture population (remember that ancient sample from neolithic Spain, he was autosomally plotting with Tuscans).

Wilhelm
21-02-15, 16:09
I disagree; The Basques and Catalans look totally different from Andalusians. Basques and Catalans look more Northern European and look very similar; while Andalusians fit the Mediterranean phenotype. Basques look more like Celts.

have talked to Spanish people before; and it is evident to me that a few of them do have Semitic admixture in the South; more than people would realize. The Southern Portuguese have a lot of this admixture the most. Even Italians appear more European than Southern Portuguese or Southern Spanish people.

I disagree that haplogroup T is of Arabic origin though; I am guessing it has more to do with Greco-Roman colonization.

Some of Andalusian culture isn't even European in origin and is clearly, evidently North African. I've even gotten Spaniards to admit to me that they believe they have some Arabic ancestry. There are even old Mosques still in Andalusia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque%E2%80%93Cathedral_of_C%C3%B3rdoba


Why is everyone taking this personally? As if you have to be politically correct on this board....using terms like "white", "European", or "Arab" are not bad or derogatory. Even Albanians I would consider "white people" or "Europeans" genetically more so than Southern Iberians.
Don't talk nonsense. Southern Spaniards look almost the same as the rest of Spaniards.

Wilhelm
21-02-15, 16:13
The remaining 80% of the Central/South Spanish genome is half West European Mesolithic Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) and half Early European Farmer (EEF). The Haak 2015 paper shows that Early Neolithic farmers from northern Spain (Catalonia) had between 0 and 10% of Mesolithic HG admixture (the rest being only EEF). This had increased to nearly 20% in all samples by the Middle Neolithic (so 80% EEF and 20% WHG). The assimilation of the WHG population undoubtedly continued during the Late Neolithic and Chalcolithic, probably reaching the parity observed in the Basque people in the 2nd millennium BCE.

.
This makes no sense. The EEF component itself is a mixture of WHG and Ancient Near-East farmer. Otherwise, the EEF wouldn't plot halfway between the WHG and the Near-East.

Maciamo
21-02-15, 16:15
Doesn't make much sense. The Phoenicians were a very small population, and they didn't even penetrate inland, they only setteld in a few coastal towns. Also genetically it doesn't make sense : the typical levantine R1b (~8% in modern Lebanese) is almost absent in much of Spain, not to mention E-V22 (virtually absent in most of Spain). In my opinion, what differentiates southern spaniards from basques, is a Tuscan-like admixture population (remember that ancient sample from neolithic Spain, he was autosomally plotting with Tuscans).

Doesn't matter if they didn't penetrate inland. Genes flow with intermarriages over time, and 3000 years is more than enough to diffuse genes over most of the peninsula.

Check the new major study of Catalan, Valencian and Balearic Y chromosomes (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30910-Catalan-ydna?p=450438&posted=1#post450438). Even in north-east Spain, which wasn't colonised at all by the Phoenicians, there is 1% of R1b-M343 (almost surely V88), 2.2% of Southwest Asian E1b1b (V22 + M123), 1% of J1-P58 and 1% of T. So even if I don't include the 7.3% of J2a and the 3.9% of G2a, which are both of Near Eastern origin too, there is already over 5% of clearly Southwest lineages. Imagine what it must be in Andalusia. Closer to 15%, I would think.

But let's not forget that the main Y-haplogroup of the Phoenicians was J2a, which could have accounted for a third of all lineages. It would be reasonable to assume that about half of the J2a in Spain is not Roman or Greek, but rather Phoenician or Arabic. Some G2a is also Phoenician or Arabic. It's not all Neolithic or Roman. So the proportion of Southwest Asian (Phoenician + Arabic) Y-DNA in north-east Spain is closer to 10%, while in Andalusia it could exceed 20%.

Wilhelm
21-02-15, 16:30
This thread is so full of inaccuracies. How come Arabs contribute 8% DNA when there has never been an arab population here to begin with ? The Arabs during the muslim occupation whrere only the elites (the Califas) and the armies, but never part of the population, it was never massive. Here is an extract from the book "The Preching of Islam; A history of the propagation of the MUslim Faith." , where it says :

"one point only in the evidence may be mentioned, derived from a letter written in 1311, in which it is stated that of the 200,000 Muhammadans then living in the city of Granada, not more than 500 were of Arab descent, all the rest being descendants of converted Spaniards."

Wilhelm
21-02-15, 16:35
Doesn't matter if they didn't penetrate inland. Genes flow with intermarriages over time, and 3000 years is more than enough to diffuse genes over most of the peninsula.

Check the new major study of Catalan, Valencian and Balearic Y chromosomes (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30910-Catalan-ydna?p=450438&posted=1#post450438). Even in north-east Spain, which wasn't colonised at all by the Phoenicians, there is 1% of R1b-M343 (almost surely V88), 2.2% of Southwest Asian E1b1b (V22 + M123), 1% of J1-P58 and 1% of T. So even if I don't include the 7.3% of J2a and the 3.9% of G2a, which are both of Near Eastern origin too, there is already over 5% of clearly Southwest lineages. Imagine what it must be in Andalusia. Closer to 15%, I would think.

But let's not forget that the main Y-haplogroup of the Phoenicians was J2a, which could have accounted for a third of all lineages. It would be reasonable to assume that about half of the J2a in Spain is not Roman or Greek, but rather Phoenician or Arabic. Some G2a is also Phoenician or Arabic. It's not all Neolithic or Roman. So the proportion of Southwest Asian (Phoenician + Arabic) Y-DNA in north-east Spain is closer to 10%, while in Andalusia it could exceed 20%.
Like I said, the study includes the Balearic Islands. Which is not exactly "North-East Spain".

Drac II
21-02-15, 17:58
I disagree; The Basques and Catalans look totally different from Andalusians. Basques and Catalans look more Northern European and look very similar; while Andalusians fit the Mediterranean phenotype. Basques look more like Celts.

have talked to Spanish people before; and it is evident to me that a few of them do have Semitic admixture in the South; more than people would realize. The Southern Portuguese have a lot of this admixture the most. Even Italians appear more European than Southern Portuguese or Southern Spanish people.

I disagree that haplogroup T is of Arabic origin though; I am guessing it has more to do with Greco-Roman colonization.

Some of Andalusian culture isn't even European in origin and is clearly, evidently North African. I've even gotten Spaniards to admit to me that they believe they have some Arabic ancestry. There are even old Mosques still in Andalusia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque%E2%80%93Cathedral_of_C%C3%B3rdoba


Why is everyone taking this personally? As if you have to be politically correct on this board....using terms like "white", "European", or "Arab" are not bad or derogatory. Even Albanians I would consider "white people" or "Europeans" genetically more so than Southern Iberians.

Strange that you should say that, since the more typically Near Eastern features, like aquiline facial profiles, are actually more common among the strongly Dinaricized Italians and southern Balkans than the predominantly West-Mediterranean and very little Dinaric-influenced southern Spaniards/Portuguese. Get better acquainted with anthropology.

Regarding mosques: you can find old mosques in Greece and all over the Balkans:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_monuments_in_Kosovo#.28Ahmed.29_Al.E2.80.9 3Aga_Mosque_.281268.29


Your point is? You can also find ancient temples in Italy devoted to Syrian and Egyptian gods:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Isis_(Pompeii)

Again, your point is?

Adopting the religion of other peoples does not make any inferences about their actual ethnic origins. Most Muslims in Iberia were in fact just native converts to that religion.

Drac II
21-02-15, 18:10
This thread is so full of inaccuracies. How come Arabs contribute 8% DNA when there has never been an arab population here to begin with ? The Arabs during the muslim occupation whrere only the elites (the Califas) and the armies, but never part of the population, it was never massive. Here is an extract from the book "The Preching of Islam; A history of the propagation of the MUslim Faith." , where it says :

"one point only in the evidence may be mentioned, derived from a letter written in 1311, in which it is stated that of the 200,000 Muhammadans then living in the city of Granada, not more than 500 were of Arab descent, all the rest being descendants of converted Spaniards."

8% is actually not a really big contribution, even if we accept the OP's speculations leading to such a figure based on only this study (which does not mean is necessarily supported by other studies, like Hellenthal et al. 2014, for example, which found practically no Middle Eastern input in Spain.) It still would show that the Arabs were only a small minority of the population, thus confirming the established historical record that you are referring to.

John Doe
21-02-15, 18:30
8% is actually not a really big contribution, even if we accept the OP's speculations leading to such a figure based on only this study (which does not mean is necessarily supported by other studies, like Hellenthal et al. 2014, for example, which found practically no Middle Eastern input in Spain.) It still would show that the Arabs were only a small minority of the population, thus confirming the established historical record that you are referring to.

Perhaps like the Magyars were to most Hungarians? A ruling minority that contributed linguistically and culturally but not genetically?

Maciamo
21-02-15, 18:33
I forgot to mention that the Jews could also have brought the same admixture and haplogroups as the Phoenicians and the Arabs.

Drac II
21-02-15, 18:42
I haven't had the time to go over this study, so a couple of pertinent questions and observations regarding the subject of the thread for those who have already examined the paper:

1- Where did the samples labelled "Spanish" come from? The admixture table separates it from both Basques and North-Spanish samples, so I have to assume these came from other areas of Spain, but exactly where?

2- The OP says "pink" represents "East African" but from what I can see it looks like Amerindian (it is highest among American populations), so I am assuming that the one that looks more like "flesh" color is the one that is meant for "East Africa"

3- The same three colors that the OP is trying to use to estimate "Arab", "Jewish" and/or "Phoenician" contributions to southern Spain show up at varying frequencies in other places in Europe (Italy, Greece, Balkans) Does that mean we can go around speculating about the genetic contributions of Etruscan/Roman-era Middle Eastern immigrants and slaves as well as later Muslim-era military invaders in these other areas of Europe based on the results of the same study, or will this only be arbitrarily applied to the southern Spanish?

Drac II
21-02-15, 18:43
Perhaps like the Magyars were to most Hungarians? A ruling minority that contributed linguistically and culturally but not genetically?

Yes, correct, or the Ottoman Turks in the Balkans.

Wilhelm
21-02-15, 18:46
I forgot to mention that the Jews could also have brought the same admixture and haplogroups as the Phoenicians and the Arabs.
E-M34 (most common subclade of E1b1b for Jews) is extremely low in Spain.

John Doe
21-02-15, 18:49
E-M34 (most common subclade of E1b1b for Jews) is extremely low in Spain.
While I'm E1b1b1 and therefore most likely E-M34 (not confirmed as of yet though) I'm pretty sure most Ashkenazi/Sephardi Jews belong to J2. How common is that in Spain? (Obviously if it's common it may have just been brought in the Bronze age).

Wilhelm
21-02-15, 18:55
Perhaps like the Magyars were to most Hungarians? A ruling minority that contributed linguistically and culturally but not genetically?
That's correct.


While I'm E1b1b1 and therefore most likely E-M34 (not confirmed as of yet though) I'm pretty sure most Ashkenazi/Sephardi Jews belong to J2. How common is that in Spain? (Obviously if it's common it may have just been brought in the Bronze age).
J2 is about 8-10% in Spain, which is pretty low for a South-European/Mediterranean country.

Wilhelm
21-02-15, 19:04
Since the Caucaso-Gedrosian was probably brought to Spain mostly by Phoenicians (being nearly absent from Algerian, Mozabite and BedouinB), it can be inferred that the Phoenicians contributed approximately 12% of the DNA in an average South Spanish genome (4% for each of the three admixtures). The other 6% of the Bedouin-like admixture would be medieval Arabic in origin. Using the proportions of modern Saudi Arabs as a proxy, we can estimate that the Bedouin-like admixture made up 75% of medieval Arabs' genomes. That would give a total of about 8% of Arabic DNA in a South Spanish genome today.
.
The Caucasus-Gedrosia component that you talk about , has nothing to do with Phoenicians or Arabs, but with Yamnaya. If you look at the dark-blue component, it peaks in Yamanya, but they also have around 25% of this Caucasus-Gedrosia component. This component is in fact also found all around Europe (in fact Spain has lower levels than Hungary, France, or Croatia).

In fact when you look at K=19, the ratio Dark-Blue/Turquoise is about 50%/50% for Yamnayans, and this same ratio is mantained in Spain and Basque country, and in most of Europe. So, yes Basques do have it also, it's just that at K=20 it disappears in them. And the violet "Bedouin component" is also present in other S.European countries, such Greeks, Tuscans, Sardinians, etc.

You are just making up some weird theories.

John Doe
21-02-15, 19:09
J2 is about 8-10% in Spain, which is pretty low for a South-European/Mediterranean country.

I suppose it is, compared to where it is predominant (in Europe), Greece and southern Italy.

Sile
21-02-15, 20:00
From Arabia to Iberia: A Y chromosome prospective

María Regueiro (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#)a (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#af0005), 1 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#fn0005),
Ralph Garcia-Bertrand (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#)b (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#af0010), , 1 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#fn0005), ,
Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#)c (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#af0015),
Joseph Álvarez (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#)a (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#af0005),
Rene J. Herrera (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#)a (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#af0005)



a Department of Molecular and Human Genetics, College of Medicine, FL International University, Miami FL33199, USA
b Biology Department, Colorado College, Colorado Springs, CO 80903, USA
c Laboratoire de Genetique, Immunologie at Pathologies Humaines, Faculte des Sciences de Tunis,Campus Universitaire El Manar II, Universite el Manar, Tunis, Tunisia

Received 5 January 2015, Revised 8 February 2015, Accepted 15 February 2015, Available online 17 February 2015



Highlights•The M81 and M183 mutations in Spain represent signatures of Berber gene flow.
•The P58 mutation and its derivatives represent genetic signals from Arabian.
•Our data are compatible with multiple migrations from Northwest Africa including the Islamic occupation.
•Frequencies of both Arabic and Berber markers are higher at the extreme Northwest of Iberian compared to the South of Spain.
•Relocation of converts and/or pre-Islamic dispersals to North Iberia may explain the higher frequencies compared to South Iberia.



AbstractAt different times during recent human evolution, northern Africa has served as a conduit for migrations from the Arabian Peninsula. Although previous researchers have investigated the possibility of the Strait of Gibraltar as a conduit of migration from North Africa to Iberia, we now revisit this issue and theorize that although the Strait of Gibraltar, at the west end of this corridor, has acted as a barrier for human dispersal into Southwest Europe, it has not provided an absolute seal to gene flow. To test this hypothesis, here we use the spatial frequency distributions, STR diversity and expansion time estimates of Y chromosome haplogroups J1-P58 and E-M81 to investigate the genetic imprints left by the Arabian and Berber expansions into the Iberian Peninsula, respectively. The data generated indicate that Arabian and Berber genetic markers are detected in Iberia. We present evidence that suggest that Iberia has received gene flow from Northwest Africa during and prior to the Islamic colonization of 711 A.D. It is interesting that the highest frequencies of Arabia and Berber markers are not found in southern Spain, where Islam remained the longest and was culturally most influential, but in Northwest Iberia, specifically Galicia. We propose that Moriscos’ relocations to the north during the Reconquista, the migration of cryptic Muslims seeking refuge in a more lenient society and/or more geographic extensive pre-Islamic incursions may explain the higher frequencies and older time estimates of mutations in the north of the Peninsula. These scenarios are congruent with the higher diversities of some diagnostic makers observed in Northwest Iberia.

