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Hauteville
13-03-15, 19:04
Thread for them.

Pax Augusta
28-04-15, 20:41
I really appreciate it, but probably not the most appropriate section though.

Hauteville
04-05-15, 11:58
A video
http://www.raiscuola.rai.it/articoli/popolazioni-italiche-antiche/4209/default.aspx

Angela
04-05-15, 15:43
A video
http://www.raiscuola.rai.it/articoli/popolazioni-italiche-antiche/4209/default.aspx


Grazie, Hauteville,

I would just state, however, that in my opinion while all the Italian people can trace some of their descent to the Italics, the Italics don't represent the majority of the ancestry of the Italian people if the Italics were still very "Yamnaya" like by the time they got to Italy.The highest percentages for that ancestry in Europe are in the far north and are only about 50% even if you take the Haak et al modeling as final. There was lots of pre-existing ancestry, for one thing. Of course, this was done before the recent advances in adna testing and modeling.

I think as more samples are found and used the percentage will drop from the 50% figure even in northern Europe and northeastern Europe.

That said, it amazes me how few people outside of Italy connect it with the Bronze Age migrations, or the later Celtic ones, for that matter, even some people with an interest in population genetics. Perhaps one of the reasons that Italians are, in general, more knowledgeable about their own history, even ancient history, than many people I encounter in the U.S. is because of a national network like RA!, which posts a lot of excellent documentaries, travel shows etc.

For most of the year I am limited to RAI for Italian television programming, and I'm a great consumer of those documentaries, on history, art, architecture etc. I like their travel shows highlighting different parts of Italy as well.

For non-Italian speakers, the visuals in this particular video are quite good even if you can't understand the text. Very nice shots of the Lake Dwellings, for example and Bronze Age finds.

Sorry, I've already reached my maximum thumbs up for the day and it's not even 10AM!

giuseppe rossi
04-05-15, 15:50
Yamna pastoralists were Proto Indo Europeans, while Italics were Indo Europeized Central Europeans.

According to Haak et al, Tuscans have about 30% PIE admixture.

http://i.imgur.com/MUhUZ3T.png

Angela
04-05-15, 17:08
Yamna pastoralists were Proto Indo Europeans, while Italics were Indo Europeized Central Europeans.

According to Haak et al, Tuscans have about 30% PIE admixture.

http://i.imgur.com/MUhUZ3T.png

Yes, I know. Since I'm always about midway between Bergamo and TSI (Firenze) in all these tests, I figure I probably score around 25-30% if that modeling is correct. I am slowly trying to come to grips with it. :) *

My father had me convinced when I was a young girl that we were pure descendents of the Romans and the Etruscans, and they were autocthonous in Italy since Adam and Eve. :) Well, not really, but it sometimes sounded that way! I can tell you that he was no great fan of the Celts! He thought we chased them all back over the Alps. That obviously wasn't the case, and there are the earlier Italic migrations, from which sprang, in part, the Romans, to consider.

Ed. * That was a joke, in case the smiley wasn't enough of a clue.

Vallicanus
04-05-15, 17:25
@ Giuseppe

I agree. Italics were Indo-Europeanised Central Europeans.

@Angela

Polybius wrote that he witnessed the Roman expulsion of the Gauls from Northern Italy apart from a few areas in the Alps (2nd century BC).

Angela
04-05-15, 18:13
@ Giuseppe

I agree. Italics were Indo-Europeanised Central Europeans.

@Angela

Polybius wrote that he witnessed the Roman expulsion of the Gauls from Northern Italy apart from a few areas in the Alps (2nd century BC).

I know. He was wrong. The Romans also said they exterminated all the Alpi Apuani and moved them all to central Italy. That was wrong too. Beware of groups boasting about their conquests. Check and verify.

To say that Italics were Indo-Europeanised Central Europeans obscures more than it illuminates. Which Central Europeans, and when? "Central European" is a modern term for a modern group of people. It's meaningless in this context.

We have, from Haak et al, the percentages for Unetice, and for Bell Beaker. (see above) We also have people who have provided their estimates for the autosomal composition of Urnfield. The actuality is somewhere around there, perhaps, but there is no way to tell until we have samples from the early Italics. This isn't about current Central Europeans, who are a mix of their own from various migrations, so that comment is inaccurate and misleading in my opinion.

Regardless, whether from the Italici and related groups, or from the Celtici, or what is far more likely, both, and based on the Haak et al modeling, the Tuscans are indeed about 30% Yamnaya Indo-European, not "Indo-Europeanized" Central Europeans, and the Bergamo types a little bit less because they have more WHG.

My more nuanced point is that I think those percentages for all Europeans may change slightly in the future.

Pax Augusta
05-05-15, 03:22
I think that there is a bit of confusion between the Italics and the Indo-European migrations to Italy. I mean, clearly all the Italic tribes were originally Indo-European and spoke an Indo-European language but not all the Italics probably, from a certain point onward, were Indo-European as not all the Indo-European people that settled in Italy became Italics.

The Indo-European migrations to Italy were numerous, "endless" according to Devoto, occurred in a wide span of time, ranging from small groups of people and to the most consistent waves of immigration.



I know. He was wrong. The Romans also said they exterminated all the Alpi Apuani and moved them all to central Italy. That was wrong too. Beware of groups boasting about their conquests. Check and verify..

Angela, probably you're refering to the Ligures Bebiani and Ligures Corneliani deported in Sannio, south Italy.


http://news.sciencemag.org/sites/default/files/sn-languages672H.jpg

http://news.sciencemag.org/archaeology/2015/02/mysterious-indo-european-homeland-may-have-been-steppes-ukraine-and-russia


The sound of Proto-Indo-Europeanhttp://news.sciencemag.org/2015/02/sound-proto-indo-european

Hauteville
07-05-15, 11:03
Here a very realistic map.

http://s29.postimg.org/yjfnuxalz/s_H9_Ah_Po.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/sihyxunzn/full/)

Angela
07-05-15, 20:29
Thanks, Hauteville,

Do you have a citation for the paper from which that came? I wasn't able to find it. I think they're missing the "Celtic" incursions into Liguria.

I have this on order. Thank goodness for Mother's Day. :)
Landscape-Ethnicity-and-Identity in the Archaic Mediterranean:
http://www.oxbowbooks.com/oxbow/landscape-ethnicity-and-identity-in-the-archaic-mediterranean-area.html

One of the articles is available on line:
Approaching Ethnicity and Landscapes in Pre-Roman Italy-the middle Tiber Valley
https://www.academia.edu/5452767/Approaching_ethnicity_and_landscapes_in_pre-Roman_Italy_the_middle_Tiber_valley\

This book is available online as a google book:
Social Networks and Regional Identity in Bronze Age Italy
https://books.google.com/books?id=I-wRBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=Social+Networks+and+Regional+Identity+in+Bronze +Age+Italy&source=bl&ots=-LkhPZa9RR&sig=quHLJYUqocUTJYbVlKhoqDX-T2s&hl=en&sa=X&ei=j6hLVdrUMMiZsQTP4YDwAw&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Social%20Networks%20and%20Regional%20Identity%20 in%20Bronze%20Age%20Italy&f=false

There's a sample of this online as well:
Rome and the Western Greeks 350 BC to 200 AD:
https://books.google.com/books?id=FH2BGdjDA0EC&pg=PR3&lpg=PR3&dq=Rome+and+the+Western+Greeks,+350+BC+-+AD+200:Conquest+and+Acculturation+in+...&source=bl&ots=5iizVy5AbM&sig=9wX89DLy2mOjiqMpwuHmxlCG0CA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XqtLVeCDCIO_sQSc4oBQ&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Rome%20and%20the%20Western%20Greeks%2C%20350%20B C%20-%20AD%20200%3AConquest%20and%20Acculturation%20in% 20...&f=false

There's also this:
State Formation and Ethnicities from 8th to 5th Century BC in Central Italy:
http://www.sociostudies.org/journal/articles/140601/

Hauteville
07-05-15, 21:02
Well the original Ligures from Liguria were later influenced by the Celts even in the language while the Ligures of Sicily were later hellenized mostly.

Angela
07-05-15, 22:16
Well the original Ligures from Liguria were later influenced by the Celts even in the language while the Ligures of Sicily were later hellenized mostly.

That's my point. That particular map doesn't show the Celtici presence in Liguria.

This Davide Delfino paper is interesting for a number of reasons (nice maps of the Ligurian tribal areas, pictures of the pottery, descriptions of the swords and jewelry etc), but I cite it for his conclusions based on Iron Age burials that the Celtici had settled in Liguria in the first millennium BC. Not that this conclusion is at all controversial, of course.

https://www.academia.edu/1912567/BETWEEN_ETRUSCAN_GREEKS_AND_CELTS_CHANGEMENT_IN_TH E_GOOD_GRAVES_OF_THE_LIGURIAN_IRON_AGE_NECROPOLIS

He mentions, for example, a necropolis near Ameglia in far eastern Liguria, and says, "It is plausible to think of a group of warriors came as a result of the Celtic invasions of northern Italy in the IV century BC. and implanted in eastern Liguria contracting marriages with native women."

I think maybe I should offer some translation services. :)

This is another good one:
Celti e Liguri nel territorio di Parma-Daniele Vitale
https://www.academia.edu/1786154/Celti_e_Liguri_nel_territorio_di_Parma

Pax Augusta
08-05-15, 11:26
"Approaching ethnicity and landscapes in pre-Roman Italy: the middle Tiber Valley" (from Landscape, Ethnicity and Identity in the Archaic Mediterranean Area, Oxbow Books 2012)

https://www.academia.edu/5452767/Approaching_ethnicity_and_landscapes_in_pre-Roman_Italy_the_middle_Tiber_valley

Introduction: Contextualizing ethnicity

https://www.academia.edu/987289/Landscape_Ethnicity_and_Identity_in_the_pre-roman_Mediterranean_Oxford_Oxbow_2012


(https://www.academia.edu/987289/Landscape_Ethnicity_and_Identity_in_the_pre-roman_Mediterranean_Oxford_Oxbow_2012) Gender identities and cultural identities in thepre-Roman Veneto


https://www.academia.edu/667153/Gender_identities_in_the_Veneto_in_the_1st_millenn ium_BC

(https://www.academia.edu/667153/Gender_identities_in_the_Veneto_in_the_1st_millenn ium_BC)

Sile
08-05-15, 12:27
http://mefra.revues.org/2503

This contribution proposes a theoretical framework for the investigation of ethnicity, group membership and socio-political change in the Italian region of Veneto between the Final Bronze Age and the Early Iron Age (approximately 12th – 9th centuries BC).

Regio X
08-05-15, 17:48
http://mefra.revues.org/2503

This contribution proposes a theoretical framework for the investigation of ethnicity, group membership and socio-political change in the Italian region of Veneto between the Final Bronze Age and the Early Iron Age (approximately 12th – 9th centuries BC).
I can't open it. "Gateway Time-out". Could you send me the text?

Sile
08-05-15, 20:00
I can't open it. "Gateway Time-out". Could you send me the text?

maybe because its a combination of many papers, like this below is one

http://www.academia.edu/221297/Family_Relationships_in_Late_Bronze_Age_Iron_Age_a nd_Early_Roman_Veneto_Italy_._Preliminary_Consider ations_on_the_Basis_of_Osteological_Analysis_and_E pigraphy


(http://www.academia.edu/221297/Family_Relationships_in_Late_Bronze_Age_Iron_Age_a nd_Early_Roman_Veneto_Italy_._Preliminary_Consider ations_on_the_Basis_of_Osteological_Analysis_and_E pigraphy)http://www.academia.edu/Documents/in/Final_Bronze-_Iron_Age_Veneto_Region


http://www.pia-journal.co.uk/article/view/pia.462/620


(http://www.pia-journal.co.uk/article/view/pia.462/620)http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0169131713001890

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=NIj2AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA132&lpg=PA132&dq=Veneto+between+the+Final+Bronze+Age+and+the+Ear ly+Iron+Age&source=bl&ots=qTC5D-CuwO&sig=eFDexJ7-HzcxaAc5thcBbVb8bdU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wvpMVa3XK4Ly8QWqw4CYBg&ved=0CBwQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=Veneto%20between%20the%20Final%20Bronze%20Age%20 and%20the%20Early%20Iron%20Age&f=false



there are many more which I missed , i do not understand why you cannot open it
(https://books.google.com.au/books?id=NIj2AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA132&lpg=PA132&dq=Veneto+between+the+Final+Bronze+Age+and+the+Ear ly+Iron+Age&source=bl&ots=qTC5D-CuwO&sig=eFDexJ7-HzcxaAc5thcBbVb8bdU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wvpMVa3XK4Ly8QWqw4CYBg&ved=0CBwQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=Veneto%20between%20the%20Final%20Bronze%20Age%20 and%20the%20Early%20Iron%20Age&f=false)

Regio X
08-05-15, 21:41
Thanks, Sile!

Angela
20-01-18, 19:44
I don't think this has ever been posted. If it has, I can't find it, and anyway I think this is the good thread for it.

It is a study trying to see if they can trace the forced migration of the Apuani to Sannio after the defeat of the Apuani by the Romans.

They start with the assumption that the Apuani were a certain type of U-152, and go from there. The methodology is old, using STRS, but they also use 43 y snps.

That isn't a bad assumption necessarily, as in some of these mountain communities the frequency reaches 78%. On the other hand, mountain communities subject to drift are going to have these kinds of high numbers.

I applaud the attempt, but without ancient dna from the Apuani and very resolved subclade analysis I don't think anything is conclusive.

See:
S. Bertoncini et al:

"A Y Variant Which Traces the Genetic Heritage of Ligures Tribes"
http://www.pagepressjournals.org/index.php/jbr/article/viewFile/4087/3590

"This suggests that surviving Y chromosomes of the Ligures deported in the Sannio by the Ligures, if any, are diluted in the current male pool."

Jovialis
31-03-18, 17:42
I found this interesting map of settlements in Italy, during 350 BC.

Urbanism in Ancient Peninsular Italy: developing a methodology for a database analysis of higher order settlements (350 BCE to 300 CE)

http://intarch.ac.uk/journal/issue40/2/index.htmlhttps://i.imgur.com/tARy19H.jpg

Here's one after Roman colonization. But unfortunately, this is the biggest resolution I could find:

https://i.imgur.com/AkcxinJ.jpg


http://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/archives/view/romurbital_mc_2015/

Angela
31-03-18, 18:32
I found this interesting map of settlements in Italy, during 350 BC.

Urbanism in Ancient Peninsular Italy: developing a methodology for a database analysis of higher order settlements (350 BCE to 300 CE)

http://intarch.ac.uk/journal/issue40/2/index.htmlhttps://i.imgur.com/tARy19H.jpg

Here's one after Roman colonization. But unfortunately, this is the biggest resolution I could find:

https://i.imgur.com/AkcxinJ.jpg


http://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/archives/view/romurbital_mc_2015/

Great find, Jovialis! This is definitely a keeper, especially when, hopefully, the ancient dna starts coming in...

