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View Full Version : Surnames and DNA/ I1 vs R1b-M222



Elian
22-03-15, 04:16
I had the 23andMe dna testing done and was found to be I1 Ydna. I have a 67 marker test in process from FTDNA which I have been waiting for results on since last December. They say they are extremely backed up. I went for the 67 marker test because for many years my famiy on my father's side had assumed we would be related to Molloys in Ireland and yet after joining our surname project, virtually all of them have the same ydna except me and the people I have spoken with say they think I would have maybe more luck joining an I1 project. Our family name on my father's side is Molloy. But there are also Bradys and Reardons. The Ydna line that all the Molloys in Ireland thus far show is R1b-m222 if I have that right. As I say, I was surprised when I got the 23andMe results back and it didn't match what I have assumed it would be all along. I'd never even heard of the I1 haplogroup but then again this is in fact all new to me. This got me to wondering if maybe we place more importance in thinking about who we may be related to in past times on our surname that maybe is warranted. Not sure at this late date how we can assume too much dna/genetically from our surname alone. We are so far along in history it would seem to me that so much could have happened including even a surname change for reasons unkown to us now at some point in our ancestral line. I can find out where the Molloys hailed from in Ireland at one time in history, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are actually even ancestors of mine simply based on my last name. I may be missing something but that seems to me to be the deal with the whole dna/ancestry issue. I've been doing a lot of checking with various people and groups and it seems I1 is pretty sparse in Ireland. I have had one man from Ireland who is part of the aforementioned Molloy project who tells me that not all Molloys came from Ireland but some families are from Scotland and have been all the way through. Not sure if that is true or not but that tidbit leaves me scratching my head even more. For me, it is about tracing familial/ancestral roots if possible and while I have certainly not given up on that, the I1 designation honestly tosses a wrench into the works. Not sure where to look with that being the case or where along the line the I1 came into the picture for someone who at least superficially has Irish ancestry. The other ironic thing in this is that on my mother's side I expected Scandinavian and German ancestry because those are the predominant surnames on that side and her younger brother tested with 23andMe and was found to be R1a. I know I need to wait for the 67 marker tests from FTDNA and both Mr Nordvedt and another man named Tyrone Bowes from Ireland have asked to see and maybe interpret my results when they come in. I am new to all of this and still stumbling around in the dark a bit. Just trying to more or less get a grip on how the heck I ended up being I1 on my father's side. I1 is from what I have seen not rare at all, but in the case of people with my Irish surname it is apparently extremely rare. Is it possible my I1 is actually a very old line that was native to Ireland and if so, why no other Molloys from Ireland with I1 Ydna? Is there any evidence that I1 also is found in more Celtic peoples? Pardon my ignorance, but these are questions I am asking to learn more. I might add that the only designation 23andMe gave was "I1". There was no more detailed breakdown of subclades. Maybe that is normal for autosomal results(?) The info I have received on the supposed Scottish origin 'Molloy' goes as follows:

MacGiollaruaidh – Scottish surname Anglicised as McGilroy, Gilroy, Milroy, Milloy, Melroy, Molloy and Melloy

Others have also mentioned people known as "Gallowglass Mercenaries" in reference to historical point I1 may have gotten into my Molloy family line but again, I am quite wet behind the ears when it comes to all of this. I know what they were historically but don't as yet understand how that might have anything to do with my ydna ancestral line. I must admit, I have become quite impatient and not a little irritated that FTDNA is taking so long to get my 67 marker results done so I can get the other subclade details.

sparkey
22-03-15, 08:25
I think you summarized things pretty well here, so there's probably not a lot more we can add until we see your results and determine what type of I1 you look like. I1 definitely has a Germanic rather than Celtic affinity, but it's not quite an exclusive relationship, and I1 hasn't always had the Germanic affinity if you go back far enough in human history. So who knows, you could be a Celtic outlier or something, keep us updated.

