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Drac II
11-09-15, 08:27
http://www.unz.com/gnxp/spaniards-do-have-moorish-admixture/

iberians have a lot of north-african markers............

No, not too much (except among Canarian islanders and to a lesser extent some areas of western Iberia), and certainly quite less than certain other European groups have of Middle Eastern markers. And the link you posted is by that blogger "Razib", who is trying to use that sloppy Botigue et al paper for his agenda.

Drac II
11-09-15, 08:29
You like to answer my posts because you probably have no job and get bored all day. If you were so knowledgeable you would have ignored me since you think I am so "wrong." But it's clear to me you are not that knowledgeable. You also don't debate; you split hairs and never offer any knowledge that adds to our understanding. You just say "this is the facts, etc . . . " This is why many here ignore you. I also asked you what ethnic background and what are your credentials but you never answer. You seem like some kind of an expert but you are not fooling me.

Funny, because it is you who never ignores me and tries to come back with replies, but only to once again usually fail to prove your dubious claims.

Drac II
11-09-15, 08:30
OK, but if you go back, way back, it did originate somewhere either in Northern Germany, Denmark, or Southern Scandinavia. This is the original homeland of all Germanic peoples. Are you saying the Goths were not Germanic??

The fact that they spoke a Germanic language does not mean that they must have originated in Scandinavia. Germanic peoples were found elsewhere too.

Drac II
11-09-15, 08:58
That's right: "so far." We need to wait and see what the future brings. And yes i read Peter Heather. I don't care if you doubt it. Jordanes and other writers claimed that Goths came from Scandinavia. Since they spoke an Eastern Germanic language and their culture was Germanic, then it's safe to assume they came from the Germanic homeland, i.e., Scandinavia.

Well, we have to go by what is currently available. If some day someone finds evidence for earlier Gothic culture in Scandinavia than anywhere else then the record will be changed. But so far the earliest evidence does not point toward Scandinavia.

If you really had read Heather then you would not have been surprised when I told you about the Goths likely originating in Poland, you would already have known about it.

Sile
11-09-15, 10:11
No, not too much (except among Canarian islanders and to a lesser extent some areas of western Iberia), and certainly quite less than certain other European groups have of Middle Eastern markers. And the link you posted is by that blogger "Razib", who is trying to use that sloppy Botigue et al paper for his agenda.

I agree razib is a bit "sloppy" , but the 35 comments where interesting with this link below is a good read if you view it all

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25130626

Drac II
13-09-15, 07:47
I agree razib is a bit "sloppy" , but the 35 comments where interesting with this link below is a good read if you view it all

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25130626

Interesting that they actually estimated the date of arrival of that L marker, and found it very old. Also, interestingly enough it was found in a western part of Iberia. For some reason the western parts of the peninsula seem to have attracted the attention of ancient migrants/farmers who carried African markers more than the eastern parts.

Johannes
15-09-15, 15:59
You have not surprised at all. I read Heather's book 25 years ago. I knew the Wielbark Culture was in Poland but I agreed that the Goths MUST HAVE originated in Scandinavia. That's all. What surprised me is your stubborn belief that they did not originate there. What you want to believe is OK by me but just don't go around slandering people whom you don't agree with. You also never answer my question about what exactly you have read as you come across as being strange.

Drac II
16-09-15, 06:24
You have not surprised at all. I read Heather's book 25 years ago. I knew the Wielbark Culture was in Poland but I agreed that the Goths MUST HAVE originated in Scandinavia. That's all. What surprised me is your stubborn belief that they did not originate there. What you want to believe is OK by me but just don't go around slandering people whom you don't agree with. You also never answer my question about what exactly you have read as you come across as being strange.

Further evidence that you in fact have not read Heather's book: it was first published in 1996, not 25 years ago. Thanks for proving once again that it is in fact you who is the "strange" one around here.

Johannes
22-09-15, 16:28
Further evidence that you in fact have not read Heather's book: it was first published in 1996, not 25 years ago. Thanks for proving once again that it is in fact you who is the "strange" one around here.

I did read it in the 1990's. Actually I read it while doing my research on the Goths during the 1990's while I was getting my masters in history. So I got the date wrong. Big deal. It was a long time ago.

The one who give further evidence of strangeness is you: OK, I guess you read Heather's book but why don't you tell us all about how much your read, your ethnicity, and education? I am guessing you have a BA??? You don't want to give us the information because you want no one to know. Right? I bet you don't even have a job and stay all day bored putting your two cents to every website that deals with genetics. Right?

Johannes
22-09-15, 17:02
http://www.unz.com/gnxp/spaniards-do-have-moorish-admixture/

iberians have a lot of north-african markers............but where these prior moor or berber

No: Iberians in general have small amounts of Berber markers. But if you look at certain regions of Spain and Portugal you will find significant amounts. For example, SW Iberia, which will be southern Portugal and parts of western Andalusia have significant amounts of Berber DNA. This is because the Berbers settled there in large numbers. Although most were expelled or killed many converted. This also happened in SE Spain. I read somewhere that 8% is the average Berber DNA in Iberia, but that it varies all over the peninsula. For example, it's almost 0% in the north but in the south it can reach as high as 20%. But if you add Jewish DNA it becomes even higher. Combined DNA of Berber and Jews can be between 10-20% in general over the Spanish population (don't know in Portugal. But it is probably higher).

Johannes
22-09-15, 17:24
Funny, because it is you who never ignores me and tries to come back with replies, but only to once again usually fail to prove your dubious claims.

Yes you are right, it is funny I answer your posts. You know what? I will stop answering them.

Johannes
22-09-15, 17:49
Here are some evidence of Berber mixture in Spain: Antonio Banderas was born in Almeria. This region was heavily populated by Berbers. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBwgHBgkIBwgKCgkLDRYPDQwMDRsUFRAWIB0iIiAdHx 8kKDQsJCYxJx8fLT0tMTU3Ojo6Iys/RD84QzQ5OjcBCgoKDQwNGg8PGjclHyU3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nz c3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3N//AABEIAIEAZAMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAcAAAABwEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQIEBQYHAwj/xABEEAACAQMBBQUEBgcECwAAAAABAgMABBEFBhIhMUEHEyJRYR RxgaEyQpGxwdEVIyRSYnLwNkOS8QgzNFRkc3R1srPD/8QAGQEAAgMBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQF/8QAJBEAAgMAAQIGAwAAAAAAAAAAAAECAxESIUETFSIxUWEEFFL/2gAMAwEAAhEDEQA/ANnzSCKOioASaKlUliAMnlQARIHMiq7ru2Wh6NKILy8UTHmi8S vHr5VUO1Lbx9OaTSdHcC6VT382P9UCOQ8zx Hv5Yzd3M9y8rPvuzHfaSRiWB6knrQPDfr/ALTNAtJgiTG4BznuQDjH5070TbzRdWkEQnFvIeQmYA/fXm4KB4pC4JwwKjl5ZpxA0ib4j3yycS5PADzFAYer4pElXfidX XzU5FHWPdmu3U0E/wCjNUk72NlAildgCmAeBPX/AD91bCjb8auOTDIoEN9Qtzd2NxbK 4ZomQNjOMgjNMe5vbK0tLWzkixDAsbPJAzAkADPBhjgDw9R5cZ Y0VAEHLNrW94PZQOP0rZz1P8AGOmKFTlCgB3mhRChQADVP7UdX 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https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Pen%C3%A9lope_Cruz_-_Cannes_2011.jpg/220px-Pen%C3%A9lope_Cruz_-_Cannes_2011.jpg Penelope Cruz looks more Jewish but can be Berber as well.

Javier Bardem is actually part Berber as his father or mother comes from the Canary Islands: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBwgHBgkIBwgKCgkLDRYPDQwMDRsUFRAWIB0iIiAdHx 8kKDQsJCYxJx8fLT0tMTU3Ojo6Iys/RD84QzQ5OjcBCgoKDQwNGg8PGjclHyU3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nz c3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3N//AABEIALoAfQMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAcAAAABwEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAgMEBQYHAAj/xABAEAACAQMCAwUFBgMECwAAAAABAgMABBEFIRIxQQYHEyJRFG FxgaEVMkKRscEzUtFygqLCCCMkNkNidJKy0vD/xAAZAQACAwEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQIDBAX/xAAhEQACAgIBBQEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAQIRAyExBBITQVEyIv/aAAwDAQACEQMRAD8Aw2l4xx7UhSkZZd1oANKgjYFTvQi4lBUhz kUmzEtk0B91ADqS9mmTgkbynnjrTU7HFKRxlhxZwKkoNLjMBkn mZSRlVUc6jaiSpyInNGCOV4hy9amINNts5HiS9McsUa64BiBol WJDyxv dLvXofj jTTHdSTx8NGvm8 SeLNSVnY28sLhZ1XIIBY/dxv86jru0dGZS4Yg mM0rtkqaQaylU8WP0prqR84p1pcRBlDDcdDTbV8CYAelNckXwM 03bFGlUCiKN6PJyFTICYrq4c6MfjQML1pwAAm1IyjhY0onmGKA Em 9RgMCgYDi2pQY4SKQhbTzxTIhGRxU99sY3EguRmPkgH4eWMflT 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So as you go south the more Berber and Jewish DNA you will find.http://www.eupedia.com/forum/image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBwgHBgkIBwgKCgkLDRYPDQwMDRsUFRAWIB0iIiAdHx 8kKDQsJCYxJx8fLT0tMTU3Ojo6Iys/RD84QzQ5OjcBCgoKDQwNGg8PGjclHyU3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nz c3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3N//AABEIAFUAjgMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAbAAACAwEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAADBAIFBgAHAf/EADYQAAICAgECAwYCCAcAAAAAAAECAAMEESEFEgYxQRMiUWFxg SORBzNCUmKhscEUMnLC0eHw/8QAGQEAAwEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQF/8QAHxEBAQACAgMBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAECEQMhEjFBMnEi/9oADAMBAAIRAxEAPwCxVIVUn1VhVWVpFqITiTVJNVhAsZIBJ97 IULKPxh1luidL9pTo5FrdlY HHJ 0V6CfW t4XSKt331 19Kt 8ftKNvG9KIXelQP2QW0T9tTzwX23WvkXM1jluWY s WVtkuWJBYjQ00jyazFon8VZGXkFg7oP4XO eNy66f1K61nsrziFHCliSD Znnox8itwGQ/Y7jSZN1TBQtvHoBwPrItq5/HsnTMtczGRifxNe9xrZ IjbJMB0bqjVojHJIYHkOrD8ps j57ZqN7Vkbf6srvkfOXhnvpnyYa7hkpBskbKwbLNGRNlgXWOOs C6wBN1gHHMbdYu4ga4VYVVkVhBAkgsmqz4sIBAOCzzf9KWSX6l iYagEpV3cee2PO/ss9KE8t/ShWa vV2/s2Yy XyJEnL0rD2xjooKpvez6TUeFumVXBmt94 kywUlwR5 gm/wDDmHbiYa2X8Ow4HwEwzuo6cJur/A6NhD9ZUp svcbw3022sAY6DY8wvMpMbqnTxYK7M2tW G96M1XSMyqxDqxGA9Vbcym99ui610AvgrpWQrVW95RhrSnWvnM 10TEs6Tm5OBkv7SyjJNalvMqfI/3 83lGTUHfdq 6fU6mf6slZ8T0WJ2WJkIWLodgOq6IP2AP3M2wnbDk9GGWDYQzQ bTpcZdxA2Rh4u8RFrBFnHMasi1nnA1wsIsEsIsCEXyhBBrJrGE xML486QM7qtN1pdazj9isvOmBYnfyA39dibmUfij2wWh60DL2W KN/vnWv5d0jk/Na8WrnNvLaOmth9aqpvG/eBB1wR8p6Dm1BqiOezWtDz1KjHwbLlwMjJBF2OWW3vHJO PrNAWB138jU5Mst9uzDHXTNY Ne bRjLg4y47vpnuffYP3j/wACOWYtnScus46BEfYY1sdEf 3NJg1Y97f5QGHkSIn1l1bKZS3u1nXx19Yb3F OkfFGPbbiYd JQbxcgDKbAvI4PqPSO HOm/4asWW4wpdNaZbC6sSOdHfpvX2l50CmjN6WtGUocIeN62I9nrXX jV11KFVTry1NOP3GXN arWMG0mTBtOpwBPAPDtAOYgXsi1kYsMVsPMDXKwiwawixkmsII NYRYBMSv8QO1fSb2VA5AB0flzLARTrF JjdLyruoN24qVk2cb4 Xzivc0curtk8EjIoqykJFd1YPa3nv/ryjKkMdE8xLCvqGCv GBSqpinZvlQDwPy1CG9ewup49NTis PQl rTCtXG/Fc 6v8AWIZCZFt9gw8ntNz92 wHn4cyFrPkVL7BlJT9knz cljnNFoFeTjV9vJ93RHz84YyLl8uo0nhfCzE5tzFr0T3Iq772A 8tnylvnWdz6 8qse/qL0GxW6fkIBsitiCD6nyjRbvHd8Ztx4/66Yc9smqiYNjJMYNjN3Eg5i9hhLGi1jQMGwxZzzC2GLsYqa WFWBUwqmUkUSYMEDIZOVRh475GValVSDbMx1AGhPNf0keIkyrB 0jEfdVTbvYHhm9F g/r9IPxN42yM4Pi9L7sfGPDW TuP9o/nMSwO fpEqRe9C6qag1Nh37uj/EPQ/Uf0limScd 4EWUtMepZXDKSCOQRLnp crcWD/UJlnx77jbDPXVaLC6lWckKu19SvxE2GPj9Oz60NpKEDYddb nImLTExMhBbVsgf5u06KmXVWFRR0bJ6nXlWezorb8Pu821x/OY/W8tjYHHxcfDWjD57zySByPXyn08DQ4AmO8NeJg1TVZig2AbUj9 31A3NXTfXkUrbS4ethsETpwx1HLy5eVSYwLmTYwDmUyDsaLWGF saK2NAw3MExkmMGZJr5YRTPs6Wl1tnsqXs13dqltb89CeR9c61 l9byRZlPqsH8OlT7qb/v8506CordcSFi8T5OiUGBsc/MT6u194E7nToCrrpuVZQ6uh5 E0HUcxbukXdPpoFK2hbrXDb7gCfdA9OQJ06O4yzZTKy9MyjlOB 5gcGbjwllWLm34e/wmT2oH7p3o6/OfJ0WPpWbTvAOZ06DItYeIs5nToqYTQbTp0So//9k=