Maleth
31-03-18, 19:15
Great find, Jovialis! This is definitely a keeper, especially when, hopefully, the ancient dna starts coming in...

It would have been more complete if it included Sicily and Sardinia while they were at it :)

Jovialis
31-03-18, 19:15
Great find, Jovialis! This is definitely a keeper, especially when, hopefully, the ancient dna starts coming in...

With the cost-effectiveness in processing ancient DNA, I'm eagerly anticipating the day it arrives.

Pax Augusta
01-04-18, 10:43
I found this interesting map of settlements in Italy, during 350 BC. Urbanism in Ancient Peninsular Italy: developing a methodology for a database analysis of higher order settlements (350 BCE to 300 CE) http://intarch.ac.uk/journal/issue40/2/index.htmlhttps://i.imgur.com/tARy19H.jpg


Thanks for sharing, Jovialis. Is there a list of the names of the settlements in that map? It would be interesting to find it, because many of those settlements did not belong to one civilization, but they go through several phases.

Interesting as 50% of the Etruscan settlements were actually in the north and center of Lazio, with the highest concentration of all Italy there.

I see in Emilia Bologna, Marzabotto and perhaps Monte Bibele or Casalecchio di Reno (I do not understand the third near Bologna what it is exactly but based on the map's position should be Casalecchio) all labeled as Gallic, but until the 4th century BC those were all Villanovan and Etruscan. And Etruscan testimonies also exist in the north-western part of Emilia. Modena (Mutna) was also Etruscan. The other Gallic settlements in Emilia could be Piacenza and Parma?

In the Adriatic side I see labeled as Etruscan (perhaps) Adria, Spina, Verucchio, Cesena and Ravenna, but the Etruscan dots are four. The Gallic dot should a place on the Romagna coast. Which one?

Adria, on the borders between Veneto and Emilia-Romagna, was Etruscan (and not only Etruscan, it was a port) but around the 3rd century BC was likely occupied by the Gauls-Celts. Maybe it's not even on the map, because it could be a little further north.

Spina was one of the few Etruscan settlements there to overcome the Gallic/Celtic invasion of the 4th century BC, and was active until the 2nd century BC.

Verucchio, first Villanovan and then Etruscan, at the end of the 4th century BC is thought that came under the influence or rule of the Umbrians. And a similar fate will have had any nearby settlement, beset by Gauls and Umbrians.

Cesena and Ravenna are thought to be of Etruscan origin because of the name (in particular because of the common suffix -ena), but are there any great testimonies there? I do not think the smoking gun has yet been found. They were certainly (also) Umbrian from a certain point onwards.

One of the most interesting civilizations in central Italy is the Faliscans, of which we do not know enough. They spoke a language similar to Latin, living on the edge of the Etruscan territories, and surrounded by everyone: Etruscans, Umbrians, Sabines, Latins, Aequians. In their cities (Capena, Falerii Novi, Falerii Veteres...) are found both inscriptions in Faliscan and in Etruscan (and the population had both Faliscan and Etruscan names). In one of the Faliscan centers, I do not remember which one, there are more Etruscan inscriptions and for this reason I believe it is labeled as Etruscan in the map.

The situation in Abruzzo is very interesting, showing great internal diversification. Perhaps due also to the type of Abruzzo territory.

Too bad the map does not include Sicily, Sardinia and the rest of northern Italy.

https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/image/transf/none/path/sbcc322eba1ad76ab/image/if528346b483c962b/version/1385155172/image.jpg

Angela
03-04-18, 18:04
Pax,
In this part of the link there's some language about the "ethnic" assignment being the immediate pre-Roman one.

http://intarch.ac.uk/journal/issue40/2/4-3.html

AdeoF
03-04-18, 19:36
I found this interesting map of settlements in Italy, during 350 BC.

Urbanism in Ancient Peninsular Italy: developing a methodology for a database analysis of higher order settlements (350 BCE to 300 CE)

http://intarch.ac.uk/journal/issue40/2/index.htmlhttps://i.imgur.com/tARy19H.jpg

Well yeah this map is understandable. The Celts where more north even the admixture shows this nowadays. What i find interesting is that so many different groups where close from each other and then the romans took over!
It's a nice easy map

Salento
03-04-18, 20:38
Well yeah this map is understandable. The Celts where more north even the admixture shows this nowadays. What i find interesting is that so many different groups where close from each other and then the romans took over!
It's a nice easy map
Looking at the Map is understandable that a viewer might get the wrong impression. In Reality by that time most tribes were not that different.
Here is an elementary grade generalize quick Info:
Short facts about Italic tribes
“....In the V century, vast majority of tribes were Italics, while Sabine tribes had a special significance. Those were tribes: Umbri, Osci and Latins. At the same time, in the far north and southeast stayed Illyrian people, whose origin was from the Balkans and also they had some other origins like Venetians, Iapyges, etc. …)...”
https://www.shorthistory.org/ancient-civilizations/ancient-rome/short-facts-about-italic-tribes/

Sile
03-04-18, 21:06
Well yeah this map is understandable. The Celts where more north even the admixture shows this nowadays. What i find interesting is that so many different groups where close from each other and then the romans took over!
It's a nice easy map
Venetic and raetic people never took celtic language but did take some customs like dress and tattooing.........but the illyrians from Austria ( halstatt and Noricum ) did accept fully celtic traits, dress, tattooing ,burial styles from basically the start of the iron-age and where fully celtinized by the time of the roman invasion of the area around 15 BC

dominique_nuit
03-04-18, 21:07
Slightly off topic, but how much is known about the Bruttians? Were they an Italic tribe or did they perhaps evolve out of the Oenetrians? Were they primarily a G2a-centered group or R1b-affiliated?

AdeoF
04-04-18, 01:37
Looking at the Map is understandable that a viewer might get the wrong impression. In Reality by that time most tribes were not that different.
Here is an elementary grade generalize quick Info:
Short facts about Italic tribes
“....In the V century, vast majority of tribes were Italics, while Sabine tribes had a special significance. Those were tribes: Umbri, Osci and Latins. At the same time, in the far north and southeast stayed Illyrian people, whose origin was from the Balkans and also they had some other origins like Venetians, Iapyges, etc. …)...”


Great website which explains the tribes of Italy because they where in one area but due to over population they had to move out a mix in to other tribes, that can explain even the different haplogroups in Italy. But most of them are IE right?? i know the Etruscans was not


Venetic and raetic people never took celtic language but did take some customs like dress and tattooing.........but the illyrians from Austria ( halstatt and Noricum ) did accept fully celtic traits, dress, tattooing ,burial styles from basically the start of the iron-age and where fully celtinized by the time of the roman invasion of the area around 15 BC
Yep that makes sense since the Venetic area did have a Celtic background but there is not much Celtic words in the Venetian language. Hmm what you said reminded of me of a place starting with the letter G....

Salento
04-04-18, 02:15
@Adeof Most of them are IE.
About the Etruscan origins, I don’t know for sure.
Others hopefully can Revise your Statement of the Etruscans not been IE with a certain level of confidence.

LATGAL
04-04-18, 11:20
Here's one after Roman colonization. But unfortunately, this is the biggest resolution I could find:

https://i.imgur.com/AkcxinJ.jpg


http://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/archives/view/romurbital_mc_2015/

https://i.imgur.com/vWdehu2.jpg
(https://i.imgur.com/vWdehu2.jpg)
http://intarch.ac.uk/journal/issue40/2/1.html#figure1

Salento
04-04-18, 16:24
https://i.imgur.com/vWdehu2.jpg
(https://i.imgur.com/vWdehu2.jpg)
http://intarch.ac.uk/journal/issue40/2/1.html#figure1

Thanks LATGAL for this Good Quality Map.
http://intarch.ac.uk/journal/issue40/2/images/figure1.jpg

Angela
04-04-18, 17:09
You can see where the swamps were around what is now the northeastern Po Valley: no settlements.

Not all that many in Liguria or Toscana either. The major concentration was Lazio and Campania and east from there.

Pax Augusta
04-04-18, 17:46
Pax,
In this part of the link there's some language about the "ethnic" assignment being the immediate pre-Roman one.

http://intarch.ac.uk/journal/issue40/2/4-3.html


I've found the complete list of all settlements. Settlements are divided into "certain", "uncertain" and "likely". For a decidedly high number of settlements there are more names of populations ("first attributed people", "second attributed people" ...). Some attributions are questionable. The presence of many gaps in ancient sources obviously does not help much. Very complex work, because of its complexity, the map is likely to be too simplifying.



You can see where the swamps were around what is now the northeastern Po Valley: no settlements.

Not all that many in Liguria or Toscana either. The major concentration was Lazio and Campania and east from there.

In Lazio, Campania, Abruzzo and Puglia there is also the highest number of "centres without known Roman legal status".

Angela
04-04-18, 18:21
I've found the complete list of all settlements. Settlements are divided into "certain", "uncertain" and "likely". For a decidedly high number of settlements there are more names of populations ("first attributed people", "second attributed people" ...). Some attributions are questionable. The presence of many gaps in ancient sources obviously does not help much. Very complex work, because of its complexity, the map is likely to be too simplifying.




In Lazio, Campania, Abruzzo and Puglia there is also the highest number of "centres without known Roman legal status".

Could you post the link? I'd like to take a look.

Jovialis
16-04-18, 14:17
This will probably be the next book I buy. Steep price, but I think it's worth it.

The Italic People of Ancient Apulia: New Evidence from Pottery for Workshops, Markets, and Customs

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/the-italic-people-of-ancient-apulia/27E14F1F12ABDBF844E0A43780DEF9A9

https://www.amazon.com/Italic-People-Ancient-Apulia-Workshops/dp/1107041864/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1523880909&sr=8-1&keywords=italic+people+of+ancient+puglia

Salento
16-04-18, 15:29
This will probably be the next book I buy. Steep price, but I think it's worth it.

The Italic People of Ancient Apulia: New Evidence from Pottery for Workshops, Markets, and Customs

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/the-italic-people-of-ancient-apulia/27E14F1F12ABDBF844E0A43780DEF9A9

https://www.amazon.com/Italic-People-Ancient-Apulia-Workshops/dp/1107041864/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1523880909&sr=8-1&keywords=italic+people+of+ancient+puglia
It is very expensive, $122. Hope is worth it. :)

Jovialis
05-05-18, 01:41
This will probably be the next book I buy. Steep price, but I think it's worth it.

The Italic People of Ancient Apulia: New Evidence from Pottery for Workshops, Markets, and Customs

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/the-italic-people-of-ancient-apulia/27E14F1F12ABDBF844E0A43780DEF9A9

https://www.amazon.com/Italic-People-Ancient-Apulia-Workshops/dp/1107041864/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1523880909&sr=8-1&keywords=italic+people+of+ancient+puglia

I found this:

http://classics.uc.edu/apulia/index.html

You can see all of the figures from the book for free.

Salento
05-05-18, 03:11
I found this:

http://classics.uc.edu/apulia/index.html

You can see all of the figures from the book for free.

Thank you for sharing the Link.
This new found interest on the ancient Apulians is welcome news, especially after this population has been somewhat Neglected by the Academic Communities.

Edit————-

I just bought the hard cover from Amazon too. :)

The Italic People of Ancient Apulia
New Evidence from Pottery for Workshops, Markets, and Customs

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51DjaJ8y6sL._SX346_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

Salento
05-05-18, 15:45
The Italic People of Ancient Apulia
Introduction
“... Much has been written about the Greek colonists in Magna Graecia, but there is almost nothing in English about the Iapygians, the Messapians, or the Peucetians, the Italic (non-Greek) people who inhabited Apulia, the vast region of southern Italy that stretches from the tip of the heel up along the Adriatic to the bulge of the Gargano and inland to the Bradano river.
Ancient authors were aware of the often fraught interactions between Italic peoples and Greek colonists.
Herodotus (7.170) could write that the greatest slaughter Greeks ever experienced was when the combined forces of Greeks from Taras and Rhegium were defeated by the Iapygians of Messapia in 473 B.C.E.1 Thucydides (7.33.4) could write of an alliance between Athens and Artas, a chieftain of the Messapians in 413 B.C.E.
Pausanias, in his Description of Greece (10.10.6 and 10.13.10), tells of two fifth century B.C.E. monuments at Delphi set up by the Tarentines to celebrate victories, one over the Messapians, the other over Opis, king of the Iapygians, who was an ally of the Peucetians.
The Italic people of Apulia, however, left no writings of their own and thus they have essentially vanished from history. Our knowledge of them today depends largely on evidence from archaeology, much of which has come to light during the past half century. ...”

Jovialis
06-05-18, 13:44
Every May 1st, the town of Cocullo in Abruzzo carries out a slithery ritual: the Festa dei Serpari or Serpent Festival, which sees locals parade the streets with scores of specially caught snakes.

Handled by specialist handlers called serpari, the snakes are draped around the statue of San Domenico di Sora, the patron saint of Cocullo and protecter against tooth ache – and, handily enough, snake bites.

But the festival is thought to date back further, to before the time of Christianity. Historians believe that the Marsi people who lived in central Italy in ancient times used to worship a serpent goddess, Angitia, who possessed magical powers to control snakes and protect from poison or sickness.

San Domenico, an Umbrian abbot who lived in Cocullo for around seven years around the end of the 10th century, became associated with the rite when he left the town one of his teeth, which is kept as a holy relic to this day in the local church.

Ever since, the faithful have believed in the saint's powers to protect teeth and heal bites. On the morning of the festival, his devotees pull the church's bell rope with their teeth to seek his blessing for their dental health.

The serpari begin preparing for the festival more than a month earlier, catching wild snakes as the winter snow melts and animals begin to venture out. Four types are the most commonly caught: four-lined, Aesculapian, grass and green whip snakes, all of them non-venomous.

The snakes were traditionally kept in clay pots and fattened up on a diet of boiled eggs and mice while they awaited the ritual.

Their handlers bring them to the central square on the day of the festival – traditionally the first Thursday of May, but nowadays every May 1st public holiday – and proudly display them to the public.

Then, at midday, the procession begins: four people carry the statue of San Domenico from the church and the serpari place their snakes on it.

After a procession through the narrow streets, the serpari retrieve their snakes and release them back into the wild – until next year.

https://www.thelocal.it/20180502/pictures-italy-snake-festival-cocullo

The people of Cocullo, in Abruzzo still emulate the traditions of their Marsic ancestors.

https://i.imgur.com/ShXgJH1.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/tARy19H.jpg

Salento
06-05-18, 14:17
Witches of Benevento

“... The history or legend of the witches of Benevento is folklore dating from at least the 13th century. Its dissemination is one reason for the fame of this Samnite city. The popular belief that Benevento would be the Italian witches' gathering place has abundant implications, blurring the border between reality and imagination. Various writers, musicians, and artists have drawn inspiration from or referred to it.

