PDA

View Full Version : New map of the Atlantic admixture (Eurogenes K15)



Maciamo
04-03-15, 14:08
The autosomal analysis of Haak et al 2015 samples (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30940-Autosomal-analysis-of-Yamna-Corded-Ware-and-Bell-Beaker-samples) showed that Mesolithic Russian lacked the Atlantic admixture from Eurogenes K15 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19c_bZjUV_RouKyGyLHmMDw57WwAVabXFJOaso_gcuRE/edit#gid=1872836177) now found throughout Europe, even among Uralic speakers (Finns, Saami, Mordovians, Udmurts). Some Yamna genomes also lacked it, while others carried only a few per cents. Considering the major genetic impact that Yamna people had on the European population, it made me wonder who could have spread that Atlantic admixture after the Indo-European migrations.

The Atlantic admixture is most common in regions associated with the Megalithic culture, including the Bell Beaker phenomenon. But its range is much wider than that.

I have a hunch that it is linked to the diffusion of mtDNA V, which appears to have originated in Southwest Europe during the Mesolithic, but has never been found to date in any ancient sample (possibly in Neolithic Iberia in samples that were tested only for HVR1 and HVR2 and cannot distinguish between HV, H and V). There is also a strong correlation with mt-haplogroups H1 and H3 (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_H_mtDNA.shtml#distribution), hence the choice of colour for the map.

As you can see the so-called Atlantic admixture peaks in the Basque and neighbouring populations, followed by the Irish, Welsh and Scots. But apart from that it isn't really centred on the Atlantic. Galicians have less of it than Danes and North Germans. The high frequency in Sardinia, but much lower frequency in South Italy and the Balkans indicate a Mesolithic Western European ancestry.


http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Atlantic-admixture.png


The Atlantic admixture appears to be a hybrid of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers and Neolithic farmers. All Mesolithic and Neolithic samples from Western Europe had about 25% of it. The only exception is for Mesolithic HG from Sweden (Motala) who had only 10%.



Prehistoric samples

Atlantic admixture



Mesolithic La Braña (Asturias, Spain)
27.3%


Mesolithic Loscbour (Luxembourg)
29.5%


Neolithic farmer from Stuttgart (LBK culture)
23.2%


Ötzi the Iceman (Chalcolithic farmer from the Alps)
25.5%


Gökhem2 (Swedish Neolithic farmer)
27.7%


Motala12 (Mesolithic HG from Sweden)
10.1%



What is surprising is that the modern frequencies have hardly changed at all in the last 7000 years in all these regions (Sweden being intermediary between the two samples, but closer to the Neolithic), despite the Indo-European invasions.

On the other hand, the Atlantic admixture appears to have spread eastward since the Bronze Age, as it was virtually absent from Russia even 4000 years ago.

There hasn't been any major historical migrations from west to east in Europe. It has always been the other way round. Therefore the most likely explanation for its diffusion eastward is by intermarriage between neighbours (on the scale of several millennia) and minor migrations like that of medieval Germans to Poland, Romania and the Volga, or Swedish Vikings to Eastern Europe.

Melancon
04-03-15, 14:25
Really neat. Just researched my genome and came back with 30.06% Atlantic admixture using K15. About as much as the French and English populations. No surprise there.

Armoricain
04-03-15, 15:04
Thanks Maciamo for this map.


I think that the level of Atlantic is higher in Lower Normandy > 30 %
Almost the same as in Lower Brittany

Maciamo
04-03-15, 16:44
Thanks Maciamo for this map.


I think that the level of Atlantic is higher in Lower Normandy > 30 %
Almost the same as in Lower Brittany

Thanks for letting me know. I'll update the map.

Expredel
04-03-15, 20:33
I have a hunch that it is linked to the diffusion of mtDNA V, which appears to have originated in Southwest Europe during the Mesolithic, but has never been found to date in any ancient sample (possibly in Neolithic Iberia in samples that were tested only for HVR1 and HVR2 and cannot distinguish between HV, H and V). There is also a strong correlation with mt-haplogroups H1 and H3, hence the choice of colour for the map.

As you can see the so-called Atlantic admixture peaks in the Basque and neighbouring populations, followed by the Irish, Welsh and Scots. But apart from that it isn't really centred on the Atlantic. Galicians have less of it than Danes and North Germans. The high frequency in Sardinia, but much lower frequency in South Italy and the Balkans indicate a Mesolithic Western European ancestry.

Haplogroup V peaks in North West Africa and Finland. So that once against suggests a North African route of R1b. Most traces of this migration would have been erased by the desertification of the Sahara. An eastward diffusion can be explained by a large North African population with Egyptian technology pouring into Iberia.

If your map is including haplogroup V your data is definitely questionable for Morocco. Of course all current maps suffer from poor sample size but it seems to me the 23andme data is the most objective.

Alan
04-03-15, 20:46
This Atlantic component is definitely post Bronze age merge of pred ENF with some WHG.

Fire Haired14
04-03-15, 23:49
This test is based on modern people. What ancient people score should be taken as a sign that they share sometype of relation to the modern people it exists in. Atlantic being as popular in La Brana-1 as in modern Spanish means almost nothing. There is no Eurogenes K15 Atlantic continuation. I know you know this Maciamo.

MOESAN
05-03-15, 00:28
Haplogroup V peaks in North West Africa and Finland. So that once against suggests a North African route of R1b. Most traces of this migration would have been erased by the desertification of the Sahara. An eastward diffusion can be explained by a large North African population with Egyptian technology pouring into Iberia.

If your map is including haplogroup V your data is definitely questionable for Morocco. Of course all current maps suffer from poor sample size but it seems to me the 23andme data is the most objective.

please, mt DNA is not Y DNA and the distributions of mt-V and Y-R1b are not of the same scale - Y-R1b in western Europe is not R-V88 descendant too -
HERE MACIAMO SPEAKS OF AUTOSOMES DNA

MOESAN
05-03-15, 00:33
This test is based on modern people. What ancient people score should be taken as a sign that they share sometype of relation to the modern people it exists in. Atlantic being as popular in La Brana-1 as in modern Spanish means almost nothing. There is no Eurogenes K15 Atlantic continuation. I know you know this Maciamo.

If I understand you well, there is not gain to compare ANE or WHG in modern populations because ANE or WHG are ancient...? sharing is sharing, the only question is what elements of the diverse poolings are shared and if the ancient region of highest weight of a component was the today correspondant region, it's my point -

Twilight
05-03-15, 09:28
The autosomal analysis of Haak et al 2015 samples (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30940-Autosomal-analysis-of-Yamna-Corded-Ware-and-Bell-Beaker-samples) showed that Mesolithic Russian lacked the Atlantic admixture from Eurogenes K15 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19c_bZjUV_RouKyGyLHmMDw57WwAVabXFJOaso_gcuRE/edit#gid=1872836177) now found throughout Europe, even among Uralic speakers (Finns, Saami, Mordovians, Udmurts). Some Yamna genomes also lacked it, while others carried only a few per cents. Considering the major genetic impact that Yamna people had on the European population, it made me wonder who could have spread that Atlantic admixture after the Indo-European migrations.

The Atlantic admixture is most common in regions associated with the Megalithic culture, including the Bell Beaker phenomenon. But its range is much wider than that.

