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Learning_Genetics
30-03-15, 14:35
I recently came upon some information that there is a subclade of R1b which is shared by both many people in the British Isles (especially in the Scottish lowlands) and Jews in Eastern Europe.

How was it possible for both Jews and British people to be related in this way?

Is it likely that British people with this R1b L-21 are descendents of Jews who settled there?

Or is there some other explanation?

John Doe
30-03-15, 15:09
I recently came upon some information that there is a subclade of R1b which is shared by both many people in the British Isles (especially in the Scottish lowlands) and Jews in Eastern Europe.

How was it possible for both Jews and British people to be related in this way?

Is it likely that British people with this R1b L-21 are descendents of Jews who settled there?

Or is there some other explanation?

There's a book called "When Scotland was Jewish", but it speaks of Jewish settlement in the highlands, rather than the lowlands, and I'm not sure how credible it is, but it's true that the expulsion of Jews from England in 1290 didn't affect Scottish Jews. Scotland is one of the few countries in Europe to never expel its Jewish population even once.

Maleth
30-03-15, 15:18
I recently came upon some information that there is a subclade of R1b which is shared by both many people in the British Isles (especially in the Scottish lowlands) and Jews in Eastern Europe.

How was it possible for both Jews and British people to be related in this way?

Is it likely that British people with this R1b L-21 are descendents of Jews who settled there?

Or is there some other explanation?

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-L21.gif

Hello and Welcome Learning Genetics. This is the R-L21 map according to Eupedia. According to this map its more probable to be the other way round.

Learning_Genetics
30-03-15, 15:37
There's a book called "When Scotland was Jewish", but it speaks of Jewish settlement in the highlands, rather than the lowlands, and I'm not sure how credible it is, but it's true that the expulsion of Jews from England in 1290 didn't affect Scottish Jews. Scotland is one of the few countries in Europe to never expel its Jewish population even once.

It was that book which sparked my interest in the subject.

While Scotland never expelled its Jewish population, the question remains as to how many Jews were actually there.

It would be worth finding this out.




Hello and Welcome Learning Genetics. This is the R-L21 map according to Eupedia. According to this map its more probable to be the other way round.

Thank you, Maleth.

Would it have somehow been possible that non-Jews somehow migrated from the British Isles to Eastern Europe and then ended up Jewish?

Angela
30-03-15, 15:51
To the best of my recollection, there was a theory that the L21 was most likely absorbed by the Jewish community in the Rhineland and then brought to eastern Europe when Jews moved there en mass when the Polish king granted them protection.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Ashkenazim.html

Hopefully, someone with more recent data may read your post and contribute.

Maleth
30-03-15, 17:09
Thank you, Maleth.

Would it have somehow been possible that non-Jews somehow migrated from the British Isles to Eastern Europe and then ended up Jewish?

Keep in mind that R L21 will not be solely British although Both Britian, Brittany in France especially Ireland would have the highest concentrations. IMO when Jews traveled to Europe they did mix with the Natives and there has also been (male) conversions (not just Male Jews marrying European women) creating the Gene pool we see today. Then they moved around as history tells us, sometimes for economic reasons and often because of persecution.

This would have created a different gene pool to the more aboriginal (so to speak) Jews that had remained in the Middle east proper who would have had much less admixture with the more common haplogroups found on the European continent. Its more or less what Angela is stating I guess. I am sure there are people who are more informed about the subject as like yourself I am still 'Learning Genetics' :)

you might find this interesting:-

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21?iframe=yresults

windows are a little slow to open from one to the other.

Aberdeen
30-03-15, 20:31
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-L21.gif

Hello and Welcome Learning Genetics. This is the R-L21 map according to Eupedia. According to this map its more probable to be the other way round.

That map seems to suggest that R-L21 formed as a distinct subclade in what is now Britain and Ireland and spread south and east from there. Although I know most people on this forum will take the view that the expansion happened in the opposite direction. R-L21 formed about 4700 years ago, about 300 years after the formation of its predecessor subclade R-P312, according to this website.
www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/ (http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/)

R1b among Yamnaya for that same general time period are P297, L23 or Z2103. No P312 or downstream subclades were found there.

The problem is that we have no Y DNA samples from Britain or Ireland from the time period when L21 formed, so we have no way of knowing whether it was or wasn't in Britain or Ireland back then.

Power77
02-04-15, 23:27
R1b-L21 among Jews is most likely due to paternal admixture from either Romans or Celto-Germanics during either Late Antiquity or the Middle Ages. Yes, paternal non-Jewish admixture was relatively rare, but it certainly did happen especially if we consider the fact that Jews faced many pogroms since (at least) the early Middle Ages in Europe, and Jewish women were often raped during such events. It is therefore likely that these Jewish women gave birth to illegitimate offspring after such pogrom events, and we can therefore safely say that (sometimes) these illegitimate individuals would have been raised as Jews. They would eventually blend into the general Jewish population and bring some "new" genetics (and therefore uniparental lineages) to it ( hence the findings of hg R1b-L21 and Slavic subclades of hg R1a among modern Jews).

Sloven-Vened
23-09-16, 11:40
Jews are not Semites. Semites have dark skin and black hair. Jews are Khazars. Khazars are Germanic nation. Language of Khazars is germanic Yiddish language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiddish
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews#The_Khazar_hypothesis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_genetics_of_Jews
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar_hypothesis_of_Ashkenazi_ancestry