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View Full Version : Why R1bg couldn't possibly have been spread around Europe by Bronze Age invaders



joeflood
06-03-15, 06:35
Culture and language are of quite limited use when trying to assess the clade composition of a population. For the simple reason that any population was a mix of haplotypes, just as it is today, and there is no ‘typical haplotype’ of any culture.

I think we all agree that since about 2000-3000 BC the population of Europe has grown fast with no significant bottlenecking, therefore what we see today must be pretty much what existed then – with the possible additionof new mixes from invaders,

Now let’s suppose for argument’s sake that Europe was invaded by ‘Scythians’ who replaced all the existing men, by genocide or through much faster population growth (why?). Then with no bottlenecking Europe’s current population should have pretty much the composition of those invaders. There is no way at all that these ‘Scythians’ could have dropped all their R1bs in Western Europe, their R1a’s in Eastern Europe, and where are all the O’s and C’s? Or for that matter, the ‘Asian’ subclades of R1b? Why aren’t they here? It just doesn’t make any sense.

Populations concentrate through genetic drift, which will take a very long time. For a population of 5000 men to become ‘all R1b’ will take at least 5000 generations or 125000 years. Just like speciation, new haplotypes of any concentration must form or at least concentrate on the periphery in small isolated populations. Mutations within large central populations are swamped by numbers or by the constant influx from outlying areas, and never get off the ground. This is Genetics 101. So I say all haplotypes and most subclades got their start in small stressed isolated populations, just like species.

I am a believer in ‘they came from here’. The extraordinarily high proportions of R1b in say Ireland imply colonisation by very few men from an isolated population into empty territory. The very high concentrations of E1b on the Atlantic seaboard in Africa imply the same thing. So it couldn’t have been ice that emptied these territories, how about a bolide or supervolcano in the Atlantic maybe 4000 BC?

DMc
06-03-15, 09:53
Now let’s suppose for argument’s sake that Europe was invaded by ‘Scythians’ who replaced all the existing men, by genocide or through much faster population growth (why?). Then with no bottlenecking Europe’s current population should have pretty much the composition of those invaders. There is no way at all that these ‘Scythians’ could have dropped all their R1bs in Western Europe, their R1a’s in Eastern Europe, and where are all the O’s and C’s? Or for that matter, the ‘Asian’ subclades of R1b? Why aren’t they here? It just doesn’t make any sense.

Seriously? Having read all of the arguments for R1b's origins in the Eurasian Steppe, you came away thinking that this is how people believe it happened?

Robert6
06-03-15, 12:13
The R1b was in the north of Eurasian Steppe in the Mesolithic times, R1a was in Mesolithic Karelia
The R1b1* was in early Neolithic Spain
R1b1a2a and R1a1a1 were in Late Neolitic Europe

Alan
06-03-15, 19:18
The R1b was in the north of Eurasian Steppe in the Mesolithic times, R1a was in Mesolithic Karelia
The R1b1* was in early Neolithic Spain
R1b1a2a and R1a1a1 were in Late Neolitic Europe


correction it was R1b1* in the North of Eurasian Steppes (Samara)

Athiudisc
08-03-15, 22:07
For a population of 5000 men to become ‘all R1b’ will take at least 5000 generations or 125000 years.

This is Genetics 101.

Elaborate, please; I missed that day of class. What are you basing your math on? Why would it take 125,000 years for a population whose men are predominantly R1b to become "all R1b?" R1b didn't even exist 125,000 years ago...does this mean it can't exist now?

I believe Maciamo has presented very reasonable explanations for the dominance of R1b in western Europe.

Rethel
09-03-15, 13:25
Populations concentrate through genetic drift, which will take a very long time. For a population of 5000 men to become ‘all R1b’ will take at least 5000 generations or 125000 years.

Hi,

this is false thinking, becouse it doesn't work in history. If this algoritme is correct,
how can you exsplain changes of hyplotypes' proportions in four huge territories:
Australia, N i S America and Syberia. Even Afghanistan, Pakistan and India could
be count, becouse there, few thousands years ago were completly diffrent hg's %.
Three continents and syberia which I mentioned only 2-5 hundrets y.a. had nearly
100% local hg, and now there are only a few % these same haplotypes. If we lost
whole historic records from last 500 years, then some one can try to explain by the
same argumentation as you do today, how many hundrets thousands of years and
how many thousand generations exist before so many diffrent hg's became majority.

If this dosen't can be true in known history, why shoud
it be diffrent and much more complicate in no writing past?

p.s. sorry for my english ;-)

LeBrok
09-03-15, 18:33
Hi,

this is false thinking, becouse it doesn't work in history. If this algoritme is correct,
how can you exsplain changes of hyplotypes' proportions in four huge territories:
Australia, N i S America and Syberia. Even Afghanistan, Pakistan and India could
be count, becouse there, few thousands years ago were completly diffrent hg's %.
Three continents and syberia which I mentioned only 2-5 hundrets y.a. had nearly
100% local hg, and now there are only a few % these same haplotypes. If we lost
whole historic records from last 500 years, then some one can try to explain by the
same argumentation as you do today, how many hundrets thousands of years and
how many thousand generations exist before so many diffrent hg's became majority.

If this dosen't can be true in known history, why shoud
it be diffrent and much more complicate in no writing past?

p.s. sorry for my english ;-)
Welcome to Eupedia Rethel. Obviously there are much stronger evolutionary forces in action that simple mathematical formula of a clade growth.