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Sile
20-05-15, 08:17
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/150519/ncomms8152/full/ncomms8152.html

The proportion of Europeans descending from Neolithic farmers ~10 thousand years ago (KYA) or Palaeolithic hunter-gatherers has been much debated. The male-specific region of the Y chromosome (MSY) has been widely applied to this question, but unbiased estimates of diversity and time depth have been lacking. Here we show that European patrilineages underwent a recent continent-wide expansion. Resequencing of 3.7 Mb of MSY DNA in 334 males, comprising 17 European and Middle Eastern populations, defines a phylogeny containing 5,996 single-nucleotide polymorphisms.

Haplogroups E1b-M35, G2a-L31, I2-P215, J2-M172, L-M11 and T-M70 contain long branches with deep-rooting nodes, whereas I1-M253, N1c-M178, R1a-M198 and R1b-M269 show much shallower genealogies.


Interesting paper............

Arame
20-05-15, 09:34
Look at this table
It is very interesting.
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/150519/ncomms8152/fig_tab/ncomms8152_T1.html

Arame
20-05-15, 10:31
There is some critics


Now, about how academic studies work: I was told today that this study had "Lots of new samples!" but to me it seems in fact that these are *exactly* the same samples from Hallast (2015), minus the non-Europeans and non-Levantines. The mutation rate used here is 0.92–1.09) × 10−e9 instead of 0.82 * 10e-9. Can anyone take a set of already published samples, cut out a bunch of them, paste some fuzzy pictures from the earlier paper, use a wrong mutation rate, and then publish a paper in a major academic journal? YES, apparently so. Then you can claim that you "published!" so you don't "perish" (get fired for not doing any research). Whew!

another from Maju


Well, I just made a quick calculation based on the E-M35 age estimate of 18 Ka provided in table 1. If we would have to accept those chronologies at face value, then the E/F (=DE-CF) divergence node would be just 28 Ka old. Not 60 nor 70 nor anything logical: barely 30 Ka!!!

This means that you have to multiply x4 all age "estimates", sorry. Intra-disciplinary circular thinking at its worst but very illuminating, I must say.

Sile
20-05-15, 11:16
There is some critics


another from Maju

what is he calculating?

A TMRCA is the time that a marker expanded into their own subclades. once it splits again then that is a start of another TMRCA for that subclade

arvistro
20-05-15, 21:20
I think TMRCA calculations are far from perfect today. Especially N1c1 should be older than 3,600 or 4,700.
N1c was found in Smolensk ~ 4,500 years ago. I would not be surprised if that was N1c1 already.

Expredel
21-05-15, 14:26
The age estimate of r1b M269 is interesting at 5,550 years, I always thought it was older than that.

HQ420832
21-05-15, 19:39
and we have an interesting table in Supplementary information with probably all ancient European Y-Dna tested so far (98 samples):



Culture
Country
YBP
Hg
Simple hg
N


Mesolithic_HG
Luxembourg
8'000
I2a1b-L178
I2
1


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
7'700
I2a-L460
I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2a1-P37.2
I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2a1a1a-L672
I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2a1b-M423
I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2a1b2a1-L147.2
I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2c2-PF3827
I2
5


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
7'600
H2-L281
H2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Russia
7'600
R1b1-L278
R1b1
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Russia
7'300
R1a1-M459
R1a
1


Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'300
F*-P135
F*
1


Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'300
I2a1b1-L161.1
I2
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'200
T1a-PF5604
T
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'100
G2a2a-PF3147
G2a
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'100
G2a2a-PF3185
G2a
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'100
G2a2a1-PF3170
G2a
1


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
7'100
C1a2-V20/V184
C1
2


Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'100
R1b1-M415
R1b1
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'000
G2a2a1-PF3155
G2a
1


Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'000
E1b1b1a1b1a-V13
E1b1b
1


Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'000
G2a-P15
G2a
5


Early_Neolithic
Spain
6'900
C1a2-V20
C1
1


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
6'400
I2a-L460
I2
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
6'300
F-M89
F*
2


