6000 yo EHG pile dwellings near lakes and rivers in NW Russia : R1a1 -M17

B

bicicleur 2

Regular Member
Messages
6,367
Reaction score
1,401
Points
113
quote by Vladimir Semargl :

Quote from another discussion on FB:
Eight of the sixteen genotyped from skeletal remains of the Northern Dvina were R1a-M17. Age 6,000 years.
"R1a1-M17 (М417 не тестировалась, но весьма вероятна) найдена у охотника-собирателя в верховьях Западной Двины возрастом 6000 лет назад.
Сведения об этом факте опубликованы (точнее сказать -похоронены) в региональном археологическом сборнике, который ни поп-, ни прочие генетики без специальной наводки в жизни искать не станут: Археология озерных поселений IV—II тыс. до н. э.: хронология культур и природно- климатические ритмы. — СПб.: ООО «Периферия», 2014. Статья: Чекунова Е.М., Ярцева Н.В., Чекунов М.К., Мазуркевич А.Н. Первые результаты генотипирования коренных жителей и человеческих костных останков из археологических памятников Верхнего Подвинья. С. 287-294. Таблица на с. 294."

can anybody translate ?

these are R1a1a-M17
one step further down the tree compared to the Karelian EHG typed R1a1* in lake Onega, 5500-5000 BC

and link : https://www.academia.edu/9452168/Ar...azurkevich_A._Polkovnikova_M._Dolbunova_E._ed

is this the comb-ware culture which is beleived to be related with Kelteminar?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit–Comb_Ware_culture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelteminar_culture

if all this is true, another piece of the puzzle is solved
 
i have more info :
there were 4 x R1a1 and 2 x N1c

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=849637105099443&set=p.849637105099443&type=1&theater

i have allways beleived N1c brought pottery from the Amur basin (east-Siberia) to Europe
my guess is now :
Kelteminar was N1c
they mixed with R1a1 HG to form comb-ware culture

also note : 7000 yo Khvalynsk culture had the same type of pottery, it is the steppe pottery from which Yamnaya, BB and corded ware pottery was derived
 
Well, it may solve one piece of the puzzle, but it opens up another can of worms.

The sample(s) are supposedly mtDna "H" right? So, they went from Smolensk to the Caucasus to find brides? What did these Caucasus women have? Or what did theirs not have? I'm sorry to be flippant, but this doesn't make sense to me. It couldn't have been bride exchange because I'm sure there were no farmers up there. That might make sense somehow on the Steppe right near the Caucasus, but up there?

Maybe it's not "H"? Some of these academic studies are still just using HVRI.

If it is H, is it possible the movement was from the Caspian/Iran? If that's the case, then the autosomes should show some "Near Eastern", by this time, right? But we have the other R1a hunter-gatherer who had none, correct?

Could it just have been a slight diffusion from the Caucasus that got washed out in a couple of hundred years?

O.K. I officially don't get it. :)
 
They're R. We don't know if they are H because they weren't tested for H, or even R0 and HV SNPs.
 
who says they went all the way to the Caucasus to find brides and come back?
maybe they were a new arrival from the Caucasus or the steppe and allready had their brides with them
they were not the descendants of the Karelian EHG, who was R1a1* and who didn't build stilt houses (or did they, I don't know ?)
they were confirmed R1a1a-M17, and maybe even R1a1a1-M417 as they were not tested for M417
they were not corded ware either, these were R1a-L664 or Z-283 and came 1000 years later with wheels, but M17 was ancestral to them
there were simply multiple R1a expansions from the Caucasus area
the Karelian EHG were maybe the 1st of these expansions
these guys here were a later expansion
the corded ware R1a were even later
and the latest were the Indo-Iranian R1a-Z93
all the same family but not the same people
just a theory of course, but right now this looks the most likely to me

what I find even more interesting is N1c coming in for the first time
 
Angela said:
Well, it may solve one piece of the puzzle, but it opens up another can of worms.

The sample(s) are supposedly mtDna "H" right? So, they went from Smolensk to the Caucasus to find brides? What did these Caucasus women have? Or what did theirs not have? I'm sorry to be flippant, but this doesn't make sense to me. It couldn't have been bride exchange because I'm sure there were no farmers up there. That might make sense somehow on the Steppe right near the Caucasus, but up there?

Maybe it's not "H"? Some of these academic studies are still just using HVRI.

If it is H, is it possible the movement was from the Caspian/Iran? If that's the case, then the autosomes should show some "Near Eastern", by this time, right? But we have the other R1a hunter-gatherer who had none, correct?

Could it just have been a slight diffusion from the Caucasus that got washed out in a couple of hundred years?

O.K. I officially don't get it. :)
Click to expand...


My initial believe that ANE came from South_Central Asia or Iran seems getting stronger.

What if these EHG guys with R1a came directly from South_Central Asia or through the Caucasus together with mtDNA H?

