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Sile
06-03-15, 09:24
http://www.readcube.com/articles/10.1002%2Fajhb.22677?r3_referer=wol&tracking_action=preview_click&show_checkout=1&purchase_referrer=onlinelibrary.wiley.com&purchase_site_license=LICENSE_DENIED

Maciamo
06-03-15, 11:16
I checked the paper, but it is rather disappointing. They don't test deep subclades for either Y-DNA or mtDNA. They didn't even test for R1b-P312 or R1b-U152, nor for top E1b1b subclades (M78, M123, M81) ! What kind of study of the Italian population is that ?

They write aberrant things such as "Most of the mtDNA haplogroups are mainly of European origin (haplogroups H, J, T), with a few haplotypes belonging to Eastern haplogroups (U3, R0a, and HV)" when in fact nothing can be said of the origin of H, J and T without knowing the deep clades. J and T are more typically Middle Eastern than European, and in fact first came to Europe with Near Eastern farmers.

I had a feeling this was going to be an amateurish study when I read the abstract and saw "For both uniparental markers, most of the haplogroups originated in Western Europe while some Near Eastern haplogroups were identified at low frequencies." I wonder what haplogroup could have originated in Western Europe except I2a. I suppose that they are referring mostly to R1b, but it actually originated in North Asia, and came from Eastern Europe to Italy. R1b does not descend from Western European Cro-Magnon ! It's 2015, it's unbelievable that some "geneticists" still write things like that.

But the odd thing is that R1b isn't even the main haplogroup in some villages. It never exceeds 45%, but in Jenne it is only 2%. I have never seen such low R1b frequency in Western Europe. In that village, it is haplogroup E1b1b and G2a that are dominant, followed by J2.

Three other villages have between 24% and 35% of I1, frequencies previously unheard of outside northern Europe. Yet there is not a single mention of Germanic people of any kind.

Then they make a big deal of the six Y-DNA Q samples they found in one village. They didn't even test the subclade, but try to guess nevertheless where that Q could have come from, with statements like "Central Italy could have hosted a settlement from Anatolia that might be supported by cultural, topographic and genetic evidence". Frankly ? Anatolia ? That's one of the least likely places of origin for haplogroup Q in Italy ! If it is Q1a, it could have been brought by the Huns, who, after all, did rampage through Central Italy and sack Rome. If it is Q1b, it would be more likely of Jewish or other Levantine origin. The presence of haplogroup Q in Anatolia today is mostly due to the Turkish migrations, and it is really far fetched to think that Turkish immigrants in the last few centuries could have brought it to a remote mountain village of Central Italy.

Five G1 samples were found in the same village as the Q samples. G1 is also of Central Asian origin and is found roughly in the same places in eastern Europe and the Middle East as Q. Yet it doesn't get mentioned at all.

That's the kind of absurdity level that I had witnessed before in papers like Brisighelli 2012 and Balaresque 2010.

Sile
06-03-15, 12:01
I checked the paper, but it is rather disappointing. They don't test deep subclades for either Y-DNA or mtDNA. They didn't even test for R1b-P312 or R1b-U152, nor for top E1b1b subclades (M78, M123, M81) ! What kind of study of the Italian population is that ?

They write aberrant things such as "Most of the mtDNA haplogroups are mainly of European origin (haplogroups H, J, T), with a few haplotypes belonging to Eastern haplogroups (U3, R0a, and HV)" when in fact nothing can be said of the origin of H, J and T without knowing the deep clades. J and T are more typically Middle Eastern than European, and in fact first came to Europe with Near Eastern farmers.

I had a feeling this was going to be an amateurish study when I read the abstract and saw "For both uniparental markers, most of the haplogroups originated in Western Europe while some Near Eastern haplogroups were identified at low frequencies." I wonder what haplogroup could have originated in Western Europe except I2a. I suppose that they are referring mostly to R1b, but it actually originated in North Asia, and came from Eastern Europe to Italy. R1b does not descend from Western European Cro-Magnon ! It's 2015, it's unbelievable that some "geneticists" still write things like that.

But the odd thing is that R1b isn't even the main haplogroup in some villages. It never exceeds 45%, but in Jenne it is only 2%. I have never seen such low R1b frequency in Western Europe. In that village, it is haplogroup E1b1b and G2a that are dominant, followed by J2.

Three other villages have between 24% and 35% of I1, frequencies previously unheard of outside northern Europe. Yet there is not a single mention of Germanic people of any kind.

Then they make a big deal of the six Y-DNA Q samples they found in one village. They didn't even test the subclade, but try to guess nevertheless where that Q could have come from, with statements like "Central Italy could have hosted a settlement from Anatolia that might be supported by cultural, topographic and genetic evidence". Frankly ? Anatolia ? That's one of the least likely places of origin for haplogroup Q in Italy ! If it is Q1a, it could have been brought by the Huns, who after did rampage through Central Italy and sack Rome. If it is Q1b, it would be more likely of Jewish or other Levantine origin. The presence of haplogroup Q in Anatolia today is mostly due to the Turkish migrations, and it is really far fetched to think that Turkish immigrants in the last few centuries could have brought it to a remote mountain village of Central Italy.

