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Alan
22-04-15, 01:15
Reconstructed faces of the ancestors of the Circassians 2,500 years ago
Scientists have graphically reconstructed the appearance of the ancestors of the Circassians (proto-Circassians), the inhabitants of the Northwest Caucasus on the north-eastern Black Sea coast in ancient times, based on sculls found in the burial ground in the Lobanov Depression, south of Anapa, near Little Utrish. The excavations were made in 1984 and 1990, and they revealed 15 stone tombs with human remains that are dated to the VI-II centuries BC. The tombs are oriented in an east-west axis, with the heads positioned to the east, which is quite typical of the funeral rites of the population of the region.
Reconstruction of facial features of a number of sculls found in burial grounds in Misxako, near Novorossiysk, and in the Ts'emez Valley, Novorossiysk, was also carried out.
Source: A. V. Dmitriev and A. A. Malyshev, "Sepulchers of the VI-II Centuries BC in the Depression at the Estuary of the Labanov", Armavir Local History Museum, Issue 5, Armavir-Moscow, 1999.


https://scontent-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/1932256_729420853768848_2009859510_n.jpg?oh=7b17c3 9bef1875ec209b8e36845c2e46&oe=55DD9790



https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/1920174_729421073768826_1319357556_n.jpg?oh=df9a55 55b1dd09adce846e48f888e6cf&oe=55A4CAF4&__gda__=1436474482_4ad281d20cb2fe42b75594db133286a 7







https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/1011076_729421130435487_379607335_n.jpg?oh=50c2ccf 88de96455cb07f88c3b5f15fd&oe=55D59B4B&__gda__=1436628936_6cbfd71d3af96139e2b7ebdba348260 ehttps://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/1982194_729421330435467_642095303_n.jpg?oh=c82db14 6fa03521346d88015e40ff8b1&oe=55D8546D&__gda__=1441120740_501fd752ecfd640f750fd87ed43f5a2 b








https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1920414_729421273768806_1326838799_n.jpg?oh=6fbf30 565b259545962e735b65fd0a27&oe=55DAE915&__gda__=1440914618_4c931afe9a36e20c95823a91f3d4ee5 1

Alan
22-04-15, 01:18
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1959777_729421197102147_1107022842_n.jpg?oh=035178 cf9076d46eeb4295c22ce86e23&oe=55D7E68B&__gda__=1436608292_a6b8f9b932991c2b69c4bd9818d6201 1


https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/1625480_729421230435477_1070317884_n.jpg?oh=42f80a 05d33c8c232305a10ff1af6a8e&oe=55CF610D&__gda__=1440600890_479f91a7e4c0f3f3ea6025c7b56d146 b

Alan
22-04-15, 01:21
Archeological sites
https://scontent-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/1920372_729421737102093_1308753840_n.jpg?oh=433e56 444e019d1cea652c713cdf3eff&oe=559F2D96https://scontent-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/1508183_729421817102085_57422390_n.jpg?oh=7044da9b 51e0dc44c40c83f94fab7e39&oe=55E37DC3https://scontent-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/10007472_729421870435413_2067121160_n.jpg?oh=34233 d4a9f97049d0555a92d50a18932&oe=559B8A8Chttps://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/p180x540/1977285_729422040435396_413840144_n.jpg?oh=fcb6f01 01e62789296600f45b6885b87&oe=559988A4&__gda__=1436543560_24f071bc4c538b4274b650009b01776 6https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/1653574_729421947102072_1116740539_n.jpg?oh=69ae33 9bf974cc5b2dfb5f5abe2965d5&oe=559F606E&__gda__=1440726973_7f4437d307ec1817445a4541e35dac1 b

LeBrok
22-04-15, 03:46
Looking at these faces, they are quite mixed. We have some facial traits from Near Eastern Farmers, of vertical foreheads and vertical noses. However none, with Greek classical nose. There are also skulls with very slanted forehead and pronounced eyebrows, and low roots/sticking out noses. Traits more common in Northern Euro-Asiatic peoples, and ancient hunter gatherers. I'd say, I see two distinct phenotype, two different populations mixing together.

Alan
22-04-15, 04:32
Looking at these faces, they are quite mixed. We have some facial traits from Near Eastern Farmers, of vertical foreheads and vertical noses. However none, with Greek classical nose. There are also skulls with very slanted forehead and pronounced eyebrows, and low roots/sticking out noses. Traits more common in Northern Euro-Asiatic peoples, and ancient hunter gatherers. I'd say, I see two distinct phenotype, two different populations mixing together.



