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Fire Haired14
08-03-15, 04:17
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSkTyxjEIYQ7dEw6SA9Z3UojgHpRgcOV uqNEvv0SZiDsMyrCjOu or http://www.lameuse.be/sites/default/files/imagecache/pagallery_450x300/2014/09/18/505257274_B973600377Z.1_20140918191216_000_GCN3574 8Q.2-0.jpg or both?

I posted yesterday about the discovery of several red hair variants discovered in Mesolithic Sweden, along with a blonde variant, 7/7 blue eyes, and majority having light skin mutations. Now I'm posting about the Samara_HG who is consistent with the trend of pale Mesolithic Europeans. Geneticker just added the individual from Mesolithic Samara Russia to his phenotype list.

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/03/07/phenotype-snps-from-prehistoric-europe/

I was very surprised to learn he had light skin, blonde hair, and blue eyes. Not only that but he had TT in rs12203592, and note that all Mesolithic Euros tested for that SNP to date have at least one T allele except (genetically Mesolithic)K01 from Hungary. The Mesolithic individual from Karelia is consistant with EHG and SHG light pigmentation because had light skin(But CG in rs16891982 not GG), brown eyes, and dark hair.

EHG and SHG so far are consistent with being significantly lighter skinned and haired than WHG. Although some WHG may have been light haired to because several blonde variants and a red hair variant have been found the LBK samples who were supposedly a mix of Neolithic west Asians and WHG.

Could SHG, EHG, and even WHG have passed down high frequencies of pale genes to modern Europeans? We'll have to wait for more samples to have that question answered. Just last week if my life depended on it I would say little to no Mesolithic Europeans had anything but dark hair because of the samples we had so far.

Tone
08-03-15, 04:42
I originally thought fair skin/ light hair was a mesolithic trait but then I abandoned the idea once we started getting genomes from WHG and they had dark phenotypes.

These new findings are confusing.... and exciting. If I read those charts correctly, it would seem the R1B Samara HG is actually fairer than the more Northern R1A Karelia HG. Weird and unexpected!

The plot thickens.

Tone
08-03-15, 04:55
The hunter gatherers seem to be a mixed group phenotypically. I wonder if this is evidence that they are ethnically diverse and not as uniform genetically as we believe.

Fire Haired14
08-03-15, 05:26
We only have two EHG samples. The Karelia_HG having brown eyes is just revealing EHG had multiple eye colors, like Euros today. It doesn't mean EHG in Karelia were all brown eyed and EHG in Samara were all blue eyed.

I kept saying over and over last year that all the markers that cause light skin in modern Europe are not known and so Mesolithic Euros could have been light skinned in the same way. I also left room for the possibility they're the main source of pale pigmentation in modern Europe, and was ridiculed and called a raciest.

Now we have EHG and SHG samples going along with what that idea. Several people here at Eupedia need to understand paying attention to the pigmentation of ancient people isn't raciest. I'm as open to saying they were dark skinned as I am to saying they were light skinned. I'm simply interested in learning how they looked and don't have an agenda.

I'm afraid how the media and public are going to react to the news that pale pigmentation has been in Europe since at least the Mesolithic.

Fire Haired14
08-03-15, 05:42
The hunter gatherers seem to be a mixed group phenotypically. I wonder if this is evidence that they are ethnically diverse and not as uniform genetically as we believe.

Could be, only future research can tell if they were mixed. Some may have been brown skinned and some may have been light skinned, even within the same family. I see that as a possibility.

LeBrok
08-03-15, 06:24
I kept saying over and over last year that all the markers that cause light skin in modern Europe are not known and so Mesolithic Euros could have been light skinned in the same way. I also left room for the possibility they're the main source of pale pigmentation in modern Europe, and was ridiculed and called a raciest.
.
I'm sure it was more about how you presented the hypothesis and not about idea itself.


Before we were getting brownish skin WHG from Europe, I imagined that blondism showed up on North side of Black Sea, at the end of Ice Age refuge, and then migrated North and West into current (maximum blondism) location when weather warmed up. To get brownish WHG was a bit confusing. I'm still thinking that they were not as brown as people imagine and could carry additional genes, unknown alleles, of white skin that are not "in use" today, perhaps more copies of less efficient genes. The same why the white mutations of Neanderthal are not present today. More efficient mutations "delete" the old ones.

There are many mutations leading to today's fully blond person, so there was definitely fusion of many HGs and Farmers genes leading to blondism. From the link supplied I can see that Motala HGs carried some blond genes and not necessarily the same as Samara HGs, the farmers had same distinct ones too.

Thanks for posting the finds.

PS. Looks like both HGs were lactose intolerant.

Finalise
08-03-15, 06:33
I'm afraid how the media and public are going to react to the news that pale pigmentation has been in Europe since at least the Mesolithic.I`m sure the media couldn`t care less or knows the first thing about anthropology. Most of them would probably assume that as a fact anyhow. If you haven`t noticed, there are important things going on in the world than the hair pigments of 8,000 year old hunter gatherers.

Fire Haired14
08-03-15, 07:20
I`m sure the media couldn`t care less or knows the first thing about anthropology. Most of them would probably assume that as a fact anyhow. If you haven`t noticed, there are important things going on in the world than the hair pigments of 8,000 year old hunter gatherers.

True that.

Angela
08-03-15, 19:43
Very interesting, Fire-Haired. Are you talking about the results that are appearing on the Genetiker Blog? I haven't been following it. Were all the de-pigmentation snps for particular individuals collected and then run through Hirsplex to come up with a prediction by sample?

Kudos to the poster "JeanL" on Anthrogenica btw; I think he was the first one to notice some de-pigmentation snps in the Motala samples.

Since you seem to have been following this, do the Yamnaya samples come in derived for SLC24A5 as we had speculated? (We know they didn't have modern levels of the derived alleles for SLC42A5 because Sandra Wilde tested for that one.)

