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bicicleur
30-03-15, 17:47
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-tree.gif

R1b-V88 entered Africa from Anatolia with cattle, probably some 8000 years ago

2154 BC the Gutians herders invaded Mesopotamia from the mountains in the north
they were light-skinned herders and possibly R1b-descendants
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_people

R1b1-P25 was found among herders in Els Trocs in the Spanish Pyrennées, 5100 BC , see
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/02/10/013433

David Anthony participated in above mentioned study.
In his book, the wheel the horse and language http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8488.html
he claims the Proto-Indo-Europeans (R1a and R1b-P297 or M269) on the Pontic steppe got their cattle from the Cucuteni-Triplye people, east of the Carpaths (present-day Moldavia), and cattle never crossed the Caucasus.
What is your opinion?
Did Proto-Indo-European R1b cross the Caucasus with or without cattle?

Rethel
30-03-15, 19:38
2154 BC the Gutians herders invaded Mesopotamia from the mountains in the north
they were light-skinned herders and possibly R1b-descendants

In the north there were yet Subartu people.
And in later times Kassites.


he claims the Proto-Indo-Europeans (R1a and R1b-P297 or M269) on the Pontic steppe got their cattle from the Cucuteni-Triplye people, east of the Carpaths (present-day Moldavia), and cattle never crossed the Caucasus.
What is your opinion?
Did Proto-Indo-European R1b cross the Caucasus with or without cattle?

I think, that this question could be answer only if someone examine cows DNA from that time... :rolleyes2:

matbir
30-03-15, 20:53
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-tree.gif

R1b-V88 entered Africa from Anatolia with cattle, probably some 8000 years ago

2154 BC the Gutians herders invaded Mesopotamia from the mountains in the north
they were light-skinned herders and possibly R1b-descendants
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_people

R1b1-P25 was found among herders in Els Trocs in the Spanish Pyrennées, 5100 BC , see
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/02/10/013433

David Anthony participated in above mentioned study.
In his book, the wheel the horse and language http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8488.html
he claims the Proto-Indo-Europeans (R1a and R1b-P297 or M269) on the Pontic steppe got their cattle from the Cucuteni-Triplye people, east of the Carpaths (present-day Moldavia), and cattle never crossed the Caucasus.
What is your opinion?
Did Proto-Indo-European R1b cross the Caucasus with or without cattle?
Due to academic surveys it has never happened. We have discussed the newest survey on R1b "Different waves and directions of Neolithic migrations in the Armenian Highland (http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/5/1/15)" here on Eupedia (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30667-armenian-paper-on-R1-J2-and-G2). It confirmed previous conclusions, that R1b migrated to Europe through Bosphorus from Anatolia and denied southern Caucasian origin of European R1b. Even Ancient DNA revealed no sign of western European R1b in Yamna culture, instead there showed the most common in eastern Europe clade R1b-Z2105.
So, there is scientific evidence that R1b didn't cross Caucasus.

Alan
30-03-15, 21:09
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-tree.gif

R1b-V88 entered Africa from Anatolia with cattle, probably some 8000 years ago

2154 BC the Gutians herders invaded Mesopotamia from the mountains in the north
they were light-skinned herders and possibly R1b-descendants
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_people

R1b1-P25 was found among herders in Els Trocs in the Spanish Pyrennées, 5100 BC , see
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/02/10/013433

David Anthony participated in above mentioned study.
In his book, the wheel the horse and language http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8488.html
he claims the Proto-Indo-Europeans (R1a and R1b-P297 or M269) on the Pontic steppe got their cattle from the Cucuteni-Triplye people, east of the Carpaths (present-day Moldavia), and cattle never crossed the Caucasus.
What is your opinion?
Did Proto-Indo-European R1b cross the Caucasus with or without cattle?

Map needs to be updated. Nothing above l23 found in the Steppes. We know that now.

So no P297 or m269.

