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bicicleur
31-03-15, 08:40
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif

E-V13 is spread all over Europe
little is known how and when this happened
there are no deep subclades of E-V13 known
the best I could find is here : http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/
3 subclades are listed here each with a different expansion time : 4300, 3800 and 1850 years ago
because these subclades are very shallow, the expansion time of E-V13 is estimated at only 4300 years ago, which seems to be in contradiction of the 7000 years old cardial ware E-V13 DNA found in Catalunia : http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255.abstract
Ray Banks found a lot of new subclades of E-V13 : https://sites.google.com/site/compositeytree/e1b1b-1 look under E1b1b1a1b1a1 PF2211/V13 (6842263 G->A)
It seems like a lot of different expansions happened in different places and at different times.
I also found some distribution maps here : https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/e-3b/about/results and https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/e-v13/about/background
But these gave me little insight in the expansion of E-V13 or their subclades.
Any clues?

Melancon
31-03-15, 09:35
Hm. Well...not sure how to answer this one. But I would assume various Indo-European tribes picked up and assimilated Neolithic E-V13 men. Most likely pre-Greeks, pre-Germans, possibly pre-Italo-Celts in the early Bronze Age....plus the addition of Balkanic soldiers in the Roman Army later in the Roman Empire.....who became Romanized colonists; and may have spread it around Europe at an even higher frequency.

The E-V13 men most likely arrived from Anatolia or somewhere similar. I am guessing the E-V13 found in Mesolithic Catalonia is probably a coincidence....seems like it is not very abundant in the Iberian peninsula as it is in the East, given this map.


Also, this is a subclade of E1b1b...meaning it is a singular mutation of sorts...


Maybe whatever brought E-V13 across Europe, would be the same explanation for why the DF27 subclade of R1b, native to Iberian peninsula; is found as far as Sweden and Slovenia:

7179


Disclaimer: this hypothesis is very amateur; so I'm sorry if it isn't satisfactory enough.

Sile
31-03-15, 19:06
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif

E-V13 is spread all over Europe
little is known how and when this happened
there are no deep subclades of E-V13 known
the best I could find is here : http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/
3 subclades are listed here each with a different expansion time : 4300, 3800 and 1850 years ago
because these subclades are very shallow, the expansion time of E-V13 is estimated at only 4300 years ago, which seems to be in contradiction of the 7000 years old cardial ware E-V13 DNA found in Catalunia : http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255.abstract
Ray Banks found a lot of new subclades of E-V13 : https://sites.google.com/site/compositeytree/e1b1b-1 look under E1b1b1a1b1a1 PF2211/V13 (6842263 G->A)
It seems like a lot of different expansions happened in different places and at different times.
I also found some distribution maps here : https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/e-3b/about/results and https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/e-v13/about/background
But these gave me little insight in the expansion of E-V13 or their subclades.
Any clues?

IMO, ......E-V13 is a Bulgarian marker ( first mutation in Bulgaria ) , ...its "parent" originally coming from the Levant.

Yetos
31-03-15, 19:30
we haven't found any E-V13 older than Bronze age in Balkans, minor Asia, or Italy,

the oldest is in Iberia,
but East of Alps the oldest is found at Konya, modern Turkey 2000 BC 4 ky from now,

besides the almost none % among Gascons could also mean something,

Maleth
31-03-15, 19:35
Interesting results from the lineage analysis can be summarized as follows: (i) R-L23*, the eastern branch of haplogroup R-M269, is present in Eastern Bulgaria since the post glacial period; (ii) haplogroup E-V13, which probably originated in Western Asia, has a Mesolithic age in Bulgaria from where it expanded after the spread of farming marked by haplogroup G-P15, J-M410 representatives; (iii) haplogroup J-M241 probably reflects the Neolithic westward expansion of farmers from the earliest sites along the Black Sea.

​http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779

Sile
31-03-15, 19:48
Interesting results from the lineage analysis can be summarized as follows: (i) R-L23*, the eastern branch of haplogroup R-M269, is present in Eastern Bulgaria since the post glacial period; (ii) haplogroup E-V13, which probably originated in Western Asia, has a Mesolithic age in Bulgaria from where it expanded after the spread of farming marked by haplogroup G-P15, J-M410 representatives; (iii) haplogroup J-M241 probably reflects the Neolithic westward expansion of farmers from the earliest sites along the Black Sea.

​http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779

Thanks

The TMRCA for E-V13 is only between 4900-3800ybp ...........according to YFULL.com

its formation is 12500ybp


How important is TMRCA in regards to E-V13?

Maleth
31-03-15, 19:59
Thanks

The TMRCA for E-V13 is only between 4900-3800ybp ...........according to YFULL.com

its formation is 12500ybp

I would not like to open a new thread but maybe its appropriate to mention it here. If the Black Sea deluge really happen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis could it have some effect on the populations that were living around the then massive fresh water lake? The lake turning into salty water and growing fast should have left a considerable impact on those populations and also forced them to settle inland and closer to rivers.

Sile
31-03-15, 20:11
I would not like to open a new thread but maybe its appropriate to mention it here. If the Black Sea deluge really happen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis could it have some effect on the populations that were living around the then massive fresh water lake? The lake turning into salty water and growing fast should have left a considerable impact on those populations and also forced them to settle inland and closer to rivers.

was it salty with this change?

when the ice melted , it went in Aral sea and Caspian sea and this flowed to the black sea...............IIRC , Mr. Ballard who finds wrecks in the seas noted that the black sea provides good ancient samples because it has very little oxygen (similar to fresh water)

Maleth
31-03-15, 21:12
was it salty with this change?

when the ice melted , it went in Aral sea and Caspian sea and this flowed to the black sea...............IIRC , Mr. Ballard who finds wrecks in the seas noted that the black sea provides good ancient samples because it has very little oxygen (similar to fresh water)

I presume it was fresh water prior to the Mediterranean over flowing through the Bosphorus straights for a similar reason you stated with the discovery of ancient fresh water mollusks. I wonder what kind of impact this had on the existing populations which must have been abondant because of the Fresh water 7600 BP

Maleth
31-03-15, 21:22
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y0_t16w4Cg maybe its not as dramatic as the documentary shows, but there is an agreement it did happen

Rethel
31-03-15, 21:26
Title of this film is misleading and lying!:startled:

Maleth
31-03-15, 21:28
Title of this film is misleading and lying!:startled:

what about the content?

Angela
31-03-15, 22:27
Well, we have a marker of sorts for E-V13 in Europe.

Marie Lacan et al: Ancient Dna suggests the leading role played by men during the Neolithic dissemination.
http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255.full

"Y-chromosomal analyses permitted confirmation of the existence in Spain approximately 7,000 y ago of two haplogroups previously associated with the Neolithic transition: G2a and E1b1b1a1b.(It was E-V13.)"

bicicleur
01-04-15, 08:29
Well, we have a marker of sorts for E-V13 in Europe.

Marie Lacan et al: Ancient Dna suggests the leading role played by men during the Neolithic dissemination.
http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255.full

"Y-chromosomal analyses permitted confirmation of the existence in Spain approximately 7,000 y ago of two haplogroups previously associated with the Neolithic transition: G2a and E1b1b1a1b.(It was E-V13.)"

I'm starting to wonder : was this individual realy E-V13 or was he just ancestral to E-V13 (maybe E-L618 or even Z1919)? I don't find the details in the paper. Which SNP's were confirmed?
Also : has this branch died out or is there still offspring of this individual?

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/E1b1b-tree.gif

Maleth
01-04-15, 08:33
I'm starting to wonder : was this individual realy E-V13 or was he just ancestral to E-V13 (maybe E-L618 or even Z1919)? I don't find the details in the paper.
Also : has this branch died out or is there still offspring of this individual?

Apparently it is very closely related to the types found in the Balkans ;)

It was found in Avellaner cave in North Eastern Spain very close to the French border (Pyrenees)

Melancon
01-04-15, 10:50
In any case; the finding of E-V13 in Catalonia could be an erroneous report ... or it could possibly be ... that a small group of E-V13 men trekked all the way West in the late Mesolithic.


But, why would there be only a singular migration of E-V13 to the Iberian peninsula?

7,000 years ago would be the Mesolithic, right? So is this a founder? If so, why is this subclade more abundant in the East of Europe rather than Iberia? A migration Eastward?

Mars
01-04-15, 11:43
In the italian region, E-V13 appears more frequent in mountainous areas (Liguria, Abruzzo, Friuli Venezia Giulia). I think that this has to do with the indoeuropean expansion, and the progressive retreat of "post-neolithic" populations in "safer" areas (the indoeuropean takeover of Europe must have beeen very traumatic, IMHO). It's quite high in Apulia, too, but Apulia was invaded by Illyrians from the western Balkans if I'm not wrong, and E-V13 appears high in some balkanic areas (where its carriers found a refugee, in analogy with what probably happened in Italy?).

Sile
01-04-15, 11:52
In the italian region, E-V13 appears more frequent in mountainous areas (Liguria, Abruzzo, Friuli Venezia Giulia). I think that this has to do with the indoeuropean expansion, and the progressive retreat of "post-neolithic" populations in "safer" areas (the indoeuropean takeover of Europe must have beeen very traumatic, IMHO). It's quite high in Apulia, too, but Apulia was invaded by Illyrians from the western Balkans if I'm not wrong, and E-V13 appears high in some balkanic areas (where its carriers found a refugee, in analogy with what probably happened in Italy?).

invaded by illyrians or by the 14 tribes of Epirotes under Pyhrrus and his elephants!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhus_of_Epirus

I doubt it was the Illyrians, they did not arrive that far south in the balkans until 400BC

Mars
01-04-15, 12:04
^Well it's a possibility, I thought of the Messapii who lived in Apulia and belonged to an illyrian branch, if I remember well.

Sile
01-04-15, 12:07
^Well it's a possibility, I thought of the Messapii who lived in Apulia and belonged to an illyrian branch, if I remember well.

yes, me too, but it seems also the messapii language matched the Illiyrian japodes tribe in modern inland Croatia and also their migration path to apulia....................but I am unsure of this studies correctness

The Messapians or Messapii were an Indo-European people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans) that inhabited, in historical times, the south-eastern peninsula or "heel" of Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy) (Salento (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salento), modern Apulia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apulia)), known variously in ancient times as Calabria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calabria), Messapia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapia) and Iapygia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapyges). Their chief towns were Uzentum (modern Ugento (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugento)), Rudiae (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rudiae&action=edit&redlink=1) (modern Lecce), Brundisium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brundisium) (modern Brindisi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brindisi)) and Hyria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oria_%28town%29). They spoke the Messapian language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapian_language). They are often referred to as "the most southerly of the Iapygian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapyges) tribes".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapydes

Angela
01-04-15, 15:11
The designation of the find as "E1b1b1a1b" is a direct quote from the paper.

