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View Full Version : The Scythian origin of Haplogroup HV2(a)



Alan
27-05-15, 05:18
In the past I wrote that my maternal Haplogroupn is most likely of Scythian origin, a strong evidence for this is that Haplogroup HV2 was found among two Scythian Ice mummies in the Altais so far and nowhere else.
Another reasonable argument is that this Haplogroup is quite young (few thousand years).

Than I thought to take a look at the ftDNA database and where it is found.
According to ftDNA it is very rare and only found in 2-4 individuals in their database so far.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/mtdna_hv/default.aspx?section=mtmap

One of them from Chuvashia in Russia. Chuvash are believed to be related to the Volga Bulgars and therefore might be mostly of native Scythian stock who have absorbed some East Eurasian admixture and became Turkic speakers.

Another one is found in the city of Saqqez in Eastern Kurdistan (West Iran). So the question came up what does Saqqez have to do with Scythians.
Here is the answer.


Saqqez (Kurdish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_language): Seqiz, Persian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_language): سقز‎; also known as Saghez, Saqqiz, and Sakīz)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saqqez#cite_note-1) is a city in and capital of Saqqez County (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saqqez_County), Kurdistan Province (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Province), Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran). At the 2011 census, its population was 139,738.

The Kurds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds) and their ancient Iranian ancestors have lived in Seqiz and the surrounding areas since approximately 1000 B.C. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1000_B.C.) By the mid-seventh century B.C., the Scythians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians) under Bartatua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartatua) reached the summit of their might in western Asia, and the region of Saqqez was their political center.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saqqez#cite_note-2) In the pre-Islamic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic) era (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Era), Seqiz and the surrounding areas comprised a small country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country) known as Sagapeni, which is believed to be related to the name of the ancient Iranian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran) Sakas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakas) (Scythians) from which the name of the city (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City) is derived.


I think it is obvious that the distribution of this rare Haplogroup overlaps well with the expansion of Scythians.

Fire Haired14
27-05-15, 23:02
HV2a exists in SouthWest Asia at low frequencies.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4339-Analysis-of-over-2-000-HVR1-profiles-From-SouthWest-Asia&p=79606#post79606

Alan
28-05-15, 02:51
HV2a exists in SouthWest Asia at low frequencies.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4339-Analysis-of-over-2-000-HVR1-profiles-From-SouthWest-Asia&p=79606#post79606

Yes at low frequency and who do you think brought this low frequency there or what was the purpose of the post?

Haplogroup HV2a exist in low frequency in South_Central Asia, West Asia and East Europe (Slovakia and Chuvashia) and one even in Scandinavia.

Fire Haired14
28-05-15, 03:20
Yes at low frequency and who do you think brought this low frequency there or what was the purpose of the post?

Haplogroup HV2a exist in low frequency in South_Central Asia, West Asia and East Europe (Slovakia and Chuvashia) and one even in Scandinavia.

I'm not stating an opinion on HV2's history. I've only looked at mtDNA from SouthWest Asia in a detailed way, and some HV2a was there, so I thought I'd share. I don't know where else it exists, besides what you've posted.

Fire Haired14
28-05-15, 03:23
HV and its mother R0 look to me to have originated in West Asia. There's R0a1a and R0a2c from Mesolithic Morocco(not West Asia, but probably colonized by West Asians), but the study is old and unreliable. If HV2 was spread largely by Scythians, they got HV2 or its ancestor from West Asia at some point. I'm surprised HV2 was in Sycthians who lived in Siberia.

Alan
28-05-15, 05:06
I'm not stating an opinion on HV2's history. I've only looked at mtDNA from SouthWest Asia in a detailed way, and some HV2a was there, so I thought I'd share. I don't know where else it exists, besides what you've posted.

Ok I understand what you mean but who actually claimed that HV2 does not exist in Western Asia? I don't get the purpose of your comment. If in my opnening post I clearly mention that two samples are in the ftDNA database, one from Saqqez (West Asia) and one from Chuvashia.