Alan
30-03-15, 21:16
In the north there were yet Subartu people.
And in later times Kassites.



I think, that this question could be answer only if someone examine cows DNA from that time... :rolleyes2:

According to historic sources, Subarians, Kassites and Gutians were related people.

Subarians are at least as mysterious as the Gutians. Nothing known about their language or anything else, because of the lack of material. But I suspect some kind of very archaic Indo European tongue.

For the Subarians at least, it seems they haven't died out entirely. There is a Kurdish tribe which is called "Zubari" (Z in Kurdish alphabet is pronounced as S) and they live exactly in the same region as the Subarians.

Alan
30-03-15, 21:21
Due to academic surveys it has never happened. We have discussed the newest survey on R1b "Different waves and directions of Neolithic migrations in the Armenian Highland (http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/5/1/15)" here on Eupedia (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30667-armenian-paper-on-R1-J2-and-G2). It confirmed previous conclusions, that R1b migrated to Europe through Bosphorus from Anatolia and denied southern Caucasian origin of European R1b. Even Ancient DNA revealed no sign of western European R1b in Yamna culture, instead there showed the most common in eastern Europe clade R1b-Z2105.
So, there is scientific evidence that R1b didn't cross Caucasus.

Z2105 is a specific West Asian_Balkan lineage. Since when has this become an Eastern European lineage. We are talking here about R1b in general. You probably didn't realize that, anything upstream Z2105 was found in Western Asia and surely not in Eastern Europe.

Rethel
30-03-15, 21:59
But I suspect some kind of very archaic Indo European tongue.

I have that suspition too... :rolleyes2:


For the Subarians at least, they seem to haven't died out entirely. There is a Kurdish tribe which is called "Zubari" (Z in Kurdish alphabet is pronounced as S) and they live exactly in the same region as the Subarians.

This is possible, but there is another possibility.
In sumerian Assyria was called Subartu, and that name were used also for north direction.
It is possible and quite reasonable to assume, that Subartu people (maybe partialy) were
mix with Assyrians, and they lost their indentity, language and phisical apperience.

Modern Assyrians are of course not representative for ancient Assyrians,
but between 1/4 and 1/3 of samples from that people are R1. It would
be a very interresting investigate DNA of Assyrian kings... who knows
who they were...? :rolleyes2:

7177

Sile
30-03-15, 22:08
Due to academic surveys it has never happened. We have discussed the newest survey on R1b "Different waves and directions of Neolithic migrations in the Armenian Highland (http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/5/1/15)" here on Eupedia (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30667-armenian-paper-on-R1-J2-and-G2). It confirmed previous conclusions, that R1b migrated to Europe through Bosphorus from Anatolia and denied southern Caucasian origin of European R1b. Even Ancient DNA revealed no sign of western European R1b in Yamna culture, instead there showed the most common in eastern Europe clade R1b-Z2105.
So, there is scientific evidence that R1b didn't cross Caucasus.

then that paper is wrong , because they found seven R1b in north caucasus and beyond recently.

besides , there are 2 main river valleys which run diagonally from caspian sea to black sea...one in south caucasus and other in north caucasus ( terek river) ...........clearly people followed valley to live and migrate

Sile
30-03-15, 22:12
I have that suspition too... :rolleyes2:



This is possible, but there is another possibility.
In sumerian Assyria was called Subartu, and that name were used also for north direction.
It is possible and quite reasonable to assume, that Subartu people (maybe partialy) were
mix with Assyrians, and they lost their indentity, language and phisical apperience.