The bride exchange theory gets more and more impossible. It was already impossible to me earlier. But it gets more impossible with time. There is no way EHG from Northwest Russia went all the way down to Caucasus to catch some brides.
 
Well, I walked right into that one, didn't I? You could have spared me the blushes. :ashamed2: I'm obviously clueless. How could I have forgotten the male preoccupation with them? Now all is clear.:)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ike
There's a confirmed H from Mesolithic Karelia and in the same site the R1a1* carrying Karelia_EHG from Haak 2015 was samplyed. This is evidence H(and C1g) existed in Europe free of near eastern and east Asian admixture. It leaves room for some non-U lineages to be of EHG, SHG, WHG, etc. origin.

Also, did people of near eastern origin ever actually settle in Russia or did the HGs evolve culturally? Maybe their near eastern ancestry is via a female market. As crude as that sounds they have existed and do exist. Women of near eastern or European farmer origin could have been sold by their men and traded across Russia. That's just a shot in the dark, I know nothing of the pre-historic steppes.
 
When I watch an interesting documentary about last of hunter gatherers in Amazonia, by account of these HGs the theft of women and fire was the main problems they faced from other tribes.
 
LeBrok said:
When I watch an interesting documentary about last of hunter gatherers in Amazonia, by account of these HGs the theft of women and fire was the main problems they faced from other tribes.
Click to expand...

those were the days
 
bicicleur said:
those were the days
Click to expand...

It was actually rather harsh. The first British that came into contact with aboriginals were appalled at the treatment of women by aboriginal men. They were treated worse than slaves. (Source: The Original Australians, by Josephine Flood)

On the theft of women and thecontinuous warfare and violence of HGs in the Amazone one should readNapoleon Chagnons workhttps://www.google.nl/search?q=cont...HvGI-XavrRgagB&ved=0CBwQBSgA&biw=1838&bih=942.
 
the image that has been cultivated for decades is of European colonists invading and destroying peaceful societies living in perfect harmony with nature
blaming the west for whatever goes wrong in this world and trying to make us feel guilty (and some things go wrong)
 
bicicleur said:
those were the days
Click to expand...

If this was an attempt at humor, I don't find the idea that a world where women were routinely kidnapped, raped, and treated like chattel was the "good old days" at all funny.
 
epoch said:
It was actually rather harsh. The first British that came into contact with aboriginals were appalled at the treatment of women by aboriginal men. They were treated worse than slaves. (Source: The Original Australians, by Josephine Flood)

On the theft of women and thecontinuous warfare and violence of HGs in the Amazone one should readNapoleon Chagnons work.
Click to expand...

I haven't read the paper which is the subject of this thread in its entirety, but unless I'm mistaken people who have read it report that the women in this group of hunter gatherers from what is now Russia were severely malnourished in comparison to the men and showed signs of extreme violence. There is nothing to be lauded here.
 
Fire Haired14 said:
Also, did people of near eastern origin ever actually settle in Russia or did the HGs evolve culturally? As crude as that sounds they have existed and do exist. Women of near eastern or European farmer origin could have been sold by their men and traded across Russia. That's just a shot in the dark, I know nothing of the pre-historic steppes.
Click to expand...
:smash:


Yep since we have 100% evidence that farmers sold their females. For what actually? What had the H&G they could give the farmers for exchange.

Are people now losing totally the sense for reality. Are you even aware how wrong these theories get over time? Bro there is a huge distance between NW Russia and Western Asia. So People went on a month long journey through unknown and therefore dangerous terrain just to sell females:LOL:

And these female market must have been huge.


How about to think that EHG is not really an ancestral people but just a mixture of WHG and ANE (What they are) and R1a/R1b and their H Haplogroups came together with ANE to NW Russia via South Central Asia or even somewhere in North Caucasus?

Of course not it is too simple better expect some female slave market where farmers took their brides to exchange it with the rich H&G of Russia :LOL:

And to the bride kidnapping story. bride Kidnapping works with other tribes in close range. Never have I heard of bride kidnapping from people living over a huge distance.


My theory, EHG = Western H&G who mixed with South_Central Asian/Iran ANE H&G and became EHG. At the end of the day even in modern times ANE peaks in this region so we can only assume how strong this component was in ancient times. Those ANE guys already had mtDNA H from Iran.

Don't forget 43000 year old Kostenki already had Basal Eurasian genes and was autosomally closer to populations of Western Asia. There was a never ending geneflow from the the Near East to everywhere around the world.
 
Last edited:
Angela said:
If this was an attempt at humor, I don't find the idea that a world where women were routinely kidnapped, raped, and treated like chattel was the "good old days" at all funny.
Click to expand...

read my post above yours, which was in reaction to the post of epoch , and judge for yourself

besides that, I think that the males of the tribes that were being raided and that were unable to defend themselves against the raiders were probably even worse of than the females ; the winner simply took it all
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

This thread has been viewed 43589 times.

Back
Top