Wilhelm
21-02-15, 20:24
From Arabia to Iberia: A Y chromosome prospective



María Regueiro (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#)a (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#af0005), 1 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#fn0005),
Ralph Garcia-Bertrand (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#)b (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#af0010), , 1 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#fn0005), ,
Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#)c (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#af0015),
Joseph Álvarez (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#)a (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#af0005),
Rene J. Herrera (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#)a (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#af0005)



a Department of Molecular and Human Genetics, College of Medicine, FL International University, Miami FL33199, USA
b Biology Department, Colorado College, Colorado Springs, CO 80903, USA
c Laboratoire de Genetique, Immunologie at Pathologies Humaines, Faculte des Sciences de Tunis,Campus Universitaire El Manar II, Universite el Manar, Tunis, Tunisia

Received 5 January 2015, Revised 8 February 2015, Accepted 15 February 2015, Available online 17 February 2015



Highlights

•The M81 and M183 mutations in Spain represent signatures of Berber gene flow.
•The P58 mutation and its derivatives represent genetic signals from Arabian.
•Our data are compatible with multiple migrations from Northwest Africa including the Islamic occupation.
•Frequencies of both Arabic and Berber markers are higher at the extreme Northwest of Iberian compared to the South of Spain.
•Relocation of converts and/or pre-Islamic dispersals to North Iberia may explain the higher frequencies compared to South Iberia.



Abstract

At different times during recent human evolution, northern Africa has served as a conduit for migrations from the Arabian Peninsula. Although previous researchers have investigated the possibility of the Strait of Gibraltar as a conduit of migration from North Africa to Iberia, we now revisit this issue and theorize that although the Strait of Gibraltar, at the west end of this corridor, has acted as a barrier for human dispersal into Southwest Europe, it has not provided an absolute seal to gene flow. To test this hypothesis, here we use the spatial frequency distributions, STR diversity and expansion time estimates of Y chromosome haplogroups J1-P58 and E-M81 to investigate the genetic imprints left by the Arabian and Berber expansions into the Iberian Peninsula, respectively. The data generated indicate that Arabian and Berber genetic markers are detected in Iberia. We present evidence that suggest that Iberia has received gene flow from Northwest Africa during and prior to the Islamic colonization of 711 A.D. It is interesting that the highest frequencies of Arabia and Berber markers are not found in southern Spain, where Islam remained the longest and was culturally most influential, but in Northwest Iberia, specifically Galicia. We propose that Moriscos’ relocations to the north during the Reconquista, the migration of cryptic Muslims seeking refuge in a more lenient society and/or more geographic extensive pre-Islamic incursions may explain the higher frequencies and older time estimates of mutations in the north of the Peninsula. These scenarios are congruent with the higher diversities of some diagnostic makers observed in Northwest Iberia.
The presence of E-M81 is certainly pre-islamic. Because the frequencies do not correlate with the islamic historical events taking place in Iberia. The morisco theory in Galicia is ridiculous, and makes no historical sense, not only because morsicos were natives converted to Islam living in Christian territory, but because the presence of moriscos in Galicia was very small (compared to other places like Aragón or Valencia, were they made a large percent of the population) , so that cannot account for the 5-6% presence of E-M81 in Galicia. There is also high percentage in Cantabria and other non-southern areas. Also, there fact you find some E-M81 in other parts of Europe, so everything points to a pre-islamic incoming from Northern-Africa. In France, there are areas with 4-5% of E-M81 also (Auvergne, Ile-de-France).

Drac II
21-02-15, 20:31
From Arabia to Iberia: A Y chromosome prospective



María Regueiro (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#)a (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#af0005), 1 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#fn0005),
Ralph Garcia-Bertrand (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#)b (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#af0010), , 1 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#fn0005), ,
Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#)c (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#af0015),
Joseph Álvarez (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#)a (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#af0005),
Rene J. Herrera (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#)a (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111915001900#af0005)



a Department of Molecular and Human Genetics, College of Medicine, FL International University, Miami FL33199, USA
b Biology Department, Colorado College, Colorado Springs, CO 80903, USA
c Laboratoire de Genetique, Immunologie at Pathologies Humaines, Faculte des Sciences de Tunis,Campus Universitaire El Manar II, Universite el Manar, Tunis, Tunisia

Received 5 January 2015, Revised 8 February 2015, Accepted 15 February 2015, Available online 17 February 2015



Highlights

•The M81 and M183 mutations in Spain represent signatures of Berber gene flow.
•The P58 mutation and its derivatives represent genetic signals from Arabian.
•Our data are compatible with multiple migrations from Northwest Africa including the Islamic occupation.
•Frequencies of both Arabic and Berber markers are higher at the extreme Northwest of Iberian compared to the South of Spain.
•Relocation of converts and/or pre-Islamic dispersals to North Iberia may explain the higher frequencies compared to South Iberia.



Abstract

At different times during recent human evolution, northern Africa has served as a conduit for migrations from the Arabian Peninsula. Although previous researchers have investigated the possibility of the Strait of Gibraltar as a conduit of migration from North Africa to Iberia, we now revisit this issue and theorize that although the Strait of Gibraltar, at the west end of this corridor, has acted as a barrier for human dispersal into Southwest Europe, it has not provided an absolute seal to gene flow. To test this hypothesis, here we use the spatial frequency distributions, STR diversity and expansion time estimates of Y chromosome haplogroups J1-P58 and E-M81 to investigate the genetic imprints left by the Arabian and Berber expansions into the Iberian Peninsula, respectively. The data generated indicate that Arabian and Berber genetic markers are detected in Iberia. We present evidence that suggest that Iberia has received gene flow from Northwest Africa during and prior to the Islamic colonization of 711 A.D. It is interesting that the highest frequencies of Arabia and Berber markers are not found in southern Spain, where Islam remained the longest and was culturally most influential, but in Northwest Iberia, specifically Galicia. We propose that Moriscos’ relocations to the north during the Reconquista, the migration of cryptic Muslims seeking refuge in a more lenient society and/or more geographic extensive pre-Islamic incursions may explain the higher frequencies and older time estimates of mutations in the north of the Peninsula. These scenarios are congruent with the higher diversities of some diagnostic makers observed in Northwest Iberia.

Key part here being "Relocation of converts and/or pre-Islamic dispersals to North Iberia may explain the higher frequencies compared to South Iberia." Again, nothing new. Papers based on haplogroups are speculative by force. We are dealing with genetic markers which are thousands of years old and predate historical events. There is no way of knowing for sure when they were introduced in any given area.

Melancon
22-02-15, 01:13
Strange that you should say that, since the more typically Near Eastern features, like aquiline facial profiles, are actually more common among the strongly Dinaricized Italians and southern Balkans than the predominantly West-Mediterranean and very little Dinaric-influenced southern Spaniards/Portuguese. Get better acquainted with anthropology.

Regarding mosques: you can find old mosques in Greece and all over the Balkans:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_monuments_in_Kosovo#.28Ahmed.29_Al.E2.80.9 3Aga_Mosque_.281268.29


Your point is? You can also find ancient temples in Italy devoted to Syrian and Egyptian gods:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Isis_(Pompeii)

Again, your point is?

Adopting the religion of other peoples does not make any inferences about their actual ethnic origins. Most Muslims in Iberia were in fact just native converts to that religion.I don't need someone to tell me whether or not Southern Spaniards and Portuguese have Semitic admixture; I KNOW this to be true. ;)

And my whole point being, is that Afro-Asiatic is spoken in Maltese; an island of Europe. How did it get there; if it is not European language in origin? Obviously through Near Eastern conquest...just like the Phoenician and Moorish conquests.


7090

E-M123 is the most common Y-DNA haplogroup in Jewish people. It seems heavily concentrated in the region of Extremadura; which may suggest Sephardic Jewish assimilation.

7091

And Mtdna U6 is obviously and evidently Sephardic Jewish in origin as well. All the people I met with this mtdna have Sephardic Jewish ancestry.

The Basque people look more like Celts (Irish, Scottish, Breton French, Western French) because they basically are. They are Celtiberians that are homogeneous but speak a non-IE language. They look nothing like Andalusians; and have a high percentage of Blondism in their population. While in Andalusia you will find people with mostly dark black hair; and usually straight.

Wilhelm
22-02-15, 01:22
I don't need someone to tell me whether or not Southern Spaniards and Portuguese have Semitic admixture; I KNOW this to be true. ;)

And my whole point being, is that Afro-Asiatic is spoken in Maltese; an island of Europe. How did it get there; if it is not European language in origin? Obviously through Near Eastern conquest...just like the Phoenician and Moorish conquests.


7090

E-M123 is the most common Y-DNA haplogroup in Jewish people. It seems heavily concentrated in the region of Extremadura; which may suggest Sephardic Jewish assimilation.

7091

And Mtdna U6 is obviously and evidently Sephardic Jewish in origin as well. All the people I met with this mtdna have Sephardic Jewish ancestry.

The Basque people look more like Celts (Irish, Scottish, Breton French, Western French) because they basically are. They are Celtiberians that are homogeneous but speak a non-IE language. They look nothing like Andalusians; and have a high percentage of Blondism in their population. While in Andalusia you will find people with mostly dark black hair; and usually straight.
You have no idea what your talking about. The mtDNA U6 is a specific north-african subclade, nothing to do with Jews.

Melancon
22-02-15, 01:34
You have no idea what your talking about. The mtDNA U6 is a specific north-african subclade, nothing to do with Jews.No idea what I'm talking about? I just told you that all people I met with U6 have Sephardic Jewish heritage.

Either way; it still proves that I am correct that U6 isn't European in origin. You have still admitted that it is North African in origin; which proves my point that Iberians have a Near Eastern/North African influence..

Here is a link:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/dominicansephardim/default.aspx?section=results

"Haplogroup U6 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_U_(mtDNA)#Haplogroup_U6)

Haplogroup U6 can be considered to be the mt-DNA equivalent of Y-DNA haplogroup E1B1B in that it is of North African origins and its distribution matches the Afro Asiatic linguistic expansion. The U6 research project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/U6mtdna/default.aspx?section=results) has discovered what it believes to be a Sephardic Cluster in haplogroup U6A7A1B characterized by mutation 150T. U6 can be found in small percentages among Sephardic Jews and even Ashkenazic Jews. Similar to haplogroup E1B1B, U6's presence among Jews may date back to ancient times when the founding members of the Israelite tribes performed conversions on local Canaanite women, to allow them marry tribal members prior to their descent to Egypt. Another possibility is that this lineage joined the ancient Israelites along with the "mixed multitude" that came out of Egypt with the Israelites, as described in the Bible. It is also possible that Berber conversions to Judaism during the Muslim occupation of Spain introduced this lineage to the Sephardic gene pool. This haplogroup has been found in the Sephardic Jewish communities of the former Ottoman Empire. A member of this project with a tradition of Jewish ancestry on his/her maternal line, and is a member of this haplogroup, can be considered to be likely of Jewish descent."

Sile
22-02-15, 01:36
Key part here being "Relocation of converts and/or pre-Islamic dispersals to North Iberia may explain the higher frequencies compared to South Iberia." Again, nothing new. Papers based on haplogroups are speculative by force. We are dealing with genetic markers which are thousands of years old and predate historical events. There is no way of knowing for sure when they were introduced in any given area.

correct.....the arabian to iberia was pre arabs

Sile
22-02-15, 01:40
I don't need someone to tell me whether or not Southern Spaniards and Portuguese have Semitic admixture; I KNOW this to be true. ;)

And my whole point being, is that Afro-Asiatic is spoken in Maltese; an island of Europe. How did it get there; if it is not European language in origin? Obviously through Near Eastern conquest...just like the Phoenician and Moorish conquests.


7090

E-M123 is the most common Y-DNA haplogroup in Jewish people. It seems heavily concentrated in the region of Extremadura; which may suggest Sephardic Jewish assimilation.

7091

And Mtdna U6 is obviously and evidently Sephardic Jewish in origin as well. All the people I met with this mtdna have Sephardic Jewish ancestry.

The Basque people look more like Celts (Irish, Scottish, Breton French, Western French) because they basically are. They are Celtiberians that are homogeneous but speak a non-IE language. They look nothing like Andalusians; and have a high percentage of Blondism in their population. While in Andalusia you will find people with mostly dark black hair; and usually straight.

i do not think berbers where semetic

the moors seems a mix of Northwest indigenous africans and a mix of saharan "west african " coastal people. it seems the arabic invasion of iberia after the fall of the Roman empire and the end of barbaric invasions of africa by the vandals , might have lighten the pigmentation of the indigenous area in question

Melancon
22-02-15, 02:25
I really meant Near Eastern/North African; as a whole. Not Semitic. ​That is only part of what I am saying. Correction.

Drac II
22-02-15, 03:25
correct.....the arabian to iberia was pre arabs

And the "Berber" itself might as well be too.

Drac II
22-02-15, 03:39
I don't need someone to tell me whether or not Southern Spaniards and Portuguese have Semitic admixture; I KNOW this to be true. ;)

And my whole point being, is that Afro-Asiatic is spoken in Maltese; an island of Europe. How did it get there; if it is not European language in origin? Obviously through Near Eastern conquest...just like the Phoenician and Moorish conquests.


7090

E-M123 is the most common Y-DNA haplogroup in Jewish people. It seems heavily concentrated in the region of Extremadura; which may suggest Sephardic Jewish assimilation.

7091

And Mtdna U6 is obviously and evidently Sephardic Jewish in origin as well. All the people I met with this mtdna have Sephardic Jewish ancestry.

The Basque people look more like Celts (Irish, Scottish, Breton French, Western French) because they basically are. They are Celtiberians that are homogeneous but speak a non-IE language. They look nothing like Andalusians; and have a high percentage of Blondism in their population. While in Andalusia you will find people with mostly dark black hair; and usually straight.

Autosomal studies on the genetics of Jews do not show any particular relationship between Spaniards and any Jews, including Sephardics:

http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100603/full/news.2010.277.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/09/science/ashkenazi-origins-may-be-with-european-women-study-finds.html?_r=0

Basques are not, and never were, "Celts". Basques would be more like the pre-Celtic Iberians or the Aquitanians of France. The Celtic-influenced peoples of Spain would be from these regions (light blue):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Ethnographic_Iberia_200_BCE.PNG

So mostly Galicians, Asturians, Cantabrians and Castilian-Leonese.

