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View Full Version : Confirmed mtDNA H in Pre-Neolithic Spain!!!



Fire Haired14
02-04-15, 23:01
Check this out. Maju deserves an apology from alot of posters, including myself. Don't forget there are several R-several HV1 RCRS mutation samples from other parts of Pre-Neolithic Europe that may be H. I wonder how these H bearing Spanish hunter gatherers compare to U5 dominated WHG autosomally.

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/44037-Ancient-DNA-in-the-Cantabrian-fringe-populations-A-mtDNA-study-from-Prehistory-to-Late-Antiquity

Power77
03-04-15, 00:21
Apparently, only Jean Manco (Jean M) who's the owner of the blog reporting on these findings, claims that the remains carrying hg H are pre-Neolithic. Personally, I remain skeptical until further investigations.

Fire Haired14
03-04-15, 00:23
Apparently, only Jean Manco (Jean M) who's the owner of the blog reporting on these findings, claims that the remains carrying hg H are pre-Neolithic. Personally, I remain skeptical until further investigations.


Here's a thread about it on Anthrogencia.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4246-19000-year-old-mt-DNA-Haplogroup-H-from-the-Franco-Cantabrian-site-of-el-Miron!!!!&p=77384#post77384

Power77
03-04-15, 00:41
Here's a thread about it on Anthrogencia.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4246-19000-year-old-mt-DNA-Haplogroup-H-from-the-Franco-Cantabrian-site-of-el-Miron!!!!&p=77384#post77384


Thanks for the link. So it is not even Jean M who's made the claim but jeanL( an even more random amateur!). It seems even Jean M is suspicious of the claim! Even though I disagree with Manco on a lot of things, I'll stand with her on this one.

Melancon
03-04-15, 13:09
So, if this were to be true...what would this suggest? That Maciamo is right on the Basque R1b theory? That Y-DNA I2 and mtdna haplogroup H go hand-in-hand in the Mesolithic?

Angela
03-04-15, 15:23
I would say wait for Paabo's analysis of the "Red Lady". I don't have much confidence in their mtDna analyses or their dating for that matter.

Let's assume for the moment that Paabo does find an "mtDna" "H". I don't think that would be out of the question for southern Europe. I think there might very well have been some movement along the Mediterranean littoral that brought some "H" there. We also have the ancient R1b find as proof that some of these haplogroups were spread very widely. The important question is, are these branches found in Spain ancestral to modern European branches? For R1b, so far, it seems not.

We'll see what the story is for mtDna "H" when Paabo's analysis comes out. As it looks now, mtDna "H" branched out into subclades and spread out from the Near East coincident with the development of agriculture. It remains to be seen if the Red Lady is "H", whether it is a dead end, or, if like the "H" in the Near East, it expanded with agriculture.

If any ancient "H" is found in Spain and furthermore is found to be ancestral to, say, "H1", perhaps some of it did indeed spread east into central Europe. Of course, these "H" carriers from Spain would still have been EEF, just like all the other farmers.

I personally don't see how it matters much either way, so I don't get all the fervor surrounding the topic. Aren't we all just supposed to be trying to figure out how it happened? What does it matter if some mtDna "H" spread out from Spain? I sometimes think there's all sorts of subtexts informing these discussions of which I'm not aware.

MOESAN
27-05-15, 23:55
just some erratic thoughts based upon partial data

Some remarksconcerning mt DNA :