Maleth
22-03-15, 08:40
Welcome to the forum Elian. I would say relax and take a deep breath, its a long journey but you will learn something new as you go along which makes it interesting :). You need to digest information in manageable chunks as it can drive you crazy. Very often we think that DNA is the great miracle and its going to answer all our questions. Sometimes an answer will bring about more questions.

Surnames were only being 'officially' used in some kind of systematic way during the Norman period and most of them are just family nick names (in relation to work trades) or some kind of background. In the very early stages the same 'surnames' were even - either spelt differently or even changed from father to son, until some kind of continuity was established through better literacy and more accurate book keeping. That can easily mean that there are possibilities that people could be closer related to ones with a different surname then to someone who happened to have acquired the same surname (for whatever reason). There is also the issue of adoption (mostly slaves and servants) who were given family surname for records purposes and also the issue of kids out of wedlock. If one looks at a number of surname projects none of them are homogeneous so to speak. Remember that Ireland is around 80% R1b so you are bound to find that most surnames would be linked this haplogroup. I1 is less frequent but not rare at 6%.

You are unlucky with your results coming late, as I got mine much earlier. Will you be doing family finder with ftdna? That will give you a deeper insight and autosmal results. I was a little disappointed with my 67 Markers ydna as it did not change much info from when I only had 12 Markers. Ftdna will also provide you with some interesting maps and can later join Ysearch to see if you can get more matches besides its own search base. Regarding to very close matches you would be better off following some kind of paper trail up to were possible and link it with dna.

Keep us posted with your results

Elian
22-03-15, 08:48
Thank you for the reply sparkey. Are you an electrician per chance? Lol, with a name like 'sparkey' I thought maybe so because I am an electrician myself. I have been reading thesse forums for quite some time long before I ever joined and I see there are quite a few very knowledgeable people discusssing these issues. I wasn't going to join because from what I have read with all the numbers(subcaldes etc) being tossed around I realized I am pretty illiterate in comparison when it comes to the entire DNA ancestry paradigm. I am from the States and all that I do know is that the folks on my mother's side hailing from Norway, Denmark and Germany) came here first in the late 1800s. On my father's side from what we can tell in the mid 1800s. Not extremely late but quite late compared to many others I have spoken to who can trace their ancestry back further. I agree that I really need to wait to get the 67 marker results back to really get the details. I have just become a bit frustrated as I said because it is now going on 4 months and each month FTDNA changes the expected dates that the results should be completed. It gets right to the due date and on that day they once again change the dates. In the men time I have been looking around and had joined the Molloy Family dna project which is hosted in Ireland and was disappointed that no one in that group had the I1 ydna and none of them knew any Molloys who did either. They had one Molloy man they listed as I1 but he died way back in the 1500s. Not sure how they figured a man from that long ago was I1 but I guess they must have had some material from him that waas checked. Strange. This began for me with imply wanting to trace y familial line on my father's side so I took the 23andMe test first. I had already learned that most of the Molloys in Ireland of various spellings were all R1b_m222 and I have spoken with quite few of them. But once I got my I1 results in that kind of left me in the lurch. I was at dead end within the dna project specific to my own family surname. My hunch is it's not all that unusual, it'ss just that I am not sure where to go from here when it comes to researching my ancestry since the preddominant ydna haplogroup is unrelated to what mine is. I have seen that the I1 looks to be most repressented by people who live inland in Norway as well as Sweden and Denmark. Whhat that means to my particular I1 I obviously don't know yet. Just wish FTDNA would get it done so I could have it analyzed by the people who kow what they're looking at. Until those particular subclades are known, I fel like I really don't know exactly what my I1 connected to the Irish/Scottish surname might point to in terms of ancestral origins. I will definitely post the full scope of my results once they arrive.