- Birth of the legend -
Many hypotheses on the birth of the witches' legend exist. It has probably been the synergy of several elements that gave Benevento lasting fame as the "City of Witches."

- The cult of Isis -
For a brief period during Roman times, the cult of Isis, Egyptian goddess of the moon, proliferated in Benevento; also, the emperor Domitian had a temple erected in her honor.

Within this cult Isis was part of a sort of Trimurti: she became identified with Hecate, goddess of the underworld, and Diana, goddess of the hunt. These deities were also connected with magic.

The cult of Isis probably stands on the basis of some elements of paganism that survived in succeeding centuries: the characteristics of some witches can be connected with those of Hecate, and the same term used for witches in Benevento, janara, arguably could be derived from the name of Diana. ...”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witches_of_Benevento

Angela
06-05-18, 16:44
Witches of Benevento

“... The history or legend of the witches of Benevento is folklore dating from at least the 13th century. Its dissemination is one reason for the fame of this Samnite city. The popular belief that Benevento would be the Italian witches' gathering place has abundant implications, blurring the border between reality and imagination. Various writers, musicians, and artists have drawn inspiration from or referred to it.

- Birth of the legend -
Many hypotheses on the birth of the witches' legend exist. It has probably been the synergy of several elements that gave Benevento lasting fame as the "City of Witches."

- The cult of Isis -
For a brief period during Roman times, the cult of Isis, Egyptian goddess of the moon, proliferated in Benevento; also, the emperor Domitian had a temple erected in her honor.

Within this cult Isis was part of a sort of Trimurti: she became identified with Hecate, goddess of the underworld, and Diana, goddess of the hunt. These deities were also connected with magic.

The cult of Isis probably stands on the basis of some elements of paganism that survived in succeeding centuries: the characteristics of some witches can be connected with those of Hecate, and the same term used for witches in Benevento, janara, arguably could be derived from the name of Diana. ...”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witches_of_Benevento

My husband's maternal grandmother was from near Benevento

She also practiced what I guess you could call white witchcraft: removing the malocchio, getting people out of the house by putting brooms behind the door, and on and on.
However, I don't really see a big difference between that and some of the practices even in my own area:

http://www.lunigiana.net/magia/magia1.htm

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storie_e_leggende_della_Lunigiana#La_magia_in_Luni giana

Salento
06-05-18, 18:08
My husband's maternal grandmother was from near Benevento

Vitulano, Gioia Sannitica.
Wondering if this small Towns means anything to Him, or you.

https://i.imgur.com/5RtVbeo_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

https://i.imgur.com/j3bqB5f_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

https://i.imgur.com/8FX5WBW_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

https://i.imgur.com/JB7v2DW_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

Angela
06-05-18, 19:59
Vitulano, Gioia Sannitica.
Wondering if this small Towns means anything to Him, or you.

https://i.imgur.com/5RtVbeo_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

https://i.imgur.com/j3bqB5f_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

https://i.imgur.com/8FX5WBW_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

https://i.imgur.com/JB7v2DW_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

No, nothing. All I can see from the map is that his Campanian ancestors come from a village further south, and that this town is just about due west of Circello, near which the exiled Liguri were supposedly settled. Fwiw, she was blonde and blue eyed, and I thought it might stem from her being descended in part from them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circello

Salento
08-05-18, 15:01
Today is May 8, Traditionally in Italy is La Festa della Mamma. I know that this year is the 13, in Italy too (maybe she didn’t get the “memo”). Call your Mother before she calls you. :( :( :(
Good Luck!

Jovialis
13-05-18, 16:59
Thank you for sharing the Link.
This new found interest on the ancient Apulians is welcome news, especially after this population has been somewhat Neglected by the Academic Communities.

Edit————-

I just bought the hard cover from Amazon too. :)

The Italic People of Ancient Apulia
New Evidence from Pottery for Workshops, Markets, and Customs

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51DjaJ8y6sL._SX346_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

No problem, I might get it myself sometime.

Salento
13-05-18, 18:39
—- Redundant —-

Caligula - Mary Beard


https://youtu.be/Vx5PvxRMXms

Angela
13-05-18, 18:50
“Can you hear me now?”
https://images-fastcompany-net.cdn.ampproject.org/i/s/images.fastcompany.net/image/upload/w_638,ar_16:9,c_fill,g_auto,f_auto,q_auto,fl_lossy/fc/3060648-poster-p-1-why-sprint-recruited-the-can-you-hear-me-now-verizon-guy-for-its-new-campaign.jpg
Some of his Relatives are from the Province of Benevento. (believe me :) )

You're going to have to stop being so cryptic and terse in your comments to me. I don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Salento
13-05-18, 19:55
Pompeii - Life and Death in a Roman Town (Mary Beard)


https://youtu.be/mnIY6AE4m6E

Salento
13-05-18, 22:01
A Place Called Etruria


https://youtu.be/bo1-oSVdCEc

(It doesn’t match all the latest info). I Know. :)

Salento
14-05-18, 04:01
History of Italy
A generalized fundamental account


https://youtu.be/JUK8j4ZovQs

Angela
14-05-18, 17:58
The last two links don't work, Salento.

Mary Beard is always interesting, although she has some idiosyncratic views.

Salento
14-05-18, 18:37
The last two links don't work, Salento.

Mary Beard is always interesting, although she has some idiosyncratic views.
Sorry, hope the links are OK now. :)

Salento
15-05-18, 20:40
Found this about my mtDNA.
H12 Birth 3000 B.C.E. Italy
H12a Birth 600 Italy

If it’s correct, originated in Italy more than 5000 years ago.

H12
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/ppl/2/0/d420cc64a42527b22438953a202.html

H12a
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/ppl/0/4/d420cc64a426af46a49c4501140.html

Main Page with all the mtDNA Haplogroups
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/individuals.html

Sile
15-05-18, 20:47
Found this about my mtDNA.
H12 Birth 3000 B.C.E. Italy
H12a Birth 600 Italy

If it’s correct, originated in Italy more than 5000 years ago.

H12
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/ppl/2/0/d420cc64a42527b22438953a202.html

H12a
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/ppl/0/4/d420cc64a426af46a49c4501140.html

Main Page with all the mtDNA Haplogroups
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/individuals.html

interesting ...............mine just says 8000 BCE ...no place....not even europe or asia or

Salento
15-05-18, 21:00
H12

http://i.imgur.com/JkqUkSM.jpg
——————

H12a

http://i.imgur.com/vx3GNvD.jpg
—————

Salento
15-05-18, 21:18
interesting ...............mine just says 8000 BCE ...no place....not even europe or asia or

Not all the mtDNA Haplogroups are posted with a complete set of Info. Many have partial details.

Salento
15-05-18, 23:55
some mtDNA In Italy
H10a1a
H12
H12a
H13a2b1
H13b1
H13c1a
H15b
H1a3a3
H1ab1
H1ak
H1b1a
H1ba1
H1e5a
H29b
H31
H3a1
H3b5
H3c1
H3h2a
H3r1
H47
H4a1c1a
H5a2
H5u
H5v
H6b1
H70
H7a1a
H7b1
H7c1
H7c5
H7h1
H8a
H8a1
H9a
HV0a
HV0f
HV11a
HV1a'b'c
HV22
HV4a1
HV4c
I5a1b
J1b1a3
J1c10
J1c1h
J1d2
J2a1a2
J2a2a
K1a26
K1c1a
N1a3a3
N1b1a4
T1a1r
T2b4g
T2c1a2
U1b3
U2e1b2
U5a2c2
U5b1b1+T16192C!
U5b1d1b
U5b2a1a2
U5b2a2a1
U8b1a1
V1a1b
W1e1a
W4c
X2n

http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/plc/7/5/d420cc3d1d216323c41f3733057.html

Italy Calabria
H13a1a2a
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/plc/7/2/d420cc665286ffc2fbc45821e27.html

Italian
U5b3a1a
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/plc/e/8/d420cd2966f22a73a7d6991158e.html

Central Italy
M1a1b1
U5b3b
U6a2
U6a5
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/plc/2/0/d420cc13ac64359bbf499d23402.html

Southern Italy
M1a3a
M1b2b
U5b3g
U6a1b4
U6a7a1b
U6a7a1c
U6c1
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/plc/a/4/d420cc13bfe7f52efd94a109a4a.html

Sicily
U6a5c
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/plc/3/4/d420cd2d5cd596a4cc8df025f43.html

Sardinia
H32
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/plc/c/4/d420cc64c58d6af2e19934544c.html

Isle of Elba
U7b1
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/plc/3/4/d420cd3b21b3b8e2af7f3e5843.html


More Italian+ variations:
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/places.html

It’s a work in progress.
Things may change.
Hopefully we’ll have a more detail and complete list soon. :)

Angela
16-05-18, 03:54
some mtDNA In Italy
H10a1a
H12
H12a
H13a2b1
H13b1
H13c1a
H15b
H1a3a3
H1ab1
H1ak
H1b1a
H1ba1
H1e5a
H29b
H31
H3a1
H3b5
H3c1
H3h2a
H3r1
H47
H4a1c1a
H5a2
H5u
H5v
H6b1
H70
H7a1a
H7b1
H7c1
H7c5
H7h1
H8a
H8a1
H9a
HV0a
HV0f
HV11a
HV1a'b'c
HV22
HV4a1
HV4c
I5a1b
J1b1a3
J1c10
J1c1h
J1d2
J2a1a2
J2a2a
K1a26
K1c1a
N1a3a3
N1b1a4
T1a1r
T2b4g
T2c1a2
U1b3
U2e1b2
U5a2c2
U5b1b1+T16192C!
U5b1d1b
U5b2a1a2
U5b2a2a1
U8b1a1
V1a1b
W1e1a
W4c
X2n

http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/plc/7/5/d420cc3d1d216323c41f3733057.html

Italy Calabria
H13a1a2a
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/plc/7/2/d420cc665286ffc2fbc45821e27.html

Italian
U5b3a1a
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/plc/e/8/d420cd2966f22a73a7d6991158e.html

Central Italy
M1a1b1
U5b3b
U6a2
U6a5
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/plc/2/0/d420cc13ac64359bbf499d23402.html

Southern Italy
M1a3a
M1b2b
U5b3g
U6a1b4
U6a7a1b
U6a7a1c
U6c1
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/plc/a/4/d420cc13bfe7f52efd94a109a4a.html

Sicily
U6a5c
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/plc/3/4/d420cd2d5cd596a4cc8df025f43.html

Sardinia
H32
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/plc/c/4/d420cc64c58d6af2e19934544c.html

Isle of Elba
U7b1
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/plc/3/4/d420cd3b21b3b8e2af7f3e5843.html


More Italian+ variations:
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/places.html

It’s a work in progress.
Things may change.
Hopefully we’ll have a more detail and complete list soon. :)

U2e2a1, I think. It's been a long time since I checked.

Salento
16-05-18, 04:48
U2e2a1
3000 B.C.E.
No location yet.
sorry.
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/ppl/c/d/d420cd3264039f8eab04cf296dc.html
In Italy there’s also some around Naples on another site. (Beside North Europe.)
I’m sure you know that already.

Sile
16-05-18, 07:27
U2e2a1
3000 B.C.E.
No location yet.
sorry.
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/ppl/c/d/d420cd3264039f8eab04cf296dc.html
In Italy there’s also some around Naples on another site. (Beside North Europe.)
I’m sure you know that already.

Oldest with this marker I seen is in Sogdria in the latest paper ...sample DA125

Sile
16-05-18, 07:30
some mtDNA In Italy
H10a1a
H12
H12a
H13a2b1
H13b1
H13c1a
H15b
H1a3a3
H1ab1
H1ak
H1b1a
H1ba1
H1e5a
H29b
H31
H3a1
H3b5
H3c1
H3h2a
H3r1
H47
H4a1c1a
H5a2
H5u
H5v
H6b1
H70
H7a1a
H7b1
H7c1
H7c5
H7h1
H8a
H8a1
H9a
HV0a
HV0f
HV11a
HV1a'b'c
HV22
HV4a1
HV4c
I5a1b
J1b1a3
J1c10
J1c1h
J1d2
J2a1a2
J2a2a
K1a26
K1c1a
N1a3a3
N1b1a4
T1a1r
T2b4g
T2c1a2
U1b3
U2e1b2
U5a2c2
U5b1b1+T16192C!
U5b1d1b
U5b2a1a2
U5b2a2a1
U8b1a1
V1a1b
W1e1a
W4c
X2n

http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/plc/7/5/d420cc3d1d216323c41f3733057.html

Italy Calabria
H13a1a2a
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/plc/7/2/d420cc665286ffc2fbc45821e27.html

Italian
U5b3a1a
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/plc/e/8/d420cd2966f22a73a7d6991158e.html

Central Italy
M1a1b1
U5b3b
U6a2
U6a5
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/plc/2/0/d420cc13ac64359bbf499d23402.html

Southern Italy
M1a3a
M1b2b
U5b3g
U6a1b4
U6a7a1b
U6a7a1c
U6c1
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/plc/a/4/d420cc13bfe7f52efd94a109a4a.html

Sicily
U6a5c
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/plc/3/4/d420cd2d5cd596a4cc8df025f43.html

Sardinia
H32
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/plc/c/4/d420cc64c58d6af2e19934544c.html

Isle of Elba
U7b1
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/plc/3/4/d420cd3b21b3b8e2af7f3e5843.html


More Italian+ variations:
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/places.html

It’s a work in progress.
Things may change.
Hopefully we’ll have a more detail and complete list soon. :)

add
T1a1e for my paternal grandfather
T2b17 for my father
K1a4 for my wife and sons
myself with H95a with also a friuli named Canderan ..............most are swedes though

Angela
16-05-18, 17:03
U2e2a1
3000 B.C.E.
No location yet.
sorry.
http://www.thecid.com/mtdnatree/ppl/c/d/d420cd3264039f8eab04cf296dc.html
In Italy there’s also some around Naples on another site. (Beside North Europe.)
I’m sure you know that already.

Also, far northwest Tuscany (the Lunigiana), Switzerland, and Ireland.

I can't find the data, but there's also a group in southeastern France.

It's more rare than U2e1, which seems to be most frequent today in the Baltics.

Salento
16-05-18, 17:39
Adding mtDNA U5a2a1b, Campania, Italy.

Angela
16-05-18, 19:00
Adding mtDNA U5a2a1b, Campania, Italy.

