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View Full Version : Genetics, Archaeology & Linguistics support PIE homeland near Proto-Uralic homeland



Tomenable
08-03-15, 04:17
Location of the Republic of Karelia:

http://www.balticuniv.uu.se/images/stories/images/Karelia/Karelia.png

Now let's remind everyone where the oldest so far discovered R1a1 was found:

Mesolithic hunters (5500 BCE), Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov island, Lake Onega (Karelia)

Data on genetic similarity of Karelian hunters from 7500 years ago to modern populations:

Poles (!) are most genetically similar to that hunter. Other similar groups include both Indo-European and Finno-Ugric speakers:

http://www.fotoszok.pl/upload/65982406.jpg

Vepsians (Veps) live in southern Karelia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vepsians

Interesting. This seems to support the theory about close connections between Proto-Indo-European and Proto-Uralic languages.

"The Indo-European Homeland from Linguistic and Archaeological Perspectives" (published in 2015):

http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/pdf/10.1146/annurev-linguist-030514-124812


The strongest geographic indicator of the location where PIE was spoken is the fact that PIE and Proto-Uralic (PU) appear to have been geographic neighbors. They had core vocabulary items that look suspiciously similar ('name', 'water') and similar-looking pronouns (Ringe 1997; Janhunen 2000, 2001; Koivulehto 2001; Kallio 2001; Salminen 2001; Witzel 2003; Parpola 2012). One kind of relationship between PIE and PU that would account for the apparently shared pronouns, noun endings, and basic vocabulary would be ancestral: The two protolanguages could have shared a very ancient common ancestor, perhaps a broadly related set of intergrading dialects spoken by hunters at the end of the Pleistocene.

And here is what Scandinavian scientists say (published in 2015):

http://www.astanatimes.com/2015/02/scandinavian-team-searches-indo-european-homeland-kazakhstan-dna/

http://dienekes.blogspot.fi/2015/02/scandinavian-team-looking-for-indo.html


"During the past 15 years, the Y-DNA R1a haplogroup has been characterised as a genetic signal of the Proto-Indo-Europeans. The theory now looks more plausible than ever, thanks to recent discoveries about its structure and phylogeography. Moreover, the Y-DNA R1a haplogroup has been found in numerous ancient remains supposedly belonging to early Indo-Europeans," the press release explains.

Perhaps PIE hunters migrated south to the forest-steppe, where they became pastoralists, domesticated horse, etc.

Tomenable
08-03-15, 04:39
One kind of relationship between PIE and PU that would account for the apparently shared pronouns, noun endings, and basic vocabulary would be ancestral: The two protolanguages could have shared a very ancient common ancestor, perhaps a broadly related set of intergrading dialects spoken by hunters at the end of the Pleistocene.

Perhaps it was one of major sub-divisions of Nostratic languages?:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostratic_languages


(...) Nostratic is a macrofamily, or hypothetical large-scale language family, that includes many of the indigenous language families of Eurasia, although its exact composition and structure vary among proponents. In its more restricted, current form, it includes the Indo-European, Uralic, Altaic and Kartvelian languages. (...)

Tomenable
08-03-15, 05:13
Check also:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek


The Greek branch

Little is known about the arrival of Proto-Greek speakers from the steppes. The Mycenaean culture commenced circa 1650 BCE and is clearly an imported steppe culture. The close relationship between Mycenaean and Proto-Indo-Iranian languages suggest that they split fairly late, some time between 2500 and 2000 BCE. Archeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture (c. 1900-1600 BCE) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites were found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaean descended from Russia to Greece between 1900 and 1650 BCE, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new unique Greek culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_Phenomenon


Seima-Turbino phenomenon refers to a pattern of burial sites dating around 1500 BC found across northern Eurasia, from Finland to Mongolia, which has suggested a common point of cultural origin, advanced metal working technology, and unexplained rapid migration. The buried were nomadic warriors and metal-workers, travelling on horseback or two-wheeled chariots. The name derives from the Seima (Sejma) cemetery at the confluence of the Oka River and Volga River. These cultures are noted for being nomadic forest and steppe societies with metal working, sometimes without having first developed agricultural methods.[2] The development of this metalworking ability appears to have taken place quite quickly.[3] (...) It is conjectured that changes in climate in this region around 2000 BC and the ensuing ecological, economic and political changes triggered a rapid and massive migration westward into northeast Europe, eastward into China and southward into Vietnam and Thailand across a frontier of some 4,000 miles.[4] This migration took place in just five to six generations and led to peoples from Finland in the west to Thailand in the east employing the same metal working technology and, in some areas, horse breeding and riding.[4] However, further excavations and research in Ban Chiang and Ban Non Wat, Thailand argue the idea that Seima-Turbino brought metal workings into southeast Asia is based on inaccurate and unreliable radiocarbon dating, and remains a hotly debated theory among archaeologists.[6]