Elian
22-03-15, 09:11
I did not see your reply Maleth. As to the surname info you posted, I have also been told the same. So many things could have happened over the centuries that directly relating our ancestral dna to our surname can be dicey. What's so funny about it all was my initial reaction. I found myself looking at my father and uncles very closely. Facial features etc. Lol. I suppose to see if they "looked Scandinavian". Ridiculous really, but I bet probably a common reaction. I have also noted that up unto my early teen years my hair was quite blonde, almost bleach blonde but with reddish highlights when light shone through it. My hair color has turned darker brown over the years but still maintains the red in it when light shines through. Meaning? I don't know other than reading red hair is supposedly common in Ireland. I also have oddly slanted eyelids. They are slanted downward toward the outside(opposite of asian slant to eyelids). It is such a noticeable trait that long before I had the test I always felt it made me appear a little different than other people. May be a meaningless detail but still noticeable. Difficult to describe what I mean. As far as ancesgtry goes, I know much lessss about my father'ss side than my mother's side. My father doesn't know anyone beyond his grandfather. On my mother's side my mother is H2A2B1 while her brothers and obviously my grandfather as well are R1a. I expected Scandinavian influece there because there are so many Scandinavian on that side of the family. German as well. I had believed my family was divided evenly between father'ss side = Irish and mother's side = German and am starting to see it doesn't necesssarily work that way.

Maleth
22-03-15, 11:19
We all go through that I guess one way or another, checking family members out to check what we get from whom :grin:. The truth is we are a product of so many generations from both father and mother side their parents their parents and so on. In reality y or mt dna does not determine phenotypes but the over all autosomal dna. There even can be marked differences between siblings let alone generations down the line. Once you get your results you will start getting some more indications as to where your ydna is more present. your snp man and matches map on your ftdna page will start indicating things, although you have to keep an open mind as these will just depend on how many people test and some countries are more enthusiastic then others.

I only had one exact match from South West Germany and genetic distance of 1 in Cornwall and Moscow. Last week had a genetic distance of 1 on 37 Markers (big improvement) from Ancona in Italy. You will have to be patient and wait for more and more people to test and check them out once in a while. But again that is just from the father line. From my mother side is a barrage of matches I lost count. With your ydna you could be limited like myself but say with R1b or R1a matches will be much much more common.

Aberdeen
23-03-15, 16:37
I did not see your reply Maleth. As to the surname info you posted, I have also been told the same. So many things could have happened over the centuries that directly relating our ancestral dna to our surname can be dicey. What's so funny about it all was my initial reaction. I found myself looking at my father and uncles very closely. Facial features etc. Lol. I suppose to see if they "looked Scandinavian". Ridiculous really, but I bet probably a common reaction. I have also noted that up unto my early teen years my hair was quite blonde, almost bleach blonde but with reddish highlights when light shone through it. My hair color has turned darker brown over the years but still maintains the red in it when light shines through. Meaning? I don't know other than reading red hair is supposedly common in Ireland. I also have oddly slanted eyelids. They are slanted downward toward the outside(opposite of asian slant to eyelids). It is such a noticeable trait that long before I had the test I always felt it made me appear a little different than other people. May be a meaningless detail but still noticeable. Difficult to describe what I mean. As far as ancesgtry goes, I know much lessss about my father'ss side than my mother's side. My father doesn't know anyone beyond his grandfather. On my mother's side my mother is H2A2B1 while her brothers and obviously my grandfather as well are R1a. I expected Scandinavian influece there because there are so many Scandinavian on that side of the family. German as well. I had believed my family was divided evenly between father'ss side = Irish and mother's side = German and am starting to see it doesn't necesssarily work that way.

Names are a tricky thing. Some surnames can arise in more than one location and be used by unrelated groups, although that's unlikely with a name like yours. And some people changed their surname to avoid persecution for their family's involvement in some rebellion. Or a person could be adopted or be the result of an extramarital affair. There are all kinds of ways an I1 person could appear in what appears to be a fairly solidly R1b family group.