Salento, you can take a look at the U2e2 sheet. Unfortunately, "national" information isn't provided for everyone, but there's one sequence from the Veneto. Of the ones closest to me, the vast majority seem to be from Denmark, so it looks not "Celtic", but Lombard to me. (Interestingly enough, I get a third cousin or higher match in Denmark on 23andme and we have no connections within a genealogical time frame). Maybe a flow to Britain and Italy from around Switzerland still makes sense, although it might have arrived in Switzerland originally via "Germanic" tribes in the first millennium BC.

http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_by_group/u2e2_genbank_sequences.htm

KY399182(Italy: Veneto) Olivieri2017

It's pretty funny how I'm constantly being berated on the grounds that my analysis is somehow tied to my ethnicity, and that's why I'm "anti-steppe", or "anti-Northern European" in their view, when my father's yDna is central European/Italo-Celtic, and my mtDna is northern European. :)

As I've said, however, logic is not a lot of people's strong suit.

Oh, for anyone looking it up, there's no Sogdria: it's Sogdia which he meant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sogdia

Now I understand why I was getting mtDna hits all the way into China. U2e2 apparently spread west, east and south from the steppe with the original "Iranian" tribes like Andronovo/Sintashta etc. Those steppe groups carrying it who went west are probably the reason I still get that trace .2% East Asian on practically every calculator.

Sile
16-05-18, 19:50
H12

http://i.imgur.com/JkqUkSM.jpg
——————

H12a

http://i.imgur.com/vx3GNvD.jpg
—————

https://haplogroup.org/mtdna/rsrs/l123456/l23456/l2346/l346/l34/l3/n/r/r0/hv/h/h12/

Salento
16-05-18, 20:05
Salento, you can take a look at the U2e2 sheet. Unfortunately, "national" information isn't provided for everyone, but there's one sequence from the Veneto. Of the ones closest to me, the vast majority seem to be from Denmark, so it looks not "Celtic", but Lombard to me. (Interestingly enough, I get a third cousin or higher match in Denmark on 23andme and we have no connections within a genealogical time frame). Maybe a flow to Britain and Italy from around Switzerland still makes sense, although it might have arrived in Switzerland originally via "Germanic" tribes in the first millennium BC.

http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_by_group/u2e2_genbank_sequences.htm

KY399182(Italy: Veneto) Olivieri2017

It's pretty funny how I'm constantly being berated on the grounds that my analysis is somehow tied to my ethnicity, and that's why I'm "anti-steppe", or "anti-Northern European" in their view, when my father's yDna is central European/Italo-Celtic, and my mtDna is northern European. :)

As I've said, however, logic is not a lot of people's strong suit.

Oh, for anyone looking it up, there's no Sogdria: it's Sogdia which he meant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sogdia

Now I understand why I was getting mtDna hits all the way into China. U2e2 apparently spread west, east and south from the steppe with the original "Iranian" tribes like Andronovo/Sintashta etc. Those steppe groups carrying it who went west are probably the reason I still get that trace .2% East Asian on practically every calculator.

Haplogroups are dynamic, they don’t follow a straight line.
They indicate movement of people, and migrations, and members of the same Haplogroup can separate and take different routes.
They just prove that this or that people were there, are here now, or they just passed by a place long ago.
Clearly haplogroups are not always associated with Ethnicity, or proof of it.
IMHO Haplogroups are overrated when people try to prove an ethnicity.
Their movements were not Static, and are unreliable for a fool proof ethnic estimation.
It should be made more clear by the DNA testing companies, the multi path an Haplogroup can take, and not associate it to a race or ethnicity, but only as possible, or remote indication of it.
If one day the researchers solves all this puzzling routes taken by our ancestors, only then we can say for sure.

Jovialis
16-05-18, 20:12
One found in Italy:


Haplogroup H6a1b is a branch on the maternal tree of human kind. Its age is between 5,700 and 9,400 years (Behar et al., 2012b).

https://haplogroup.org/mtdna/rsrs/l123456/l23456/l2346/l346/l34/l3/n/r/r0/hv/h/h6/h6a/h6a1/h6a1b/

One found in Ireland:


In my case, my maternal line (https://www.23andme.com/you/haplogroup/maternal/), traced through mitochondrial DNA that I inherited from my mother (thanks Mom!), told me that I’m a sub-type of a lineage called H6a (specifically H6a1b). H6a is is an offshoot of the broader H maternal line and is found at low levels – 4% or less – in the Czech Republic, Slovakia, France, Sweden… and Ireland! So, although it doesn’t completely verify the story, this one branch of my ancestral tree is at least consistent with claims of Irish ancestry on my mother’s side.


https://blog.23andme.com/23andme-and-you/did-you-know-dna-can-offer-clues-about-irish-ancestry/



Haplogroup H2b, H6a1b, H13a1a1a and many other undetermined H subclades (including many probable H1 and H5) turned up among the mtDNA samples from the Yamna culture, which occupied the Pontic-Caspian Steppe during the Early Bronze Age. The Corded Ware culture, which is associated with the expansion of Y-haplogroup R1a from the steppes to Central Europe and Scandinavia, yielded samples belonging to H1ca1, H2a1, H4a1, H5a1, H6a1a and H10e. Ancient DNA from the Catacomb culture, strongly associated with Y-haplogroup R1a, yielded samples belonging to H1, H2a1 and H6. The Unetice culture, which is thought to mark the arrival of R1b in Central Europe (but overlapping with the previous R1a expansion), had individuals belonging to H2a1a3, H3, H4a1a1a2, H7h, H11a, H82a. Haplogroup H5a was found in the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture and most probably entered the Steppe gene pool by intermarriage.


https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_H_mtDNA.shtml


Here's information on my y-dna:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34035-R1b-F1794

Salento
16-05-18, 20:23
https://haplogroup.org/mtdna/rsrs/l123456/l23456/l2346/l346/l34/l3/n/r/r0/hv/h/h12/

More in Italy, Croatia, and Bulgaria.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/mtdna_h12/default.aspx?section=mtresults
People move and split.
Just like our Y T.
How do we explain that?
We are few, but we are every where. :)

Regio X
16-05-18, 20:25
- Mine: H1e* (full sequence by FTDNA; no subclade below labeled yet). MDKA in female line from far western of Pordenone province. We already have four or five H1e in ancient DNA from Europe, if my memory serves me correctly.
- Father: T1b, apparently rare in Europe. Unkown subclade, since 23andMe hasn't tested further. MDKA in female line from northern of Treviso province.
- My little one: predicted H1h1. 23andMe v4 says H1. It doesn't test the mutation which defines H1h, however, it does test the one that defines H1h1, as per the raw data. MDKA in female line from far western Pordenone province as well.


It's pretty funny how I'm constantly being berated on the grounds that my analysis is somehow tied to my ethnicity, and that's why I'm "anti-steppe", or "anti-Northern European" in their view, when my father's yDna is central European/Italo-Celtic, and my mtDna is northern European. :)Finally you figured out his yDna. :) I presume it's R-U152!?

Angela
16-05-18, 20:28
Haplogroups are dynamic, they don’t follow a straight line.
They indicate movement of people, and migrations, and members of the same Haplogroup can separate and take different routes.
They just prove that this or that people were there, are here now, or they just passed by a place long ago.
Clearly haplogroups are not always associated with Ethnicity, or proof of it.
IMHO Haplogroups are overrated when people try to prove an ethnicity.
Their movements were not Static, and are unreliable for a fool proof ethnic estimation.
It should be made more clear by the DNA testing companies, the multi path an Haplogroup can take, and not associate it to a race or ethnicity, but only as possible indication of it.
If one day the researchers solves all this puzzling routes taken by our ancestors, only then we can say for sure.

I largely agree. However, we're lucky with this particular group because we have very ancient samples present only on one "continent". U2 is Kostenki man. We then find U2 in the European mesolithic. It disappeared in western Europe from what we can tell so far, but survived in the far northeast. In the case of U2e1 and U2e2 we know that these have shown up only in contexts somehow connected with steppe migrations. For this as for all haplogroups, if you know the precise mutations you carry you can get a rough estimate of age and the known samples can give you the general part of the world.

The precise routes with the precise historical tribes can't really be known, and given it's so long ago, I don't see why people see them as some sign of how they should identify, but that's me. If other people do, fine with me.

What's really important about mtDna is not ancestry: it's all the trait and health implications.

Oh, here's Maciamo's analysis:

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_U2_mtDNA.shtml

"Haplogroup U2 is an extremely old lineage, going back at least 40,000 years, when Homo sapiens first expanded from the Middle East into South Asia and Central Asia, and before they even set foot in Europe. Two of the oldest Homo sapiens DNA samples from Europe tested to date, a 37,000 and a 33,000-year old Cro-Magnons from the Kostenki site on the Don River in the Russia, both belonged to haplogroup U2 (see Krause et al. 2010 (http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822%2809%2902139-3) and Fu et al. 2016 (https://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v534/n7606/abs/nature17993.html)). Their paternal lineages were indentified as Y-haplogroups C1b and CT, two Paleolithic lineages that are now believed to be extinct in Europe. Y-haplogroup C was the first to leave Africa and colonise Eurasia 70,000 years ago. C1b still exists today in the Arabian peninsula, in India and in Polynesia (Hawaii, Micronesia, New Zealand). The extremely wide dispersal of Y-DNA haplogroup C and mtDNA haplogroup U2 attest to their antiquity.More U2 samples were identified among other Paleolithic and Mesolithic European hunter-gatherers, including four Gravettian U2* individuals from Goyet Cave in Belgium dating from 22,000 to 24,000 years ago (Posht et al. 2016 (http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822%2816%2900087-7?_returnURL=http%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com% 2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0960982216000877%3Fshowall%3Dt rue)), a 11,000 year-old U2e from Blätterhöhle in Germany (Bollongino et al. 2013 (https://www.sciencemag.org/content/342/6157/479)), two 9,500 year-old U2e individuals from Karelia in Russia (Der Sarkissian 2011 (http://digital.library.adelaide.edu.au/dspace/handle/2440/74221)), and two 8,000 year-old U2e1 individuals from Motala in Sweden (Lazaridis et al. 2014 (https://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v513/n7518/full/nature13673.html)).Based on these ancient DNA results from Europe and the presence of all basal subclades of U2 in Central Asia, it is likely that U2 people roamed between Central Europe and Central Asia during the Paleolithic and Mesolithic, and perhaps already in other parts of Europe and in South Asia. The steppes of eastern Europe and Central Asia are probably the original geographic location from which such a dispersal was made possible during the Stone Age, and again during the Bronze Age.U2 and the Bronze & Iron Age Indo-Europeans

U2 became much scarcer among European Neolithic samples, only popping up once in an early Linear Pottery sample from Hungary. In the late Copper and early Bronze ages, U2 made a come back among Proto-Indo-Europeans cultures. U2 samples were found in the Yamna culture (https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/yamna_culture.shtml)(U2e1a), Corded Ware culture (https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/corded_ware_culture.shtml) (U2e1 and U2e2), Unetice culture (https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/unetice_culture.shtml) (U2e1f), as well as the Andronovo culture (https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/andronovo_culture.shtml) (U2e) in Central Asia.Proto-Indo-European speakers from eastern Europe had a higher proportion of Mesolithic European ancestry than Neolithic farmers, so it isn't surprising to find a slightly higher frequency of U2e among samples from that period. U2e actually shows up with surprising regularity in ancient samples from Ukraine and European Russia. For example it was also found in Iron Age Scythian remains from Rostov-on-Don in southern Russia. U2e even showed up in Indo-European bones from the Tarim basin in north-west China, also dating from the Iron Age (possibly Scythian or Tocharian), but also at a Xiongnu (Hunnic) site from the same period in Mongolia."


The only thing that leads me to speculate about Lombards in particular is that my full mito sequence and those of two people from Britain and Switzerland were compared, and based on mutations and mutation rates, we have a common female ancestor in the late first millennium BC according to the "experts" in these things. How the common ancestor would have identified I have no idea, and as I said, it's too long ago and too little a part of my entire genetic make-up for me to worry about it.

Salento
16-05-18, 21:27
What Etruscan Sounded Like - and how we know


https://youtu.be/wtzg5uEpiOI

Salento
02-06-18, 01:48
2 Giugno - Festa della Repubblica
(Republic Day in Italy)
http://idata.over-blog.com/1/15/66/74/per-articoli-vari/2giugno.jpg

https://www.viagginews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/festa-repubblicaiStock-157726221-600x400.jpg

https://www.journeydraft.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Festa-della-Repubblica.jpg

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festa_della_Repubblica

Salento
31-12-18, 16:39
Vatican City: Live Webcam


https://youtu.be/SaV36dKiN3s

Salento
06-01-19, 15:47
8 days that made Rome

1 - https://youtu.be/EEno-M30bxc

2 - https://youtu.be/Q9WpwV3GZvY

3 - Crossing the Rubicon
https://youtu.be/83byxZ3wE4M

4- https://youtu.be/Ma3FkxGBYmk

Salento
06-01-19, 15:54
5 - Boudicas
https://youtu.be/YozkYnVkBHI

6 -
https://youtu.be/8hNv9qJu128

7 -
https://youtu.be/rSBtNH9i4qY

8 -
https://youtu.be/vbZHVZynahQ

Salento
25-01-19, 04:36
My Ancestral Journey
Video Results by Geno 2.0 Helix (National Geographic)

Original

https://vimeo.com/251049199

•••

Edited Italian Version and ....
Geno Invicta

https://vimeo.com/284624778

Salento
05-02-19, 02:02
Friendly reminder: If you are waiting for an email from the Italian Consulate, and you haven’t received yet, Check the Spam Folder :angry:

I said it before already, and I’ll say it again. :angry:

Nothing is easy with........

Salento
08-02-19, 18:14
All Italians who are interested on their genetics should read this.
There are new developments regarding the DNA of the Italians of Ancient Rome.

Filter out the arguments of those who are only interested in challenging the new findings, and a picture of who the Italian of Ancien Rome were, becomes a bit clearer.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/37817-Talk-on-Ancient-Italian-Roman-DNA-over-in-Stanford (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/37817-Talk-on-Ancient-Italian-Roman-DNA-over-in-Stanford)

——-
Ci sono nuove revelazioni sul DNA degli Italiani dell’Antica Roma.
Piano piano, stiamo scoprendo chi erano veramente.

Mettete da parte i post di coloro che rifiutano di accettare i risultati di queste nuove ricerche genetiche, e non vi fate INGANNARE da loro. (sono solo dei rompi p...) ;)


https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/37817-Talk-on-Ancient-Italian-Roman-DNA-over-in-Stanford

Pax Augusta
08-02-19, 18:27
All Italians who are interested on their genetics should read this.
There are new developments regarding the DNA of the Italians of Ancient Rome.

Filter out the arguments of those who are only interested in challenging the new findings, and a picture of who the Italian of Ancien Rome were, becomes a bit clearer.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/37817-Talk-on-Ancient-Italian-Roman-DNA-over-in-Stanford (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/37817-Talk-on-Ancient-Italian-Roman-DNA-over-in-Stanford)

——-
Ci sono nuove revelazioni sul DNA degli Italiani dell’Antica Roma.
Piano piano, stiamo scoprendo chi erano veramente.