Angela
22-09-15, 19:14
Here are some evidence of Berber mixture in Spain: Antonio Banderas was born in Almeria. This region was heavily populated by Berbers. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBwgHBgkIBwgKCgkLDRYPDQwMDRsUFRAWIB0iIiAdHx 8kKDQsJCYxJx8fLT0tMTU3Ojo6Iys/RD84QzQ5OjcBCgoKDQwNGg8PGjclHyU3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nz c3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3N//AABEIAIEAZAMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAcAAAABwEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQIEBQYHAwj/xABEEAACAQMBBQUEBgcECwAAAAABAgMABBEFBhIhMUEHEyJRYR RxgaEyQpGxwdEVIyRSYnLwNkOS8QgzNFRkc3R1srPD/8QAGQEAAgMBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQF/8QAJBEAAgMAAQIGAwAAAAAAAAAAAAECAxESIUETFSIxUWEEFFL/2gAMAwEAAhEDEQA/ANnzSCKOioASaKlUliAMnlQARIHMiq7ru2Wh6NKILy8UTHmi8S vHr5VUO1Lbx9OaTSdHcC6VT382P9UCOQ8zx Hv5Yzd3M9y8rPvuzHfaSRiWB6knrQPDfr/ALTNAtJgiTG4BznuQDjH5070TbzRdWkEQnFvIeQmYA/fXm4KB4pC4JwwKjl5ZpxA0ib4j3yycS5PADzFAYer4pElXfidX XzU5FHWPdmu3U0E/wCjNUk72NlAildgCmAeBPX/AD91bCjb8auOTDIoEN9Qtzd2NxbK 4ZomQNjOMgjNMe5vbK0tLWzkixDAsbPJAzAkADPBhjgDw9R5cZ Y0VAEHLNrW94PZQOP0rZz1P8AGOmKFTlCgB3mhRChQADVP7UdX 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https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Pen%C3%A9lope_Cruz_-_Cannes_2011.jpg/220px-Pen%C3%A9lope_Cruz_-_Cannes_2011.jpg Penelope Cruz looks more Jewish but can be Berber as well.

Javier Bardem is actually part Berber as his father or mother comes from the Canary Islands: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBwgHBgkIBwgKCgkLDRYPDQwMDRsUFRAWIB0iIiAdHx 8kKDQsJCYxJx8fLT0tMTU3Ojo6Iys/RD84QzQ5OjcBCgoKDQwNGg8PGjclHyU3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nz c3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3N//AABEIALoAfQMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAcAAAABwEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAgMEBQYHAAj/xABAEAACAQMCAwUFBgMECwAAAAABAgMABBEFIRIxQQYHEyJRFG FxgaEVMkKRscEzUtFygqLCCCMkNkNidJKy0vD/xAAZAQACAwEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQIDBAX/xAAhEQACAgIBBQEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAQIRAyExBBITQVEyIv/aAAwDAQACEQMRAD8Aw2l4xx7UhSkZZd1oANKgjYFTvQi4lBUhz kUmzEtk0B91ADqS9mmTgkbynnjrTU7HFKRxlhxZwKkoNLjMBkn mZSRlVUc6jaiSpyInNGCOV4hy9amINNts5HiS9McsUa64BiBol WJDyxv dLvXofj jTTHdSTx8NGvm8 SeLNSVnY28sLhZ1XIIBY/dxv86jru0dGZS4Yg mM0rtkqaQaylU8WP0prqR84p1pcRBlDDcdDTbV8CYAelNckXwM 03bFGlUCiKN6PJyFTICYrq4c6MfjQML1pwAAm1IyjhY0onmGKA Em 9RgMCgYDi2pQY4SKQhbTzxTIhGRxU99sY3EguRmPkgH4eWMflT 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So as you go south the more Berber and Jewish DNA you will find.http://www.eupedia.com/forum/image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBwgHBgkIBwgKCgkLDRYPDQwMDRsUFRAWIB0iIiAdHx 8kKDQsJCYxJx8fLT0tMTU3Ojo6Iys/RD84QzQ5OjcBCgoKDQwNGg8PGjclHyU3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nz c3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3N//AABEIAFUAjgMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAbAAACAwEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAADBAIFBgAHAf/EADYQAAICAgECAwYCCAcAAAAAAAECAAMEESEFEgYxQRMiUWFxg SORBzNCUmKhscEUMnLC0eHw/8QAGQEAAwEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQF/8QAHxEBAQACAgMBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAECEQMhEjFBMnEi/9oADAMBAAIRAxEAPwCxVIVUn1VhVWVpFqITiTVJNVhAsZIBJ97 IULKPxh1luidL9pTo5FrdlY HHJ 0V6CfW t4XSKt331 19Kt 8ftKNvG9KIXelQP2QW0T9tTzwX23WvkXM1jluWY s WVtkuWJBYjQ00jyazFon8VZGXkFg7oP4XO eNy66f1K61nsrziFHCliSD Znnox8itwGQ/Y7jSZN1TBQtvHoBwPrItq5/HsnTMtczGRifxNe9xrZ IjbJMB0bqjVojHJIYHkOrD8ps j57ZqN7Vkbf6srvkfOXhnvpnyYa7hkpBskbKwbLNGRNlgXWOOs C6wBN1gHHMbdYu4ga4VYVVkVhBAkgsmqz4sIBAOCzzf9KWSX6l iYagEpV3cee2PO/ss9KE8t/ShWa vV2/s2Yy XyJEnL0rD2xjooKpvez6TUeFumVXBmt94 kywUlwR5 gm/wDDmHbiYa2X8Ow4HwEwzuo6cJur/A6NhD9ZUp svcbw3022sAY6DY8wvMpMbqnTxYK7M2tW G96M1XSMyqxDqxGA9Vbcym99ui610AvgrpWQrVW95RhrSnWvnM 10TEs6Tm5OBkv7SyjJNalvMqfI/3 83lGTUHfdq 6fU6mf6slZ8T0WJ2WJkIWLodgOq6IP2AP3M2wnbDk9GGWDYQzQ bTpcZdxA2Rh4u8RFrBFnHMasi1nnA1wsIsEsIsCEXyhBBrJrGE xML486QM7qtN1pdazj9isvOmBYnfyA39dibmUfij2wWh60DL2W KN/vnWv5d0jk/Na8WrnNvLaOmth9aqpvG/eBB1wR8p6Dm1BqiOezWtDz1KjHwbLlwMjJBF2OWW3vHJO PrNAWB138jU5Mst9uzDHXTNY Ne bRjLg4y47vpnuffYP3j/wACOWYtnScus46BEfYY1sdEf 3NJg1Y97f5QGHkSIn1l1bKZS3u1nXx19Yb3F OkfFGPbbiYd JQbxcgDKbAvI4PqPSO HOm/4asWW4wpdNaZbC6sSOdHfpvX2l50CmjN6WtGUocIeN62I9nrXX jV11KFVTry1NOP3GXN arWMG0mTBtOpwBPAPDtAOYgXsi1kYsMVsPMDXKwiwawixkmsII NYRYBMSv8QO1fSb2VA5AB0flzLARTrF JjdLyruoN24qVk2cb4 Xzivc0curtk8EjIoqykJFd1YPa3nv/ryjKkMdE8xLCvqGCv GBSqpinZvlQDwPy1CG9ewup49NTis PQl rTCtXG/Fc 6v8AWIZCZFt9gw8ntNz92 wHn4cyFrPkVL7BlJT9knz cljnNFoFeTjV9vJ93RHz84YyLl8uo0nhfCzE5tzFr0T3Iq772A 8tnylvnWdz6 8qse/qL0GxW6fkIBsitiCD6nyjRbvHd8Ztx4/66Yc9smqiYNjJMYNjN3Eg5i9hhLGi1jQMGwxZzzC2GLsYqa WFWBUwqmUkUSYMEDIZOVRh475GValVSDbMx1AGhPNf0keIkyrB 0jEfdVTbvYHhm9F g/r9IPxN42yM4Pi9L7sfGPDW TuP9o/nMSwO fpEqRe9C6qag1Nh37uj/EPQ/Uf0limScd 4EWUtMepZXDKSCOQRLnp crcWD/UJlnx77jbDPXVaLC6lWckKu19SvxE2GPj9Oz60NpKEDYddb nImLTExMhBbVsgf5u06KmXVWFRR0bJ6nXlWezorb8Pu821x/OY/W8tjYHHxcfDWjD57zySByPXyn08DQ4AmO8NeJg1TVZig2AbUj9 31A3NXTfXkUrbS4ethsETpwx1HLy5eVSYwLmTYwDmUyDsaLWGF saK2NAw3MExkmMGZJr5YRTPs6Wl1tnsqXs13dqltb89CeR9c61 l9byRZlPqsH8OlT7qb/v8506CordcSFi8T5OiUGBsc/MT6u194E7nToCrrpuVZQ6uh5 E0HUcxbukXdPpoFK2hbrXDb7gCfdA9OQJ06O4yzZTKy9MyjlOB 5gcGbjwllWLm34e/wmT2oH7p3o6/OfJ0WPpWbTvAOZ06DItYeIs5nToqYTQbTp0So//9k=

Gosh, does it correlate with good looks and talent then? Although to be honest I don't find Javier Bardem very good looking...extremely talented, yes, handsome, no. No question about the other two, though.

Drac II
22-09-15, 20:21
I did read it in the 1990's. Actually I read it while doing my research on the Goths during the 1990's while I was getting my masters in history. So I got the date wrong. Big deal. It was a long time ago.

The one who give further evidence of strangeness is you: OK, I guess you read Heather's book but why don't you tell us all about how much your read, your ethnicity, and education? I am guessing you have a BA??? You don't want to give us the information because you want no one to know. Right? I bet you don't even have a job and stay all day bored putting your two cents to every website that deals with genetics. Right?

Why do you keep asking such strange personal questions? And why do you think it has any bearing on what is being talked about in any of these threads? Bottom line: you make a lot of strange claims which more often than not you can't back up.