Seima-Turbino could be connected with both Indo-European and Uralic languages:


It is further conjectured that the same migrations spread the Uralic group of languages across Europe and Asia: some 39 languages of this group are still extant, including Hungarian, Finnish, Estonian and Lappish.[4] However, recent genetic testings of sites in south Siberia and Kazakhstan (Andronovo horizon) would rather support a spreading of the bronze technology via Indo-European migrations eastwards, as this technology was well known for quite a while in western regions.[7][8]

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And here something perhaps more controversial / doubtful / fringe - a talk between Felice Vinci and William Mullen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6QPtcZWBPs


Felice Vinci is a nuclear engineer, amateur historian and author of The Baltic Origins of Homer's Epic Tales, The Illiad, The Odyssey and The Migration of Myth. William Mullen received his BA in Classics from Harvard College and his PhD from the University of Texas. He was a Professor or post-doctoral Fellow at Berkeley, Princeton, Boston University, and Harvard's Center for Hellenic Studies and St. John's College. Dr. Mullen settled in the Classics Department at Bard College in 1985. Felice shares compelling evidence that the events of Homer's Iliad and Odyssey took place in the Baltic and not the Mediterranean. For years scholars have debated the incongruities in Homer's Iliad and Odyssey, given that his descriptions are at odds with the geography of the areas he purportedly describes. Felice and Bill discuss how a climate change forced the migration of a people and their myth to ancient Greece. Felice identifies the true geographic sites of Troy and Ithaca in the Baltic Sea and Calypso's Isle in the North Atlantic Ocean. We'll hear where the story suggests that the events took place in the Baltic, such as Ulysses' journey along what sounds like the coasts of Norway. Also, we talk about why some tribes in Northern Europe might have stayed during the climate change. Later, we compare Homeric poems with Viking mythology to find similarities and compare Greco-Roman Gods and Goddesses to Norse Gods and Goddesses. Felice Vinci offers a key to open many doors that allow us to consider the age-old question of the Indo-European diaspora and the origin of the Greek civilization from a new perspective.

arvistro
08-03-15, 23:24
Too sensational feel for above posts :) Homer in Baltics theory is pretty popular among Latvian mythologysts, as well as land of super advanced Hyperborians where Goddess Leto (name!), mother of Apollo came from. Read a lot of those in teenage years, hope I have immunity now :)

But on topic
after seeing no Gedrosia admixture in Balts/East Slavs when Yamna/Corded has it ~26%... Means our ancestors maybe are not from Yamna or Corded, then where on North did we get our language from? By we I dont mean Latvians only..
Either PIE was local or close enough to local dialects to replace them via trade or other indirect means without pop replacement.
Or Gedrosia loss event came later somehow preserving language, which did came with Yamna folk :)
Time will tell.

holderlin
12-03-15, 08:21
It's amazing to me that this massive elephant in the room is basically being ignored. I love these forums but **** man. A Baltic homeland actually solves a lot of problems and yet it's very unpopular here. I understand people trying to explain the relationship between R1b and Gedrosian/ANE/Caucasian but it does at times act as blinders to other undeniable swaths of data. The archaeology from Dneiper-Donets all the way to Yamna exhibits striking continuity, and Dneiper-Donets is viewed by most Russian archeologists to be a wedge with a NW>SE trajectory. There's a reason that a direct Maykop/Yamna succession/lineage is considered highly speculative. The only thing you really see in the record is that the evidence of influence on the steppe through trade items shifts from the Balkans to the Caucuses.

I completely agree about the origin of the Hellenic people.

Tomenable
07-06-15, 03:38
The Karelian hunter was indeed not YP1272, but M459*.

M459 is the parent clade to both YP1272 and M198->M417 (of which of course the latter turned out to be much more successful).

The Karelian location of that M459* (as well as the "Ancient North Eurasian" autosomal component) reminds me of:

"The Arctic Home in the Vedas":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Arctic_Home_in_the_Vedas



The Arctic Home in the Vedas is a book on the origin of Aryans by Lokmanya Bâl Gangâdhar Tilak, a mathematician turned astronomer, historian, journalist, philosopher and political leader of India during 1880 to 1920. It propounded the theory that the North Pole was the original home of Aryans during pre-glacial period which they had to leave due to the ice deluge around 8000 B.C. and had to migrate to the Northern parts of Europe and Asia in search of lands for new settlements. In support to his theory Tilak has presented certain Vedic hymns, Avestic passages, Vedic chronology and Vedic calendars with interpretations of the contents in detail. The book was written at the end of 1898, but was first published in March 1903 in Pune.