The more I look atmt-DNA H1/H3 the more I think it 's old (or rather their ancestorsare for a long time in Europe. If I rely on the %s proposed byMaciamo (I thank again here for his work) I even think theyflourished seriously only when they were in Southwestern Europe, soneatly before Neolithic, maybe before plain Mesolithic. I put herethe (right?) %s of mtH1+H3 compared to total mtH. I hope that even ifpartly erroneous they could paint a close enough picture :


think theyflourished seriously only when they were in Southwestern Europe, soneatly before Neolithic, maybe before plain Mesolithic. I put herethe (right?) %s of mtH1+H3 compared to total mtH. I hope that even ifpartly erroneous they could paint a close enough picture :
Basque country isthe richer for these 2 haplo's in relative and absolute proportions –Sardinia comes near -
As a whole WesternEurope and North Europe show more than Central and Eastern Europewhich themselves show more than Southeastern Europe, Caucasus,Near-Eastern and Chuvashs.
North-Africa, whichall comprise have low if not neglictible absolute %s of mt-H shows inthe same time a middle position for relative%s ; and what ismaybe not a hazard, the closer to the richer regions is Marocco,closer to Andalusia, and Tunisia has a bit more relative %s thanAlgeria and Tunisia so closer to Sicilia, and to Sardinia – theSame for Estonia and Finland, not specifically rich for global mt-Hbut high enough for relative mt-H1/H3 %s -
This striking enoughcloseness between Southwestern Europe and Scandinavia – extremeNorth-East of Europe and some very ancient mt-DNA H in Iberia push meto think it is at first an expansion occurred after the LGM for a bigpart. In Northern Europe the LGM prevented an older human presenceand the distribution of these subhaplo's is very too much linked toWest to be put on the account of an East to West movement (look atChuvashs) – It's true my try of analysis is baed upon Maciamocompilation – in Wikipedia, they found some 14 % for UralFinns, what does not disprove my conclusion, because archeologydoes not show traces of great movements from North-East of populationEast to West in Prehistory or History until Iberia and BasqueCountry ;
Some apparentdiscrepancies : and the most of mt-H other subclades in Centraland East Europe are of East Europe (I-E Steppes?) and Neolithic NearEast origin -
Ireland is a bit lowfor relative %s even if absolute ones are not very low for Westernrange.
Belgium/Luxemburg isvery strong on every sort of % compared to the low %s in theNetherlands ; Switzerland and global Italy also are like a« stain » in West Center – at the contrary it shows ahigh enough % for other subclades of mt-H;
Other localdiscrepancies ?: Hungary and Macedonia closer to Westerners andextreme position of Albania and Romania very very poor for mt-H1+H3and at maximum for other mt-H -


As a whole Caucasusis relatively poor, as North-Africa, in absolute %s for all mt-H,poorer than Near-Eastern, except Armenia ;
some comparisonsconcerning ancient mt-DNA in some populations show that among the« other » mt-H, H2a seems more linked to EHG (NorthernRussia, Finland?), H6 more linked to first EEF (SoutheasternEuropeans, Near-Eastern) and H8 more linked to Central-South Asian(ASI ? Other ENF?)...


The mt-H1/H3 even ifprincipally expanded during LGM could also have been reinforcedduring historic movements, Atlantic megalithism + partial subsequentFunnelbeaker, and BBs and post-BBs effects (more than BBsdemography!) ; but it seems mt-H1/H3 were already wellestablished in Central Eastern France in the 4000 BC as the Gurgyremnants seem showing. For Germany I don't know if there are enoughof samples between 4000 and 2200 BC, but apparently the mt-H becamestrong enough at BBs times and it seems it would be due to encreasefor mt-H1/H3 because other mt-H certainly of Near-Eastern or Anatoliaorigin were already present in LBK populations but the totalmt-H%s stayed at lower levels than among BBs culture sepultures inother Chalcolithic sites of Germany. It is true in modern Germany andthe Netherlands the H1/H3 group is far less important but it couldvery well due to Germanic wanderings pushing off the Celtic post BBspopulations.
In the peculiar caseof Hungary we could put the high enough levels of H1/H3 on theaccount of BBS and La Tène Celts. But already in Neolithic times inHungary they were a great difference in total mt-H %s betweenTransdanubian (West) LBK : about 25 % but very few H5 andSzakàlhàt ALPC : about the half but more of H5 so... ButI have not the other subclades of mt-H for ancient Hungary.
Albania issurprising but the supposition of links with old populations ofRomania seems reinforced at this mitochondrial level ; spite anapparent great modificationamong male ligneagges in Romania, we couldsuppose their common links for mt-DNA is the neolithic inheritage ?But Albanians would have kept more ancient DNA than Romania for maleligneages ?


