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Fire Haired14
06-06-15, 15:47
Eurogenes posted some interesting abstracts from ISABS 2015(see here (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/06/isabs-2015-abstracts.html)). One of them is about Neolithic Genomes from Anatolia.

THE FIRST GENOMIC DATA FROM ANATOLIA AND ITS IMPACTS ON EUROPEAN NEOLITHICS


The most important process in the prehistory of our species is arguably the Neolithization. In the course of 10000 years, it took us from a hunter-gatherer lifestyle to the society we live in today. For Eurasia, Anatolia and the Near East played a key role in this process. It has already been shown that the neolithic expansion from this area and westwards was driven by migration. But we know little about the actual establishing of neolithic societies in Anatolia, and on what kind of population dynamics effected their gene pool. And we also know little more about the Neolithic gene flow from Anatolia than that it had occurred.

For the first time we present genomic results from an ancient Anatolian farmer, from Troy's proto-settlement Kumtepe, and it anchors the European neolithic genepool to Anatolia. Further, the late-neolithic individual from Kumtepe does not only contain the genetic element that is frequent in early European farmers, but also a component found mainly in modern populations from the Near and Middle East and Northern Africa, and to a much smaller degree, in some Neolithic European farmers. The scene presented by Kumtepe is compatible with geneflow into Europe from or through the neolithic core area in Anatolia. And it is likely that this occurred early, perhaps just after the neolithic core area had been established in southeastern Anatolia.

It seems this abstract is talking about an ADMIXTURE Analysis. Looks like the older Anatolians were the ancestors of Neolithic European farmers, so high in "Mediterranean" components. But later Anatolians had affinity to modern Middle Easterns("SouthWest Asian" components?) that Neolithic Europeans and Earlier Antolians had little of. I doubt this change that occurred in Late Neolithic Anatolia has much to do with ANE, because the abstract would probably mention new affinity to the Caucasus.

I've mentioned before that Modern Middle Eastern's maternal lineages come from the same Palaeolithic mega grandmothers as Neolithic European's maternal lineages, but the two separated many thousands of years ago in West Asia. Maybe the older Neolithic Anatolians belonged to typical EEF mtDNA J1c, T2b, H1, etc. and later ones belonged to typical Middle Eastern J1b, HV1, R0a, etc.

LeBrok
06-06-15, 18:05
Cool, but why late Neolithic was chosen?
I want Natufians!

Angela
06-06-15, 18:19
Eurogenes posted some interesting abstracts from ISABS 2015(see here (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/06/isabs-2015-abstracts.html)). One of them is about Neolithic Genomes from Anatolia.

THE FIRST GENOMIC DATA FROM ANATOLIA AND ITS IMPACTS ON EUROPEAN NEOLITHICS



It seems this abstract is talking about an ADMIXTURE Analysis. Looks like the older Anatolians were the ancestors of Neolithic European farmers, so high in "Mediterranean" components. But later Anatolians had affinity to modern Middle Easterns("SouthWest Asian" components?) that Neolithic Europeans and Earlier Antolians had little of. I doubt this change that occurred in Late Neolithic Anatolia has much to do with ANE, because the abstract would probably mention new affinity to the Caucasus.

I've mentioned before that Modern Middle Eastern's maternal lineages come from the same Palaeolithic mega grandmothers as Neolithic European's maternal lineages, but the two separated many thousands of years ago in West Asia. Maybe the older Neolithic Anatolians belonged to typical EEF mtDNA J1c, T2b, H1, etc. and later ones belonged to typical Middle Eastern J1b, HV1, R0a, etc.

Thanks, Fire Haired.

I wonder if this has to do with the appearance of J2a?

I'm not sure this doesn't have to do with "Caucasus" on the old Dodecad calculators. They say that it started to show up in Neolithic samples in Europe, yes? We don't know the period they're talking about, but Gok 4 had some Caucasus, and Otezi had quite a bit.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/04/first-look-at-dna-of-neolithic.html.

