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Fire Haired14
07-03-15, 09:12
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/16/9f/ab/169fab2bb42f250e49344f3886ef5aa7.jpg

Geneticker posted the genotypes of some of the ancient Europeans genomes from Haak 2015 in several key phenotype SNPs.

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/03/07/phenotype-snps-from-prehistoric-europe/

Here's an informative 23andme article about red hair variants.

http://blog.23andme.com/health-traits/no-im-not-irish/

I don't mean to be biased and ethnocentric about my own hair color, just it's nice to confirm some people in pre-historic times had red hair. Two of the Haak genomes appear to have been redheads and 6 were carriers for red hair.

This is especially true for the Mesolithic people of Motala Sweden. 3/7(I0013, I0012, I0016) had a red hair variant(rs1110400, rs1805007, rs1805008). One of them(I0016) had two red hair variants which according to Hirisplex means he was most defiantly a redhead. The Moatal_HGs appear to have been Albino-like compared to swathy WHGs from west Europe. They didn't just have a lot of red hair, one was a carrier for blonde hair, 7/7 had blue eyes, and most had light skin alleles in rs1426654 and rs16891982.

Here are the other ancient individuals who were carriers of red hair.

LBK I0025(rs11547464), Bell beaker I0113(rs1805007), Halberstadt_LBA I0099(rs1805007, rs1805009).

According to Hirisplex because Halberstadt_LBA I0099 has two red hair variants he was most likely a redhead.

Sile
07-03-15, 11:03
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/16/9f/ab/169fab2bb42f250e49344f3886ef5aa7.jpg

Geneticker posted the genotypes of the 69 ancient Europeans genomes from Haak 2015 in several key phenotype SNPs.

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/03/07/phenotype-snps-from-prehistoric-europe/

Here's an informative 23andme article about red hair variants.

http://blog.23andme.com/health-traits/no-im-not-irish/

I don't mean to be biased and ethnocentric about my own hair color, just it's nice to confirm some people in pre-historic times had red hair. Two of the Haak genomes appear to have been redheads and 6 were carriers for red hair.

This is especially true for the Mesolithic people of Motala Sweden. 3/7(I0013, I0012, I0016) had a red hair variant(rs1110400, rs1805007, rs1805008). One of them(I0016) had two red hair variants which according to Hirisplex means he was most defiantly a redhead. The Moatal_HGs appear to have been Albino-like compared to swathy WHGs from west Europe. They didn't just have a lot of red hair, one was a carrier for blonde hair, 7/7 had blue eyes, and most had light skin alleles in rs1426654 and rs16891982.

Here are the other ancient individuals who were carriers of red hair.

LBK I0025(rs11547464), Bell beaker I0113(rs1805007), Halberstadt_LBA I0099(rs1805007, rs1805009).

According to Hirisplex because Halberstadt_LBA I0099 has two red hair variants he was most likely a redhead.

He posted less than half of the 69

Fire Haired14
07-03-15, 11:27
He posted less than half of the 69

Thanks for letting me know.

Tone
07-03-15, 18:13
Ergo, R1B did not bring red hair into Europe from the East during the Bronze Age.

Alan
07-03-15, 18:39
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/16/9f/ab/169fab2bb42f250e49344f3886ef5aa7.jpg

Geneticker posted the genotypes of some of the ancient Europeans genomes from Haak 2015 in several key phenotype SNPs.


Genetiker also claims that the R1b in Iberian neolithic is descend of paleolithic Gravettians. Since than I find his conclusions dubious. Even if he might be right on this one.

LeBrok
07-03-15, 18:58
Neanderthals 50 kya years ago sported read hair in Europe.

Fire Haired14
07-03-15, 20:02
Neanderthals 50 kya years ago sported read hair in Europe.

But I doubt they have much connection to red hair in humans today. The Motala_HGs are directly connected because they have the same markers. MCR1 mutations associated with red hair today are most popular in the north and Baltic seas, which was the region SHG-types lived. Modern ones in Europe could be getting it from Mesolithic SHG-types.

If you picture the primitive, cold, and harsh world the Motala_HGs lived in it makes you wonder if they were so Albino-like because of their environment.

Tomenable
07-03-15, 21:30
Here are the other ancient individuals who were carriers of red hair.

LBK I0025(rs11547464), Bell beaker I0113(rs1805007), Halberstadt_LBA I0099(rs1805007, rs1805009).

According to Hirisplex because Halberstadt_LBA I0099 has two red hair variants he was most likely a redhead.

Interesting - Halberstadt I0099 was part of the Lusatian culture.

His Y-DNA haplogroup was R1a Z280 and his mtDNA haplogroup was H23.

