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View Full Version : PCA trends of Europeans and Near Easterners



LeBrok
22-02-15, 21:03
There are interesting trends visible on PCA plot. Might be useful in determining historical population movement and mixing.

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https://dl-web.dropbox.com/get/photos/Eupedia%20pictures/PCA%20pulls.png?_subject_uid=3695573&w=AAAo_awTo82iXLjOsZ-Zrb9tu-9ForxTGa2iapL09asqoQ

LeBrok
22-02-15, 21:04
There are two distinct bridges between Europe and Near East, and I think 3rd is missing.

There is the main and massive bridge through East Side of Mediterranean, Greeks, Armenians, Jews, Tuscans, S. Italians and few others. Through early farmers, Greek and Roman empires and very energetic populations of Phoenicians and Jews.

Second bridge is smaller, and was strengthen possibly by Turks, Huns, Bulgars and other population from Scythian multicultural territory of steppe pastoralists. It connects Turkey with Bulgarians, Hungarians and Albanians.

There are strong hints of a third bridge. Bridge through Caucasian connection of Near EAst to Eastern Europe. I placed the circle where the bridge should be, from Moravians to Adygei, containing Hungarian sample of Iron Age Hungarian and even ancient Kostenki dude. Why is it missing?
- Lack of Russian or Russian minorities, and East Ukrainian samples from North of Caucasus are? Were they wiped out during the Great Migration period, or Mongol invasion, or Stalin ethnic policies in Soviet Union?

If I'm not mistaken, this missing link was discussed by Alan in his thread. Just can't find it to link the discussions.

7112

https://dl-web.dropbox.com/get/photos/Eupedia%20pictures/PCA%20bridges.png?_subject_uid=3695573&w=AABJEPGdCA39VZKZF2rGHLK3VADsVIEG8IMSja10x5c8mA

LeBrok
22-02-15, 21:08
Here are original plots. Appreciation goes to authors of this paper: Massive migration from the steppe is a sourcefor Indo-European languages in Europe (http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf) by W.Haak and I.Lazaridis.
Also heavily discussed on Eupedia here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30878-Massive-migration-from-the-steppe-is-a-source-for-Indo-European-languages-in-Europe).


Ancient Population

7113
https://dl-web.dropbox.com/get/camera%20uploads/Eupedia%20pictures/PCA%20distances%20of%20ancients.png?_subject_uid=3 695573&w=AAAwcu-hXN9vrOMmh7u3c_FJZfmk0cObQwsSYnDL3HZ7QQ

LeBrok
22-02-15, 21:09
7114

https://dl-web.dropbox.com/get/camera%20uploads/Eupedia%20pictures/PCA%20distances.png?_subject_uid=3695573&w=AADp50OrpzOSk2bjqzHcQnvNpjvELjNcLUt_aKB8smuaTQ

bicicleur
23-02-15, 09:59
can't open any of your plots (4)
links seem to be broken or I am missing some software

LeBrok
23-02-15, 16:48
can't open any of your plots (4)
links seem to be broken or I am missing some software
Thanks for telling me that. They show completely perfect on my screen. I was using my Drop Box for these pictures, as a new method. I will look into this problem tonight.

Drac II
23-02-15, 18:02
can't open any of your plots (4)
links seem to be broken or I am missing some software

Same here, and it does not seem to be a browser problem, I tried it with Google Chrome and Internet Explorer, they don't show up in either.

Eochaidh
24-02-15, 02:09
The error from Dropbox indicates that this is not a public URL. Rather it is only view-able by the owner, LeBrok.

There is usually a public URL to cut and paste.

Error (403)

It seems you don't belong here! You should probably sign in (https://www.dropbox.com/login). Check out ourHelp Center (https://www.dropbox.com/help) and forums (https://forums.dropbox.com/) for help, or head back to home (https://www.dropbox.com/home).

Alan
24-02-15, 04:21
There are two distinct bridges between Europe and Near East, and I think 3rd is missing.

There is the main and massive bridge through East Side of Mediterranean, Greeks, Armenians, Jews, Tuscans, S. Italians and few others. Through early farmers, Greek and Roman empires and very energetic populations of Phoenicians and Jews.