7275

What about the later Neolithic in Hungary? Did the people who ran Dodecad calculators on them find some Caucasus?

Ed. J2b as well.

Also, this might be helpful as to the nature of "Caucasus" in the dodecad runs:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09/inter-relationships-between-dodecad-k7b.html

LeBrok
06-06-15, 18:26
Right Angela, me might not learn a lot about first farmers, but about J folks expansion.

Angela
06-06-15, 20:01
Right Angela, me might not learn a lot about first farmers, but about J folks expansion.

Well, we may learn about the first farmers in a sort of back handed way, I suppose.

If these genomes are analyzed and they don't have any ANE, and so perhaps these people didn't come from the direction of the Caucasus mountains per se and/or eastern Anatolia (which is the first possibility), then perhaps they're just more ENF, to use that phrase, because they don't have the small slice of WHG that the EEF possessed. If the researchers are assuming that EEF existed as a complete component in the Near East, then this north west Anatolia farmer sample(s) may seem to them to show "new" admixture. However, if EEF formed in the Balkans or the Greek islands en route to Europe and incorporated some WHG in one or both of those areas, then this northwest Anatolia sample might be representative of the "original" Near Eastern farmer?

The third possibility might be that EEF did form in the Near East, near the intersection of Anatolia and the northern Levant , or elsewhere in Anatolia, and this northwest Anatolian sample shows migration from places in the Fertile Crescent and/or the Levant which were even more ENF than the farmers who first went to Europe.

As I pointed out above, we do have a "Caucasus" component in Oetzi and Gok and perhaps some from the Neolithic in Hungary. The Koros samples were even more "Near Eastern" than the western European neolithic farmers, weren't they? More ENF? Look at KO2 compared to Stuttgart, Oetzi etc. If you take a look at the link to Dienekes that I posted above, there's a lot of "Southern" in the Caucasus component too, as well as some "Gedrosian".
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141021/ncomms6257/images/ncomms6257-f2.jpg
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09...decad-k7b.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09/inter-relationships-between-dodecad-k7b.html)

Well, since I don't have friends who were working on the paper, and I don't make a habit of hacking into academic sites or e-mails, I don't really know what the authors really posit or what proof they have, so I guess I'll have to wait to do much more opining. :)

Angela
06-06-15, 20:35
I just googled Genetiker, and found out that he has a thread where he has color coded the results for K12b for all the ancient as well as the modern samples. It's a nice reference. Here it is:
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/03/22/k12b-analysis-of-prehistoric-and-modern-genomes/

You can see that the Dodecad "Caucasus" component was indeed in Europe from the beginning, but it was higher in some areas than others. The section where you find Oetzi, Stuttgart and then the Hungarian Neolithic samples is very informative, as is the area where you can see the Early Neolithic in Spain. It does look as if the "Caucasus" component increased over time, as I had speculated a long time ago.

Garrick
06-06-15, 20:40
Right Angela, me might not learn a lot about first farmers, but about J folks expansion.

I think, this has link with the thread. Seeking the links between forerunner of Albanian and Armenian, and Iranian/Indic languages, Caucasus, East Anatolia and close areas I came to the few other interesting things.

Now I think that J2 carriers played a important role in creating Indo European languages, greater then assumed. Usually people think that R carriers (R1a and R1b) are creators of Indo European languages. But my opinion is that J2 folks were significantly involved.

Angela
06-06-15, 20:49
I think, this has link with the thread. Seeking the links between forerunner of Albanian and Armenian, and Iranian/Indic languages, Caucasus, East Anatolia and close areas I came to the few other interesting things.

Now I think that J2 carriers played a important role in creating Indo European languages, greater then assumed. Usually people think that R carriers (R1a and R1b) are creators of Indo European languages. But my opinion is that J2 folks were significantly involved.