Early_Neolithic
Germany
6'200
G2a2b-S126
G2a
1


Middle_Neolithic
Germany
5'900
F*-P316
F*
1


Middle_Neolithic
Spain
5'800
H2/I2a1a1-L672
I2
1


Middle_Neolithic
Spain
5'800
I2a2a1-CTS9183
I2
1


Middle_Neolithic
Germany
5'600
R*?-P224
R*
1


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
5'600
F-M89
F*
3


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
5'600
G2a-P15
G2a
5


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
5'600
G2a2b-S126
G2a
4


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
5'600
I-M170
I*
1


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
5'600
I1-M253
I1
1


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
5'600
I2a1-P37.2
I2
1


Neolithic_HG
Sweden
5'600
I2a1-P37.2
I2
1


Middle_Neolithic
Germany
5'200
I2a1b1a-L1498
I2
1


Middle_Neolithic
Italy
5'200
G2a2a1b-L91
G2a
1


Steppe_Yamnaya
Russia
5'100
R1b1a-P297
R1b1a
1


Steppe_Yamnaya
Russia
5'100
R1b1a2a-L49.1
R1b1a
1


Steppe_Yamnaya
Russia
5'100
R1b1a2a2-CTS1078
R1b1a
1


Steppe_Yamnaya
Russia
5'100
R1b1a2a2-CTS1078
R1b1a
1


Steppe_Yamnaya
Russia
5'100
R1b1a2a2-Z2105
R1b1a
1


Middle_Neolithic
France
5'000
G2a-P15
G2a
20


Middle_Neolithic
France
5'000
I2a1-P37.2
I2
2


Steppe_Yamnaya
Russia
4'900
R1b1a2a2-CTS1078
R1b1a
1


Steppe_Yamnaya
Russia
4'800
R1b1a2a2-Z2105
R1b1a
1


Middle_Neolithic
France
4'700
I2a1
I2
2


Late_Neolithic
Germany
4'600
R1b-M343
R1b
1


Late_Neolithic
Germany
4'600
R1b1a2-M269
R1b1a
1


Late_Neolithic
Germany
4'400
R1a1a1-M417
R1a
1


Late_Neolithic
Germany
4'300
R1b1a2a1a2-P312
R1b1a
1


Late_Neolithic
Germany
4'100
R1a1-SRY10831.2
R1a
1


Early_Bronze_Age
Germany
4'100
I2-L68
I2
1


Early_Bronze_Age
Germany
4'100
I2a2-L368
I2
1


Early_Bronze_Age
Germany
4'100
I2c2-PF3827
I2
1


Early_Bronze_Age
Germany
3'100
R1a1a1b1a2-S204
R1a
1


Late_Bronze_Age
Hungary
?
J2a1-S57
J2
1



And summary by Culture/Hg :



Culture
Total


Mesolithic_HG
1


I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
11


I2
9


R1a
1


R1b1
1


Early_Neolithic
38


C1
3


E1b1b
1


F*
6


G2a
19


H2
1


I*
1


I1
1


I2
4


R1b1
1


T
1


Neolithic_HG
1


I2
1


Middle_Neolithic
30


F*
1


G2a
21


I2
7


R*
1


Steppe_Yamnaya
7


R1b1a
7


Late_Neolithic
5


R1a
2


R1b
1


R1b1a
2


Early_Bronze_Age
4


I2
3


R1a
1


Late_Bronze_Age
1


J2
1


Grand Total
98

Fluffy
21-05-15, 19:40
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/150519/ncomms8152/full/ncomms8152.html

The proportion of Europeans descending from Neolithic farmers ~10 thousand years ago (KYA) or Palaeolithic hunter-gatherers has been much debated. The male-specific region of the Y chromosome (MSY) has been widely applied to this question, but unbiased estimates of diversity and time depth have been lacking. Here we show that European patrilineages underwent a recent continent-wide expansion. Resequencing of 3.7 Mb of MSY DNA in 334 males, comprising 17 European and Middle Eastern populations, defines a phylogeny containing 5,996 single-nucleotide polymorphisms.

Haplogroups E1b-M35, G2a-L31, I2-P215, J2-M172, L-M11 and T-M70 contain long branches with deep-rooting nodes, whereas I1-M253, N1c-M178, R1a-M198 and R1b-M269 show much shallower genealogies.


Interesting paper............