Drac II
22-09-15, 20:28
Here are some evidence of Berber mixture in Spain: Antonio Banderas was born in Almeria. This region was heavily populated by Berbers. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBwgHBgkIBwgKCgkLDRYPDQwMDRsUFRAWIB0iIiAdHx 8kKDQsJCYxJx8fLT0tMTU3Ojo6Iys/RD84QzQ5OjcBCgoKDQwNGg8PGjclHyU3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nz c3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3N//AABEIAIEAZAMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAcAAAABwEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQIEBQYHAwj/xABEEAACAQMBBQUEBgcECwAAAAABAgMABBEFBhIhMUEHEyJRYR RxgaEyQpGxwdEVIyRSYnLwNkOS8QgzNFRkc3R1srPD/8QAGQEAAgMBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQF/8QAJBEAAgMAAQIGAwAAAAAAAAAAAAECAxESIUETFSIxUWEEFFL/2gAMAwEAAhEDEQA/ANnzSCKOioASaKlUliAMnlQARIHMiq7ru2Wh6NKILy8UTHmi8S vHr5VUO1Lbx9OaTSdHcC6VT382P9UCOQ8zx Hv5Yzd3M9y8rPvuzHfaSRiWB6knrQPDfr/ALTNAtJgiTG4BznuQDjH5070TbzRdWkEQnFvIeQmYA/fXm4KB4pC4JwwKjl5ZpxA0ib4j3yycS5PADzFAYer4pElXfidX XzU5FHWPdmu3U0E/wCjNUk72NlAildgCmAeBPX/AD91bCjb8auOTDIoEN9Qtzd2NxbK 4ZomQNjOMgjNMe5vbK0tLWzkixDAsbPJAzAkADPBhjgDw9R5cZ Y0VAEHLNrW94PZQOP0rZz1P8AGOmKFTlCgB3mhRChQADVP7UdX 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Javier Bardem is actually part Berber as his father or mother comes from the Canary Islands: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBwgHBgkIBwgKCgkLDRYPDQwMDRsUFRAWIB0iIiAdHx 8kKDQsJCYxJx8fLT0tMTU3Ojo6Iys/RD84QzQ5OjcBCgoKDQwNGg8PGjclHyU3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nz c3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3N//AABEIALoAfQMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAcAAAABwEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAgMEBQYHAAj/xABAEAACAQMCAwUFBgMECwAAAAABAgMABBEFIRIxQQYHEyJRFG FxgaEVMkKRscEzUtFygqLCCCMkNkNidJKy0vD/xAAZAQACAwEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQIDBAX/xAAhEQACAgIBBQEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAQIRAyExBBITQVEyIv/aAAwDAQACEQMRAD8Aw2l4xx7UhSkZZd1oANKgjYFTvQi4lBUhz kUmzEtk0B91ADqS9mmTgkbynnjrTU7HFKRxlhxZwKkoNLjMBkn mZSRlVUc6jaiSpyInNGCOV4hy9amINNts5HiS9McsUa64BiBol WJDyxv dLvXofj jTTHdSTx8NGvm8 SeLNSVnY28sLhZ1XIIBY/dxv86jru0dGZS4Yg mM0rtkqaQaylU8WP0prqR84p1pcRBlDDcdDTbV8CYAelNckXwM 03bFGlUCiKN6PJyFTICYrq4c6MfjQML1pwAAm1IyjhY0onmGKA Em 9RgMCgYDi2pQY4SKQhbTzxTIhGRxU99sY3EguRmPkgH4eWMflT 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So as you go south the more Berber and Jewish DNA you will find.http://www.eupedia.com/forum/image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBwgHBgkIBwgKCgkLDRYPDQwMDRsUFRAWIB0iIiAdHx 8kKDQsJCYxJx8fLT0tMTU3Ojo6Iys/RD84QzQ5OjcBCgoKDQwNGg8PGjclHyU3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nz c3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3N//AABEIAFUAjgMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAbAAACAwEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAADBAIFBgAHAf/EADYQAAICAgECAwYCCAcAAAAAAAECAAMEESEFEgYxQRMiUWFxg SORBzNCUmKhscEUMnLC0eHw/8QAGQEAAwEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQF/8QAHxEBAQACAgMBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAECEQMhEjFBMnEi/9oADAMBAAIRAxEAPwCxVIVUn1VhVWVpFqITiTVJNVhAsZIBJ97 IULKPxh1luidL9pTo5FrdlY HHJ 0V6CfW t4XSKt331 19Kt 8ftKNvG9KIXelQP2QW0T9tTzwX23WvkXM1jluWY s WVtkuWJBYjQ00jyazFon8VZGXkFg7oP4XO eNy66f1K61nsrziFHCliSD Znnox8itwGQ/Y7jSZN1TBQtvHoBwPrItq5/HsnTMtczGRifxNe9xrZ IjbJMB0bqjVojHJIYHkOrD8ps j57ZqN7Vkbf6srvkfOXhnvpnyYa7hkpBskbKwbLNGRNlgXWOOs C6wBN1gHHMbdYu4ga4VYVVkVhBAkgsmqz4sIBAOCzzf9KWSX6l iYagEpV3cee2PO/ss9KE8t/ShWa vV2/s2Yy XyJEnL0rD2xjooKpvez6TUeFumVXBmt94 kywUlwR5 gm/wDDmHbiYa2X8Ow4HwEwzuo6cJur/A6NhD9ZUp svcbw3022sAY6DY8wvMpMbqnTxYK7M2tW G96M1XSMyqxDqxGA9Vbcym99ui610AvgrpWQrVW95RhrSnWvnM 10TEs6Tm5OBkv7SyjJNalvMqfI/3 83lGTUHfdq 6fU6mf6slZ8T0WJ2WJkIWLodgOq6IP2AP3M2wnbDk9GGWDYQzQ bTpcZdxA2Rh4u8RFrBFnHMasi1nnA1wsIsEsIsCEXyhBBrJrGE xML486QM7qtN1pdazj9isvOmBYnfyA39dibmUfij2wWh60DL2W KN/vnWv5d0jk/Na8WrnNvLaOmth9aqpvG/eBB1wR8p6Dm1BqiOezWtDz1KjHwbLlwMjJBF2OWW3vHJO PrNAWB138jU5Mst9uzDHXTNY Ne bRjLg4y47vpnuffYP3j/wACOWYtnScus46BEfYY1sdEf 3NJg1Y97f5QGHkSIn1l1bKZS3u1nXx19Yb3F OkfFGPbbiYd JQbxcgDKbAvI4PqPSO HOm/4asWW4wpdNaZbC6sSOdHfpvX2l50CmjN6WtGUocIeN62I9nrXX jV11KFVTry1NOP3GXN arWMG0mTBtOpwBPAPDtAOYgXsi1kYsMVsPMDXKwiwawixkmsII NYRYBMSv8QO1fSb2VA5AB0flzLARTrF JjdLyruoN24qVk2cb4 Xzivc0curtk8EjIoqykJFd1YPa3nv/ryjKkMdE8xLCvqGCv GBSqpinZvlQDwPy1CG9ewup49NTis PQl rTCtXG/Fc 6v8AWIZCZFt9gw8ntNz92 wHn4cyFrPkVL7BlJT9knz cljnNFoFeTjV9vJ93RHz84YyLl8uo0nhfCzE5tzFr0T3Iq772A 8tnylvnWdz6 8qse/qL0GxW6fkIBsitiCD6nyjRbvHd8Ztx4/66Yc9smqiYNjJMYNjN3Eg5i9hhLGi1jQMGwxZzzC2GLsYqa WFWBUwqmUkUSYMEDIZOVRh475GValVSDbMx1AGhPNf0keIkyrB 0jEfdVTbvYHhm9F g/r9IPxN42yM4Pi9L7sfGPDW TuP9o/nMSwO fpEqRe9C6qag1Nh37uj/EPQ/Uf0limScd 4EWUtMepZXDKSCOQRLnp crcWD/UJlnx77jbDPXVaLC6lWckKu19SvxE2GPj9Oz60NpKEDYddb nImLTExMhBbVsgf5u06KmXVWFRR0bJ6nXlWezorb8Pu821x/OY/W8tjYHHxcfDWjD57zySByPXyn08DQ4AmO8NeJg1TVZig2AbUj9 31A3NXTfXkUrbS4ethsETpwx1HLy5eVSYwLmTYwDmUyDsaLWGF saK2NAw3MExkmMGZJr5YRTPs6Wl1tnsqXs13dqltb89CeR9c61 l9byRZlPqsH8OlT7qb/v8506CordcSFi8T5OiUGBsc/MT6u194E7nToCrrpuVZQ6uh5 E0HUcxbukXdPpoFK2hbrXDb7gCfdA9OQJ06O4yzZTKy9MyjlOB 5gcGbjwllWLm34e/wmT2oH7p3o6/OfJ0WPpWbTvAOZ06DItYeIs5nToqYTQbTp0So//9k=

Canarian or Berber or not, Javier Bardem looks a lot like American actor Jeffrey Dean Morgan. I suppose you will also claim to discover "Berber genes" in the fellow.

Kardu
22-09-15, 21:02
Here are some evidence of Berber mixture in Spain: Antonio Banderas was born in Almeria. This region was heavily populated by Berbers. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBwgHBgkIBwgKCgkLDRYPDQwMDRsUFRAWIB0iIiAdHx 8kKDQsJCYxJx8fLT0tMTU3Ojo6Iys/RD84QzQ5OjcBCgoKDQwNGg8PGjclHyU3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nz c3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3N//AABEIAIEAZAMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAcAAAABwEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQIEBQYHAwj/xABEEAACAQMBBQUEBgcECwAAAAABAgMABBEFBhIhMUEHEyJRYR RxgaEyQpGxwdEVIyRSYnLwNkOS8QgzNFRkc3R1srPD/8QAGQEAAgMBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQF/8QAJBEAAgMAAQIGAwAAAAAAAAAAAAECAxESIUETFSIxUWEEFFL/2gAMAwEAAhEDEQA/ANnzSCKOioASaKlUliAMnlQARIHMiq7ru2Wh6NKILy8UTHmi8S vHr5VUO1Lbx9OaTSdHcC6VT382P9UCOQ8zx Hv5Yzd3M9y8rPvuzHfaSRiWB6knrQPDfr/ALTNAtJgiTG4BznuQDjH5070TbzRdWkEQnFvIeQmYA/fXm4KB4pC4JwwKjl5ZpxA0ib4j3yycS5PADzFAYer4pElXfidX XzU5FHWPdmu3U0E/wCjNUk72NlAildgCmAeBPX/AD91bCjb8auOTDIoEN9Qtzd2NxbK 4ZomQNjOMgjNMe5vbK0tLWzkixDAsbPJAzAkADPBhjgDw9R5cZ Y0VAEHLNrW94PZQOP0rZz1P8AGOmKFTlCgB3mhRChQADVP7UdX 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So as you go south the more Berber and Jewish DNA you will find.http://www.eupedia.com/forum/image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBwgHBgkIBwgKCgkLDRYPDQwMDRsUFRAWIB0iIiAdHx 8kKDQsJCYxJx8fLT0tMTU3Ojo6Iys/RD84QzQ5OjcBCgoKDQwNGg8PGjclHyU3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nz c3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3N//AABEIAFUAjgMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAbAAACAwEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAADBAIFBgAHAf/EADYQAAICAgECAwYCCAcAAAAAAAECAAMEESEFEgYxQRMiUWFxg SORBzNCUmKhscEUMnLC0eHw/8QAGQEAAwEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQF/8QAHxEBAQACAgMBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAECEQMhEjFBMnEi/9oADAMBAAIRAxEAPwCxVIVUn1VhVWVpFqITiTVJNVhAsZIBJ97 IULKPxh1luidL9pTo5FrdlY HHJ 0V6CfW t4XSKt331 19Kt 8ftKNvG9KIXelQP2QW0T9tTzwX23WvkXM1jluWY s WVtkuWJBYjQ00jyazFon8VZGXkFg7oP4XO eNy66f1K61nsrziFHCliSD Znnox8itwGQ/Y7jSZN1TBQtvHoBwPrItq5/HsnTMtczGRifxNe9xrZ IjbJMB0bqjVojHJIYHkOrD8ps j57ZqN7Vkbf6srvkfOXhnvpnyYa7hkpBskbKwbLNGRNlgXWOOs C6wBN1gHHMbdYu4ga4VYVVkVhBAkgsmqz4sIBAOCzzf9KWSX6l iYagEpV3cee2PO/ss9KE8t/ShWa vV2/s2Yy XyJEnL0rD2xjooKpvez6TUeFumVXBmt94 kywUlwR5 gm/wDDmHbiYa2X8Ow4HwEwzuo6cJur/A6NhD9ZUp svcbw3022sAY6DY8wvMpMbqnTxYK7M2tW G96M1XSMyqxDqxGA9Vbcym99ui610AvgrpWQrVW95RhrSnWvnM 10TEs6Tm5OBkv7SyjJNalvMqfI/3 83lGTUHfdq 6fU6mf6slZ8T0WJ2WJkIWLodgOq6IP2AP3M2wnbDk9GGWDYQzQ bTpcZdxA2Rh4u8RFrBFnHMasi1nnA1wsIsEsIsCEXyhBBrJrGE xML486QM7qtN1pdazj9isvOmBYnfyA39dibmUfij2wWh60DL2W KN/vnWv5d0jk/Na8WrnNvLaOmth9aqpvG/eBB1wR8p6Dm1BqiOezWtDz1KjHwbLlwMjJBF2OWW3vHJO PrNAWB138jU5Mst9uzDHXTNY Ne bRjLg4y47vpnuffYP3j/wACOWYtnScus46BEfYY1sdEf 3NJg1Y97f5QGHkSIn1l1bKZS3u1nXx19Yb3F OkfFGPbbiYd JQbxcgDKbAvI4PqPSO HOm/4asWW4wpdNaZbC6sSOdHfpvX2l50CmjN6WtGUocIeN62I9nrXX jV11KFVTry1NOP3GXN arWMG0mTBtOpwBPAPDtAOYgXsi1kYsMVsPMDXKwiwawixkmsII NYRYBMSv8QO1fSb2VA5AB0flzLARTrF JjdLyruoN24qVk2cb4 Xzivc0curtk8EjIoqykJFd1YPa3nv/ryjKkMdE8xLCvqGCv GBSqpinZvlQDwPy1CG9ewup49NTis PQl rTCtXG/Fc 6v8AWIZCZFt9gw8ntNz92 wHn4cyFrPkVL7BlJT9knz cljnNFoFeTjV9vJ93RHz84YyLl8uo0nhfCzE5tzFr0T3Iq772A 8tnylvnWdz6 8qse/qL0GxW6fkIBsitiCD6nyjRbvHd8Ztx4/66Yc9smqiYNjJMYNjN3Eg5i9hhLGi1jQMGwxZzzC2GLsYqa WFWBUwqmUkUSYMEDIZOVRh475GValVSDbMx1AGhPNf0keIkyrB 0jEfdVTbvYHhm9F g/r9IPxN42yM4Pi9L7sfGPDW TuP9o/nMSwO fpEqRe9C6qag1Nh37uj/EPQ/Uf0limScd 4EWUtMepZXDKSCOQRLnp crcWD/UJlnx77jbDPXVaLC6lWckKu19SvxE2GPj9Oz60NpKEDYddb nImLTExMhBbVsgf5u06KmXVWFRR0bJ6nXlWezorb8Pu821x/OY/W8tjYHHxcfDWjD57zySByPXyn08DQ4AmO8NeJg1TVZig2AbUj9 31A3NXTfXkUrbS4ethsETpwx1HLy5eVSYwLmTYwDmUyDsaLWGF saK2NAw3MExkmMGZJr5YRTPs6Wl1tnsqXs13dqltb89CeR9c61 l9byRZlPqsH8OlT7qb/v8506CordcSFi8T5OiUGBsc/MT6u194E7nToCrrpuVZQ6uh5 E0HUcxbukXdPpoFK2hbrXDb7gCfdA9OQJ06O4yzZTKy9MyjlOB 5gcGbjwllWLm34e/wmT2oH7p3o6/OfJ0WPpWbTvAOZ06DItYeIs5nToqYTQbTp0So//9k=