I have a hunch that it is linked to the diffusion of mtDNA V, which appears to have originated in Southwest Europe during the Mesolithic, but has never been found to date in any ancient sample (possibly in Neolithic Iberia in samples that were tested only for HVR1 and HVR2 and cannot distinguish between HV, H and V). There is also a strong correlation with mt-haplogroups H1 and H3 (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_H_mtDNA.shtml#distribution), hence the choice of colour for the map.

As you can see the so-called Atlantic admixture peaks in the Basque and neighbouring populations, followed by the Irish, Welsh and Scots. But apart from that it isn't really centred on the Atlantic. Galicians have less of it than Danes and North Germans. The high frequency in Sardinia, but much lower frequency in South Italy and the Balkans indicate a Mesolithic Western European ancestry.


http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Atlantic-admixture.png


The Atlantic admixture appears to be a hybrid of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers and Neolithic farmers. All Mesolithic and Neolithic samples from Western Europe had about 25% of it. The only exception is for Mesolithic HG from Sweden (Motala) who had only 10%.



Prehistoric samples

Atlantic admixture



Mesolithic La Braña (Asturias, Spain)
27.3%


Mesolithic Loscbour (Luxembourg)
29.5%


Neolithic farmer from Stuttgart (LBK culture)
23.2%


Ötzi the Iceman (Chalcolithic farmer from the Alps)
25.5%


Gökhem2 (Swedish Neolithic farmer)
27.7%


Motala12 (Mesolithic HG from Sweden)
10.1%



What is surprising is that the modern frequencies have hardly changed at all in the last 7000 years in all these regions (Sweden being intermediary between the two samples, but closer to the Neolithic), despite the Indo-European invasions.

On the other hand, the Atlantic admixture appears to have spread eastward since the Bronze Age, as it was virtually absent from Russia even 4000 years ago.

There hasn't been any major historical migrations from west to east in Europe. It has always been the other way round. Therefore the most likely explanation for its diffusion eastward is by intermarriage between neighbours (on the scale of several millennia) and minor migrations like that of medieval Germans to Poland, Romania and the Volga, or Swedish Vikings to Eastern Europe.

So if the Adlantic Admixture peaks in Basque, what is the admixture of the Basque?

Maciamo
05-03-15, 13:07
Haplogroup V peaks in North West Africa and Finland. So that once against suggests a North African route of R1b. Most traces of this migration would have been erased by the desertification of the Sahara. An eastward diffusion can be explained by a large North African population with Egyptian technology pouring into Iberia.

If your map is including haplogroup V your data is definitely questionable for Morocco. Of course all current maps suffer from poor sample size but it seems to me the 23andme data is the most objective.

That's not correct. Haplogroup HV0 peaks in North Africa. In Finland or Lapland there is no HV0 whatsoever, only V. Besides, Finnish people have a very average 7% of haploroup V, and it is mostly the Northeast European V1a1a, with a bit of V7a and V8. The Saami, who live in the far north of Finland, Norway and Sweden, have 42% of haplogroup V, but all of it is V5, an entirely different variety from the Finns or Scandinavians, and one that isn't found in southern Europe or North Africa either.

MOESAN
05-03-15, 23:51
to Maciamo:
OK for the downstreams of mt-V - but genetics is dynamics: all of these V 1/2/3/.../10/... have some common ancestorS, the question is to find who, when and where and where through... no barriers here - (just for the logic, I'm not contesting you) -

MOESAN
06-03-15, 00:05
Sorry, it's not new, but I think this 'atlantic' component contains some >10-<20% (calculated by my nose) of 'cro-magnoids' and other WHG lignages + pre-Neolithic first western 'mediterraneans' which doesn't exclude previous far ancestral links between Cro-M. WHGs and pre-NeoL...

mihaitzateo
06-03-15, 01:20
I am wondering what population was the source of this admixture.

Expredel
06-03-15, 06:00
That's not correct. Haplogroup HV0 peaks in North Africa. In Finland or Lapland there is no HV0 whatsoever, only V. Besides, Finnish people have a very average 7% of haploroup V, and it is mostly the Northeast European V1a1a, with a bit of V7a and V8. The Saami, who live in the far north of Finland, Norway and Sweden, have 42% of haplogroup V, but all of it is V5, an entirely different variety from the Finns or Scandinavians, and one that isn't found in southern Europe or North Africa either.
Haplogroup V reaches 15% in NW Africa according to 23andme, with Finnish regions getting close to 50%. Could be 23andme is wrong.

Twilight
06-03-15, 06:30
Haplogroup V reaches 15% in NW Africa according to 23andme, with Finnish regions getting close to 50%. Could be 23andme is wrong.

23andme hasn't had an update on haplogroup history since around 2010 so the information is kind of out of date

Maciamo
06-03-15, 09:44
to Maciamo:
OK for the downstreams of mt-V - but genetics is dynamics: all of these V 1/2/3/.../10/... have some common ancestorS, the question is to find who, when and where and where through... no barriers here - (just for the logic, I'm not contesting you) -

The most likely scenario in my eyes is that haplogroup HV0 came from the Middle East to Northwest Africa with Neolithic herders or farmers, then entered Iberia around the 7th or 6th millennium BCE. Haplogroup V would have appeared in Northwest Africa, but through a founder effect would have really thrived in Iberia during the Neolithic. It would then have spread to Western Europe and Scandinavia with the Megalithic and Bell Beaker cultures, alongside mtDNA H1 and H3. The TMRCA for haplogroup V is very young - only about 10,000 years (8000 BCE).

Kristiina
06-03-15, 10:19
Finns seem to have also HV0a1 which according to Wikipediais a sister branch of V. Familytree reports two HV0a1 sequences from Finland (inlandareas).

According to ”Mitochondrial DNA sequence variation inFinnish patients with matrilineal diabetes mellitus”, the Finnish HV0/V haplotypesare HV0a, V5, V7a, V8, V1a.

(Figure 1, http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1756-0500-5-350.pdf)

17-18th century Sámi samples (Chalmny-Varre) had a highfrequency of V7a. (https://digital.library.adelaide.edu.au/dspace/bitstream/2440/74221/1/02whole.pdf)

The mtDNA study on Tatar mtDNA is interesting in thisrespect as they say that ”we analyzed 32 published haplogroup V mitochondrialgenomes from populations of Finns and Saami and three novel genomes frompopulations of Russians and Czechs. As a result, we have found that threemtDNAs of Tatars fall into subcluster V1a that is very frequent among Finns. Itis noteworthy that Tatars and Finns share mtDNAs from this subcluster on alarge time span—from 7.9 and 2.8 ka ago (for complete genome and synonymousrates, respectively) for subcluster V1a to 0.85 ka ago and even less (forcomplete genome and synonymous rates) for small subcluster V1a1a1 (table 3). Inaddition, analysis of subcluster V3a demonstrates that divergence betweenRussian/Finnish mtDNAs is estimated as 4.8 and 7.9 ka ago (for complete genomeand synonymous rates, respectively).
Based on complete mtDNA variation of eastern Europeans (for40 mitochondrial genomes from populations of Finns, Saami, Tatars, Russians,and Czechs), haplogroup HV0a dates to ∼14.5 ka ago, fitting the time ofexpansion from European glacial refuge zones (the Franco-Cantabrian, Balkan,and Ukrainian ones). Meanwhile, haplogroup V (39 genomes of eastern Europeans)dates to 11.8 ka ago for complete genome rate and to 6.9 ka ago for synonymousrate, that is, somewhat less than previously reported dating results forhaplogroup V in Europe—13.7 (12.1–15.2) ka ago for complete genome rate and12.2 (10.0–14.3) ka ago for synonymous rate (Soares et al. 2009).”
(http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/27/10/2220.full (http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/27/10/2220.full))
It is interesting that HV0 is so frequent in Eastern Europeconsidering its postulated origin in Western Europe. According to the Tatar paper, the age of V3ais quite old in Eastern Europe (divergence between Russian/Finnish clusters is 4.8-7.9ka).