Modern Assyrians are of course not representative for ancient Assyrians,
but between 1/4 and 1/3 of samples from that people are R1. It would
be a very interresting investigate DNA of Assyrian kings... who knows
who they were...? :rolleyes2:

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/s-Xp2PtruOg/maxresdefault.jpg

haplo T is linked with haplo L ........forming LT-P326..............without this SNP, one cannot be either L or T . This marker is between 56000 to 49000 years old.
This P326 origins are stated by some as the indus valley ( pakistan/india) and others by north india/afghanistan

there is no JT link that I know of


EDIT: it was not indus valley , it was the SIND VALLEY in Kasmir

Rethel
30-03-15, 22:44
there is no JT link that I know of

Someone who made this probably pressed wrong button.:rolleyes2:

matbir
30-03-15, 22:48
Z2105 is a specific West Asian_Balkan lineage. Since when has this become an Eastern European lineage. We are talking here about R1b in general. You probably didn't realize that, anything below Z2105 was found in Western Asia and surely not in Eastern Europe.
Here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30881-Modern-distribution-of-R1b-Z2103) you can find discussion about Z2105 in eastern Europe. Link to paper (page 111) (http://ibg.anrb.ru/disovet/zashita/2015/02Trofimova/2015_02_TrofimovaDiser.pdf) - in Volga-Ural region 462 males were tested, 61 of them was R1b and 43 was Z2105 positive. It makes 70% of R1b found in the region.


then that paper is wrong , because they found seven R1b in north caucasus and beyond recently.

besides , there are 2 main river valleys which run diagonally from caspian sea to black sea...one in south caucasus and other in north caucasus ( terek river) ...........clearly people followed valley to live and migrate Could you provide me with this article? I am very interested in knowing the case. BTW for last five years there wasn't any paper really contradicting findings of Natalie Myres from 2010, and the paper I provided only confirms previous statements.

Alan
31-03-15, 00:11
I have that suspition too... :rolleyes2:


Why the rolling eyes ?



This is possible, but there is another possibility.
In sumerian Assyria was called Subartu, and that name were used also for north direction.
It is possible and quite reasonable to assume, that Subartu people (maybe partialy) were
mix with Assyrians, and they lost their indentity, language and phisical apperience.

During Sumeria something called "Assyria" didn't exist. Akkadians did, but they came directly from Levant (unlikely source for R1*) and settled in Central, not North Mesopotamia. And I have never heard Sumerians calle Akkadians "Subarians". So therefore Assyrians were never called Subarians. Where do you get your informations from ?



Modern Assyrians are of course not representative for ancient Assyrians,
but between 1/4 and 1/3 of samples from that people are R1. It would
be a very interresting investigate DNA of Assyrian kings... who knows
who they were...? :rolleyes2:

7177

90% of R1* among Assyrians is z2105. Means bottleneck effect. You know what that is?

Assyrian King Sargon called himself "Conquerer of Gutians and Subarians". And now I let you imagine the rest.

Alan
31-03-15, 00:18
Here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30881-Modern-distribution-of-R1b-Z2103) you can find discussion about Z2105 in eastern Europe. Link to paper (page 111) (http://ibg.anrb.ru/disovet/zashita/2015/02Trofimova/2015_02_TrofimovaDiser.pdf) - in Volga-Ural region 462 males were tested, 61 of them was R1b and 43 was Z2105 positive. It makes 70% of R1b found in the region.


The paper says the Samara Indo Europeans turned out as R1b. Those Indo Europeans also had West Asian DNA. This subclade is nowadays dominant in Balkan and West Asia. We don't have any West Asian ancient samples. What makes you think, that if we found this lineage in modern West Asians, it wouldn't be found in ancient West Asians too?

And how does this prove, that R1b didn't cross the Caucasus. Above you claimed R1b couldn't have crossed from the Caucasus into Yamna because R1b z2105 was found in ancient Steppe samples (Not even Eastern European per se).

There are a dozen R1b lineages upstream to z2105 which are not found in Eastern Europe,

For the case you missed it here is my comment again.


We are talking here about R1b in general. You probably didn't realize that, anything upstream Z2105 was found in Western Asia and surely not in Eastern Europe.

Rethel
31-03-15, 00:37
Why the rolling eyes ? You have some issues with them? You should contact a doctor.

What??!! :petrified:
Smile is forbidden?