Mettete da parte i post di coloro che rifiutano di accettare i risultati di queste nuove ricerche genetiche, e non vi fate confondere da loro. (sono solo dei rompi p...) ;)


https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/37817-Talk-on-Ancient-Italian-Roman-DNA-over-in-Stanford


Alla maggioranza degli italiani non gliene può fregare di meno della genetica. :)

Salento
08-02-19, 18:50
Alla maggioranza degli italiani non gliene può fregare di meno della genetica. :)
Genealogy is the 2nd most popular hobby in the US.
——
Secondo me, può essere che dicono così perché hanno paura di scropire chi sono veramente. (hanno i loro motivi ...)
Chissà quanti di loro usano sarcasmo come copertura, ma in realtà, in privato, sono interessatissimi. :)

Pax Augusta
08-02-19, 18:56
Genealogy is the 2nd most popular hobby in the US.

Per forza, gli Stati Uniti sono costituiti da un popolo di migranti relativamente recente.



Può essere che dicono così perché hanno paura di scropire chi sono veramente. (hanno i loro motivi ...)
Chissà quanti di loro usano sarcasmo come copertura, ma in realtà in privato sono interessatissimi. :)


Questa è una roba che un italiano non direbbe e non penserebbe mai. Semplicemente alla maggioranza degli italiani non gliene può fregar di meno. È la mentalità italiana. Anche se chiaramente diventando la genetica più popolare ovunque, finirà per diventarlo anche in Italia, come in piccola parte sta già avvenendo.

Salento
08-02-19, 19:00
Per forza, gli Stati Uniti sono costituiti da un popolo di migranti relativamente recente.





Questa è una roba che un italiano non direbbe e non penserebbe mai. Semplicemente alla maggioranza degli italiani non gliene può fregar di meno. È la mentalità italiana. Anche se chiaramente diventando la genetica più popolare ovunque, finirà per diventarlo anche in Italia, come in piccola parte sta già avvendo.

Take into account my background.

a dire la verità, ho iniziato ad interessarmi solo dopo che mi hanno regalato un NatGeo kit un Natale.
Forse hai ragione tu.

Angela
08-02-19, 19:34
Perhaps we should get back to English so our members can follow the conversation.

I'm very surprised, Salento, that you would think Italians (as in Italians in Italy) give a damn about genetics, much less that they're "afraid" of what they may discover. I could see Americans thinking that, but Italians? Pax is completely right about that. I can't imagine an Italian thinking that way. They must be very different in the Salento.

After years of trying I can't get a single one of my many Italian relatives to test, even when I offer to pay. Believe me, they wouldn't be lying to me about why they don't want to test. :) They think it's nonsense. As one old aunt said, we've been right here for hundreds, maybe a thousand years. (She's right: at least back to 1400.) Who cares about before that? I also get: I have enough cousins! :) Most of them emphatically didn't want to know health risks, either. The same old great-aunt said something to the effect of why would I want to know the things that are supposedly going to kill me? She was 94 at the time, making it all rather academic. :)

It's an eminently sensible and pragmatic attitude. It also shows a level of comfort and acceptance with who we are, and a lack of need to try to prove anything. We're not the Balkans, after all, obsessed with questions of identity, and who was first where, and who is better.

Salento
08-02-19, 19:49
I will.
Da Prendere in considerazione:
Dopo un po’ di tempo, gli Italiani che vivono fuori dall’Italia, vedeno le cose in un modo un po’ diverso (o almeno io).
È assolutamente sbagliato ed offensivo affermare “Un Italiano non penserebbe mai ...”

Pax Augusta
08-02-19, 19:54
Da Prendere in considerazione:
Dopo un po’ di tempo, gli Italiani che vivono fuori dall’Italia, vedeno le cose in un modo un po’ diverso.
È assolutamente sbagliato ed offensivo affermare “Un Italiano non penserebbe mai ...”


Someone might find what you wrote offensive if we want to.


However, you are agreeing with me, because I was clearly talking about Italians living in Italy, who are still the main source of knowledge about who the Italians are.


Then it is possible that Italians who go abroad will change their mind. But even in this case I know examples of Italians who have moved abroad and have not changed their minds about this.

Sile
08-02-19, 20:01
Per forza, gli Stati Uniti sono costituiti da un popolo di migranti relativamente recente.





Questa è una roba che un italiano non direbbe e non penserebbe mai. Semplicemente alla maggioranza degli italiani non gliene può fregar di meno. È la mentalità italiana. Anche se chiaramente diventando la genetica più popolare ovunque, finirà per diventarlo anche in Italia, come in piccola parte sta già avvenendo.

italians think like this because they think of their town first , then maybe their province ...........if your lucky their region next and if you are really lucky their country last.

Salento
08-02-19, 20:04
I see it now. :)
I feel like:
“You know you've been out of Italy for too long when...”

I'll be more considerable ...

Pax Augusta
08-02-19, 20:12
italians think like this because they think of their town first , then maybe their province ...........if your lucky their region next and if you are really lucky their country last.

I'm well aware of that. Ovviamente.

Angela
08-02-19, 20:19
I will.
Da Prendere in considerazione:
Dopo un po’ di tempo, gli Italiani che vivono fuori dall’Italia, vedeno le cose in un modo un po’ diverso (o almeno io).
È assolutamente sbagliato ed offensivo affermare “Un Italiano non penserebbe mai ...”

Sorry, you say you'll go back to posting in English and then go back to posting in Italian?

The rules are the rules. Post in English, Salento, please.

I'm sure what Pax meant to say is that it would be very odd for an actual Italian to give a damn or be "afraid" of the results of a dna test, apart, possibly, from health results.

It's true that we have some "Nordicist", or perhaps better said, anti-Near Eastern and anti-African racist Italians. However, even Lega Nord people in Italy haven't been bitten by the personal genetics bug. Indeed, the vast majority of Italians aren't even aware of this kind of testing. As an Italian surely you know that.

As for people who have moved to America, yes, I would think there is more interest, as there is in Italian-Americans proper. Given the advertising and how many people are testing, that's understandable. However, I know a lot of these people personally, and met more through 23andme forums, and I've yet to meet one who was upset about additional "West Asian" percentages, or a tiny bit of North African. The only thing that upset my husband was the French and German tiny percentages which showed up. :) As a died in the wool conservative, he is a bit prejudiced against the French, I'm afraid. I can't break him of it.

Salento
08-02-19, 20:25
It’s a Timing thing.
I edited and added “I Will” after I posted. :)

Sorry too about .... as they say “it came out wrong”.

Salento
10-02-19, 02:56
The Making of an Italian American

http://i.imgur.com/wQIzC9B.jpg

We are Strong on the Tri-state :satisfied:

... 1900 - Pushed from home by an unstable government and fueled by money sent from those already in America, entire families began to leave southern Italy.
They found work as fisherman and citrus farmers in California, coal miners in Pennsylvania, and seamstresses, tailors, fruit sellers, and construction workers in big cities like New York and Chicago.

They gathered in “Little Italies,” establishing neighborhoods based on old family and town loyalties, but many still dreamed of returning home and put off learning English or becoming citizens.

Emigration from southern Italy to the United States slowed during World War I, and again after 1924 when a new law limited the number of immigrants allowed into the country.
However, second-generation southern Italians were integrating into American culture and by 1930 more than 100,000 southern Italians and Sicilians lived in the East Harlem neighborhood of New York City.
During World War II, they were among the 500,000 Italian Americans who served in the U.S. Armed Forces.
This helped cement their place as valued American citizens..

Salento
17-02-19, 02:38
Live News in Italian:

RaiNews24

http://www.rainews.it/dl/rainews/live/ContentItem-3156f2f2-dc70-4953-8e2f-70d7489d4ce9.html


EuroNews


https://youtu.be/IeDHodMYuGI

Angela
17-02-19, 02:50
More about Hungarians and Georgians than Italics, yes? :)

Well, at least the lead story.

Salento
17-02-19, 03:13
I figure I’ll keep the thread going with General Italian Info, as we wait for more .... :)

Salento
17-02-19, 04:45
The 7 Kings of Rome
(sung in English)


https://youtu.be/pEFPNSukVlc
REX
Romulus, Numa Pompilius, Tullus Hostilius, Ancus Marcius, Lucius Tarquinius Priscus, Servius Tullius, Lucius Tarquinius Superbus.

Salento
19-02-19, 20:13
Social Clubs help keep Italian community together.


https://youtu.be/Y5kYFrDGbWA

Good People. imo :)

Angela
19-02-19, 22:18
Indeed, but the members are mostly older men who immigrated from Italy. Unfortunately, the sons and daughters and grandchildren aren't as interested.

In the metro area, I don't know about Jersey, but in Manhattan the Italian social clubs are almost gone. The only ones that I know of that are still active are the Columbus Citizens Foundation, which is for the high flyers who plan the Columbus Day Parade, and Tira a Segno, which was modeled on clubs in Italy based on hunting. It has a shooting range in the basement. My husband gets invited there by older clients.

https://www.yelp.com/biz/columbus-citizens-foundation-new-york

Tira a segno:
https://www.yelp.com/biz/tiro-a-segno-of-ny-new-york?osq=Italian+social+club

There used to be a social club in Astoria, Queens for people from Parma. I remember going to stay with relatives in Suffolk so they could trot me over there to their dances. I was supposed to find someone from "home". :)

There are a few social organizations for professional people of one sort or another which skew younger and American born, like the Italian American Lawyers' Association to which my husband belongs. I just hate groups. Imo these kinds of groups just turn into networking groups where people just use one another for professional advantage. I just really hate that stuff. It's a good thing my husband is a good salesman. :) I didn't even join the National Association of Italian American women.

Back when I was a believer, I heard about an Italian organization at a Long Island Church, St. Brigid's, which conducted meetings in Italian, sponsored Italian language masses and had fairs etc. The people all have ancestry from a town in Campania, though, and when I showed up they treated me like I was from Mars, so that was a fail. I hate to say it, because it sounds so stereotypical, but with the older people who dominated the group I stuck out like a sore thumb: I was about a half a foot taller than many of them. It didn't bother me, but it bothered them. They asked me if I was "really" Italian. That was that.

They do a Via Dolorosa enactment. Originally all in Italian, now with three linguistic versions. It's the only Passion Play I know of in the northeast. They close the streets in the whole town.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upd63E_AAlU

Salento
19-02-19, 23:08
I'm still a member of one of those clubs. I don't go there very often, apart for sports tournaments, and stuff like that. (They would totally lose every time without me :grin:)
They also collect funds for scholarships and charities.
Majority of the people who spend time in the club are older men.
You should see them arguing when they decide to make sausages and maybe “ricotta”? in the back of the building, they all have a better way of doing things. LOL

Angela
20-02-19, 00:10
I'm still a member of one of those clubs. I don't go there very often, apart for sports tournaments, and stuff like that. (They would totally lose every time without me :grin:)
They also collect funds for scholarships and charities.
Majority of the people who spend time in the club are older men.
You should see them arguing when they decide to make sausages and maybe “ricotta”? in the back of the building, they all have a better way of doing things. LOL

Typical Italians. :) I've seen people on a train in Italy get into a shouting match over the best way to make a dish.

Well, we get into shouting matches over a lot of things. :)

When we stayed in Sorrento, we used to take the bus up and down the coast. Unfortunately, because they have a schedule and the traffic was making it impossible to keep to it, they sometimes ignore the locals at unscheduled stops.

We were on it one day when a very old woman finally got picked up. She stood right next to the driver and put on a whole show of how she had been waiting forever, with much shouting in dialect. She capped it by asking my husband what was she supposed to do, throw herself down in the middle of the street so they'd notice her???? He didn't know what the heck she was saying, but I jabbed him and whispered say yes. That pissed off the bus driver who then also started shouting at him. I told him to shrug exaggeratedly! It was great fun. The British tourists looked shell shocked. :)

Angela
20-02-19, 00:54
Political shows in Italy. :startled::petrified::ashamed2:

They're really depressing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIhXMOw-eYE

We're catching up here in the states, though.


This would not play out this way here. CORNUTO! :) I love the guy chasing the "amante" down the street trying to get a picture. Now, this one makes me laugh. It's like a scene from a French or Italian sex farce.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Klky4L7ehKw

Neander
21-02-19, 23:01
Italics in Italy were not pure. They happened to migrate there together with many illyrian tribes who after some time became italized. I am not talking about proper illyrians like Messapians, or Peucetes or Dauns.

These are italic tribes but with illyrian origin in their past: Sabines who became Safines after italic language turned B>F, Brendon in illyro-thracian means red deer, it became Frentani after B>F in italic, also samnites were descendants of sabines at least partially and in their name Sabin > *Sabnit > Samnit

Lukanians were illyrians they were descended from 9 illyrian boys and 9 illyrian girls, according to roman authors.

Picentes were archeologically illyrians, and Carleton Coon himself described adriatic part of Italy as inhabited by illyrian race.

Angela
21-02-19, 23:11
Italics in Italy were not pure. They happened to migrate there together with many illyrian tribes who after some time became italized. I am not talking about proper illyrians like Messapians, or Peucetes or Dauns.
These are italic tribes but with illyrian origin in their past: Sabines who became Safines after italic language turned B>F, Brendon in illyro-thracian means red deer, it became Frentani after B>F in italic, also samnites were descendants of sabines at least partially and in their name Sabin > *Sabnit > Samnit
Lukanians were illyrians they were descended from 9 illyrian boys and 9 illyrian girls, according to roman authors.
Picentes were archeologically illyrians, and Carleton Coon himself described adriatic part of Italy as inhabited by illyrian race.

Let's get with the modern era of genetics, shall we?

Illyrians were "not" a race.

There are NO pure races or ethnicities, and that definitely includes Albanians, and "Illyrians" for that matter.

When we get an "Illyrian" genome we'll see what they were like and do some comparisons.

Salento
24-02-19, 21:01
Governor A. Cuomo: “Oggi siamo tutti Italiani” (Today we’re all Italians)

NYC Columbus Day Parade
Largest celebration of Italian-American culture!


https://youtu.be/7cbHpIFiY1s

Salento
25-04-19, 20:38
Liberation Day

http://teammazzu.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/251.png

Festa della Liberazione

Angela
25-04-19, 22:04
Why there had to be a liberation...If you're squeamish, don't watch it. At around three minutes in you can see what greeted my mother, a little girl at the time, when she went to Mass for a month or two until they rotted and fell down.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_US2Db7UYZU

They thought they would make and keep an empire this way.