The epicanthic eye fold is fairly common among Scots and Irish, and it's also common for someone with some blonde haired ancestors and some dark and/or red haired ancestors to have hair that's really blond in childhood but which becomes darker with time. I have both of those features. And while many Irish have dark hair and dark eyes, red hair and blue eyes are also common. Nothing about your description of yourself suggests you aren't of Irish ancestry but they are a mixture of various northern European groups.

Elian
24-03-15, 01:54
That all makes perfect sense Aberdeen. I had forgot to mention that within the autosomal results from 23andMe, my percentages were highest in Scandinavian but French and German were also 2 mentioned in the mix though at a much lower %. I had expected German to be much higher since on my mother's side they are all either Scandinavian or German. But, there again, my uncle whose last name is as German as you can get, came out to be R1a which, correct me if I am wrong, is not generally seen as a 'German" haplogroup. I also have no known French relatives at least not that we know of as far as our family line details are known(back to late 1800s). I do know we have blood relations on my mother's side who came to the States from Denmark in the late 1800s. I know specifically we are discussing the Ydna, not mtdna. I am not sure I understand it all yet. My hunch is that my I1 will show subclades consistent with others in the British Isles who also have I1 but we shall see. It's all very fascinating stuff and in the end, not a big deal really that my ydna did not end up being what I had thought it would be for so long. Just wish FTDNA would get my results back. Going on 4 months since I first got the kit back to them and they've changed my due date 3 times already with the last due date now being listed as 3/25/15-4/08/15

Elian
29-03-15, 05:45
I found and have been reading a very old Irish book called Cogad Gáedel re Gallaib(The War of the Gaedhil with the Gaill) or "War of the Irish Against the Foreigners"
My family name, Molloy is mentioned in the book. A Molloy was apparently an Irish chieftain but he allied himself to the Norsemen against Brian Boru, his older brother Mathgamhain and the other allied Irish chieftains. After finding out that I am I1-L813+ ,this certainly is interesting when coupled to my Irish surname. Here is a short snippet along with a footnote:


"Some of the chieftains who resisted this movement, and declared themselves in favour of the Dal-Cais, were put to death' by Ivar and his followers (chap. 1.) ; but Maolmuadh[pron. Molloy], son of Bran, king of Desmond, and Donnabhan [pron. Donovan], son of Cathal, king of Ui Cairbhri, were amongst the most zealous enemies of Mathgamhain, and united their forces to those of Ivar. They were actuated, our author adds, not so much by any favour to the cause of the foreigners as by hatred and jealousy towards the Dal-Cais."


Footnote:
King of Desmumhain. Ri Muman,
B., " king of Munster," a mistake.
Maolmuad,, or Molloy, son of Bran, was
king or lord of Desmumhain, (south
Munster, now Desmond).

I also found a wikipedia article on Ivar of Limerick wherein the Molloy name is mentioned in the old language "Máel Muad" or
Maolmuadh -Molloy

"What is peculiar about this passage is the extent of cooperation between the Gaelic kings. Here the sworn rivals Mathgamain and Máel Muad (the son of Bran) are actually found working together, the only known occasion in their careers. They are joined by one Faelán of uncertain identity, whose mention may either refer to a king of the Déisi Muman who actually died in 966,[13] and who the Cogad alleges Ivar actually killed,[14] or to an abbot of Emly later mentioned dying in 980.[15] Notably Emly was attacked by Ivar or his relations in 968 not long after the Norse loss in the Battle of Sulcoit in 967,[16] and possibly in retaliation for the Dál gCais plundering of Limerick.[17]"

Eochaidh
29-03-15, 14:30
The I1 Haplogroup is, as has been noted, not common in Ireland, but it is believed to be very old there.

The Trinity College Dublin study of 2006, which discovered M222, also has I1 results. They list the HG as IxI1b2, so I am just assuming that this is still I1 as so many names have changed. They are mostly among the surnames Mcguinness (large sample) and Mccartan (small sample). The rates are 75% and 50% respectively.