All that is based asalready said upon data that could be wrong at some level in someplaces, but I doubt corrections could change too much the « tableau »

MOESAN
27-05-15, 23:58
pays
mt H
mt H1+H3
H1H3 / H %

H non 1/3










Asturies
54,10






Basques
49,00
44,00
89,80

5,00


Galice
58,50
34,00
58,12

24,50


Suède
45,80
31,50
68,78

14,30


Norvège
45,70
31,50
68,93

14,20


Sardaigne
44,30
31,50
71,11

12,80


Andalousie
44,30
29,50
66,59

14,80


Espagne
44,10
28,00
63,49

16,10


Belgique/Luxembourg
44,60
27,30
61,21

17,30


Cantabriques
37,60
27,00
71,81

10,60


France
44,30
26,50
59,82

17,80


Portugal
43,90
26,00
59,23

17,90


Ecosse
44,10
25,00
56,69

19,10


Islande
37,70
23,00
61,01

14,70


Irlande
44,10
22,50
51,02

21,60


Estonie
45,80
20,00
43,67

25,80


Angleterre
44,70
20,00
44,74

24,70


Macédoine
45,00
19,00
42,22

26,00


Finlande
36,30
19,00
52,34

17,30


Autriche
44,90
16,50
36,75

28,40


Hongrie
39,20
16,50
42,09

22,70


Allemagne
44,80
16,00
35,71

28,80


Suisse
47,90
15,50
32,36

32,40


Maroc
28,10
15,50
55,16

12,60


Russie
41,20
15,00
36,41

26,20


Tchéquie
40,20
15,00
37,31

25,20


Slovénie
44,40
14,50
32,66

29,90


Pologne
43,90
14,50
33,03

29,40


Lithuanie
45,30
14,00
30,91

31,30


Pays-Bas
45,00
14,00
31,11

31,00


Croatie
41,10
13,50
32,85

27,60


Algérie
31,30
12,00
38,34

19,30


Ukraine
39,00
11,50
29,49

27,50


Tunisie
28,20
11,50
40,78

16,70


Italie
40,20
11,00
27,36

29,20


Biélo-Russie
39,10
11,00
28,13

28,10


Slovaquie
43,00
10,00
23,26

33,00


Bulgarie
41,90
9,50
22,67

32,40


Askhenazes Juifs
22,80
7,50
32,89

15,30


Liban
33,80
6,50
19,23

27,30


Grèce
40,50
6,00
14,81

34,50


Azerbadjian
23,30
6,00
25,75

17,30


Karachays-Balkars
25,20
5,50
21,83

19,70


Turquie
30,80
4,50
14,61

26,30


Roumanie
38,80
3,50
9,02

35,30


Nord-Ossètes
26,10
3,50
13,41

22,60


Tchétchènes-Ingouchs
25,80
3,50
13,57

22,30


Adyghes-Kabardins
25,60
3,50
13,67

22,10


Albanie
47,90
3,00
6,26

44,90


Tchouvaches
27,30
2,50
9,16

24,80


Arménie
29,10
2,00
6,87

27,10


Jordanie
25,20
2,00
7,94

23,20


Géorgie
19,90
1,50
7,54

18,40


Iraq
17,20
1,50
8,72

15,70


Syrie
26,20
0,00
0,00

26,20

MOESAN
28-05-15, 15:13
I red in Wikipedia that a tribe of Touareg had a very high % of mt-H1 : 61% in 129 Lybian Touareg (without H3); but concerning only a tribe it is not of too much worth because we know these people are still very patriarcal as a whole, their paterneal DNA very little variated, tribe by tribe, tracing back often to ONE ancestor, their system leading unavoidly to drift