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RHAS
15-05-15, 14:32
Late Bronze Age J2a1 found 1110-1270 B.C. Ludas-Varjú-dűlő, Hungary. Kyjatice Culture.

Individual BR2 Y-DNA J2a1.

https://scontent-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/21908_897084093682286_8471265490662712014_n.jpg?oh =1ed1443ab16252f04260603fa8ce804e&oe=55D591AB

"The genomic stasis of the Neolithic is subsequently interrupted during the third millennium BC coinciding with the onset of the Bronze Age. Our two Bronze Age samples, BR1 (1,980–2,190 cal BC) and BR2 (1,110–1,270 cal BC) fall among modern Central European genotypes. Within this period the trade in commodities across Europe increased and the importance of the investigated region as a node is indicated by the growth of heavily fortified settlements in the vicinities of the Carpathian valleys and passes linking North and South26. These two Bronze Age genomes represent the oldest genomic data sampled to date with clear Central European affinities."
Genome flux and stasis in a five millennium transect of European prehistory.
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141021/ncomms6257/full/ncomms6257.html#t1

Table 1: Result summary from 13 Hungarian petrous bone samples.
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141021/ncomms6257/fig_tab/ncomms6257_T1.html

http://a57.foxnews.com/global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/fn2/feeds/LiveScience/876/493/bronze-age-burial.jpg
Foxnews - Ancient human skulls reveal when Europeans could drink milk.
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2014/10/22/ancient-human-skulls-reveal-when-europeans-could-drink-milk/

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/10/23/1414075434681_wps_1_Great_Hungarian_Plain_hun.jpg

Europeans were lactose intolerant 5,000 years AFTER adopting farming: DNA reveals ancient people had difficulty digesting milk
- Discovery made from ancient DNA extracted from 13 skeletons
- Skeletons found in Hungary were dated from 5,700 BC to 800 BC
- The findings show progression towards lighter skin pigmentation
- Surprisingly there was no presence of increased lactose tolerance
- Tolerance to lactose only appeared in the Bronze Age, study claims
- Ancient Europeans may have practiced dairying to make cheese and yoghurt, which breaks down lactose, rather than to drink milk
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2805037/Europeans-lactose-intolerant-5-000-years-adopting-farming-DNA-reveals-ancient-people-difficulty-digesting-milk.html

LeBrok
15-05-15, 16:29
Will you correct your thread about Viticulture, where you claim that J2 was spread by Roman Empire?
When I mentioned that J2 was more ancient around Europe than Roman Empire, you didn't believe me. I'm glad you accepted the news. ;)

Angela
15-05-15, 16:31
This J2a1 find is discussed at length in the thread dedicated to the Gamba et al paper:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30570-Ancient-DNA-from-Hungary-Christine-Gamba-et-al?highlight=Bronze+Age+J2a1

I'm going to permit myself an editorial comment. Given this J2a1's autsosomal make-up and where he shows up why precisely would a finding that the Etruscans were J2 tell us definitively where they came from and what they were like autosomally.

Normally I would say do a search before posting, but in this case it makes sense to have a separate named thread as it will make it easier to find in the search engine. I'll see if some posts can be moved here.

Ed. It's too entertwined. I'll leave them separate, but leave the link here so that people can read what has already been said.

Angela
15-05-15, 16:40
Really??? You find it objectionable to be told it's already been discussed? We should ignore that perhaps and not direct people to the thread?

Amazing.

LeBrok
15-05-15, 16:45
Really?! You're too emotional, dude. God forbid correcting your perfect thoughts, or having different opinion. Perhaps, that's why it's hard for you to see the light?

mihaitzateo
15-05-15, 19:41
LeBrok,I actually think that Romans rather bear more J2 than R1b-U152. But this is a personal opinion.
I also thinks they were bearing G. Romans were only leading class,elite people,extremely intelligent and very advanced as technology .
People of Roman Empire were mixture,assimilated people to Latin civilization.
If J2 was found in Hungary,well is a certain clade and that does not mean that Romans would not have had J2.
Maybe was someone from Italy that traveled till Hungary,a Neolithic farmer.
Also,how many skeletons bearing J2 were found?
If it is only one,how can someone generalize from here,to tell that were many people there (in Hungary),bearing J2?
Besides,it is very possible that both old Greeks and Romans and other Balkanic people,to bear J2.
And also some Middle Eastern people and some Caucasian people.

Angela
15-05-15, 20:22
LeBrok,I actually think that Romans rather bear more J2 than R1b-U152. But this is a personal opinion.
I also thinks they were bearing G. Romans were only leading class,elite people,extremely intelligent and very advanced as technology .
People of Roman Empire were mixture,assimilated people to Latin civilization.
If J2 was found in Hungary,well is a certain clade and that does not mean that Romans would not have had J2.
Maybe was someone from Italy that traveled till Hungary,a Neolithic farmer.
Also,how many skeletons bearing J2 were found?
If it is only one,how can someone generalize from here,to tell that were many people there (in Hungary),bearing J2?
Besides,it is very possible that both old Greeks and Romans and other Balkanic people,to bear J2.
And also some Middle Eastern people and some Caucasian people.