EEF farmers+ HG

I would say the first lady has more of a "Greek" nose. The other have the "Roman nose". Quite a suprise for me the number of "snubnosed" individuals.

Mars
22-04-15, 18:23
Looking at these faces, they are quite mixed. We have some facial traits from Near Eastern Farmers, of vertical foreheads and vertical noses. However none, with Greek classical nose. There are also skulls with very slanted forehead and pronounced eyebrows, and low roots/sticking out noses. Traits more common in Northern Euro-Asiatic peoples, and ancient hunter gatherers. I'd say, I see two distinct phenotype, two different populations mixing together.
I think it was a common process in that area. Cavalli-Sforza stated something similar about the proto-indoeuropeans: "It is clear that, genetically speaking, peoples of the Kurgan steppe descended at least in part from people of the Middle Eastern Neolithic who immigrated there from Turkey."

Alan
22-04-15, 22:11
I think it was a common process in that area. Cavalli-Sforza stated something similar about the proto-indoeuropeans: "It is clear that, genetically speaking, peoples of the Kurgan steppe descended at least in part from people of the Middle Eastern Neolithic who immigrated there from Turkey."


Not a big suprise. North Caucasus is part of the Yamna comple. And Yamna cluster on fst distance maps in between North Caucasians, Udmurts/Mordovians, Russians with a slight leaning towards Central Asians (I think ancient Central Asians would have been as close to Yamna as the other listed groups).

Alan
22-04-15, 22:17
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1959777_729421197102147_1107022842_n.jpg?oh=035178 cf9076d46eeb4295c22ce86e23&oe=55D7E68B&__gda__=1436608292_a6b8f9b932991c2b69c4bd9818d6201 1



This reconstruction on paper has very similar features to that Yamna reconstruction in bust form. Some facial features are dependend on artistic freedom. Diffrent artist will intepret some different features. What however is mostly accurate is the cranial form, cephalic index. nose and ear forms.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2b/Yamna_cultdure.jpg

Angela
22-04-15, 22:26
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1959777_729421197102147_1107022842_n.jpg?oh=035178 cf9076d46eeb4295c22ce86e23&oe=55D7E68B&__gda__=1436608292_a6b8f9b932991c2b69c4bd9818d6201 1



This reconstruction on paper has very similar features to that Yamna reconstruction in bust form. Some facial features are dependend on artistic freedom. Diffrent artist will intepret some different features. What however is mostly accurate is the cranial form, cephalic index. nose and ear forms.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2b/Yamna_cultdure.jpg

He looks like a Roman to me.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7215/7010175361_d137dfa837_z.jpg

Alan
22-04-15, 23:36
He looks like a Roman to me.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7215/7010175361_d137dfa837_z.jpg

Which one do you mean? The Circassian dude or the Yamna? I think both look "Roman" imo. As I said planely white busts will facially look somehow different from drawn reconstructions.

The Roman bust has slightly shorter face.

LeBrok
23-04-15, 04:26
Perhaps more like Emperor Constantine, born in Balkans.
http://www.imgbox.de/users/6opuc/ConstantineBustCapitolinirgtbgtrb.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1959777_729421197102147_1107022842_n.jpg?oh=035178 cf9076d46eeb4295c22ce86e23&oe=55D7E68B&__gda__=1436608292_a6b8f9b932991c2b69c4bd9818d6201 1

MOESAN
23-04-15, 15:56
Reconstructed faces of the ancestors of the Circassians 2,500 years ago
Scientists have graphically reconstructed the appearance of the ancestors of the Circassians (proto-Circassians), the inhabitants of the Northwest Caucasus on the north-eastern Black Sea coast in ancient times, based on sculls found in the burial ground in the Lobanov Depression, south of Anapa, near Little Utrish. The excavations were made in 1984 and 1990, and they revealed 15 stone tombs with human remains that are dated to the VI-II centuries BC. The tombs are oriented in an east-west axis, with the heads positioned to the east, which is quite typical of the funeral rites of the population of the region.
Reconstruction of facial features of a number of sculls found in burial grounds in Misxako, near Novorossiysk, and in the Ts'emez Valley, Novorossiysk, was also carried out.
Source: A. V. Dmitriev and A. A. Malyshev, "Sepulchers of the VI-II Centuries BC in the Depression at the Estuary of the Labanov", Armavir Local History Museum, Issue 5, Armavir-Moscow, 1999.