That's the kind of absurdity level that I had witnessed before in papers like Brisighelli 2012 and Balaresque 2010.

thanks, I never read it..............but the area of central italy would have been nice if done properly.

Some italian geneticists are very poor...............caio seems one of the better ones


BTW, Maciano, last week I saw a paper on NW italy ( piedmonte area ) I had a quick read, but it disappeared from site the next day..............have you recently seen one on this ( less than a week ago )

Maciamo
06-03-15, 12:15
The depth of haplogroups studied is bad and the interpretation of the results is abysmal. But this study has the merit to be the largest of the Latium to date, with 236 Y-DNA and 456 mtDNA samples.

I have incorporated the results for the regional frequencies of the Latium in the Italian haplogroup frequencies (http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml#frequency).

Sile
06-03-15, 12:34
The depth of haplogroups studied is bad and the interpretation of the results is abysmal. But this study has the merit to be the largest of the Latium to date, with 236 Y-DNA and 456 mtDNA samples.

I have incorporated the results for the regional frequencies of the Latium in the Italian haplogroup frequencies (http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml#frequency).

1 million plus Romans in Rome in ancient times of which 400000 where slaves............it could have been a good paper,

i will keep looking for the piedmont paper

Sile
06-03-15, 12:38
1 million plus Romans in Rome in ancient times of which 400000 where slaves............it could have been a good paper,

i will keep looking for the piedmont paper

no good for you...its medieval period

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0116801

Angela
06-03-15, 16:03
I checked the paper, but it is rather disappointing. They don't test deep subclades for either Y-DNA or mtDNA. They didn't even test for R1b-P312 or R1b-U152, nor for top E1b1b subclades (M78, M123, M81) ! What kind of study of the Italian population is that ?

They write aberrant things such as "Most of the mtDNA haplogroups are mainly of European origin (haplogroups H, J, T), with a few haplotypes belonging to Eastern haplogroups (U3, R0a, and HV)" when in fact nothing can be said of the origin of H, J and T without knowing the deep clades. J and T are more typically Middle Eastern than European, and in fact first came to Europe with Near Eastern farmers.

I had a feeling this was going to be an amateurish study when I read the abstract and saw "For both uniparental markers, most of the haplogroups originated in Western Europe while some Near Eastern haplogroups were identified at low frequencies." I wonder what haplogroup could have originated in Western Europe except I2a. I suppose that they are referring mostly to R1b, but it actually originated in North Asia, and came from Eastern Europe to Italy. R1b does not descend from Western European Cro-Magnon ! It's 2015, it's unbelievable that some "geneticists" still write things like that.

But the odd thing is that R1b isn't even the main haplogroup in some villages. It never exceeds 45%, but in Jenne it is only 2%. I have never seen such low R1b frequency in Western Europe. In that village, it is haplogroup E1b1b and G2a that are dominant, followed by J2.

Three other villages have between 24% and 35% of I1, frequencies previously unheard of outside northern Europe. Yet there is not a single mention of Germanic people of any kind.

Then they make a big deal of the six Y-DNA Q samples they found in one village. They didn't even test the subclade, but try to guess nevertheless where that Q could have come from, with statements like "Central Italy could have hosted a settlement from Anatolia that might be supported by cultural, topographic and genetic evidence". Frankly ? Anatolia ? That's one of the least likely places of origin for haplogroup Q in Italy ! If it is Q1a, it could have been brought by the Huns, who, after all, did rampage through Central Italy and sack Rome. If it is Q1b, it would be more likely of Jewish or other Levantine origin. The presence of haplogroup Q in Anatolia today is mostly due to the Turkish migrations, and it is really far fetched to think that Turkish immigrants in the last few centuries could have brought it to a remote mountain village of Central Italy.

Five G1 samples were found in the same village as the Q samples. G1 is also of Central Asian origin and is found roughly in the same places in eastern Europe and the Middle East as Q. Yet it doesn't get mentioned at all.

That's the kind of absurdity level that I had witnessed before in papers like Brisighelli 2012 and Balaresque 2010.

Thanks for the information. I was already suspicious just going by the fact that they were going to posit a source from Anatolia using yDna "Q" of all lineages!?. I was actually going to rent the paper to see if there was any value to it at all, but now I won't bother.

Could you post the lineages by town or at least by Lazio vs Abruzzo so we can see what was found in these isolated mountain villages? Thank you.

Angela
06-03-15, 16:06
1 million plus Romans in Rome in ancient times of which 400000 where slaves............it could have been a good paper,

i will keep looking for the piedmont paper

Lots of Hun slaves in Imperial Rome were there?