Also, am I understanding you correctly that the Karelia Hunter Gatherer (R1a) also didn't have the derived alleles? How does he compare to the Samara Hunter Gatherer (R1b)?

So, basically, in terms of Hunter-Gatherers and the derived alleles, are we just talking about the Motala ones? Also, is there a compilation somewhere that lists all the depigmentation derived alleles for each sample?

Sile
08-03-15, 19:52
he is slowly doing them all

Below are the genotypes for SNPs that have a large effect on phenotype for 53 of the 69 newly available genomes from prehistoric Europe.

an extra 18 done in last 2 days ..................spanish sample included recently

Fire Haired14
08-03-15, 21:07
Very interesting, Fire-Haired. Are you talking about the results that are appearing on the Genetiker Blog? I haven't been following it. Were all the de-pigmentation snps for particular individuals collected and then run through Hirsplex to come up with a prediction by sample?

Kudos to the poster "JeanL" on Anthrogenica btw; I think he was the first one to notice some de-pigmentation snps in the Motala samples.

Since you seem to have been following this, do the Yamnaya samples come in derived for SLC24A5 as we had speculated? (We know they didn't have modern levels of the derived alleles for SLC42A5 because Sandra Wilde tested for that one.)

Also, am I understanding you correctly that the Karelia Hunter Gatherer (R1a) also didn't have the derived alleles? How does he compare to the Samara Hunter Gatherer (R1b)?

So, basically, in terms of Hunter-Gatherers and the derived alleles, are we just talking about the Motala ones? Also, is there a compilation somewhere that lists all the depigmentation derived alleles for each sample?

Here's a link to Geneticker's post with the phenotype SNPs.

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/03/07/phenotype-snps-from-prehistoric-europe/

Here's a link to many ancient individuals Hirisplex predictions.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1seNbDtuZKjZZguMgMF2XxPalVTa91VjyIDQPp2TWFjc/edit#gid=1862023606

We've known about Motala12 having derived skin-color alleles since last March. We all thought it was a fluke, including me. Now my opinion is starting to change because of Sf11 and the 2 EHG genomes. jeanL is now making us more aware of the EHG and SHG trend, and showing Motala12 wasn't a fluke.

2/2 Yamna indviduals have rs1426654 AA. 2/2 EHGs and AG2(Upper Palaeolithic ANE) had it(unless it's a miss read or contamination) and most EEFs do, so it makes sense Yamna does. Yamna alleles in those two other SNPs are consistent with Wilde. 2014.

Bronze age/Late Neolithic Germans have more derived alleles in the three SNPs tested by Wilde/ 2014 than Yamna-Catacomb but more dark alleles than modern north Europeans. All the Bell beaker and Corded ware tested so far in rs12913832 have brown eyes and most of the other Bronze age Germans do to and a decent number have a C allele in rs16891982.

The Samara HG had GG in rs16891982 and rs12913832. The Karelia HG had GC in rs16891982 and AA in rs12913832. Also the Samara HG had TT in rs12203592 and CC in rs12821256, while the Karelia HG had two ancestral alleles in both. So, both according to Hirisplex are light skinned, but the Karelia HG is brown eyed and dark haired while the Samara HG is blue eyed and blonde haired.

So far SHG and EHG mostly have derived alleles in both rs16891982 and rs1426654. The only ones that don't are Ajv58 and two of the Moatals. We now have 4 different sites of unrelated(even the Motalas) SHG and EHG individuals telling the same story.

Fire Haired14
08-03-15, 21:32
Here are two links showing rs12913832 calls in modern pops.

http://browser.1000genomes.org/Homo_sapiens/Variation/Population?db=core;r=15:28365118-28366118;v=rs12913832;vdb=variation;vf=9124585

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2013/06/01/frequencies-for-blue-eyes-snp-rs12913832-in-hgdp-populations/

Angela
08-03-15, 22:34
Here are two links showing rs12913832 calls in modern pops.

http://browser.1000genomes.org/Homo_sapiens/Variation/Population?db=core;r=15:28365118-28366118;v=rs12913832;vdb=variation;vf=9124585

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2013/06/01/frequencies-for-blue-eyes-snp-rs12913832-in-hgdp-populations/


Thanks for the links. The results for the Italian HGDP populations for genotype seem accurate based on sheer observation (about 40% GG for Lombards and 25% for Tuscans). The rate for the Veneto would be even higher. Interesting that the Lombards are only 8% AA.

The results for the Tuscans for allele frequency seem pretty robust...about 42% for the presence of G in both sample sets if I'm reading it correctly.

On the other hand, the results seem a little counter intuitive for the Orcadians. However, I'm not familiar with them, so I'll let others speak to that.

Drac II
09-03-15, 09:24
Thanks for the links. The results for the Italian HGDP populations for genotype seem accurate based on sheer observation (about 40% GG for Lombards and 25% for Tuscans). The rate for the Veneto would be even higher. Interesting that the Lombards are only 8% AA.

The results for the Tuscans for allele frequency seem pretty robust...about 42% for the presence of G in both sample sets if I'm reading it correctly.

On the other hand, the results seem a little counter intuitive for the Orcadians. However, I'm not familiar with them, so I'll let others speak to that.

A little? More like they flagrantly contradict actually observed values. Orcadians are in fact the lightest population in Scotland according to actual anthropological observations (information on the subject can be found in The People of Orkney by Robert James Berry and Howie N. Firth, 1986.) Pigmentation "predictions" based on a few SNPs are hardly reliable.

arvistro
09-03-15, 12:47
So, there is a good chance EHG is found as source of Baltic blondism. Makes perfect sense.

Is there a population list by EHG admixture %? Then I could find somewhere on net say blond hair % list and see if there is modern correlation between two.