Why they are believed to be quite old is as follows. These two names are associated with one of the very old peoples of Ireland. They were always based in western County Down and were not displaced by the Normans, who took eastern County Down. There are extensive records of the surnames beginning around 1000 AD, but there are reliable genealogies going back to 500 AD, and histories going back further.

The tribal name was Dál nAraide, sometimes called Cruithin, which is the Q-Celtic version of the P-Celtic Pretani (British). It is believed that these people predated the M222 people. There are still two Baronies in eastern Down named for one of their sub-branches and called Iveagh.

I am not suggesting that you are related to these people, only that I1 has been in Ireland for a very long time.

Elian
29-03-15, 18:13
I had wondered about that possibility myself except for the fact that the largest portion of my matches are in Norway. The ones in Ireland are rather conspicuously located in areas with heavy Viking presence and the same with Scotland and England, Iceland, Isle of Man, Shetland, Normandy, Brittany, Denmark, Sweden etc.

RobertColumbia
20-07-15, 17:16
I had wondered about that possibility myself except for the fact that the largest portion of my matches are in Norway. The ones in Ireland are rather conspicuously located in areas with heavy Viking presence and the same with Scotland and England, Iceland, Isle of Man, Shetland, Normandy, Brittany, Denmark, Sweden etc.

This could indicate a Viking origin as more likely. Maybe one of your ancestors was a busty tavern wench who had an unfortunate incident of poor judgment with a Viking in the port of Belfast.

Tomenable
06-08-15, 02:35
^ As for statistical correlation of surnames and Y-DNA.

It likely works for a large sample, but it doesn't really work on an individual level.

Unfortunately women (yes, women again! :laughing:) are causing many of so-called "non-paternity events":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-paternity_event#Rates_of_non-paternity

In each generation there is a few percent chance for a "non-paternity event"...

Now calculate the chance for at least 1 non-paternity event in last ~40 generations (= ~1000 years).

The principle of the inherent superiority of mtDNA over Y-DNA says:

"Mater semper certa est. Pater semper incertus est" !!! :laughing:

Elian
17-08-15, 02:18
I think you summarized things pretty well here, so there's probably not a lot more we can add until we see your results and determine what type of I1 you look like. I1 definitely has a Germanic rather than Celtic affinity, but it's not quite an exclusive relationship, and I1 hasn't always had the Germanic affinity if you go back far enough in human history. So who knows, you could be a Celtic outlier or something, keep us updated.



I gave Ken Nordtvedt access to my results on FTDNA website and after reviewing them, this was his response: "Your haplotype is of the UN (ultranorse) clade, L813+. This clade is found primarily in Norway. I’m pretty sure that’s where its founder lived."

These are my actual STR results. I am still a little fuzzy on what this all means or what Ken Nordtvedt 'haplotype' means specifically. Is there any way one can view STRs etc in order to differentiate between an older, ealrier I1 already present in Ireland and I1 that got there later from Vikings or Normans or ? Having an I1 that was actually very old would explain the seeming disconnect between my Irish surname and my ydna. On another note, I have been told by a man who belongs to Molloy Family DNA project in Ireland that Molloy is not strictly Irish because there is/are very old Scottish families with the same surname. Thus far I have not been able to verify that in any searches I have done on the net but I do have matches in Hebrides, Caithness, Skye, Shetland, Isle of Man, though none from Orkney
.
Hopefully someone can further explain these numbers as relates to Ken Nordtvedt's analysis of them. On the FTDNA page where these numbers are at, it also does not explain in any way what the red asterix marks mean so that is another thing I would like to know.



