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Angela
02-05-15, 00:29
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0125521

"An intense debate concerning the nature and mode of Neolithic transition in Europe has long received much attention. Recent publications of paleogenetic analyses focusing on ancient European farmers from Central Europe or the Iberian Peninsula have greatly contributed to this debate, providing arguments in favor of major migrations accompanying European Neolithization and highlighting noticeable genetic differentiation between farmers associated with two archaeologically defined migration routes: the Danube valley and the Mediterranean Sea. The aim of the present study was to fill a gap with the first paleogenetic data of Neolithic settlers from a region (France) where the two great currents came into both direct and indirect contact with each other. To this end, we analyzed the Gurgy 'Les Noisats' group, an Early/Middle Neolithic necropolis in the southern part of the Paris Basin. Interestingly, the archaeological record from this region highlighted a clear cultural influence from the Danubian cultural sphere but also notes exchanges with the Mediterranean cultural area. To unravel the processes implied in these cultural exchanges, we analyzed 102 individuals and obtained the largest Neolithic mitochondrial gene pool so far (39 HVS-I mitochondrial sequences and haplogroups for 55 individuals) from a single archaeological site from the Early/Middle Neolithic period. Pairwise FST values, haplogroup frequencies and shared informative haplotypes were calculated and compared with ancient and modern European and Near Eastern populations. These descriptive analyses provided patterns resulting from different evolutionary scenarios; however, the archaeological data available for the region suggest that the Gurgy group was formed through equivalent genetic contributions of farmer descendants from the Danubian and Mediterranean Neolithization waves. However, these results, that would constitute the most ancient genetic evidence of admixture between farmers from both Central and Mediterranean migration routes in the European Neolithization debate, are subject to confirmation through appropriate model-based approaches."

The first highlighted statement is puzzling: where do they get that? You wonder how much they keep up with the reading. Everything seems to indicate that the Neolithic farmers all left from northern Syria/Southwestern Turkey. The route was then toward the Greek Islands It was only then that one group went west along the Med, and another went overland. Some variation in mtDna lines doesn't change that.

From the discussion....

" However, the important genetic distance measured between Gurgy and hunter-gatherer groups clearly contrasts with the genetic similarities observed between Gurgy and Early Neolithic farmers from Central and Southern Europe. "

These are the sequences:
U lineages:
U (1)
U5 (3)
U5b (2)

V (2)

H lineages
H (3)
H1 (7)
H3 (3)

J lineages
J (2)
J1 (2)
J2 (1)

N1a (3)

K (7)

T (1)

X lineages
X (1)
X2b (1)

bicicleur
02-05-15, 10:04
To this end, we analyzed the Gurgy 'Les Noisats' group, an Early/Middle Neolithic necropolis in the southern part of the Paris Basin. Interestingly, the archaeological record from this region highlighted a clear cultural influence from the Danubian cultural sphere but also notes exchanges with the Mediterranean cultural area.

The first highlighted statement is puzzling: where do they get that? You wonder how much they keep up with the reading. Everything seems to indicate that the Neolithic farmers all left from northern Syria/Southwestern Turkey. The route was then toward the Greek Islands It was only then that one group went west along the Med, and another went overland. Some variation in mtDna lines doesn't change that.



there were 2 distinct neolithic groups entering Greece :
- farmers arrived in Thesaly (and Bulgaria) +/- 6800 BC who were ancestral to Starcevo-Koros and later LBK culture ; IMO they came from mainland Anatolia (cfr Catal Hoyuk and other settlements)
- cardiumware fishermen from the shores of southern Anotolia and the Levant who arrived +/- 6400 BC in Corfu and Epiros and spread further, first into the Adriatic Sea and to Sardegna and later into the western Mediterranean

we know both groups were genetically related, their main component in Y-DNA is G2a2
however we know little about the subclades and estimated TMRCA for G2a2 is 16800 years http://www.yfull.com/tree/G2a2/
so both groups could have split 8000 years before arrival in Greece
possibly, in Greece both groups mixed partially (cardiumware would show some influences from Thesaly), but Starcevo culture was quite distinct from cardiumware

during their journey across Europe along 2 seperate roads, they would have mixed with different tribes (e.g. I2a1a1-M26 on the western Mediterranean route) and genetic distance between both groups would have increased again before meeting in northern France

there is of course, no solid proof for that, just showing the possibilities ..

that being said, I doubt this kind of studies will make us much wiser

MOESAN
17-05-15, 12:53
I wait for more precise (higher redolution) results but I don't see why this kind of studies (at least the human material stutied) would be useless -
archeology says a culture (Chassean) move from Mediterranean got up northwards in France after Cardial, surely parlty based on it, along Rhöne and Saône valleys, until Switzerland places and farther in North - classical anthropology in SOM (so, later: Late Neol.) saw or thought seeing (but I rather rely on it) new types among the archaic type of N-E France W-Germany (look at Loschbour), new 'mediterranean' subtype well distinct from the so called 'danubian' (the type so present among "Rubanés" post LBK people) whose somones arrived until Normandy in Neolithic and were still there until gaulish times. the realtive closeness of thoses new types (# "Rubanés") with some people of the time in Sardinia makes sensible a southern origin: after meeting in NW-Bourgogne SE-Parisian Bassin with continental neolithic people of Danubian origin (farther origin in Center Anatolia) a genetic position between "Danubians" and "Neolithic Iberians" (without speaking of different Mesolithic background in seldom crossings) of the people of Gurgy is not astonishing... Wikipedia mentions economic exchanges (raw materials) in typical Chassean with Sardinia, by the way...