Thanks Sile, very interesting.

bicicleur
21-05-15, 20:46
and we have an interesting table in Supplementary information with probably all ancient European Y-Dna tested so far (98 samples):



Culture
Country
YBP
Hg
Simple hg
N


Mesolithic_HG
Luxembourg
8'000
I2a1b-L178
I2
1


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
7'700
I2a-L460
I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2a1-P37.2
I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2a1a1a-L672
I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2a1b-M423
I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2a1b2a1-L147.2
I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2c2-PF3827
I2
5


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
7'600
H2-L281
H2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Russia
7'600
R1b1-L278
R1b1
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Russia
7'300
R1a1-M459
R1a
1


Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'300
F*-P135
F*
1


Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'300
I2a1b1-L161.1
I2
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'200
T1a-PF5604
T
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'100
G2a2a-PF3147
G2a
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'100
G2a2a-PF3185
G2a
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'100
G2a2a1-PF3170
G2a
1


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
7'100
C1a2-V20/V184
C1
2


Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'100
R1b1-M415
R1b1
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'000
G2a2a1-PF3155
G2a
1


Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'000
E1b1b1a1b1a-V13
E1b1b
1


Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'000
G2a-P15
G2a
5


Early_Neolithic
Spain
6'900
C1a2-V20
C1
1


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
6'400
I2a-L460
I2
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
6'300
F-M89
F*
2


Early_Neolithic
Germany
6'200
G2a2b-S126
G2a
1


Middle_Neolithic
Germany
5'900
F*-P316
F*
1


Middle_Neolithic
Spain
5'800
H2/I2a1a1-L672
I2
1


Middle_Neolithic
Spain
5'800
I2a2a1-CTS9183
I2
1


Middle_Neolithic
Germany
5'600
R*?-P224
R*
1


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
5'600
F-M89
F*
3


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
5'600
G2a-P15
G2a
5


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
5'600
G2a2b-S126
G2a
4


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
5'600
I-M170
I*
1


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
5'600
I1-M253
I1
1


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
5'600
I2a1-P37.2
I2
1


Neolithic_HG
Sweden
5'600
I2a1-P37.2
I2
1


Middle_Neolithic
Germany
5'200
I2a1b1a-L1498
I2
1


Middle_Neolithic
Italy
5'200
G2a2a1b-L91
G2a
1


Steppe_Yamnaya
Russia
5'100
R1b1a-P297
R1b1a
1


Steppe_Yamnaya
Russia
5'100
R1b1a2a-L49.1
R1b1a
1


Steppe_Yamnaya
Russia
5'100
R1b1a2a2-CTS1078
R1b1a
1


Steppe_Yamnaya
Russia
5'100
R1b1a2a2-CTS1078
R1b1a
1


Steppe_Yamnaya
Russia
5'100
R1b1a2a2-Z2105
R1b1a
1


Middle_Neolithic
France
5'000
G2a-P15
G2a
20


Middle_Neolithic
France
5'000
I2a1-P37.2
I2
2


Steppe_Yamnaya
Russia
4'900
R1b1a2a2-CTS1078
R1b1a
1


Steppe_Yamnaya
Russia
4'800
R1b1a2a2-Z2105
R1b1a
1


Middle_Neolithic
France
4'700
I2a1
I2
2


Late_Neolithic
Germany
4'600
R1b-M343
R1b
1


Late_Neolithic
Germany
4'600
R1b1a2-M269
R1b1a
1


Late_Neolithic
Germany
4'400
R1a1a1-M417
R1a
1


Late_Neolithic
Germany
4'300
R1b1a2a1a2-P312
R1b1a
1


Late_Neolithic
Germany
4'100
R1a1-SRY10831.2
R1a
1


Early_Bronze_Age
Germany
4'100
I2-L68
I2
1


Early_Bronze_Age
Germany
4'100
I2a2-L368
I2
1


Early_Bronze_Age
Germany
4'100
I2c2-PF3827
I2
1


Early_Bronze_Age
Germany
3'100
R1a1a1b1a2-S204
R1a
1


Late_Bronze_Age
Hungary
?
J2a1-S57
J2
1





where did they get the info re the sublcades of the Swedish Huntergatherers 7700 YBP ?
who tested for subclades ?
it is the first time I see these subclades assigned and I'm not sure it is correct

Sile
21-05-15, 21:05
where did they get the info re the sublcades of the Swedish Huntergatherers 7700 YBP ?
who tested for subclades ?
it is the first time I see these subclades assigned and I'm not sure it is correct

testing of ancients always continues ...............sometimes for years...................the LBK_EN ones where found in 2012 , yet their ydna was discovered in late 2014