The frequency of HV0 (including V) in Volga-Ural is thefollowing: Mari 11, Chuvash 7.3, Karelians 6.5, Tatars 5.1/3.9, Russians 5.0, Mordvine4.9, Bashkirs 3.2.
By the way, preV seems to have been detected also in ancientHungarians with a frequency of 3.9%.

John Doe
06-03-15, 10:35
Just ran K15, I seem to get 20% Atlantic, quite high for a full Ashkenazi.







Population



North_Sea
8.44%


Atlantic
19.52%


Baltic
4.00%


Eastern_Euro
1.99%


West_Med
14.60%


West_Asian
16.32%


East_Med
26.20%


Red_Sea
6.79%


South_Asian
-


Southeast_Asian
0.62%


Siberian
-


Amerindian
-


Oceanian
0.29%


Northeast_African
1.24%


Sub-Saharan
-

mihaitzateo
06-03-15, 22:00
@John Doe:
And what is the typical result for an Askenazi on K15?
I find it very weird that you only have 2% Eastern Euro,should't Askenazi have more of that?

Alan
06-03-15, 22:17
@John Doe:
And what is the typical result for an Askenazi on K15?
I find it very weird that you only have 2% Eastern Euro,should't Askenazi have more of that?


Indeed, even I have more of it (5,5%). But his North Sea is higher.

John Doe
06-03-15, 22:18
@John Doe:
And what is the typical result for an Askenazi on K15?
I find it very weird that you only have 2% Eastern Euro,should't Askenazi have more of that?
Ashkenazis are supposed to get around 10% Atlantic on K15. I think they're supposed to get 5% east Euro.

Twilight
06-03-15, 22:19
Hay Maciamo; or any others who can fill me in on this.


I noticed you mentioned in your Haplogroup R1B report that the Paleolithic R1B people aka Mammoth Hunters had the mtdna markers of U5 and V also shared with Uralic tribes and Mesolithic Europeans. I'm also intrigued that Mtdna Haplogroup U5 and V have ancestral ties to the Middle east; Mtdna U and HV yet I'm supposedly getting 30.5% Atlantic Dna/Mtdna V clan as a Celto-Germanic and I would like to get enlighten on this matter if that is okay with you


Do you know if par chance if some of the Grevitian culture woman decided to ditch their Haplogroup IJ husbands to hit on the R1B people for their ability to hunt Mammoth or were the Mammoth hunters prehistoric Casanova pirates sacking haplotypes I men tribes and taking the woman as companions?


I find the first option most likely but I wanted to make sure with you. Almost a third of my ancestry;30.5% is under the Atlantic mixture according to K15.

Thank you so much for posting this map btw :).

John Doe
06-03-15, 22:19
Indeed, even I have more of it (5,5%). But his North Sea is higher.
Maybe that's because AJs had a larger, more significant and longer contact with populations possessing higher NS admixture than Kurds, and Kurds had a more significant contact with populations possessing higher eastern European admixture than AJs.

Alan
06-03-15, 23:12
Maybe that's because AJs had a larger, more significant and longer contact with populations possessing higher NS admixture than Kurds, and Kurds had a more significant contact with populations possessing higher eastern European admixture than AJs.

I think North Sea and East European are two sides of the same medal. So we should see them as one. Ashkenazis are heavily admixed with East European genes. So naturally taken both components together they should have more of it. Most of their East European DNA is probably North Sea like.

And most of AJ European genes seem to be in Atlantic and West Med component. I have almost no Atlantic. And less West Med but suprisingly more East Med. Also I have some of the ANI/South Asian (Gedrosia/West Asian) genes just like Yamna.


Here are my results => http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30936-Yamna-quot-25-ENF-30-35-ANE-quot-and-40-45-WHG?p=451225&viewfull=1#post451225

John Doe
07-03-15, 00:05
I think North Sea and East European are two sides of the same medal. So we should see them as one. Ashkenazis are heavily admixed with East European genes. So naturally taken both components together they should have more of it. Most of their East European DNA is probably North Sea like.

And most of AJ European genes seem to be in Atlantic and West Med component. I have almost no Atlantic. And less West Med but suprisingly more East Med. Also I have some of the ANI/South Asian (Gedrosia) genes just like Yamna.


Here are my results => http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30936-Yamna-quot-25-ENF-30-35-ANE-quot-and-40-45-WHG?p=451225&viewfull=1#post451225
I don't know... AJs plot next to Sicilians and Maltese according to the last test by Lazaridis. I Tested with Eurogenes K8 and I plot in southern Europe, apparently next to south Italians, according to Davidski.

Maciamo
09-03-15, 10:40
Finns seem to have also HV0a1 which according to Wikipediais a sister branch of V. Familytree reports two HV0a1 sequences from Finland (inlandareas).

According to ”Mitochondrial DNA sequence variation inFinnish patients with matrilineal diabetes mellitus”, the Finnish HV0/V haplotypesare HV0a, V5, V7a, V8, V1a.

(Figure 1, http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1756-0500-5-350.pdf)

17-18th century Sámi samples (Chalmny-Varre) had a highfrequency of V7a. (https://digital.library.adelaide.edu.au/dspace/bitstream/2440/74221/1/02whole.pdf)

The mtDNA study on Tatar mtDNA is interesting in thisrespect as they say that ”we analyzed 32 published haplogroup V mitochondrialgenomes from populations of Finns and Saami and three novel genomes frompopulations of Russians and Czechs. As a result, we have found that threemtDNAs of Tatars fall into subcluster V1a that is very frequent among Finns. Itis noteworthy that Tatars and Finns share mtDNAs from this subcluster on alarge time span—from 7.9 and 2.8 ka ago (for complete genome and synonymousrates, respectively) for subcluster V1a to 0.85 ka ago and even less (forcomplete genome and synonymous rates) for small subcluster V1a1a1 (table 3). Inaddition, analysis of subcluster V3a demonstrates that divergence betweenRussian/Finnish mtDNAs is estimated as 4.8 and 7.9 ka ago (for complete genomeand synonymous rates, respectively).
Based on complete mtDNA variation of eastern Europeans (for40 mitochondrial genomes from populations of Finns, Saami, Tatars, Russians,and Czechs), haplogroup HV0a dates to ∼14.5 ka ago, fitting the time ofexpansion from European glacial refuge zones (the Franco-Cantabrian, Balkan,and Ukrainian ones). Meanwhile, haplogroup V (39 genomes of eastern Europeans)dates to 11.8 ka ago for complete genome rate and to 6.9 ka ago for synonymousrate, that is, somewhat less than previously reported dating results forhaplogroup V in Europe—13.7 (12.1–15.2) ka ago for complete genome rate and12.2 (10.0–14.3) ka ago for synonymous rate (Soares et al. 2009).”
(http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/27/10/2220.full (http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/27/10/2220.full))
It is interesting that HV0 is so frequent in Eastern Europeconsidering its postulated origin in Western Europe. According to the Tatar paper, the age of V3ais quite old in Eastern Europe (divergence between Russian/Finnish clusters is 4.8-7.9ka).