https://scontent-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/1932256_729420853768848_2009859510_n.jpg?oh=7b17c3 9bef1875ec209b8e36845c2e46&oe=55DD9790



https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/1920174_729421073768826_1319357556_n.jpg?oh=df9a55 55b1dd09adce846e48f888e6cf&oe=55A4CAF4&__gda__=1436474482_4ad281d20cb2fe42b75594db133286a 7







https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/1011076_729421130435487_379607335_n.jpg?oh=50c2ccf 88de96455cb07f88c3b5f15fd&oe=55D59B4B&__gda__=1436628936_6cbfd71d3af96139e2b7ebdba348260 ehttps://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/1982194_729421330435467_642095303_n.jpg?oh=c82db14 6fa03521346d88015e40ff8b1&oe=55D8546D&__gda__=1441120740_501fd752ecfd640f750fd87ed43f5a2 b








https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1920414_729421273768806_1326838799_n.jpg?oh=6fbf30 565b259545962e735b65fd0a27&oe=55DAE915&__gda__=1440914618_4c931afe9a36e20c95823a91f3d4ee5 1
I 've always the same bad impressions when I look at these reconstructions (all of them, for the most)
the peri-mouth and nasal reconstructions are always hazardous, even surely false!
the 4° crania is confusing because, as some other times, the lateral and the frontal views have not the same angle: angle is of great importance when rating features
in true life, the most of the populations with flat upper nose bridge associated to a protuding middle nose show on life short enough fleshy snubnoses and not so big long noses as in these reconstructions - only with crossings with 'mediteranean' noses (and even 'nordic' ones, but less), we find the same bone profile but associated with a long flesh nose turned downwards and in this case the profile line of the nose incurved itself downwards and does not keep on protuding straight forwards: the nose I describe is common enough among Armenians but not only -
MORE GENERALLY HERE: I see more than 2 types, because already I see a more 'cromagnoid' type (first, a woman) and a more 'brünnoid' type (thrid, woman too) - the fourth shows an evolution, from one or two of these primal types, on the way to 'mediterranean' giving something close to the 'long barrows type'(so not by force a new crossing with 'modern 'mediterranean' ); all the way this result has a very uncommon high protuding occiput and not the classical 'mediterranean' occipital "chignon".
So thiese proto-Circassians were well mixed already. I hope we shall have more crania to discuss the matter
&: the jaw of the first wife (my cromagnoid) HAS BEEN BADLY RECONSTRUCTED UPON ALMOST NOTHING / I THINK IT COULD HAVE BEEN BROADER

MOESAN
24-04-15, 00:08
when I speak of 'long-barrows' type here I speak of the skull only, because the mean of the known 'long barrows types faces were shorter and broader (surely some crossing with the 'cromagnoid-old mediterraneans' of the Atlantic shores; but we know Coon saw great ressemblance in the skull profile of 'L-B's with the most of Sumerians of Al Ubaid - &: the less erased traces of 'L-B' influence today in West are found among british People, the most in Wales.

MOESAN
24-04-15, 00:20
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1959777_729421197102147_1107022842_n.jpg?oh=035178 cf9076d46eeb4295c22ce86e23&oe=55D7E68B&__gda__=1436608292_a6b8f9b932991c2b69c4bd9818d6201 1


https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/1625480_729421230435477_1070317884_n.jpg?oh=42f80a 05d33c8c232305a10ff1af6a8e&oe=55CF610D&__gda__=1440600890_479f91a7e4c0f3f3ea6025c7b56d146 b


the first skull is surprising: it seems showing an unachieved 'dinaricizating' process, armenoid-like to speak as ancients; cranial deformation ? or true evolution? because cranial deformations (different) occurred in History-
very variated skulls indeed, even the inferior jaws are very different one from another: a melting pot, already?

MOESAN
24-04-15, 23:47
Which one do you mean? The Circassian dude or the Yamna? I think both look "Roman" imo. As I said planely white busts will facially look somehow different from drawn reconstructions.

The Roman bust has slightly shorter face.