I've met hundreds if not thousands of berbers. None of them looked like Penelope, alas.. not even close

Johannes
23-09-15, 16:29
Sorry. This Chinese "new" school I am working at has a lot of internet problems and makes it difficult to post.

Here are the pictures of Antonio Banderas and Javier Bardem. I will also add Pedro Almodovar and Rafael Nadal. I am not saying they are pure Berbers or Jews. OK? What I am saying is they reveal their Berber/Jewish ancestry. Many Berbers and even more Jews converted during the Reconquista. These persons reveal their non-European background. They all either come from Andalusia or their ancestors originated there. Almodovar even has an Arabic surname but he comes from Castile-La Mancha. Nadal is from the Balearic Islands. But since most Spaniards have moved extensively all over Spain, I will bet money they all hailed from Andalusia or regions next to it.
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Johannes
23-09-15, 16:33
I guess it does not want to copy more pictures. Here is Pedro;http://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=OIP.M1b63dd9a67c4abc2b27d4b35a1d89bbaH2&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0he clearly shows characteristics of Berbers or Arabs, even Jews.http://cn.bing.com/s/loading_lg_w.gifhttp://cn.bing.com/s/loading_lg_w.gif

Johannes
23-09-15, 16:36
I've met hundreds if not thousands of berbers. None of them looked like Penelope, alas.. not even close

Wow! really? I see you come from Georgia. How did you meet so many Berbers? Actually I said she looked more "Jewish" -- Sephardic, not Berber.

Kardu
23-09-15, 20:33
Wow! really? I see you come from Georgia. How did you meet so many Berbers? Actually I said she looked more "Jewish" -- Sephardic, not Berber.

I've spent many years living in the Netherlands, Spain, Italy where they have large North African immigration.

Kardu
24-09-15, 01:51
Wow! really? I see you come from Georgia. How did you meet so many Berbers? Actually I said she looked more "Jewish" -- Sephardic, not Berber.

I've spent several years in the Netherlands, Italy and Spain. They have large North African population.

Drac II
24-09-15, 08:12
Sorry. This Chinese "new" school I am working at has a lot of internet problems and makes it difficult to post.

Here are the pictures of Antonio Banderas and Javier Bardem. I will also add Pedro Almodovar and Rafael Nadal. I am not saying they are pure Berbers or Jews. OK? What I am saying is they reveal their Berber/Jewish ancestry. Many Berbers and even more Jews converted during the Reconquista. These persons reveal their non-European background. They all either come from Andalusia or their ancestors originated there. Almodovar even has an Arabic surname but he comes from Castile-La Mancha. Nadal is from the Balearic Islands. But since most Spaniards have moved extensively all over Spain, I will bet money they all hailed from Andalusia or regions next to it.
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The major flaw with your theory here is that you can find people with such features in places where there hardly were any Jews or Berbers.

Plus you have already been informed that the number of Berbers and Jews in Iberia was actually comparatively small. Jews, for example, only made up about 1-2% of the population. Even if all of them had been converted to Christianity and assimilated, they would hardly have had much of an influence on the host population.

Kardu
24-09-15, 13:32
Any photos of Berbers or Sephardim who look like Penelope or Banderas are welcome (general mediterranean look doesn't count)

Sigfrido
24-09-15, 19:44
I've spent several years in the Netherlands, Italy and Spain. They have large North African population.

I see North Africans on daily basis and the Cruz sisters can blend among them easily. Nadal is too robust and look typical Iberian to me.

Angela
24-09-15, 20:58
I think there's a lot of generalizing going on and a lot of confusion of terms. The Berbers of North Africa are those North Africans who have retained at least a partial use of the Berber language and some degree of their tribal structure and their ancient culture. They are usually pretty endogamous. The level of SSA among them varies depending on the tribe and the country. Some, like the Mozabites, have quite a bit.
http://www.siwel.info/photo/art/default/6825934-10431507.jpg?v=1405704005

Other groups look like they have a lot less, and some among them just look southern European:
http://a406.idata.over-blog.com/3/21/64/53/NOUVEL-AN-BERBER-2010/semaine-kabylie-novembre-2010/100_0512.jpg


Likewise there are a lot of North Africans who don't primarily identify as Berbers. They also vary in terms of SSA admixture, with some urban, upper class people not showing a lot of SSA but most of them showing what is close to what the studies say, which is about 20-25% SSA ancestry.

The people who have gone to Europe recently do seem to have at least that amount of SSA ancestry. On the other hand, the ones who have 3-5% would probably go unnoticed. There are a lot of white South Americans with that amount of SSA.

All this commentary about what Berbers looked like (i.e.how much SSA they had, which seems so important to people) in the early Middle Ages when some of them went to Europe is just speculation. From contemporary depictions, it seems that some predominantly SSA people were part of the forces, and undoubtedly some mixed people also participated. Many probably looked pretty similar to southern Europeans. We just don't know. Nobody was around to do a scientific study.

This stuff about famous Spanish actors is just silly. They look Mediterranean, which should hardly be a surprise, and that goes for Penelope Cruz too. And yes, there are Sephardic Jews who look a bit like her, but it's not because she looks like a Sephardic Jew, because she doesn't; it's because Sephardic (and North African) Jews can sometimes look pretty generically southern European.

http://images.askmen.com/women/galleries/actress/emmanuelle-chriqui/picture-1-136926106591.jpg

Probably this is a more common look, however.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Unp9TupCSEY/mqdefault.jpg



Sigfrido:I see North Africans on daily basis and the Cruz sisters can blend among them easily.

Most North African women in Europe don't look like Penelope Cruz at all, and not just because she's a beautiful actress. There are consequences here for deliberately provocative comments.

Drac II
25-09-15, 09:43
Nadal is too robust and look typical Iberian to me.

Nadal doesn't even look much like his very own relatives, who look way more like average Iberians than he does:

http://www.primacia.org/imagenescepaec/cultura/4/rafa4.gif

Drac II
25-09-15, 16:24
All this commentary about what Berbers looked like (i.e.how much SSA they had, which seems so important to people) in the early Middle Ages when some of them went to Europe is just speculation. From contemporary depictions, it seems that some predominantly SSA people were part of the forces, and undoubtedly some mixed people also participated. Many probably looked pretty similar to southern Europeans. We just don't know. Nobody was around to do a scientific study.


Do we need a scientific study to plainly see how they were portrayed by others and by themselves? The evidence seems pretty clear: the sub-Saharan types among them were minimal. A look at contemporary sources by people who were in contact with them shows this pretty well. Take a look at the many drawings representing them in the "Cantigas" manuscript of king Alfonso the Wise, or the Byzantine chronicle of John Skylitzes. In this last one we have drawings representing Byzantines, Greeks and/or Italians in confrontation with various Muslim forces, specially from Fatimid North Africa, and once again the only way of telling them apart from one another is by the garbs they wear. Obviously the Byzantine scribes who illuminated the chronicle did not see the Muslims of the time as being some sort of exotic strange people very physically different from them, or Greeks, or Italians.

We also have coins and busts depicting Berbers from Roman times, when some of them also went to Europe (some of them even made it all the way up to Britain via the Roman armies.) A similar pattern repeats itself in these earlier times: almost all the depictions show Caucasian people.

Even older are the depictions by the Egyptians (who were North Africans themselves.) Same pattern: almost all the depictions of themselves and their Libyan neighbors show Caucasoid types. When they painted Nubians or Ethiopians, on the other hand, we usually see Negroid or Negroid-Caucasoid mixed types.

Contrary to what some people (specially those with Afrocentric agendas) want to argue, these were not some sort of abstract "conventions". When these ancient and medieval artists wanted to portray exotic (from their point of view) looking people, they very easily did so. We have examples of Negroid types in Middle Eastern, North African and European ancient and medieval art. So they were not ignorant of what these peoples looked like, but nevertheless they only rarely portray them. The reason should be obvious: to them these peoples were an exotic foreign element, not something they would commonly see around them every day. When they portray their own people, on the other hand, they paint what we see: Caucasian types.

Tomenable
25-09-15, 17:38
The fact that they spoke a Germanic language does not mean that they must have originated in Scandinavia. Germanic peoples were found elsewhere too.

Afro-Americans speak a Germanic language (AAVE - Afro-American Vernacular English), yet they clearly did not originate in Scandinavia.

Ashkenazi Jews also spoke a Germanic language - Yiddish - but they also did not originate in Scandinavia just like Afro-Americans didn't.

Such and other similar groups prove that you can speak a Germanic language without having any Scandinavian roots, indeed.

Though Afro-Americans might actually have some Scandinavian admixture. They are 15% - 20% European, part of it is Scandinavian.

From another forum I know a Black Afro-American guy with typically Scandinavian Y-DNA haplogroup I1.

Johannes
25-09-15, 18:46
Any photos of Berbers or Sephardim who look like Penelope or Banderas are welcome (general mediterranean look doesn't count)

What do you want? exact or similar pictures of Penelope Cruz or Antonio Banderas? It seems kind of impossible doesn't it? How many Berbers or Jews look like movie stars unless they are heavily mixed with Europeans?

Johannes
25-09-15, 18:53
Do we need a scientific study to plainly see how they were portrayed by others and by themselves? The evidence seems pretty clear: the sub-Saharan types among them were minimal. A look at contemporary sources by people who were in contact with them shows this pretty well. Take a look at the many drawings representing them in the "Cantigas" manuscript of king Alfonso the Wise, or the Byzantine chronicle of John Skylitzes. In this last one we have drawings representing Byzantines, Greeks and/or Italians in confrontation with various Muslim forces, specially from Fatimid North Africa, and once again the only way of telling them apart from one another is by the garbs they wear. Obviously the Byzantine scribes who illuminated the chronicle did not see the Muslims of the time as being some sort of exotic strange people very physically different from them, or Greeks, or Italians.

We also have coins and busts depicting Berbers from Roman times, when some of them also went to Europe (some of them even made it all the way up to Britain via the Roman armies.) A similar pattern repeats itself in these earlier times: almost all the depictions show Caucasian people.

Even older are the depictions by the Egyptians (who were North Africans themselves.) Same pattern: almost all the depictions of themselves and their Libyan neighbors show Caucasoid types. When they painted Nubians or Ethiopians, on the other hand, we usually see Negroid or Negroid-Caucasoid mixed types.