Second bridge is smaller, and was strengthen possibly by Turks, Huns, Bulgars and other population from Scythian multicultural territory of steppe pastoralists. It connects Turkey with Bulgarians, Hungarians and Albanians.

There are strong hints of a third bridge. Bridge through Caucasian connection of Near EAst to Eastern Europe. I placed the circle where the bridge should be, from Moravians to Adygei, containing Hungarian sample of Iron Age Hungarian and even ancient Kostenki dude. Why is it missing?
- Lack of Russian or Russian minorities, and East Ukrainian samples from North of Caucasus are? Were they wiped out during the Great Migration period, or Mongol invasion, or Stalin ethnic policies in Soviet Union?

If I'm not mistaken, this missing link was discussed by Alan in his thread. Just can't find it to link the discussions.

https://dl-web.dropbox.com/get/camera%20uploads/Eupedia%20pictures/PCA%20bridges.png?_subject_uid=3695573&w=AACndwAV5YkWrqbCWVhfUFmuHZAsqTnW_v36vcSdt6JzQg


It's here => http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30706-Europe-West-and-South_Central-Asia-and-the-unnatural-


I argued that first the Turkic and later Slavic migration created the gap by replacing the North Iranic tribes who would have been genetically more akine to Andronovo and Yamna. And what we see yearly from ancient Iron/Bronze Age samples is that there must have been populations in the Steppes which were in between North Caucasians and Mordovians and Russians closing this gap.

I also don't belive that That Turks, Huns and Bulgars strengthened the bridge between the Balkans and Anatolia, rather the opposite. They forced a large portion of the Anatolian Greeks out to Greece and brought additional Irano_Turkic admixture into Central and Western Anatolia what created again a gap.

LeBrok
25-02-15, 05:46
The error from Dropbox indicates that this is not a public URL. Rather it is only view-able by the owner, LeBrok.

There is usually a public URL to cut and paste.

Error (403)

It seems you don't belong here! You should probably sign in (https://www.dropbox.com/login). Check out ourHelp Center (https://www.dropbox.com/help) and forums (https://forums.dropbox.com/) for help, or head back to home (https://www.dropbox.com/home). Thanks, I'm looking into it, though I didn't have much time to find a solution yet, so for now I attached images as uploaded files.

LeBrok
25-02-15, 06:22
It's here => http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30706-Europe-West-and-South_Central-Asia-and-the-unnatural-


I argued that first the Turkic and later Slavic migration created the gap by replacing the North Iranic tribes who would have been genetically more akine to Andronovo and Yamna. And what we see yearly from ancient Iron/Bronze Age samples is that there must have been populations in the Steppes which were in between North Caucasians and Mordovians and Russians closing this gap. I agree that there is a broken connection, however I'm not convinced that that Slavic and Turkic people could completely wipe out these supposed populations. Historically there is no record that Sarmatians were completely killed or chased away. They must have been assimilated. Suraly, all these historical migrations diluted this ancient bridge, plus ethnic engineering of Soviet/Stalin era did the rest. Tatars could have been mixed with locals heavily there, and all were removed by Stalin. I think, once we have more samples of Russians north off Caucasus, perhaps some from secluded villages, we should be getting the connection more visible.


I also don't belive that That Turks, Huns and Bulgars strengthened the bridge between the Balkans and Anatolia, rather the opposite. They forced a large portion of the Anatolian Greeks out to Greece and brought additional Irano_Turkic admixture into Central and Western Anatolia what created again a gap.
I'm not sure about that. Look at the main bridge in post 2. Greeks are more connected to Druze and Jews populations than to Anatolian/Turks. Anatolian connection stretch to the European side and butts to Bulgarians, and right behind them are Hungarians. This could be a sign of ancient neolithic/copper age migration from Anatolia, and Turkic/Bulgar/Hunic connection is coincidental. Otherwise it is hard to explain this strong pull of Turks towards Bulgaria and Hungary, but not Greece, only by excesses of Ottoman Empire and Turks.