You should find a doctor for yourself.


During Sumeria something called "Assyria" didn't exist. So therefore Assyrians were never called Subarians. Where do you get your informations from ? Fantasy channel?

I didn't write about Sumer (or his times), but about sumerian (language) who was using long after Sumer, having in mind some ancient texts.

I don't remember where is everything written what I had read in my life,
maybe you can remember whole refreces of your life, but I dont. If you
remember such things, you are more genius than Einstein probably.

But for example, here: http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subartu

At the end you can read, that in first millenium BC in Babilonian text Subartu was a synonym of Assyria.
Refrence number forth talking about this, that in sumerian language subar it was someone who lived in the north.
In 14th line of text you have information, that Subartu was a synonym of the north.


90% of R1* among "Assyrians" is z2105. Means bottleneck effect. You know what that is? Assyrian King Sargon called himself "Conquerer of Gutians and Subarians". And now I let you imagine the rest.

Did you read what I wrote? Probably not, because you was reading in your imagination...

I quote: Modern Assyrians are of course not representative for ancient Assyrians,


A simple request. Please reply to my comments if you actually have the basic knowledge of history, genetics and linguistics.

You have probably advanced knoledge about everything... http://emotikona.pl/emotikony/pic/0recourse.gif

Alan
31-03-15, 00:49
What??!! :petrified:
Smile is forbidden?


That's not a smile. Are you really that... new, to not know the difference between rolling eyes and a smile?
If you meant it as a smile, than I am sorry, because rolling eyes usualy implies something different.



I didn't write aboyt Sumer times, but about sumerian (language) who was using long after Sumer, having in mind some ancient texts.

How could Sumerians or the "Sumerian language" speak about people who they didn't know because these people didn't existed yet. :laughing:

I don't remember where is everything written what I had read in my life,
maybe you can remember whole refreces of your life, but I dont. If you
remember such things, you are more genius than Einstein probably.

Look I will tell you it straight out. When Sumerians still existed Assyrians didn't existed so, Assyrians=/= Subarians. Since Assyrians Kings gave themselves the title conquerers of "Gutians and Subartu". So if you saw or red it somewhere it must have been false information.


But for example, here: http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subartu

At the end you can read, that in first millenium BC in Babilonian text Subartu was a synonym of Assyria.
Refrence number forth talking about this, that in sumerian language subar it was someone who lived in the north.
In 14th line of text you have information about that, that Subartu that was synonym of north.

Thats the Polish Wikipedia and I can't understand a word. Even if I did, I wouldn't take anything written in Wikipedia as granted. But again, no sane scientist would come to the idea to claim Subarians as Assyrians. The only reason why "Assyria" might have become synonym for Subartu is because Assyrians conquered it. Turkey is a synonym for Anatolia are ancient and even modern Anatolians equivalent to Turks?


Look I will not waste more time here, because honestly I am tired explaining people the basics all over again.

Rethel
31-03-15, 01:03
That's not a smile. Are you really that... new, to not know the difference between rolling eyes and a smile?
If you meant it as a smile, than I am sorry, because rolling eyes usualy implies something different.

This looks more like smile, than roll eyes.
Good to know.


How could Sumerians or the "Sumerian language" speak about people who they didn't know because these people didn't existed yet. :laughing:
Look I will tell you it straight out. When Sumerians still existed Assyrians didn't existed so, Assyrians=/= Subarians. Since Assyrians Kings gave themselves the title conquerers of "Gutians and Subartu". So if you saw or red it somewhere it must have been false information.
Thats the Polish Wikipedia and I can't understand a word. Even if I did, I wouldn't take anything written in Wikipedia as granted. But again, no sane scientist would come to the idea to claim Subarians as Assyrians. The only reason why "Assyria" might have become synonym for Subartu is because Assyrians conquered it. Turkey is a synonym for Anatolia are ancient and even modern Anatolians equivalent to Turks?
Look I will not waste more time here, because honestly I am tired explaining people the basics all over again.