Going by this chart in Wiki, E1b1b1a1b* is E-V13. Does that clarify matters? It would definitely be good if they could reanalyze the sample and give a snp designation so we know the specific subclade, but unless this chart is wrong, isn't it definitely E-V13? Does anyone know if Ray Banks has a chart like this and if it differs?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68

This might still be a sub-clade of E-V13 that went extinct, of course, but we have so few ancient Neolithic samples, when you think of it, that there's no way of knowing yet, and certainly not if we don't get very refined subclade identification.

Angela
01-04-15, 17:49
In the italian region, E-V13 appears more frequent in mountainous areas (Liguria, Abruzzo, Friuli Venezia Giulia). I think that this has to do with the indoeuropean expansion, and the progressive retreat of "post-neolithic" populations in "safer" areas (the indoeuropean takeover of Europe must have beeen very traumatic, IMHO). It's quite high in Apulia, too, but Apulia was invaded by Illyrians from the western Balkans if I'm not wrong, and E-V13 appears high in some balkanic areas (where its carriers found a refugee, in analogy with what probably happened in Italy?).

There may be something to that, but I don't think we yet know how much of the original E-V13 Neolithic clade survived. The numbers that reached central and western Europe might have been small. We need refined subclade testing of any ancient E-V13 we find, and refined subclade testing of modern samples before we come to any conclusions, in my opinion. Unfortunately, there isn't enough money to go around, and most of the money is going to R1b research, and it's largely R1b people who are getting tested.

I think what may also or perhaps even more likely be the case is that a lot of the E-V13 is a Metal Ages spread from the Balcans and generally from the southeast. The expansion, anyway, seems to date from that time, and that's where E-V13 is most concentrated.

This is one map of E-V13 in Europe:
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif

That doesn't look like it tracks the mountains particularly. There's no particularly high presence down the stretch of the Apennines, for example, as there is for some G2a.

Here's the Wiki map of E-V68 the parent, for what it's worth:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/HgE1b1b1a2.png

It looks to me like a Neolithic entry that might have gotten very lucky in the Metal Ages and had an expansion. It might track a bit with this autosomal spread shown in Cavalli-Sforza, which in turn looks a bit like Greek colonization east, west, and north:

Particularly on the Wiki map of E-V68 it just looks like it hopped across the Adriatic.

Edit to add Cavalli Sforza autsomal map 4:
http://www.geocities.ws/racial_reality/sicily/pc4.jpg

bicicleur
01-04-15, 19:19
The designation of the find as "E1b1b1a1b" is a direct quote from the paper.

Going by this chart in Wiki, E1b1b1a1b* is E-V13. Does that clarify matters? It would definitely be good if they could reanalyze the sample and give a snp designation so we know the specific subclade, but unless this chart is wrong, isn't it definitely E-V13? Does anyone know if Ray Banks has a chart like this and if it differs?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68

This might still be a sub-clade of E-V13 that went extinct, of course, but we have so few ancient Neolithic samples, when you think of it, that there's no way of knowing yet, and certainly not if we don't get very refined subclade identification.

the paper is dated 2011
checking isogg 2011 http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpE11.html it appears E-V13 was E1b1b1a1b, but E-V13 was derived directly from E-M78 then as Z1919 and L618 were not known yet
I wonder if the individual couldn't have been Z1919 or L618 instead
we really should know which SNPs were confirmed

Yetos
01-04-15, 19:41
In the italian region, E-V13 appears more frequent in mountainous areas (Liguria, Abruzzo, Friuli Venezia Giulia). I think that this has to do with the indoeuropean expansion, and the progressive retreat of "post-neolithic" populations in "safer" areas (the indoeuropean takeover of Europe must have beeen very traumatic, IMHO). It's quite high in Apulia, too, but Apulia was invaded by Illyrians from the western Balkans if I'm not wrong, and E-V13 appears high in some balkanic areas (where its carriers found a refugee, in analogy with what probably happened in Italy?).

you mean the Messapians?

bicicleur
01-04-15, 19:42
It looks to me like a Neolithic entry that might have gotten very lucky in the Metal Ages and had an expansion. It might track a bit with this autosomal spread shown in Cavalli-Sforza, which in turn looks a bit like Greek colonization east, west, and north.

That is what it looks like to me too, especially as the estimated TMRCA is only some 4000 years.
It definately seems to have been part of the Greek colonization east, west, and north. But that does not explain the whole wide distribution across Europe like it is know.
It seems E-V13 participated in multiple expansions, but on the other hand, how many times can one get lucky? Unless you have some very good carts?

Sile
01-04-15, 20:38
There may be something to that, but I don't think we yet know how much of the original E-V13 Neolithic clade survived. The numbers that reached central and western Europe might have been small. We need refined subclade testing of any ancient E-V13 we find, and refined subclade testing of modern samples before we come to any conclusions, in my opinion. Unfortunately, there isn't enough money to go around, and most of the money is going to R1b research, and it's largely R1b people who are getting tested.

I think what may also or perhaps even more likely be the case is that a lot of the E-V13 is a Metal Ages spread from the Balcans and generally from the southeast. The expansion, anyway, seems to date from that time, and that's where E-V13 is most concentrated.

This is one map of E-V13 in Europe:
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif

That doesn't look like it tracks the mountains particularly. There's no particularly high presence down the stretch of the Apennines, for example, as there is for some G2a.

Here's the Wiki map of E-V68 the parent, for what it's worth:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/HgE1b1b1a2.png

It looks to me like a Neolithic entry that might have gotten very lucky in the Metal Ages and had an expansion. It might track a bit with this autosomal spread shown in Cavalli-Sforza, which in turn looks a bit like Greek colonization east, west, and north:

Particularly on the Wiki map of E-V68 it just looks like it hopped across the Adriatic.

Edit to add Cavalli Sforza autsomal map 4:
http://www.geocities.ws/racial_reality/sicily/pc4.jpg

Your map PC4 is why natgeno2 and 23andme refer to people from this area as "GREEK" in their AuDNa

Sile
01-04-15, 20:40
In the italian region, E-V13 appears more frequent in mountainous areas (Liguria, Abruzzo, Friuli Venezia Giulia). I think that this has to do with the indoeuropean expansion, and the progressive retreat of "post-neolithic" populations in "safer" areas (the indoeuropean takeover of Europe must have beeen very traumatic, IMHO). It's quite high in Apulia, too, but Apulia was invaded by Illyrians from the western Balkans if I'm not wrong, and E-V13 appears high in some balkanic areas (where its carriers found a refugee, in analogy with what probably happened in Italy?).

Is E-v13 also known as E-M35? ........because than is what is in Friuli-Venezia-giulia

Angela
01-04-15, 20:56
Sorry, forgot to post the fourth Cavalli Sforza autosomal map. I've corrected the original post.
http://www.geocities.ws/racial_reality/sicily/pc4.jpg

I'd like to know what specific subclade of E-V13 is present in Liguria, which doesn't much match this autosomal spread. Here is the E-V13 map again:
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif


I wonder if it's possible that the Ligurian branch is mostly the Neolithic Cardial related one? After all, that's the route that Cardial took into more western areas of Europe...i.e. along the northern littoral of the Mediterranean from Italy and then down into Spain among other areas. The frequency in Sicily is in the interior plain, so perhaps as Mars suggested the Neolithic strains retreated before subsequent migrations?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/European-middle-neolithic-en.svg/1195px-European-middle-neolithic-en.svg.png

Certainly, Liguria isn't significant in that Cavalli Sforza spread out from the Balkans, although perhaps it's possible it's a spread along the coast from Massalia? So, maybe the yDna track is there, but not much of an autosomal one?

Maleth
02-04-15, 09:22
In the italian region, E-V13 appears more frequent in mountainous areas (Liguria, Abruzzo, Friuli Venezia Giulia). I think that this has to do with the indoeuropean expansion, and the progressive retreat of "post-neolithic" populations in "safer" areas (the indoeuropean takeover of Europe must have beeen very traumatic, IMHO). It's quite high in Apulia, too, but Apulia was invaded by Illyrians from the western Balkans if I'm not wrong, and E-V13 appears high in some balkanic areas (where its carriers found a refugee, in analogy with what probably happened in Italy?).

Mars how do we know that E-V13 is more frequent in mountainous areas? Do we really know the methodology used? What I mean is even if this is so, Isn't most of Italy under this type of terrain? Example in Sicily the biggest hot spot of E-V13 is Piazza Aremeria http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piazza_Armerina If not mistaken that could not be really considered Mountain terrain. Would you have an idea were the samples would be taken from?

Maleth
02-04-15, 09:29
This is what Dienekes has to say about the ancient E-V13 found in the Burial cave of North East Spain. I am not sure if further more refined tests would be able to change this view.

The Ave07 haplotype was also compared with current Eb1b1a2 haplotypes previously published (10–14). It appeared identical at the seven markers tested to five Albanian, two Bosnian, one Greek, one Italian, one Sicilian, two Corsican, and two Provence French samples and are thus placed on the same node of the E1b1b1a1b-V13 network as eastern, central, and western Mediterranean haplotypes (Fig. S1).

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/11/y-haplogroups-e-v13-and-g2a-in.html

Having said that 7 Marker match is not a great deal to go with, so all is possible

Mars
02-04-15, 11:39
you mean the Messapians?
Yes, I talked about them yesterday

Mars
02-04-15, 11:44
Mars how do we know that E-V13 is more frequent in mountainous areas? Do we really know the methodology used? What I mean is even if this is so, Isn't most of Italy under this type of terrain? Example in Sicily the biggest hot spot of E-V13 is Piazza Aremeria http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piazza_Armerina If not mistaken that could not be really considered Mountain terrain. Would you have an idea were the samples would be taken from?
It was simple speculation, since I know those regions - Liguria, Abruzzo and Friuli - have rough and not easy to access mountainous areas, and Maciamo stated that native neolithic populations often took shelter in areas like those, after the arrival of the indoeuropeans.