Thanks for sharing. This paper does show the branching of HV0a in the graph, but nowhere does it indicate that HV0a was actually found in the population, nor at what frequency. It's of course possible that HV0a is found in Finland, since only a tiny percentage of the European population has had their mtDNA tested. However based on the data I have, if HV0a is found in Finland it is only at trace frequencies (<1%).

EDIT : I have checked the FTDNA Projects for HV0 and for V. They do have 4 HV0a members from Finland (and 30 V members). Considering that haplogroup HV0+V have a frequency of 7% in Finland, the frequency of HV0 itself is about 0.75%, which is what I expected (<1%).


The frequency of HV0 (including V) in Volga-Ural is thefollowing: Mari 11, Chuvash 7.3, Karelians 6.5, Tatars 5.1/3.9, Russians 5.0, Mordvine4.9, Bashkirs 3.2.
By the way, preV seems to have been detected also in ancientHungarians with a frequency of 3.9%.

Many studies report HV0 and V together, as they can only be distinguished from one another by testing the coding region (more expensive test). That is why I made a map of HV0+V as there just wasn't enough data only for V. The Uralic people of the Volga region share essentially the same subclades of V as the Finns. I have seen confirmed data at least for V1a1 and V7a.

Maciamo
09-03-15, 10:58
Hay Maciamo; or any others who can fill me in on this.


I noticed you mentioned in your Haplogroup R1B report that the Paleolithic R1B people aka Mammoth Hunters had the mtdna markers of U5 and V also shared with Uralic tribes and Mesolithic Europeans. I'm also intrigued that Mtdna Haplogroup U5 and V have ancestral ties to the Middle east; Mtdna U and HV yet I'm supposedly getting 30.5% Atlantic Dna/Mtdna V clan as a Celto-Germanic and I would like to get enlighten on this matter if that is okay with you


That's for reminding me of that. I am getting doubts about mtDNA V being one of the original maternal lineages of R1b tribes. I came to this conclusion due to several elements:

- Haplogroup V is found alongside U5 in North Africa and in cattle herding communities of the Sahel, where haplogroup R1b-V88 is often quite common (Hausa, Fulani).

- Haplogroup V (V7 and V15) is one of the typical European lineages that has been found in Armenia and Azerbaijan, which is close to the Neolithic homeland of R1b cattle herders.

- No mtDNA V has been found among Mesolithic or Neolithic Europeans to date, which suggests a later diffusion.


However the modern data points at a Middle Eastern origin of haplogroup HV0 and a probable expansion of the V branch from Northwest Africa to Iberia then to the rest of Europe. It's hard to reconcile the two datasets. Actually the only way to reconcile the two is to assume that haplogroup HV0 and V both originated in the Middle East, and that V was indeed found at least (but perhaps not exclusively) among Neolithic R1b cattle herders, and that some V subclades spread to Iberia via North Africa with R1b-V88, while others spread across the Caucasus with R1b-M269 and later Indo-Europeans. So far haplogroup V hasn't been found in Yamna, but it was found in Corded Ware and Unetice.

Interestingly haplogroup V seems virtually absent from Central and South Asia, which at least means it wasn't linked to the Indo-Iranian branch (R1a-Z93) of the Indo-Europeans.

Twilight
16-03-15, 02:08
That's for reminding me of that. I am getting doubts about mtDNA V being one of the original maternal lineages of R1b tribes. I came to this conclusion due to several elements:

- Haplogroup V is found alongside U5 in North Africa and in cattle herding communities of the Sahel, where haplogroup R1b-V88 is often quite common (Hausa, Fulani).

- Haplogroup V (V7 and V15) is one of the typical European lineages that has been found in Armenia and Azerbaijan, which is close to the Neolithic homeland of R1b cattle herders.

- No mtDNA V has been found among Mesolithic or Neolithic Europeans to date, which suggests a later diffusion.


However the modern data points at a Middle Eastern origin of haplogroup HV0 and a probable expansion of the V branch from Northwest Africa to Iberia then to the rest of Europe. It's hard to reconcile the two datasets. Actually the only way to reconcile the two is to assume that haplogroup HV0 and V both originated in the Middle East, and that V was indeed found at least (but perhaps not exclusively) among Neolithic R1b cattle herders, and that some V subclades spread to Iberia via North Africa with R1b-V88, while others spread across the Caucasus with R1b-M269 and later Indo-Europeans. So far haplogroup V hasn't been found in Yamna, but it was found in Corded Ware and Unetice.

Interestingly haplogroup V seems virtually absent from Central and South Asia, which at least means it wasn't linked to the Indo-Iranian branch (R1a-Z93) of the Indo-Europeans.


You're most welcome :)

Interesting, considering that the Maikop and South Yamna Cultures are made up of R1B and G2a clans predominately and that the Bud Dniester Culture; R1a is negatve of G2a men. I have a hunch that if haplogroup V might have been a native clan of the R1B Cattle Herders then mtdna V would have originated from the Caucasian Neolithic Culture; G2A clan although I could be wrong.

Greying Wanderer
16-03-15, 21:28
What peaks in Basques and Irish which might have spread from the Atlantic to the east?

Twilight
16-03-15, 23:06
What peaks in Basques and Irish which might have spread from the Atlantic to the east?

Let's not forget that R1B haplotype was once considered to have originated from CroMagons in the Isles and Basques as well as V is considered to be in the present day; due to a saturated R1B and V haplotypes in the area.

Melancon
16-03-15, 23:15
Let's not forget that R1B haplotype was once considered to have originated from CroMagons in the Isles and Basques as well as V is considered to be in the present day; due to a saturated R1B and V haplotypes in the area.This is most likely not true. R1b was born in Central Asia. Read Maciamo's article: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28386-How-did-the-Basques-become-R1b - How did the Basques become R1b?

Greying Wanderer
17-03-15, 00:04
Let's not forget that R1B haplotype was once considered to have originated from CroMagons in the Isles and Basques as well as V is considered to be in the present day; due to a saturated R1B and V haplotypes in the area.

I was thinking LP.

People from the east arrive in the Atlantic region - LP spreads because cattle are ideal for the Atlantic bio-region - LP spreads back east.

bio-regions:

http://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/figures/biogeographical-regions-in-europe-1/map_2-1_biogeographical-regions.eps/image_original


LP:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-k4oPZEUaufc/T-PYttOk-HI/AAAAAAAAAZc/_q2crvb2LOk/s1600/Predicted+Old+World+LP+phenotype+frequencies+based +on+all+genotype+frequencies..png

Twilight
17-03-15, 00:16
This is most likely not true. R1b was born in Central Asia. Read Maciamo's article: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28386-How-did-the-Basques-become-R1b - How did the Basques become R1b?

And that is my point, we can't just assume that the Atlantic Admixture originated from the Basque/Ireland area just because the gene has saturated the area's population.

And neither should we assume that R1B or V clans spread from Western Europe to an Eastern Migration

Melancon
17-03-15, 00:28
And that is my point, we can't just assume that the Atlantic Admixture originated from the Basque/Ireland area just because the gene has saturated the area's population.

And neither should we assume that R1B or V clans spread from Western Europe to an Eastern MigrationUh, R1b originated in Central Asia and spread into Western Europe.

Twilight
17-03-15, 00:32
Uh, R1b originated in Central Asia and spread into Western Europe.I feel attacked so just to cover my tracts I'm agreeing with you :) and you have assisted my point. I'm not disagreeing with you in any way

Melancon
17-03-15, 00:47
I feel attacked so just to cover my tracts I'm agreeing with you :) and you have assisted my point. I'm not disagreeing with you in any wayThe Atlantid admixture is likely from pre-R1b neolithic individuals; who were most likely I2 and to a lesser extent; G2a.