He died around 1113 - 1021 years BCE. From Haak et. al. 2015:


ID number - I0099
Pop Label for Analysis - Halberstadt_LBA
Culture - Late Bronze Age [Urnfield cultures, precisely - Lusatian culture)
Group - LBA
Location and sample details (e.g. sample, grave and museum ID) - Halberstadt-Sonntagsfeld, Germany; HAL36C, grave 40, feature 1114
Date (lab no.) - 1113-1021 cal BCE (MAMS 21484)
Country - Germany
Sex - M
mt-hg - H23
Y-hg - R1a1a1b1a2 [Z280]

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

http://s22.postimg.org/5np1l4jr5/image.png

http://s1.postimg.org/z962wr6hb/Halberstadt.png

http://s1.postimg.org/z962wr6hb/Halberstadt.png

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Today Z280 is most common among Slavic and Baltic populations:


R1a1a1b1a2 (S204 / Z91, S466 / Z280) - an Eastern European marker (probably Balto-Slavic), is found throughout Central and Eastern Europe, the western limit of distribution stretches from East to South-western Germany and further to the north-eastern Italy, is spread in Russians, Ukrainians, Volga Tatars and others. Inside branches divided into several clusters studied so far only in general terms: East Slavic, Baltic, Pomeranian, Polish, Carpathian, Eastern Alps, Czechoslovakia and others.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml


R1a-Z280 is also a Balto-Slavic marker, found all over central and Eastern Europe, with a western limit running from East to south-west Germany and to Northeast Italy. It can be divided in many clusters: East Slavic, Baltic, Pomeranian, Polish, Carpathian, East-Alpine, Czechoslovak, and so on.

According to Underhill 2014, the highest frequency of Z280 is among Russians from Belgorod (48,3%) and from Oryol (47,7%):

The distance from Oryol to Belgorod is 300 km by road:

http://s28.postimg.org/bci1gzqal/Oryol_Belgorod.png

Some groups of Belarusians and Ukrainians also have over 40% of Z280:

http://s4.postimg.org/dmdherhzh/Underhill_2014.png

But where is the highest diversity of Z280 ???

LeBrok
07-03-15, 21:59
But I doubt they have much connection to red hair in humans today. The Motala_HGs are directly connected because they have the same markers. MCR1 mutations associated with red hair today are most popular in the north and Baltic seas, which was the region SHG-types lived. Modern ones in Europe could be getting it from Mesolithic SHG-types.

If you picture the primitive, cold, and harsh world the Motala_HGs lived in it makes you wonder if they were so Albino-like because of their environment.
Surely there is a new allele involved now in red hair than Neanderthal had. However it is not very conclusive after so many thousands of years and many mutations where it came from. Let's see what genomes of gravettians will tell in the future.

Finalise
07-03-15, 22:02
This can't be true....Maciamo said Indo-Europeans brought it.

Tomenable
07-03-15, 22:13
Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups of people mentioned in the OP by Fire Haired14:

Motala I0012: I2c2 / U2e1
Motala I0013: I2a1b / U5a1
Motala I0016: I2a1 / U5a2
LBK I0025: - / T2b
Bell Beaker I0113: - / J1c5
LBA I099: R1a1a1b1a2 / H23

So in case of Y-DNA only I2a, I2c and R1a Z280.

While today the highest frequency of red hair is mostly in regions where majority of people have R1b.

It seems that red hair spread independently of Y-DNA.

Or maybe it was more common in the past (remember, that red hair is most recessive of all hair colors).


This can't be true....Maciamo said Indo-Europeans brought it.

Well - both this can be true, and Maciamo can still be right.

Because how to otherwise explain high frequency of red hair nowadays in areas with R1b ???

No of these ancient samples was R1b - all of them were I2a, I2c and R1a.

One explanation could be that R1b came to areas inhabited by I2, replaced Y-DNA, but inherited red hair from females.

It is well-known that in history conquerors often killed men, but rarely women.

Tone
07-03-15, 22:43
Well - both this can be true, and Maciamo can still be right.

Because how to otherwise explain high frequency of red hair nowadays in areas with R1b ???

No of these ancient samples was R1b - all of them were I2a, I2c and R1a.

One explanation could be that R1b came to areas inhabited by I2, replaced Y-DNA, but inherited red hair from females.

It is well-known that in history conquerors often killed men, but rarely women.

I believe you are correct.

However, Maciamo's point is that because R1B "correlates" with red hair in Europe today, therefore they must be the "cause" of red hair, in essence bringing over the trait from the East.

The new data suggests otherwise.

It appears red hair has been in Europe since before the Mesolithic and is an indigenous trait. Red hair actually correlates to areas that were hunter-gatherer refuges from Neolithic farmers. It's frequent in fringe locations like Scotland, Scandinavia, the Alps, and even in the Eastern fringes of Europe with Udmurts (who are y-dna "N" btw). Unless R1B L-51 was hiding somewhere in the North West with HGs (highly unlikely but nothing surprises me anymore with genetics :)) then the invading males married the red-haired natives, as you say.