I agree with some of the things you said. J2 is all over...in the Middle East, in Europe, in the Caucasus, even in Central Asia and India.

It's indeed possible it was in ancient Greeks and ancient Romans and in Balkan people. Since we only have a few ancient J2 samples, I don't know how anyone can reach firm conclusions on the matter. What we have so far is a Bronze Age high status person in Hungary (not a Neolithic farmer), and some Merovingian knights. We have the autosomal results for the Bronze Age person, and he seems rather "French like" perhaps, although we have to be cautious with such things. We don't have autsomal dna on the Merovingian knights.

As to the "Romans", who was classified, or even self-identified as a Roman did indeed vary through time. By the time of the late Empire, you could have Gauls, Spaniards, and on and on thinking of themselves as "Romans" in a certain sense...as citizens of the Empire. However, I think many people are very interested in discovering the "autosomal signature" of the "Romans" in, perhaps, the Republican period, or even the period of the early Empire. Well, I am, at least. :)

As far as the technical and cultural achievements of the Romans, all those Roman engineers who figured out how to build roads, and bridges, and aqueducts, and the Pantheon, and spas, were not upper class peope. One of the things to keep in mind, in my opinion, which has been pointed out by numerous scholars of the period, is that part of the genius of the Romans was the way that they allowed for upward mobility within Italy itself, and also later within the Empire as a whole.

Ed. If the rulers treat all the people in their empire who are not of their "ethnic" group as a separate under class that is treated brutally, sooner or later you will have an internal rebellion. Far better to co-opt them.

bicicleur
15-05-15, 21:34
Is there any connection between this J2 and the J2's from the Merovingian era in the Netherlands?
I used to think J2 arrived in Europe with the frist farmers.
After the papers about Hungarian anciant Y-DNA and the Haak paper with Y-DNA of the European neolithic, Yamnaya, Corded Ware and Bell Beaker I must reconsider.
Things point to a relatively late entry of J2 into Europe (bronze & iron age)
As for the J2's from the Merovingian era in the Netherlands I'd go for the Avars. Is there a connection possible?

Angela
15-05-15, 21:45
Is there any connection between this J2 and the J2's from the Merovingian era in the Netherlands?
I used to think J2 arrived in Europe with the frist farmers.
After the papers about Hungarian anciant Y-DNA and the Haak paper with Y-DNA of the European neolithic, Yamnaya, Corded Ware and Bell Beaker I must reconsider.
Things point to a relatively late entry of J2 into Europe (bronze & iron age)
As for the J2's from the Merovingian era in the Netherlands I'd go for the Avars. Is there a connection possible?

It may have been Neolithic in the Near East, yes? The question is did it arrive in Europe before the Neolithic era? Maybe not.

As to the Avars, the possibilities are discussed here...
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31121-Three-J2-found-at-Merovingian-buriel-site-in-Borgharen-Dutch-province-of-Limbur?p=457179&highlight=J2+Merovingians#post457179

Ed. I meant to write "did it arrive in Europe before the Bronze Age?"

Yetos
15-05-15, 21:54
I agree with some of the things you said. J2 is all over...in the Middle East, in Europe, in the Caucasus, even in Central Asia and India.

It's indeedhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/) possible it was in ancient Greeks and ancient Romans and in Balkan peoplehttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/). Since we only have a few ancient J2 samples, I don't know how anyone can reach firm conclusions on the matter. What we have so far is a Bronze Age high status person in Hungary (not a Neolithic farmer), and some Merovingian knights. We have the autosomal results for the Bronze Age person, and he seems rather "French like" perhaps, although we have to be cautious with such things. We don't have autsomal dna on the Merovingian knights.

As to the "Romans", who was classified, or even self-identified as a Roman did indeedhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/) vary through time. By the time of the late Empire, you could have Gauls, Spaniards, and on and on thinking of themselves as "Romans" in a certain sense...as citizens of the Empire. However, I think many peoplehttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/) are very interested in discovering the "autosomal signature" of the "Romans" in, perhaps, the Republican period, or even the period of the early Empire. Well, I am, at least. :)

As far as the technical and culturalhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/) achievements of the Romans, all those Roman engineers who figured out how to build roads, and bridges, and aqueducts, and the Pantheon, and spas, were not upper class peope. One of the things to keep in mind, in my opinion, which has been pointed out by numerous scholars of the period, is that part of the genius of the Romans was the way that they allowed for upward mobility within Italy itself, and also later within the Empire as a whole.