I got you some example, where it is written, as you was asking.
I dont invent this on my own, and if some one write about such a thing probably he didnt invet this too.
You can ask someone to translate you, or use translator.
And the fourth refrence is about english book. You can check it if you wish to know.

Similar things you have here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subartu

Some scholars suggest that Subartu is an early name for Assyria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyria) proper on the Tigris and westward, although there are various other theories placing it sometimes a little farther to the east and/or north. Its precise location has not been identified. From the point of view of the Akkadian Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akkadian_Empire), Subartu marked the northern geographical horizon, just as Martu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorite), Elam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elam) and Sumer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer) marked "west", "east" and "south", respectively. - and even Sumerians were still alive at that time...

So, maybe you should teach your basics these authors...

Rethel
31-03-15, 01:09
When Sumerians still existed Assyrians didn't existed so, Assyrians=/= Subarians.


But again, no sane scientist would come to the idea to claim Subarians as Assyrians.

And you again are changing what I wrote.
I didn't write, that Assyrians = Subarians, but Subartu was use as a name/term for Assyria.
That is a BIG diffrence.

Sile
31-03-15, 01:11
Someone who made this probably pressed wrong button.:rolleyes2:

they meant I and J where once joined

Sile
31-03-15, 01:17
Here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30881-Modern-distribution-of-R1b-Z2103) you can find discussion about Z2105 in eastern Europe. Link to paper (page 111) (http://ibg.anrb.ru/disovet/zashita/2015/02Trofimova/2015_02_TrofimovaDiser.pdf) - in Volga-Ural region 462 males were tested, 61 of them was R1b and 43 was Z2105 positive. It makes 70% of R1b found in the region.

Could you provide me with this article? I am very interested in knowing the case. BTW for last five years there wasn't any paper really contradicting findings of Natalie Myres from 2010, and the paper I provided only confirms previous statements.

2013 paper

http://www.science.org.ge/moambe/6-2/153-161%20Pitskhelauri.pdf

Angela
31-03-15, 01:36
And you again are changing what I wrote.
I didn't write, that Assyrians = Subarians, but Subartu was use as a name/term for Assyria.
That is a BIG diffrence.

So let's say that Subartu was used as a term for Assyria. How is that material to whether R1b crossed the Caucasus with cattle?

matbir
01-04-15, 23:59
The paper says the Samara Indo Europeans turned out as R1b. Those Indo Europeans also had West Asian DNA. This subclade is nowadays dominant in Balkan and West Asia. We don't have any West Asian ancient samples. What makes you think, that if we found this lineage in modern West Asians, it wouldn't be found in ancient West Asians too?

And how does this prove, that R1b didn't cross the Caucasus. Above you claimed R1b couldn't have crossed from the Caucasus into Yamna because R1b z2105 was found in ancient Steppe samples (Not even Eastern European per se).

There are a dozen R1b lineages upstream to z2105 which are not found in Eastern Europe,

For the case you missed it here is my comment again.
1. Paper says that samples from Eastern Armenian Plateau are spread branch of R1b from European R1b, while in Western Armenian Plateau there are some clades that could be ancestral to European variety. Conclusion is that R1b went to Europe from Anatolia through Balkans.
2. I didn't question that Z2103 could have come from Anatolia. I just stated that this clade is popular among R1b in eastern Europe.
3. If R1b comes from Caucasus to eastern Europe and next westwards it is expected that R1b diversity was higher in Eastern European Plane then in it western part. But that is not the case.
4. Samara Region and Pontic steppe lies in eastern Europe.

2013 paper

http://www.science.org.ge/moambe/6-2/153-161%20Pitskhelauri.pdf
There is nothing about R1b. You didn't prove jour point. AFAIC there is no genetic prove that R1b crossed Caucasus, while we have some evidence coming from present populations (Myres et al, Busby et al) and ancient DNA that meet the expectations from Yamna culture.