The reason why Brits & Irish have some anthropological and genetic connections to Spaniards and French is probably more due to the fact that the British Isles also had a pre-Celtic population, who were similar to the Iberians and Aquitanians.

mtDNA U6 has very disputed origins (either Middle Eastern or North African), and in either case it's way older than any "Jews". We are talking about a prehistoric marker here, nothing remotely "recent". Plus it has been found even as far north as the British Isles.

About the "Afro-Asiatic" language thing: I still fail to see your point, as there was no "Afro-Asiatic" language spoken by any native inhabitants of Iberia. The pre-Celtic, pre-Roman populations spoke languages like Iberian and Basque, which have no relationship to either Indo-European or Semitic languages. Modern Iberians speak Indo-European languages derived from Latin due to the Roman empire imposing its language on the native populations, and the only pre-Indo-European language that has survived anywhere in Europe is Basque.

Melancon
22-02-15, 04:04
Autosomal studies on the genetics of Jews do not show any particular relationship between Spaniards and any Jews, including Sephardics:

http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100603/full/news.2010.277.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/09/science/ashkenazi-origins-may-be-with-european-women-study-finds.html?_r=0

Basques are not, and never were, "Celts". Basques would be more like the pre-Celtic Iberians or the Aquitanians of France. The Celtic-influenced peoples of Spain would be from these regions (light blue)

Nope. All people in Europe are mixed with pre-Indo-European and indigenous peoples; even Germanic people. There are traces of non Indo-European words in Germanic dialects. The Basques are merely Celtiberians that mixed with indigenous women; more so than other Spaniards. Spaniards are mixed with Visigoth Germanic, Roman and even something like Alan. (Ossetian) etc. Meaning that they take in heritage from all kinds of peoples. (heterogeneous) If you study the Basque people; you will find that they may have recently; what is called a "Population bottleneck". Which means the Basques descended from a small, relatively isolated population.

Even though Basques are mixed with Celtiberian and indigenous peoples; they are also homogeneous, meaning they share relatives a few generations back. While the rest of the Iberians tend to be heterogeneous. (Descending from all kinds of peoples.) It may seem contradictory; but it isn't.

Anthropology is a science that requires deep-thinking and logic that contains extreme concentration; like Math.

In fact; I can prove this with the Celtiberian Y-DNA that is most prominent in Basque people; but also has a small residual in Southwest France; where the Aquitanians were believed to have thrived:

7092

Drac II
22-02-15, 04:20
Nope. All people in Europe are mixed with pre-Indo-European and indigenous peoples; even Germanic people. There are traces of non Indo-European words in Germanic dialects. The Basques are merely Celtiberians that mixed with indigenous women; more so than other Spaniards. Spaniards are mixed with Visigoth Germanic, Roman and even something like Alan. (Ossetian) etc. Meaning that they take in heritage from all kinds of peoples. (heterogeneous) If you study the Basque people; you will find that they may have recently; what is called a "Population bottleneck". Which means the Basques descended from a small, relatively isolated population.

Even though Basques are mixed with Celtiberian and indigenous peoples; they are also homogeneous, meaning they share relatives a few generations back. While the rest of the Iberians tend to be heterogeneous. (Descending from all kinds of peoples.) It may seem contradictory; but it isn't.

Anthropology is a science that requires deep-thinking and logic that contains extreme concentration; like Math.

In fact; I can prove this with the Celtiberian Y-DNA that is most prominent in Basque people; but also has a small residual in Southwest France; where the Aquitanians were believed to have thrived:

7092

I have never seen any historians, linguists or ethnologists suggest that Basques had any particularly strong Celtic influence. Basques are widely regarded as the only mostly pre-Indo-European people left in Europe (in fact they speak the only surviving pre-Indo-European language, none other in Europe survived Romanization), all others, as you say, have different degrees of Indo-European influence.

That Y-DNA marker seems more common in the non-Celtic areas of both France and Iberia, so it is very likely not "Celtiberian". Eupedia itself calls it the "Gascon & Iberian" branch, in fact.

Melancon
22-02-15, 04:40
I have never seen any historians, linguists or ethnologists suggest that Basques had any particularly strong Celtic influence. Basques are widely regarded as the only mostly pre-Indo-European people left in Europe (in fact they speak the only surviving pre-Indo-European language, none other in Europe survived Romanization), all others, as you say, have different degrees of Indo-European influence.That is because you are misinformed...the R1b is Celtiberian in origin and arrived during the Bronze Age. With the invasion of Hallstatt Celts into Iberia.

See Maciamo's theory, How did the Basques become R1b?: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28386-How-did-the-Basques-become-R1b

You can also notice a small I2 residual around the Basque country; which suggests a Neolithic population once spoke Basque / Aquitanian, but the majority of the original I2 men were slaughtered by R1b invaders:

7093

Melancon
22-02-15, 05:36
hypothesis and scientific facts are not the same thing.




This thread is not about Maltese Language (which has been discussed before) but you can always read more about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_language

If you find it interesting you can always start a new thread or visit the older ones

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30673-Photos-of-the-Maltese-people/page3?highlight=Maltese+language

page 3 post 15hypothesis and scientific facts are not the same thing. I know they aren't. Who said they were? You did. In fact, your country is the only country in Europe that has a non-European language; meaning it did not develop in Europe. Afro-Asiatic. You refer to an article from Wikipedia that has no scientific background and is only a hypothesis. You are basically calling me out for the same acts that you are: Contradicting yourself and being a hypocrite. This is called Baseless accusation and self-projection.

Don't think I am setting you up, attacking or arguing against you Maleth. I am just stating a fact.

Melancon
22-02-15, 05:53
I forgot to mention that the Jews could also have brought the same admixture and haplogroups as the Phoenicians and the Arabs.Well, essentially; they were all Afro-Asiatic speaking peoples with origins in the Levant and Near East. So am I not completely wrong here? If you are talking about the same percentages, then yes I may be correct.

Basques look nothing like Andalusians in terms of phenotype; and Basques are more Northern European while Andalusians would fit Mediterranean. And it is in my personal opinion; from experience; that some Andalusian Spaniards look very similar to Near Easterners like the Lebanese and Syrians; and may have picked up some of those genetics.

I was a bit taken aback by some of the people posting here, arguing against and claiming that they were in complete discordance in their analogies with mine. I was expecting the opposite. Lots of Southern Iberians have non-European ancestry; it's no secret to me.

Melancon
22-02-15, 06:12
The presence of E-M81 is certainly pre-islamic. Because the frequencies do not correlate with the islamic historical events taking place in Iberia. The morisco theory in Galicia is ridiculous, and makes no historical sense, not only because morsicos were natives converted to Islam living in Christian territory, but because the presence of moriscos in Galicia was very small (compared to other places like Aragón or Valencia, were they made a large percent of the population) , so that cannot account for the 5-6% presence of E-M81 in Galicia. There is also high percentage in Cantabria and other non-southern areas. Also, there fact you find some E-M81 in other parts of Europe, so everything points to a pre-islamic incoming from Northern-Africa. In France, there are areas with 4-5% of E-M81 also (Auvergne, Ile-de-France).This subclade could have come from a migration of ancient peoples originating from North Africa who arrived in the peninsula before the Mesolithic; centuries longer than the Phoenicians and even the Moors.

I don't believe E-M81 is European; and I cannot find any other explanation. Unless it was an ancient European Y-DNA such as C6 or pre-I that was replaced by Neolithic or Bronze Age Y-DNA. But someone would have to prove that.

Sile
22-02-15, 06:22
This subclade could have come from a migration of ancient peoples originating from North Africa who arrived in the peninsula before the Mesolithic; centuries longer than the Phoenicians and even the Moors.

I don't believe E-M81 is European; and I cannot find any other explanation. Unless it was an ancient European Y-DNA such as C6 or pre-I that was replaced by Neolithic or Bronze Age Y-DNA. But someone would have to prove that.

you can clearly see who are the phoenicians by seeing this link .............look at the lebanese

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/SopYW19qzQI/AAAAAAAAB9U/6cdlguuye-k/s1600-h/FigureS1.jpg

Melancon
22-02-15, 06:39
you can clearly see who are the phoenicians by seeing this link .............look at the lebanese

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/SopYW19qzQI/AAAAAAAAB9U/6cdlguuye-k/s1600-h/FigureS1.jpg

Seems the Lebanese are very high in abundance of J2; which interestingly seems to peak in Southern Iberia. And also seems to be extremely high along the coastlines of North Africa:

7094

Wonder if these subclade(s) of J2 are Phoenician in origin. The Phoenicians are believed to be relative to the modern Lebanese; and possibly the Syrians.

Haplogroup J1 also seems to have a similar distribution:

7095

It seems to me like some of the people here are in-denial of Spain and Portugal's obvious Near Eastern heritage. Interestingly; the distribution of Y-DNA J1 seems kind of similar to that of mtdna U6.

Maleth
22-02-15, 09:05
hypothesis and scientific facts are not the same thing. I know they aren't. Who said they were? You did. In fact,

Facts? :)... if you call Cavalli-Sforza's scientific work as I quoted you a hypothesis(! what next?) and its going with a mainstream definition of European based on a hypothesis that might not even be true, then I am not sure if anyone can take anything you say seriously and worth of any debate. No offense please.

Melancon
22-02-15, 09:20
Facts? :)... if you call Cavalli-Sforza's scientific work as I quoted you a hypothesis(! what next?) and its going with a mainstream definition of European based on a hypothesis that might not even be true, then I am not sure if anyone can take anything you say seriously and worth of any debate. No offense please. If he is the source of the DNA acquisition project HGDP then I can agree that he is inaccurate. lmao.

Don't get too cocky just yet.

I've noticed that HGDP have the least accurate and most erroneous DNA sampling; along with FTDNA geneticist Doron Behar.

Maleth
22-02-15, 09:48
Seems the Lebanese are very high in abundance of J2; which interestingly seems to peak in Southern Iberia. And also seems to be extremely high along the coastlines of North Africa:

7094

Wonder if these subclade(s) of J2 are Phoenician in origin. The Phoenicians are believed to be relative to the modern Lebanese; and possibly the Syrians.

J2 has been in the area much prior to when Phoenicia (Who gave Europe its name) or classical Greece were created. Yes there are high concentrations in the regions (Asian Med / East and West Med and beyond and lesser in North African Med) but labeling J2 Phoenician is not correct (since many other geographical regions have it) as much as labeling R1b is Basque (Since many other geographical regions have it). Testing further downstream can give better routes and migration and possibilities of arrival in a particular region.

Melancon
22-02-15, 09:55
J2 has been in the area much prior to when Phoenicia (Who gave Europe its name) or classical Greece were created. Yes there are high concentrations in the regions (Asian Med / East and West Med and beyond and lesser in North African Med) but labeling J2 Phoenician is not correct (since many other geographical regions have it) as much as labeling R1b is Basque (Since many other geographical regions have it). Testing further downstream can give better routes and migration and possibilities of arrival in a particular region.Can you give me a link with evidence to this claim? It sounds uninformed...I never labeled J2 as Phoenician. As some subclades can also exist in Balkanic and Caucasian people. But I would not be surprised if the J2 subclade(s) that are there; have a Phoenician origin.

Maleth
22-02-15, 15:45
Can you give me a link with evidence to this claim? It sounds uninformed...I never labeled J2 as Phoenician. As some subclades can also exist in Balkanic and Caucasian people. But I would not be surprised if the J2 subclade(s) that are there; have a Phoenician origin.

I will not be either, and of course it is even documented that like Greeks, Phoenicians also settled in some areas away from their original homelands namely Tyre and Sidon, even though they are much better known to trade rather then colonise. Cartage is maybe the best documented Phoenician settlement to the point that unlike their forefathers they became more warlike http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal and posed one of the biggest threats to the Roman expansion. But look at J2 in that area. Its hardly any genetic evidence of any Phoenician settlement if one has to use the J2 ruler as a measuring stick.

You can visit and read what other posters had to say on this subject and maybe revive some of them if you find it interesting. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/forums/232-J2 Enjoy

Aberdeen
22-02-15, 17:03
That is because you are misinformed...the R1b is Celtiberian in origin and arrived during the Bronze Age. With the invasion of Hallstatt Celts into Iberia.

See Maciamo's theory, How did the Basques become R1b?: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28386-How-did-the-Basques-become-R1b

You can also notice a small I2 residual around the Basque country; which suggests a Neolithic population once spoke Basque / Aquitanian, but the majority of the original I2 men were slaughtered by R1b invaders:

7093

It's all very well to have theories, but I prefer facts when I can get them. And we do not yet have one single example of Iberian BB Y DNA. We do have three BB Y DNA samples from Germany that are all R1b and one is specifically P312, which is the immediate precursor to DF27, the most common form of R1b among modern Iberians. So it's beginning to look as if Iberian BB folk could have been at least partly R1b.

Drac II
22-02-15, 18:14
Seems the Lebanese are very high in abundance of J2; which interestingly seems to peak in Southern Iberia. And also seems to be extremely high along the coastlines of North Africa:

7094

Wonder if these subclade(s) of J2 are Phoenician in origin. The Phoenicians are believed to be relative to the modern Lebanese; and possibly the Syrians.

Haplogroup J1 also seems to have a similar distribution:

7095

It seems to me like some of the people here are in-denial of Spain and Portugal's obvious Near Eastern heritage. Interestingly; the distribution of Y-DNA J1 seems kind of similar to that of mtdna U6.

As you can see from those "maps", these markers are found all over southern Europe, many times in fact at higher levels than in southern Spain. Should we attribute it all to "Phoenicians", "Jews" and other Middle Easterners in those places as well, or do we arbitrarily only reserve this "privilege" to southern Spaniards? You do realize how unrealistic and contrary to actual historical evidence that would be, do you? Ancient empires like the Greek and Roman ones were in contact with more people from those places than "Al-Andalus" was during the Middle Ages.

Wilhelm
22-02-15, 19:03
As you can see from those "maps", these markers are found all over southern Europe, many times in fact at higher levels than in southern Spain. Should we attribute it all to "Phoenicians", "Jews" and other Middle Easterners in those places as well, or do we arbitrarily only reserve this "privilege" to southern Spaniards? You do realize how unrealistic and contrary to actual historical evidence that would be, do you? Ancient empires like the Greek and Roman ones were in contact with more people from those places than "Al-Andalus" was during the Middle Ages.
It seems to me that phoenicians had airplanes, and they flew directly from the Levant to Spain, without leaving any trace in the rest of Europe.