Ed. If the rulers treat all the people in their empire who are not of their "ethnic" group as a separate under class that is treated brutally, sooner or later you will have an internal rebellion. Far better to co-opt them.

I agree in the part of every body could be Roman few centuries after Rome's rising, even in South of Caucasos we see term Rum, citizenship pappers, even Paul of christians said I am a Roman, it was like learning Greek after Alexander's time.
But Romans had 2 epoches before that,
1 was the raisehttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/) of military power,
second was the raisehttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/) of emporium (empire?)
all the roads lead to Rome? why?
Rome was the only clearly inland cityhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/) that make roads to quick transfer of cargoes, west of Asia minor,
neither Balkans, neither Near East, neither Egypt, neither rest Africa, had a clearly away from sea emporium
emporium = plebs plebeians πληβειοι-πληθος crowd, mood
that helped Rome to be rich enough,
as for building tecnicks aquadects etc are typical of an advancing culturehttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/), and many were not discovered or designedhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/) even by them,
but are a mark of the riches from taxation, and the coolest taxation is where 'stock exchange'http://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/) is , and asfter to protect the cargo in the roads.
take a good look, they made the roads, and build cities after certain time walk, or ride!!!

for example, what could be the meaning to build Egnatia road? when you can do it by ship

Angela
15-05-15, 21:59
It may have been Neolithic in the Near East, yes? The question is did it arrive in Europe before the Neolithic era? Maybe not.

As to the Avars, the possibilities are discussed here...
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31121-Three-J2-found-at-Merovingian-buriel-site-in-Borgharen-Dutch-province-of-Limbur?p=457179&highlight=J2+Merovingians#post457179

That was a bit terse...a fuller answer from the other Eupedia thread:


“The grave-field located at the Pasestraat Borgharen is situated on the location of the main building of a Roman villa. The choice of this location can be considered meaningful, for example as part of a strategy to put claims on the land through a claim on the living-space of the previous inhabitants. who could be considered as ancestors.”

“There is a clear distinction between the 2 different grave-fields: the individuals from Daalderveld are all of non local origin. At the gravesite of the Pasestraat (were they find the J2 results) only 4 individuals are of non local origin, but possibly come from the same geological/geographical area. The last isn’t the case at Daalderveld: here the individuals hail from different geological areas, were some ratios until today are not found within the Netherlands. The results of the origin of the horses also yielded interesting results: one of the animals is also of non local origins and has arrived at Borgharen by trade or migration.”

“The objects who were given with the dead indicate that the grave-field was in use in the 6th and 7th centuries.”

“During the construction of the graves it seems the builders took into account the remaining Roman remains. To which extent this happened and what underlying considerations were responsible for this is not clear.”

“The combination of pottery material and the painted plaster places the use of the villa in the 2nd century.”

"Clues to their origins are the artifacts found in the graves: late Roman early Merovingian pottery, Venus Aphrodite hangers, Avar like horse equipment that seems to be found in Europe along the Danube and Rhine, a lot of weaponry, Roman/Byzantine glass beads comparable to modern day Turkish ones, seashells from the Mediterranean, Red Sea and Indian ocean used for Apopopraeon.

Various opinions have been put forth: Avars, Romans or Romans absorbed by the Merovingians, Thracians in the service of Rome etc.

Any ideas here? Perhaps someone else proficient in Dutch could have a look at it or even contact the researchers for some more clarity. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apotropaic_magic)


I can't put my hand on it at the moment, but I think there was a G2a? Merovingian warrior found as well, and then there's all the speculation that the French royal line is G2.(although this latter may be controversial now) I'm not sure what to make of it all. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apotropaic_magic)

bicicleur
16-05-15, 09:31
It may have been Neolithic in the Near East, yes? The question is did it arrive in Europe before the Neolithic era? Maybe not.

As to the Avars, the possibilities are discussed here...
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31121-Three-J2-found-at-Merovingian-buriel-site-in-Borgharen-Dutch-province-of-Limbur?p=457179&highlight=J2+Merovingians#post457179

yes, IMO the Natufians were J2a, and their descendants were the first cereal-growing farmers in the Levant (11500 years ago) and expanded toward southeasterern Anatolia and Mesopotamia
they did not expand into Europe, we know from anciant Y-DNA that was G2a2 (none tested in the southern Balkans though)
they were not in Europe before the neolithic either, at least no J2a Y-DNA has been found in Europe prior to the late bronze age

Tomenable
29-01-16, 20:21
Modern Poles are the group most closely related (autosomally) to BR2:

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2015/12/22/1518445113

See Figure 3.:

http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368/F3.expansion.html

http://s23.postimg.org/biopv521n/image.png

freitas
15-12-16, 17:42
My projected y-dna terminal snp is J2a-Z30685 at J2-M172 Project, looks like it is possibly BR2..