Contrary to what some people (specially those with Afrocentric agendas) want to argue, these were not some sort of abstract "conventions". When these ancient and medieval artists wanted to portray exotic (from their point of view) looking people, they very easily did so. We have examples of Negroid types in Middle Eastern, North African and European ancient and medieval art. So they were not ignorant of what these peoples looked like, but nevertheless they only rarely portray them. The reason should be obvious: to them these peoples were an exotic foreign element, not something they would commonly see around them every day. When they portray their own people, on the other hand, they paint what we see: Caucasian types.

So what? Why do you keep harping about Arabs and Berbers being similar to Europeans??? Caucasian people range from brown to near white. Indians and Pakistanis are very dark, --some even black! -- yet they are considered "Caucasians." In Spain the Moors were very dark and that is why they were named as such. You keep trying to convince us of something that cannot be convinced. Stop using your "paint" analogy and use some common sense.

Johannes
25-09-15, 19:12
The major flaw with your theory here is that you can find people with such features in places where there hardly were any Jews or Berbers.

Plus you have already been informed that the number of Berbers and Jews in Iberia was actually comparatively small. Jews, for example, only made up about 1-2% of the population. Even if all of them had been converted to Christianity and assimilated, they would hardly have had much of an influence on the host population.

Where do you get your figures? If you read Fletcher he claimed that about 1 million North Africans/Middle Eastern people immigrated into Andalusia from 9th to 12th centuries. Andalusia or SW Iberia is about the size of England (minus Wales). There were about 4-5 millions persons in the whole peninsula up to about the 12th century. If we admit 2-3 million people living in southern Iberia or Andalusia it will make about 20-30% or so non-Europeans! Of course the majority were expelled, killed, or left on their own free will. But 1-2% is ridiculous!!

I am not exactly sure about Jewish population figures but they must have been somewhat significant in Andalusia. I will guess 10% before expulsion? So if we take both the Berber and Jewish figures they will certainly be higher that 1-2%!!

Johannes
25-09-15, 20:22
Nadal doesn't even look much like his very own relatives, who look way more like average Iberians than he does:

http://www.primacia.org/imagenescepaec/cultura/4/rafa4.gif

Which proves he is mixed. Don't get fooled by women dyeing their hair or wear make up to make themselves look "better or different."

Degredado
25-09-15, 21:24
While I don't doubt that Nadal could possibly have some distant Jewish or Berber ancestry, I'm pretty sure that if he didn't spend God knows how many hours a day playing tennis under the sun, he would look exactly like his dad, who couldn't look more typically Greek, Spanish or Italian (Greek, if I had to pick). Let's keep in mind that even Federer the Swiss always looks somewhat "dark", due to all that sun exposure. I honestly don't see any feature on Nadal, or on his parents, that screams Jewish or Berber, although, as others have pointed out, many Jews and many "pure" Berbers are very much interchangeable with regular Southern Europeans. Just to use some examples of people whose pictures have been posted on this thread, if Emanuelle Chriqui (Morrocan Jew) was Spanish and if Penelope Cruz was Jewish (think Natalie Portman), no one would raise an eyebrow. Although Penelope Cruz has more of that distinct "Gabriela Sabatini" Italianesque/Argentinesque look, with the long nose and the big, expressive eyes. My favorite type, if you ask me. :smile:

Kardu
25-09-15, 21:53
What do you want? exact or similar pictures of Penelope Cruz or Antonio Banderas? It seems kind of impossible doesn't it? How many Berbers or Jews look like movie starts unless they are heavily mixed with Europeans?
Photos of people with similar facial architecture, if you please


For example average Moroccan Berber I can recognize 1000 out of 1000. They have very spcific features. Same goes for Kabyl.

Johannes
25-09-15, 22:13
Gosh, does it correlate with good looks and talent then? Although to be honest I don't find Javier Bardem very good looking...extremely talented, yes, handsome, no. No question about the other two, though.

Angela: it has nothing to do with looks or with talent. Jewish producers in Hollywood only want to portray Spaniards as "exotic", not what they really are. It's good for business. It sells pictures. Penelope Cruz and Antonio Banderas represent the "Moorish look" and that's why they are sold as a commodity. I personally don't think they are very talented. They only sell their faces. Javier Bardem is more talented but not good looking.

Drac II
26-09-15, 06:39
Afro-Americans speak a Germanic language (AAVE - Afro-American Vernacular English), yet they clearly did not originate in Scandinavia.

Ashkenazi Jews also spoke a Germanic language - Yiddish - but they also did not originate in Scandinavia just like Afro-Americans didn't.

Such and other similar groups prove that you can speak a Germanic language without having any Scandinavian roots, indeed.

Though Afro-Americans might actually have some Scandinavian admixture. They are 15% - 20% European, part of it is Scandinavian.

From another forum I know a Black Afro-American guy with typically Scandinavian Y-DNA haplogroup I1.

I would guess that the majority of Euro DNA among black Americans would be British, as that is the European group that they have been in contact with for the longest time.

Drac II
26-09-15, 06:55
So what? Why do you keep harping about Arabs and Berbers being similar to Europeans??? Caucasian people range from brown to near white. Indians and Pakistanis are very dark, --some even black! -- yet they are considered "Caucasians." In Spain the Moors were very dark and that is why they were named as such. You keep trying to convince us of something that cannot be convinced. Stop using your "paint" analogy and use some common sense.

First of all, it is much more than just skin tones, which as you seem to be aware of it can be deceiving when it comes to race, plus the ancient and medieval pictorial evidence does not show what you claim. Just take a look at the "Cantigas" or the "Book of Games" of Alfonso X. Like 90% of the loads of "Moors" depicted in those manuscripts do not look "dark" at all, let alone "very dark". King Alfonso's court was very much in contact with the "Moors" (diplomatic envoys, prisoners of war, translators, etc.) so his scribes knew very well what they looked like. I find it very funny that you want to presume to know better than people who were actually there and therefore knew much better than you how things were like back then.

Drac II
26-09-15, 07:09
Where do you get your figures? If you read Fletcher he claimed that about 1 million North Africans/Middle Eastern people immigrated into Andalusia from 9th to 12th centuries. Andalusia or SW Iberia is about the size of England (minus Wales). There were about 4-5 millions persons in the whole peninsula up to about the 12th century. If we admit 2-3 million people living in southern Iberia or Andalusia it will make about 20-30% or so non-Europeans! Of course the majority were expelled, killed, or left on their own free will. But 1-2% is ridiculous!!

I am not exactly sure about Jewish population figures but they must have been somewhat significant in Andalusia. I will guess 10% before expulsion? So if we take both the Berber and Jewish figures they will certainly be higher that 1-2%!!

I already showed you the figures for the Berbers & Arabs, they were probably not even 5% of the population of Iberia. The Jews were even less. Regarding their percentage, see here, where I posted estimates by several scholars:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30556-Genetic-history-of-the-Iberian-Peninsula?p=442216&viewfull=1#post442216

So anywhere around 1-2%, give or take a bit. Hardly much to get excited about.

Drac II
26-09-15, 07:19
Which proves he is mixed. Don't get fooled by women dyeing their hair or wear make up to make themselves look "better or different."

Hardly, but it proves what we can see in plenty of other families from around the world: sometimes people within one family do not look much alike. Just look at Victoria Beckham and her parents:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/11/18/article-2509592-197E85EB00000578-389_634x406.jpg

And it has little to do with hair color, but more with facial traits. Nadal looks pretty different than his relatives. He looks sort of like the "oddball" in the family.

Angela
26-09-15, 15:39
Angela: it has nothing to do with looks or with talent. Jewish producers in Hollywood only want to portray Spaniards as "exotic", not what they really are. It's good for business. It sells pictures. Penelope Cruz and Antonio Banderas represent the "Moorish look" and that's why they are sold as a commodity. I personally don't think they are very talented. They only sell their faces. Javier Bardem is more talented but not good looking.

I'm afraid you totally misunderstood the "meaning" of my comment.

He hasn't aged very well, but I personally think Antonio Banderas in his prime was extremely attractive. Some of the reviews of his movie with Salma Hayek, "Desperado", basically said it was difficult to objectively critique the movie because the sheer beauty of those two actors was too distracting.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4325/596/1600/salma.jpgHowever, what I individually think, or you individually think, is not terribly relevant to your point.

Madison Avenue and Hollywood are in the sales business: products and movies. I've never worked in Hollywood, but I have worked on Madison Avenue, and I assure you that before an actor or actress is chosen for an ad they test market the h*** out of them. Hollywood does even more of it because more money is on the line. Leading ladies and leading men are chosen because people score them highly in "attractiveness". Now, in terms of "type of looks", there are certain stereotypes about what people look like in certain countries, stereotypes based on those people's experience, or sometimes lack of very much experience. Those stereotypes are shared by both the consumers of media and the creators of it. There you have a point. So, Americans think all Spaniards look like Hispanics, and all Italians look like southern Italians.

There's nothing nefarious about it even if it's incorrect. I haven't particularly liked being told over and over again here in the U.S. that I don't look Italian, when I look very typical of my area in Italy, but I just chalk it down to lack of experience. I don't think it's a conspiracy. Please peddle your Jewish conspiracy theories elsewhere. If you post them here again you'll get another infraction, or I might even do worse.

What you and your Italian counterparts also fail to understand is that Americans and people around the world think that this type, a "Mediterranean" type, if you will (among others), is attractive. The fact that you don't want your country of ancestry to be represented by people of brunette coloring, or Mediterranean cast of features, who are, by the way, the majority, is your problem, not that of Hollywood or Madison Avenue or anyone else. (You know, this stuff only works with people who have never set foot in these countries; I spent, among other trips, a whole semester in Barcelona. Lots of nice looking, charming guys, but never once did I think I was in Dublin.)

Btw, Penelope Cruz was celebrated in Spain before she was ever celebrated in America. You should read up on Spanish film. It's true, however, that I don't think she's ever been as good in American films as she has been in Spanish films, with the exception of Vicky Cristina Barcelona and perhaps Nine. (For comparison, watch "Volver". I adored the movie and her in it. In fact, I bought it. (Sophia Loren had the same problem. American directors don't know what to do with women like that...they don't quite seem to realize that women can be earthy, sexy, maternal, intelligent and funny all at the same time.)

http://www.movieactors.com/photos-stars/penelope-cruz-volver-12.jpg

Her eyes are just pools of sorrow in moments like this.

Some more Spanish actors:

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/[email protected]@._ V1._SX234_SY385_.jpg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTqtWm_DTKk)

Johannes
26-09-15, 17:09
As far as the Jews, yes 2-3% sounds about right, but then again the population doubled between the 8th and 13th centuries. So they might have increased to 4-5% of the Iberian population. As far as the Arabs, they did not even constitute 1% of 1%. They were basically 0%. And no wonder; who would travel 4,000 miles to Iberia from the Middle East! However, the Berbers were much more numerous. As far as I recall Richard Fetcher claimed that about 1 million Muslims (mostly Berbers) entered Al Andalus from 8th to 12th centuries. Now this is not just Andalusia but includes half of Portugal, Extremadura, Castilla-La Mancha, Murcia, Valencia, and southern Aragon. However, all these territories were reconquered by the end of the 12th and early 13th centuries. So that gives around 500 years of Berber presence in Iberia. So 5% is way to low. Where is your source for this 5%? It seems more like 10-20%. I know Fletcher wrote his book in 1993 and might be outdated but if you have some other author who can claim 5% I will be interested to see.

The fallacy of your arguments about percentages of Jews and Berbers/Arabs is that you confuse the whole with the part (or you ignore it). If you are talking about the whole of the population of Iberia, then yes, the Jews did constitute a non significant figure. But if you want to know about places were they lived, such as, Granada, Almeria, Toledo, Lisbon, and such, then they would have impacted the population in those cities more than the whole. The same can be said of the Berbers who lived in what is now southern Portugal, SW Andalusia, Granada, Almeria, and Valencia. Now if the Berbers who converted to Christianity mixed with the native population they would have impacted the people in those regions in a much larger manner.

Johannes
26-09-15, 17:45
"Please peddle your Jewish conspiracy theories elsewhere. If you post them here again you'll get another infraction, or I might even do worse."

What are you talking about??? Sometimes I wonder were you get your "conspiracies theories" from. It's a known fact that Jews run Hollywood. Jews know that. What? you don't know it? if you are that ignorant about this then you should educate yourself by google-in and find out. It's irritating to read from you that every time I or someone says something about Jews you get all defensive or bossy or worse -- dictatorial. It's like you were brainwashed or have some agenda that you want to protect. You were hired to be a moderator, not a tyrant. Last time I checked we live in a free society where free speech is allowed. If what I say about the Jews is true and upsets you then keep it to yourself and not try to slander me. I never insulted or said anything bad about the Jews in Hollywood. When you make such arrogant comments like the ones you post you only stifle the intelligence of the forum.