LeBrok
07-03-15, 23:31
Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups of people mentioned in the OP by Fire Haired14:

Motala I0012: I2c2 / U2e1
Motala I0013: I2a1b / U5a1
Motala I0016: I2a1 / U5a2
LBK I0025: - / T2b
Bell Beaker I0113: - / J1c5
LBA I099: R1a1a1b1a2 / H23

So in case of Y-DNA only I2a, I2c and R1a Z280.

While today the highest frequency of red hair is mostly in regions where majority of people have R1b.

It seems that red hair spread independently of Y-DNA.

Or maybe it was more common in the past (remember, that red hair is most recessive of all hair colors).



Well - both this can be true, and Maciamo can still be right.

Because how to otherwise explain high frequency of red hair nowadays in areas with R1b ???

No of these ancient samples was R1b - all of them were I2a, I2c and R1a.

One explanation could be that R1b came to areas inhabited by I2, replaced Y-DNA, but inherited red hair from females.

It is well-known that in history conquerors often killed men, but rarely women.
Red hair could have been replaced by more blond mutations. Could it be the transitional step into more blondism of north Europe?

Tomenable
07-03-15, 23:45
However, Maciamo's point is that because R1B "correlates" with red hair in Europe today, therefore they must be the "cause" of red hair, in essence bringing over the trait from the East.

It does not necessarily suggest otherwise. After all, red hair could be present both in the East and in the West.

Indo-Europeans could spread the trait from the East even if the same trait (or a very similar one) existed also in the West.

If LeBrok is right that this trait comes from Neanderthals, then admixture could happen anywhere between the Altai and Iberia.

Neanderthals were not restricted to Western Europe but lived in much of Eurasia, as recent findings of new bones suggest.

Red hair could exist in several distant groups of Neanderthals, and could be inherited on a few occasions, not just once.

Tomenable
07-03-15, 23:54
It appears red hair has been in Europe since before the Mesolithic and is an indigenous trait.

Europe is not Australia. It is not a real continent - there is no natural boundary between Europe and Asia, at least not in the steppe zone.

This kind of thinking about Europe as a "fortress" led people to believe that Neanderthals lived only in Europe.

But now we have Neanderthal burials as far as the Altai Mountains - actually they had been there before (!) migrating into Western Europe.

And it is possible that they lived also in China (even though no bones were found so far).

Tone
08-03-15, 00:25
If LeBrok is right that this trait comes from Neanderthals, then admixture could happen anywhere between the Altai and Iberia.


I am under the impression that the gene giving Neanderthals red hair is not the same gene responsible for red hair in modern people.

MOESAN
08-03-15, 01:02
Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups of people mentioned in the OP by Fire Haired14:

Motala I0012: I2c2 / U2e1
Motala I0013: I2a1b / U5a1
Motala I0016: I2a1 / U5a2
LBK I0025: - / T2b
Bell Beaker I0113: - / J1c5
LBA I099: R1a1a1b1a2 / H23

So in case of Y-DNA only I2a, I2c and R1a Z280.

While today the highest frequency of red hair is mostly in regions where majority of people have R1b.

It seems that red hair spread independently of Y-DNA.

Or maybe it was more common in the past (remember, that red hair is most recessive of all hair colors).



Well - both this can be true, and Maciamo can still be right.

Because how to otherwise explain high frequency of red hair nowadays in areas with R1b ???

No of these ancient samples was R1b - all of them were I2a, I2c and R1a.

One explanation could be that R1b came to areas inhabited by I2, replaced Y-DNA, but inherited red hair from females.

It is well-known that in history conquerors often killed men, but rarely women.

I answer yu and others here, so, you haven' t to take it for your account:
more than a biallelic locus exists, I think concerning red hair - I don't see the link with Neanderthal -
Y-haplo's CAN have links with other autosomes as long as a population doesn't mix with an other? not more, not less -
red hairs, today, aren't the Baltic richness, not at all (only Estonians seem having about the European mean or just above, about the 2% - Latvians and Lithuanians are under 0,6% of red + reddish hairs -
IT'S NOT RARITY OF A GENE VARIANT THAT PUSH IT TO DISAPPEAR, IN NO WAY IT'S RECESSIVE QUALITY/ HOW COULD PORTUGUESES HAVE BLOND HAIR (1,5%) OR SARDINIANS (1%)??? blond would have disappeared after all these centuries of scarcity - THE RECESSIVE QUALITY PERMITS THE REAPPARITION OF A VARIANT WE BELIEVE IT WAS DISAPPEARED, AT THE CONTRARY!!!

