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Orillion
19-04-15, 15:47
Hello,

Is it just me or is 23andme's website unreachable for other people too?
I've been trying to connect for a few days now and i always get a message saying there might be something wrong on their side, but website monitoring tools seem to indicate that it's up.

Are you guys having the same issue? or even extra info?

LeBrok
19-04-15, 16:57
I just logged in fine. Try different internet browser or delete cookies.
Is it possible that French government is blocking it? Some people say that they are against genetic test.

Maciamo
19-04-15, 17:12
I cannot access the site with Firefox anymore, but it works with Chrome and Opera.

Sile
20-04-15, 07:45
I can only connect with firefox if i stop my security for 1 min.............once I am in, it works fine

apparently the certificates fro 23andme do not comply anymore with most security packages

Orillion
22-04-15, 18:39
I'm using Firefox, so i guess it's a security package issue. Gonna try with another browser.

I've never heard of any blocking of this kind of website. Genetic testing without informed consent (i.e. you can't be tested for a genetic disease without your written consent) is illegal, and 23andme/FTDNA/other testing is considered illegal as well because there's no medical prescription (which is considered illegal practice of medicine, in the sense that the information they give is complex and can be misleading, thus the need for a doctor whose role is to explain the results - debatable, but that's what the lawmakers had in mind at the time). Things were likely to evolve towards a more open attitude regarding genetic testing, if only retarded anti-gay movements from a two years ago hadn't managed to block every public debate about any topic related to society. Now we're stuck with obsolete laws for a few more years.

Anyways, thank you for your answers!

Maciamo
23-04-15, 07:42
Genetic testing without informed consent (i.e. you can't be tested for a genetic disease without your written consent) is illegal, and 23andme/FTDNA/other testing is considered illegal as well because there's no medical prescription (which is considered illegal practice of medicine, in the sense that the information they give is complex and can be misleading, thus the need for a doctor whose role is to explain the results - debatable, but that's what the lawmakers had in mind at the time). Things were likely to evolve towards a more open attitude regarding genetic testing, if only retarded anti-gay movements from a two years ago hadn't managed to block every public debate about any topic related to society. Now we're stuck with obsolete laws for a few more years.


Illegal where ? Every country (and state) has its own laws. There is no universal law requiring individuals to get an MD's approval to test their DNA. Personally I believe that knowing one's own DNA is one of the most fundamental human rights. The only country in the world that I know which infringes this right is France, by banning all DNA tests (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28882-Ordering-a-DNA-test-in-France-is-a-crime-punishable-by-heavy-fines-and-jail-time), even for research.

I don't think it is even debatable whether people should get a medical prescription or a doctor's interpretation of the results. I have talked with dozens of medical doctors (GP and specialists) about genetics, and all of them were completely ignorant on the subject*. That is because genetics is almost not taught at all in medical school (here at least), and even if it was, most doctors above the age of 35 would be completely out of date with all the development of the last few years. After all the first human genome was only sequenced in 2003, and serious research started in the last 7 years or so, once it became much cheaper to sequence genomes.

* excluding specialised geneticists, but there are very few of them here (less than 1% of all MD's).

Sile
23-04-15, 09:55
Today's mini Firefox patch has fixed the 23andme logging issues...............for me at least

Orillion
23-04-15, 23:16
The only country in the world that I know which infringes this right is France, by banning all DNA tests (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28882-Ordering-a-DNA-test-in-France-is-a-crime-punishable-by-heavy-fines-and-jail-time), even for research.

I was talking about France specifically, sorry if i wasn't clear. And no, not all DNA tests are banned: as long as they're justified for medical care or research, they're perfectly fine and are actually widely done (and i happen to prescribe some of them myself). It's just tests like 23andme's and the like that fall into the grey zone.

I'm absolutely not trying to justify some obsolete French laws, even regarding the need for a MD to interpret results (even though we do have solid basics in genetics in med school). But people are entitled to their own opinions, and some of them obviously don't agree with us, that's why i said that it was debatable. Let's not forget the FDA's forbidding of letting 23andme provide health results as part of their genetic testing last year: so there definitely is a matter for debate here (and this time i'm not talking about a particular country), if only to definite a legal context for this affordable genome sequecing, which is bound to become more and more widespread.


Today's mini Firefox patch has fixed the 23andme logging issues...............for me at least

For me as well, yay!

Maciamo
24-04-15, 07:35
I was talking about France specifically, sorry if i wasn't clear. And no, not all DNA tests are banned: as long as they're justified for medical care or research, they're perfectly fine and are actually widely done (and i happen to prescribe some of them myself). It's just tests like 23andme's and the like that fall into the grey zone.

They may be regularly done by some doctors, but, if a DNA test wasn't court-ordered, it is illegal nonetheless if you read properly the article of the French laws which stipulates that it is punishable to divulge ANY information regarding a person's genetic print. This also includes blood type, HLA type, etc. I think that the lawmakers were too stupid to understand just how far-reaching the implications of such wording was. Technically, according to the law, you can sue anybody in France, even doctors and researchers who perform or request any genetic test without a mandate from a court of law. But of course there are plenty of stupid laws (http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/international/france) in every country that are never applied.