Sile
21-05-15, 21:08
as per dienekes site, it seems that dating formula is slightly different

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2015/05/more-y-chromosome-super-fathers.html

Sile
22-05-15, 08:29
and we have an interesting table in Supplementary information with probably all ancient European Y-Dna tested so far (98 samples):



Culture
Country
YBP
Hg
Simple hg
N


Mesolithic_HG
Luxembourg
8'000
I2a1b-L178
I2
1


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
7'700
I2a-L460
I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2a1-P37.2
I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2a1a1a-L672
I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2a1b-M423
I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2a1b2a1-L147.2
I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2c2-PF3827
I2
5


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
7'600
H2-L281
H2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Russia
7'600
R1b1-L278
R1b1
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Russia
7'300
R1a1-M459
R1a
1


Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'300
F*-P135
F*
1


Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'300
I2a1b1-L161.1
I2
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'200
T1a-PF5604
T
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'100
G2a2a-PF3147
G2a
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'100
G2a2a-PF3185
G2a
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'100
G2a2a1-PF3170
G2a
1


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
7'100
C1a2-V20/V184
C1
2


Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'100
R1b1-M415
R1b1
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'000
G2a2a1-PF3155
G2a
1


Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'000
E1b1b1a1b1a-V13
E1b1b
1


Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'000
G2a-P15
G2a
5


Early_Neolithic
Spain
6'900
C1a2-V20
C1
1


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
6'400
I2a-L460
I2
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
6'300
F-M89
F*
2


Early_Neolithic
Germany
6'200
G2a2b-S126
G2a
1


Middle_Neolithic
Germany
5'900
F*-P316
F*
1


Middle_Neolithic
Spain
5'800
H2/I2a1a1-L672
I2
1


Middle_Neolithic
Spain
5'800
I2a2a1-CTS9183
I2
1


Middle_Neolithic
Germany
5'600
R*?-P224
R*
1


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
5'600
F-M89
F*
3


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
5'600
G2a-P15
G2a
5


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
5'600
G2a2b-S126
G2a
4


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
5'600
I-M170
I*
1


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
5'600
I1-M253
I1
1


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
5'600
I2a1-P37.2
I2
1


Neolithic_HG
Sweden
5'600
I2a1-P37.2
I2
1


Middle_Neolithic
Germany
5'200
I2a1b1a-L1498
I2
1


Middle_Neolithic
Italy
5'200
G2a2a1b-L91
G2a
1


Steppe_Yamnaya
Russia
5'100
R1b1a-P297
R1b1a
1


Steppe_Yamnaya
Russia
5'100
R1b1a2a-L49.1
R1b1a
1


Steppe_Yamnaya
Russia
5'100
R1b1a2a2-CTS1078
R1b1a
1


Steppe_Yamnaya
Russia
5'100
R1b1a2a2-CTS1078
R1b1a
1


Steppe_Yamnaya
Russia
5'100
R1b1a2a2-Z2105
R1b1a
1


Middle_Neolithic
France
5'000
G2a-P15
G2a
20


Middle_Neolithic
France
5'000
I2a1-P37.2
I2
2


Steppe_Yamnaya
Russia
4'900
R1b1a2a2-CTS1078
R1b1a
1


Steppe_Yamnaya
Russia
4'800
R1b1a2a2-Z2105
R1b1a
1


Middle_Neolithic
France
4'700
I2a1
I2
2


Late_Neolithic
Germany
4'600
R1b-M343
R1b
1


Late_Neolithic
Germany
4'600
R1b1a2-M269
R1b1a
1


Late_Neolithic
Germany
4'400
R1a1a1-M417
R1a
1


Late_Neolithic
Germany
4'300
R1b1a2a1a2-P312
R1b1a
1


Late_Neolithic
Germany
4'100
R1a1-SRY10831.2
R1a
1


Early_Bronze_Age
Germany
4'100
I2-L68
I2
1


Early_Bronze_Age
Germany
4'100
I2a2-L368
I2
1


Early_Bronze_Age
Germany
4'100
I2c2-PF3827
I2
1


Early_Bronze_Age
Germany
3'100
R1a1a1b1a2-S204
R1a
1


Late_Bronze_Age
Hungary
?
J2a1-S57
J2
1



And summary by Culture/Hg :