ESpraguer
23-11-16, 19:20
You have to be very careful in assuming high e1b1b levels in Sicily are all or mostly E-V13. Generally they're not. In Sicily & most parts of western Italy (Liguria & north excepted) E-V13 is less than 50% of all e1b1b samples. Unless you have a study breaking down the e1b1b by subclade, don't assume it is E-V13. E-V13 is more common in the east of Italy. lt hugs the coast & areas east of the Appenines. The way it tracks mountains & more isolated areas in much of Europe (Eastern Europe, Western Spain) is not the pattern seen in Italy. Probably because Italy is simply not exposed to invasion in the same way the east of Europe is. The real division in Italy is the Appenine range itself. E-V13 is generally lower in the mountains of Italy (in both the north & south). It is roughly 7-9% of mountain samples. This holds for mountainous regions in both the north the south of Italy. Coincidentally (or not so coincidentally) this 7-9% number is not much different from the frequency with which E-V13 is found in the Alps (Austria, Switzerland, etc). But as stated, in coastal areas, E-V13 is very high in the north. It's actually not any lower than it is in the southeast (15% or so). Rimini, Genoa, Venice, all coastal northern Italian cities where E-V13 is 15%+. In the few spots in Sicily where e1b1b is 30-40%, E-V13 may be 15% or so, but keep in mind that in Sicily on the whole, e1b1b is roughly 20% of all samples, & of that e1b1b only about 7-8% is E-V13. The opposite is true in the north & the east. E1b1b might be 16% or 17% or 14% or 12% in the north or the east of Italy, depending on the region, but circa 70 or 80% of that e1b1b is E-V13 (that's double the rate in Sicily). So if e1b1b is 14% in one of those regions, 11-12% is E-V13, which is a relatively high E-V13 rate. In fact E-V13 rates are significantly higher in the east & north of Italy, than in Sicily, the south-west & central west of Italy, despite Sicily & the southwest having very high rates of e1b1b.

Sile
23-11-16, 19:31
You have to be very careful in assuming high e1b1b levels in Sicily are all or mostly E-V13. Generally they're not. In Sicily & most parts of western Italy (Liguria & north excepted) E-V13 is less than 50% of all e1b1b samples. Unless you have a study breaking down the e1b1b by subclade, don't assume it is E-V13. E-V13 is more common in the east of Italy. lt hugs the coast & areas east of the Appenines. The way it tracks mountains & more isolated areas in much of Europe (Eastern Europe, Western Spain) is not the pattern seen in Italy. Probably because Italy is simply not exposed to invasion in the same way the east of Europe is. The real division in Italy is the Appenine range itself. E-V13 is generally lower in the mountains of Italy (in both the north & south). It is roughly 7-9% of mountain samples. In the North this is not all that different from the E-V13 rate just north of Italy in the Alps (Austria, Switzerland). But as stated, in coastal areas, E-V13 is very high in the north. It's actually not any lower than it is in the southeast (15% or so). Rimini, Genoa, Venice, all coastal northern Italian cities, E-V13 is 15%+. In the few spots in Sicily where e1b1b is 30-40%, E-V13 may be 15% or so, but keep in mind that in Sicily on the whole, e1b1b is roughly 20% of all samples, & of that e1b1b only about 7-8% is E-V13. The opposite is true in the north & the east. E1b1b might be 18% or 17% or 14% or 12% in the north or the east of Italy, in certain areas, cities, or regions, but circa 80% of that e1b1b is E-V13 (that's double the rate in Sicily). So if e1b1bis 14% in one of those regions, 11-12% is E-V13, which is a relatively high E-V13 rate. In fact it's significantly higher than Sicily taken as a whole. I do not know where you get your numbers from .............but in north-italy the bulk ( 85% ) of E-M35 are the equivalent of E-L117 ...............E-V13 is further down and only a very few in studies are noted as this marker ...........there are many branches that came out of E-M35 , not just E-V13

Angela
23-11-16, 19:35
You have to be very careful in assuming high e1b1b levels in Sicily are all or mostly E-V13. Generally they're not. In Sicily & most parts of western Italy (Liguria & north excepted) E-V13 is less than 50% of all e1b1b samples. Unless you have a study breaking down the e1b1b by subclade, don't assume it is E-V13. E-V13 is more common in the east of Italy. lt hugs the coast & areas east of the Appenines. The way it tracks mountains & more isolated areas in much of Europe (Eastern Europe, Western Spain) is not the pattern seen in Italy. Probably because Italy is simply not exposed to invasion in the same way the east of Europe is. The real division in Italy is the Appenine range itself. E-V13 is generally lower in the mountains of Italy (in both the north & south). It is roughly 7-9% of mountain samples. In the North this is not all that different from the E-V13 rate just north of Italy in the Alps (Austria, Switzerland). But as stated, in coastal areas, E-V13 is very high in the north. It's actually not any lower than it is in the southeast (15% or so). Rimini, Genoa, Venice, all coastal northern Italian cities, E-V13 is 15%+. In the few spots in Sicily where e1b1b is 30-40%, E-V13 may be 15% or so, but keep in mind that in Sicily on the whole, e1b1b is roughly 20% of all samples, & of that e1b1b only about 7-8% is E-V13. The opposite is true in the north & the east. E1b1b might be 18% or 17% or 14% or 12% in the north or the east of Italy, in certain areas, cities, or regions, but circa 80% of that e1b1b is E-V13 (that's double the rate in Sicily). So if e1b1bis 14% in one of those regions, 11-12% is E-V13, which is a relatively high E-V13 rate. In fact it's significantly higher than Sicily taken as a whole.For every claim you make please post a link to the precise paper where the data can be found.The page number would be helpful as well. If the material is in a chart please provide a link or reproduce it.

ESpraguer
23-11-16, 19:58
I do not know where you get your numbers from .............but in north-italy the bulk ( 85% ) of E-M35 are the equivalent of E-L117 ...............E-V13 is further down and only a very few in studies are noted as this marker ...........there are many branches that came out of E-M35 , not just E-V13 Sure. Boattini et al: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0065441. Go into Table S1 & S2. Breaking down the numbers is easy, but the patterns are quite clear. E-V13 is heavy in the coastal east & the coastal north.

Sile
23-11-16, 20:12
Sure. Boattini et al: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0065441. Go into Table S1 & S2. Breaking down the numbers is easy, but the patterns are quite clear. E-V13 is heavy in the coastal east & the coastal north. I see only 50% in North-west Italy ........and nothing for North-East Italy also, you are assuming E-V13 is coastal

ESpraguer
23-11-16, 20:19
I can't explain Cavalli Sforza's autosomal line exactly, but I'll say this: often the creation of maps like this are based upon arbitrarily chosen lines of equal "something". The boundaries are therefore artificial. Because an area is slightly over a line or slightly under a line may not really tell you that much. In truth, the gradients are gradual. The lines make the gradual gradients seem like boundaries or jumps, even though they're not really. Although a town 100 miles east might be within some different zone, the actual genetic differences between the areas might be infinitessimal. The map is by and large meant to show a particular pattern. In doing so however, it sacrifices precision for conceptual understanding. I share your thoughts on the possible neolithic Cardial connection to Liguria. However, until someone actually looks at the V-13 from the area, it is pure speculation as to how far in time it goes back. Nevertheless, here is my crude map on possible Cardial movements. I think the maritime route around Sicily seems significantly less likely, although we're talking about large time spans so who really knows? Still, I think V-13's distribution tracks a land movement along the eastern Appenines & into the Po Valley.

ESpraguer
23-11-16, 20:28
I think you're confused regarding the table. Northwest Italy is area 1. In this area 9.3% of all haplos are E-V13. The other E's altogether total 2.4%. That makes E-V13 just under 80% of all E in area 1. In Northeast Italy (area 2) E-V13 is 11% of all haplos (an even higher rate). There is a larger percentage of non E-V13 here however. 5.5% of haplos are non E-V13 E. That means exactly 2/3 (66.66%) of all E in NE Italy is E-V13. This is slightly lower than the Northwest but it's significantly higher than south-west & central-west Italy where E-V13 comprises only 30-50% of all E. Along the east coast of Italy as a whole, E-V13 is on average about 3/4 of all E (much like in the north as a whole). That's roughly double the % of E found in the west. The east also has about 1.5x as much E-V13 in absolute numbers (Liguria excepted).

ESpraguer
23-11-16, 21:20
Thanks The TMRCA for E-V13 is only between 4900-3800ybp ...........according to YFULL.com its formation is 12500ybp How important is TMRCA in regards to E-V13? Yeah, we can say pretty definitively at this point that this is wrong. We have E-V13 confirmed in Cardium era Spain & we have E-M78 from both Sopot & Lengyel from same time period. Unfortunately the author did not dig deeper into sub-clade to confirm E-V13, but given the age & the region I'd bet 20-1 some if not all of the E samples are E-V13. So we have E-V13 in Cardium Pottery Spain & half way across the continent in Pannonian region from roughly 7000 yrs ago. Yet V13 expanded 4000 yrs ago? Don't think so. There may have been multiple expansions as I believe Mars & Angela suggested (at least one in the Bronze age (Greek) & one 8000 yrs ago or so & there may even be others). However, I think we can say pretty definitively E-V13 started expanding long before 4000 years ago. Also, given its distribution in virtually every corner of Europe, I think its origins in Europe & its presence generally go way back. http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte/2015/4075/pdf/doc.pdf http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779 http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/11/y-haplogroups-e-v13-and-g2a-in.html

Yetos
23-11-16, 21:53
Sorry, forgot to post the fourth Cavalli Sforza autosomal map. I've corrected the original post.http://www.geocities.ws/racial_reality/sicily/pc4.jpgI'd like to know what specific subclade of E-V13 is present in Liguria, which doesn't much match this autosomal spread. Here is the E-V13 map again:http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gifI wonder if it's possible that the Ligurian branch is mostly the Neolithic Cardial related one? After all, that's the route that Cardial took into more western areas of Europe...i.e. along the northern littoral of the Mediterranean from Italy and then down into Spain among other areas. The frequency in Sicily is in the interior plain, so perhaps as Mars suggested the Neolithic strains retreated before subsequent migrations?http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/European-middle-neolithic-en.svg/1195px-European-middle-neolithic-en.svg.pngCertainly, Liguria isn't significant in that Cavalli Sforza spread out from the Balkans, although perhaps it's possible it's a spread along the coast from Massalia? So, maybe the yDna track is there, but not much of an autosomal one?Is n't Genoua at Liguria? possibilty of migration from colonies to capital?

Angela
23-11-16, 22:47
Is n't Genoua at Liguria? possibilty of migration from colonies to capital?It's an interesting thought, but perhaps a movement of mtDna might be more likely?I think the ties of Venice to Greece and the Balkans are even stronger, yes?My cousin married a Venetian, and she had to name her son Archimedi as that was the family tradition. Poor thing, we just call him Medi. :)https://i.ytimg.com/vi/cPY08HpWdII/maxresdefault.jpg

ESpraguer
23-11-16, 23:40
There is ample E-V13 in the east of Italy. Not sure what percentage is Messapian but I'm pretty sure some is. Then of course there is the question about the origins of the North & South Picentes/Picentinis (North Picene language might not even be Indo-European oddly enough). However, Rimini and this area of north-central/central east Italy (Valmarechia) is also an e1b1b hotspot (15-20% or so) (Ferri et al), & roughly 3/4 is in all likelihood E-V13. Even higher just to the south in Marche near Ancona & Fabriano (20%) (Onofri et al). Lot of E-V13 in the east of the peninsula. Far more than in the west.