Drax
10-03-15, 16:09
According Genetiker, Mesolithic Samara EHG (ancestor of Yamna) was blond haired, blue eyes with fair skins, I guess that make him the first individual with these features; he was probably R1b (or maybe R1a;).

There are also another link in Genetiker blog, about Kostenki:

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014/11/14/analyses-of-the-kostenki-14-genome/

"The results also show Kostenki 14 as having derived alleles associated with red hair, milk digestion, Mongoloid light skin, and blond hair and blue eyes. Some caution must be exercised in interpreting these results, because the Kostenki 14 genome is not nearly as high-coverage as some of the other prehistoric genomes. But the results also can’t simply be dismissed, because it’s not impossible that Kostenki 14 did have the derived alleles shown below."

That could explain why we find these features to the different group of peoples in Europe; and Kostenti has already the same three ancestors that the modern European (it was already a very big surprise).

giuseppe rossi
10-03-15, 16:14
Genetiker did not use the Hisiplex system, so those results are doubtful.

Alan
10-03-15, 17:11
Genetiker did not use the Hisiplex system, so those results are doubtful.

Allot of Genetikers hypothesis are doubtfull and sound more like fantasy. Genetiker even claims the R1b1 in Iberian Neolithic is descend of Gravitterian (Paleolithic Europeans! while we haven't even found mesolithic European R1b1). This is why I will stay cautious as long as not one of the Reich lab confirms this. I would have expected them to mention it if these H&G were really light haired.


"light skin" here seems to be relativicaly. Relative to Indian color range they might have been "light". I doubt that they were as light as the farmers let alone modern Europeans. And it must have been some H&G anyways.

giuseppe rossi
10-03-15, 17:13
Neanderthals 50 kya years ago sported read hair in Europe.

West Eurasians mixed with Neanderthals only in the Middle East, so we must suppose that all Neanderthals had that red hair mutation, because the humans also have it.

Drax
10-03-15, 17:57
Genetiker himself have said to be cautious about Kostenki analysis; for the "light skin"; he talk about "Mongoloid light skin"; so far lighter than indians or west asians in general.

For EHG; if we talk about light colors (hairs, skins and eyes) well, that not a surprise if we take the Andronovo; Bell Beaker or Tocharians peoples:

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00439-009-0683-0

"Finally, our data indicate that at the Bronze and Iron Age timeframe, south Siberians were blue (or green)-eyed, fair-skinned and light-haired people and that they might have played a role in the early development of the Tarim Basin civilization."

I don't think they use "fair skinned"; if these peoples were not "fair-skinned" (they don't hesitate, in these kind of studies, to use the words "olive skin" if they have some doubt), imho they were probably more fair-skinned that the europeans farmers, and logically closer to modern europeans...

Also Motola WHG have lot of ANE (unlike the others "brown skinned" WHG; maybe that the "key"); Yamna have 40-45% WHG; so that seem "logical" in they have lot of the same features.

but I'm agree for Genetiker tests about WHG redhairs; EHG blonds etc..., we should wait for the other analysis; but that still very interesting and intriguing.

Fire Haired14
10-03-15, 23:26
Those bronze age Siberians were not tested for many pigmentation SNPs. From what I saw they had similar results as modern north Euros. The SNPs tested can't tell much about their hair color. All we know is that they had light skin and mostly blue eyes. Although a closely related bronze age Mongolian who was put through Hirisplex was predicted to have dark blonde hair, and mummies from relatives of these people, ancient writings, and ancient art prove they had diversity in hair color.

Most Mesolithic SHG and EHG samples surprisingly have the same light skin mutations as modern Europeans, although not all did. But I don't have faith in the current "light skin" mutations making much of an affect, so their skin color remains unknown. I am very confident that EHG and SHG ranged in hair color from yellow-black-red and had mostly blue eyes. It makes me wonder if they're the source of such pigmentation in modern Euros and Andronovo, but that's a bit of stretch.

Although Neolithic EEF may have been more dark haired(we can't say till we get more EHG and SHG) they did range in hair color from yellow-black and may have had red to. So, why can't they also be a source for hair color diversity in modern Europe and Andronovo. Both EEF and EHG-SHG-WHG(?) probably gave later Europeans hair color diversity.

Fire Haired14
10-03-15, 23:28
According Genetiker, Mesolithic Samara EHG (ancestor of Yamna) was blond haired, blue eyes with fair skins, I guess that make him the first individual with these features; he was probably R1b (or maybe R1a;).