Along that line, perhaps J2 actually didn't arrive in western Anatolia until the Bronze Age, and so these northwest Anatolian people were not yet J2. I hope they got yDna from these people. That would clarify a lot of things.

Sile
06-06-15, 20:54
Cool, but why late Neolithic was chosen?
I want Natufians!

most likely to associate with the Great bronze-age migrations or time of the sea peoples.

Angela
06-06-15, 21:02
The settlements that date to around 4800 BC had copper but don't seem to have had very rich burials, or at least they haven't found rich grave goods yet. It's only in 3700 BC that Bronze is found in the area. Troy was founded, perhaps by the descendents of these people, in 3000 BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumtepe

Fire Haired14
07-06-15, 02:37
The abstract seems to say EEF descended from the older Neolithic Anatolian, not the later SouthWest Asian-types. EEF doesn't have much Caucasus-affinity either, because they have little ANE-affinity. SouthWest Asian and Caucasus-signals*Yamnaya had a lot of it) in Europe are probably mostly from Middle Eastern migrations independent to what LBK and Cardiel came from.

It's retarded to think the Balkans and West Asia stayed isolated from each other after Neolithic farmers arrived in the Balkans. If Anatolia became more SouthWest Asian-like in the late Neolithic, I bet the Balkans(and other regions) did to. Y DNA J, E1b-M78 are popular in the Balkans and West Asia.

Fire Haired14
07-06-15, 02:43
A poster at Eurogenes was told by someone with inside information about a paper that should be online in a few weeks with many Ancient Armenian genomes. He said there's continuum between Bronze age and Modern Armenians. So, with Neolithic Antolians and many Ancient Armenians, a lot should be revealed about West Asian history. Actually this poster said the Armenian paper should be online in "the coming days".

Alan
07-06-15, 04:08
does not only contain the genetic element that is frequent in early European farmers, but also a component found mainly in modern populations from the Near and Middle East and Northern Africa, and to a much smaller degree, in some Neolithic European farmers.


"Red Sea" alias "Southern ENF" component?

It is found primeraly in West Asia, North Africa and was found in Neolithic European farmers too.

I think the late Neolithic is the phase when Proto Afro_Asiatic speakers started to spred the East African mixed EEF type (Red Sea) in Western Asia for the first time. And this must be the phase when "Mediterranean" was slowly being replaced by it "Southwest Asian" cousin in the Fertile Crescent.

Alan
07-06-15, 04:17
I wonder if this has to do with the appearance of J2a?



I doubt, the way how they mention North Africa and Middle East clearly indicates the Afro_Asiatic linked Red Sea component. It seems this was the phase when "Southwest Asian" was slowly replacing Mediterranean as said in the past it seems during late Neolithic around the Levant and parts of Anatolia a small East African shift happened (Probably brought with the Proto_Semites). That was my theory the first time Ötzis genome was published.

I connect this to some E1b1b*. J2 would have been "Caucasus_Gedrosia".

The "Caucasus" portion in Ötzi is actually a portion of his ENF ancestry which gets eaten up by "Caucasus".

Alan
07-06-15, 04:25
A poster at Eurogenes was told by someone with inside information about a paper that should be online in a few weeks with many Ancient Armenian genomes. He said there's continuum between Bronze age and Modern Armenians. So, with Neolithic Antolians and many Ancient Armenians, a lot should be revealed about West Asian history. Actually this poster said the Armenian paper should be online in "the coming days".
Here is the comment

The Armenian aDNA is also ready. It seems that there was a lot off continuity from Bronze Age to modern Armenians. The aDNA is from Republic of Armenia.
Allot of continuity can mean allot of things such as that ~50% of the ancestry is the same but there was a continuous genetic shift.

But it will be nice to finally have Bronze Age genomes from Armenia too. I bet we will see the first signs of Caucasus_Gedrosia genes.