1) I rely very more on this Roman statue than upon the hazardous ancient Circassians reconstructions
2) this Roman is surely not the sole type found among old Romans but it seems this type was common enough
3) if reliable, it show a dominance 'alpine domin

MOESAN
24-04-15, 23:58
1) I rely very more on this Roman statue than upon the hazardous ancient Circassians reconstructions
2) this Roman is surely not the sole type found among old Romans but it seems this type was common enough
3) if reliable, it show a dominance 'alpine dominant (of 'cromagnoid' extraction apparently) - without too evident 'mediterranean' influence of any kind - maybe the nose is a bit big and inclined (maybe the only 'mediterranean' slight influence?), but it show a snub tendancy, a splitted "potatoe" tip, I think without proof, of a 'cromagnoid' inheritage, marked too among 'borreby's but slimest among achieved 'alpines' -

this kind of types would have had ancestors in the Occidental Alps, and been send southwards by Ligurians or Ligurianized people and later by Gallic Celts and, less densely, by Italics ?- a basic component among French and Italian people (and some Swiss and German and Walloon people)

MOESAN
25-04-15, 00:07
The third skull (female according to reconstruction) is strange for me, with a receding frontal very surprising for a woman - without being very marked I wonder if it could not show some light 'mongoloid' influences (some of the Huns crania were very brutal, as some of the Avars, what is uncommon among the most of today 'mongoloid' of any kind - just my interrogation...

Mars
25-04-15, 00:55
1) I rely very more on this Roman statue than upon the hazardous ancient Circassians reconstructions
2) this Roman is surely not the sole type found among old Romans but it seems this type was common enough
3) if reliable, it show a dominance 'alpine dominant (of 'cromagnoid' extraction apparently) - without too evident 'mediterranean' influence of any kind - maybe the nose is a bit big and inclined (maybe the only 'mediterranean' slight influence?), but it show a snub tendancy, a splitted "potatoe" tip, I think without proof, of a 'cromagnoid' inheritage, marked too among 'borreby's but slimest among achieved 'alpines' -

this kind of types would have had ancestors in the Occidental Alps, and been send southwards by Ligurians or Ligurianized people and later by Gallic Celts and, less densely, by Italics ?- a basic component among French and Italian people (and some Swiss and German and Walloon people)
Roman bust reminds me italian actor Luca Zingaretti
http://images.style.it/Storage/Assets/Crops/70771/112/80411/il-commissario-montalbano-luca-zingaretti_650x447.jpg
http://static.rbcasting.com/0365656-il-commissario-montalbano-Luca-Zingaretti-foto-di-Fabrizio-Di-Giulio-20131.jpg

Angela
25-04-15, 02:05
Roman bust reminds me italian actor Luca Zingaretti
http://images.style.it/Storage/Assets/Crops/70771/112/80411/il-commissario-montalbano-luca-zingaretti_650x447.jpg
http://static.rbcasting.com/0365656-il-commissario-montalbano-Luca-Zingaretti-foto-di-Fabrizio-Di-Giulio-20131.jpg

I agree. Zingaretti looks very modern Roman to me, too, and he is, isn't he? I also might have said Emilia Romagna if I didn't know. I've never thought he was a particularly good choice in terms of phenotype for such a very Sicilian character. Am I wrong? Will our Sicilians be angry at me for saying that? :)

I love him and I love the series. Luckily, a lot of the episodes are available on you tube.

This is a profile view. It hadn't registered on me that he is light eyed. He definitely rocks the bald look. :)
http://www.firenzemadeintuscany.com/media/luca-zingaretti-1020-LCLJQZKE.jpg

MOESAN
25-04-15, 21:24
Roman bust reminds me italian actor Luca Zingaretti
http://images.style.it/Storage/Assets/Crops/70771/112/80411/il-commissario-montalbano-luca-zingaretti_650x447.jpg
http://static.rbcasting.com/0365656-il-commissario-montalbano-Luca-Zingaretti-foto-di-Fabrizio-Di-Giulio-20131.jpg

Thanks Angela -
according to me (and I shrae my proper analysis!) it shows italians are far to be as a whole a true 'mediterranean' people in the anthropologic sense-
and we have to reconsider the autosomales definitions: we saw that before: I wrote about my doubts about the "pure mediterranean" aspect of Ötzi face and skull, and already some autosomales assignations of Neolithic people of Europe has seen their PURE EEF part decreasing by new analysis:
whatever the thruth, it shows the relativity of autosomals precision at the present stage of our knowledge. That said, I find the today autosomals

MOESAN
25-04-15, 21:25
Oh!
... the today autosomals DIFFERENT LEVELS of analysis are nevertheless of some utility, I don' t deny it
sorry for the cut off!

hamko257
02-08-15, 04:15
Now that is cool!