(...)

Evidence in support of the theory:

1) Vedic Evidences

Particulars of Hymns and Verses in ten Mandalas of Rigveda are given. For example Hymn 1, Verse 2, Page 459.
Particulars of Passages in Taittiriya Samhita are given. For example Passage I, 3, 9, 2, Page 91.
Particulars of Hymns in Vajasaneyi Samhita are given.
Particulars of Sama Veda Samhita are given.
Particulars of Atharva Veda Samhita are given.
Particulars of Aitareya Brahmana are given.
Particulars of Kaushitaki Brahmana are given.
Particulars of Taittiriya Brahmana are given.
Particulars of Shatapatha Brahmana are given.
Particulars of Tandya Brahmana are given.
Particulars of Sadvimsha Brahmana are given.
Particulars of Taittiriya Aranyaka are given.
Particulars of Upanishads are given.

2) Avestic Evidences

Particulars of Vendidad passages are given.
Particulars of Yashts passages are given.
Particulars of Yasna passages are given.

Influence:

The Arctic Home in the Vedas has been cited in the works of Julius Evola, Savitri Devi, Rene Guenon, Jean Haudry and John G. Bennett.

Of course the "North Pole" as an exact location must be dismised... but Karelia is reasonably close, and indeed sub-Arctic:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subarctic_climate

Map showing areas with sub-Arctic climate (which include Karelia):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Koppen_World_Map_Dfc_Dwc_Dsc_Dfd_Dwd_Dsd.png

The closest relatives of PIE was Proto-Uralic, followed by Proto-Altaic and Kartvelian (the latter spoken in Caucasus region).

This shows that PIE homeland was most likely somewhere between the Ural Mountains, the Baltic Sea and the Caucasus.

BTW:

We have R1b-L278* (basal to both Chadic V88 and L389->P297->M269 and Bashkir M478) in Mesolithic Russia and in Neolithic Spain.

Both the Samara hunter and the Els Trocs farmer belonged to L278.

So there is ancient DNA evidence that those very basal pre-Indo-European clades - R-M459 and R-L278 - lived in Europe. Of course it does not prove definitely, that they lived only in Europe, and that their downstream haplogroups emerged in Europe.

But there exists a very probable possibility that downstream clades of those basal clades were begotten in Europe.

Tomenable
07-06-15, 04:00
One more thing:

The Vedas and the Avesta of course contain founding myths of the Aryans. Those myths were of course much, much older than times when they were written down on paper. Before that, they had been transmitted orally from one generation to another - like in all illiterate cultures. However, we should not a priori ridicule such oral traditions, and we should not consider them as totally unreliable.

There often is a grain of truth in such myths.

For example, Maori founding myths saying that their ancestors "came in 7 great boats" turned out to be - more or less - true:


Whyte also analysed the ‘haplotypes’ (groups of closely linked genes) carried on mitochondrial DNA, which is inherited only through the female line. Each population has a unique range of haplotypes. While Europeans have over 100 haplotypes in a particular region of DNA, studies so far have only found four different Maori haplotypes in the same region.

“The reason for this difference is what we call a genetic bottleneck. When people leave an island to go to the next island, obviously not everybody gets on the boat, so some of the genetic diversity is being lost,” she said. “Some of the maternal lineages may not have got on the boat, so they’re not carried on to the next place.”

Whyte has now identified 10 haplotypes in New Zealand Maori. “From that we have worked out that 56 women came to New Zealand to create the diversity of today’s population,” she added.

Whyte said these findings were consistent with Maori legend.

“The story I was told when I was growing up is that there was a fleet of seven great waka (canoes) that came to New Zealand," she said. "Every tribe knows which waka their ancestors arrived in. My ancestors were in a waka called Takitimu.”

“There might have been 20 people travelling in a canoe the size of a waka. Seven waka, that’s about 140 people. And if, as we think, about half or 56 of these people happen to be women, it does seem to tie in.”

Source: http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/ancient/AncientRepublish_817069.htm

Greying Wanderer
07-06-15, 12:00
interesting stuff

Tomenable
07-06-15, 17:08
When it comes to Mesolithic hunters, they were small in numbers, but they were highly mobile groups of people. For example Kennewick Man died near Kennewick, but he spent most of his life ca. 400 km to the west, near the Pacific coast, as his diet suggests.

Eastern European hunters such as R1a-M459 and R1b-L278 were probably also very mobile people, just like Kennewick Man.