There are also another link in Genetiker blog, about Kostenki:

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014/11/14/analyses-of-the-kostenki-14-genome/

"The results also show Kostenki 14 as having derived alleles associated with red hair, milk digestion, Mongoloid light skin, and blond hair and blue eyes. Some caution must be exercised in interpreting these results, because the Kostenki 14 genome is not nearly as high-coverage as some of the other prehistoric genomes. But the results also can’t simply be dismissed, because it’s not impossible that Kostenki 14 did have the derived alleles shown below."

That could explain why we find these features to the different group of peoples in Europe; and Kostenti has already the same three ancestors that the modern European (it was already a very big surprise).

K-14 only had a red hair marker. He had ancestral dark alleles for everything else. Geneticker must be referring to genes that are very weakly associated with pale traits. The dude lived 38,000 years ago, so there's no way a hair-eye color test based on modern people will work on him anyways.

LeBrok
11-03-15, 01:59
West Eurasians mixed with Neanderthals only in the Middle East, so we must suppose that all Neanderthals had that red hair mutation, because the humans also have it.
We don't know where all the mixing went. It started in Near East, because it was the first contact area between H Sapiens from Africa and Neanderthals. When the first mixing happened there were no West Eurasians yet, just black people from Africa.

Now, for these Africans to populate the North they needed to lighten up. What is the easiest way to get lighter skin? Wait tens of thousands of years for one to show up accidently, or "borrow" existing one from Neanderthals? As long as they could have offspring together, the later was way easier option.

Alan
11-03-15, 17:19
Genetiker himself have said to be cautious about Kostenki analysis; for the "light skin"; he talk about "Mongoloid light skin"; so far lighter than indians or west asians in general.





"Mongoloid light skin" is crap talk and just a play of words, because Mongoloids lack the modern Eurasian light skin alleles so he couldn't be as light.

Mongoloids do not have lighter skin as West Asian lol. And than you say even "far lighter". I don't know if you have ever seen a "Mongoloid" in your entire life. And you also talk about West Asians and South Asians as if they have one and the same skin tone.

You often use notions you have not much knowledge about. Kostenki clusters next to Caucasus populations. And Kostenki had even South Asian genes next to West Asian genes. Kostenki was the first human to be already evolved predominantly into a West Eurasian based on genetic.

This is Mongoloids How on earth do say have "lighter", let alone "far lighter" skin than South Asians, let alone West Asians?
http://www.willgoto.com/images/Size3/Mongolia_Mongol_in_Gobi_desert_de61a1fcf6164e9ca2f 4cc8342879f81.jpg
http://www.mongolia-travel-guide.com/image-files/mp-mongolian-nomad-man-with-camels.jpg
http://cdn.stylisheve.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Chinese-Hairstyles-for-men-_04.jpg
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/chinese-guy-794328.jpg
http://www.wikinger-reisen.de/bilder/reisen/Portrait_Mongole.jpg%3FPHPSESSID%3D732300879792a5a d4d1bc82400d9ad2f

Alan
11-03-15, 17:25
K-14 only had a red hair marker. He had ancestral dark alleles for everything else. Geneticker must be referring to genes that are very weakly associated with pale traits. The dude lived 38,000 years ago, so there's no way a hair-eye color test based on modern people will work on him anyways.

Genetiker is known to make an elefant out of a mouse. He was often criticized for his "insane" theories and harsh words against Dienekes.

So I would generally be cautious about his conclusions, compared to Genetiker other bloggers appear like the most unbiased people on the earth. I mean come on now who ins this period of time seriously claims R1b originated from the Gravitterian and from Iberia moved into Yamna to form Indo Europeans? That is what he proposes.

Drax
11-03-15, 18:20
@Alan

Yes, Mongoloids; and in your pictures too, are far lighter than most west and south asians (in my previous messages I have clearly said "in general"), if you can't accept it, I can't help you; and I don't have said nothing about Kostenki; I have simply copy/paste the article from Genetiker and just talked about "light Mongoloid skins"; nothing more nothing less.

For your personnal attack against me; well I have already said mutliples time that I'm not a specialist; but you are clearly not too; I can't count how many mistakes you have said in various threads, but you continue to make harsh accusations against real scientifics like Reich; or blogger like Davidski from Eurogenes; and now against Genetiker 3/4 times just in this thread; look if you have a problem with them; complain to them directly by email; and explain how you are superior and more scientific than they are; and again, I have just copy/past their articles.

@Fire Haired14

Thank you very much to have replied in a very civil manner, it's very interesting; thank you; I agree that the light hairs could be from these various peoples in Europe.

Alan
12-03-15, 00:00
@Alan

Yes, Mongoloids; and in your pictures too, are far lighter than most west and south asians (in my previous messages I have clearly said "in general"), if you can't accept it, I can't help you; and I don't have said nothing about Kostenki; I have simply copy/paste the article from Genetiker and just talked about "light Mongoloid skins"; nothing more nothing less.



personal attack on you? I simply corrected you. If correcting you is considered "personal attack" than fine. The personal attack I see here is coming from your side. And I am not going to take your nonsense anymore. If you have no clue than stop talking.