BTW -- I have seen all the movies by Penelope Cruz and she is not a great actress. Yes she does better in the Spanish versions but don't try to pretend you know more than others. It's all about perception and yours is not more valuable than others.

DuPidh
26-09-15, 18:07
[QUOTE=Drac II;467571]I would guess that the majority of Euro DNA among black Americans iwould be British, as that is the European group that they have been in contact with for the longest time.[/QUOTE



The impression is that Irish were more involved in mixing with blacks. Half of Black last names have an Irish origin. The mix was voluntary since the Irish were pushed by Brits to live either in black neighborhoods or next to them.I would say that English were an egalitarian ethnicity in America so the English black mixtures were forced, compared to Irish Black

Johannes
26-09-15, 20:40
I've met hundreds if not thousands of berbers. None of them looked like Penelope, alas.. not even close

Oh then you must be blind.

Kardu
26-09-15, 21:11
Oh then you must be blind.

Or you have a distorted vision due to wishful thinking

Tomenable
26-09-15, 21:43
In 2008 I was in Tunisia and I could see Berbers, including these living in Chenini:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chenini

But I don't remember seeing a clone of Penelope Cruz, so I can't say who is right.

Angela
26-09-15, 21:43
"Please peddle your Jewish conspiracy theories elsewhere. If you post them here again you'll get another infraction, or I might even do worse."

What are you talking about??? Sometimes I wonder were you get your "conspiracies theories" from. It's a known fact that Jews run Hollywood. Jews know that. What? you don't know it? if you are that ignorant about this then you should educate yourself by google-in and find out. It's irritating to read from you that every time I or someone says something about Jews you get all defensive or bossy or worse -- dictatorial. It's like you were brainwashed or have some agenda that you want to protect. You were hired to be a moderator, not a tyrant. Last time I checked we live in a free society where free speech is allowed. If what I say about the Jews is true and upsets you then keep it to yourself and not try to slander me. I never insulted or said anything bad about the Jews in Hollywood. When you make such arrogant comments like the ones you post you only stifle the intelligence of the forum.

BTW -- I have seen all the movies by Penelope Cruz and she is not a great actress. Yes she does better in the Spanish versions but don't try to pretend you know more than others. It's all about perception and yours is not more valuable than others.

Yes, there are a lot of Jewish people involved in the entertainment industry. That's completely different from saying there's some sort of Jewish conspiracy to make Spaniards or Italians look "dark". That's idiotic anti-Semitic racism and doesn't have any place on a genetics and history and archaeology forum. Do you want to post the Protocols of Zion next?

Free speech is a right guaranteed in the U.S. by the First Amendment that protects people from government intrusion or control over speech. It has nothing to do with the rules that might apply on a private website.

You're of course entitled to your opinion of anyone's acting skills; you're not entitled to distort the facts to imply that Penelope Cruz is a creature of Hollywood when in fact she had a prominent and valued place in Spanish film long before Hollywood ever heard of her.

Sile
26-09-15, 22:18
Hardly, but it proves what we can see in plenty of other families from around the world: sometimes people within one family do not look much alike. Just look at Victoria Beckham and her parents:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/11/18/article-2509592-197E85EB00000578-389_634x406.jpg

And it has little to do with hair color, but more with facial traits. Nadal looks pretty different than his relatives. He looks sort of like the "oddball" in the family.

father and daughter look berber , ie, berber facial traits ...........mother pure british

Angela
26-09-15, 23:45
This is why I try so hard to avoid these kinds of discussions. When looking at people to see correspondences and differences between different ethnic groups, pigmentation is one of the least informative measures. Bleaching your hair doesn't change your features from Mediterranean to British and constantly sporting a spray tan doesn't turn a British looking woman Mediterranean.

Forget it. It's a lost cause.

Drac II
27-09-15, 08:39
As far as the Jews, yes 2-3% sounds about right, but then again the population doubled between the 8th and 13th centuries. So they might have increased to 4-5% of the Iberian population. As far as the Arabs, they did not even constitute 1% of 1%. They were basically 0%. And no wonder; who would travel 4,000 miles to Iberia from the Middle East! However, the Berbers were much more numerous. As far as I recall Richard Fetcher claimed that about 1 million Muslims (mostly Berbers) entered Al Andalus from 8th to 12th centuries. Now this is not just Andalusia but includes half of Portugal, Extremadura, Castilla-La Mancha, Murcia, Valencia, and southern Aragon. However, all these territories were reconquered by the end of the 12th and early 13th centuries. So that gives around 500 years of Berber presence in Iberia. So 5% is way to low. Where is your source for this 5%? It seems more like 10-20%. I know Fletcher wrote his book in 1993 and might be outdated but if you have some other author who can claim 5% I will be interested to see.

The fallacy of your arguments about percentages of Jews and Berbers/Arabs is that you confuse the whole with the part (or you ignore it). If you are talking about the whole of the population of Iberia, then yes, the Jews did constitute a non significant figure. But if you want to know about places were they lived, such as, Granada, Almeria, Toledo, Lisbon, and such, then they would have impacted the population in those cities more than the whole. The same can be said of the Berbers who lived in what is now southern Portugal, SW Andalusia, Granada, Almeria, and Valencia. Now if the Berbers who converted to Christianity mixed with the native population they would have impacted the people in those regions in a much larger manner.

The probably less than 5% estimate for Berbers & Arabs in Iberia (all of it) was already discussed here:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27308-North-African-admixture-in-Europe-(Dienekes-K12b-2012)?p=462142&viewfull=1#post462142

The calculation is from a book on Mozarabs by Richard Hitchcock, an English history professor who specializes in Hispano-Muslim studies. For "Al-Andalus" more specifically, Fermín Miranda García and ‎Yolanda Guerrero Navarrete (two Spanish specialist on medieval history) give an estimate of under 10%. So even in the south their numbers were not very high. Needless to say, the Jews were even less.

Drac II
27-09-15, 08:48
I would guess that the majority of Euro DNA among black Americans iwould be British, as that is the European group that they have been in contact with for the longest time.



The impression is that Irish were more involved in mixing with blacks. Half of Black last names have an Irish origin. The mix was voluntary since the Irish were pushed by Brits to live either in black neighborhoods or next to them.I would say that English were an egalitarian ethnicity in America so the English black mixtures were forced, compared to Irish Black

I would think that the majority of the European DNA among modern black Americans was due to the custom that many slave owners had of "fooling around" with their female slaves (a famous example: Sally Hemings.) Since in the United States most of the slave owners were of British descent, I would guess that that's the most common source of European admixture among black Americans.

Kardu
27-09-15, 12:29
Perhaps I am really blind... Plus as you can see there os not even a general Berber look. Moroccan Berbers have diffenret features than those from Tunisia etc.

http://looklex.com/e.o/berbers.htm

Sigfrido
27-09-15, 14:28
Yes, there are a lot of Jewish people involved in the entertainment industry. That's completely different from saying there's some sort of Jewish conspiracy to make Spaniards or Italians look "dark". That's idiotic anti-Semitic racism and doesn't have any place on a genetics and history and archaeology forum. Do you want to post the Protocols of Zion next?Free speech is a right guaranteed in the U.S. by the First Amendment that protects people from government intrusion or control over speech. It has nothing to do with the rules that might apply on a private website. You're of course entitled to your opinion of anyone's acting skills; you're not entitled to distort the facts to imply that Penelope Cruz is a creature of Hollywood when in fact she had a prominent and valued place in Spanish film long before Hollywood ever heard of her.I dunno if it's racism or not (but in America everything is "racism" even claiming the most obvious things), but real Italian actors (including Southerners you dislike so much) in Italy look normal European, while "Italians" in Jewish mass medias (yes Jews controll 90% of American medias, even kids know that) look totally alien to an Italian. I was watching this Italian film with Turturro and he sticked out like a sore thumb among the Italians, both actos and random people in the streets. On the other hand in Italy we often see German and French films and Italians in them are represented quite well. I guess that since we get tens of millions of European tourists every year from Germany, Sweden,... it's harder to make them believe that we Italians look like some kind of MENA mixed with hispanics...

Tomenable
27-09-15, 15:53
"Italians" in Jewish mass medias (yes Jews controll 90% of American medias, even kids know that) look totally alien to an Italian.I think Italians in American medias are not Europe-born, but Italian-Americans.

Maybe simply Italian-Americans look different than Italians in Europe ???

We assume that emigrants were 100% representative of their source populations.

But in fact emigrants could be statistically a bit different from source populations.

Tomenable
27-09-15, 16:02
Not to mention that Italian-Americans who live in the USA for several generations, are no longer "pure Italians".

They are all mixed with Non-Italians. Maybe Italians in the USA had a tendency to mix with MENAs and Hispanics?

Tomenable
27-09-15, 16:13
Jews controll 90% of American medias

Source ??? Why not for example 30% or 40% ??? It would be a more realistic figure.

As Angela wrote, you are probably one of these guys who would like to have a credit card like this!: :confused2:

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/anti-semitic-bank-card-emerges-in-norway/2015/09/02/

http://southendpatriot.blogspot.com/2015/09/norwegian-bank-issues-anti-semitic.html

Johannes
27-09-15, 16:29
Yes, there are a lot of Jewish people involved in the entertainment industry. That's completely different from saying there's some sort of Jewish conspiracy to make Spaniards or Italians look "dark". That's idiotic anti-Semitic racism and doesn't have any place on a genetics and history and archaeology forum. Do you want to post the Protocols of Zion next?

Free speech is a right guaranteed in the U.S. by the First Amendment that protects people from government intrusion or control over speech. It has nothing to do with the rules that might apply on a private website.

You're of course entitled to your opinion of anyone's acting skills; you're not entitled to distort the facts to imply that Penelope Cruz is a creature of Hollywood when in fact she had a prominent and valued place in Spanish film long before Hollywood ever heard of her.

What is idiotic is you finding "conspiracies" every time someone mentions Jews or Aryans. You must have some complex or you have been brainwashed by political-correctness. For example, if I had said Italians or Germans or Eskimos run Hollywood you would have not run around like a chicken babbling about "anti-Semitism" or "Nordicists." You are naive: There is no conspiracy about Jewish producers making Spaniards or Italians look "dark." It's just how Hollywood made them in the beginning, for example, Rudolph Valentino. It sells movies. If you think Jewesh producers are trying to make Spaniards look like Moors then you are an idiot. What's is wrong with you is you make up things that don't exist and then you force them on this forum. If you think some statements are "anti-Semitic" then keep them to yourself and don't contaminate the forum with your prejudices or paranoid fantasies. All you do is make people more stupid with your emotionalism. Anyone who thinks when someone mentions "Jews run Hollywood" is anti-Semitic has some loose nuts in their brain or is hopelessly naive or worse.

The first amendment of free speech is supposed to protect us from the likes of you. This is what it says: "First Amendment - Religion and Expression. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." You have a tyrannical personality and this forum should be allowed to have free speech for all. You are acting like the government mentioned above! You act like some Bolshevik committee. It does not matter if there are Jewish racist or white racist or black racist or people from Mars who are racist. Everyone should be allowed to make their opinions in every forum. Do you own this forum? are you a goddess that knows everything?

I grew up in LA and have met and know Jews and everything under the sun. I even have Jewish friends. I have even debated with racists and they turned out to be more enlightened than you. Everyone should be allowed to express their own opinions no matter what they are. If not then you lower the standards and the culture. Look at what happened to Soviet Union where everyone was told what to think? Look at what happened in Muslim countries? They are or were all poor and backward. That is what you are trying to preach sister. Actually I think that this forum should only allow people with at least a BA degree and no prejudiced or people with agendas in the forum. Other wise there is no point.

About Penelope Cruz: I never slandered anything. You make things up in your head. She is a great beauty but not a great actress. It's my opinion. You are entitled to yours. Stop slandering me.

Tomenable
27-09-15, 16:32
For example, if I had said Italians or Germans or Eskimos run Hollywood

Well I'm quite sure that there are many e.g. self-declared German-Americans in Hollywood.

So claiming that Hollywood has been totally monopolized by Jews is, quite simply, not true.


There is no conspiracy about Jewish producers making Spaniards or Italians look "dark."If I want a "light" actor for my movie, I go take a Northern European. If I want a dark one, I look south instead.

Of course that there are a lot of "light" Spaniards or Italians as well, but there is simply no demand for them. There is demand for more exotic "dark" actors because there is shortage of them in a society of predominantly Northern origins such as the American society.

That's how I see this at least. There is no any political agenda involved, just the law of demand and supply.