Pax Augusta
22-02-15, 19:05
It seems to me that phoenicians had airplanes, and they flew directly from the Levant to Spain, without leaving any trace in the rest of Europe.

https://mapcollection.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/greek-phoenician-colonies.jpg

Wilhelm
22-02-15, 20:15
https://mapcollection.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/greek-phoenician-colonies.jpg
Obviously the people who brought J2a to Iberia was the same people that brought it in the rest of Southern-Europe.

Pax Augusta
22-02-15, 20:24
Obviously the people who brought J2a to Iberia was the same people that brought it in the rest of Southern-Europe.

Not necessarily. J2a has different sources in Europe.

Wilhelm
22-02-15, 20:50
Indo-Europeans did bring Caucasus_Gedrosia with them, but it got diluted on the way, and by the time R1b-P312 people reached Iberia not much of it was left. That explains why the Basques and Catalans have none of it despite having over 80% of R1b. .
Catalans you don't know because they are not a sample in the Haak et al. study, and Basques do have it, look at K=19.

Wilhelm
22-02-15, 20:52
Not necessarily. J2a has different sources in Europe.
Well, if you want to be more specific, how about J2a-M67 ? It's also found in Italy, Greece, etc.

Gracchus
22-02-15, 21:39
How many times have you been in Spain ?
I am Spanish and does not differentiate between Catalan and Andalusian ...

MOESAN
23-02-15, 01:17
I fervently and with great interest went to look up what 100% European mean and I stumbled onto this:-

......both Africans and Asians contributed to the settlement of Europe, which began about 40,000 years ago. It seems very reasonable to assume that both continents nearest to Europe contributed to its settlement, even if perhaps at different times and maybe repeatedly. It is reassuring that the analysis of other markers also consistently gives the same results in this case. Moreover, a specific evolutionary model tested, i.e., that Europe is formed by contributions from Asia and Africa, fits the distance matrix perfectly (6). In this simplified model, the migrations postulated to have populated Europe are estimated to have occurred at an early date (30,000 years ago), but it is impossible to distinguish, on the basis of these data, this model from that of several migrations at different times.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe

:thinking:

this is ridiculous I think: Europe is made of "Africans" for the most, but specific Africans passed throught N-E Africa and having given birth ot future Asians and Europeans (very roughly said) - the assumed direct passage between N-Africa and Europe in ancient times can concern only a few people and relatively recently - I could discuss all that (I and others too, here) more deeply but I find it's a lost time -

Drac II
23-02-15, 06:41
https://mapcollection.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/greek-phoenician-colonies.jpg
"Maps" don't tell the whole story. There is evidence of Phoenicians on the coasts of Etruria as well:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30129-The-Mediterranean-route-into-Europe-(Paschou-et-al-2014)?p=434169&viewfull=1#post434169

Maleth
23-02-15, 10:30
this is ridiculous I think: Europe is made of "Africans" for the most, but specific Africans passed throught N-E Africa and having given birth ot future Asians and Europeans (very roughly said)

I agree with your assertion, however I would not call it ridiculous as it holds truth as you also state in your post. Its just the way its worded as you say a direct genetic impact from Africa would have been very minimal (I presume they are referring to E-M81 via Gibraltar which probably is much more ancient then recently, albeit a direct Africa (north) impact). The vast majority 99% (?) of 'European' gene pool has arrived via West Asia. At least that is my opinion.

Maleth
23-02-15, 11:59
Well, if you want to be more specific, how about J2a-M67 ? It's also found in Italy, Greece, etc.

Lets consider some simple logic:

*)J2 has been around for 20,000 years, so there was ample time for this haplogroup to spread around the shores of the Mediterranean from its birth place probably Western Asia. If humans could do it in 4000 years from South Asia to Oceana (Australia) I cannot see why this would not be possible.

*) Phoenician era 3500 years ago and Classical Greek era was around 2500 years ago, so compared to the birth of J2 both eras are pretty recent.

This means that it was very possible that J2 had actually interacted in these particular regions for a good number of years before they acquired their geographical names we know of today (thank you to the Phoenician alphabet, later influenced greatly the Greeks who left a great deal of documentation we refer to today on many accounts. But there was still a life before that, but no documentations so we need to rely on artifacts and other remains for indications and obviously Dna can help and needs to be interpreted within the historical and prehistorical context without anyone jumping to conclusions).

In the meantime its extremely possible that this 20,000 year old haplogroup also travelled to other regions (as the Australasia aboriginal example) to other areas beyond. So that is a very probable one way of how J2 arrived by a gradual expansion prior to the ancient Greek and Phoenicians.

Of course like everybody else I am also inclined to believe that some contributions through 'colonisation'. Now, how, why and what colonisation means visa vi genetic impact is another story as i believe there are different types of colonistion and not always meaning great sudden migrations although we know it happened in certain instances but they variey as in:-

*)a group of people ruling an already existing population,

*)to the founding of a total new town from the arriving migrants.

I think this is not absolutely clear when we talk about colonisation, especially were no documentation is available which is a very long period of time indeed.

Hauteville
23-02-15, 12:09
Spanish North are Spanish Basques. It's even evident in the admixture analysis.

Melancon
23-02-15, 12:44
Well, if you want to be more specific, how about J2a-M67 ? It's also found in Italy, Greece, etc.Why does it seem like you are in denial of Spain's alleged Near Eastern/Levantine admixture? Not all peoples are mixed; obviously. I do not mean to say all Andalusians have this admixture; just the percentage of this admixture is extremely common in the South especially among Andalusians. And in another thread that Sile posted; one Catalonian man had haplogroup Y-DNA R2. How did it get there? The only explanation is that it was brought there by non-Europeans. Because R2 is not European in origin; and is most common around the Indian Subcontinent as well as the Middle East.


There are also small samples of Y-DNA H in Andalusians which suggests that some men in Andalusia may have had a male Roma ancestor.


I would say; in all likelihood, since you're Catalan and from the North of Iberia...The chances of you having a Phoenician/Moorish/Jewish/Roma/whatever ancestor; would be very low. You seem to be very insecure of Spaniards having non-European mixture though, for some odd reason. But you are Y-DNA R1b and mtdna H1; so the chances of you as a Catalan having non-European admixture would be very low. (In contrast to someone who lives in the region of Andalusia)

I am not saying that it is true that they are mixed with Arabic people; but it is still a mystery to me how haplogroups such as J1, J2, Q1b and even R2 or H arrived on the Iberian peninsula. They obviously did not come from Celts or Romans. So who brought them there? Even if there is some mixture; it does not mean all Andalusians share this admixture, and many of them may be as non-mixed as Northern Iberians.

But, I have observed Andalusians and Portuguese people and I can say they do not resemble the Basque people (or other Northern Iberians) at all. And many of them do appear to have non-European features. Their hair color and skin color is often darker than other Europeans; and they look like they picked up Near Eastern genetics. A lot of Andalusians I've noticed; look like Europeans mixed with Lebanese or Syrians. (not in a literal sense; just an analogy.) Most of them have dark black hair, the majority of it is straight while there are a few with curly hair. Sometimes there is Blondism but it is rare.

Maleth
23-02-15, 13:20
But you are Y-DNA R1b and mtdna H1; so the chances of you as a Catalan having non-European admixture would be very low. (In contrast to someone who lives in the region of Andalusia)

Relax :grin: R1b probable origins are West asian, so would that make anyone R1b less European. And why would you consdier anyone J2 non european? Should everyone have brown or blond hair to be European? :grin:

Melancon
23-02-15, 15:47
Relax :grin: R1b probable origins are West asian, so would that make anyone R1b less European. And why would you consdier anyone J2 non european? Should everyone have brown or blond hair to be European? :grin:This is not what I'm talking about; you misunderstand once again. I know that there are subclades of J2 that are European. And I know that R1b did not originate in Europe; but it is a European haplogroup, at least now.

The frequency of J1 and J2 arise from the South; suggesting they may have come from Northern Africa. It would not surprise me if the subclades had a Near Eastern origin. In South Portugal J1 is extremely dominant and seems to diminish in frequency in Northern Iberia; which may suggest an Arabic entry from the South. It could not have come from Greeks or Romans.

There are Caucasians and Europeans who have J1 subclades; but they mostly descend from Caucasians who assimilated into Europe. Which may explain the high frequency of J1 in Hungary; brought by the Caucasian Avars. Around what is now Hungary you will notice on this map that Caucasian Avars from the Caucasus migrated into modern day Hungary.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/71/SlavCultures700.png/350px-SlavCultures700.png

The Avars are extremely dominant in Y-DNA J1.

And it explains why there is a high abundance of J1 in Hungary today:

7096

Most non-Caucasians that carry subclades J1 have a Near Eastern/Arabic origin; though. You will also notice a high abundance of J1 in North Africa; as well as Southern Iberia, most notably Portugal. Which suggests that there may have been North Africans that blended into the population. However, it seems almost totally absent in Catalonia and near the Basque country; interestingly.

Angela
23-02-15, 16:36
Why does it seem like you are in denial of Spain's alleged Near Eastern/Levantine admixture? Not all peoples are mixed; obviously. I do not mean to say all Andalusians have this admixture; just the percentage of this admixture is extremely common in the South especially among Andalusians. And in another thread that Sile posted; one Catalonian man had haplogroup Y-DNA R2. How did it get there? The only explanation is that it was brought there by non-Europeans. Because R2 is not European in origin; and is most common around the Indian Subcontinent as well as the Middle East.


There are also small samples of Y-DNA H in Andalusians which suggests that some men in Andalusia may have had a male Roma ancestor.


I would say; in all likelihood, since you're Catalan and from the North of Iberia...The chances of you having a Phoenician/Moorish/Jewish/Roma/whatever ancestor; would be very low. You seem to be very insecure of Spaniards having non-European mixture though, for some odd reason. But you are Y-DNA R1b and mtdna H1; so the chances of you as a Catalan having non-European admixture would be very low. (In contrast to someone who lives in the region of Andalusia)

I am not saying that it is true that they are mixed with Arabic people; but it is still a mystery to me how haplogroups such as J1, J2, Q1b and even R2 or H arrived on the Iberian peninsula. They obviously did not come from Celts or Romans. So who brought them there? Even if there is some mixture; it does not mean all Andalusians share this admixture, and many of them may be as non-mixed as Northern Iberians.

But, I have observed Andalusians and Portuguese people and I can say they do not resemble the Basque people (or other Northern Iberians) at all. And many of them do appear to have non-European features. Their hair color and skin color is often darker than other Europeans; and they look like they picked up Near Eastern genetics. A lot of Andalusians I've noticed; look like Europeans mixed with Lebanese or Syrians. (not in a literal sense; just an analogy.) Most of them have dark black hair, the majority of it is straight while there are a few with curly hair. Sometimes there is Blondism but it is rare.


It doesn't appear that you have read the genetics papers of the last five or so years, or if you have read them perhaps it is that you haven't fully absorbed the implications of these papers for an understanding of the peopling of Europe. ALL Europeans have Near Eastern/Levantine admixture; the only question is how much and when did it arrive. West Eurasia forms a genetic continuum. You are aware, I take it, that many of the earliest inhabitants of Europe came via the Near East and the Caucasus?

Even should we move forward a bit in history, let's look at the Neolithic advance. Are you aware that agriculture was "invented" in the Near East? Do you know that most Europeans can be modeled as a mixture of three ancient populations, one of which is correlated with the Near East? Have you ever heard the term EEF? If you've sent a sample in to FTDNA or 23andme and then run your data through a calculator at gedmatch, you can get an EEF number for yourself. If you're part French and part English that number should be around 50%, and probably 80% of that is "Near Eastern". It's more complicated than this, but to put it simply it stems from people from the border of the coastal Levant near northern Syria and the southeastern portion of Turkey.

Let's now look at your assertions about yDna. First of all, you cannot draw any grand conclusions from such poorly defined yDna lineage information. You need a lot more resolution than that. I don't have the time to address all the subclades found in the study and their probable sources in terms of migrations into Europe . Suffice it to say that "H" yDna has been found in very ancient contexts in Europe. Only a very specific yDna "H" has any connection to the Roma. E-V13 has been found in a Neolithic European context, and the sub-clade of that which is most frequent in Europe today probably expanded from Greece during the Bronze Age. E-M81 is definitely a Berber lineage, but while some of it probably arrived in Spain and Sicily during the Moorish domination, in the case of Spain some of it may be Neolithic in origin. In terms of J2a you need very specific subclade information. J2a has been found in a Bronze Age Indo-European warrior in central Europe. We don't know yet J2a's precise migration path into Europe or its timing, but the vast majority of it is either Neolithic or Bronze Age in origin. For J1 there are also different subclades. Some came during the Neolithic, others came later. R2 is not European? Is the C of Mesolithic hunter gatherers European? How about the N found in Uralic speaking peoples? Let's look at the "Q" lineages. There is Q in the eastern European hunter gatherers. Or are those acceptably European because their spread is more "northern" in terms of spread?

As for R1b, the ancient R1b Yamnaya samples from whom (or from closely related peoples) the R1b in Europe stems were half "Armenian like". Last time I checked an atlas, Armenia was in the Near East. R1a is associated with Corded Ware, which can be modeled as 75% Yamnaya, and then there was admixture with Middle Neolithic people. For descendents of R1b and R1a Indo-Europeans in Europe to somehow see "Near Eastern" ancestry as inferior is bizarre to me to say the least.

There is no simple correlation, in my opinion, between yDna lineages and "ethnic" composition even on a macro level, much less on an individual level where generations of mixing may have diluted all traces of the origin and autosomal make up of an intrusive yDna lineage. All one needs to do to understand these concepts is to look at all those R1b people in Chad.

To turn to the Phoenicians specifically. I know that Zilloua has convinced many people that the Phoenicians were all J2a. I highly doubt that by their time any Levant population was exclusively one yDna lineage. However, let's assume that they were indeed all J2a. In order to tease out their specific contribution to any
particular European "ethnicity" you would need a sample of "Phoencian" yDna with subclade resolution. Even then you need an understanding that yDna contribution is going to be different than autosomal impact, particularly in the case of traders. Who knows, like traveling salesmen today, perhaps part of the appeal of long distance trade was specifically to get away from the "wife". http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/grin.pngPersonally, I don't find it probable they had a major impact anywhere, given the largely mercantile nature of their migrations. Were it otherwise, where is their specific J2a contribution to the area around Carthage, their most important stronghold?

Not that I have anything against the Phoenicians, mind. I have a lot more against the Indo-Europeans, believe it or not. My personal sympathies are always with the civilized core, not the Barbarians at the Gate.* The Phoenicians, at least, were descendents of the Canaanites, good followers of the Great Mother.http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/smile.gif They were also great merchants, intrepid sea farers, and inventors of advanced navigation and the alphabet to boot. What's not to like? Is it that they were "Near Eastern"? It's not like this ancestry came from Mars. It's been in Europe since at least the Neolithic, and, who knows, maybe some of it was already in Greece in the Mesolithic. The Phoenicians were probably just a blend of EEF and ANE, two of the three components that shaped Europeans.