Sile
09-03-15, 20:02
Here are two links showing rs12913832 calls in modern pops.

http://browser.1000genomes.org/Homo_sapiens/Variation/Population?db=core;r=15:28365118-28366118;v=rs12913832;vdb=variation;vf=9124585

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2013/06/01/frequencies-for-blue-eyes-snp-rs12913832-in-hgdp-populations/

now that all 69 samples are done, why is their 3 groupings for skin colour
2 x Caucasus types and 1 as light skin with no freckling

Any idea where these come from?
I presume the light skin with no freckles would be BMAC , since it it not caucasus

Angela
09-03-15, 20:31
So, there is a good chance EHG is found as source of Baltic blondism. Makes perfect sense.

Is there a population list by EHG admixture %? Then I could find somewhere on net say blond hair % list and see if there is modern correlation between two.

I would think, if anything, it would be SHG, yes? Karelia is EHG and had dark hair?

There are some percentages for EHG for some populations in the Haak and Lazardis et al paper. It's in the Resnorm graphic, but it doesn't include all populations.
7137

The Finns and the Lithuanians appear to be about 22% EHG? Then there's the WHG percentage...31% in Lithuanians plus 2.7% Nganasan. Then there's the 44% "EN", of course.

I think some caution is still in order in terms of concluding where each particular snp arose and how it spread, however. We only have three WHG samples. Perhaps some will be discovered that have de-pigmentation snps that correlate more strongly with skin and hair. Also, although the SLC42A5 has a definite hotspot in Scandinavia if these results are accurate, I'm not so sure about SLC24A5 originating there.

Tone
09-03-15, 21:38
So I guess we can put a fork in the theory that Europeans became lighter because of cereal farming and a subsequent lack of vitamin D.

epoch
09-03-15, 22:17
If one looks at pigmentation there is a clear trend from the equator to the north to become gradually lighter. It is even visible in Sub-Saharan Africa, as the San are slightly lighter skinned. IIRC also Tasmanian Aboriginals were reputed (There are no full blooded Tasmanians left anymore) to be lighter than continentals.

Maybe it's like the HG's also had that skin lightening trend to the north and that the neolithic transition basically pushed that gradient southwards rather than abolish HG darkness.

EDIT: Isn't La Brana darker than Loschbour? Today the Spanish are slightly swarthier than Luxembourgians.

Fire Haired14
09-03-15, 22:50
Here's a spreadsheet of all the red hair variants Geneticker tested (most of)the Haak genomes for and the indviduals who were carriers. I also put the percentage of carriers in the HGDP pops and ave a link to a 23andme article giving red hair varient percentages. R151C(rs1805007) is the most popular red hair variant in modern and ancient pops. R160W(rs1805008) is about equally popular in modern pops, but we only have one ancient example so far. The other red hair variants are very unpopular in modern and ancient pops.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zPH-vy9kgyQzjyj2k5tLTRi7EyztWGScg05w9QMyBug/edit#gid=1542882145


~30-45% of north Euros(FIN, CEU, GBR) and ~10-15% of south Euros(TSI, IBS) are carriers of red hair via R151C(rs1805007) and R160W(rs1805008). R151C(rs1805007) was found in Upper Palaeolithic Russia, Mesolithic Sweden, Samara Yamna, German Bell Beaker, and German Urnfield. R160W(rs1805008) has only been found in Mesolithic Sweden.


Two African pops, all Latin American(Largely Spanish) pops, and one east Asian pop had red hair carriers. I bet the two African pops and maybe the east Asian pop have some European ancestry. All the south Asian pops had red hair carriers. I tend to think they don't get it from European ancestry but instead distant common ancestry with Europeans.


Because of the existence of red hair variants in Mesolithic Sweden and that there's documented existence of red hair in the middle east and central Asia, I think red hair has been around since the Upper Palaeolithic. The few statistics I've seen say it's most popular in north Europe(inclu. Northeast), and IMO in Europe it's Mesolithic(WHG?, SHG, EHG) descended.

Fire Haired14
09-03-15, 23:00
So, there is a good chance EHG is found as source of Baltic blondism. Makes perfect sense.

Is there a population list by EHG admixture %? Then I could find somewhere on net say blond hair % list and see if there is modern correlation between two.

The Mesolithic Karelian probably had dark hair and the Mesolithic man from Samara probably had blonde hair. A Mesolithic woman from Motala, Sweden was a carrier of the same blonde variant(but was just a carrier), as were two individuals from Neolithic Hungary.

Blonde hair very likely existed in EEF, SHG, EHG, and maybe even WHG. It's hard to trace it's popularity in modern pops to one ancient source.

Yetos
09-03-15, 23:18
hmm

is there anybody that believes or wonders about or if red hair came from neantherdal?

could neanderdalis to was a red haired?

LeBrok
10-03-15, 02:00
The Mesolithic Karelian probably had dark hair and the Mesolithic man from Samara probably had blonde hair. A Mesolithic woman from Motala, Sweden was a carrier of the same blonde variant(but was just a carrier), as were two individuals from Neolithic Hungary.

Blonde hair very likely existed in EEF, SHG, EHG, and maybe even WHG. It's hard to trace it's popularity in modern pops to one ancient source.
That's because it took all of their lighter mutations to produce today's blondest European.

Fire Haired14
10-03-15, 03:11
That's because it took all of their lighter mutations to produce today's blondest European.

That's possible I guess. Hirisplex may be totally irrelevant when looking at people from certain eras.

arvistro
10-03-15, 12:15
I was quite confident I would find nice table with average blond hair percents in Euro countries on the net :)
I found only few maps instead, and gonna use this one:
7138

Ok, guys sample was small, but fixed stuff for me nicely. Please find the graphs below from my Excel:
http://i57.tinypic.com/w7zzon.png

arvistro
10-03-15, 12:23
As you see "EHG vs Light Hairs" correlation is positive and quite high R-squared value - .8488. Line fits data rather nicely.
As you see "WHG vs Light Hairs" correlation is rather poor (R - 0.4588). Data seem scattered. And I wonder if any correlation there is not caused by correlation between WHG/EHG actually.
As you see using "SUM HG vs Light Hairs" correlation is in between. Still not as close and nice as EHG one, but improved from WHG.