ESpraguer
24-11-16, 02:47
Yeah, they are. The Republic of Venice even included parts of the Balkans & Greece at various points throughout history. Ties are very strong. I kind of like the name "Archimedes". Was he brainy? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Venice#/media/File:Repubblica_di_Venezia.png

LABERIA
24-11-16, 11:50
There is ample E-V13 in the east of Italy. Not sure what percentage is Messapian but I'm pretty sure some is. Then of course there is the question about the origins of the North & South Picentes/Picentinis (North Picene language might not even be Indo-European oddly enough). However, Rimini and this area of north-central/central east Italy (Valmarechia) is also an e1b1b hotspot (15-20% or so) (Ferri et al), & roughly 3/4 is in all likelihood E-V13. Even higher just to the south in Marche near Ancona & Fabriano (20%) (Onofri et al). Lot of E-V13 in the east of the peninsula. Far more than in the west.To be honest i don't understand nothing from genetics and i prefer to read here in order to learn something. I will try to express my opinion from an historical point of view. From your post i have learn that there is a lot of E-V13 in east of italic peninsula. From the genetic map i see that the highest concentration of this haplogroup is in Albania especially in Kosova. And Eastern part of Appennini is in front of Albania. There is this theory of messapians being illyrians, ok. But what we know from historical sources is that there were many migration from Albania to Italy. Illyrians fought against Romans but later they became the back bone of Roman Empire with important presence in the Roman army. There is a long list of Roman Emperors who were Illyrians.Also during the middle age there was different migrations of Albanians toward Italy. I think this explain why in the Eastern side of Peninsula there is this concentration of E-V13.

Angela
24-11-16, 15:59
To be honest i don't understand nothing from genetics and i prefer to read here in order to learn something. I will try to express my opinion from an historical point of view. From your post i have learn that there is a lot of E-V13 in east of italic peninsula. From the genetic map i see that the highest concentration of this haplogroup is in Albania especially in Kosova. And Eastern part of Appennini is in front of Albania. There is this theory of messapians being illyrians, ok. But what we know from historical sources is that there were many migration from Albania to Italy. Illyrians fought against Romans but later they became the back bone of Roman Empire with important presence in the Roman army. There is a long list of Roman Emperors who were Illyrians.Also during the middle age there was different migrations of Albanians toward Italy. I think this explain why in the Eastern side of Peninsula there is this concentration of E-V13.That's absolutely correct. The "Adriatic Zone", if I can call it that, has been exchanging genes for a long time, as has the entire Balkan area and Italy. In fact, according to Ralph and Coop, the only significant gene flow into Italy since the Celtic migrations of the first millennium BC has been from the Balkans. See: Ralph and Coophttp://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555Also, the trade between the eastern coastal areas and Greece goes back to the Mycenaeans and beyond.

Sile
24-11-16, 18:54
I think you're confused regarding the table. Northwest Italy is area 1. In this area 9.3% of all haplos are E-V13. The other E's altogether total 2.4%. That makes E-V13 just under 80% of all E in area 1. In Northeast Italy (area 2) E-V13 is 11% of all haplos (an even higher rate). There is a larger percentage of non E-V13 here however. 5.5% of haplos are non E-V13 E. That means exactly 2/3 (66.66%) of all E in NE Italy is E-V13. This is slightly lower than the Northwest but it's significantly higher than south-west & central-west Italy where E-V13 comprises only 30-50% of all E. Along the east coast of Italy as a whole, E-V13 is on average about 3/4 of all E (much like in the north as a whole). That's roughly double the % of E found in the west. The east also has about 1.5x as much E-V13 in absolute numbers (Liguria excepted). https://www.familytreedna.com/public/northitaly?iframe=yresults do you fit with any person in this ftdna link .............................. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Alpine_DNA_Project_AlpGen_Genealogy?iframe=yresult s .............maybe this one

LABERIA
25-11-16, 01:17
There may be something to that, but I don't think we yet know how much of the original E-V13 Neolithic clade survived. The numbers that reached central and western Europe might have been small. We need refined subclade testing of any ancient E-V13 we find, and refined subclade testing of modern samples before we come to any conclusions, in my opinion. Unfortunately, there isn't enough money to go around, and most of the money is going to R1b research, and it's largely R1b people who are getting tested. I think what may also or perhaps even more likely be the case is that a lot of the E-V13 is a Metal Ages spread from the Balcans and generally from the southeast. The expansion, anyway, seems to date from that time, and that's where E-V13 is most concentrated. This is one map of E-V13 in Europe: http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif From this map is evident that the highest concentration of E-V13 in Europe is in the region of Kosova. In antiquity the region of Kosova was called Dardania, from the famous Illyrian tribe of Dardanians. Fanula Papazoglu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanula_Papazoglu), professor of ancient history at the University of Belgrade, who has written extensively on the Illyrians (see among others, Les origines et la destinee de l'Etat illyrien - Illyrii proprie dicti, in Historia, Wiesbaden, 14, 1965, Heft 2), has also devoted a long chapter to the Dardanians in her work The Central Balkan Tribes in Pre-Roman Times...(Engl. Transl. from the Serbo-Croatian, Amsterdam, Hakkert, 1978, 664 p.). In this latter work she indicates that: Not one of the peoples with whom we have to deal in this book has such a claim to the epithet "Balkan" as the Dardanians... because they appear as the most stable and the most conservative ethnic element in the area where everything was exposed to constant change, and also because they, with their roots in the distant prehomeric age, and living in the frontiers of the Illyrian and the Thracian worlds retained their individuality and, alone among the peoples of that region succeeded in maintaining themselves as an ethnic unity even when they were militarily and politically subjected by the Roman arms...and when at the end of the ancient world, the Balkans were involved in far-reaching ethnic perturbations, the Dardanians, of all the Central Balkan tribes, played the greatest part in the genesis of the new peoples who took the place of the old (p.131). Also i want to add that there were some connections between Albania and Genoa who is in the western part of Appenine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durazzo_family Someone can say it`s just an family. The ways of organizing the Albanian society is clannish. When an important family migrated in a another country, many other followed it. It`s something that we see in our days. You know, brothers, cousins, friends arrive one after another, helping each other. :D Also Durres during the middle age was part of Albania Veneta and in the city there were two neighborhood, one Venetian and one Genoese. After that Durres fell in the hand of the Ottomans in year 1501, this people migrated in Italy and probably the Venetians went in Venecia and the Genoese in Genoa. And it`s high probabile that some Albanians migrated with Italians. In Venice was a large colony of Albanians from North Albania who migrated especially after the fell of Shkodra.

ESpraguer
25-11-16, 02:23
From this map is evident that the highest concentration of E-V13 in Europe is in the region of Kosova. In antiquity the region of Kosova was called Dardania, from the famous Illyrian tribe of Dardanians. Fanula Papazoglu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanula_Papazoglu), professor of ancient history at the University of Belgrade, who has written extensively on the Illyrians (see among others, Les origines et la destinee de l'Etat illyrien - Illyrii proprie dicti, in Historia, Wiesbaden, 14, 1965, Heft 2), has also devoted a long chapter to the Dardanians in her work The Central Balkan Tribes in Pre-Roman Times...(Engl. Transl. from the Serbo-Croatian, Amsterdam, Hakkert, 1978, 664 p.). In this latter work she indicates that: Not one of the peoples with whom we have to deal in this book has such a claim to the epithet "Balkan" as the Dardanians... because they appear as the most stable and the most conservative ethnic element in the area where everything was exposed to constant change, and also because they, with their roots in the distant prehomeric age, and living in the frontiers of the Illyrian and the Thracian worlds retained their individuality and, alone among the peoples of that region succeeded in maintaining themselves as an ethnic unity even when they were militarily and politically subjected by the Roman arms...and when at the end of the ancient world, the Balkans were involved in far-reaching ethnic perturbations, the Dardanians, of all the Central Balkan tribes, played the greatest part in the genesis of the new peoples who took the place of the old (p.131). Also i want to add that there were some connections between Albania and Genoa who is in the western part of Appenine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durazzo_family Someone can say it`s just an family. The ways of organizing the Albanian society is clannish. When an important family migrated in a another country, many other followed it. It`s something that we see in our days. You know, brothers, cousins, friends arrive one after another, helping each other. :D Also Durres during the middle age was part of Albania Veneta and in the city there were two neighborhood, one Venetian and one Genoese. After that Durres fell in the hand of the Ottomans in year 1501, this people migrated in Italy and probably the Venetians went in Venecia and the Genoese in Genoa. And it`s high probabile that some Albanians migrated with Italians. In Venice was a large colony of Albanians from North Albania who migrated especially after the fell of Shkodra. 1) E-V13 is very high in Kosovar Albanians. Why is this so? Who knows? It doesn't mean that E-V13 however originated in the Albanian people or should in some way be equated with Albanians. By no means. E-V13 varies drastically within Albanian populations. It is significantly higher in the Gegs (40%) than the Tosks (30%). And amongst the Arbaresh Albanians in Italy, E-V13 is not really all that common at all (only about 13%). However, 30-40% E-V13 is really not all that rare in this region of Europe. We find E-V13 at 30%+ in some parts of Bulgaria (north) & some parts of Greece (indeed the Peloponnesian peninsula registers at roughly 35% E-V13). Even in areas outside the Balkans, like in Apulia & Marche & in and around Venice (eastern Italy), you can find pockets of E-V13 at 20-30%. In Albania on the whole, most studies put E-V13 at 30-35%. This is not much different than Macedonians & Montenegrins (30% E-V13 each). There are pockets of E-V13 in various spots around southeast Europe. They don't necessarily follow any obvious ethnic or national distributional pattern. Different areas & lines might have a concentration of a particular haplo & then for whatever reason others don't. E-V13 really doesn't track any ethnicity well at all. It's common in the Balkans & Greece & somewhat common in east-central Europe & Italy but its distribution fluctuates a lot. 2) I am extremely hesitant to link E-V13 with known ethnic groups or known historical events. This is very tricky to do. It's also a bad pattern to fall into. Most human movements occurred prior to 2000-3000 years ago. E-V13 is a haplogroup that has been in Europe roughly 10,000 years. I'm much more comfortable making conservative statements like "some of the E-V13 in eastern Italy probably comes from known migrations of Illyrians from the Balkans" or "some of the E-V13 in Sicily comes from Greek Bronze Age settlements", but I'd bet much if not most of it comes from events long before written records adequately captured them. 3) The Hutterites are 45% E-V13. The Carpatho-Rusyns are 20-25% E-V13. Maybe they're all Albanians? LOL. Again, the reason E-V13 concentrates in an area or in a population is often hard to explain & to know. However, I do share your view that communities in Europe with higher E-V13 rates tend to be more insular & isolated. Why we see higher E-V13 in mountainous regions generally & in more insular ethnic & religious groups (Rusyns, Hutterites). Your claims about Albanians being some pure line seem to me a bunch of fluff. Albania & Kosovo were both dominated & under Ottoman control for centuries (indeed, almost half a millennium). And generally they were pretty brutal to their subjects & left a significant genetic footprint in the regions they occupied. However, most of SE Europe has been pretty successful repelling invaders. This is pretty clear just from the Y-DNA data we find there & its contrast with the west of Europe, which is far more R1b dominated. The Greeks & Bulgarians are notorious for hostilely driving out invaders through the centuries. However, the Greeks & the Bulgarians retained their culture & civilization. The Albanians (along with the Bosnians) on the other hand converted to Islam en masse. http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1020&context=humbiol_preprints