A commemorative recreation of the parade on that day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSN-Yi7zvsM

The actual parade can be seen here. I wish they would clean up that footage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAtOLEuSAKs-Liberazione

italouruguayan
26-04-19, 00:35
During my childhood and my adolescence, I knew what it was like to live under a dictatorship in my country. I remember the feeling of oppression, when we returned to democracy we learned about the barbarities that happened in that period. But it can not be compared to the tragedy of dictatorships in Europe, and World War II.
And the tragedies did not end on April 25 ... on April 29, a massacre took place in the Veneto, which included the town of my grandfather, San Martino di Lupari, after clashes between partisans and the retreating German troops. When I saw the commemorative monolith, it gave me chills to see that several of the dead had my last name ...
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eccidio_di_Castello_di_Godego

Angela
26-04-19, 02:44
During my childhood and my adolescence, I knew what it was like to live under a dictatorship in my country. I remember the feeling of oppression, when we returned to democracy we learned about the barbarities that happened in that period. But it can not be compared to the tragedy of dictatorships in Europe, and World War II.
And the tragedies did not end on April 25 ... on April 29, a massacre took place in the Veneto, which included the town of my grandfather, San Martino di Lupari, after clashes between partisans and the retreating German troops. When I saw the commemorative monolith, it gave me chills to see that several of the dead had my last name ...
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eccidio_di_Castello_di_Godego

Another disgrace: the Commander never paid any price for what he did. You can't even say this was some lower class brain washed Nazi SS stormtrooper. This was a Lieutenant General of the Wehrmacht.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Polack

When atrocities are committed on your home ground, when every other village has a monument to the men, but also, and sometimes even more numerous women and children and old people, and when, as you say, you see family surnames on those monuments, it makes a difference.

I don't know how it is in Latin America, but in the Italy in which I grew up, and even, to some extent now, every Sunday after Mass you went to the cemetery to visit your loved ones. Particularly heart breaking were the "empty" tombs, because their bones couldn't even be identified.

You can't and shouldn't forget them.

italouruguayan
26-04-19, 02:53
Another disgrace: the Commander never paid any price for what he did. You can't even say this was some lower class brain washed Nazi SS stormtrooper. This was a Lieutenant General of the Wehrmacht.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Polack

When atrocities are committed on your home ground, when every other village has a monument to the men, but also, and sometimes even more numerous women and children and old people, and when, as you say, you see family surnames on those monuments, it makes a difference.

I don't know how it is in Latin America, but in the Italy in which I grew up, and even, to some extent now, every Sunday after Mass you went to the cemetery to visit your loved ones. Particularly heart breaking were the "empty" tombs, because their bones couldn't even be identified.

You can't and shouldn't forget them.

Exact. It is the only way to avoid the repetition of such tragedies in the future ...

Urahaydres
03-07-19, 15:05
Agree with you, dude

Salento
09-10-19, 18:19
from 2017 (New studies contradict some of the Blogger’s opinions)

Italian Genetics: Italy in 6 Parts
(... Google Translated from Italian, with a few tweaks :)

In this article I will try to do a genetic analysis of Italian ethnicity , based on the scientific evidence provided to us by the genetics of the populations and by the various DNA results of tests that I have been able to observe in recent years.

ITALIAN ETHNICITY

When we speak of Italian ethnicity, we generally refer to a group of people who, although united by the same nationality, present marked cultural and linguistic differences between them depending on the area of ​​origin.

Beyond the Italian language, which is used by convention, there are many other dialects and languages ​​in the peninsula that change not only depending on the region, but often even after a few tens of kilometers within the same region.

Even the cultural traditions are quite varied, even if, starting from the unification of Italy, they are slowly disappearing.

If these differences can be perceived immediately because they appear obvious, there are however others that are out of sight but which are perhaps even more accentuated, namely the genetic ones.

Even from the genetic point of view, Italy appears to be fragmented: in Europe it is the most genetically inhomogeneous country, to the extent that the genetic differences between northern and southern Italy are greater than those that sometimes occur even between different nations.
Not only that, but these differences are rooted in very ancient times and were already consolidated already in the pre-Roman era, although obviously some small local variations occurred even in later historical periods.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-P8BQeevsHYY/WiXmhc4z-HI/AAAAAAAAB2Y/SneZHjM6NF0ADeThCtpoig6-9CPx1DKNgCLcBGAs/s1600/genetica%2Bitaliana%2Betnia%2Bitaliana.png

Italian genetics
There are clearly some points in common among all the Italians of the peninsula, first of all the distinctly Neolithic substratum, inherited from those populations coming from the Middle East (I, me, Salento say Anatolia, and some old Iran) who brought agriculture to Europe in the Neolithic era.
This genetic contribution, expanding throughout the boot and being slowed down in its diffusion in the rest of Europe by the Alpine geographical barrier, makes Italy a genetically South-European Country also with regard to its northern part, which is positioned in the PCA graphs (like the one above) even below other countries, such as Serbia, which are located at a lower latitude on the map.

Clearly every area of ​​Italy has a different percentage of Neolithic genetics, less in the North than in the South and maximum in Sardinia which, being an island, has remained largely preserved by the influence of the various successive immigration waves (mainly Greco-Anatolian and Phoenician from the east and Indo-European from the north).
From the genetic point of view, Italy can be distinguished in at least 6 distinct clusters (genetic groupings):

Northern Italy
Tuscany
Italy of the Center
South Italy
Sicily
Sardinia

Sometimes some further subdivisions are made (for example Sicily is divided into western and eastern regions, northern Italy is divided into regions), other times central Italy is omitted and Sicily is incorporated into the south, but I would say that 6 geographical / genetic areas they are a good reference for the analysis we need to do.

These areas differ from each other both in terms of autosomal analysis and haplogroups.
If you still do not have these terms clear, I refer you to these two articles, so you can have a general idea before continuing the reading:

DNA TEST
Haplogroup

The genetic distance between the various clusters, which can be assessed by observing the position of each on a PCA graph like the one examined above, only partially reflects the geographical distance.
Sicily, for example, is often genetically located more to the north than the rest of Southern Italy, more similar to the center, while Sardinia, despite being to the west of the boot, occupies a position much more distant from the other Italian clusters than the one on the graph it could be supposed and suggests a much stronger genetic isolation than the geographical one and certainly unique in Europe.
Clearly the determination of the clusters is based on a limited number of samples from a restricted geographical area.
In the case of northern Italy, for example, the cluster is based on a sample of a dozen analyzed of Bergamo, which are taken as a reference for Northern Italy but are certainly not representative of the whole Padana area or even of the whole of Lombardy, but they nevertheless constitute a valid reference.

ITALIAN HAPLOGROUPS
The first difference between the areas of Italy is found in the distribution of the haplogroups and in particular of the haplogroups of the Y chromosome.
As I have already explained in the article I linked to above, haplogroups are often overrated and provide really minimal indications on the genetic background of the individual.

In fact, they are able to tell us from which area a distant ancestor of ours came in a straight line, but without giving us any indication of all the other ancestors who contributed to our genetic heritage.

However, if we have to analyze an entire population, understanding which are the most widespread haplogroups can be quite useful because it gives us an idea of ​​the displacements of populations that occurred in a given area.
As for Italy, we can see in the following map of Eupedia how the various haplogroups have expanded along the territory.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Jsejy9B0r6A/WibUyw3IskI/AAAAAAAAB2s/5N8CYM1ES1kiMgvLwdNMUC6OSPD4qRjIgCLcBGAs/s1600/genetica%2Bitaliana%2Betnia%2Bitaliana.png1.jpg


The Italian haplogroups analyzed by Eupedia can be divided chronologically into 3 groups:

Autochthonous European Mesolithic:
I1: Pre-Germanic
I2a1: Sardinian, Iberian
I2a2: Pre-Celtic-Germanic

Neolithic:
G2a: Caucasian, Greek Anatolian
E1b1: North African, Balkan, Middle Eastern
T: (Black Sea), Middle Eastern, East African

Bronze Age:
R1a: Balto-Slavic, Germanic, Indo-Iranian
R1b: Celto-Italic, Hittite, Armenian, Tocaro
J1: Caucasian, Mesopotamian, Semitic (Arabs, Jews)
J2: Greek-Anatolian, Caucasian, Mesopotamian

Clearly not all Italians who inherited a given haplogroup belong to the same clade, so the information given by this type of map turns out to be very generic.

The haplogroup R1b found in Italy, for example, is more frequent in its U-152 clade, that is the Celto-Italic one, taking its name from the populations that spread it in the peninsula, while its middle-eastern clades are rarer.

Without making distinctions of clades (but always keeping in mind this point), haplogroup R1b is the most frequent of all in Central-Northern Italy, occurring in about 50% of the population, while in Southern Italy it is found only in 25% and leaves room for the haplogroup J2,which in the center-north amounts to about 10% while in the central-south area it doubles, as does the haplogroup J1 , passing from 1.5% in the north to about 3.5-4% in the South and Sicily.

Even the haplogroup E1b1b undergoes a rapid growth in percentage passing from about 10% of central north to about 20% in the South (while central Italy in this case preserves percentages closer to those of the center-north.).

In Sardinia instead haplogroup I2a1 dominates, which is that of the Ancient Mesolithic Hunter-Gatherers, and is found in the measure of 37.5% (where in continental Italy its presence does not go beyond the 1-3%), followed by an 18.5 % of R1b and 12% of G2a.
Minor but significant is also the presence of some Y haplogroups that are due, at least in part, to the various invasions of Germanic peoples such as the Lombards and the Normans.
I refer overall to the haplogroups I1 and I2a2 (or I2b), and secondly to the R1a.

These haplogroups are found more frequently in the North, while in the south they are rarer, except for single areas such as Palermo and Sannio / Irpinia, which were places of massive Germanic presence, although this genetic impact manifests itself almost exclusively to level of haplogroups, while to the autosomal analysis, as we shall see, there are no huge traces of northern European genetics.

This is probably due to the fact that Men have always moved less than Women, who often changed cities / villages to reach that of their future husband (who instead generally inherited the family home).

This is also the reason why the maternal mtDNA haplogroups, which in Italy are predominantly H, U, T and J are more evenly distributed in the territory than those of the Y chromosome.

ITALIAN AUTOSOMAL DNA
As we have seen in the specific article on the test DNA analysis, autosomal DNA analysis can lead to different results depending on the type of admixture.
As for the analyzes carried out through programs based on admixtures, in general they are taken from 7 reference:

Admixture North Sea: it is found in maximum concentration in Scotland and western Norway
Admixture Atlantic: maximum concentration in the Basque Country.
Admixture Baltic: epicenter in Lithuania and the Baltic countries in general
Admixture Eastern European: epicenter in central Russia
Admixture Mediterranean: typically Sardinian
Admixture West Asian: admixture of Caucasian type
Admixture East mediterranean: epicenter in the Middle East, Lebanon and Syria

These are some of the most common admixtures when analyzing the oldest genetics of an individual.

Sometimes these admixtures are further subdivided, other times they are incorporated between them, as is the case for example of the Dodecad calculator on which the Italian maps I present below are based. The first 4 are those that interest us most.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-iJ0jUODcvy0/WigvovLxB8I/AAAAAAAAB3g/48sUnmmjLZkes91lWYYLERj2WVt2eRGTACLcBGAs/s1600/genetica%2Bitaliana%2Betnia%2Bitaliana1.png

The northwest european admixture is a mix of north sea and atlantic and shows a distribution in europe similar to that of haplogroup R1b.
It is therefore the admixture that in all probability was brought to Italy by Celts and Italics (but partly also by Germanic peoples).

The east european is instead an admixture that encompasses the east european and baltic admixture, and is an admixture similar to the distribution of the haplogroup R1a and arrived in Italy with the last Germanic invasions, but perhaps even much earlier, through the
Amber-way (https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_dell%27ambra)

The Mediterranean it is probably the oldest admixture and, as you can see, it is distributed a little in all of Italy, acting as a glue between the various ancient populations of the boot.

It is an admixture that, similarly to the Atlantic, is given by a mix between the genetics of the Mesolithic hunter-gatherers and the subsequent Levantine farmers.

The west asian came to Italy probably during the Bronze Age and is associated with the distribution of the haplogroup J2


As you can see the percentage of the various admixtures changes quite significantly depending on the geographical area of ​​reference, which is why those who speak of Italy as a genetic whole show little competence in this matter.

Below is a table showing the autosomal results of another calculator, Eurogenes k15:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6WOrAsG0rx0/WihwILytxOI/AAAAAAAAB4E/rrZVIZfRqk4ip5xzDr3D1VjA2rVBrFkAgCLcBGAs/s1600/genetica%2Bitaliana%2Betnia%2Bitaliana3.png

SARDINIAN GENETICS
The enormous percentage of West Med admixture that covers almost half of the Sardinian genetic heritage is immediately evident, followed by a 20% Atlantic admixture. These two admixtures, as already mentioned, represent a mixture between the genetics of ancient Mesolithic Hunter-Gatherers (a group of which moved about 11 thousand years ago from the north of Spain to reach the island) and the first Farmers arrived in Europe in the Neolithic, to whom the Sardinians turn out to be the most genetically similar modern population.
The genetic homogeneity of the Sardinian population is the explanation of 2 particular phenomena found on the island:

The shortage of phenotypes: generally it does not range beyond the gracile Mediterranean and the alpine (often present in its most "raw" berid, also called paleosarda). At most we can find some Atlantean-Mediterranean, mostly in the northern part of the island, which is the one that has undergone major continental (Roman) influences.

Longevity Records: contrary to what most people believe, it is not the most mixed populations that are healthier and longer-lived, but generally the more homogeneous ones.

SICILIAN GENETIC DIVERSITIES
There is also a subdivision in two parts of Sicily, a western part that appears to have had a greater Atlantic contribution and a Caucasian minor with respect to both the eastern counterpart and the southern mainland Italy, which appears to have also suffered major influences from the eastern Mediterranean and minor ones from northwestern Europe.

This explains why, as we mentioned at the beginning, some Sicilians tend to be genetically more akin to central Italians, showing a noticeable difference from southern Italians even at the level of somatic traits.

The facial index of the Sicilians is in fact higher than that of the other southerners and more often they are found Sicilian with a Panitalian phenotype than for example in Campania, which instead usually have a phenotype much more characteristic of their area.

The first one that comes to mind is Joe Dimaggio, whose parents were from the Palermo area, of very high stature and of a dinaricized Atlantic-Mediterranean phenotype.


23andme AUTOSOMAL DNA
23andme is a DNA test that aims to analyze the recent genetic (say the last 2000 years), so now let's jump ahead in time than just genetics that analyzed Italian based on the most ancient admixtures.

Here in the figure below we have a series of maps created based on the ancestral composition of the 23andme Italian users.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ec-p8-Lp89g/WiiVUJAbBzI/AAAAAAAAB4k/tBVopJ0GpD0WRE_2htZ8sx0IvaOPE10JgCLcBGAs/s1600/genetica%2Bitaliana%2Betnia%2Bitaliana%2B243.png

As you can see, a large part of the various preceding admixtures, here leaves room for a generic Italian genetics, which constitutes a subgroup of the Southern European which is present in the vast majority of the Italian population.