Greying Wanderer
17-03-15, 01:10
If LP developed along the Atlantic coast then it wouldn't matter where the haplogroups originally came from. The dna of the people who developed LP could gradually spread eastwards.

Twilight
17-03-15, 03:33
The Atlantid admixture is likely from pre-R1b neolithic individuals; who were most likely I2 and to a lesser extent; G2a.

Probably, both haplotypes have close historical contact with the middle east, Well see. :)

Twilight
17-03-15, 03:34
If LP developed along the Atlantic coast then it wouldn't matter where the haplogroups originally came from. The dna of the people who developed LP could gradually spread eastwards.

Any V subclades come to mind? :)

Greying Wanderer
17-03-15, 03:40
Any V subclades come to mind? :)

Lactose Tolerance

Twilight
17-03-15, 06:42
Lactose Tolerance


I'm so sorry to non this but I don't quite se a connection with the Atlantic admixture and Lactose persistence

Greying Wanderer
18-03-15, 00:05
I'm so sorry to non this but I don't quite se a connection with the Atlantic admixture and Lactose persistence

The distribution is practically identical.

Llandeilo
03-04-15, 22:32
Hi, I'm a newbie and very happy to have found this group.

I'm Welsh, with very many generations, on nearly all lines, coming from 2 Welsh counties, I would have expected a higher Atlantic admixture. It seems I do get higher numbers on other tools.

North Sea: 41.20%
Atlantic: 23.81%
Baltic: 9.69%
Eastern Euro: 8.93%
West Med: 11.59%
West Asian: 2.86%
South Asian: 0.73%
Siberian: 0.61%
Amerindian: 0.11%
Oceanian: 0.47%

Although, when I look at the other break outs using Eurogenes K15, I seem to be predominantly West Norwegian.

gervais
09-04-15, 21:18
Welcome Llandeilo!

I think "Atlantic" in K15, is a mixture of two different components origin: North Atlantic (Origin WHG) + Iberian (EEF), which gives it a hardly understandable aspect in K15.
In clear, i think "Atlantic" did not exist!

You should try K36.
It is possible that you have a higher rate for North Atlantic and low for Iberian.
For comparison, in K36, British have about 17% for North Atlantic and 12% for Iberian

Tchek
11-04-15, 17:34
I'm HV0 and have Atlantic 31% on K15

Greying Wanderer
14-04-15, 10:18
Welcome Llandeilo!

I think "Atlantic" in K15, is a mixture of two different components origin: North Atlantic (Origin WHG) + Iberian (EEF), which gives it a hardly understandable aspect in K15.
In clear, i think "Atlantic" did not exist!

You should try K36.
It is possible that you have a higher rate for North Atlantic and low for Iberian.
For comparison, in K36, British have about 17% for North Atlantic and 12% for Iberian

I think "Atlantic" represents the expansion of LP people after the neolithic from a source in Cantabria/Brittany

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Atlantic-admixture.png

and "North Sea" represents the same thing but from a second source around the North Sea/Scandinavia

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/autosomal_maps_dodecad.shtml#Northwest_European

both were particular local mixtures of paleo HG/neolithic farmer/IE DNA imo so neither represent base populations but those particular local mixtures had an explosive expansion along the Atlantic coast at a particular moment in time as a result of LP and a slower eastward drift over time after that initial explosion.

If you add the two components together (Atlantic + NW Euro) the combined value more or less maps onto modern LP levels.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B7VSAmkCAAMMS8c.png:large

MOESAN
15-05-15, 22:30
it's difficult to compare 'atlantic' in different K's: K12, K15, K36 etc... it's confusing I think
for K15, if I'm right, 'atlantic' appears about more than 12% in Ust'Ishim and Kostenki-14 (>30000 BC and >20000 BC) and it disappears almost completley in HG Samara man. It regains some strength (about 5%) in later Yamnaya Samara. Question: is this the same 'atlantic'? did people from Finland or Karelia get southwards meanwhile without 'atlantic' or almost, and Central Asia 'atlantic' arrived or came back into Samara at Yamanaya times, or is it a West to East introgression of North Atlantic North Sea people in the Steppes???
according to periods, the moves changed direction. Archeology seems attesting migrations after LGM from France-Cantabria complex to NorthEast Europe and maybe very late even during Neolithic South the Baltic until North Russia. these last expansions could have leaven some spotty populations differing in big proportions from the previous ones. So a part of 'atlantic' DNA could have reached some tribes far in North-East Europe. But some of the MODERN 'atlantic' aDNA seems less WHG and more 'west-med': : could the megalithers (like the Long Barrows people having influenced Funnelbeaker C.) be responsible of an addition of aDNA (more of intruding 'west-med' + less of ancient WHG)? the question is not so ridiculous and archeology changes by time with new discoveries coming to complete the patchwork; the physical anthropology, so mocked by some people, doesn't contradict these facts concerning some places, even if I take it as a complement of knowledge, not as the main tool of it. Some of our old certitudes have bursted off. the East to West moves so typical of the I-Ean and others invasions can have dissimulated some opposite moves, less important. the ABO (O, rhesus -) distributions in Europe support partly the same scenario even if this tool is very unprecise sometimes. the m-tH distributions is interesting too.

clarbg
18-12-16, 05:35
I got 29.42% Atlantic.

New Englander
18-12-16, 17:27
# Population Percent
1 East_Med 23.55
2 Atlantic 19
3 West_Med 15.02
4 West_Asian 12.71
5 North_Sea 10.29
6 Eastern_Euro 7.04
7 Baltic 5.63
8 Red_Sea 4.42
9 South_Asian 1.49
10 Amerindian 0.55
11 Sub-Saharan 0.3

Joey D
19-12-16, 06:02
Population
Percent


East_Med
30.31


West_Med
17.77


West_Asian
17.34


Atlantic
12.77


North_Sea
9.65


Baltic
4.01


Eastern_Euro
3.49


Red_Sea
1.73


Northeast_African
1.23


Oceanian
1.09


Sub-Saharan
0.6






Population (source)
Distance


South_Italian
5.19


Central_Greek
5.69


East_Sicilian
6.66


Italian_Abruzzo
7.68


West_Sicilian
8.79


Italian_Jewish
8.8


Ashkenazi
8.99


Sephardic_Jewish
10.03


Algerian_Jewish
10.37


Greek
10.62





Using 2 populations approximation:







1 50% Central_Greek +50% South_Italian @ 5.471951





























Using 3 populations approximation:







1 50% Central_Greek +25% Cyprian +25% Italian_Abruzzo @ 5.225592


























Using 4 populations approximation:







1 Algerian_Jewish + Armenian + North_Italian + South_Italian @ 4.703165


2 Armenian + Italian_Jewish + North_Italian + South_Italian @ 4.792818


3 Algerian_Jewish + Armenian + Central_Greek + North_Italian @ 4.795398


4 Algerian_Jewish + Armenian + Greek + Tuscan @ 4.940431



5 Armenian + Greek + Italian_Jewish + Tuscan @ 4.969768

New Englander
20-12-16, 16:05
# Population (source) Distance
1 Italian_Abruzzo 4.84
2 West_Sicilian 5.71
3 Greek 6.85
4 Tuscan 7.53
5 Central_Greek 7.66
6 East_Sicilian 8.05
7 Ashkenazi 8.75
8 Greek_Thessaly 9.29
9 South_Italian 9.68
10 Bulgarian 12.26
11 North_Italian 12.79
12 Italian_Jewish 13.09
13 Sephardic_Jewish 13.16
14 Romanian 13.93
15 Algerian_Jewish 14.33
16 Serbian 16.34
17 Tunisian_Jewish 17.68
18 Spanish_Extremadura 19.07
19 Spanish_Andalucia 19.23
20 Spanish_Murcia 19.36


Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 54.8% Southwest_French + 45.2% Iranian_Jewish @ 3.53
2 94.1% Italian_Abruzzo + 5.9% MA-1 @ 3.54
3 55.1% Southwest_French + 44.9% Kurdish_Jewish @ 3.6
4 92% Italian_Abruzzo + 8% Kargopol_Russian @ 3.73
5 93.2% Italian_Abruzzo + 6.8% Chuvash @ 3.76
6 94% Italian_Abruzzo + 6% Mari @ 3.79
7 92.6% Italian_Abruzzo + 7.4% Erzya @ 3.82
8 89.3% West_Sicilian + 10.7% Kargopol_Russian @ 3.83
9 88.4% West_Sicilian + 11.6% Tatar @ 3.83
10 76% West_Sicilian + 24% Romanian @ 3.84
11 89.8% West_Sicilian + 10.2% Erzya @ 3.86
12 88.8% West_Sicilian + 11.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.87
13 79.1% West_Sicilian + 20.9% Serbian @ 3.88
14 92.5% Italian_Abruzzo + 7.5% Estonian_Polish @ 3.9
15 88.6% Italian_Abruzzo + 11.4% Austrian @ 3.91
16 89.3% West_Sicilian + 10.7% Tabassaran @ 3.92
17 92.6% Italian_Abruzzo + 7.4% East_Finnish @ 3.93
18 89.1% West_Sicilian + 10.9% Southwest_Russian @ 3.94
19 92.2% Italian_Abruzzo + 7.8% Russian_Smolensk @ 3.95
20 92.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 7.6% Southwest_Russian @ 3.96

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Cyprian +25% French_Basque +25% Serbian @ 3.616444




Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Austrian + Cyprian + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish @ 2.742715
2 French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish + Serbian @ 2.942163
3 Algerian_Jewish + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Serbian @ 2.979804
4 Algerian_Jewish + French_Basque + Iranian_Jewish + Serbian @ 2.980447
5 French_Basque + Iranian_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish + Serbian @ 3.016441
6 Algerian_Jewish + Assyrian + French_Basque + Serbian @ 3.021501
7 Cyprian + French_Basque + Lebanese_Muslim + Serbian @ 3.062569
8 French_Basque + Iranian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Serbian @ 3.071012
9 Austrian + Cyprian + French_Basque + Iranian_Jewish @ 3.077204
10 French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Moldavian + Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.101743
11 French_Basque + Italian_Jewish + Kurdish_Jewish + Serbian @ 3.136735
12 Algerian_Jewish + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Moldavian @ 3.164120
13 Cyprian + East_German + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish @ 3.170987
14 Kurdish_Jewish + Serbian + Spanish_Aragon + West_Sicilian @ 3.171661
15 Assyrian + French_Basque + Sephardic_Jewish + Serbian @ 3.172798
16 Kurdish_Jewish + Serbian + Spanish_Valencia + West_Sicilian @ 3.175521
17 Iranian_Jewish + Serbian + Spanish_Aragon + West_Sicilian @ 3.203618
18 Azeri + Lebanese_Druze + Southwest_French + Southwest_French @ 3.234926
19 Iranian_Jewish + Serbian + Spanish_Valencia + West_Sicilian @ 3.241805
20 Croatian + Cyprian + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish @ 3.243646

Hauteville
28-12-16, 10:20
Population
Percent


East_Med
30.31


West_Med
17.77


West_Asian
17.34


Atlantic
12.77


North_Sea
9.65


Baltic
4.01


Eastern_Euro
3.49


Red_Sea
1.73


Northeast_African
1.23


Oceanian
1.09


Sub-Saharan
0.6






Population (source)
Distance


South_Italian
5.19


Central_Greek
5.69


East_Sicilian
6.66


Italian_Abruzzo
7.68


West_Sicilian
8.79


Italian_Jewish
8.8


Ashkenazi
8.99


Sephardic_Jewish
10.03


Algerian_Jewish
10.37


Greek
10.62





Using 2 populations approximation:







1 50% Central_Greek +50% South_Italian @ 5.471951





























Using 3 populations approximation:







1 50% Central_Greek +25% Cyprian +25% Italian_Abruzzo @ 5.225592


























Using 4 populations approximation:







1 Algerian_Jewish + Armenian + North_Italian + South_Italian @ 4.703165


2 Armenian + Italian_Jewish + North_Italian + South_Italian @ 4.792818


3 Algerian_Jewish + Armenian + Central_Greek + North_Italian @ 4.795398


4 Algerian_Jewish + Armenian + Greek + Tuscan @ 4.940431



5 Armenian + Greek + Italian_Jewish + Tuscan @ 4.969768




It is impressive that you score a very low Red Sea, kinda like a French or an German. For example I score 3% instead.

New Englander
29-12-16, 04:18
^ Looks like his North Sea and Baltic are taking away from his Red Sea. Everything else seems about right. Might mean Norman Ancestry.

Angela
29-12-16, 06:16
There are always going to be slight variations, even between siblings and other family members. I don't think there is enough appreciation for how much chance comes into all of this when you're looking not at averages but at an individual's results.

All this over-interpretation of results and trying to correlate them with specific historical events is highly problematic.

I know that probably because of gedmatch Admixture calculators are very popular, but they're not easy to interpret and, in fact, very easy to misinterpret.

You also need to look at formal stats to get a more complete picture.

Hauteville
29-12-16, 16:18
^ Looks like his North Sea and Baltic are taking away from his Red Sea. Everything else seems about right. Might mean Norman Ancestry.
More likely North Western Italian judging by his countries, since there are town near of him that are Lombard or part so, like Randazzo, Maniace etc. At the same time, i also myself score high East Euro and Baltic admix (on Eurogenes K13 the last component is almost 12%) and my Y-DNA is common in the Balkans but I've find contacts from Germany and even England. Strange, really strange.

Hauteville
29-12-16, 16:22
There are always going to be slight variations, even between siblings and other family members. I don't think there is enough appreciation for how much chance comes into all of this when you're looking not at averages but at an individual's results.

All this over-interpretation of results and trying to correlate them with specific historical events is highly problematic.

I know that probably because of gedmatch Admixture calculators are very popular, but they're not easy to interpret and, in fact, very easy to misinterpret.

You also need to look at formal stats to get a more complete picture.
Indeed, I agree and the results can change from calculator to calculator. My results have variation, for example on my DNA Land I score 31% Balkan while on 23andme I've 5%, at the same time on this last tool I'm mostly Italian, close to 90+%.

Angela
29-12-16, 18:20
Not all calculators are equal. I can guarantee you that most people get higher northeastern and eastern Europe on the eurogenes calculators. They're designed that way.

Then you have to factor in that not only in calculators, but in commercial testing results, clusters that bear the same name may not represent the same exact genetic group.