ESpraguer
25-11-16, 03:04
Yes, actually. Reinhardt Klopfer from Bietigheim, Baden-Wurttemberg, southern Germany is close (ish). That's probably the closest one. It's pretty close, but I've seen closer.

Angela
25-11-16, 03:41
With the very few E-V13 ancient samples we have to hand, and none from Neolithic Italy or the southern Balkans, we do not currently, imo, have the evidence to make a statement like: " I'd bet much if not most of it comes from events long before written records adequately captured them." Constantly repeating one's "hunches" is not anymore persuasive the sixth time it's said than it was the first time. Of course, there are a few papers on ancient Italian dna in the pipeline, so the proof may be right around the corner.In addition, while it's clear that certain groups in the Balkans converted to Islam, I've never seen any genetic evidence from reputable scientific sources for significant absorption of Turks. We expect people who post here to produce evidence for their statements, and not to make provocative comments about other ethnicities. Plus, that subject is off topic for this thread.

ESpraguer
25-11-16, 04:34
1) It's actually pretty persuasive in the context of strong indirect & circumstantial evidence. We have Cardium E-V13 in Spain, likely E-V13 in Sopot & Lengyel, not far from Northern Italy, & Cardium Culture is quite literally centered in Italy. It's hardly a "hunch" to suspect that much of it, if not most of it comes from the neolithic or from periods prior to known/recorded migrations of people (within last 2-3000 years). It seems to me nearly certain. An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I've already conceded it's somewhat speculative but it's also an inference with a substantial basis in the only evidence that we do have. 2) I find it funny that you have a problem with my "hunches" but this guy talking about the genetic purity of the Albanians/Dardanians is a comment that passes muster with you. That's rich. It genuinely makes me chuckle. Prejudice much? 3) Religion is off-limits in this forum? Any other quasi-totalitarian speech codes I should know about? 4) As for saying the Greeks & Bulgarians preserved their culture & civilization, your problem is that it is somewhat incendiary, correct? But isn't it true nevertheless? Are we never to say anything mildly offensive in these fora, no matter how true? 5) Indeed, it will be no doubt be interesting to see what some of those neolithic Italian samples reveal.

LABERIA
25-11-16, 12:23
1) E-V13 is very high in Kosovar Albanians. Why is this so? Who knows? It doesn't mean that E-V13 however originated in the Albanian people or should in some way be equated with Albanians. By no means. E-V13 varies drastically within Albanian populations. It is significantly higher in the Gegs (40%) than the Tosks (30%). And amongst the Arbaresh Albanians in Italy, E-V13 is not really all that common at all (only about 13%). However, 30-40% E-V13 is really not all that rare in this region of Europe. We find E-V13 at 30%+ in some parts of Bulgaria (north) & some parts of Greece (indeed the Peloponnesian peninsula registers at roughly 35% E-V13). Even in areas outside the Balkans, like in Apulia & Marche & in and around Venice (eastern Italy), you can find pockets of E-V13 at 20-30%. In Albania on the whole, most studies put E-V13 at 30-35%. This is not much different than Macedonians & Montenegrins (30% E-V13 each). There are pockets of E-V13 in various spots around southeast Europe. They don't necessarily follow any obvious ethnic or national distributional pattern. Different areas & lines might have a concentration of a particular haplo & then for whatever reason others don't. E-V13 really doesn't track any ethnicity well at all. It's common in the Balkans & Greece & somewhat common in east-central Europe & Italy but its distribution fluctuates a lot. 2) I am extremely hesitant to link E-V13 with known ethnic groups or known historical events. This is very tricky to do. It's also a bad pattern to fall into. Most human movements occurred prior to 2000-3000 years ago. E-V13 is a haplogroup that has been in Europe roughly 10,000 years. I'm much more comfortable making conservative statements like "some of the E-V13 in eastern Italy probably comes from known migrations of Illyrians from the Balkans" or "some of the E-V13 in Sicily comes from Greek Bronze Age settlements", but I'd bet much if not most of it comes from events long before written records adequately captured them. 3) The Hutterites are 45% E-V13. The Carpatho-Rusyns are 20-25% E-V13. Maybe they're all Albanians? LOL. Again, the reason E-V13 concentrates in an area or in a population is often hard to explain & to know. However, I do share your view that communities in Europe with higher E-V13 rates tend to be more insular & isolated. Why we see higher E-V13 in mountainous regions generally & in more insular ethnic & religious groups (Rusyns, Hutterites). Your claims about Albanians being some pure line seem to me a bunch of fluff. Albania & Kosovo were both dominated & under Ottoman control for centuries (indeed, almost half a millennium). And generally they were pretty brutal to their subjects & left a significant genetic footprint in the regions they occupied. However, most of SE Europe has been pretty successful repelling invaders. This is pretty clear just from the Y-DNA data we find there & its contrast with the west of Europe, which is far more R1b dominated. The Greeks & Bulgarians are notorious for hostilely driving out invaders through the centuries. However, the Greeks & the Bulgarians retained their culture & civilization. The Albanians (along with the Bosnians) on the other hand converted to Islam en masse. http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1020&context=humbiol_preprints

I have some doubt about your knowledge regards the history of the Balkan region, particularly for the period of Ottoman occupation. But this thread has nothing to do with the Ottoman invasion and i don`t intend to derail this thread with this kind of discussion. Just to say that from your post is evident that you don`t know this part of history.
I don`t claim any kind of ethnic purity. I have expressed my opinion about this, but since you are a new member let me repeat it. Albanians are a nation with important but not decisive admixtures with other nation.
About the period of Ottoman occupation let me quote an Bulgar scholar:

Antonina Zhelyazkova's paper: Islamization in the Balkans as a Historiographical Problem: the Southeast-European Perspective in: The Ottomans and the Balkans, A Discussion of Historiography ed. Fikret Adanir, Suraiya Faroqhi

p 240-244

Ottoman residents in the Albanian provinces

As to the colonization of Albania by Muslims from Anatolia or Istanbul, the numbers involved were insignificant compared to the population movements occurring in Thrace, Macedonia and Bulgaria. An Ottoman tax register from the year 1432, one of the oldest of its kind to survive, contains data about the settlement of people from Anatolia in the newly conquered Ottoman province of Arranid, in modern Albania.37 Some of these were military men from the Anatolian sub-provinces of Saruhan (modern Manisa), Konya and Canik (modern Samsun), appointed to administer timars. Others were officers of fortress garrisons (mustahfiz); thus the mustahfiz of Iskarpara (today's Skrapari) came from Saruhan. Given the dangerously unstable situation in Albania at the time, these appointments probably constituted exile more than rewards for military merit or loyalty to the sultan. In all likelihood, we are not wrong in suspecting that some of these people were appointed to Albanian timars in order to remove them from the province in which they had a local following or from the Ottoman capital. Even so, these men were expected to found the first Muslim centers in Albania, which later would represent the sultan's power and defend the interests of the Ottoman state. Anatolian peasants as well as dervish missionaries sporadically established themselves as well, for instance in the sub-province of Dukagin.
Governing Albanian districts on behalf of the sultan must have been a daunting task. Certain Catholic clans of northern Albania sometimes refused to admit the officials who were to compile the tax registers, that mainstay of Ottoman provincial administration. It also was not unknown for certain clans to declare themselves Muslims while continuing to observe Catholic rituals. This inclination must have wreaked havoc with the registration process, which, after all, was based on the differentiation between Muslims and non-Muslims. Even in the Shkoder district, of special importance to the central administration on account of its strategic location on the Adriatic coast, Ottoman control of the mountain villages was shaky at best. Given these difficulties, the Ottoman government attempted to institute a minimal control over, and communication with, the population of mountain settlements by integrating their leaders into its own administrative hierarchy. An Albanian elder when thus coopted, was entered into the tax registers as a timar-holder, and de jure shared the rights and responsibilities of these warrior-administrators. In practice, however, he often must have defended the interests of the closed peasant or herding community from which he came, while seeing to the timely payment of taxes and the recruitment of soldiers for the Ottoman armies. In this fashion, imperial power could be exercised in a mode acceptable in terms of the local laws and established social organization.

I can give you some examples of the mixing of population among our neighbors, but i don`t think this is the case.
The problem with you and many other people is that you judge about other people not starting from the knowledge you have accumulated after reading serious authors, but on the basis of inaccurate stereotypes. Conversion in Islam does not mean mixing of population. There was no turkish settlements in Albania. Albanians didn`t mix with turks. Usually when a Turk was assigned to go in Albania, this was considered a punishment. And Bosnians are a different nation from Albanians. They are slavs.