After years of listening to exponents of this point of view, it seems to me that the determining factor for some people as to whether a certain autosomal component is or is not "European" is when it arrived. For some, if it arrived after the Mesolithic it's not "European". Of course, for people like, say, the northwestern Europeans, that would mean a good chunk of their ancestry is not "European". Or, some move the goal post forward, and would say after the Bronze Age it's not European. Of course, if you examine that, it would include an awful lot of J2a that probably arrived in Europe in the Bronze Age. So perhaps they mean specifically if it arrived in the early Middle Ages with the Moorish invasions it's not "European"?That would let the Phoenician ancestry squeeze in just as the door closes, I suppose.http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/thinking.gif Or is it just that anything that came via a more northern corridor, like the Siberian ancestry in the northeast, is still "European" but via a southern corridor it's not?

I really don't understand the workings of this kind of mindset, and never have, so basically I just disregard this kind of world view as an abberation which has nothing to do with logic.

Bottom line, as I and others have said, "European" is a geographic, political, cultural, and to some extent (in terms of history)religious construct. The genetics form a cline. By that measure the Spanish are indeed European, all of them, with many contributions to European civilization, far more than areas which you undoubtedly think are more European because they are in northern Europe rather than in southern Europe.

Melancon
23-02-15, 17:38
Afro-Asiatic speaking Levant peoples are not Western-world people; and therefore are not Europeans. They lack genetics that Europeans have.

It is the equivalent to saying a Tunisian or Algerian is a European; despite his darker skin and black hair. He is obviously of a different race. Just because people from the Levant have fair-skin does not make them of the same race as Europeans.

People don't get it and never will.

Since when are Arabs considered European? That's a new revelation to me...They are a subrace of Caucasians that developed independently; while Europeans developed in a different way.

Angela
23-02-15, 18:15
Afro-Asiatic speaking Levant peoples are not Western-world people; and therefore are not Europeans. They lack genetics that Europeans have.

It is the equivalent to saying a Tunisian or Algerian is a European; despite his darker skin and black hair. He is obviously of a different race. Just because people from the Levant have fair-skin does not make them of the same race as Europeans.

People don't get it and never will.

Since when are Arabs considered European? That's a new revelation to me...They are a subrace of Caucasians that developed independently; while Europeans developed in a different way.

Did I ever say that Tunisians or Algerians are European? Did I ever even say that Levantines are European? I said that the ancestral populations which form the majority of the ancestry of the Levantines (ENF and ANE if you want to use those terms) also went into the making of "the Europeans". It's just a question of percentages. It's a cline. (They do, of course, now have additional SSA acquired over the centuries.)

I implied that a few percentage points of ancestry in a modern European that arrived in the late Bronze Age via some Afro-Asiatic speakers like the Phoenicians, or the few percentage points that might be attributable to the "Moors" (who have WHG, as well as ENF, in addition to their large SSA component), even if you could separate the non-SSA portion of it out from other earlier migrations, doesn't mean that person isn't as fully European as a person without it, just as Finns with 7-8% Siberian are fully European.

Either you see the logic of this argument or you don't.

Drac II
23-02-15, 19:27
Why does it seem like you are in denial of Spain's alleged Near Eastern/Levantine admixture? Not all peoples are mixed; obviously. I do not mean to say all Andalusians have this admixture; just the percentage of this admixture is extremely common in the South especially among Andalusians. And in another thread that Sile posted; one Catalonian man had haplogroup Y-DNA R2. How did it get there? The only explanation is that it was brought there by non-Europeans. Because R2 is not European in origin; and is most common around the Indian Subcontinent as well as the Middle East.


There are also small samples of Y-DNA H in Andalusians which suggests that some men in Andalusia may have had a male Roma ancestor.


I would say; in all likelihood, since you're Catalan and from the North of Iberia...The chances of you having a Phoenician/Moorish/Jewish/Roma/whatever ancestor; would be very low. You seem to be very insecure of Spaniards having non-European mixture though, for some odd reason. But you are Y-DNA R1b and mtdna H1; so the chances of you as a Catalan having non-European admixture would be very low. (In contrast to someone who lives in the region of Andalusia)

I am not saying that it is true that they are mixed with Arabic people; but it is still a mystery to me how haplogroups such as J1, J2, Q1b and even R2 or H arrived on the Iberian peninsula. They obviously did not come from Celts or Romans. So who brought them there? Even if there is some mixture; it does not mean all Andalusians share this admixture, and many of them may be as non-mixed as Northern Iberians.

But, I have observed Andalusians and Portuguese people and I can say they do not resemble the Basque people (or other Northern Iberians) at all. And many of them do appear to have non-European features. Their hair color and skin color is often darker than other Europeans; and they look like they picked up Near Eastern genetics. A lot of Andalusians I've noticed; look like Europeans mixed with Lebanese or Syrians. (not in a literal sense; just an analogy.) Most of them have dark black hair, the majority of it is straight while there are a few with curly hair. Sometimes there is Blondism but it is rare.

Once again, the "Near Eastern" features that you think southern Spaniards have are in fact more common in many other areas of Europe, specially where strong Dinarization has occurred:

http://www.geocities.ws/racial_reality/subraces.html

Anthropologists have in fact used the predominance of straight facial profiles and brunette hair among Iberians (as opposed to aquiline profiles and black hair, more common in North Africa and the Middle East) as two of the most distinguishing factors between Iberians and non-European "Mediterranean" populations. Unlike the more Dinaricized and more contemporary "Mediterraneans" from the Near East, Iberians have remained more like the original prehistoric Mediterraneans due to much less Dinaric influence.

Yetos
23-02-15, 20:30
This is not what I'm talking about; you misunderstand once again. I know that there are subclades of J2 that are European. And I know that R1b did not originate in Europe; but it is a European haplogroup, at least now.

The frequency of J1 and J2 arise from the South; suggesting they may have come from Northern Africa. It would not surprise me if the subclades had a Near Eastern origin. In South Portugal J1 is extremely dominant and seems to diminish in frequency in Northern Iberia; which may suggest an Arabic entry from the South. It could not have come from Greeks or Romans.

There are Caucasians and Europeans who have J1 subclades; but they mostly descend from Caucasians who assimilated into Europe. Which may explain the high frequency of J1 in Hungary; brought by the Caucasian Avars. Around what is now Hungary you will notice on this map that Caucasian Avars from the Caucasus migrated into modern day Hungary.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/71/SlavCultures700.png/350px-SlavCultures700.png

The Avars are extremely dominant in Y-DNA J1.

And it explains why there is a high abundance of J1 in Hungary today:

7096

Most non-Caucasians that carry subclades J1 have a Near Eastern/Arabic origin; though. You will also notice a high abundance of J1 in North Africa; as well as Southern Iberia, most notably Portugal. Which suggests that there may have been North Africans that blended into the population. However, it seems almost totally absent in Catalonia and near the Basque country; interestingly.

J1 has nothing to do with J2a or J2b
J1 is turned to a semitic characteristic
while J2a a south caucas that turns as a characteristic of mediterenean and black sea
and j2b semms to be connected with some waves of IE

the role of J2a is still uncertain and until now can not be defined,
for example we do not know much Minoan, Pontic, Phoenician was,
but we know was a seafring HG that spread all over mediterenean and black sea,

Yetos
23-02-15, 20:33
Once again, the "Near Eastern" features that you think southern Spaniards have are in fact more common in many other areas of Europe, specially where strong Dinarization has occurred:

http://www.geocities.ws/racial_reality/subraces.html

Anthropologists have in fact used the predominance of straight facial profiles and brunette hair among Iberians (as opposed to aquiline profiles and black hair, more common in North Africa and the Middle East) as two of the most distinguishing factors between Iberians and non-European "Mediterranean" populations. Unlike the more Dinaricized and more contemporary "Mediterraneans" from the Near East, Iberians have remained more like the original prehistoric Mediterraneans due to much less Dinaric influence.

when you say non European mediterenean populations?
do you input R1xyz as European? or even otzi's G2a

Sile
23-02-15, 20:47
This is not what I'm talking about; you misunderstand once again. I know that there are subclades of J2 that are European. And I know that R1b did not originate in Europe; but it is a European haplogroup, at least now.

The frequency of J1 and J2 arise from the South; suggesting they may have come from Northern Africa. It would not surprise me if the subclades had a Near Eastern origin. In South Portugal J1 is extremely dominant and seems to diminish in frequency in Northern Iberia; which may suggest an Arabic entry from the South. It could not have come from Greeks or Romans.

There are Caucasians and Europeans who have J1 subclades; but they mostly descend from Caucasians who assimilated into Europe. Which may explain the high frequency of J1 in Hungary; brought by the Caucasian Avars. Around what is now Hungary you will notice on this map that Caucasian Avars from the Caucasus migrated into modern day Hungary.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/71/SlavCultures700.png/350px-SlavCultures700.png

The Avars are extremely dominant in Y-DNA J1.

And it explains why there is a high abundance of J1 in Hungary today:

7096

Most non-Caucasians that carry subclades J1 have a Near Eastern/Arabic origin; though. You will also notice a high abundance of J1 in North Africa; as well as Southern Iberia, most notably Portugal. Which suggests that there may have been North Africans that blended into the population. However, it seems almost totally absent in Catalonia and near the Basque country; interestingly.

read this below, it will help wiuth your phoenicians
http://www.academia.edu/3642572/Unraveling_the_Prehistoric_Ancestry_of_the_present-day_Inhabitants_of_Northeast_Africa._An_Archaeogen etic_Approach_to_Neolithisation

Angela
23-02-15, 22:30
J1 has nothing to do with J2a or J2b
J1 is turned to a semitic characteristic
while J2a a south caucas that turns as a characteristic of mediterenean and black sea
and j2b semms to be connected with some waves of IE

the role of J2a is still uncertain and until now can not be defined,
for example we do not know much Minoan, Pontic, Phoenician was,
but we know was a seafring HG that spread all over mediterenean and black sea,

J1 has different subclades. We just don't know very much about them because the money and the hobbyist community is more interested in R1a and R1b. What used to be called J1e or P58 is the "Semitic" clade. It is extremely frequent in the Arabian peninsula because of a founder effect there. The consensus still seems to be that J1 arose somewhere around the Zagros, but many clades, including J-P58, moved south. There are clades of J1 in Europe that have nothing to do with the Arabian peninsula. It's not totally clear yet when they arrived or what migrations were responsible for them. There are threads that discuss it at more depth if you are interested in it.

I agree that J2's center of gravity is further north. I also agree that we may find that some subclades of J2 were involved in some waves of IE migrations.

Johannes
23-02-15, 22:37
Well, essentially; they were all Afro-Asiatic speaking peoples with origins in the Levant and Near East. So am I not completely wrong here? If you are talking about the same percentages, then yes I may be correct.

Basques look nothing like Andalusians in terms of phenotype; and Basques are more Northern European while Andalusians would fit Mediterranean. And it is in my personal opinion; from experience; that some Andalusian Spaniards look very similar to Near Easterners like the Lebanese and Syrians; and may have picked up some of those genetics.

I was a bit taken aback by some of the people posting here, arguing against and claiming that they were in complete discordance in their analogies with mine. I was expecting the opposite. Lots of Southern Iberians have non-European ancestry; it's no secret to me.

Malecon you are a block head. I just started reading your postings and you appear to be a very ignorant man. You seem to be knowledgeable about Basques and Northern Spaniards but it is obvious you are ignorant. I grew up with Basques in Boise, Idaho and they never looked like what you mentioned. Of course some that I met who looked "white" were actually mixed with white people and resembled "white Basques"; but the vast majority of "pure" Basques did not look anything like you said. To me they looked like Jews or Middle Eastern -- most had black hair, were short, had very hairy bodies, long hooked noses, dark skin -- So were have you seen your "Basques"??? I even went to the Basque country last year and spent some time in San Sebastian and Vitoria and I never saw anything like "Northern Europeans" or Celts! They did not look like Irish or English thats for sure! I did occasionally see some red haired and blue-eyed Basques but they were very rare and I doubt it if they were "true Basques". Most Basques were dark skinned and Mediterrenean. Have you been to Spain or Idaho? You dont know what the hell you are talking about. You are an arm chair amateur, speculating about things you dont know about. I visited Spain and most Spaniards are white just like regular Europeans. Yes, there are some that are Mediterrenean-looking but they are a minority. What: are there many Basques in Louisiana?

Yetos
23-02-15, 23:20
@Angela

J1 is not only in Arabic peninsula, it is also connected with Jew Diaspora in many areas.

Melancon
24-02-15, 04:20
J1 has nothing to do with J2a or J2b
J1 is turned to a semitic characteristic
while J2a a south caucas that turns as a characteristic of mediterenean and black sea
and j2b semms to be connected with some waves of IE

the role of J2a is still uncertain and until now can not be defined,
for example we do not know much Minoan, Pontic, Phoenician was,
but we know was a seafring HG that spread all over mediterenean and black sea,I didn't say that. I know that J1 and J2 exist in several races; just like R1b. The only thing that matters is the subclade and how it got there; that can determine ethnicity and/or admixture.

Melancon
24-02-15, 04:41
Malecon you are a block head. I just started reading your postings and you appear to be a very ignorant man. You seem to be knowledgeable about Basques and Northern Spaniards but it is obvious you are ignorant. I grew up with Basques in Boise, Idaho and they never looked like what you mentioned. Of course some that I met who looked "white" were actually mixed with white people and resembled "white Basques"; but the vast majority of "pure" Basques did not look anything like you said. To me they looked like Jews or Middle Eastern -- most had black hair, were short, had very hairy bodies, long hooked noses, dark skin -- So were have you seen your "Basques"??? I even went to the Basque country last year and spent some time in San Sebastian and Vitoria and I never saw anything like "Northern Europeans" or Celts! They did not look like Irish or English thats for sure! I did occasionally see some red haired and blue-eyed Basques but they were very rare and I doubt it if they were "true Basques". Most Basques were dark skinned and Mediterrenean. Have you been to Spain or Idaho? You dont know what the hell you are talking about. You are an arm chair amateur, speculating about things you dont know about. I visited Spain and most Spaniards are white just like regular Europeans. Yes, there are some that are Mediterrenean-looking but they are a minority. What: are there many Basques in Louisiana?Are you serious? That has to be one of the most retarded and ill-informed posts I've ever seen in this whole website of Eupedia, ever. I don't intend to offend. But where is your own credibility? I have stated facts. And by the way, your mtdna A2 suggests you have a Native American ancestor on your maternal side. I am certainly no "blockhead".


"What: are there many Basques in Louisiana?"