MOESAN
17-05-15, 12:57
I would be glad to have Y-SNPs ... if possible

MOESAN
22-05-15, 23:04
Gurgy, proximitybetween Neolithic populations in Europe and mt-DNA


I had posted aboutthe Gurgy discoveries to mark I was not too amazed by the conclusionof this study finding the Franch Yonne Neolithic population closer toother Neolithic populations of Europe -spite a bit of crossing –and almost halfway between the Cardial Iberian populations and theLBK Central Europe ones. It was a superficial analysis of mine, whatdoes not contradict my first statement about southern intruders inSOM culture.
When I saw the highlevel of mt-H among them, what is often the case among IberianNeolithic populations, I asked myself if the closeness to Iberianpopulations cited in the survey was not for the most the shared highlevels of mt-H. Because I'm not persuaded the so high « neolithical »imput in them (and in Iberians) is a genuine neolithical one.There have been found 20 mt-H : 36 % with 18 % ofmt-H1 and >7 % of mt-H3, plus the 20 mt U : 36 %with 8 % of mt-U5, 2 % only of mt-U4 ; I take apartthe 20 % of mt-K. All that could make over 33 % ofMesolithic mt-DNA, surely more than among LBK pioneers. Nevertheless,let aside the percentages, the medium-joining-network does not showmore links to Iberia than to Central Europe concerning mt-H... it'strue I have not the detail concerning the Central Europe mt-Hcomposition. Has these mt-H influenced the diagnostic of« neolithisism » ?; I think mt-H1/H3 ore their« formothers » are old enough in Iberia and SouthwesternEurope and were absorbed by Cardial males rather than carried bythem. The old presence of mt-H in Iberia (principally Western, asshown by surveys about the ancient limits between Cantabricas andBasque country, this last having mt-U5 for the most when Cantabricasseem having received lately mt-H from Asturias) and the moderndistribution of mt-H1/H3 surprisingly strong in Northern Europe anduntil Finland does not plaid for Near-Eastern neolithical origin, noreven for a Southeastern Europe origin. Some serious survey discardedthe Cantabrico-Basque region as a departure point of hugerecolonization of Northeastern Europe after the LGM, based upon lackof variance in northern Iberia. Some of the mt-H1 hotspots seem localdevelopments. I would say the variance is also a question or number,so does not exactly show everytime the point of origin. So I couldimagine a recolonization from Western Europe, more from France thafrom Iberia, and at low levels because of rude conditions, before adensification of population later with Neolithicacculturation. A return from North-East at I-Eans times is maybe notto exclude for some ethnies? A bit acrobatic because Scandinaviahas more than Germany or the Netherlands more concerned by I-Eansfirst introgressions ! Need more details about subclades inevery country. The strong presence in Russia is also a kind ofproblem ? But we see also Y-I1 far in East too, seeminglypre-Germanic, so attested West-to-East ancient moves. A remote originin East or South-East is probable but the way to West Europe was maidlong before the Neolithic revolution, I think.
I don't know ifwe'll have an aDNA result about these Gurgy people, it would beinteresting.


& : by thefact as pointed out in some blogs (I think in « For what theywere we are ») the mt-H presence in Europe largely predates theBB period (even If I think BBs and later Celts helped to spread it orto level it in some regions) and could have been put in move morethan a time, by Cardial males and more densily by the firstly coastalMegalithers whose moves can be traced if what I red is true from fromNorth Sea to Scandinavia and from Central Atlantic to SouthwesternGermany via the Loire vale, one of the roads later taken by BBs too.


It is not thevery topic here but I think the metals ages and the male patriarcalway to conquire lands is now proved - by studies of distributions anddatations of Y-SNPs and the distributions of mt-DNA hplo's, lackingsoo much neat differences - that place to place matings and tribesprogressions putting in move the whole clan and so the foreign« acquired » wives have contributed to an almost completeerosion of previous densities of diverse mt-DNA haplo's. (I'm notsure the all labelled « Neolithic » mt-DNA came so latelyfrom Near-Eastern. Some more HGs mt-DNA in South and East couldsurprise us). But it would very well be possible the firstdistributions of mt-DNA was very variable according to places, eitherbecause of different « farmers » mt-DNA or because ofdifferent ratios Hgs-Farmers (more Hgs in North and West and surelyDalmatia/Carpathians). The newcomers from the Steppes and maybePeri-Caucasus at metal ages seem having mixed and pushed all that toaverage %s even if at the subclades levels some differences canperdure a bit more. Only mt-H seems still marking some appreciabledifferences and yet not too great. Resistance of the Atlantic Façadeand related North shores, with some limited West to East last movesby the Celts. The Germanic invasions could have had played a roletoo.
I avow theancient mt-DNA samples are still poor to make sure any conclusionconcerning rôle of Farmers colonization.