You probably mean no one can help you. Your claims are insane and you have absolutely no clue about the things you are talking. If you believe these individuals I posted are lighter (let alone "much" lighter) you must have been living on an isolated island.

Genetic "lightness" is not even equal to physical lightness, because other enviormental things can play a role.

I am now showing you just two examples of Arabian man, the most southern part of Western Asian.

http://topnews.ae/sites/default/files/Mohammed-Bin-Zayed-Al-Nahyan.jpg
http://regmedia.co.uk/2015/01/08/raif_badawi.jpg?x=648&y=429&crop=1

Take in mind these Arabs live in a region were the UV radiation is far stronger. If you are seriously telling me even these Arabians are far darker as the "mongoloids" than you are either biased or have not much experience.

Take in mind "West Asia" is big. Even in South_Central Asia you have populations such as Afghans who are clearly on the skin color shade as their Asian neighbors.

So if it is said "Kostenki14 had Mongoloid like light skin" according to Genetiker(whos work I find dubious anyways), in connection to Kostenkis genetic origin (West Eurasian close to Caucasian populations) Than the conclusion is he is on the West_SouthCentral Asian or South European range.

Drax
12-03-15, 11:38
You have corrected nothing and your "knowledge" (lol) impress just yourself, you have just talked absolutely no sense, and again, I don't have given any opinion about Kostenki; I have copy/past Genetiker message.

Yes personnal attack because first you don't have the level to correct someone or make judgement; you are biased because of your kurdish origin (something you have said yourself); you have "corrected" also Reich in your own fantasy world (and accuse him to be "eurocentrist"), so I guess he have made a mistake too and he is not a "scientific" for you ? Yes your picture you have posted of these arabic men are far brown skinned than Mongoloid peoples, deal with it; please try to compare Sadam Hussein/ahmadinejad or Ghandi (who physically represent well their populations) to Kim Jung Il or Yao ming for example; and again like I have already said multiples times, I have talked "in general" for the comparaison; not about isolated groups.

Yes the UV radiation is "far stronger" in arabia than in their country; but not always; and Mongoloids peoples who live in Arabic countries for years are still far lighter than them; west or south asians who live in the cold North Europe are still dark skinned; darker than the Mongoloids in general; the climate don't have too much influence for "skins"; north African countries are in general warmer than in subsaharian countries but their peoples are far lighter; or try to compare the dravidians populations to Nepalese peoples (so "mongoloid") despite to be in the same country, Nepaleses are far lighter than the vast majority of indians; in Afghanistan too, Mongoloid are in general lighter than the majority of the population; if you don't know that; well you shouldn't post messages in these forums.

Angela
12-03-15, 16:25
I am singularly unimpressed by subjective comments about who someone thinks is "lighter" or "darker". Nor do I see what on earth any of this has to do with the question of whether red hair existed in K14.

For the benefit of Drax, I will repeat for the hundredth time, pigmentation is a polygenic trait! Specifically as to this topic, one red haired allele will not result in red hair even if all other depigmentation snps are present. If it did, I would have red hair. If you find this difficult to understand, please refer to the numerous studies I have posted on the subject. Use the search engine.

As to "Mongoloids", that is a singularly unhelpful term in this context. East Asians, Southeast Asians, and Central Asians each have a different profile in terms of the presence of depigmentation mutations. Some of them they share with West Eurasians, while some of them are the product of convergent evolution. At any rate, the sweep of many of their depigmentation alleles is as relatively recent, it seems, as is the case in the West.

If you have such a particular interest in the pigmentation of East Asia in general, please feel free to open a thread about it.

Ed. Oh, by the way, are you any relation to Drac? Such a similarity of name.

Drax
12-03-15, 17:03
@Angela

First sorry to have contribued to the derailment of this topic, and I'm really sorry for Fire Haired 14; specially because I find this thread really interesting.

Angela, thank very much you for your comment, but there are a problem, I have said absolutely nothing !!! You can see my previous messages, I have absolutely made no comment about red hair or pigmentation of these old samples, I have just posted the link about Genetiker test because it was more or less the same subject (the "light hairs" test of the old EHG and Kostenki from Genetiker); it was a big surprise for me to see his theory/test about Kostenki; and I have simply shared the link; I have no idea about the subject and I don't have made any kind of comment; theory or give my own opinion etc...about these old samples; I try to be humble; again if you see my previous messages, I have simply copy/past the articles from Genetiker; and I have no idea if he is right or wrong etc...that not really my business.

No sorry; no relation with Drac.