Yep, Zatarain is actually a Basque surname. I drink their root-beer extract almost anytime I can get it. ;) And lots of Cajuns have Basque ancestry, ahem. You are ill-informed on the matter quite clearly; and have no ground to attack me personally on this trivial issue.

Here is a video that shows what the Basques of Spain look-like; and they look very Celtic or Northern European. Small face, rounded chin. Sometimes blonde or dirty-blonde hair. Extremely fair skin. Blue eyes.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYWD2ERVKyI

(in fact, I believe that I may resemble some of these people.)

There is very little percentage for Basques to have anything but European admixture; because they are extremely homogeneous. Their phenotype is Northern European; not Mediterranean.

Melancon
24-02-15, 05:24
read this below, it will help wiuth your phoenicians
http://www.academia.edu/3642572/Unraveling_the_Prehistoric_Ancestry_of_the_present-day_Inhabitants_of_Northeast_Africa._An_Archaeogen etic_Approach_to_Neolithisation

Well it doesn't have to be necessarily Phoenicians in particular. Almost everything I have said here, can be backed by Maciamo. But I am sure he could have disagreements with me; likewise. But I know the majority of what I stated was correct.

It seems nobody understands what I am saying; no matter how hard I try to get to them. I am not contradicting myself; everyone is making assumptions against me. Like usual. Alas, I realize that average humans are not very quick...

Alan
24-02-15, 05:44
This makes no sense. The EEF component itself is a mixture of WHG and Ancient Near-East farmer. Otherwise, the EEF wouldn't plot halfway between the WHG and the Near-East.

I agree that there is not much difference between South and North Iberia. But we already had this discussion about EEF.

From the Lazaridis paper we know this component is between 2 and 45% WHG admixed, depending on how mixed we consider the Bedouin refference. Lazaridis comes to the conclusion that both ends are unlikely so. ~ 20% WHG admixture from Balkans makes sense. Don't forget that even the Levant has still a significant percentage of WHG.

The reason why EEF is btween WHG and Near East is not because it is halfway mixed with WHG. But because both EEF and the Near Eastern repopulation have obviously mixed over the 10000 of years.

With other words EEF drifted in both ways.

So taking the modern Bedoing or even Levantine population as the exact position of ancient farmers and than trying to calculate the WHG admixture is just wrong.

But as I said even levantines have allot of WHG so It could even be very possibl that the Near Eastern farmers already were EEF.

Melancon
24-02-15, 05:59
I dare people to look up "Andalusians" or "Andalusian people" on google images; and tell me if they have any resemblance to Europeans or even Basques, for that matter.

Photos of Andalusians:

7097


7098


7099

7100

7101



I see no resemblance to Basques whatsoever. There is obvious admixture to me. Slightly darker skin color, dark hair, slightly-wider nose, slanted eyebrows. They look more like the Lebanese people to me! And even Lebanese people can appear more European!

Disclaimer: I am really just joking most the time. I do not know if they are actually mixed. Don't take me seriously. From my eyes personally; they do look like they have some sort of Near Eastern/Levant admixture though.

Melancon
24-02-15, 06:46
Did I ever say that Tunisians or Algerians are European? Did I ever even say that Levantines are European? I said that the ancestral populations which form the majority of the ancestry of the Levantines (ENF and ANE if you want to use those terms) also went into the making of "the Europeans". It's just a question of percentages. It's a cline. (They do, of course, now have additional SSA acquired over the centuries.)

I implied that a few percentage points of ancestry in a modern European that arrived in the late Bronze Age via some Afro-Asiatic speakers like the Phoenicians, or the few percentage points that might be attributable to the "Moors" (who have WHG, as well as ENF, in addition to their large SSA component), even if you could separate the non-SSA portion of it out from other earlier migrations, doesn't mean that person isn't as fully European as a person without it, just as Finns with 7-8% Siberian are fully European.

Either you see the logic of this argument or you don't.There is no problem with me understanding; seems like everyone else is self-projecting their misunderstandings onto me. Spain and Portugal have the most African and Red Sea admixture of any country in Europe. That is evident by the maps here on Eupedia. But people here say that Spanish people have no North African or Near Eastern contribution. So these two arguments seem like a total contradiction to me; and this is where everyone in this thread has a clash/misunderstanding.

Someone here said that mtdna U6 wasn't Sephardic Jewish as I had insisted; but instead said that it was North African. Which only proves my point; and they contradicted themselves. While claiming that Catalonians and other Spaniards have no Phoenician or Arabic admixture. (I can go back and quote them.) No offense to them; but they have contradicted themselves; not I.

Using logic. Someone here in this post is wrong. It's not me. Is it actually Maciamo of all people?

Additionally; there are samples of genetics in Portuguese and Andalusian populations which do not exist in Basques...so to say that they are the same people or have the same looks or admixture is ludicrous.

Melancon
24-02-15, 07:22
Middle Ages with the Moorish invasions it's not "European"?That would let the Phoenician ancestry squeeze in just as the door closes, I suppose.http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/thinking.gif Or is it just that anything that came via a more northern corridor, like the Siberian ancestry in the northeast, is still "European" but via a southern corridor it's not?

I really don't understand the workings of this kind of mindset, and never have, so basically I just disregard this kind of world view as an abberation which has nothing to do with logic.

Bottom line, as I and others have said, "European" is a geographic, political, cultural, and to some extent (in terms of history)religious construct. The genetics form a cline. By that measure the Spanish are indeed European, all of them, with many contributions to European civilization, far more than areas which you undoubtedly think are European because they are in northern Europe rather than in southern Europe.I never claimed anything, once again...you are making baseless assumptions and are once again self-projecting your own issues onto me and creating arguments on things that don't exist.

Think of this argument: if you moved the Irish people to Andalusia, they would still be the stereotypical "Northern Europeans" in their phenotype. They would not be Mediterraneans would they? Now reverse this example and put the Andalusians or the Portuguese people in Ireland. They would not be stereotypical Northern Europeans; they would still be the Mediterranean phenotype!! The same thing applies to the Basque people; who have more in common with the Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Norwegians and other North and Northwestern Europeans.

The Basques are dominated by mtdna H1, H3 and U5 and Y-DNA R1b as well as I1 and G2a etc. They are not similar to Andalusians or other Southern Iberians, who are of the Mediterranean phenotype; and whom carry North African mtdna and Y-DNA samples. Since when is J1 seen at an over 10% frequency in the Basque population or Western Europe as in Southern Portugal? My gosh.

Unless the subclade of J1 is not North African in origin then you can tell me that I am wrong; but you would have to explain all the other North African mtdna as well as Y-DNA...

Maleth
24-02-15, 08:29
I never claimed anything, once again...you are making baseless assumptions and are once again self-projecting your own issues onto me and creating arguments on things that don't exist.

Think of this argument: if you moved the Irish people to Andalusia, they would still be the stereotypical "Northern Europeans" in their phenotype. They would not be Mediterraneans would they? Now reverse this example and put the Andalusians or the Portuguese people in Ireland. They would not be stereotypical Northern Europeans; they would still be the Mediterranean phenotype!! The same thing applies to the Basque people; who have more in common with the Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Norwegians and other North and Northwestern Europeans.

The Basques are dominated by mtdna H1, H3 and U5 and Y-DNA R1b as well as I1 and G2a etc. They are not similar to Andalusians or other Southern Iberians, who are of the Mediterranean phenotype; and whom carry North African mtdna and Y-DNA samples. Since when is J1 seen at an over 10% frequency in the Basque population or Western Europe as in Southern Portugal? My gosh.

Unless the subclade of J1 is not North African in origin then you can tell me that I am wrong; but you would have to explain all the other North African mtdna as well as Y-DNA...

So according to your logic and understanding the subsaharan AfroAsiatic speaking chadic R1b dominated people qualify to be European right? But the probable neolithic or ancient J's or E's......oh is it the G's too? who probably according to science had the first mutations for white skin (if it really matters since you mention it in nearly every post as if to make some kind of scientific point) are just a foreign admixture to a supposidley homogeneous race that arrived from a different route and just as ancient from the norther parts of Euroasia. Would I be in line with your preaching now? or there are other things Im not getting right again?:confused2::grin:

Melancon
24-02-15, 09:18
So according to your logic and understanding the subsaharan AfroAsiatic speaking chadic R1b dominated people qualify to be European right? But the probable neolithic or ancient J's or E's......oh is it the G's too? who probably according to science had the first mutations for white skin (if it really matters since you mention it in nearly every post as if to make some kind of scientific point) are just a foreign admixture to a supposidley homogeneous race that arrived from a different route and just as ancient from the norther parts of Euroasia. Would I be in line with your preaching now? or there are other things Im not getting right again?:confused2::grin:You aren't getting it again. The Chadic subclade of R1b is R1b-V88. And it developed independently from European subclades of R1b.

I know it is a teeny bit hard for some of you to comprehend. :confused2::grin:

Also, please read:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.shtml

"Based on very limited data, the main Lebanese subclades of J1 appear to be J1-YSC234 and J1-YSC76. Both subclades have also been found in Sicily, Andalusia and Portugal, which suggests that they were already found among the Phoenicians. However, since the Arabs conquered the same regions as those colonised by the Phoenicians, it is too early to reach such a conclusion."

Maleth
24-02-15, 10:01
You aren't getting it again. The Chadic subclade of R1b is R1b-V88. And it developed independently from European subclades of R1b.

I know it is a teeny bit hard for some of you to comprehend. :confused2::grin:

Also, please read:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.shtml

"Based on very limited data, the main Lebanese subclades of J1 appear to be J1-YSC234 and J1-YSC76. Both subclades have also been found in Sicily, Andalusia and Portugal, which suggests that they were already found among the Phoenicians. However, since the Arabs conquered the same regions as those colonised by the Phoenicians, it is too early to reach such a conclusion."

Ah this is from Maciamos Blogg. Did you note the 'Based on limited data / its too early to reach such conclusion', what are the percentages and frequencies? what year did these migrate to a particular region?. Probably the year when Europe did not have a name .....:shocked::grin:. I mean look at you I presume you were born (one? two? third generation?) in Canada and you are a Canadian, and J's that might have been in Europe for the 2500 years at the least some much more and a few less are a foreign admixture to a group of people that did not even have there name concocted by that time until recently . Yes it is tiny weeny difficult to comprehend :grin:

Melancon
24-02-15, 10:12
This thread is no longer about tracing the origins of Phoenicians and Arabic DNA in Spaniards. It has been turned into "Uh oh, Melancon is being a racist again."

I have never "preached" to people. My first post was me commenting on several European acquaintances whom I came in contact with; who told me that the Iberians of the South were not white Europeans, like they (the acquaintances) were.......

Some of them included a Basque, a Norwegian, several French people, and a white Frenchman who migrated back into France; with a Moroccan heritage, Muslim background and a Arabic/Berber name. And also a (non-white) Tunisian Muslim who lived in France told me this as well.


I've also had people from Spain tell me that they believe that they have Arabic/non-European ancestry. Admitting it themselves. Several were Andalusians and I recall one being from Madrid.So the people on Eupedia arguing against me; kind of took me by surprise. lol

It's no secret that South Iberians have Middle Eastern heritage. Of course none of this really matters; but some of you seem to be trying to prove something different... I don't know why this is, though.

Melancon
24-02-15, 10:20
Ah this is from Maciamos Blogg. Did you note the 'Based on limited data / its too early to reach such conclusion', what are the percentages and frequencies? what year did these migrate to a particular region?. Probably the year when Europe did not have a name .....:shocked::grin:. I mean look at you I presume you were born (one? two? third generation?) in Canada and you are a Canadian, and J's that might have been in Europe for the 2500 years at the least some much more and a few less are a foreign admixture to a group of people that did not even have there name concocted by that time until recently . Yes it is tiny weeny difficult to comprehend :grin:Well now, that only leaves three things: these Near Eastern people are either a Sub-race or are Mixed race; or both.

You seem to think that white Europeans are a mixture of races. White Europeans are not mixed-race. R1b and R1a individuals from Eastern Europe developed fair-skin in the Neolithic; the same time as the Western I1, I2, E-V13 and G2a individuals. How do I know this? Because mtdna tells me this. R1a/R1b individuals later conquered Western Europe in the age of metal once they became more advanced; slaughtering most of the non-R1 men and taking the women.

The Chadic people who have R1b-V88 most likely have ancestors that migrated back into Europe from Central Asia; when all R1b individuals were still Negroid. So um, fail on your part.

Maleth
24-02-15, 10:59
This thread is no longer about tracing the origins of Phoenicians and Arabic DNA in Spaniards. It has been turned into "Uh oh, Melancon is being a racist again."

Uh...who said that?


ISome of them included a Basque, a Norwegian, several French people, and a white Frenchman who migrated back into France; with a Moroccan heritage, Muslim background and a Arabic/Berber name. And also a (non-white) Tunisian Muslim who lived in France told me this as well.

Again you are confusing things. Recent migrations (as in the last 100 years (stand to be corrected) are not included in population samples. If we had to include recent migrations the gene pool would be much different, thats why the terminology used to describe certain haplogroups is unprofessional to say the least in the world of ancient DNA.



I've also had people from Spain tell me that they believe that they have Arabic/non-European ancestry. Admitting it themselves. Several were Andalusians and I recall one being from Madrid.So the people on Eupedia arguing against me; kind of took me by surprise. lol

It's no secret that South Iberians have Middle Eastern heritage. Of course none of this really matters; but some of you seem to be trying to prove something different... I don't know why this is, though.

yes but that is very basic talk from people who know nothing about the subject, not some one who posts regular on a genetic forum. Keep it simple. There are Northern, Central, Southern Europeans. Arabs North Africans (sometimes called Arab too even though they have there own phenotype s (sometimes they differ within the same groups) all have their own. They all have their own admixtures and percentages and climatic conditions to be what they are. To keep it simple, Generally speaking Norwegians do not look French, French (Generally speaking) do not Look Greek or Spanish, Greek or Spanish do not look North African, North Africans do not look Sub saharan, so on and so forth. Anyone can cherry pick like posting a dark haired and brown eyed Danish person to prove something or post a picture of a blue eyed and blond spaniard to prove something else. But this is small talk and does not contribute anything of much substance / essence

Melancon
24-02-15, 11:30
Uh...who said that?



Again you are confusing things. Recent migrations (as in the last 100 years (stand to be corrected) are not included in population samples. If we had to include recent migrations the gene pool would be much different, thats why the terminology used to describe certain haplogroups is unprofessional to say the least in the world of ancient DNA.




yes but that is very basic talk from people who know nothing about the subject, not some one who posts regular on a genetic forum. Keep it simple. There are Northern, Central, Southern Europeans. Arabs North Africans (sometimes called Arab too even though they have there own phenotype s (sometimes they differ within the same groups) all have their own. They all have their own admixtures and percentages and climatic conditions to be what they are. To keep it simple, Generally speaking Norwegians do not look French, French (Generally speaking) do not Look Greek or Spanish, Greek or Spanish do not look North African, North Africans do not look Sub saharan, so on and so forth. Anyone can cherry pick like posting a dark haired and brown eyed Danish person to prove something or post a picture of a blue eyed and blond spaniard to prove something else. But this is small talk and does not contribute anything of much substance / essenceNo one had to literally say that I was being a racist; I can detect it with baseless assumptions and attempted corrections.