This is by no means scientific or representative. Just quick excel playing :)

giuseppe rossi
10-03-15, 15:23
There is a strong correlation between UV radiation and pigmentation. Mesolitich hunther were generally swarthier than Neolitich farmers. Paleolitich hunthers like Mal'ta, Kostenki... were the swarthiest of the bunch.

arvistro
10-03-15, 15:36
New info apparently says, that at least one Meso hunter guy East of Baltic Sea was pretty much like Finns&Balts today.
He was nicknamed EHG and according to my quick correlation if you have more of his genes, you have higher chance to be blond.
I am pretty sure it would give same results for blue eyes, etc.

giuseppe rossi
10-03-15, 15:43
Here's a spreadsheet of all the red hair variants Geneticker tested (most of)the Haak genomes for and the indviduals who were carriers. I also put the percentage of carriers in the HGDP pops and ave a link to a 23andme article giving red hair varient percentages. R151C(rs1805007) is the most popular red hair variant in modern and ancient pops. R160W(rs1805008) is about equally popular in modern pops, but we only have one ancient example so far. The other red hair variants are very unpopular in modern and ancient pops.

~30-45% of north Euros(FIN, CEU, GBR) and ~10-15% of south Euros(TSI, IBS) are carriers of red hair via R151C(rs1805007) and R160W(rs1805008). R151C(rs1805007) was found in Upper Palaeolithic Russia, Mesolithic Sweden, Samara Yamna, German Bell Beaker, and German Urnfield. R160W(rs1805008) has only been found in Mesolithic Sweden.


Two African pops, all Latin American(Largely Spanish) pops, and one east Asian pop had red hair carriers. I bet the two African pops and maybe the east Asian pop have some European ancestry. All the south Asian pops had red hair carriers. I tend to think they don't get it from European ancestry but instead distant common ancestry with Europeans.


Because of the existence of red hair variants in Mesolithic Sweden and that there's documented existence of red hair in the middle east and central Asia, I think red hair has been around since the Upper Palaeolithic. The few statistics I've seen say it's most popular in north Europe(inclu. Northeast), and IMO in Europe it's Mesolithic(WHG?, SHG, EHG) descended.


Lumping Tuscans and Iberians in the same bunch is completely wrong, since the Tuscans are much lighter at least by looking at those data.

One would espect North Italians to be much lighter and similar to North Europeans.

Angela
10-03-15, 16:29
Lumping Tuscans and Iberians in the same bunch is completely wrong, since the Tuscans are much lighter at least by looking at those data.

One would espect North Italians to be much lighter and similar to North Europeans.

Who cares? Who cares where the mutation arose and who has more of it other than as a matter of intellectual curiosity? As soon as pigmentation is discussed, this sort of thing starts popping up. My father's whole family is blonde or red-haired and freckled and light eyed and I don't ever remember it being discussed as anything particularly valuable. It's just how they looked! If anything, they bemoaned not being able to tan and talked about bleaching creams for the freckles!

I don't get it and I never will. No disrespect to them at all, but who cares who looks more North European? Why would Italians, in particular, care about looking 'more' North European? As far as I'm concerned, this is a foreign ideology to Italy...a foreign ideology whose adoption led to one of the worst periods of Italian history.

Perhaps we should stick to the genetics and leave these value judgments and competitions over meaningless things out of it.

Ed. In the interest of full disclosure, my aunts did indeed bemoan all the freckles, and weren't particularly keen on having photosensitive skin, but they did love having that wavy copper red hair in their youth. It was just such a vibrant and unusual color. It also marked them as belonging to their particular family, which became a part of their identity, I think. As those were still superstitious times, they also told me that boys were waved off them as it was held to indicate a bad temper and strong will. Not that they cared...they were a strong and fearsome group of women, and rather proud of it. :smile:

ElHorsto
10-03-15, 16:33
I was quite confident I would find nice table with average blond hair percents in Euro countries on the net :)
I found only few maps instead, and gonna use this one:
7138

Ok, guys sample was small, but fixed stuff for me nicely. Please find the graphs below from my Excel:
http://i57.tinypic.com/w7zzon.png

Maybe an explanation is that WHG lived in more southern latitudes than EHG due to glaciation during LGM. Although this should affect light skin more than blonde hair. But maybe there is an indirect link between both traits.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/LGM-Mangerud-2003.jpg

giuseppe rossi
10-03-15, 16:51
Who cares? Who cares where the mutation arose and who has more of it other than as a matter of intellectual curiosity? As soon as pigmentation is discussed, this sort of thing starts popping up. My father's whole family is blonde or red-haired and freckled and light eyed and I don't ever remember it being discussed as anything particularly valuable. It's just how they looked! If anything, they bemoaned not being able to tan and talked about bleaching creams for the freckles!

I don't get it and I never will. No disrespect to them at all, but who cares who looks more North European? Why would Italians, in particular, care about looking 'more' North European? As far as I'm concerned, this is a foreign ideology to Italy...a foreign ideology whose adoption led to one of the worst periods of Italian history.

Perhaps we should stick to the genetics and leave these value judgments and competitions over meaningless things out of it.

I was just correcting the user Fire Haired 14. He was the one who manipulated genetic data to fit in his agenda.

Angela
10-03-15, 18:17
Could be, only future research can tell if they were mixed. Some may have been brown skinned and some may have been light skinned, even within the same family. I see that as a possibility.


I was just correcting the user Fire Haired 14. He was the one who manipulated genetic data to fit in his agenda.

I think Fire-Haired has been doing a rather professional job of presenting the data and drawing rather cautious and sound conclusions from it.

Sile
10-03-15, 19:12
Who cares? Who cares where the mutation arose and who has more of it other than as a matter of intellectual curiosity? As soon as pigmentation is discussed, this sort of thing starts popping up. My father's whole family is blonde or red-haired and freckled and light eyed and I don't ever remember it being discussed as anything particularly valuable. It's just how they looked! If anything, they bemoaned not being able to tan and talked about bleaching creams for the freckles!