LABERIA
25-11-16, 12:31
1) It's actually pretty persuasive in the context of strong indirect & circumstantial evidence. We have Cardium E-V13 in Spain, likely E-V13 in Sopot & Lengyel, not far from Northern Italy, & Cardium Culture is quite literally centered in Italy. It's hardly a "hunch" to suspect that much of it, if not most of it comes from the neolithic or from periods prior to known/recorded migrations of people (within last 2-3000 years). It seems to me nearly certain. An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I've already conceded it's somewhat speculative but it's also an inference with a substantial basis in the only evidence that we do have. 2) I find it funny that you have a problem with my "hunches" but this guy talking about the genetic purity of the Albanians/Dardanians is a comment that passes muster with you. That's rich. It genuinely makes me chuckle. Prejudice much? 3) Religion is off-limits in this forum? Any other quasi-totalitarian speech codes I should know about? 4) As for saying the Greeks & Bulgarians preserved their culture & civilization, your problem is that it is somewhat incendiary, correct? But isn't it true nevertheless? Are we never to say anything mildly offensive in these fora, no matter how true? 5) Indeed, it will be no doubt be interesting to see what some of those neolithic Italian samples reveal.
This is totally inaccurate. Try to read carefully my post. I quoted an scholar who is greek ancestry and citizen of ex-Yugoslavia professor of ancient history at the University of Belgrade, so an unbiased source:



Fanula Papazoglu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanula_Papazoglu), professor of ancient history at the University of Belgrade, who has written extensively on the Illyrians (see among others, Les origines et la destinee de l'Etat illyrien - Illyrii proprie dicti, in Historia, Wiesbaden, 14, 1965, Heft 2), has also devoted a long chapter to the Dardanians in her work The Central Balkan Tribes in Pre-Roman Times...(Engl. Transl. from the Serbo-Croatian, Amsterdam, Hakkert, 1978, 664 p.). In this latter work she indicates that: Not one of the peoples with whom we have to deal in this book has such a claim to the epithet "Balkan" as the Dardanians... because they appear as the most stable and the most conservative ethnic element in the area where everything was exposed to constant change, and also because they, with their roots in the distant prehomeric age, and living in the frontiers of the Illyrian and the Thracian worlds retained their individuality and, alone among the peoples of that region succeeded in maintaining themselves as an ethnic unity even when they were militarily and politically subjected by the Roman arms...and when at the end of the ancient world, the Balkans were involved in far-reaching ethnic perturbations, the Dardanians, of all the Central Balkan tribes, played the greatest part in the genesis of the new peoples who took the place of the old (p.131).
Where you have read this genetic purity in my post?

Angela
25-11-16, 16:21
1) It's actually pretty persuasive in the context of strong indirect & circumstantial evidence. We have Cardium E-V13 in Spain, likely E-V13 in Sopot & Lengyel, not far from Northern Italy, & Cardium Culture is quite literally centered in Italy. It's hardly a "hunch" to suspect that much of it, if not most of it comes from the neolithic or from periods prior to known/recorded migrations of people (within last 2-3000 years). It seems to me nearly certain. An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I've already conceded it's somewhat speculative but it's also an inference with a substantial basis in the only evidence that we do have. 2) I find it funny that you have a problem with my "hunches" but this guy talking about the genetic purity of the Albanians/Dardanians is a comment that passes muster with you. That's rich. It genuinely makes me chuckle. Prejudice much? 3) Religion is off-limits in this forum? Any other quasi-totalitarian speech codes I should know about? 4) As for saying the Greeks & Bulgarians preserved their culture & civilization, your problem is that it is somewhat incendiary, correct? But isn't it true nevertheless? Are we never to say anything mildly offensive in these fora, no matter how true? 5) Indeed, it will be no doubt be interesting to see what some of those neolithic Italian samples reveal.

As you are new, I'm going to just give you a warning this time. Insulting a member results in an infraction. Insulting or provoking a team member results in an infraction that carries even more consequences. Cut it out.

You're free to believe you have solved all the riddles of E-V13. You may even be correct. I just don't think the evidence we have so far is persuasive, especially given the clear signs of a very large expansion in the Bronze Age. What I don't understand, as I said, is why you keep beating this drum. Your position is clear. Repeating the same data and points in post after post isn't going to persuade anyone who wasn't persuaded the first time.

As for the rest, stay on topic, and provide citations from reputable sources for the claims you make. Oh, and no gratuitous, off topic, provocative comments about other ethnicities.

@Laberia,
You say you don't want to de-rail the thread and then proceed to do so. The next off-topic post will be deleted.

Sile
25-11-16, 19:48
Albania Veneta was mostly comprised of modern Montenegro lands with some Albanian lands ...............there where no Montenegro at the time as montenegrians comprised of a mix of croats, albanians, dalmatians and serbians

http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Venetian_Albania

Montenegro is a venetian word coming from monte=mountains and negro =black ............it was used as a geographical marker for sailors .

Durres is in Albania proper foundered by Greeks after they won the war against the liburnians ...........the greeks also took Corfu
founded as Epidamnos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidamnos) in the year 627 BC by ancient Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece)[6]


(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durr%C3%ABs#cite_note-6)
Butrint is the other Albanian city owned by the Venetians
known as Bouthroton was originally a town within the Adriatic Balkan region of Epirus. It was one of the major centres of the Greek tribe of the Chaonians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaonians),[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buthrotum#cite_note-4)


E-V13 is so far downstream from E-M35 that it is ridiculous to even link the 2 for any historical purposes in regards to migrational paths



yfull has the following

E-L618 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/) CTS2003 * Y3763/FGC11427 * CTS6178+55 SNPsformed 12100 ybp, TMRCA 7700 ybpinfo (https://www.yfull.com/tree-info/E-L618/)

E-L618* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618*/)

id:YF03299LVA [LV-BU]


E-V13 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/)Y3764/FGC14553 * V13/PF2211 * CTS5935/PF2235/Z1053+35 SNPsformed 7700 ybp, TMRCA 4200 ybpinfo (https://www.yfull.com/tree-info/E-V13/)

id:YF07626new
id:YF07623new
id:YF05464
id:ERS256006ITA [IT-CA]
id:ERS255990ITA [IT-CA]
id:YF04880
id:YF04752
id:YF02828
E-V13* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13*/)
E-Z38518 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z38518/) Y16728 * Y16715 * Y16730+22 SNPsformed 4200 ybp, TMRCA 600 ybpinfo (https://www.yfull.com/tree-info/E-Z38518/)

id:YF03923
id:YF03221IRL








ERS = sardianian studies
YF = members of Big Y
HG = from YHRD

ybp starts in the year 1950AD

Sile
25-11-16, 22:01
"In this latter work she indicates that: Not one of the peoples with whom we have to deal in this book has such a claim to the epithet "Balkan" as the Dardanians... because they appear as the most stable and the most conservative ethnic element in the area where everything was exposed to constant change, and also because they, with their roots in the distant prehomeric age, and living in the frontiers of the Illyrian and the Thracian worlds retained their individuality and, alone among the peoples of that region succeeded in maintaining themselves as an ethnic unity even when they were militarily and politically subjected by the Roman arms...and when at the end of the ancient world, the Balkans were involved in far-reaching ethnic perturbations, the Dardanians, of all the Central Balkan tribes, played the greatest part in the genesis of the new peoples who took the place of the old (p.131). Also i want to add that there were some connections between Albania and Genoa who is in the western part of Appenine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durazzo_family Someone can say it`s just an family. The ways of organizing the Albanian society is clannish."

"Racial/genetic purity"... wherever did I get that thought from? Well, let's see:

Claim 1 translated: Basically, we are the purest of the Balkan people.
Claim 2: Dardanians are the most stable & conservative ethnic element in the Balkans, indicating ethnic purity, continuity, & minimal external genetic input.
Claim 3: "Alone among the Balkans", again suggesting they are of the purest Balkan type.
Claim 4: Maintained themselves as "an ethnic unity". W/e that means it sure sounds a lot like ethnic preservation & racial purity.
Claim 5: "...the Dardanians, of all the Central Balkan tribes, played the greatest part in the genesis of the new peoples who took the place of the old At the end of the ancient world". So, the Dardanians were the source population for the reconstitution of the Balkan people. Not only are we the purest, but we are the root of all others! LOL.

LOL. Wherever could I get this idea about Kosovar Albanian ethnic purity? LOL.

Now let me elucidate some of the problems I have with your points & their link to this discussion:

1) I'm nowhere near ready to connect the ancient Dardanians with modern Kosovars.Tribes shift, move, migrate, are wiped out & reconstitute themselves over and over again in a region. Just because an area happened to be occupied by a tribe 2000 years or so ago, doesn't mean that area is still occupied by that tribe or its descendants. Actually, in light of the history of the Balkans with its many conflicts & upheavals, this seems rather unlikely. I'd say you undoubtedly implied a link between Dardanians & modern Kosovars, even if you didn't spell it out clearly.
2) Even if we take some of this "Greek" professor's ideas concerning the region seriously or at face value, they sound speculative to the extreme. There are a million reasons professors believe this or that. Even reputable geneticists, who are supposed to be hard scientists, are constantly writing conjectural lunacy down that turns out to be completely divorced from reality after new data or good direct data emerges. Combine this with the unreliability and imprecision of 2000 year old records & this makes the connections between ancient Dardanians and Albanians/Kosovars all the more tenuous. Ans when historians talk about "ethnic unity" or anything quasi-genetic in nature, it's pretty much always conjecture.
3) That a group has slightly higher Y haplo rate is not strong evidence that this group is the source point for the haplogroup. It's hardly even weak evidence. Why some haplogroup concentrates in a particular place or ethnic group is sometimes for very peculiar reasons. At other times, it's difficult to explain. As stated, there are a lot of groups far from the Balkans with high E-V13 rates & there are many other areas in SE Europe with similar high levels of E-V13. Sometimes this is due to founder effects. The progenitors or founders of a group, tribe or region happen to have this haplo or that one, & voila, group members down the line also have elevated rates.
4) I simply can't compete with your extensive knowledge regarding crack-pot Albanian historians. No way. Your knowledge in that arena is unrivaled.
5) Bosnians are Slavs because they speak a Slavic language. But if you take DNA seriously, which I do, I'm really not sure I'd call Bosnians Slavs at all. In fact, this final point speaks to the divide between your points & mine. I'm trying to talk about Y-DNA, which is what I thought this thread was about.

Dardanians lived in what is now modern Kosovo.............they where a separate ethnic group , more Moesian than thracian or macedonian or even Illyrian ..........my guess is that the moesians/dardanians a linked with the Paeonians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonia_(kingdom)

The Dardani where destroyed by the Bastarnae ( people invited by the macedonians to wipe out the Dardanians )......story also confirmed by Roman scholars

The Bastarnae crossed the Danube in huge numbers and although they didn't meet the Macedonians, they continued the campaign. Some 30,000 Bastarnae under the command of Clondicus seem to have defeated the Dardani.[27] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardani#cite_note-27) In 179 BC, the Bastarnae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarnae) conquered the Dardani, who later in 174 pushed them out, in a war which proved catastrophic, with a few years later, in 170 BC, the Macedonians defeating the Dardani.[28] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardani#cite_note-FOOTNOTEM.C3.B3csy201410-28)

LABERIA
25-11-16, 22:27
@ Sile & ESpraguer, both you are wrong but:



@Laberia,
You say you don't want to de-rail the thread and then proceed to do so. The next off-topic post will be deleted.
If you want open a new thread and let`s discuss about this issues.