As for DNA Land versus 23andme, as we've discussed before, 23andme has a cluster centered on the Italian peninsula. It also has a specific Balkan cluster. DNA Land looked at the alleles spread across north/north Central Italy and the Balkans and called the cluster Balkan. That gave a lot of Italians a lot of Balkan. Had they called it North/Central Italian a lot of people in the Balkans would have gotten a lot of "Italian". It's all the same genes.

You just can't take these things all that literally.

In Joey's case, given the location of his ancestral area, northwestern Italians are probably a better bet, but it might just be chance.

At 23andme my only non-northwest Italian close "cousins" are from Denmark. Does it have something to do with the "Lombard" castles dotting every hill or is it just another one of those "false flags", IBD sharing that is just the result of recombination of stray bits of dna? Who knows?

Joey D
30-12-16, 03:07
I agree with these posts, these various tests throw up all sorts of results, and clearly some place a greater weighting on one or another region.

So for me, it's just a bit of fun, and to be frank, it doesn't keep me up at night.

Having said that, there are obvious pointers which keep cropping up which I think do carry some significance: Greece (obviously), the Near East and the Caucasus - I'm especially interested in the latter, and also this Ashkenazi result which keeps popping up everywhere (granted, I'm starting to understand why the Ashkenazi and Sicilians plot closely together).

Hauteville
30-12-16, 20:54
In Joey's case, given the location of his ancestral area, northwestern Italians are probably a better bet, but it might just be chance.
It is interesting that in the Fiorito's IBDs the first Italian region is not Basilicata and Calabria who makes more sense for geography and history but Liguria. A signal of North Italian settlements for sure judging also by the position of Val d'Aosta.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FQOJVWKiN_Y4-IoUUdPIjqfzdN-zH9R-9C_vwcbciCw/edit#gid=0

Angela
30-12-16, 22:29
It is interesting that in the Fiorito's IBDs the first Italian region is not Basilicata and Calabria who makes more sense for geography and history but Liguria. A signal of North Italian settlements for sure judging also by the position of Val d'Aosta.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FQOJVWKiN_Y4-IoUUdPIjqfzdN-zH9R-9C_vwcbciCw/edit#gid=0

Thanks a lot for that link. One quibble: in the notes I think "Northwest" is meant, not "Northeast".

Extraordinary that Liguria comes in first for Sicilia, and Aosta second for Calabria. I think I've mentioned before that one of my husband's best clients was a Sicilian American whose family came from Catania. He was an avid genealogist, and had traced his family tree in the male line all the way back to a Genovese who had relocated to Sicilia in the Middle Ages. Apparently they continued to get wives from home for quite a long time. I was more than fond of him for many reasons. He became, in fact, a surrogate father for me when my own father died. He didn't look like him at all, but he looked unnervingly like my Spezzino maternal grandfather: lean and spare, small boned, elegant, light on his feet, and very bright and quick witted. The surname appears both in Liguria and Sicilia, and I don't think modern immigration is the only reason.

Interesting in the link also is that sometimes geography doesn't really explain the genetic relationships. As you say, Toscana is equidistant to Liguria and Emilia, but the link with Emilia is much stronger. Toscana is also equidistant from Emilia and Lazio, and in fact there is the huge barrier of the Appennini between Emilia and Toscana, and yet Toscana is closer to Emilia.

Pax Augusta
31-12-16, 00:10
Thanks a lot for that link. One quibble: in the notes I think "Northwest" is meant, not "Northeast".

The doc "IBD states, Fiorito 2015" was made by Fire Haired14 based on the Fiorito 2015 paper.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31707-The-Italian-Genome-Fiorito-et-al-2015/page2?p=470195&viewfull=1#post470195


Extraordinary that Liguria comes in first for Sicilia, and Aosta second for Calabria. I think I've mentioned before that one of my husband's best clients was a Sicilian American whose family came from Catania. He was an avid genealogist, and had traced his family tree in the male line all the way back to a Genovese who had relocated to Sicilia in the Middle Ages. Apparently they continued to get wives from home for quite a long time. I was more than fond of him for many reasons. He became, in fact, a surrogate father for me when my own father died. He didn't look like him at all, but he looked unnervingly like my Spezzino maternal grandfather: lean and spare, small boned, elegant, light on his feet, and very bright and quick witted. The surname appears both in Liguria and Sicilia, and I don't think modern immigration is the only reason.

Yes, it's not so uncommon in Sicily and other parts of South Italy, especially for Sicilians, medieval ancestry from North-west Italy.



Interesting in the link also is that sometimes geography doesn't really explain the genetic relationships. As you say, Toscana is equidistant to Liguria and Emilia, but the link with Emilia is much stronger. Toscana is also equidistant from Emilia and Lazio, and in fact there is the huge barrier of the Appennini between Emilia and Toscana, and yet Toscana is closer to Emilia.

Interestingly enough the Tuscan sample is from Southern Tuscany (Siena and Arezzo) that borders Lazio (Viterbo), but despite this proximity the Tuscan sample is closer to the Emilian sample from Ferrara, one of the most distant Emilian province from Tuscany (Ferrara borders Rovigo in Veneto). The Ligurian sample is from Savona, so unsurprisingly closer to Piedmont, that part of Liguria has a lot of shared history with Piedmont.

Sile
31-12-16, 00:32
Yes, it's not so uncommon in Sicily and other parts of South Italy, especially for Sicilians, medieval ancestry from North-west Italy.






the "link" did decrease in numbers after the 1430 - fifth Genoese-Venetian war.............where Genoa and Milan where fighting against Venice and Aragon.

Clearly Aragon must have owned most of southern italy as well as sardinia

Their annoyance with Genoa and its Corsican ownership was very much against any Genoese association.

Pax Augusta
31-12-16, 00:51
the "link" did decrease in numbers after the 1430 - fifth Genoese-Venetian war.............where Genoa and Milan where fighting against Venice and Aragon.

Clearly Aragon must have owned most of southern italy as well as sardinia

Their annoyance with Genoa and its Corsican ownership was very much against any Genoese association.

I was talking more of these

http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/comunita-gallo-italica_(Enciclopedia-dell'Italiano)/

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombardi_di_Sicilia

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo-italico_di_Sicilia

Angela
31-12-16, 03:17
One country can rule another and the impact genetically can be negligible if discernible at all. It's different when you're talking about a virtual state sponsored colonization, as is the case we're discussing with the so called "Lombard" cities and other immigration.

Perhaps someone should inform Fire-Haired that Genova, Aosta, etc. are in northwestern Italy, so he can correct the typos.

Joey D
31-12-16, 03:28
Interesting spreadsheet, I would not have picked that in a million years.

Pax Augusta
31-12-16, 03:52
Perhaps someone should inform Fire-Haired that Genova, Aosta, etc. are in northwestern Italy, so he can correct the typos.

Also that Emilia-Romagna is in north Italy and not in central Italy.

Angela
31-12-16, 04:12
Given medieval Sicilian history it's not really a surprise to me that a lot of IBD sharing with northwestern Italians shows up.

I'm more surprised by the results for Calabria, Basilicata, etc. as I'm not aware of any actual "colonization" type migration from the northwest during the Middle Ages.

Some of it has got to be older then. Could it be from Roman veteran settlements? Is it older yet? Italics?

@Pax Augusta,
Isn't the Fiorito paper the one where they say Emilia-Romagna is in central Italy and then find that their Emilian samples plot with Northern Italians and not Central Italians or even Tuscans? :) In that case it would be their error, not Fire-Haired's.

Even some Italian researchers can be clueless sometimes.

Hauteville
31-12-16, 10:06
Basilicata had also colonization from North Italy in some zones.