And why should I be looking for "light" actors among Spaniards, if I can very easily find an even lighter Swede ???

You sound like someone being offended that there are not enough Pygmy players in the NBA. :laughing: :confused2:

Tomenable
27-09-15, 16:52
I grew up in LA and have met and know Jews and everything under the sun. I even have Jewish friends.Do you happen to know what ancestries do they declare in censuses? I'm curious about this because I can't see "Jewish ancestry" category. There was "religious response" category in U.S. 2000 census, which surely included some Jews, but it was not numerous enough to have them all.

Angela
27-09-15, 16:53
I dunno if it's racism or not (but in America everything is "racism" even claiming the most obvious things), but real Italian actors (including Southerners you dislike so much) in Italy look normal European, while "Italians" in Jewish mass medias (yes Jews controll 90% of American medias, even kids know that) look totally alien to an Italian. I was watching this Italian film with Turturro and he sticked out like a sore thumb among the Italians, both actos and random people in the streets. On the other hand in Italy we often see German and French films and Italians in them are represented quite well. I guess that since we get tens of millions of European tourists every year from Germany, Sweden,... it's harder to make them believe that we Italians look like some kind of MENA mixed with hispanics...

Yes, I dislike southern Italians so much that I fell in love with one, married him, and had children with him. I know and appreciate his ancestry more than he does, to the extent that I have researched his family tree, found his ancestral villages and brought him and his family to them and to a reunion with their distant relatives in Campania and Calabria. I love his family as my own. You are the one who seems to not love his own people, if you are indeed a southern Italian, Siegfried.

The vast majority of the Italians who immigrated to the U.S. came from southern Italy. Americans have formed their perception of what Italians look like from therm. There's nothing conspiratorial about it.

There are a variety of looks among these Italian-Americans; John Turturro's, who's a great actor and seems like a great guy, is just one of them. None of them look Swedish. If you don't like what they look like, that's you're problem, not theirs, not that of Americans, and not mine.

Some representative SouthernItalian-Americans, none of them admixed with anything:

Two of the nine Supreme Court Justices are Italian/American:

Scalia:
http://www.teenjury.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Scalia.jpg

Allito:
http://www.thelaw.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/justice-samuel-alito.jpg

There are many, many great Italian American jurists, but this is a particularly famous one, John Sirica, who presided at the Watergate Hearings:

http://image1.findagrave.com/photos250/photos/2009/146/19473_124343766189.jpg


Some Southern Italian-American political figures:

John Pastore, Senator and Governor of Rhode Island:
http://milestones.niaf.org/images/1907/1907_b.jpg

John Volpe, Governor of Massachusetts
http://i.ebayimg.com/16/%21B8e+EYwBmk%7E$%28KGrHqR,%21iwEzM04BcE3BM3JGNPm0 %21%7E%7E_35.JPG

Mario Cuomo, Governor of New York, darling of the Democrat Party:
http://www.conservapedia.com/images/thumb/b/bb/000_Mario_Cuomo.jpg/200px-000_Mario_Cuomo.jpg


Andrew Cuomo, his son, also Governor of New York:
http://www.adweek.com/fishbowldc/files/2011/02/andrew-cuomo.jpg?red=dc

Was there a conspiracy to elect them based on some desire to denigrate southern Italians? This kind of world view is not only ridiculous, it displays a self-hatred on a par with that exhibited by some of our Spanish posters.

I just hope that other posters and readers realize that these views are not representative of the views of these peoples as a whole.

As for the representation of Italian Americans in American films, most of them, from The Godfather, to Goodfellas, to The Sopranos, were made by Italian Americans. Francis Coppola, Martin Scorsese, and David Chase cast people who looked like the people among whom they grew up. Martin Scorsese was born and grew up in Little Italy, New York. He portrays in his movies the world with which he was familiar. When he wanted to cast his movie Goodfellas, Scorsese went to Rao's, a wonderful restaurant in New York where a lot of "mobbed up" guys like to hang to find people for the smaller parts.

Now, if you want to say that perhaps the areas from which these people immigrated, or the class from which they were drawn were not totally representative, in terms of phenotype, of all of southern Italy, then that is a possibility. However, foreign, or admixed with Hispanics or black Americans they're not; that's an absolute falsehood, although such people of course exist.

Johannes
27-09-15, 16:53
In 2008 I was in Tunisia and I could see Berbers, including these living in Chenini:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chenini

But I don't remember seeing a clone of Penelope Cruz, so I can't say who is right.

Jesus Christ Tomenable! Did I say Penelope Cruz looks exactly like a Berber? I said she is mixed: actually she looks more like a Jew. Now find pictures that look like her.

Angela
27-09-15, 17:28
What is idiotic is you finding "conspiracies" every time someone mentions Jews or Aryans. You must have some complex or you have been brainwashed by political-correctness. For example, if I had said Italians or Germans or Eskimos run Hollywood you would have not run around like a chicken babbling about "anti-Semitism" or "Nordicists." You are naive: There is no conspiracy about Jewish producers making Spaniards or Italians look "dark." It's just how Hollywood made them in the beginning, for example, Rudolph Valentino. It sells movies. If you think Jewesh producers are trying to make Spaniards look like Moors then you are an idiot. What's is wrong with you is you make up things that don't exist and then you force them on this forum. If you think some statements are "anti-Semitic" then keep them to yourself and don't contaminate the forum with your prejudices or paranoid fantasies. All you do is make people more stupid with your emotionalism. Anyone who thinks when someone mentions "Jews run Hollywood" is anti-Semitic has some loose nuts in their brain or is hopelessly naive or worse.

The first amendment of free speech is supposed to protect us from the likes of you. This is what it says: "First Amendment - Religion and Expression. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." You have a tyrannical personality and this forum should be allowed to have free speech for all. You are acting like the government mentioned above! You act like some Bolshevik committee. It does not matter if there are Jewish racist or white racist or black racist or people from Mars who are racist. Everyone should be allowed to make their opinions in every forum. Do you own this forum? are you a goddess that knows everything?

I grew up in LA and have met and know Jews and everything under the sun. I even have Jewish friends. I have even debated with racists and they turned out to be more enlightened than you. Everyone should be allowed to express their own opinions no matter what they are. If not then you lower the standards and the culture. Look at what happened to Soviet Union where everyone was told what to think? Look at what happened in Muslim countries? They are or were all poor and backward. That is what you are trying to preach sister. Actually I think that this forum should only allow people with at least a BA degree and no prejudiced or people with agendas in the forum. Other wise there is no point.

About Penelope Cruz: I never slandered anything. You make things up in your head. She is a great beauty but not a great actress. It's my opinion. You are entitled to yours. Stop slandering me.

You talkin' to me?

You asked for it, you got it.

@Sigfrido,
Your IP address had better not be that of a previously banned member.

Johannes
27-09-15, 18:13
You talkin' to me?

You asked for it, you got it.

@Sigfrido,
Your IP address had better not be that of a previously banned member.

Ha! so you see the truth but you dont like it! I have seen you insult many members and even patronize about how much you know about everything. But you don't get an "infraction." What do I care about your stupid infractions. You can peddle your fantasies or your prejudices wherever you want but people are not as stupid as you think. What you need is an open mind and less emotionalism.

Sigfrido
27-09-15, 18:29
Good cherrypick Angela. Do you realize that I could post at least 90 famous Italian Americans who could pass for Anglos? Also not everyone with an Italian surname is fully Italian, so I don't get your point.

Johannes
27-09-15, 18:45
So claiming that Hollywood has been totally monopolized by Jews is, quite simply, not true.

Ok why dont you prove it? Go and google or find out some other website. Once you do then come back and tell me its not true.

Vallicanus
27-09-15, 19:07
good cherrypick angela. Do you realize that i could post at least 90 famous italian americans who could pass for anglos? Also not everyone with an italian surname is fully italian, so i don't get your point.


lol lol lol lol

Sigfrido
27-09-15, 19:44
Why LoL? You know it is true.

Tomenable
27-09-15, 19:53
So claiming that Hollywood has been totally monopolized by Jews is, quite simply, not true.
Ok why dont you prove it? Go and google or find out some other website.Well, at least Bollywood is still controlled by Aryans... :grin:

Angela
27-09-15, 20:16
Good cherrypick Angela. Do you realize that I could post at least 90 famous Italian Americans who could pass for Anglos? Also not everyone with an Italian surname is fully Italian, so I don't get your point.

CHERRY PICK?

There are two (out of nine, btw, a fact of which I'm very proud) Italian American justices of the Supreme Court, the highest court in the land and arguably more powerful than either the President or the Congress. Those are their pictures. They are FULLY Southern/Italian-American.

I chose the most prominent Southern/Italian-American politicians in America because they are elected and so there could be no question of them being chosen because of some bizarre agenda. Mario Cuomo, for example, one of the most brilliant men it's ever been my privilege to hear speak, and to meet, had an immense following among Democrats in this country and was often urged to run for Presdient.

He and the other governors I posted are FULLY Southern Italian in origin.

You want some more? Go here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Italian_Americans

You can find a full list of Italian American governors there. I posted the ones who are FULLY Southern Italian and Sicilian in ancestry. Find for me among them the 100% southern Italian American ones who look like Anglos.

Some of them, like Governor Pataki, are 1/4 southern Italian and the rest eastern European. He is running for President, by the way:
http://fitn.gop/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/georgepataki.jpg

Some are half Sicilian-half Irish, like Governor Chris Christie, who is also running for President:
http://thejointblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/christie.png

Or half southern Italian/half German American like the Governor of Arizona, Janet Napolitano:
http://www.conservapedia.com/images/c/c3/Janet_Napolitano.gif

I didn't post them because they are MIXED.

You want to go to mayors, business leaders, church leaders? Go ahead, knock yourself out. Like it or lump it, this is what most of them look like.* As I said, maybe it has to do with the particular area or class from which the immigrants were drawn, but it certainly has nothing to do with cherry picking or with these people being admixed with Hispanics. Nor does it mean that they aren't fully of European descent, the **** posted on anthrofora notwithstanding.

Oh, and by the way, the largest admixture of Italian Americans with other Americans is with the Irish and Irish/Germans. There are so many of this type of mix that they could populate a small country of their own.

Another example of one of them, although I detest him...Bill DeBlasio, mayor of the city of New York:
http://www1.nyc.gov/assets/home/images/mayor/index/deblasio.png

One of the best mayors New York ever had by way of contrast...Rudy Giuliani...fully Italian:
http://www.achievement.org/achievers/giu0/large/giu0-008.jpg

Oh, wait, I get it...intelligence, efficiency, political skill, and popularity correlate with "darker" phenotypes in southern Italians. That must explain it. The lighter ones, the majority, just don't cut it.

* Of course, it has to be said that politicians are not generally known for their good looks.

Angela
27-09-15, 20:23
Well, at least Bollywood is still controlled by Aryans... :grin:

Oh man, that was a good one. You have a great sense of humor. :)

Tomenable
27-09-15, 20:24
Thank you! :)

Edit:

This is for another thread (removed).

Angela
27-09-15, 20:44
Or there could be self-selection of intelligent immigrants from South Italy to America - i.e. so-called "brain drain".

For example according to Jason Richwine's calculations of IQ scores from the 2003 New Immigrant Survey's "mini IQ test", the group of immigrants to the USA who score the highest average IQ are immigrants from India - 112 IQ on average (compared to 104-106 among East Asian immigrants and 99 among European immigrants). Yet studies on average IQ in India itself, indicate that it is around 85 for the whole population.

However, there seem to be huge differences in IQ scores between various castes and tribes.

I've seen claims that Brahmins have average IQ of 110 - 120, while Dalits (scheduled castes / untouchables) only 65 - 70.

But it seems that these are only estimates, not data from legitimate studies (if such exist):

http://halfsigma.typepad.com/half_sigma/2011/04/follow-up-on-indian-iq.html

http://pumpkinperson.com/2014/09/29/caste-iq-in-india/

I don't think they are analogous situations, Tomenable. The only Indians who are immigrating to the U.S. in this time period are the educated, middle class ones. That's not true of all the current immigrants.

The southern Italian/Sicilian immigrants to America who came during the last part of the 19th century and first part of the twentieth century were the poorest of the poor, landless people for the most part, or barely surviving peasants, almost all of whom were illiterate. I would agree, however, that it's a tribute to their innate gifts that their grandchildren have come so far in their adopted country.

It wasn't a brain drain. There is a brain drain going on now of educated Italians to other countries, but it didn't exist at the time in question.

I was being sarcastic in that statement. The only way you could believe that these people are not representative of the broader Italian/American community is to believe that somehow, as I said, "darker" phenotypes correlate with intelligence and political skill.

Sigfrido
27-09-15, 20:46
Those mixed people you have posted look like regular White Americans. LOL. I can't still post photos for now. I still need to make 10 posts.