MOESAN
12-03-15, 17:37
I answer yu and others here, so, you haven' t to take it for your account:
more than a biallelic locus exists, I think concerning red hair - I don't see the link with Neanderthal -
Y-haplo's CAN have links with other autosomes as long as a population doesn't mix with an other? not more, not less -
red hairs, today, aren't the Baltic richness, not at all (only Estonians seem having about the European mean or just above, about the 2% - Latvians and Lithuanians are under 0,6% of red + reddish hairs -
IT'S NOT RARITY OF A GENE VARIANT THAT PUSH IT TO DISAPPEAR, IN NO WAY IT'S RECESSIVE QUALITY/ HOW COULD PORTUGUESES HAVE BLOND HAIR (1,5%) OR SARDINIANS (1%)??? blond would have disappeared after all these centuries of scarcity - THE RECESSIVE QUALITY PERMITS THE REAPPARITION OF A VARIANT WE BELIEVE IT WAS DISAPPEARED, AT THE CONTRARY!!!


how! I answer myself, windy mind! mY point was: IT IS RARITY WHICHN LEADS TO DISAPPEARANCE, NOT RECESSIVITY:
sorry,I hope you had understood

MOESAN
12-03-15, 17:57
Angela is right when she speaks about different genes involved in depigmentation -
concerning Arabs, the autosomes prove the subsaharian imput (Yemen) and the most of previous Arabs were lighter skinned + no complete homogeneity- if you look for a arab footballer you have more chances to find a very dark one !!!
same among roughly said mongoloids: Coreans are among the lighter ones same level as southern Europeans means

Alan
12-03-15, 18:21
I am singularly unimpressed by subjective comments about who someone thinks is "lighter" or "darker". Nor do I see what on earth any of this has to do with the question of whether red hair existed in K14.



It's not about who is "darker" or "lighter" per se take in mind there is obvious ethnocentric agenda behind this. Since Genetiker said he might have Mongoloid type "light skin", Drax is now advocating that "mongoloids" are lighter than South or even Western Asians. So the conclusion is, " Since "mongoloids" are lighter than West Asians, Kostenki was lookwise closer to Europeans so Europeans are the "original Caucasian look". That is what is going through his mind and this (beside that he is often claiming nonsensical things) made me correct him.

Alan
12-03-15, 18:31
Angela is right when she speaks about different genes involved in depigmentation -
concerning Arabs, the autosomes prove the subsaharian imput (Yemen) and the most of previous Arabs were lighter skinned + no complete homogeneity- if you look for a arab footballer you have more chances to find a very dark one !!!
same among roughly said mongoloids: Coreans are among the lighter ones same level as southern Europeans means

Most of the Arabian football team players are good payed foreigners. There are rarely ethnic Arabians among them. Just for example in the Handball Kuwaiti team there are more Bosnians than actual Kuwaitis. You have to know Arabian countries are multi ethnic. Having allot of workers from India, Africa and Europe. Arabian countries are relatively racist against foreigners that is the bad truth. Heck they are even bad to other Arabs outside the Arabian peninsula.

For example in this image of Saudi Arabian football team. Only 1-2 persons are ethnic Saudis. All the other are payed foreigners. They have many East sometimes North African football players in their team.
http://www.arriyadh.com/Eng/Sports/Left/National-F/History-and-achievements.doc_cvt.files/image023.jpg


Or this Qatari team. Only two are actual Qataris. The second from left in the back row and the guy with number 8 in the first row. All the others are African, Iranian, Bosnien and Pakistani/Indian.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Qatar_national_football_team.jpg


However average Japanese or Mongolian is lighter than Arabians of course. I was just trying to point out that it is ridiculously wrong to think they are far lighter as all West Asians if they are barely few shades lighter than Arabians. From my own observation the lightest skinned East Eurasians countries are on level with northern West Asians and South Europeans. the notion that Kostenki being "Mongoloid light" makes him lighter than West Asians is just so wrong. So you can't "lighten up" Kostenki based on this statement to make him not fit "West Asian standards".

Drax
12-03-15, 18:34
lol, you are really parano Alan, seriously you are insane; I have posted these links simply because peoples in this topic talk about neanderthals; WHG and their potential redhead (or various hair colors); seriously you have a big problem against Europeans peoples (that not a surprise from you); I have said Mongoloids are lighter simply because...they are lighter than west/south asians; unlike what you claim in your previous post, nothing more nothing less.

And again, these articles are not from me; I have simply copy/paste the articles (unlike what you said; I have never claiming "something" or make my own theory, unlike you with your kurdish fairy tales; I have always posted links for various articles in my messages), if you have problem with that, feel free to complain by mail to Genetiker.

Again I'm not European, (or East Asian for the record), so try again about "to be biased"; specially with your kurdish/west asian propaganda no sense..and lol with your "made me correct him"; you don't have the level for that.