Sile
26-11-16, 00:12
@ Sile & ESpraguer, both you are wrong but:

If you want open a new thread and let`s discuss about this issues.

pardon, where wrong......albania-veneta?


we cannot discuss this issue, because you will deflect it to albanians, ( not again ) when we are talking about dardanians and the E-v13 in that area

Azzurro
26-11-16, 01:08
Albania Veneta was mostly comprised of modern Montenegro lands with some Albanian lands ...............there where no Montenegro at the time as montenegrians comprised of a mix of croats, albanians, dalmatians and serbians

http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Venetian_Albania

Montenegro is a venetian word coming from monte=mountains and negro =black ............it was used as a geographical marker for sailors .

Durres is in Albania proper foundered by Greeks after they won the war against the liburnians ...........the greeks also took Corfu
founded as Epidamnos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidamnos) in the year 627 BC by ancient Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece)[6]


(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durr%C3%ABs#cite_note-6)
Butrint is the other Albanian city owned by the Venetians
known as Bouthroton was originally a town within the Adriatic Balkan region of Epirus. It was one of the major centres of the Greek tribe of the Chaonians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaonians),[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buthrotum#cite_note-4)


E-V13 is so far downstream from E-M35 that it is ridiculous to even link the 2 for any historical purposes in regards to migrational paths



yfull has the following

E-L618 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/) CTS2003 * Y3763/FGC11427 * CTS6178+55 SNPsformed 12100 ybp, TMRCA 7700 ybpinfo (https://www.yfull.com/tree-info/E-L618/)

E-L618* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618*/)

id:YF03299LVA [LV-BU]


E-V13 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/)Y3764/FGC14553 * V13/PF2211 * CTS5935/PF2235/Z1053+35 SNPsformed 7700 ybp, TMRCA 4200 ybpinfo (https://www.yfull.com/tree-info/E-V13/)

id:YF07626new
id:YF07623new
id:YF05464
id:ERS256006ITA [IT-CA]
id:ERS255990ITA [IT-CA]
id:YF04880
id:YF04752
id:YF02828
E-V13* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13*/)
E-Z38518 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z38518/) Y16728 * Y16715 * Y16730+22 SNPsformed 4200 ybp, TMRCA 600 ybpinfo (https://www.yfull.com/tree-info/E-Z38518/)

id:YF03923
id:YF03221IRL








ERS = sardianian studies
YF = members of Big Y
HG = from YHRD

ybp starts in the year 1950AD


Sile, it is very good you are using Yfull, it's the most updated Y site, it would be hard to refute the Y tree of Yfull.

LABERIA
26-11-16, 07:40
pardon, where wrong......albania-veneta?


we cannot discuss this issue, because you will deflect it to albanians, ( not again ) when we are talking about dardanians and the E-v13 in that area

Excuse me?

Sile
26-11-16, 08:13
Excuse me?

?

there was no montenegro name for the populace..........the original coastal people where under the ZETA and the other montegro part had albanians and serbs ......the inner part of Montenegro ( no coastal access ) was called HUM

Kotor ( or cattaro in bocca , venetian name ) belonged to ZETA

clearly they had to call montenegro at that time Albania-Veneta

~1670 the term Montenegro was used to incorporate ZETA with HUM under the family of: Danilo I Petrović-Njegoš (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danilo_I,_Metropolitan_of_Cetinje) (1697–1735)

officially the term Montenegro was accept by the west in :
The Principality of Montenegro (Serbian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_language): Књажевина Црнa Горa/Knjaževina Crna Gora) that existed from 13 March 1852

but I am deflecting...................the question was about Dardanians and their E-V13

LABERIA
26-11-16, 10:50
?

there was no montenegro name for the populace..........the original coastal people where under the ZETA and the other montegro part had albanians and serbs ......the inner part of Montenegro ( no coastal access ) was called HUM

Kotor ( or cattaro in bocca , venetian name ) belonged to ZETA

clearly they had to call montenegro at that time Albania-Veneta

~1670 the term Montenegro was used to incorporate ZETA with HUM under the family of: Danilo I Petrović-Njegoš (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danilo_I,_Metropolitan_of_Cetinje) (1697–1735)

officially the term Montenegro was accept by the west in :
The Principality of Montenegro (Serbian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_language): Књажевина Црнa Горa/Knjaževina Crna Gora) that existed from 13 March 1852

but I am deflecting...................the question was about Dardanians and their E-V13

Yes, as usually you deflect and start to speak about things that you don't know.
And what are going to discuss here about Chinese or the interesting story told to you by an presumed Albanian friend in Australia about bastarnae?

drroots
14-07-18, 08:18
From this map is evident that the highest concentration of E-V13 in Europe is in the region of Kosova. .

That map is very misleading due to fast changing demographics in last 1000 years in Balkan.

More specific

Well after Illyrians, there is ~200 years of Bulgarian empire. Local population has moved up north Drin river, becoming nomads back & forth, herding.
After Bulgarians, Serbs over run the entire area all the way down to Greece. In Kosovo they were the absolute majority till 1700 or later. In what's now Albania slavs were a good percentage of population. So, E-V13 couldn't have been big back then, by any means (R1a, Ia2a must have dominated).

Not to mention barbarians like Normans (50-100) years, Visigoths etc....

Then we have Venice, creating Albania Veneta for centuries, while Serbs got the northern part.
Kingdom Of Albania under Naples having middle Albania
Greeks coming and going in south Albania.

High percentage of E-V13 in Kosovo is very very recent event. And by all accounts Montenegro seems to be the spreading center....

Most likely Dardanians may have had E-v13 but so far no evidence of it or what HGs.

Gabriele Pashaj
14-07-18, 08:27
Very interesting!

kuzmosi
14-07-18, 09:48
And he is right. The EV13 formed 7600 ybp. TMRCA 5000 ybp. We don't know any tribe from this age (Calcholitic) by name. This is the age was before the indo-europeans had arrived. We don't even know where EV13 lived, where they wandered. I think the EV13 home was somewhere in today's Ukraine, Romania or Hungary.

For example the CTS9320 (like drroots or me) is much younger branch. Formed 3700 ybp. TMRCA 3000 ybp. This was the age of the war of Troy. But we don't know yet where was the CTS9320 homeland, and which cultures, tribes beared this mutation. I think this was still Central Europe. (proto-illyrians, thracians, cimmerians? Or Hallstatt celts?)

But that's just guesswork as long as there is not much more Full Genom Sequence results (BigY, WGS or other.)

Gabriele Pashaj
14-07-18, 09:53
And he is right. The EV13 formed 7600 ybp. TMRCA 5000 ybp. We don't know any tribe from this age (Calcholitic) by name. This is the age was before the indo-europeans had arrived. We don't even know where EV13 lived, where they wandered. I think the EV13 home was somewhere in today's Ukraine, Romania or Hungary.

For example the CTS9320 (like drroots or me) is much younger branch. Formed 3700 ybp. TMRCA 3000 ybp. This was the age of the war of Troy. But we don't know yet where was the CTS9320 homeland, and which cultures, tribes beared this mutation. I think this was still Central Europe. (proto-illyrians, thracians, cimmerians? Or Hallstatt celts?)

But that's just guesswork as long as there is not much more Full Genom Sequence results (BigY, WGS or other.)

So ... the people that had the ydna Ev-13 inhabited the central part of Europe and then decided to go south .... very intriguing

Johane Derite
14-07-18, 10:24
That map is very misleading due to fast changing demographics in last 1000 years in Balkan.

More specific

In Kosovo they were the absolute majority till 1700 or later.

100% fabrication. Serbs were not an absolute majority until 1700 or later.

Serb statistics and census about the Albanian population in the 90's which I lived
first hand are purely made up and absolutely fantastical let alone their medieval statistics which are pure works of fiction with absolutely no scientific credibility.

If you want a more objective figure, your best bet on any serbian source (especially if its coming from an orthodox church registry) is to assume the exact opposite of what
they claim.

kuzmosi
14-07-18, 19:37
Many people think, the Vucedol culture (5000-4200 ybp) was the ancestor of the illyrian tribes. This culture was widespread throughout the Carpathian Basin, Eastern-Austria and Moravia, not only Croatia, Bosnia and North Serbia.

When the Tumulus culture tribes attacked their descendant cultures from northwest (3300-3400 ybp) the majority of the tribes of the Carpathian Basin fled to the south, cross the Sava to the Balkan. Which historical known cultures arrived to the Balkan at this time?

The thracians originally lived in today's Ukrainian and Romanian Territory, east from the Carpathians.

So yes, they decided to go south, as later the celts, the goths, the slavic tribes, the onogur-bolgar tribes, or the cumans.

The question is: when the specific mutation formed and the last common ancestor lived (EV13, Z5017 or Z5018, CTS9320 and all other known subclades) what known cultures existed, and where. We can find our direct paternal ancestor there.

But this is a mistake to make a political question. We are not the same only with our fathers, but we are the same all of with our ancestors.

For example, I have been researching and analyzing the descendants of the 10 ancestors of my ancestors so far. And I will try to find as much as possible.

The results:
EV13-Y81971: ?
R1b-U106-S22069: germanic
R1b-U152-S8172: Hallstatt Celtic
I2a-L621-A1328: Proto-slavic, rusin
R1a-M458-YP415: Western slavic, polish
I2a-L621-Y3118: Proto-slavic, rusin
R1a-L664-S2866: western germanic
I1-L22-FGC14412: scandinavian probably varangian/viking
R1a-Z280-Not completed yet, but surely slavic
Q1b-L53-Not comleted yet, but maybe hunnic, avaric or sarmatian.

There is no hungarian among them. So then am I hungarian? Of course, absolutely yes.

Sile
14-07-18, 20:37
Yes, as usually you deflect and start to speak about things that you don't know.
And what are going to discuss here about Chinese or the interesting story told to you by an presumed Albanian friend in Australia about bastarnae?
Albania-Veneta was only in montenegro and was a term used for military and administrative areas....the Rector stayed in Kotar and the Military General in Perast .............the area was fully Dalmatian in ethnicity with only one Albanian town
According to the Dalmatian historian Luigi Paulucci (in his book Le Bocche di Cattaro nel 1810) the population of Venetian Albania, during the centuries of the Republic of Venice, was mainly Venetian speaking (approximately 66%) in the urban areas (Cattaro, Perasto, Budua, ecc..) around the "Bocche di Cattaro" (Bay of Kotor).
But in the inland areas more than half of the population was Serbo-Croatian speaking, after the first years of the eighteenth century. Paulucci wrote even that near the border with Albania there were big communities of Albanian speaking people: Ulcinj was half Albanian, one quarter Venetian and one quarter Slavic-speaking.[6]
The Term Montenegro first appeared in 1670 and was a venetian word Monte=mountains Negro=black.
The inland of montenegro according to Venetian archives had only croats and serbs.