Tomenable
27-09-15, 20:53
I don't think they are analogous situations, Tomenable.Yes, I actually decided to delete that. I should have posted that in your thread about strong founder events in Indian castes:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31570-Enrichment-of-Genes-for-Neurodevelopmental-Disorders-in-Founder-Populations-Finland

There are some castes with high IQ, but average for entire population of India is low. Maybe part of this is due to inbreeding.

Probably if they all stopped inbreeding just within their own castes and mixed, average IQ for entire India would increase.

Angela
27-09-15, 21:00
Those mixed people you have posted look like regular White Americans. LOL. I can't still post photos for now. I still need to make 10 posts.

OMG! They're MIXED; HALF Irish/German! How can they be held to be representative of 100% Southern Italian or Sicilian Americans?

Plus, where do you get off saying that Justice Alito or Rudy Giuliani don't look like white Americans? Do you think Americans believe they're not white Americans? You would be well advised not to think that the opinions expressed by posters on anthrofora are representative of anyone but the fringe.

Plus, I have news for you. Neither Janet Napolitano nor Chris Christie look Irish, or German, or English American.

You reminded me; I have to check your IP address.

Tomenable
27-09-15, 21:00
The southern Italian/Sicilian immigrants to America who came during the last part of the 19th century and first part of the twentieth century were the poorest of the poor, landless people for the most part, or barely surviving peasants, almost all of whom were illiterate. I would agree, however, that it's a tribute to their innate gifts that their grandchildren have come so far in their adopted country.

Peasants in the past tended to be more inbred than modern people. Often marriages were within the same village. And it is proven that inbreeding is bad for IQ (this is one of reasons why Islamic cousin marriages are so destructive for Muslim populations). But after the end of serfdom and the start of migrations from villages to cities, mobility of people increased, mixing of people from different regions increased, they started outbreeding, heterozygosity and IQ increased. So I agree with your conclusion that being highly endogamous is not too beneficial.

Of course there are endogamous groups which have a history of selective pressures favouring intelligence - such as these Brahmins.

But still these groups have high rates of various recessive diseases due to strong founder events and endogamy.

Angela
27-09-15, 21:27
I got carried away here, and participated in taking this thread off topic. I apologize. Anyone wishing to continue this discussion about the Italian-American community, please start a thread in the ethnography section.

Sigfrido
27-09-15, 23:30
OMG! They're MIXED; HALF Irish/German! How can they be held to be representative of 100% Southern Italian or Sicilian Americans?

Plus, where do you get off saying that Justice Alito or Rudy Giuliani don't look like white Americans? Do you think Americans believe they're not white Americans? You would be well advised not to think that the opinions expressed by posters on anthrofora are representative of anyone but the fringe.

Plus, I have news for you. Neither Janet Napolitano nor Chris Christie look Irish, or German, or English American.

You reminded me; I have to check your IP address.

None of those people you have posted look like how Italians are normally portrayed in Jewish owned medias. They would pass totally unnoticed in any bunch of Anglos without anyone asking about their origins. Especially in America where whites make only 60% of the population and most of them are highly mongrelized with God knows what.

Sigfrido
28-09-15, 09:18
Just to make things clear, I am not claiming that those Italian Americans look like Swedes or something. My point is that even those highly cherrypicked samples posted by Angela look nothing like the "Italians" seen on MTV or Hollywood, where even Mexicans, Colombians and the like are often casted as Italian Americans by the (mostly) Jewish directors. Also they would pass completely unnoticed as individuals in any bunch of Anglos (who have heir own tiny share of dark types like Victoria Beckham), especially in modern multi racial America, where whites are a minority in almost every big city like New York for example.

Auld Reekie
28-09-15, 16:10
What is idiotic is you finding "conspiracies" every time someone mentions Jews or Aryans. You must have some complex or you have been brainwashed by political-correctness. For example, if I had said Italians or Germans or Eskimos run Hollywood you would have not run around like a chicken babbling about "anti-Semitism" or "Nordicists." You are naive: There is no conspiracy about Jewish producers making Spaniards or Italians look "dark." It's just how Hollywood made them in the beginning, for example, Rudolph Valentino. It sells movies. If you think Jewesh producers are trying to make Spaniards look like Moors then you are an idiot. What's is wrong with you is you make up things that don't exist and then you force them on this forum. If you think some statements are "anti-Semitic" then keep them to yourself and don't contaminate the forum with your prejudices or paranoid fantasies. All you do is make people more stupid with your emotionalism. Anyone who thinks when someone mentions "Jews run Hollywood" is anti-Semitic has some loose nuts in their brain or is hopelessly naive or worse.

The first amendment of free speech is supposed to protect us from the likes of you. This is what it says: "First Amendment - Religion and Expression. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." You have a tyrannical personality and this forum should be allowed to have free speech for all. You are acting like the government mentioned above! You act like some Bolshevik committee. It does not matter if there are Jewish racist or white racist or black racist or people from Mars who are racist. Everyone should be allowed to make their opinions in every forum. Do you own this forum? are you a goddess that knows everything?

I grew up in LA and have met and know Jews and everything under the sun. I even have Jewish friends. I have even debated with racists and they turned out to be more enlightened than you. Everyone should be allowed to express their own opinions no matter what they are. If not then you lower the standards and the culture. Look at what happened to Soviet Union where everyone was told what to think? Look at what happened in Muslim countries? They are or were all poor and backward. That is what you are trying to preach sister. Actually I think that this forum should only allow people with at least a BA degree and no prejudiced or people with agendas in the forum. Other wise there is no point.

About Penelope Cruz: I never slandered anything. You make things up in your head. She is a great beauty but not a great actress. It's my opinion. You are entitled to yours. Stop slandering me.Why say Jewish media? Why not say JUST the media? Freedom of speech might not apply on this forum...

Degredado
28-09-15, 16:38
The idea that Jews control Hollywood and that these Jews are on some kind of mission to cast certain types of actors, based on their phenotype, to deliberately "darken" a certain ethnicity (Italian-Americans, Spaniards etc), is classic Stormfront paranoia. Let's look at some Hollywood actors from the British Isles, over the years: Cary Grant, Sean Connery, Colin Farrell, Orlando Bloom, Keira Knightley, John Rhys-Davies, Catherine Zeta-Jones, Helena Bonham-Carter, Rowan Atkinson, Russell Brand... does anyone see British people being paranoid about these actors' "darkness"?

Johannes
28-09-15, 17:18
Do you happen to know what ancestries do they declare in censuses? I'm curious about this because I can't see "Jewish ancestry" category. There was "religious response" category in U.S. 2000 census, which surely included some Jews, but it was not numerous enough to have them all.

Yes of course. Most of my Jewish friends I met was while I was teaching in L.A. All of them were teachers. The majority did not have a classic "Jewish" look (they were obviously mixed). Some I did not even know were Jewish! They looked exactly like Ukrainians or Poles! Almost all declared they came from some eastern European country, such as Poland, Russia, Ukraine, and Romania. None as I recall came from Israel or the Middle Eastern countries or were Sephardic. All of them or their parents came from either New York or some eastern U.S. region.

Angela
28-09-15, 17:46
This is not going to turn into an auxiliary site for Stormfront. End of story.

Johannes
28-09-15, 17:50
Why say Jewish media? Why not say JUST the media? Freedom of speech might not apply on this forum...

As you just saw with the chairman of the committee Angela: freedom of speech certainly does not exist at all here.

Johannes
28-09-15, 17:55
Why say Jewish media? Why not say JUST the media? Freedom of speech might not apply on this forum...

Yes I could have said that but sometimes you don't have time to think in a politically correct or paranoid manner. You just simply tell the truth but you get punished because of telling the truth. In today's world everything is about secrets and why you cannot say what's in your mind. Everyone just shuts up and become dumber. It's very similar to communist countries in the past but done in a very devious manner.

Johannes
28-09-15, 18:05
This is not going to turn into an auxiliary site for Stormfront. End of story.

No one is trying to turn this site into a "Stormfront" or other none-sense you make up. If you simply stop slandering people and treat them in a respectful manner without your arrogance then this site will function in a healthy manner. It would help a lot if you stop being a monitor. Or go somewhere else and be a monitor for some other site.

This site is about DNA of Iberians not Italians, Jews, or conspiracy theories.

Angela
28-09-15, 18:31
No one is trying to turn this site into a "Stormfront" or other none-sense you make up. If you simply stop slandering people and treat them in a respectful manner without your arrogance then this site will function in a healthy manner. It would help a lot if you stop being a monitor. Or go somewhere else and be a monitor for some other site.

This site is about DNA of Iberians not Italians, Jews, or conspiracy theories.

THEN STOP POSTING ABOUT CONSPIRACY THEORIES. I'm in a charitable mood so instead of issuing another infraction for resisting moderation I'll explain it one more time. You don't decide on the rules. You don't choose the moderators. You are being moderated. Each and every time that you resist moderation I will issue an infraction. If you accumulate enough infraction points it will result in an automatic ban. If that's what you want I will be happy to accommodate you.

If that isn't what you want, then get back on topic. I have already stated that this is not the place for a discussion of Italo-American phenotypes and I regret that I allowed the digression.

NOW MOVE ON! You have no idea how lucky you are. I've issued fewer infractions and bans than any moderator here.

hornblower35
14-10-15, 06:19
this way some americans or hollywoodians look at basques (LOL):
I can't already put any link but google this youtube video and it will appair: kt_-m_e39TM

Turmfalke
02-01-16, 15:40
Iberians always inflate their Celtic/Visigothic ancestry and negate all Phoenician/Arabic/Jewish heritage (I wonder if they don't think anyone notices this bias?). To claim that the Goths left a significant genetic mark in Iberia while claiming that the Moors (who ruled the peninsula for much longer) left none or close to none is just ridiculous. If Iberians overstated both of these influences, or minimized both, it would be alright, no one would say a word.



You nailed it!

Exactly the same applies to italians and nobody questions them, considering that since the Roman empire was a mestizo society.

This isn´t to extol a heritage of Germanic tribes, it happens that there is a dominant theory in forums where hispanophobs (which are many and diverse places) are determined to say the Spanien is genetically arab and jewish (semitic) precisely using the rhetoric that you are using: 800 years of Muslim invasion... but only in Granada, man. The Reconquista began in 722 and up the Toledo spent 360 years. In the process of Reconquista, thet became populated cities with Christians from Northern Peninsula.

And for now, sir, science tell us that R1b is the largest in Spanien, ergo, the semitic genetic is negligible, wiht or without Muslim invasion.

Despite these data and a genetic map ahead, the "professional haters" insist that Spaniards are Moors. :grin:

Seeing is believing. Lol

redeyednewt
15-02-16, 08:07
I have an Iberian heritage but it comes from my relatives from Southern Italy. I am still looking into it and researching it.

Maciamo
15-02-16, 10:30
Sorry, I didn't have time to reply to this thread before.

To answer the OP's question, the Iron-age Iberians were mainly descended from the Mesolithic and Neolithic inhabitants of the Iberian peninsula, who belonged to I2a, G2a, E1b1b, J1, T1a and probably also J2. But I would expect to find also a considerable amount of R1b-S116 that arrived with Bronze Age invaders who lost their IE language (like in the Basque population).

berun
15-02-16, 22:44
Iberians incinerated their deceased... so it's very difficult to get DNA from ashes; but luckly they inhumated their babes under their homes as i think did the Anatolian neolithic farmers, so from such cases it would be possible to extract quality DNA... but we might wait yet.

For ancient Iberian mtDNA we have:

Sampietro, M. L., Caramelli, D., Lao, O., Calafell, F.,
Comas, D., Lari, M., Agusti, B., Bertranpetit, J. &
Lalueza-Fox, C. 2005 The genetics of the pre-Roman
Iberian Peninsula: a mtDNA study of ancient Iberians.
Ann. Hum. Genet. 69, 535–548. (doi:10.1111/j.1529-
8817.2005.00194.x)

Palaeogenetic evidence supports a dual model
of Neolithic spreading into Europe
M. L. Sampietro1, O. Lao2, D. Caramelli3, M. Lari3, R. Pou4,
M. Martı´4, J. Bertranpetit1 and C. Lalueza-Fox

comparable results come to be more or less:

late neolithic - Iberians - medieval Catalonia
(11) (16) (24)

H 36 53 56

T 18 6 8

J 18 12 3

I1 9,1 - -

U 9 17 9

W 9 - 5

K - 6 6

HV - 6 1


but it's to take into account that major differences are found in two articles related to modern Catalan mtDNA...

By the way I would like to know which fraction of such mtDNA might be of indoeuropean origin, because looking at such data seems like the "indoeuropean-R1b-males-that-lost-their-indoeuropean-language-for-Iberian" would be a only-males tribe...