I'm absolutely not trying to justify some obsolete French laws, even regarding the need for a MD to interpret results (even though we do have solid basics in genetics in med school). But people are entitled to their own opinions, and some of them obviously don't agree with us, that's why i said that it was debatable. Let's not forget the FDA's forbidding of letting 23andme provide health results as part of their genetic testing last year: so there definitely is a matter for debate here (and this time i'm not talking about a particular country), if only to definite a legal context for this affordable genome sequecing, which is bound to become more and more widespread.

I am sorry but it is not a matter of opinion that medical doctors who aren't geneticists are unqualified to interpret genetic results. That's a fact. You may as well ask your plumber or your lawyer.

Orillion
25-04-15, 15:14
Ok, obviously you know more about France, its medical practice and its laws and regulations than me (despite me being a doctor in said France, being born and raised in that country, and working in a university pediatric hospital where DNA testing is routinely made, and me being also involved in some if this testing, and also having a few notions about how laws are made and interpreted). So i won't even begin to try to argue, because it seems completely pointless to try to give some nuances to the way you're perceiving how things are in that country.

I can't help but be speechless when i'm reading things like "it's illegal to divulge information about someone's blood type". Speechless.

This thread has completely strayed away from its original course anyway, so no need to go on here.

Maciamo
26-04-15, 09:28
Ok, obviously you know more about France, its medical practice and its laws and regulations than me (despite me being a doctor in said France, being born and raised in that country, and working in a university pediatric hospital where DNA testing is routinely made, and me being also involved in some if this testing, and also having a few notions about how laws are made and interpreted). So i won't even begin to try to argue, because it seems completely pointless to try to give some nuances to the way you're perceiving how things are in that country.

I can't help but be speechless when i'm reading things like "it's illegal to divulge information about someone's blood type". Speechless.

This thread has completely strayed away from its original course anyway, so no need to go on here.

If by speechless you mean that you don't believe me then you obviously haven't read the French law in question (http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do?cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006070719&idArticle=LEGIARTI000024325278&dateTexte=20130207).

Article 226-28



Modifié par LOI n°2011-814 du 7 juillet 2011 - art. 4 (http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexteArticle.do;jsessionid=EA1F4ACF747F82511 079653988D88D43.tpdila19v_2?cidTexte=JORFTEXT00002 4323102&idArticle=LEGIARTI000024324017&dateTexte=20130207&categorieLien=id#LEGIARTI000024324017)


Le fait de rechercher l'identification par ses empreintes génétiques d'une personne en dehors des cas prévus à l'article 16-11 (http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do;jsessionid=EA1F4ACF747F825110 79653988D88D43.tpdila19v_2?cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006 070721&idArticle=LEGIARTI000006419307&dateTexte=&categorieLien=cid)du code civil ou en dehors d'une mesure d'enquête ou d'instruction diligentée lors d'une procédure de vérification d'un acte de l'état civil entreprise par les autorités diplomatiques ou consulaires dans le cadre des dispositions de l'article L. 111-6 (http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do;jsessionid=EA1F4ACF747F825110 79653988D88D43.tpdila19v_2?cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006 070158&idArticle=LEGIARTI000006334949&dateTexte=&categorieLien=cid)du code de l'entrée et du séjour des étrangers et du droit d'asile est puni d'un an d'emprisonnement ou de 15 000 euros d'amende.
Est puni des mêmes peines le fait de divulguer des informations relatives à l'identification d'une personne par ses empreintes génétiques ou de procéder à l'examen des caractéristiques génétiques d'une personne ou à l'identification d'une personne par ses empreintes génétiques sans être titulaire de l'agrément prévu à l'article L. 1131-3 (http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do;jsessionid=EA1F4ACF747F825110 79653988D88D43.tpdila19v_2?cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006 072665&idArticle=LEGIARTI000006685940&dateTexte=&categorieLien=cid)du code de la santé publique et de l'autorisation prévue à l'article L. 1131-2-1 (http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do;jsessionid=EA1F4ACF747F825110 79653988D88D43.tpdila19v_2?cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006 072665&idArticle=LEGIARTI000024324108&dateTexte=&categorieLien=cid) du même code.


The part in bold also applies to blood types, HLA types, or any other genetic characteristic. If you have performed, requested, or even simply divulged information about a patient DNA (even just blood type) to anyone, even to the patient himself/herself, according to this law you should be fined 15000€ and imprisoned for a year (note that the sentence is predetermined and cumulates a fine and prison term).

As I said above it is never applied in practice because the law is beyond stupid and would prevent the normal practice of medicine. But the fact remains that the law exists and that is what the law says. There is no ambiguity whatsoever about the fact that blood types are encoded in DNA and therefore qualify as genetic characteristic.

It's not because you studied medicine in France that you know French law. FYI, I also have a (bio)medical background and many MD's among my relatives, and relatives in France. Law is not taught in medical school, and lawmakers are usually ignorant of medicine, biology and genetics. This is how such absurd situations can develop, in which a law, by its overly broad wording, would prevent the practice of medicine and a big part of scientific research if it was applied.