MOESAN
31-12-16, 12:14
There are always going to be slight variations, even between siblings and other family members. I don't think there is enough appreciation for how much chance comes into all of this when you're looking not at averages but at an individual's results.

All this over-interpretation of results and trying to correlate them with specific historical events is highly problematic.

I know that probably because of gedmatch Admixture calculators are very popular, but they're not easy to interpret and, in fact, very easy to misinterpret.

You also need to look at formal stats to get a more complete picture.


totally agree

Pax Augusta
31-12-16, 12:46
Given medieval Sicilian history it's not really a surprise to me that a lot of IBD sharing with northwestern Italians shows up.

I'm more surprised by the results for Calabria, Basilicata, etc. as I'm not aware of any actual "colonization" type migration from the northwest during the Middle Ages.

Some of it has got to be older then. Could it be from Roman veteran settlements? Is it older yet? Italics?


Basilicata, southern Campania and at some extent northern Calabria, all places around the gulf of Policastro, have had the same migrations from northwest Italy during the Middle Ages.

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialetti_gallo-italici_di_Basilicata

Savona, especially the Val Bormida, was one of the places of origin of these colonisers.

Calabria has had also "Occitan" migrations from val Pellice in Piedmont but the Calabrian sample used in the Fiorito paper is from Reggio Calabria.

http://www.chambradoc.it/occitaniaGranda/occitaniInCalabriaGuardiaPiemontese.page



@Pax Augusta,
Isn't the Fiorito paper the one where they say Emilia-Romagna is in central Italy and then find that their Emilian samples plot with Northern Italians and not Central Italians or even Tuscans? :) In that case it would be their error, not Fire-Haired's.

Not really, the Fiorito paper is correct, Emilia-Romagna is grouped with the Northern Italians and is never considered in the paper as Central Italy. Why should it be? There is no reason to consider Emilia-Romagna as a Central Italian region. Linguistically, culturally and even geographically it's northern Italy. Obviously Emilia-Romagna is the northern Italian region that shares more with the central Italy and less with the far northern Italy, the Italian Alps. At some extent, and in a different way, this is also true for Liguria.


For this analysis, the Italian regions were grouped according to the five previously identified clusters (Northern, Central, Southern Italy, Aosta Valley, Sardinia).

https://s24.postimg.org/99uf7thx1/Fiorito_2015_b.jpg
https://s24.postimg.org/xcb92oyk5/Fiorito_2015_a.jpg
https://s24.postimg.org/o72w8tv5h/Fiorito_2015_c.jpg



Even some Italian researchers can be clueless sometimes.

I totally agree with you.

Joey D
31-12-16, 12:53
Given medieval Sicilian history it's not really a surprise to me that a lot of IBD sharing with northwestern Italians shows up.

I'm more surprised by the results for Calabria, Basilicata, etc. as I'm not aware of any actual "colonization" type migration from the northwest during the Middle Ages.

Some of it has got to be older then. Could it be from Roman veteran settlements? Is it older yet? Italics?

@Pax Augusta,
Isn't the Fiorito paper the one where they say Emilia-Romagna is in central Italy and then find that their Emilian samples plot with Northern Italians and not Central Italians or even Tuscans? :) In that case it would be their error, not Fire-Haired's.

Even some Italian researchers can be clueless sometimes.

There are a couple of separate (but related) events happening over the space of some 75 years. I know you will know much of this already, but it is worth laying it out, if nothing else, for completeness.

So the Normans first started venturing into the far South around 1030, as part of a pilgrimage to view some holy relics somewhere (I can't even remember where now).

Around this time, the Byzantine grip on the far South was weakening, in part because Lombards had already set up come city-states in places like Salerno (I'm going from memory here, so bear with me). So in this period, from 1030 to 1050 there is already a sizeable Lombard presence in Southern Italy.

At this point, one word of caution - the Byzantines had a habit of calling anyone who didn't speak Greek on the Italian peninsula as being a "Lombard". So it's unclear whether we are talking about actual Lombards, and/or whether it's a mixture of Italic speakers from other parts of the peninsular which may have included some Lombards.

So, even before the Norman conquest of Sicily, we already have various city-states, principalities and settlements in Southern Italy, occupied by people called generically "Lombard" in an era where Byzantine power is weakening in Southern Italy.

The Normans use this opportunity to conquer all of Southern Italy, and on and off, these Lombards were their allies.

Then, we get the Norman conquest of Sicily, undertaken by the youngest of the Hauteville brothers, Roger. It takes some 30 years. Just prior to the completion of the conquest, 1089,, Roger marries his third wife, Adelaide del Vasto, with notable family links to Montferrat. She granted her brother Paterno' (Pr. Catania), and from that point there is large-scale immigration into central and Eastern Sicily to help re-populate the interior which had yet to recover from the recent wars.

Geoffrey Hull writes: "Most of the settlements in the east of the island were founded by pioneers from the Monferrat region of the western Po valley...Padanian immigration to Sicily had been promoted by Roger I's marriage to Adelaide, daughter of the Marquis of Monferrat.... her brother Henry married Roger I's daughter Blandina, ruled the County of Paterno', the nucleus of "Lombard" settlement in eastern Sicily.

AS a footnote, he writes: A third and smaller Padanian colony was established in the Trecchina district of north-west Calabria, above Maratea on the Gulf of Policastro.

Joey D
31-12-16, 12:56
Ah, I see Pax has already mentioned Policastro, if you read my huge story above, you'll see that I eventually get to Policastro as well.

Pax Augusta
31-12-16, 13:22
Having said that, there are obvious pointers which keep cropping up which I think do carry some significance: Greece (obviously), the Near East and the Caucasus - I'm especially interested in the latter, and also this Ashkenazi result which keeps popping up everywhere (granted, I'm starting to understand why the Ashkenazi and Sicilians plot closely together).

It depends by the calculator and the sample chosen. Generally speaking Ashkenazis and Sicilians plot closely together because they have similar amount of ancestral components, but it's not due to a direct source, and Ashkenazis are usually more eastern-shifted than Sicilians as a whole.

These are based on MDLP K23b, where Ashkenazis and many Greek samples plot closely together as well.

http://i.imgur.com/kdRT3zi.png

http://i.imgur.com/sZnQA0S.png

New Englander
31-12-16, 20:14
If those regions have admixture from the past 1000 from the North, than what does that say about the population before than?

New Englander
31-12-16, 20:19
I also would be interested in a regional brakedown of the Providences themselves, including Campania.

Angela
31-12-16, 20:30
^^
If you're talking about an IBD analysis of sharing within the Italian peninsula it's already been done by Fiorito. Unfortunately I don't see Campania listed on the spreadsheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FQOJVWKiN_Y4-IoUUdPIjqfzdN-zH9R-9C_vwcbciCw/edit#gid=0

If you're talking about gedmatch Admixture results based on calculators like Eurogenes K15, I highly doubt academics are going to do it, and whatever amateur posters would come up with would be questionable given that they wouldn't be using scientifically selected and vetted random samples.

New Englander
31-12-16, 22:10
I mean an IDB breakdown of not just Provenances like Campania for example, but Naples, Salerno, Avellino, Caserta, and Benevento. The regions of each province.

Your saying it has been done?

Hauteville
01-01-17, 10:09
Afaik soon it will be released a new study of Sarno for autosomal, I hope to see included Campanian samples and IBDs. I'm sure that are included Arbereshe and Grecani's samples.