This "Italian" encompass all ancient peoples who passed through Italy and the highest concentration of a “BASIC ITALIAN” is in the Center, the area that has had less newer influx and where it is less likely to have occurred overlapping with other ancestral groups.

Northern Italy, for example, has a strong overlap with northern European genetic groups (we recall that in 23andme, northern Europe also includes Alpine countries such as Austria and Switzerland and also western countries such as France, including the southern part which is in fact at a lower latitude to that of northern Italy) although the different distribution of the percentages of northern European genetics in the various areas of the north still makes it possible to establish which were the areas of northern Italy that suffered a greater recent Germanic influence, probably dating back to the late Roman Empire.

ITALIAN NORTHERN EUROPEAN GENETICS
If you look carefully at the map below, you can notice that in the north there is a certain overlap between the map of the blond type published in Biasutti's book and based on the studies by Ridolfo Livi and the percentage of Northern European genetics.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GVk9VRXrhGI/WilmCANIdTI/AAAAAAAAB40/pThXuD4M7ooRmEx846I-88cZm1-moNfTACLcBGAs/s1600/genetica%2Bitaliana%2Betnia%2Bitaliana%2B243.png4. png

The more a population presents blondism, the higher the average percentage of NE present among the individuals of the area of ​​reference.
The difference is particularly evident between the top and down of the Po Plain.
Emilia and Romagna tend to have a percentage of NE that is far lower than that of individuals who are just a few tens of kilometers away, and this difference also places them in a position much further south in the various PCA graphs.

Many Emilians and Romagnans tend to be genetically more akin to Tuscans than to other northerners, so much so that it could very well be said that genetic Northern Italy ends with the Po (river) (although clearly then there are some appendages even further south, for example Tuscany northern region that is considered as Northern Italy).

ITALIAN MENA
A similar argument can be made in the South with the MENA genetics (middle eastern-north african ed.) Concentrated mainly in areas where the population tends to have darker hair.
This genetics, as explained in my old article on southern Italians , is not attributable to the Saracens (as many people commonly think) but is more Middle Eastern than North African (Sicily for example has about 10% of MENA but, of this, less than 1% is North African) and probably arrived in Italy during the late Roman Empire, as Coon had also suggested in its taxonomic analysis
.
CONCLUSIONS
In this article I have tried to summarize the Genetics of Italian Ethnicity.
It is very varied and presents significant differences between the various areas.
Although united by a common Neolithic substratum, modern Italians have a genetic profile that changes according to the region or macro-area of ​​origin and this makes them a unique nation in the European Genetic Context and unique in its kind.

https://www.ilredpillatore.org/2017/12/la-genetica-italiana-litalia-in-6-parti.html?m=1

Salento
09-10-19, 20:31
Strange, my Eurogenes K15 Baltic (7.59) and Eastern Euro (5.27) are higher than all the Italian averages below, (wondering the accuracy, maybe a Salento/Puglia thing, or it’s just me) I also don’t get any Amerindian, Oceania, Northeast Africa, Sub Sahara.

Eurogenes K15:
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6WOrAsG0rx0/WihwILytxOI/AAAAAAAAB4E/rrZVIZfRqk4ip5xzDr3D1VjA2rVBrFkAgCLcBGAs/s1600/genetica%2Bitaliana%2Betnia%2Bitaliana3.png

Angela
09-10-19, 20:52
Just started reading this, Salento.

Imo, they're incorrect about some of the details. Perhaps it hasn't been updated recently?

For example, they're incorrect about the relative percentages of Neolithic ancestry in Italy depending on the region.

EEF is actually highest in Northern Italy, then Tuscany, then Central Italy, and then the South. It's because the "Iran Neo/CHG" is highest in the south and that replaced EEF somewhat, and also because of some additional more recent ancestry in places like Sicily, for instance.

As for Sardinia, the latest paper indicates that it wasn't as isolated as used to be believed. The population in the remote mountain plateau from which many of the samples chosen by Cavalli-Sforza originated is a case apart, and, by the way, whether the I2a there came from the Mesolithic inhabitants or a group arriving later in the Neolithic is very much open to question.

Likewise, while it's true that for a long time studies used only the sample from Bergamo for various analyses, researchers now have access to more Northern Italian samples.

Generally speaking, a lot of what they're saying about haplogroups is speculation not yet verified by ancient dna, and I don't find their labels helpful. Calling U-152 Celto-Germanic is anachronistic, for one thing, and certain clades of E1b1b found in Italy definitely arrived after the Neolithic. It's also not helpful relying on old maps that don't show sub-lineages. In the case of E1b1b it's impossible to analyze the arrival of various lineages in Italy without knowing that.

I have the same sort of problems with the autosomal analysis. There aren't "masses" of "Germanic" ancestry anywhere in Sicily. I don't know where that comes from, although that's just one example. In addition, we've come a long way from the Dodecad analyses. By this point, we, in addition to Dienekes, know that those clusters are themselves admixtures, and not the most informative way of analyzing autosomal ancestry. Some of the verbiage also has that old theapricity, forumbiodiversity feeling, filtered through, I would bet, the prism of some of the Northern Italian members who frequented those forums.

It's just wrong in a lot of the particulars, and very outdated, imo.

Sorry, Salento, nothing personal, but that's my opinion.

FWIW, I think the pigmentation map is fine for real "locals"; it's not an accurate description of what you'd see walking around the street anywhere north of Rome. Too bad also that the writer of the article doesn't know the parameters of Emilia versus Romagna, or the location of the Po. If he knew the latter he'd know that the "fairest" areas of Emilia are south of the Po, and the lightest area in that whole region is in the northwestern part of Toscana, just south of the border with Emilia.

Salento
09-10-19, 21:04
@Angela
It’s from 2017, we know much more now :)

It’s just a 2 years old perspective of an Italian Blogger.

I’ll re-label it, or if you like, it’s OK to delete the entire Post.

Angela
09-10-19, 23:41
@Angela
It’s from 2017, we know much more now :)

It’s just a 2 years old perspective of an Italian Blogger.

I’ll re-label it, or if you like, it’s OK to delete the entire Post.

No, of course, not. :) We just don't want to confuse newbies that this is the latest word, so I thought some reaction was warranted.

I()
10-10-19, 00:37
You are crazy? Madam secretary (https://www.google.com/search?q=Madam&newwindow=1&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=ACYBGNSlm96uKGyrUMUPhGVP5yGpbmo-Og:1570660546492&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiwvr6_npDlAhXPxqQKHWf_CI4Q_AUIEigC&biw=1366&bih=693#imgrc=QdRYrFIDOodw_M:)...

I()
10-10-19, 00:55
:heart:neeeed answer,vlooool:confused2:

Angela
10-10-19, 00:57
You are crazy? Madam secretary (https://www.google.com/search?q=Madam&newwindow=1&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=ACYBGNSlm96uKGyrUMUPhGVP5yGpbmo-Og:1570660546492&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiwvr6_npDlAhXPxqQKHWf_CI4Q_AUIEigC&biw=1366&bih=693#imgrc=QdRYrFIDOodw_M:)...

Are you tired of posting here again?

You really want to do this dance one more time?

Keep a civil tongue in your head.

I()
10-10-19, 01:01
Are you tired of posting here again?

You really want to do this dance one more time?

Keep a civil tongue in your head....! ce bâlmajești acolo?:bored::useless:
I still think you're talking about yourself. Madam Secretary. :innocent:

I()
10-10-19, 01:07
se you lol. gooooagal.

I()
10-10-19, 01:23
https://www.google.com/search?q=Madam&newwindow=1&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=ACYBGNSlm96uKGyrUMUPhGVP5yGpbmo-Og:1570660546492&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiwvr6_npDlAhXPxqQKHWf_CI4Q_AUIEigC&biw=1366&bih=693#imgrc=QdRYrFIDOodw_M:

Angela
10-10-19, 02:36
https://www.google.com/search?q=Madam&newwindow=1&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=ACYBGNSlm96uKGyrUMUPhGVP5yGpbmo-Og:1570660546492&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiwvr6_npDlAhXPxqQKHWf_CI4Q_AUIEigC&biw=1366&bih=693#imgrc=QdRYrFIDOodw_M:

Like the character, like her style, like Tea Leoni. Thanks. I think I'll start watching it. :)

dominique_nuit
10-10-19, 09:40
from 2017 (New studies contradict some of the Blogger’s opinions)
ITALIAN MENA
A similar argument can be made in the South with the MENA genetics (middle eastern-north african ed.) Concentrated mainly in areas where the population tends to have darker hair.
This genetics, as explained in my old article on southern Italians , is not attributable to the Saracens (as many people commonly think) but is more Middle Eastern than North African (Sicily for example has about 10% of MENA but, of this, less than 1% is North African) and probably arrived in Italy during the late Roman Empire, as Coon had also suggested in its taxonomic analysis




Late Roman Empire? Do we have any evidence to support this? I was under the impression that the South of Italy was more or less "genetically complete" after the Greek migrations of the Magna Graecia era, which probably did little more than reinforce the Iranian-like J2a-led incursions of the EBA




In Sardinia instead haplogroup I2a1 dominates, which is that of the Ancient Mesolithic Hunter-Gatherers, and is found in the measure of 37.5% (where in continental Italy its presence does not go beyond the 1-3%)



I wonder how much of the Sardinian I2a1 is M26 and M423, which is to say Chalcolithic migrations from the Balkans, per the Olalde et al study on Ancient Iberia

dominique_nuit
10-10-19, 09:57
Was the influx of Iranian-like CHG (caucasian hunter gatherer) across Anatolia into Greece & Southern Italy during the EBA (early bronze age) already admixed with Yamnaya or was it somehow more "pristine" at this stage?

I assume that the CHG would have mixed with whatever else was in Anatolia & Greece en route to Italy?

Also, isn't Iran Neo/CHG thought to be a component of Yamnaya, along with EHG & Ancient North Eurasian?

Jovialis
11-10-19, 23:24
Just started reading this, Salento.

Imo, they're incorrect about some of the details. Perhaps it hasn't been updated recently?

For example, they're incorrect about the relative percentages of Neolithic ancestry in Italy depending on the region.

EEF is actually highest in Northern Italy, then Tuscany, then Central Italy, and then the South. It's because the "Iran Neo/CHG" is highest in the south and that replaced EEF somewhat, and also because of some additional more recent ancestry in places like Sicily, for instance.

As for Sardinia, the latest paper indicates that it wasn't as isolated as used to be believed. The population in the remote mountain plateau from which many of the samples chosen by Cavalli-Sforza originated is a case apart, and, by the way, whether the I2a there came from the Mesolithic inhabitants or a group arriving later in the Neolithic is very much open to question.

Likewise, while it's true that for a long time studies used only the sample from Bergamo for various analyses, researchers now have access to more Northern Italian samples.

Generally speaking, a lot of what they're saying about haplogroups is speculation not yet verified by ancient dna, and I don't find their labels helpful. Calling U-152 Celto-Germanic is anachronistic, for one thing, and certain clades of E1b1b found in Italy definitely arrived after the Neolithic. It's also not helpful relying on old maps that don't show sub-lineages. In the case of E1b1b it's impossible to analyze the arrival of various lineages in Italy without knowing that.

I have the same sort of problems with the autosomal analysis. There aren't "masses" of "Germanic" ancestry anywhere in Sicily. I don't know where that comes from, although that's just one example. In addition, we've come a long way from the Dodecad analyses. By this point, we, in addition to Dienekes, know that those clusters are themselves admixtures, and not the most informative way of analyzing autosomal ancestry. Some of the verbiage also has that old theapricity, forumbiodiversity feeling, filtered through, I would bet, the prism of some of the Northern Italian members who frequented those forums.

It's just wrong in a lot of the particulars, and very outdated, imo.

Sorry, Salento, nothing personal, but that's my opinion.

FWIW, I think the pigmentation map is fine for real "locals"; it's not an accurate description of what you'd see walking around the street anywhere north of Rome. Too bad also that the writer of the article doesn't know the parameters of Emilia versus Romagna, or the location of the Po. If he knew the latter he'd know that the "fairest" areas of Emilia are south of the Po, and the lightest area in that whole region is in the northwestern part of Toscana, just south of the border with Emilia.


Most Yamnaya genomes studied to date exhibit admixedEHG & CHG ancestry with each in robust proportions, oftenwith CHG ancestry higher than 50% (Wang et al. 2018: Figure2c).

https://www.academia.edu/39985565/Archaeology_Genetics_and_Language_in_the_Steppes_A _Comment_on_Bomhard


PCA (Fig. 2B ) indicates that all the Anatolian genome sequences from the Early Bronze Age (~2200 BCE) and Late Bronze Age (~1600 BCE) cluster with a previously sequenced Copper Age (~3900 to 3700 BCE) individual from Northwestern Anatolia and lie between Anatolian Neolithic (Anatolia_N) samples and CHG samples but not between Anatolia_N and EHG samples. A test of the form D(CHG, Mbuti; Anatolia_EBA, Anatolia_N) shows that these individuals share more alleles with CHG than Neolithic Anatolians do (Z = 3.95), and we are not able to reject a two-population qpAdm model in which these groups derive ~60% of their ancestry from Anatolian farmers and ~40% from CHG-related ancestry (P = 0.5). This signal is not driven by Neolithic Iranian ancestry, because the result of a similar test of the form D(Iran_N, Mbuti; Anatolia_EBA, Anatolia_N) does not deviate from zero (Z = 1.02).Taken together with recent findings of CHG ancestry on Crete (58), our results support a widespread CHG-related gene flow, not only into Central Anatolia but also into the areas surrounding the Black Sea and Crete. The latter are not believed to have been influenced by steppe-related migrations and may thus correspond to a shared archaeological horizon of trade and innovation in metallurgy (59).

https://science.sciencemag.org/conte...b-figures-data (https://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6396/eaar7711/tab-figures-data)

Here's something interesting I noticed, Yamnaya is 10% more CHG than even Anatolian Bronze-Age on average. Perhaps that's why the Raveane et al paper suggests that it may be underestimated in Modern European populations.

I believe it was only 40% by previous estimates for Yamnaya, in Haak et al 2015.

Angela
12-10-19, 00:18
Here's something interesting I noticed, Yamnaya is 10% more CHG than even Anatolian Bronze-Age on average. Perhaps that's why the Raveane et al paper suggests that it may be underestimated in Modern European populations.

I believe it was only 40% by previous estimates for Yamnaya, in Haak et al 2015.

Hush! Some prominent "bloggers" and "posters" would prefer to bury that. :)

The CHG percentages vary depending on the location on the steppe and the time period, but yes, from my recollection, most of Yamnaya has 40% or more.

Jovialis
12-10-19, 00:39
Hush! Some prominent "bloggers" and "posters" would prefer to bury that. :)

The CHG percentages vary depending on the location on the steppe and the time period, but yes, from my recollection, most of Yamnaya has 40% or more.