I beg to differ. And I've actually met Andalusians and Portuguese people, as I said before. I've also met a man from Madrid who believed himself to have some Arabic ancestry. People don't consider the evidence; even if it is right there in front of their eyes.

Unless someone can tell me the origins of J1 and J2 in Southern Iberia were not of Arabic origin; then I will stop with that ridiculous argument. But I don't think it's ridiculous. ha

So answer me, are Afro-Asiatic people European? Is Maltese a European language? How come people can say African or Asian in anthropology but not European? Europeans don't exist apparently; and are a mix of Asians and Africans according to you. I am not the one who brought up this ridiculous bullshit argument either; it was you. Refer back to our first posts.

Maleth
24-02-15, 12:24
No one had to literally say that I was being a racist; I can detect it with baseless assumptions and attempted corrections.

I beg to differ. And I've actually met Andalusians and Portuguese people, as I said before. I've also met a man from Madrid who believed himself to have some Arabic ancestry. People don't consider the evidence; even if it is right there in front of their eyes.

Unless someone can tell me the origins of J1 and J2 in Southern Iberia were not of Arabic origin; then I will stop with that ridiculous argument. But I don't think it's ridiculous. ha

So answer me, are Afro-Asiatic people European? Is Maltese a European language? How come people can say African or Asian in anthropology but not European? Europeans don't exist apparently; and are a mix of Asians and Africans according to you. I am not the one who brought up this ridiculous bullshit argument either; it was you. Refer back to our first posts.

Spend some time concentrating on growing up, it will do you good. Enjoy, take care and good bye :smile:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijc1eJVR9Qw

Drac II
24-02-15, 13:35
Malecon you are a block head. I just started reading your postings and you appear to be a very ignorant man. You seem to be knowledgeable about Basques and Northern Spaniards but it is obvious you are ignorant. I grew up with Basques in Boise, Idaho and they never looked like what you mentioned. Of course some that I met who looked "white" were actually mixed with white people and resembled "white Basques"; but the vast majority of "pure" Basques did not look anything like you said. To me they looked like Jews or Middle Eastern -- most had black hair, were short, had very hairy bodies, long hooked noses, dark skin -- So were have you seen your "Basques"??? I even went to the Basque country last year and spent some time in San Sebastian and Vitoria and I never saw anything like "Northern Europeans" or Celts! They did not look like Irish or English thats for sure! I did occasionally see some red haired and blue-eyed Basques but they were very rare and I doubt it if they were "true Basques". Most Basques were dark skinned and Mediterrenean. Have you been to Spain or Idaho? You dont know what the hell you are talking about. You are an arm chair amateur, speculating about things you dont know about. I visited Spain and most Spaniards are white just like regular Europeans. Yes, there are some that are Mediterrenean-looking but they are a minority. What: are there many Basques in Louisiana?

WTH? What you are saying is actually even more mistaken than what he is saying.

Melancon
24-02-15, 14:06
Spend some time concentrating on growing up, it will do you good. Enjoy, take care and good bye

Take your own advices. Dude, listen. I don't really care.

Drac II
24-02-15, 14:06
I dare people to look up "Andalusians" or "Andalusian people" on google images; and tell me if they have any resemblance to Europeans or even Basques, for that matter.

Photos of Andalusians:

7097


7098


7099

7100

7101



I see no resemblance to Basques whatsoever. There is obvious admixture to me. Slightly darker skin color, dark hair, slightly-wider nose, slanted eyebrows. They look more like the Lebanese people to me! And even Lebanese people can appear more European!

Disclaimer: I am really just joking most the time. I do not know if they are actually mixed. Don't take me seriously. From my eyes personally; they do look like they have some sort of Near Eastern/Levant admixture though.

You must really think that people are really naive and can't tell what you are doing. Googling those words also brings up people like these, which you conveniently left out since they don't fit your agenda:


7106:

71047105



7107

It's called "cherry-picking" and it can be done to any country or region.

Note: you also seem ignorant of the fact that Spain has a Gypsy population of over 1 million, the large majority of them in Andalusia. Not everyone you see in Andalusia wearing typical Andalusian garbs is actually ethnically Andalusian.

Drac II
24-02-15, 14:12
Unless someone can tell me the origins of J1 and J2 in Southern Iberia were not of Arabic origin; then I will stop with that ridiculous argument. But I don't think it's ridiculous. ha


Those genetic markers could have entered Southern Iberia during ancient or prehistoric times. Same as the much discussed E-M81 marker from North Africa. All these haplogroups are THOUSANDS of years old. There is no way of pinpointing a specific time for when they entered any given region.

Melancon
24-02-15, 14:17
You must really think that people are really naive and can't tell what you are doing. Googling those words also brings up people like these, which you conveniently left out since they don't fit your agenda:


7106:

71047105



7107

It's called "cherry-picking" and it can be done to any country or region.

Note: you also seem ignorant of the fact that Spain has a Gypsy population of over 1 million, the large majority of them in Andalusia. Not everyone you see in Andalusia wearing typical Andalusian garbs is actually ethnically Andalusian.No cherry picking. none at all. I was actually going to add the first photo you posted haha. but I could only use 5 attachments...and by the way. I still stand by my point.

Drac II
24-02-15, 14:26
There is no problem with me understanding; seems like everyone else is self-projecting their misunderstandings onto me. Spain and Portugal have the most African and Red Sea admixture of any country in Europe. That is evident by the maps here on Eupedia. But people here say that Spanish people have no North African or Near Eastern contribution. So these two arguments seem like a total contradiction to me; and this is where everyone in this thread has a clash/misunderstanding.

Someone here said that mtdna U6 wasn't Sephardic Jewish as I had insisted; but instead said that it was North African. Which only proves my point; and they contradicted themselves. While claiming that Catalonians and other Spaniards have no Phoenician or Arabic admixture. (I can go back and quote them.) No offense to them; but they have contradicted themselves; not I.

Using logic. Someone here in this post is wrong. It's not me. Is it actually Maciamo of all people?

Additionally; there are samples of genetics in Portuguese and Andalusian populations which do not exist in Basques...so to say that they are the same people or have the same looks or admixture is ludicrous.

Red Sea Admixture is highest in Italy, according to that map:

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Red_Sea-admixture.gif

And no one is denying that there are some North African and Middle Eastern haplogroups in Iberia, what is being pointed out is that there is no proof whatsoever that they must be from "recent" (among people with anti-Iberian agendas this is usually jive for "Moorish") times, as some people with peculiar obsessions with Iberians keep trying to push for their own agendas.

Drac II
24-02-15, 14:27
No cherry picking. none at all. I was actually going to add the first photo you posted haha. but I could only use 5 attachments...and by the way. I still stand by my point.

Of course it's cherry picking, and you never really had much of a point to begin with.

Drac II
24-02-15, 14:34
when you say non European mediterenean populations?
do you input R1xyz as European? or even otzi's G2a

No, I mean the countries outside Europe that border the Mediterranean sea. In anthropology these nations are usually labelled "Mediterranean", but a closer analysis reveals that many of them have strong influence from other sub-races, they are not just "Mediterranean". In the case of the Near East (places like Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Turkey, etc.) there's been strong Dinarization, very likely through Armenoid influence.

Melancon
24-02-15, 14:35
Of course it's cherry picking, and you never really had much of a point to begin with.No it's not; and your baseless accusations make you look like a poison clubfoot dwarf in this.

Drac II
24-02-15, 14:42
No it's not; and your baseless accusations make you look like a poison clubfoot dwarf in this.

Your denial of what you obviously did is what makes you look like that.

Melancon
24-02-15, 14:44
Those genetic markers could have entered Southern Iberia during ancient or prehistoric times. Same as the much discussed E-M81 marker from North Africa. All these haplogroups are THOUSANDS of years old. There is no way of pinpointing a specific time for when they entered any given region.J1 is 11,000 years old; making it born in the Middle East during the European Mesolithic. There is no way it could have gotten there from European migration before the Mesolithic. So it is most likely non-European. Unless it came from Central Europe.

You could make the same argument for Q1b; but it would be invalid....because Q1b was brought to South Iberia by either the Phoenicians or Sephardic Jews:

7108

It is also prevalent in Sicily; and so is J1.

I'm stating facts...all you are doing is making up your own reality with wishful thinking; and making baseless accusations. "anti-iberian" - So you are calling me a racist.

Melancon
24-02-15, 14:46
Your denial of what you obviously did is what makes you look like that.There is no in-denial; you are self-projecting your own insecurities. I called you a clubfoot because it is a character in Nietzsche's Thus Spoke Zarathustra.

Drac II
24-02-15, 14:54
J1 is 11,000 years old; making it born in the Middle East during the European Mesolithic. There is no way it could have gotten there from non-European migration after the Mesolithic.

You could make the same argument for Q1b; but it would be invalid....because Q1b was brought to South Iberia by either the Phoenicians or Sephardic Jews:

7108

It is also prevalent in Sicily; and so is J1.

I'm stating facts...all you are doing is making up your own reality with wishful thinking; and making baseless accusations. "anti-iberian" - So you are calling me a racist.

You are stating assumptions, which is a very different thing. Again, there is no conclusive evidence that these haplogroups, which you seem already aware of how old they are, was brought by any specific group of people during historical times. The fact that most haplogroup studies try to be cautious about this and use words like "may", "and/or" and the like should already have told you that.

J1 is not only found in Sicily, it is found almost all over the Italian peninsula.

Drac II
24-02-15, 14:56
There is no in-denial; you are self-projecting your own insecurities. I called you a clubfoot because it is a character in Nietzsche's Thus Spoke Zarathustra.

Of course there is, you did something in plain public view and then tried to claim you did not. Did you really think no one was going to call your bluff and check?

Melancon
24-02-15, 15:05
You are stating assumptions, which is a very different thing. Again, there is no conclusive evidence that these haplogroups, which you seem already aware of how old they are, was brought by any specific group of people during historical times. The fact that most haplogroup studies try to be cautious about this and use words like "may", "and/or" and the like should already have told you that.

J1 is not only found in Sicily, it is found almost all over the Italian peninsula.If I am making baseless assumptions; by your logic, then that means almost all theorists; including Maciamo, are making assumptions too. You're contradicting yourself, and now you are in the midst of making more contradictions. Not only have you made baseless accusations; but you're making baseless assumptions as well. Man, you are terrible at this stuff.

There was no bluff. I just enjoy debating with people and telling them that they are wrong. But one thing I am detecting is, you're either very misinformed/delusional, or have a serious insecurity complex. lol

Melancon
24-02-15, 15:10
Of course there is, you did something in plain public view and then tried to claim you did not. Did you really think no one was going to call your bluff and check?A clubfoot is a metaphor for someone who is jealous or insecure and is out for defamation and character assassination; which is exactly what you are beguiling in your continuous ill-informed arguments with baseless assumptions and accusations.

I studied philosophy in college. Then I had an off-class teacher. I know logic better than you do. I am a soldier in the mental realm. Keep comin' at me though. :)

Drac II
24-02-15, 15:30
If I am making baseless assumptions; by your logic, then that means almost all theorists; including Maciamo, are making assumptions too. You're contradicting yourself, and now you are in the midst of making more contradictions. Not only have you made baseless accusations; but you're making baseless assumptions as well. Man, you are terrible at this stuff.

There was no bluff. I just enjoy debating with people and telling them that they are wrong. But one thing I am detecting is, you're either very misinformed/delusional, or have a serious insecurity complex. lol

You obviously have reading & comprehension problems, because from the very beginning several people have been coming to this thread and stating that what the OP wrote are speculations (whether about Phoenicians or Basques), and I think he is aware of it, even the language he sometimes uses ("probably") should have given you a hint.

The "contradictions" are the product of your imagination. In fact, the only contradictions are coming from your part.

There was a bluff ("check out Andalusian people on Google Images") and I called you out on it by actually checking it out and seeing your hilarious cherry-picking.

Then get another hobby because your "debating" skills are poor, to say the least. They consist mostly in making false, incorrect and/or exaggerated statements and then when confronted about it project your own insecurities & complexes upon others for having responded and put you in your place. Typical t-r-o-l-l tactics.

Drac II
24-02-15, 15:33
A clubfoot is a metaphor for someone who is jealous or insecure and is out for defamation and character assassination; which is exactly what you are beguiling in your continuous ill-informed arguments with baseless assumptions and accusations.

I studied philosophy in college. Then I had an off-class teacher. I know logic better than you do. I am a soldier in the mental realm. Keep comin' at me though. :)

You ought to know what it is, since it fits you like a glove.

You must have flunked those imaginary classes. Go back to school, kid. For real this time.

Alan
24-02-15, 15:35
I had to read so much crap in this thread that it created eye cancer. People talking about European vs "non European" Halogroups lol.

Melancon
24-02-15, 15:48
You ought to know what it is, since it fits you like a glove.

You must have flunked those imaginary classes. Go back to school, kid. For real this time.Kid??? Flunked? Imaginary classes? LOL.

I am in the same boat as Maciamo. If you have any ground on "logic" then explain to me how Q1b and J1 arrived in Southern Iberia? What is the alternative explanation here?

Melancon
24-02-15, 15:51
You obviously have reading & comprehension problems, because from the very beginning several people have been coming to this thread and stating that what the OP wrote are speculations (whether about Phoenicians or Basques), and I think he is aware of it, even the language he sometimes uses ("probably") should have given you a hint.

The "contradictions" are the product of your imagination. In fact, the only contradictions are coming from your part.

There was a bluff ("check out Andalusian people on Google Images") and I called you out on it by actually checking it out and seeing your hilarious cherry-picking.

Then get another hobby because your "debating" skills are poor, to say the least. They consist mostly in making false, incorrect and/or exaggerated statements and then when confronted about it project your own insecurities & complexes upon others for having responded and put you in your place. Typical t-r-o-l-l tactics.Self-projecting your own tendencies will not make you win an argument. You will win an argument over nothing; an imaginary argument; because you argue over nothing. There is no other explanation for how these haplogroups arrived. And again, I am not the one who surmised that Q1b was Phoenician; it was Maciamo. The owner of this website.

You are t-r-o-l-l-i-n-g and spamming this post; not I.

Melancon
24-02-15, 16:01
You obviously have reading & comprehension problems, because from the very beginning several people have been coming to this thread and stating that what the OP wrote are speculations (whether about Phoenicians or Basques), and I think he is aware of it, even the language he sometimes uses ("probably") should have given you a hint.