I don't get it and I never will. No disrespect to them at all, but who cares who looks more North European? Why would Italians, in particular, care about looking 'more' North European? As far as I'm concerned, this is a foreign ideology to Italy...a foreign ideology whose adoption led to one of the worst periods of Italian history.

Perhaps we should stick to the genetics and leave these value judgments and competitions over meaningless things out of it.

Ed. In the interest of full disclosure, my aunts did indeed bemoan all the freckles, and weren't particularly keen on having photosensitive skin, but they did love having that wavy copper red hair in their youth. It was just such a vibrant and unusual color. It also marked them as belonging to their particular family, which became a part of their identity, I think. As those were still superstitious times, they also told me that boys were waved off them as it was held to indicate a bad temper and strong will. Not that they cared...they were a strong and fearsome group of women, and rather proud of it. :smile:

you can also continue with who cares about blonde hair or red hair, black hair or grey hair ................the only thing to study here is the green and hazel eyes group, since green eyes represent ONLY 2% of the worlds population you have a chance to pinpoint its origin FAR BETTER than any other group that Genetiker presented.
Then throw in the german areas plus ALL the LBK_EN ( which are german areas as well ) and you can get the BB group. The group that created BB

Drac II
10-03-15, 19:18
Lumping Tuscans and Iberians in the same bunch is completely wrong, since the Tuscans are much lighter at least by looking at those data.

One would espect North Italians to be much lighter and similar to North Europeans.

Actually it is wrong because "Iberia" is two separate countries indiscriminately lumped together as one but Tuscany is only a region isolated from the rest of the whole country it belongs to. And "those data" are "predictions" based on frequencies of selected single SNPs not on actual physical observation.

Drac II
10-03-15, 19:23
There is a strong correlation between UV radiation and pigmentation.

Unfortunately, it is not that clear-cut. Anthropological surveys of pigmentation show that sometimes this correlation does not happen and a population from an area with a higher UV radiation level can actually display lighter pigmentation than one in an area with a lower UV radiation level.

Drac II
10-03-15, 19:28
I was quite confident I would find nice table with average blond hair percents in Euro countries on the net :)
I found only few maps instead, and gonna use this one:
7138

Ok, guys sample was small, but fixed stuff for me nicely. Please find the graphs below from my Excel:
http://i57.tinypic.com/w7zzon.png

The "map" seems to be made by some amateur arbitrarily assigning values at his whim and fancy, and not based on actual pigmentation data for the countries involved. For example, he puts northwestern Spain as the blondest area of that country, yet actual anthropological surveys show that it is northeastern (Pyrenaic areas) Spain that has the highest frequencies of blondism.

Where did the data for the graph below come from?

arvistro
10-03-15, 20:30
EHG data from Angela's post above.
If you have better % for nations on list on light hair % or light eyes, Please share. Recalculation is easy.

Angela
10-03-15, 21:40
The frequency charts from the work of anthropologists fifty to one hundred years ago, particularly when they were all using different scales and definitions, are of limited usefulness. Nor do I care about the results of one skin reflectance test. The only measures currently available to us for ancient genomes which have a prayer of being objectively verifiable are properly done allele calls for known depigmentation mutations and the resulting predictions based on the latest Hirisplex algorithm. Everything else is too subjective.

Angela
10-03-15, 21:53
Here's a link to Geneticker's post with the phenotype SNPs.

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/03/07/phenotype-snps-from-prehistoric-europe/

Here's a link to many ancient individuals Hirisplex predictions.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1seNbDtuZKjZZguMgMF2XxPalVTa91VjyIDQPp2TWFjc/edit#gid=1862023606



Fire-Haired,
I don't see Samara HG on the Hair and Eye Color prediction chart. Am I missing it? I also see only one Yamnaya sample. Nor do I see predictions for skin color for any of the samples. Are there any plans to do that if it hasn't been done? If it has been done, could you link to the results?

Also, does the online program you ran provide you with probability ranges or tell you when there aren't enough snps for accuracy? For the SHG samples, for example, it says many missing snps. When I've seen runs on modern samples that are low quality the program usually says it can't predict the phenotype, or gives very low probabilities.

Thanks in advance.

Fire Haired14
10-03-15, 23:39
Fire-Haired,
I don't see Samara HG on the Hair and Eye Color prediction chart. Am I missing it? I also see only one Yamnaya sample. Nor do I see predictions for skin color for any of the samples. Are there any plans to do that if it hasn't been done? If it has been done, could you link to the results?

Also, does the online program you ran provide you with probability ranges or tell you when there aren't enough snps for accuracy? For the SHG samples, for example, it says many missing snps. When I've seen runs on modern samples that are low quality the program usually says it can't predict the phenotype, or gives very low probabilities.

Thanks in advance.

The Samara_HG had so few markers I didn't even try him, but I will later. Hirisplex is for hair and eye color only(see here (http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fsigenetics.com%2Farticle%2 FS1872-4973(12)00181-0%2Ffulltext&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNGJABW7ZZRg-STLZPoAUUXloa5UHg)). If I did skin color tests the Motalas would come out mixed dark and light, the two EHGs would come out light, and Ajv58 and all the WHGs would come out dark. The EEFs and all later samples would come out mostly light.

The online predictor gives you the option to say a certain SNP wasn't tested("NA"). You can give only a few SNP calls and the rest "NA" if you'd like and you'll still get a prediction. Most samples don't have all the calls at the moment(A phenotype study should come out eventually with the Haak genomes) but I put them in the predictor anyways. The Motalas are missing a lot of SNPs and some are key for hair color, so I put missing a lot of SNPs.

Fire Haired14
10-03-15, 23:41
Lumping Tuscans and Iberians in the same bunch is completely wrong, since the Tuscans are much lighter at least by looking at those data.

One would espect North Italians to be much lighter and similar to North Europeans.

They had a similar amount of carriers. Also, I grouped them with Iberians for the sake of convince. I don't think Tuscans and Iberians are the same at all.