As I said in the very first time the Ötzi genome was published. It seems the original farmer genome was slowly mixing with ANE arriving from the Iranian plateau and North Caucasus becoming "Caucasus_Gedrosia" and an East African shift happened in the Levant with the arriving of Proto_Semites who brought the a Red Sea component with them. Which gave birth to the "Southwest Asian "component.

elghund
07-06-15, 15:02
DNA from Kumtepe will soon be released, so we better get our bets in soon.


http://www.researchgate.net/publication/225662460_Mid-Holocene_vegetation_change_in_the_Troad_%28W_Anato lia%29_man-made_or_natural

This paper was published in 2008. At that time, two separate layers had been excavated and analyzed at Kumtepe. Kumtepe A represents the Late Neolithic, Kumtepe B represents the Bronze Age. A third, later culture, Kumtepe C, has been identified but not yet excavated. Kumtepe A is the site from where they sampled the dna from the farmer, I believe. Kumtepe A, according to the paper, shows a mixed economy of agriculture, domestication, hunting and gathering. The domesticates include cattle, sheep, goat and pigs. The main hunting prey was fallow deer and large amounts of mussel shells were collected. Kumtepe B, which came later, shows an agricultural economy. Because Kumtepe A has so many domesticates from Mesopotamia, Taurus/Zagros Moutain area, and since they also have wheat and barley, I'm putting my bets on the farmers y-dna haplogroup being R1b, J2, E1b1b, or G2, in the order most likely to least. I'm not sure if y-DNA will be coming though. My bet for mtDNA (from greatest likelihood to least) is K1, J1, T2, T1, or a subclade of H.

Angela
07-06-15, 15:29
From the abstract:
"The scene presented by Kumtepe is compatible with geneflow into Europe from or through the neolithic core area in Anatolia. And it is likely that this occurred early, perhaps just after the neolithic core area had been established in southeastern Anatolia."

We'll have to see precisely what this means when we get the paper, but that statement seems to indicate that if this is indeed an additional or slightly different component, it entered Europe very early on, not just in the late Neolithic.

This is borne out by the fact that North African and Southwest Asian are present in the very earliest Neolithic in Europe. It just increases over time.
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/03/22/k12b-analysis-of-prehistoric-and-modern-genomes/

For example, in the Linear Pottery samples, four of them have the North African component, whereas the other five do not. The same pattern can be seen in the early Neolithic of Hungary. Two have virtually none, while the others seem to have the same amount as some of the LBK. Stuttgart has a small amount, and the Early Neolithic samples from Spain have slightly more. It actually doesn't increase or decrease in the Middle Neolithic in Spain. Starcevo also has a chunk of it.

The Southwest Asian follows virtually the same pattern. There are a very few of the LBK and Hungarian Early Neolithic who have just a sliver, but most have quite a chunk.

The question remains whether there was some early substructure in Anatolia, as the authors maintain, or whether what we are seeing is the result of WHG in the EEF that didn't exist in the original Near Eastern farmers and which was picked up in Europe. I would think we'd need some earlier Neolithic farmer genomes and some of the very early Neolithic ones from southern Greece, perhaps, to know for sure.

LeBrok
07-06-15, 19:09
From the abstract:
"The scene presented by Kumtepe is compatible with geneflow into Europe from or through the neolithic core area in Anatolia. And it is likely that this occurred early, perhaps just after the neolithic core area had been established in southeastern Anatolia."

We'll have to see precisely what this means when we get the paper, but that statement seems to indicate that if this is indeed an additional or slightly different component, it entered Europe very early on, not just in the late Neolithic.

This is borne out by the fact that North African and Southwest Asian are present in the very earliest Neolithic in Europe. It just increases over time.
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/03/22/k12b-analysis-of-prehistoric-and-modern-genomes/

For example, in the Linear Pottery samples, four of them have the North African component, whereas the other five do not. The same pattern can be seen in the early Neolithic of Hungary. Two have virtually none, while the others seem to have the same amount as some of the LBK. Stuttgart has a small amount, and the Early Neolithic samples from Spain have slightly more. It actually doesn't increase or decrease in the Middle Neolithic in Spain. Starcevo also has a chunk of it.