Angela
12-03-15, 21:07
lol, you are really parano Alan, seriously you are insane; I have posted these links simply because peoples in this topic talk about neanderthals; WHG and their potential redhead (or various hair colors); seriously you have a big problem against Europeans peoples (that not a surprise from you); I have said Mongoloids are lighter simply because...they are lighter than west/south asians; unlike what you claim in your previous post, nothing more nothing less.

And again, these articles are not from me; I have simply copy/paste the articles (unlike what you said; I have never claiming "something" or make my own theory, unlike you with your kurdish fairy tales; I have always posted links for various articles in my messages), if you have problem with that, feel free to complain by mail to Genetiker.

Again I'm not European, (or East Asian for the record), so try again about "to be biased"; specially with your kurdish/west asian propaganda no sense..and lol with your "made me correct him"; you don't have the level for that.

I am not going to warn you again about posting ad hominem attacks! The next one that does it is going to suffer the consequences.

For your information, Alan contributes a great deal of pertinent information regarding genetics, which is more than can be said for some others who frequent this Board.

Kostenski did not have modern West Eurasian pigmentation. End of story.

Ed. I don't know if this is an accurate representation. I suppose opinions could differ, but it is at least how a Russian scientist pictured him...he's by way of being a collateral relative of mine, since I am also U2. However, I bear no resemblance to him whatsoever.:smile:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y121/fi1/prehistoric/possibly_Kostenki.jpg

Alan
13-03-15, 00:15
I am not going to warn you again about posting ad hominem attacks! The next one that does it is going to suffer the consequences.

For your information, Alan contributes a great deal of pertinent information regarding genetics, which is more than can be said for some others who frequent this Board.

Kostenski did not have modern West Eurasian pigmentation. End of story.

Ed. I don't know if this is an accurate representation. I suppose opinions could differ, but it is at least how a Russian scientist pictured him...he's by way of being a collateral relative of mine, since I am also U2. However, I bear no resemblance to him whatsoever.:smile:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y121/fi1/prehistoric/possibly_Kostenki.jpg

Scientist believe he had still yed archaic "Australoid" like features. Which is clearly visible.

Drac II
13-03-15, 03:24
Scientist believe he had still yed archaic "Australoid" like features. Which is clearly visible.

As should be expected from early men. Morphologically speaking, Australoids are regarded as the modern racial type that has changed the least since prehistoric men.

Jim11
28-03-15, 20:27
Light Skin:
"these results point to the importance of several genes in shaping the pigmentation phenotype and a complex evolutionary history involving strong selection. Polymorphisms in 2 genes, ASIP andOCA2, may play a shared role in shaping light and dark pigmentation across the globe, whereas SLC24A5, MATP, and TYR have a predominant role in the evolution of light skin in Europeans but not in East Asians. "

mbe. oxfordjournals. org /content /24/3/710.full


" We date the coalescence of the light skin associated allele at 22–28 KYA. Both our sequence and genome-wide genotype data confirm that this gene has been a target for positive selection among Europeans. However, the latter also shows additional evidence of selection in populations of the Middle East, Central Asia, Pakistan and North India but not in South India."

journals. plos. org/ plosgenetics/ article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1003912

(Sorry, but it won't allow me to post links until I have 10 posts so you'll have to take out the spaces after copying and pasting)

That's Mal'ta boy time, not 8ybp SHG.

I thnk Angela mentioned elsewhere that the Motala SHG samples were recent to that area and the listing of them having east Asian dentition and that their ancestors had gene flow with Han Chinese suggests they came from the east. If they were mostly responsible for passing on SLC24a5 to the rest of Europe then you would also expect a higher proportion of Euros to have the EDAR allele variant and the resultant shovel shaped incisors, thicker hair and extra sweat glands.


Red hair has many different snp variations that arose at different times. The ScotlandDNA link gives D294H as arising in Europe only 30kybp, with R151c and R160w originating in west Asia 70k years back.

Greying Wanderer
29-03-15, 00:19
If depigmentation genes were somehow connected to latitude then they were always most likely to have developed among northern HGs.

(actually most likely would be among neanderthals or people who mixed with neanderthals)

That SLC24A5 (if i'm not getting it mixed up with the other one again) seemed to have been spread by the farmers seemed to nix that theory swinging it towards farmer diet instead however the Motala HGs have brought the northern/interior adaptations back to being the most likely again.

If these various depigmentation genes were specifically [high latitude or high altitude or northern interior] adaptations then
- this very wide but still regional distribution could explain why the more coastal distributed WHG didn't have them
- the IE probably carried some of these depigmentation genes and possibly from more than one source
- if the farmers also spread one or more of these depigmentation genes then where and who did they get it from?