Alan
28-05-15, 05:14
HV and its mother R0 look to me to have originated in West Asia. There's R0a1a and R0a2c from Mesolithic Morocco(not West Asia, but probably colonized by West Asians), but the study is old and unreliable. If HV2 was spread largely by Scythians, they got HV2 or its ancestor from West Asia at some point. I'm surprised HV2 was in Sycthians who lived in Siberia.


Boy you are talking about one of the largest and oldest mtDNA lineages in Eurasia. How is a West Asian origin of R0 and HV in anyway significant for an Scythian distribution of HV2? Are you aware that Scythians as all Indo_Iranians are a hybrid population of herders and H&G. Or why is it such a surprise for you that they turned out as HV2? Let me give you another shock, the Rostov Scythian turned out as mtdna U7.

If even Yamna was ~50% South Georgian/Armenian like how come you are suprised to find West Asian lineages in Scythians? Did you know that H is a West Asian lineage too?

Fire Haired14
28-05-15, 05:26
Boy you are talking about one of the largest and oldest mtDNA lineages in Eurasia. How is a West Asian origin of R0 and HV in anyway significant for an Scythian distribution of HV2? Are you aware that Scythians as all Indo_Iranians are a hybrid population of herders and H&G. Or why is it such a surprise for you that they turned out as HV2? Let me give you another shock, the Rostov Scythian turned out as mtdna U7.

If even Yamna was ~50% South Georgian/Armenian like how come you are suprised to find West Asian lineages in Scythians? Did you know that H is a West Asian lineage too?

I'm well aware of the ~50% Caucasus-like origin of Yamnaya. I'm supersized to see HV2 in Sycthians because I thought it was most likely one of those West Asian-specific subclades of R0, that weren't included in the very ancient West Asian migrations into Europe(EEF's West Asian ancestors) and Russia(Yamnaya's West Asian ancestors).

HV2 being found in Sycthians doesn't mean Sycthians are The source of HV2. They're a Historical ethnic group, so HV2 is probably too old. There are several members on these forums from West and South-Central Asia who have HV2. It's probably all over the place, but very rare.

Alan
28-05-15, 15:46
I'm well aware of the ~50% Caucasus-like origin of Yamnaya. I'm supersized to see HV2 in Sycthians because I thought it was most likely one of those West Asian-specific subclades of R0, that weren't included in the very ancient West Asian migrations into Europe(EEF's West Asian ancestors) and Russia(Yamnaya's West Asian ancestors).

Andronovo,the heart of Scythian territory does not lie in Europe. Scythians expanded later into Cimmerian territory who were a different Iranic tribe. Andronovo is located further East than Yamna and comparing all Indo_Iranian aDNA we see clearly a trend of stronger EEF and ANE and weaker WHG compared to Yamna. Therefore it is not a suprise at all. Contrary it is very logical imo.

Not only HV2 was found but also even more HV1 among the Altai Scythians. Just that HV1 has a wider distribution and is not so much exclusively linked to Scythian ancestry as HV2. There is also U7 among Rostov Scythian remain.

http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2012/11/u7-in-rostov-scythians.html

You should understand that especially for mtDNA there is no "European" or "West Asian". Only a few U clades such as U4 and U5 can be considered seriously as evolved in "Europe".

But good now you know it.




HV2 being found in Sycthians doesn't mean Sycthians are The source of HV2. They're a Historical ethnic group, so HV2 is probably too old. There are several members on these forums from West and South-Central Asia who have HV2. It's probably all over the place, but very rare.

HV2 might be older but it's distribution is clearly linked to the expansion of Scythian and to lesser extend Sarmatian speakers, because it is mostly found among those ethnic groups who have been historical in contact with them.

HV2 is found only in ancient Scythian samples so far. And the regions where it is found modernly have a history of Scythian settlements.

You can never be sure which source your Haplogroup really has but chances are high that if you are an Indo_Iranian speaker and have yDNA R1aia* z93 that this Haplogroup might be linked to your Indo_Iranian ancestry.

So we might not be 100% sure but chances stand 75% that this Haplogroup came from a Scythian source.

Balfi
07-04-19, 11:34
My mtDNA is HV2a. My grandmother has Hungarian ancestry from what is now Slovakia. I have traced my ancestry, their family name is Pecsők. She has a very unique look to her.