Pip
30-07-18, 19:32
Many people think, the Vucedol culture (5000-4200 ybp) was the ancestor of the illyrian tribes. This culture was widespread throughout the Carpathian Basin, Eastern-Austria and Moravia, not only Croatia, Bosnia and North Serbia.

When the Tumulus culture tribes attacked their descendant cultures from northwest (3300-3400 ybp) the majority of the tribes of the Carpathian Basin fled to the south, cross the Sava to the Balkan. Which historical known cultures arrived to the Balkan at this time?

The thracians originally lived in today's Ukrainian and Romanian Territory, east from the Carpathians.

So yes, they decided to go south, as later the celts, the goths, the slavic tribes, the onogur-bolgar tribes, or the cumans.

The question is: when the specific mutation formed and the last common ancestor lived (EV13, Z5017 or Z5018, CTS9320 and all other known subclades) what known cultures existed, and where. We can find our direct paternal ancestor there.

But this is a mistake to make a political question. We are not the same only with our fathers, but we are the same all of with our ancestors.

For example, I have been researching and analyzing the descendants of the 10 ancestors of my ancestors so far. And I will try to find as much as possible.

The results:
EV13-Y81971: ?
R1b-U106-S22069: germanic
R1b-U152-S8172: Hallstatt Celtic
I2a-L621-A1328: Proto-slavic, rusin
R1a-M458-YP415: Western slavic, polish
I2a-L621-Y3118: Proto-slavic, rusin
R1a-L664-S2866: western germanic
I1-L22-FGC14412: scandinavian probably varangian/viking
R1a-Z280-Not completed yet, but surely slavic
Q1b-L53-Not comleted yet, but maybe hunnic, avaric or sarmatian.

There is no hungarian among them. So then am I hungarian? Of course, absolutely yes.
My best estimate for the origin of E-V13-Y81971 is Northern Romania 770 BC and that it could have moved into the South Western Balkans at any point up to the early first millennium AD.

kuzmosi
01-08-18, 21:50
Thank you Pip. But how did you estimate the date of the Y81971 origin? And the place? I think you are right. At this time we know 3 sample which is positive Y81971.

1.) my own. Küzmös family, last known ancestor born 1735. Peneszlek, Szatmar county, Hungary, greek catholic, probably rusin/ruthenian ethnicity.
2.) another Küzmös family member, l.k.a born 1845 Peneszlek, Szatmar county, Hungary (I think he is also a descendant of my ancestor born in 1735, we just could not find birth datas in the birth registers) greek catholic, probably rusin/ruthenian ethnicity
3.) Senetar family from Kentucky. l.k.a born 1870 Ivaskofalva, Bereg county, Hungary (today Ukraina) greek catholic, rusin/ruthenian ethnicity.

We have no results anywhere else in the world. So northern Romania is very close to us, but we have not connect with the Balkans.

Sile
01-08-18, 21:56
Albania-Veneta was only in montenegro and was a term used for military and administrative areas....the Rector stayed in Kotar and the Military General in Perast .............the area was fully Dalmatian in ethnicity with only one Albanian town
According to the Dalmatian historian Luigi Paulucci (in his book Le Bocche di Cattaro nel 1810) the population of Venetian Albania, during the centuries of the Republic of Venice, was mainly Venetian speaking (approximately 66%) in the urban areas (Cattaro, Perasto, Budua, ecc..) around the "Bocche di Cattaro" (Bay of Kotor).
But in the inland areas more than half of the population was Serbo-Croatian speaking, after the first years of the eighteenth century. Paulucci wrote even that near the border with Albania there were big communities of Albanian speaking people: Ulcinj was half Albanian, one quarter Venetian and one quarter Slavic-speaking.[6]
The Term Montenegro first appeared in 1670 and was a venetian word Monte=mountains Negro=black.
The inland of montenegro according to Venetian archives had only croats and serbs.

to me ...inland Montenegro with only croats and serbs would mean that Bosnians could be indigenous to the land they currently live in , especially since I have found nothing about their migrational story......croats and serbs did migrate there

Wonomyro
01-08-18, 23:51
to me ...inland Montenegro with only croats and serbs would mean that Bosnians could be indigenous to the land they currently live in , especially since I have found nothing about their migrational story......croats and serbs did migrate there

Some quick clarification might be helpful.

Present day Bosniak identity is based on Muslim faith. That is what separates them from the others.

However, the medieval Bosnians were Christians and the group which have been keeping their tradition until present are - Bosnian Croats.

On the other hand, there are hardly any genetic differences between present day Croats, Bosnian Croats and Bosniaks. The ethnic border between Bosnians and Croats in the past was never clearly identifiable by historians, if ever really existed.

Bosnian ethnonym was always related to geographical Bosnia while the Croatian name was not limited to Croatia. That is understandable as Croatian ethnonym is not derived from the name of the land.

Pip
03-08-18, 00:31
Thank you Pip. But how did you estimate the date of the Y81971 origin? And the place? I think you are right. At this time we know 3 sample which is positive Y81971.

1.) my own. Küzmös family, last known ancestor born 1735. Peneszlek, Szatmar county, Hungary, greek catholic, probably rusin/ruthenian ethnicity.
2.) another Küzmös family member, l.k.a born 1845 Peneszlek, Szatmar county, Hungary (I think he is also a descendant of my ancestor born in 1735, we just could not find birth datas in the birth registers) greek catholic, probably rusin/ruthenian ethnicity
3.) Senetar family from Kentucky. l.k.a born 1870 Ivaskofalva, Bereg county, Hungary (today Ukraina) greek catholic, rusin/ruthenian ethnicity.

We have no results anywhere else in the world. So northern Romania is very close to us, but we have not connect with the Balkans.
To extend my STRs/SNPs algorithm further based on all known data, a West Balkan origin is estimated for Z5017 and Z5016 as a whole, both of which flowered around 2,300 BC. I propose that various E-V13 people moved around within the Balkans and just North of the Balkans for at least the following 1,500 years.
I will go back further, but the calculations take time.
It would also be interesting to establish which other haplogroups would have been likely to have had a presence within E-V13 Balkan Bronze Age communities.

Pip
06-08-18, 00:10
For the expansion of E-V13, I would propose the following:
1. Hundreds of branches of V13 would have existed over a wide geographical area; nearly all would have died out. Only one branch in existence at 3,500 BC still survives today; all sustained expansion came from this branch, which I would propose originated in Eastern Croatia or Central Hungary.
2. The only significant expansions occurred in two waves - the first North Westwards into Germany at around 2,300 BC; the second Southwards across the Balkans during the second millennium BC.

With which other surviving haplogroups would such V13 have co-existed (if any)? And which haplogroups would it have encountered during its expansions?

Pip
21-08-18, 01:22
My proposal would be that E-V13 was already mixed in with various subclades of G and J2a1 as it arose in Central Europe; and that its expansion followed contact with communities containing principally R1a-M417 and R1b-U152 (Northern), and R1b-Z2106 and R1b-PF7562 (Southern). Any additional or alternative proposals?

Ownstyler
21-08-18, 06:34
My proposal would be that E-V13 was already mixed in with various subclades of G and J2a1 as it arose in Central Europe; and that its expansion followed contact with communities containing principally R1a-M417 and R1b-U152 (Northern), and R1b-Z2106 and R1b-PF7562 (Southern). Any additional or alternative proposals?

There are other alternatives: paleo-Balkan haplogroup, Ancient Greek haplogroup, etc, but first let's examine your own thought. What makes you think that is the most likely scenario?

Pip
21-08-18, 23:04
There are other alternatives: paleo-Balkan haplogroup, Ancient Greek haplogroup, etc, but first let's examine your own thought. What makes you think that is the most likely scenario?
Crunching lots of data. In a nutshell, the upstreams of E-V13, some J2a1 subclades and several G subclades seem to follow similar data patterns, both geographically and chronologically. Most European branches of these groups later appear to have withered, except for those that then (2nd & 3rd millennia BC) follow similar patterns to certain R1a and R1b subclades. Over thousands of years of development, I am sure there would also have been components received from paleo-Balkan and ancient Greek haplogroups, but these look to comprise relatively minor elements of surviving E-V13 populations. Do you think there are any other major influences or likely scenarios?

Ownstyler
22-08-18, 02:14
Crunching lots of data. In a nutshell, the upstreams of E-V13, some J2a1 subclades and several G subclades seem to follow similar data patterns, both geographically and chronologically. Most European branches of these groups later appear to have withered, except for those that then (2nd & 3rd millennia BC) follow similar patterns to certain R1a and R1b subclades. Over thousands of years of development, I am sure there would also have been components received from paleo-Balkan and ancient Greek haplogroups, but these look to comprise relatively minor elements of surviving E-V13 populations. Do you think there are any other major influences or likely scenarios?

If you throw water in the middle of a crossroad soon its gonna cover all the streets meeting there, as each passing car picks up and moves some drops along its way. So I think its likely that it spread many times over and over, with each passing migration, not necessarily only in the Bronze Age. As for the initial expansion, I'm guessing one of the Central Europe/North Balkans cultures that were later at least partially indo-europeanized might have carried it. Which E-V13 subclades are you associating with those R ones you mentioned?

Pip
23-08-18, 00:19
If you throw water in the middle of a crossroad soon its gonna cover all the streets meeting there, as each passing car picks up and moves some drops along its way. So I think its likely that it spread many times over and over, with each passing migration, not necessarily only in the Bronze Age. As for the initial expansion, I'm guessing one of the Central Europe/North Balkans cultures that were later at least partially indo-europeanized might have carried it. Which E-V13 subclades are you associating with those R ones you mentioned?
I would say that nearly all E-V13 people would have had significant admixture with R people by the end of the third millennium BC. As is also the case with R, expansion in V13 looks to have been fairly rapid and diverse by this point, making the data difficult to decipher. E-L17 is perhaps one of the clearest subclades, looking like a move of V13 Northwards into Germany, probably along with some predominantly R1b populations.

markod
05-10-18, 09:21
Apparently this sample from Moldova falsely classified as R1b was E-V13:

scy197* Glinoe Scythian 2885 - 2632 BCE XY U5a1a1

The authors ofthe paper claim the date is unreliable however.