The "contradictions" are the product of your imagination. In fact, the only contradictions are coming from your part.

There was a bluff ("check out Andalusian people on Google Images") and I called you out on it by actually checking it out and seeing your hilarious cherry-picking.

Then get another hobby because your "debating" skills are poor, to say the least. They consist mostly in making false, incorrect and/or exaggerated statements and then when confronted about it project your own insecurities & complexes upon others for having responded and put you in your place. Typical t-r-o-l-l tactics.Until you can prove to me that J1 subclades entered South Iberia from Central Europe or the Balkans and not North Africa; your arguments will remain invalid...

Give it up guy.

Drac II
24-02-15, 16:03
Kid??? Flunked? Imaginary classes? LOL.

I am in the same boat as Maciamo. If you have any ground on "logic" then explain to me how Q1b and J1 arrived in Southern Iberia? What is the alternative explanation here?

The exact same ones as have been offered by others (and including "Maciamo" himself): prehistoric or ancient population movements. Example:

"Even Neolithic farmers appear to have come from two different sources, each bringing their own set of haplogroups and autosomal admixtures. A first Mediterranean route brought farmers of the Cardium Pottery culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardium_Pottery) from the Balkans and Italy. Soon afterwards, La Almagra Pottery culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Almagra_pottery) developed in Andalusia, apparently emerging from the present-day Maghreb. This event would explain the presence of both Northwest African and Red Sea DNA, such as Y-haplogroup E-M81, J1 and T, across most of southern and western Iberia."

Melancon
24-02-15, 16:05
The exact same ones as have been offered by others (and including "Maciamo" himself): prehistoric or ancient population movements. Example:

"Even Neolithic farmers appear to have come from two different sources, each bringing their own set of haplogroups and autosomal admixtures. A first Mediterranean route brought farmers of the Cardium Pottery culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardium_Pottery) from the Balkans and Italy. Soon afterwards, La Almagra Pottery culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Almagra_pottery) developed in Andalusia, apparently emerging from the present-day Maghreb. This event would explain the presence of both Northwest African and Red Sea DNA, such as Y-haplogroup E-M81, J1 and T, across most of southern and western Iberia."The Maghreb is not Europe; it's North Africa. So right there you just proved yourself wrong, and me and Maciamo correct. Lmao.

Drac II
24-02-15, 16:06
Until you can prove to me that J1 subclades entered South Iberia from Central Europe or the Balkans and not North Africa; your arguments will remain invalid...

Give it up guy.

And I suppose you imagine that the J1 in Central Europe and the Balkans are local developments instead of also having their origins in the Middle East. You give it up, guy.

Melancon
24-02-15, 16:10
And I suppose you imagine that the J1 in Central Europe and the Balkans are local developments instead of also having their origins in the Middle East. You give it up, guy.No; they both descend from the same ancestor. That is correct. But there were splits. That's why they are called subclades.

Haplogroup Q exists in Mongoloids; Native Americans, but it is also found in people from the Levant and Near East, such as Lebanese, Syrians, Ashkenazi Jews. These are all people of different races.

And there are people in Sub-Saharan Africa that carry R1b-V88. Doesn't mean that they are Europeans.

Drac II
24-02-15, 16:10
The Maghreb is not Europe; it's North Africa. So right there you just proved yourself wrong, and me and Maciamo correct. Lmao.

Learn to read: he is telling you that they can easily have come from a PREHISTORIC source, not necessarily from historical people like "Jews" or "Arabs" who did not exist back in those times. That's the point. Also, I get the impression that you imagine that the same haplogroups found elsewhere in Europe are actually local developments instead of having come from elsewhere too at some point. The only one proving himself wrong is you.

Angela
24-02-15, 16:15
If these ad hominem comments continue there will be consequences.

Melancon
24-02-15, 16:18
Learn to read: he is telling you that they can easily have come from a PREHISTORIC source, not necessarily from historical people like "Jews" or "Arabs" who did not exist back in those times. That's the point. Also, I get the impression that you imagine that the same haplogroups found elsewhere in Europe are actually local developments instead of having come from elsewhere too at some point. The only one proving himself wrong is you.Um, no? LOL. I just stated that there are Africans with R1b and Europeans with R1b...

You keep coming up with baseless predetermined assumptions; and then the insults. But you really give me something to laugh about because you are such a pitiful and injudicious joke.

Melancon
24-02-15, 16:19
If these ad hominem comments continue there will be consequences.I was thinking it would be wise to dismiss myself. I apologize Angela.

Drac II
24-02-15, 16:22
Self-projecting your own tendencies will not make you win an argument. You will win an argument over nothing; an imaginary argument; because you argue over nothing. There is no other explanation for how these haplogroups arrived. And again, I am not the one who surmised that Q1b was Phoenician; it was Maciamo. The owner of this website.

You are t-r-o-l-l-i-n-g and spamming this post; not I.

Those are your tactics, no one else's here, you are the one who started using them after your t-r-o-l-l-i-n-g got confronted. And Maciamo is actually just offering possible explanations, not definitive answers. He often uses language that clearly indicate this, like "Q1b1a1 (L272.1): found in Sicily (probably Phoenician)"

Drac II
24-02-15, 16:27
Um, no? LOL. I just stated that there are Africans with R1b and Europeans with R1b...

You keep coming up with baseless predetermined assumptions; and then the insults. But you really give me something to laugh about because you are such a pitiful and injudicious joke.

No, I am just going by what your strange posts imply. You seem to think that J1 in southern Iberia is "African" or Middle Eastern, but then the one in Central Europe and the Balkans must be something else totally different.

Melancon
24-02-15, 16:29
Those are your tactics, no one else's here, you are the one who started using them after your t-r-o-l-l-i-n-g got confronted. And Maciamo is actually just offering possible explanations, not definitive answers. He often uses language that clearly indicate this, like "Q1b1a1 (L272.1): found in Sicily (probably Phoenician)"Once again, I am not t-r-o-l-l-i-n-g; you are making baseless accusations against me. And as I stated before; you look like someone out for character defamation/assassination. So please, let's end it here.

You can believe your own reality in your own mind; but it will always be fantasy Drac II. I am leaving this thread now.

Drac II
24-02-15, 16:33
Once again, I am not t-r-o-l-l-i-n-g; you are making baseless accusations against me. And as I stated before; you look like someone out for character defamation/assassination. So please, let's end it here.

You can believe your own reality in your own mind; but it will always be fantasy Drac II. I am leaving this thread now.

Anyone can easily see by simply going back in the thread who the troublemaker here has been all along. Everyone was debating and commenting normally until you arrived and started posting strange claims and comments, which look like they are designed to provoke others.

Melancon
24-02-15, 16:53
Anyone can easily see by simply going back in the thread who the troublemaker here has been all along. Everyone was debating and commenting normally until you arrived and started posting strange claims and comments, which look like they are designed to provoke others.Baseless accusation, assumptions in an attempt to character defame, insecurity, contradiction, self-projecting hypocrisy, condescending ad hominem personal attacks, imitation of my words, refusal to acknowledge evidence given, erroneously using someone else's work (Maciamo) in order to further your illegitimate view, are just a few of your "traits". And accusing me of being a threat, taking things personally attacking me, never staying on topic.



I am leaving this thread now and am putting you on ignore.

Angela
24-02-15, 17:04
I was thinking it would be wise to dismiss myself. I apologize Angela.

You were not the only or even the worst offender. That doesn't of course mean that I agree with your analysis, as should be clear from my own posts.


Drac:Anyone can easily see by simply going back in the thread who the troublemaker here has been all along. Everyone was debating and commenting normally until you arrived and started posting strange claims and comments, which look like they are designed to provoke others.

I think there is enough blame to go around. I would also think that the fact that every time someone mentions anything to do with Spain that has any possible connection to the Near East there is immediately a post to the effect that, well, there are "others" who have "more" might be seen as comments meant to provoke "others" who might have a similar "Near Eastern" phobia. Or, those people might simply be tired of the deflection and lack of logic of it all.

Regardless, watch your comments.

Drac II
25-02-15, 01:41
You were not the only or even the worst offender. That doesn't of course mean that I agree with your analysis, as should be clear from my own posts.



I think there is enough blame to go around. I would also think that the fact that every time someone mentions anything to do with Spain that has any possible connection to the Near East there is immediately a post to the effect that, well, there are "others" who have "more" might be seen as comments meant to provoke "others" who might have a similar "Near Eastern" phobia. Or, those people might simply be tired of the deflection and lack of logic of it all.

Regardless, watch your comments.

Like I said to him, go back in the thread to plainly see who started the "X has more of this or that, therefore they are not really Europeans" claims. It sure as heck was not me or anyone else who started it, but the actual troublemaker in this thread. We were merely responding to the incorrect claims and manipulations of the provocateur.

Sile
25-02-15, 18:37
http://phoenicia.org/colonies.html

Johannes
02-03-15, 18:45
I just came back to this thread but it seems it has ended. Anyway, Melancon, I apologize for calling you a "blockhead." I made my comment under the influence of a few ales after coming back from a party. :-) However, your comments seemed to me very naive or misguided, especially when dealing with the Basques. Making such claims that Basques are Northern European is very immature. Your knowledge of Basques seem to come from watching You-Tube videos, reading some papers, and meeting a few Basques in Louisiana. But I doubt that videos -- which are made in a highly selective manner, that show mostly models, athletes, actors, or people of mixed appearance -- are the actual representatives of the whole population. I lived for 16 years among Basques in Idaho. Boise has the highest concentration of Basques outside of Spain and France. I don't blame you for thinking Basques are like the Irish or something. I used to think the same like you: for example, many "Basques" I met in Boise looked white or northern European. But after asking them their real heritage they almost always said "1/2-Basque" or "1/4 Basque." However, when the Basques came from Spain during their festivals I noticed they looked different. For example, most were short, stocky and hairy, with dark-curly or wavy hair and dark-eyes, swarthy (although not all), and with prominent noses. Hardly your typical Northern European. I even asked many mixed and pure Basques if they considered themselves to be 'white" and almost all denied it and said "Basque." The women were also not typical Northern European. Most were short, dark-haired, and stocky, with olive complexions. Yes some were fair skinned and eyed but this is common among Mediterranean peoples. Thus to me "pure" Basques looked more Mediterranean. Maybe I exaggerated by saying they looked like Jews, but I am not the only one. During the Middle Ages the Castilians suspected the Basques of being secret Jews and even a Basque author wrote a book claiming the Basques the descendants the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel. Thus I believe Basques are European. But so are the Andalusians.

My theory is that Basques (along with the Iberians -- probably the same people) were in fact Neolithic peoples who came from the Middle East around 6000 BCE. This explains their language, strange customs, and phenotype. The reason why many Basques males have a lot of R1b (but women have been found to have considerable Middle Eastern K, T, U) is that the Celts exterminated a large amount of the male population and raped the women during their invasion of Iberia (there are only two entrances into Iberia -- through the Basque Country and Catalonia). After the Celts left for Castile, Galicia, Portugal and other pasts (however many must have stayed and become "Basque") the Basque women educated the children and thus the Basque people retained their Basque language to the present time. This also explains why some Basques are swarthy and some are fair.

I think you picked the wrong area for making a claim that Andalusians are not European. You should have picked the southern Italians, Sicilians, or even the Greeks. They have much more E1b1, J1, J2, G, than any other Europeans. In fact they range from 35%-60% non European DNA, whereas Andalusians peak at 20%. As for the Phoenicians, they made a negligible contribution to Spanish DNA. Phoenicians/Carthaginians were only traders and never truly occupied the Iberian peninsula. After the Romans defeated Carthage during the Punic Wars most if not all of the Carthaginian males were exterminated and the women raped and enslaved (the Romans were a ruthless people. "Carthago delenda est" was not just a threat). So whatever contributions they made would have been drastically reduced.

The only candidates to this DNA you were mentioning were the Neolithic Farmers and Greek/Roman colonizers. We don't now how any heolithic farmers entered Iberia but during the Roman Empire a ton of mixed Romans settled there. The so-called "Moors" were mostly Ibero-Roman Muslims (90%) and Berbers. Since Berbers are 70-85% E1b1, then they could not have increased the J1 or J2 in Andalusia. J2 is Greek, Roman, Armenian and J1 is mostly Jewish/Arab. So there was mixture in Andalusia with the Berbers, Jews, and Arabs but not as significant compared to Italy, Greece, and the Balkans, who had larger neolithic populations and later and more recently Jews, Arabs, Turks, Egyptians, and even Blacks. Even though the Italians and Greeks have more non European DNA than Andalusians they are still European.

Alan
02-03-15, 21:33
People still throwing Haplogroups and aDNA wildely through the room and try to explain swarthy or dark features with ancient populations, they seem to not know of enough. :bigsmile:

Some people really need to take some time off and read through all the recent scientific papers which appeared the last 2-3 years.


Basques look as much "North European" as Andalusians look Tuareg.

Expredel
03-03-15, 06:20
My theory is that Basques (along with the Iberians -- probably the same people) were in fact Neolithic peoples who came from the Middle East around 6000 BCE. This explains their language, strange customs, and phenotype. The reason why many Basques males have a lot of R1b (but women have been found to have considerable Middle Eastern K, T, U) is that the Celts exterminated a large amount of the male population and raped the women during their invasion of Iberia (there are only two entrances into Iberia -- through the Basque Country and Catalonia). After the Celts left for Castile, Galicia, Portugal and other pasts (however many must have stayed and become "Basque") the Basque women educated the children and thus the Basque people retained their Basque language to the present time. This also explains why some Basques are swarthy and some are fair.
Raids are not a perfect explanation. It's an option that R1b is more potent than the original Basque Y haplogroup. So it could be a simple matter of natural selection. This would explain higher R1b in the Basques without being the original Basque language.

Johannes
03-03-15, 13:17
Raids are not a perfect explanation. It's an option that R1b is more potent than the original Basque Y haplogroup. So it could be a simple matter of natural selection. This would explain higher R1b in the Basques without being the original Basque language.

That is true. I forgot to add that during the Muslim occupation millions of Ibero/Roman/Celtic/Gothic people deserted all of central Iberia and settled in packed areas. So the introduction of R1b and I would have impacted the earlier populations in the Basque Country, Aragon, and Catalonia. For example, the Goths settled right next to the Basques, Galicians, and in Extremadura; while the Swabians and Alans settled near Galicia and Leon. So alal these millions of persons would have dramatically altered the Basque DNA. As a matter of fact in Boise, Idaho, I noticed that Basques almost always intermarried with the white population. Only very few Basques were real Basques. So we can infer that the same situation happened when the Gothic and Celto/Iberian refugees settled in the Pyrenees.