Ultimately, math is their true detractor. :)

Angela
12-10-19, 01:44
Was the influx of Iranian-like CHG (caucasian hunter gatherer) across Anatolia into Greece & Southern Italy during the EBA (early bronze age) already admixed with Yamnaya or was it somehow more "pristine" at this stage?

I assume that the CHG would have mixed with whatever else was in Anatolia & Greece en route to Italy?

Also, isn't Iran Neo/CHG thought to be a component of Yamnaya, along with EHG & Ancient North Eurasian?

If David Anthony is to be believed, and we know he has worked with the Reich Lab in the past, the first movement onto the steppe from the south of the Caucasus was of CHG as defined perhaps as Kotias like, and they were still hunter/fishers. They carried no Anatolian Neo. I'm not so sure that it was necessarily "CHG" as in the 10,000 year old HG population. We may not have a sample for the precise group which brought this "Iranian like" admixture to the steppe, but I do agree it probably arrived very early on, because some of the researchers even model EHG as having a bit of CHG, and there's that J up around Karelia.

Later, Anthony is of the opinion that cattle and sheep flowed north. Perhaps the CHG or whatever admixing group from the south it was had maintained contact with the groups south of the Caucasus?

From pretty early on there was extensive admixture in the Near East of Levant Neo, Anatolian Neo and Iran Neo. Some have even found some admixture in very early times, despite that paper saying they were three very disparate populations. Certainly, if by Iran Neo people mean the sample in the very south of Iran, close to Mesopotamia, it makes sense it would have some other admixtures perhaps even a bit from India.

Still, Iran Neo and CHG are very similar. Given that fact, and given that both might very well have arrived further west admixed with Anatolian Neo, and would have met EEF people who were mostly Anatolian Neo, I'm a little skeptical that the researchers have the strands totally separated and dated as to arrival time. So, for example, I'm a bit skeptical that Raveane et al have really found a distinct "Iranian Neo" signal in southern Italy.

As for the nature of the "Caucasus" like admixture which arrived in Greece, as well as the steppe admixture, I think it's best to go to Lazaridis' paper on the Mycenaeans and Minoans.

All in all I think it's clear why the researchers talk about "CHG/Iranian like" admixture on the steppe, in the Near East, and in Europe. What is clear is that it, whatever "it" is, and whatever its variations, is a Near Eastern centered "component", as WHG is a European centered component, whether it offends Daviski's white nationalist sentiments or not.

Jovialis
13-10-19, 15:18
I guess this makes Norwegians the most CHG/Iran-Neo, in Northern Europe. Since they are the most Yamnaya, according to Haak et al 2015.

Salento
02-02-20, 04:55
My Italian-American Genetic Communities!

https://i.imgur.com/GUNQ8JK.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/vA1mpCD.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/55rqkI5.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/NaimTO2.jpg

Winston
07-09-20, 16:06
Hi, I'm a Northern (Lombardy)/Central-Southern (mostly Abruzzo with a bit of Umbrian) mix. I suppose I descend from many different Italic peoples.

It's curious for me to see this is an "Italy & Greece" sub-forum, I'm not sure what's the link which I undoubtedly see in the Benelux, Ireland & UK, Spain and Portugal sub-forums for example.

Salento
07-09-20, 18:35
Hi, I'm a Northern (Lombardy)/Central-Southern (mostly Abruzzo with a bit of Umbrian) mix. I suppose I descend from many different Italic peoples.

It's curious for me to see this is an "Italy & Greece" sub-forum, I'm not sure what's the link which I undoubtedly see in the Benelux, Ireland & UK, Spain and Portugal sub-forums for example.

Umbria and Abruzzo have much more in common with Greece than the countries you mention, and they are part of your genetic connection!to Greece.

Winston
07-09-20, 18:40
Umbria and Abruzzo have much more in common with Greece than the countries you mention. That’s your genetic connection!to Greece.
Do you really mean that Umbria and Abruzzo have more in common with Greece than UK has in common with Ireland, Spain with Portugal and Benelux countries have with one another? Sorry but I strongly disagree.

By the way, also in absolute terms I don't see a special connection of Italy to Greece (except maybe in those parts which were Greek colonies 2500 years ago), not in food, not in architecture, not in religion, pretty much in nothing really.

Nothing but respect for Greece and the Greeks but that's reality of everyday life (and being from norther Italy, geography).

Bottom line the "Italy & Greece" subforum strikes me as odd, but no problem with it I really don't care if that's how the site was designed.

Salento
07-09-20, 19:13
Do you really mean that Umbria and Abruzzo have more in common with Greece than UK has in common with Ireland, Spain with Portugal and Benelux countries have with one another? Sorry but I strongly disagree.

By the way, also in absolute terms I don't see a special connection of Italy to Greece (except maybe in those parts which were Greek colonies 2500 years ago), not in food, not in architecture, not in religion, pretty much in nothing really.

Nothing but respect for Greece and the Greeks but that's reality of everyday life (and being from norther Italy, geography).

Bottom line the "Italy & Greece" subforum strikes me as odd, but no problem with it I really don't care if that's how the site was designed.

Italy is not confined to your town, ... and you just listed some important Italian connections to Greece, ... and you showed that the main title is not odd, thanks :)

Winston
07-09-20, 19:26
Italy is not confined to your town, ... and you just listed some important Italian connections to Greece, ... and you showed that the main title is not odd, thanks :)
Northern Italy is not a town, contrary to what some may think in the US. And no, really, I did not list any "important Italian connections to Greece", quite the opposite in fact. I rest my case that an "Italy & Greece" subforum is curious, at least as much as a "France & Germany" subforum would be. Anyway I drop it as it seems to be a sensitive issue for you.

Salento
07-09-20, 19:44
Northern Italy is not a town, contrary to what some may think in the US. And no, really, I did not list any "important Italian connections to Greece", quite the opposite in fact. I rest my case that an "Italy & Greece" subforum is curious, at least as much as a "France & Germany" subforum would be. Anyway I drop it as it seems to be a sensitive issue for you.

You mentioned the Greek Colonies (Magna Grecia), that’s important enough to contradict your case!

... If you reply than I would say you are the sensitive one.

and for the record: la geografia l'ho studiata a Lecce!

Winston
07-09-20, 19:49
You listed the Greek Colonies (Magna Grecia), that’s important enough to contradict your case!
Cool. Next time an "Italy & France" subforum then because of the Gauls in both France and Northern Italy, or an "Italy & Croatia" one because of Istria and Dalmazia, or an "Italy & Spain" because of the Aragonese rule in Southern Italy, or an "Italy & Britain" subforum because of the Roman Empire, or... :laughing:

Jokes aside, I'm surprised that an Italian wouldn't consider that Italy "alone" makes sense in a subforum. Have it how you like it anyway, as you seem emotionally attacked to the "Magna Graecia" thingy.

Salento
07-09-20, 20:03
Cool. Next time an "Italy & France" subforum then because of the Gauls in both France and Northern Italy, or an "Italy & Croatia" one because of Istria and Dalmazia, or an "Italy & Spain" because of the Aragonese rule in Southern Italy, or an "Italy & Britain" subforum because of the Roman Empire, or... :laughing:

Jokes aside, I'm surprised that an Italian wouldn't consider that Italy "alone" makes sense in a subforum. Have it how you like it anyway, as you seem emotionally attacked to the "Magna Graecia" thingy.

yes, Italy alone would obviously make sense, and we have many threads about Italy. You should browse around the forum and see for yourself.

You were talking about the title of the thread and Italy and Greece have a strong ancient genetic connection especially in some parts of Italy.

Winston
07-09-20, 20:22
yes, Italy alone would obviously make sense, and we have many threads about Italy. You should browse around the forum and see for yourself.

So that there are no misunderstandings: I’m not talking about threads (as a matter of fact this is about Italics) I’m talking about this subforum quite randomly (if you ask me unless you are an ancient Greek from Salento) called “Italy & Greece”.

Salento
07-09-20, 20:30
So that there are no misunderstandings: I’m not talking about threads (as a matter of fact this is about Italics) I’m talking about this subforum quite randomly (if you ask me unless you are an ancient Greek from Salento) called “Italy & Greece”.

I’m not an Ancient Greek, I’m probably more Italian than you are.

... and even if I was an Ancient Greek it would be ok by me.

https://i.imgur.com/cH9684i.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/KvknWVK.jpg

Winston
07-09-20, 20:36
Yes, I've noticed that in your head Italy means "territories formerly known as Magna Graecia".

If that is the case you are more "Italian" than me, indeed. :D

You are not alone though, it seems to be a common misconception around athrofora.

Salento
07-09-20, 20:56
Yes, I've noticed that in your head Italy means "territories formerly known as Magna Graecia".

If that is the case you are more "Italian" than me, indeed. :D

You are not alone though, it seems to be a common misconception around athrofora.

You have no idea what I'm thinking, and I have no idea what you're talking about!

... moving on !

Salento
07-09-20, 23:15
EDIT...

:thinking: after 2300+ years, the Latins R850 and R437 still share the same positions in my 8th and 20th chromosome, ... (they also share the same 8th chr. position with 3.300 BC Otzi):


https://i.imgur.com/K55eX5L.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/FTrvjgK.jpg

Salento
08-09-20, 05:01
​3.300 BC

... The Iceman, Otzi, is a descendant from the first farmers to have arrived in the Italian Peninsula, which may have harbored remnant hunter-gatherer populations during the Pleistocene who resettled Northern Europe with the glacier retreats ... (NatGeo) ... MTA:

https://i.imgur.com/8cE0Bq1.jpg

Jovialis
09-09-20, 13:58
Do you really mean that Umbria and Abruzzo have more in common with Greece than UK has in common with Ireland, Spain with Portugal and Benelux countries have with one another? Sorry but I strongly disagree.

By the way, also in absolute terms I don't see a special connection of Italy to Greece (except maybe in those parts which were Greek colonies 2500 years ago), not in food, not in architecture, not in religion, pretty much in nothing really.

Nothing but respect for Greece and the Greeks but that's reality of everyday life (and being from norther Italy, geography).

Bottom line the "Italy & Greece" subforum strikes me as odd, but no problem with it I really don't care if that's how the site was designed.


A sharp north-south division in cluster distribution was detected, the separation between northern and southern areas being shifted north along the peninsula (Fig. 1B (https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/9/eaaw3492.full#F1)) (12 (https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/9/eaaw3492.full#ref-12)). The reported structure dismissed the possibility that the Central Italian populations differentiated from the Northern and Southern Italian groups (Fig. 1A (https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/9/eaaw3492.full#F1)) (13 (https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/9/eaaw3492.full#ref-13)). Individuals from Central Italy were, in fact, assigned mostly to the Southern Italian clusters, except for samples from Tuscany, which grouped instead with the Northern Italian clusters (Fig. 1, A and B (https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/9/eaaw3492.full#F1)) (12 (https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/9/eaaw3492.full#ref-12)). Contrary to previous results, no outliers were detected among the Northern Italian clusters (12 (https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/9/eaaw3492.full#ref-12)).


https://i.imgur.com/wEB9YWY.png


https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/9/eaaw3492.full




Umbria and Abruzzo are genetically assigned as "Southern Italian" clusters. Which have similarity to Greeks. Peloponnesians are "east" of Italians in central Italy,

https://i.imgur.com/ED2PE7g.jpg

Jovialis
09-09-20, 14:06
Furthermore, there were a lot of Italics in the South, I seriously doubt we are predominately descended from Magna Grecia as a whole:

https://i.imgur.com/4XMwMK2.png

There are also the Iapygian (Illyrian) tribes to consider, who I speculate were similar to Mycenaeans.

As far as I know, R1 from Antonio et al 2019 is the only Italic that I've seen. She is similar to North Italians, which come out to be on the cline between European (65%) and Central Mediterranean population sources (35%).

https://i.imgur.com/5MZLIco.png

https://i.imgur.com/60sRnWo.png

I'm looking forward to see what these other Italic tribes are made of, like the Samnites, Lucanians, and Bruttians. I would suspect there is a cline, with Central Mediterranean increasing as you go south.

Winston
09-09-20, 19:09
Umbria and Abruzzo are genetically assigned as "Southern Italian" clusters. Which have similarity to Greeks. Peloponnesians are "east" of Italians in central Italy,

Thank you for the material. Even assuming this is correct (as an Italian knowing the inter-regional dynamics within Italy and people's movements IRL, I really struggle to see how someone from Umbria, but even an Abruzzese, may be genetically closer to a Greek than a Tuscan), that was really not my point: what I mean is, just because a part of Italy may bear genetic resemblance to Greece (or part of it) I don't see much sense in grouping these otherwise quite different countries in one subforum (just as one example of many, parts of France are genetically very similar to parts of Germany still I bet they would never be grouped together in a "France & Germany" subforum as it would make very little sense considering the marked cultural differences).

ihype02
09-09-20, 19:12
Furthermore, there were a lot of Italics in the South, I seriously doubt we are predominately descended from Magna Grecia as a whole.
I especially don't believe it for Apulia.

Pax Augusta
10-09-20, 16:57
Thank you for the material. Even assuming this is correct (as an Italian knowing the inter-regional dynamics within Italy and people's movements IRL, I really struggle to see how someone from Umbria, but even an Abruzzese, may be genetically closer to a Greek than a Tuscan), that was really not my point: what I mean is, just because a part of Italy may bear genetic resemblance to Greece (or part of it) I don't see much sense in grouping these otherwise quite different countries in one subforum (just as one example of many, parts of France are genetically very similar to parts of Germany still I bet they would never be grouped together in a "France & Germany" subforum as it would make very little sense considering the marked cultural differences).


In Italy there is a main cline that goes from north to south on a west-east axis, with the exception of some areas of north-eastern Italy that go to the northeast. The Abruzzese (genetically, culturally and linguistically are southern Italians) are more southeast of the Tuscans. The Umbrians are central Italians but they also seem on the whole to be a bit more southeast of the Tuscans, although on the whole they remain further north than the Abruzzese.

Obviously this is the genetic discourse, from a cultural point of view I understand that grouping all Italy with Greece does not reflect reality. The Italian Alps really have almost nothing in common culturally with Greece and have much more in common with neighbouring countries. As well as other areas of Italy have something more in common culturally with the south of France than with Greece. But even in southern France there is something Mediterranean like in Greece, unlike the rest of France which is clearly more a country similar to central Europe, or even in northern France, to the countries of northern Europe.


https://i.imgur.com/PvzUTJT.jpg

Jovialis
31-10-20, 03:05
According to Haak et al, Tuscans have about 30% PIE admixture.

It is amazing how advanced these spam bots are getting. This is extraordinary.

This user has other posts that are clearly spam, but this one makes it look like a legitimate user.

Regio X
31-10-20, 04:39
It is amazing how advanced these spam bots are getting. This is extraordinary.

This user has other posts that are clearly spam, but this one makes it look like a legitimate user.Indeed. The bot copied a phrase already used in this thread (page 1).