PANEL 1 (1-12)



Marker
DYS393
DYS390
DYS19**
DYS391
DYS385
DYS426
DYS388
DYS439
DYS389I
DYS392
DYS389II***


Value
13
23
14
10
14-15
11
14
11
12
11
28




PANEL 2 (13-25)



Marker
DYS458
DYS459
DYS455
DYS454
DYS447
DYS437
DYS448
DYS449
DYS464


Value
15
8-9
8
11
23
16
20
29
11-14-14-16




PANEL 3 (26-37)



Marker
DYS460
Y-GATA-H4
YCAII
DYS456
DYS607
DYS576
DYS570
CDY
DYS442
DYS438


Value
10
10
19-21
14
14
18
20
37-38
12
9




PANEL 4 (38-47)



Marker
DYS531
DYS578
DYF395S1
DYS590
DYS537
DYS641
DYS472
DYF406S1
DYS511


Value
11
8
15-15
8
11
10
8
9
10




PANEL 4 (48-60)



Marker
DYS425
DYS413
DYS557
DYS594
DYS436
DYS490
DYS534
DYS450
DYS444
DYS481
DYS520
DYS446


Value
12
22-24
15
10
12
12
16
8
13
25
20
13




PANEL 4 (61-67)



Marker
DYS617
DYS568
DYS487
DYS572
DYS640
DYS492
DYS565


Value
13
11
12
11
11
12
11

truth_seeker
02-04-16, 06:47
This is brand new to me. Had 3 tests run by Ancestrybydna before I learned they were sketchy perhaps. Anyway the Y-dna Haplogroup came back I1, which precisely matches my family tree information that I compiled several years ago. My paternal Gr. grandparents were immigrants from Sweden.

So the company got the correct answer from my test. Next comes the maternal and Origins. Both of hose should reflect heavy British Isles, but I know that can a mixed bag, so to speak..

ChristieMoore33
08-04-16, 17:30
I'm late to the party here but the men in my family are all I-M253 and our last name is Moore. We have Irish and Ulster Scot heritage in our family. I wonder if this subclade has anything to do with the newly found remains in Northern Ireland that date older than originally thought in Irish history and could put a whole new spin on Irish history/Celt's history?

ChristieMoore33
08-04-16, 17:35
Here are two of my guys:
They are a couple generations off of brothers. We all share a same GGG Grandfather.



13
22
14
10
13-14
11
14
11
12
11
29
15
8-9
8
11
23
16
20
28
12-14-15-16
11
10
19-21
14
13
16
21
34-38
12
10
11
8
15-15
8
11
10
8
9
9
12
23-25
16
11
12
12
15
8
14
27
20
13
13
11
13
11
11
12
11




13
22
14
10
13-14
11
14
11
12
11
29
15
8-9
8
11
23
17
20
28
12-14-15-16
11
10
19-21
14
13
16
21
34-37
12
10
11
8
15-15
8
11
10
8
9
9
12
23-25
16
11
12
12
15
8
14
27
20
13
13
11
13
11
11
12
11
34
12
8
16
12
23
27
19
10
12
12
13
11
9
11
11
10
12
12
31
11
13
21
16
11
10
23
15
17
11
24
17
12
16
25
12
22
18
12
14
18
9
12
12

Angela
09-04-16, 20:14
I'm late to the party here but the men in my family are all I-M253 and our last name is Moore. We have Irish and Ulster Scot heritage in our family. I wonder if this subclade has anything to do with the newly found remains in Northern Ireland that date older than originally thought in Irish history and could put a whole new spin on Irish history/Celt's history?

Could you be a little more specific about these newly found remains?

ThirdTerm
09-04-16, 22:04
It was previously believed that the Celts invaded Ireland somewhere between 1,000 BC and 500 BC but the discovery of the Bronze Age Celtic remains in Northern Ireland pushed back the date of their arrival to 4,000 years ago. Three Bronze Age individuals from Rathlin Island belonged to Haplogroup R1b and a Neolithic woman had black hair and brown eyes (Cassidy et al. 2015).