Angela
11-03-15, 01:20
The Samara_HG had so few markers I didn't even try him, but I will later. Hirisplex is for hair and eye color only(see here (http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fsigenetics.com%2Farticle%2 FS1872-4973(12)00181-0%2Ffulltext&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNGJABW7ZZRg-STLZPoAUUXloa5UHg)). If I did skin color tests the Motalas would come out mixed dark and light, the two EHGs would come out light, and Ajv58 and all the WHGs would come out dark. The EEFs and all later samples would come out mostly light.

The online predictor gives you the option to say a certain SNP wasn't tested("NA"). You can give only a few SNP calls and the rest "NA" if you'd like and you'll still get a prediction. Most samples don't have all the calls at the moment(A phenotype study should come out eventually with the Haak genomes) but I put them in the predictor anyways. The Motalas are missing a lot of SNPs and some are key for hair color, so I put missing a lot of SNPs.

Perhaps if there are so few markers for some of these samples we should hold off on drawing solid conclusions until we get better quality reads and until they can be run through a professional Hirisplex system that gives accuracy parameters and also provides predictions for skin color. I assure you it's done all the time. Just my opinion.

Perhaps the upcoming papers will provide more clarity.

I agree with your prior posts to the effect that we should be cautious in terms of ascribing certain specific snps to certain groups until we have more data.

Drac II
11-03-15, 07:57
EHG data from Angela's post above.
If you have better % for nations on list on light hair % or light eyes, Please share. Recalculation is easy.

Look at the pigmentation data on hair, eyes and skin gathered by many anthropologists around the world for more than 100 years. Carleton Coon is a useful source for the English-speaker to start with (though he occasionally is a bit sloppy in how he presents the information and sometimes even surprisingly "forgets" what his own sources on the subject show!), as he compiled and summarized such information from a large number of these surveys, a lot of which are not available in English except through Coon's work. And I mean the actual data obtained, not "maps". None of them are entirely based on actual data and use assumptions and guesswork as well.

Drac II
11-03-15, 08:15
The frequency charts from the work of anthropologists fifty to one hundred years ago, particularly when they were all using different scales and definitions, are of limited usefulness. Nor do I care about the results of one skin reflectance test. The only measures currently available to us for ancient genomes which have a prayer of being objectively verifiable are properly done allele calls for known depigmentation mutations and the resulting predictions based on the latest Hirisplex algorithm. Everything else is too subjective.

When it comes to people who have been dead for hundreds or thousands of years there obviously is little choice but to speculate about their pigmentation using such markers, except perhaps in the case of hair, which under certain conditions can survive for a long time and therefore can actually be observed, but when it comes to living populations it is rather silly to go around making "predictions" about things which can be actually directly observed and measured through physical methods. Any of those pigmentation surveys based on actual observation and measurement is more informative and reliable than any such "predictions" based on a few markers. Unless one seriously wants to believe in such "results" as Orcadians being less light-eyed than Tuscans, or Andalusians and Orcadians being less-light skinned than Moroccans, Turks, Bedouins, Druze and Palestinians, and the like absurd things which contradict actual observation.

giuseppe rossi
11-03-15, 10:07
Look at the pigmentation data on hair, eyes and skin gathered by many anthropologists around the world for more than 100 years. Carleton Coon is a useful source for the English-speaker to start with (though he occasionally is a bit sloppy in how he presents the information and sometimes even surprisingly "forgets" what his own sources on the subject show!), as he compiled and summarized such information from a large number of these surveys, a lot of which are not available in English except through Coon's work. And I mean the actual data obtained, not "maps". None of them are entirely based on actual data and use assumptions and guesswork as well.

Coon said that Moroccans are much lighter skinned/haired/eyed than your beloved Iberian masters....

giuseppe rossi
11-03-15, 10:13
When it comes to people who have been dead for hundreds or thousands of years there obviously is little choice but to speculate about their pigmentation using such markers, except perhaps in the case of hair, which under certain conditions can survive for a long time and therefore can actually be observed, but when it comes to living populations it is rather silly to go around making "predictions" about things which can be actually directly observed and measured through physical methods. Any of those pigmentation surveys based on actual observation and measurement is more informative and reliable than any such "predictions" based on a few markers. Unless one seriously wants to believe in such "results" as Orcadians being less light-eyed than Tuscans, or Andalusians and Orcadians being less-light skinned than Moroccans, Turks, Bedouins, Druze and Palestinians, and the like absurd things which contradict actual observation.

Of course predictions based on single alleles are quite rubbish, but the ones based on multiple alleles like the Hirisplex system have been confirmed to be very reliable when used with a large number of European samples by several peer reviewed studies.

Direct observetions are often biased especially if the authors are of the same ethnicity as the population studied.

giuseppe rossi
11-03-15, 10:18
Unfortunately, it is not that clear-cut. Anthropological surveys of pigmentation show that sometimes this correlation does not happen and a population from an area with a higher UV radiation level can actually display lighter pigmentation than one in an area with a lower UV radiation level.

The reverse is also true. North Africans should be as light as the darkest South Europeans, but actually they are as dark as South Asians and Central Americans, because a good deal of their ancestry (up to 50%) derives from Sub Saharan Africa and Southern Arabia.

Maleth
11-03-15, 10:25
Im not sure why all this Bickering on different shades of skin colour! Everything out of its context can be harmful and percentages do not really mean much at the end of the day. People are what they are and probably have a good reason hugged by mother nature to be that way. I think the scope of this thread is a genuine curiosity of what Mesolithic people looked like.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2451113/Liverpool-Fashion-Week-organisers-ban-models-using-sunbeds-attempting-stop-copycat-skin-cancer.html

arvistro
11-03-15, 10:45
To me I solved the question. It is EHG who dispersed typical Finnish around the planet once it jumped on Yamna IE horse.

giuseppe rossi
11-03-15, 11:08
To me I solved the question. It is EHG who dispersed typical Finnish around the planet once it jumped on Yamna IE horse.