Angela
06-03-15, 16:32
Someone should alert the sadly misinformed "pseudo-Italian" Blogger on City
Data so that he can correct his comments. This paper is just more evidence that Italian researchers, including many of northern and central Italian ancestry (lots of such origin names among the authors), do indeed try to posit post Neolithic and post Bronze Age migrations from Anatolia into Italy. They obviously don't suffer from NEAD-"Near Eastern Aversion Disorder", unlike many hobbyists in this field.

However, in this as in other cases, the data doesn't support their conclusions.

Angela
06-03-15, 16:49
Thanks for the information. I was already suspicious just going by the fact that they were going to posit a source from Anatolia using yDna "Q" of all lineages!?. I was actually going to rent the paper to see if there was any value to it at all, but now I won't bother.

Could you post the lineages by town or at least by Lazio vs Abruzzo so we can see what was found in these isolated mountain villages? Thank you.

Ah, no need to bother...I see they've published the lineages in the Supplemental Info.

Here is the mtDna:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1002/ajhb.22677/asset/supinfo/ajhb22677-sup-0006-supptable2a.pdf?v=1&bef26d6b

Here is the yDna:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1002/ajhb.22677/asset/supinfo/ajhb22677-sup-0008-supptable3.pdf?v=1&680da36f

I didn't compute the numbers yet, but interestingly there's lots of I1 in Aquila in Abruzzo. It's tempting to try to draw some connection to Frederick and Conrad (Holy Roman Emperors), but the town was destroyed and repopulated at least one since then, so I think it might be a stretch.

Ed. For Board members, I tried, but the site won't allow the pages to link. The only way to look them is to go to the paper and click on Supplements 6 and 8.

Sile
06-03-15, 19:21
Lots of Hun slaves in Imperial Rome were there?

LOL, what Hun slaves are you talking about?..............do you have a link, :good_job:

Sile
06-03-15, 19:30
Ah, no need to bother...I see they've published the lineages in the Supplemental Info.

Here is the mtDna:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1002/ajhb.22677/asset/supinfo/ajhb22677-sup-0006-supptable2a.pdf?v=1&bef26d6b

Here is the yDna:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1002/ajhb.22677/asset/supinfo/ajhb22677-sup-0008-supptable3.pdf?v=1&680da36f

I didn't compute the numbers yet, but interestingly there's lots of I1 in Aquila in Abruzzo. It's tempting to try to draw some connection to Frederick and Conrad (Holy Roman Emperors), but the town was destroyed and repopulated at least one since then, so I think it might be a stretch.

Ed. For Board members, I tried, but the site won't allow the pages to link. The only way to look them is to go to the paper and click on Supplements 6 and 8.

your links are "Forbidden" to be opened................maybe they have been removed or what you use currently on you PC does not conform with this site...........I will check myself in the next hour or so and see if I can do it

Melancon
06-03-15, 20:09
Then they make a big deal of the six Y-DNA Q samples they found in one village. They didn't even test the subclade, but try to guess nevertheless where that Q could have come from, with statements like "Central Italy could have hosted a settlement from Anatolia that might be supported by cultural, topographic and genetic evidence". Frankly ? Anatolia ? That's one of the least likely places of origin for haplogroup Q in Italy ! If it is Q1a, it could have been brought by the Huns, who, after all, did rampage through Central Italy and sack Rome. If it is Q1b, it would be more likely of Jewish or other Levantine origin. The presence of haplogroup Q in Anatolia today is mostly due to the Turkish migrations, and it is really far fetched to think that Turkish immigrants in the last few centuries could have brought it to a remote mountain village of Central Italy.

Five G1 samples were found in the same village as the Q samples. G1 is also of Central Asian origin and is found roughly in the same places in eastern Europe and the Middle East as Q. Yet it doesn't get mentioned at all.

That's the kind of absurdity level that I had witnessed before in papers like Brisighelli 2012 and Balaresque 2010.How do we know for certain that Q1a is Hun in origin ? Couldn't Q have been a minor Indo-European haplogroup that migrated with R1b and R1a ? After all, both are descended from, and are mutations of Haplogroup P.

Angela
06-03-15, 20:11
How do we know for certain that Q1a is Hun in origin ? Couldn't Q have been a minor Indo-European haplogroup that migrated with R1b and R1a ? After all, both are descended from, and are mutations of Haplogroup P.

That occurred to me as well.

Sile
06-03-15, 20:13
again, none of the dozen T haplogroups match me in STR

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1002/ajhb.22677/asset/supinfo/ajhb22677-sup-0008-supptable3.pdf?v=1&680da36f

mine is forbidden as well



http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22677/suppinfo (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1002/ajhb.22677/asset/supinfo/ajhb22677-sup-0008-supptable3.pdf?v=1&680da36f)

use the links belows at your own leisure