The Neolithic and Bronze Age transitions were profound cultural shifts catalyzed in parts of Europe by migrations, first of early farmers from the Near East and then Bronze Age herders from the Pontic Steppe. However, a decades-long, unresolved controversy is whether population change or cultural adoption occurred at the Atlantic edge, within the British Isles. We address this issue by using the first whole genome data from prehistoric Irish individuals. A Neolithic woman (3343–3020 cal BC) from a megalithic burial (10.3× coverage) possessed a genome of predominantly Near Eastern origin. She had some hunter–gatherer ancestry but belonged to a population of large effective size, suggesting a substantial influx of early farmers to the island. Three Bronze Age individuals from Rathlin Island (2026–1534 cal BC), including one high coverage (10.5×) genome, showed substantial Steppe genetic heritage indicating that the European population upheavals of the third millennium manifested all of the way from southern Siberia to the western ocean. This turnover invites the possibility of accompanying introduction of Indo-European, perhaps early Celtic, language. Irish Bronze Age haplotypic similarity is strongest within modern Irish, Scottish, and Welsh populations, and several important genetic variants that today show maximal or very high frequencies in Ireland appear at this horizon. These include those coding for lactase persistence, blue eye color, Y chromosome R1b haplotypes, and the hemochromatosis C282Y allele; to our knowledge, the first detection of a known Mendelian disease variant in prehistory. These findings together suggest the establishment of central attributes of the Irish genome 4,000 y ago.


The presence of Scandinavian haplogroups I1 and I2 in Ireland is closely associated with Irish history. Haplogroup frequencies in Ireland are: I1 6%, I2a 1%, I2b 5%, R1a 2.5%, R1b 81%, J1 1%, G2a 1% and E1b1b 2%. The Irish people predominantly belong to R1b, which is also common in the Iberian peninsula. The Celts were originally the R1b people but Scandinavian haplogroups were introduced by Norse migrations during the 9th and 10th centuries. The Irish people living in urban and coastal areas such as Dublin, marked red in the historical map, where Norse settlements were established, have significant Norse admixture (I1, I2a, I2b).



I2b2 is a very rare subclade of Haplogroup I and was only discovered in May 2005. It is purely European. There is still much to discover about it, but its story is being advanced by gifted hobbyists such as Hans de Beule who has published a number of articles on the wanderings of I2b2 people. Haplogroup I was one of the earliest groups to settle on the continent around 40,000 years ago. Today I2b2 is thinly spread over Europe but its frequency is highest in the Upper Rhine region of Germany, making it a likely point of origin around 6-7,000 years ago. Given its subsequent spread across Europe over the millenia, it is entirely possible that I2b2 people moved northwards into Denmark and possibly southern Norway to eventually become Vikings. Certainly, there were complex movements of peoples all over the Continent over this period, complicating the DNA picture considerably.
7673
Scandinavian communities in northern England and Ireland merged with the local populations, as evidenced by the modern connection between Danish and German I2b2 samples with northern English and Irish ones, suggesting that some I2b2s mingled with north German and Scandinavian populations and migrated to England and Ireland as Vikings. The impact on culture and language of this Anglo-Scandinavian assimilation in northern England is still felt to this day, particularly in the distinctive dialects of English spoken in the north, which can still be unintelligible to people from the south!
7674
This map, courtesy of Worldnames showing the modern distribution of people with the surname Rimmer in northwest Europe supports this. It shows an unusually high concentration in west Lancashire, as well as a moderate frequency in Denmark (and a very low frequency in Norway and Sweden). A prehistoric origin, or an Anglo-Saxon origin, would explain a more uniform frequency of I2b2s from the continent across the length and breadth of England, but does less to explain the later presence of a high concentration of people with a common surname in such a localised area.

ChristieMoore33
11-05-16, 22:55
Thanks for that previous post! Very interesting!!

ChristieMoore33
11-05-16, 22:56
Could you be a little more specific about these newly found remains?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/03/17/a-mans-discovery-of-bones-under-his-pub-could-forever-change-what-we-know-about-the-irish/