EHG and Finns are worlds apart. EHG was pure North Asian Hunther Gatherer while Finns have 30% of Near Eastern Levantine ancestry and 10% of Mongoloid East Asian ancestry.

Angela
11-03-15, 13:23
The topic is the Mesolithic source of pale pigmentation in modern Europe...stick to it.

Kristiina
11-03-15, 19:17
EHG and Finns are worlds apart. EHG was pure North Asian Hunther Gatherer while Finns have 30% of Near Eastern Levantine ancestry and 10% of Mongoloid East Asian ancestry.

Finns seem to be as Siberian as MA-1 (c. 5%), and considering the high amount of Amerindian in MA-1, he surely looked quite East Asian. Please compare these K15 population averages:: (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19c_bZjUV_RouKyGyLHmMDw57WwAVabXFJOaso_gcuRE/edit#gid=1872836177)

Finnish: North Sea 29.36, Atlantic 17.42 Baltic 21.95 Eastern Euro 18.78 West Med 0.06 East Med 0.36 Red Sea 0.14 South Asian 0.57 Southeast Asian 0.9 Siberian 5.3 Amerindian 0.91 Oceanian 0.52

MA-1: North Sea 2.9, Atlantic 0 Baltic 4.11 Eastern Euroe 34.45 West Med 0 West Asia 0.01 East Med 0.8 Red Sea 0 South Asian 28.61 Southeast Asian 0 Siberian 4.61 Amerindian 21.16 Oceanian 3.37

I do not think that Mesolithic North Asian Hunther Gatherers looked like what you think they looked like.

Kristiina
11-03-15, 20:24
Greenland Eskimos are probably quite close to ancient northeast Asians as they have a minimal amount of African and Near Eastern ancestry and only a small amount of European and South Asian ancestry and their Southeast Asian ancestry is also relatively small (8.57). They have the following averages:
East Greenlanders: North Sea 0.18, Atlantic 0.02 Baltic 0.12 Eastern Euro 4.19 West Med 0 West Asia 0.04 East Med 0.01 Red Sea 0.02 South Asian 1.46 Southeast Asian 8.57 Siberian 43.23 Amerindian 41.76 Oceanian 0.33
We must also keep in mind that the above Siberian and Amerindian components must be old as they were found already in MA-1 that lived in Siberia 24 000 years ago.

Drac II
12-03-15, 02:12
Coon said that Moroccans are much lighter skinned/haired/eyed than your beloved Iberian masters....

No, he did not, he only said that about isolated groups of Berbers who were very depigmented, and he also says that they are lighter than at least your beloved southern Italians.

Drac II
12-03-15, 02:18
Of course predictions based on single alleles are quite rubbish, but the ones based on multiple alleles like the Hirisplex system have been confirmed to be very reliable when used with a large number of European samples by several peer reviewed studies.

Direct observetions are often biased especially if the authors are of the same ethnicity as the population studied.

We already saw the results of Hirisplex in other threads where you were trying to peddle this stuff under the name "Joey" (now banned), and they were not really impressive. French and Northern Italians more blue-eyed than Orcadians? Sardinians darker-eyed than Druze and Palestinians? Maybe in The Twilight Zone, but in the real world, not a chance.

Sile
12-03-15, 07:58
We already saw the results of Hirisplex in other threads where you were trying to peddle this stuff under the name "Joey" (now banned), and they were not really impressive. French and Northern Italians more blue-eyed than Orcadians? Sardinians darker-eyed than Druze and Palestinians? Maybe in The Twilight Zone, but in the real world, not a chance.

yep, traits like "joey"


was Joey also Adamo?

giuseppe rossi
12-03-15, 10:00
We already saw the results of Hirisplex in other threads where you were trying to peddle this stuff under the name "Joey" (now banned), and they were not really impressive. French and Northern Italians more blue-eyed than Orcadians? Sardinians darker-eyed than Druze and Palestinians? Maybe in The Twilight Zone, but in the real world, not a chance.

Which part of "large number of samples" don't you understand? There are 13 North Italians and 8 Tuscans in the HGDP database. Reductio ad absurdum only when it fits your agenda I see.

On the other hand all the recent papers are using the Hirisplex...

giuseppe rossi
12-03-15, 10:03
No, he did not, he only said that about isolated groups of Berbers who were very depigmented, and he also says that they are lighter than at least your beloved southern Italians.

But I am not the one here praising Coon....

Angela
12-03-15, 17:01
We already saw the results of Hirisplex in other threads where you were trying to peddle this stuff under the name "Joey" (now banned), and they were not really impressive. French and Northern Italians more blue-eyed than Orcadians? Sardinians darker-eyed than Druze and Palestinians? Maybe in The Twilight Zone, but in the real world, not a chance.


I regret to inform you that in the "real world", law enforcement doesn't run around interviewing witnesses with Luchan scales and copies of Coon in their hands. In the real world, dna is collected at crime scenes and run through Hirisplex calculators, which, if the sample and the "reads" are good, and the latest calculators are used, result in phenotypic predictions which are very accurate. Either Spain is in the Dark Ages in this regard, or, what is more likely, you are just uninformed. In the real world of scientific research, dna analysis to get reads on pigmentation and Hirisplex calculators are used in conjuction to study the occurrence and spread of different pigmentation profiles. I think it's time to enter the 20th century, never mind the 21st century, regardless of whether the results are to your liking.

I have personally posted numerous scientific studies which have addressed the accuracy of these calculators by comparing the results using reflectance tests on the actual test subjects. There are even studies which show actual causality rather than just correlation. You obviously haven't read them, or you would not be making these kinds of uninformed and unpersuasive comments. I would suggest that you do so. Use the search engine.

Regardless, the topic is not the accuracy, according to your own subjective opinion, of the results of such tests on HGDP or 1000 genomes samples. The topic is the "Mesolithic" source of pale pigmentation in modern Europe. Stick to the topic and stop trying to derail the thread into the ongoing and, in my opinion, ridiculous and I would go so far as to say 'disgusting' Iberian/Italian anthrofora war as to which group is "fairer". This also applies to the Italian posters who are engaging in the same kind of behavior.