Culture
Total


Mesolithic_HG
1


I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
11


I2
9


R1a
1


R1b1
1


Early_Neolithic
38


C1
3


E1b1b
1


F*
6


G2a
19


H2
1


I*
1


I1
1


I2
4


R1b1
1


T
1


Neolithic_HG
1


I2
1


Middle_Neolithic
30


F*
1


G2a
21


I2
7


R*
1


Steppe_Yamnaya
7


R1b1a
7


Late_Neolithic
5


R1a
2


R1b
1


R1b1a
2


Early_Bronze_Age
4


I2
3


R1a
1


Late_Bronze_Age
1


J2
1


Grand Total
98




my surprise, is still not many found in Italy

bicicleur
22-05-15, 08:52
testing of ancients always continues ...............sometimes for years...................the LBK_EN ones where found in 2012 , yet their ydna was discovered in late 2014

I understand that, but that does not mean these data are correct.
I'd like to know who made these subclade assignments and how much coverage of the DNA they got. A single reading is not reliable if it is not confirmed by more readings.

Tomenable
23-05-15, 11:48
I have recently made two maps of ancient Y-DNA from Europe.

First represents the Mesolithic-Neolithic period in Europe, second represents the Chalcolithic-Iron Age period in Central Europe only.

1. The distribution of Y-DNA haplogroups in Europe in period ca. 6000 BC - ca. 3000 BC, with a few exceptions after 3000 BC:

The exceptions (after 3000 BC) include e.g. two samples from Poland - they are dated at approximately 2800 BC and belong to Corded Ware culture, but I decided to include them because probably they represent assimilated Neolithic population in that new Corded culture.

Also in Russia near the border with Belarus (in Smolensk oblast and Pskov oblast) only one sample of R1a is dated at 4000 BC, while the other 3 samples (two R1a and one N1c) are dated at 2500 BC - these 3 belong to "Zhizhitskaya culture" (I have no idea what it was).

Each circle in the map represents one sample, but note that locations are not accurate (for example most of G2 samples from southern France are from just one cemetery - they were found in the Treilles cave in Saint-Jean-et-Saint-Paul commune of Aveyron department):

I1 oraz I = I1 and I (one of these 2 samples is I1 from Hungary dated at ca. 7500 years ago, the other one is only given as I):

http://s2.postimg.org/zebg23dw9/Y_DNA_8_do_5_kya.png

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Second map:

2. Y-DNA hg-s in Central Europe in period ca. 2800 BC - ca. 700 BC (11 out of 12 samples of I2a are from one cemetery - a cave near Dorste):

Legend (in English):

KCS = Corded Ware cultural horizon
KPP = Urnfield cultural horizon
BB = Bell Beaker cultural horizon
KŁ = Lusatian culture
KH = Hallstatt culture
KU = Unetice culture
Kyjatice culture
Mezocsat culture

I2 klad niepodany = I2 subclade not given (these are Unetice culture samples from Eulau)
J albo I = J or I (one of two CWC samples from Jagodno from ca. 2800 BC)

Such text = places of burials

In this map I included also the same two samples from Poland (dated at ca. 2800 BC) as in the first map:

http://s11.postimg.org/gqpx5ddib/Copper_to_Iron.png

The map shows burials from period ca. 2800 BC (Jagodno) to ca. 700 BC (Mitterkirchen).

Tomenable
23-05-15, 12:13
What can be seen is a strong correlation between Bell Beakers (BB) and R1b, as well as between Corded Wares (KCS) and R1a.

By contrast Urnfield cultures are mixed, with R1a in the east and R1b in the west.

Bell Beaker cultures are thought to have originated in Iberia - so I wonder what is the source of R1b in those cultures:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture#Origins


There have been numerous proposals by archaeologists as to the origins of the Bell Beaker culture, and debates continued on for decades. Several regions of origin have been postulated, notably the Iberian peninsula, the Netherlands and Central Europe.

Because we have Neolithic R1b from Els Trocs cave in northern Spain, but we also have R1b from Samara Oblast in Russia.

Could it be that eastern R1b first made its way to Iberia, and then expanded from Iberia with Bell Beakers ???

Or perhaps those cultures originated in the Netherlands or in Central Europe, and not in Iberia ???