Ed. In terms of the predictions which have been made by hobbyists on the genomes of the ancient samples used by Haak et al, I think we should be very cautious about drawing any hard and fast conclusions, given the fact that the samples are not very high quality in some cases, missing many snps, and the genomes were not run through a high quality, professional Hirisplex calculator. Hopefully, as there are some scientific papers in the pipeline, people's curiosity will be satisfied when these papers are published.

Drac II
13-03-15, 02:41
Which part of "large number of samples" don't you understand? There are 13 North Italians and 8 Tuscans in the HGDP database. Reductio ad absurdum only when it fits your agenda I see.

On the other hand all the recent papers are using the Hirisplex...

It doesn't seem like the authors of those studies are very concerned with such numbers, as they have no qualms about using smaller samples and parading the results around. Some of the anomalous results they show certainly do not inspire too much confidence in the system.

Drac II
13-03-15, 02:42
But I am not the one here praising Coon....

No, but you are misrepresenting what he actually said...

Drac II
13-03-15, 02:47
I regret to inform you that in the "real world", law enforcement doesn't run around interviewing witnesses with Luchan scales and copies of Coon in their hands. In the real world, dna is collected at crime scenes and run through Hirisplex calculators, which, if the sample and the "reads" are good, and the latest calculators are used, result in phenotypic predictions which are very accurate. Either Spain is in the Dark Ages in this regard, or, what is more likely, you are just uninformed. In the real world of scientific research, dna analysis to get reads on pigmentation and Hirisplex calculators are used in conjuction to study the occurrence and spread of different pigmentation profiles. I think it's time to enter the 20th century, never mind the 21st century, regardless of whether the results are to your liking.

I have personally posted numerous scientific studies which have addressed the accuracy of these calculators by comparing the results using reflectance tests on the actual test subjects. There are even studies which show actual causality rather than just correlation. You obviously haven't read them, or you would not be making these kinds of uninformed and unpersuasive comments. I would suggest that you do so. Use the search engine.

Regardless, the topic is not the accuracy, according to your own subjective opinion, of the results of such tests on HGDP or 1000 genomes samples. The topic is the "Mesolithic" source of pale pigmentation in modern Europe. Stick to the topic and stop trying to derail the thread into the ongoing and, in my opinion, ridiculous and I would go so far as to say 'disgusting' Iberian/Italian anthrofora war as to which group is "fairer". This also applies to the Italian posters who are engaging in the same kind of behavior.

Ed. In terms of the predictions which have been made by hobbyists on the genomes of the ancient samples used by Haak et al, I think we should be very cautious about drawing any hard and fast conclusions, given the fact that the samples are not very high quality in some cases, missing many snps, and the genomes were not run through a high quality, professional Hirisplex calculator. Hopefully, as there are some scientific papers in the pipeline, people's curiosity will be satisfied when these papers are published.

As you suggested yourself, they do that when there is only DNA to go by. In such cases physical anthropology can't help. But rest assured that when they have the suspects or victims in hand, forensic anthropology will be there aiding the investigation, like always. They are not going to depend on anything giving them "predictions" when they can very easily examine such things as pigmentation simply by observing it directly.

I asked you in a previous thread which where these studies that supposedly have confirmed the accuracy of these "predictions" by using such things as reflectance, but the only study that I can recall unquestionably doing so was Candille et al. 2012, and you can judge how reliable the "predictions" came out to be from their actual physical results. About as "reliable" as many of those "predictions" based on climatological factors in Jablonski & Chaplin 2000 which did not withstand scrutiny by means of actual skin reflectance measurements.

I have no problem sticking to the topic of Mesolithic pigmentation, but someone else brought up the topic of pigmentation among contemporary populations.

Hauteville
13-03-15, 18:35
yep, traits like "joey"


was Joey also Adamo?
No, Joey is a my friend and he is a great, i also know Adamo and he is a t.roll.
Candile et al. with Sandra Beleza is a fraud and really pathetic, it's much better the study of Lucotte.

giuseppe rossi
13-03-15, 18:56
^^

Have you seen the photos of Sandra Beleza??

LOL

She looks hardcore Mexican and made Portuguese lighter than Poles on her manipulated "study".

Hauteville
13-03-15, 18:59
^^

Have you seen the photos of Sandra Beleza??

LOL

She looks hardcore Mexican and made Portuguese lighter than Poles on her manipulated "study".
Yes LOL Hard to say that Portuguese are lighter than Polish with this face :laughing:

Vallicanus
13-03-15, 19:37
No, Joey is a my friend and he is a great, i also know Adamo and he is a t.roll.
Candile et al. with Sandra Beleza is a fraud and really pathetic, it's much better the study of Lucotte.

Joey C. is a racist, anti-Semitic poster who twists the facts.

Hauteville
13-03-15, 19:49
Joey C. is a racist, anti-Semitic poster who twists the facts.
You really don't know him.

Drac II
14-03-15, 04:45
^^

Have you seen the photos of Sandra Beleza??

LOL

She looks hardcore Mexican and made Portuguese lighter than Poles on her manipulated "study".


http://med.stanford.edu/tanglab/people/personal.html

She is "hardcore Mexican" in the same fantasies of yours where the study was "manipulated". And Beleza was in fact the only Portuguese researcher involved in the study, the rest are from other countries.

giuseppe rossi
19-03-15, 16:12
You really don't know him.

He has even called Angela racist.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29211-New-map-of-mtDNA-haplogroup-L?p=427382#post427382

Angela
19-03-15, 17:55
He has even called Angela racist.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29211-New-map-of-mtDNA-haplogroup-L?p=427382#post427382

I found your analogy both inept and offensive; I have removed it.

Nor do I need you to defend me against the likes of a poster like Vallicanus. You are both on very thin ice.