The Southwest Asian follows virtually the same pattern. There are a very few of the LBK and Hungarian Early Neolithic who have just a sliver, but most have quite a chunk.

The question remains whether there was some early substructure in Anatolia, as the authors maintain, or whether what we are seeing is the result of WHG in the EEF that didn't exist in the original Near Eastern farmers and which was picked up in Europe. I would think we'd need some earlier Neolithic farmer genomes and some of the very early Neolithic ones from southern Greece, perhaps, to know for sure.
And for that reason I wanted them (the researchers) at the source of the farmer gene, the Natufians and others from Fertile Crescent. Otherwise will be guessing for years till we get the source sample. To make it easy, we have many well preserved Natufian skeletons ready to be sampled.
http://www.pnas.org/content/110/29/11774/F2.medium.gif

http://www.pnas.org/content/110/29/11774.figures-only

Boreas
07-06-15, 21:44
Along that line, perhaps J2 actually didn't arrive in western Anatolia until the Bronze Age, and so these northwest Anatolian people were not yet J2. I hope they got yDna from these people. That would clarify a lot of things.



If Anatolia became more SouthWest Asian-like in the late Neolithic, I bet the Balkans(and other regions) did to. Y DNA J, E1b-M78 are popular in the Balkans and West Asia.

Early Neolithic

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/old_neolithic_map.gif

Angela
07-06-15, 22:09
Early Neolithic

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/old_neolithic_map.gif
Indeed, Maciamo is speculating here that J2 was in Anatolia but not in Europe in the Neolithic. I have had a hunch that J2 had a Bronze Age expansion, and so it might not have reached northwest Anatolia by 4500 BC. Hopefully they got some ydna from these samples so we'll have the answer.

For what it's worth, I think it was J2 that spread ANE throughout the Near East, but time and more samples will sort it out.

Yetos
07-06-15, 22:24
http://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png[/IMG] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#69893805), Maciamo is speculating here that J2 was in Anatolia but not in Europe in the Neolithic. I have had a hunch that J2 had a Bronze Age expansion, and so it might not have reached northwest Anatolia by 4500 BC. Hopefully they got some ydna from these samples so we'll have the answer.

For what it's worth, I think it was J2 that spread ANE throughout the Near East, but time and more samples will sort it out.

I agree with that,
J2 and especially J2a something that we should understand better,
cause it might be from neolithic ages expand to some, even to late iron age expand to others,
others connect it with agricultural booming, and others with iron and later times
and if was present in Vincas Varna Cycladetic Minoanhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#59862633),
while we estimated J2b presence in Hungary, and indeed was a shock to many 'theoriticals'

arvistro
07-06-15, 22:29
J2 maybe acquired ANE from somewhere and then spread it to Near East, but I feel ANE was Syberian thing originally. At least it was roaming there ~ 20k ago. And it is also quite high in Karintians (Native Americans) who are also linked to Syberia, apparently arrived to America via Syberia.

But I can be wrong :) I did not expect R1a in Baltics as early as it was found in Karelia, so I get mistaken more often than not :)

Aaron1981
07-06-15, 23:05
Early Neolithic



Dumbest map containing R1b I have ever seen. Check out NW Europe...almost exclusively R1b, partly due to strong founder effect in late neolithic, but also due to the fact all patrilineages of these late Eurasians was M269+, absorbing I-M253 and I2-M223 of the local hunter gatherers. This is only possible from a migration from the steppes. I had considered NW Anatolia at one point, but this isn't looking as feasible with it being very farmer like in the late Neolithic.

Twilight
26-03-16, 04:25
Looks like GedrosiaDNA just beat Eurogene to the punch in displaying Neolithic Anatolian genes.

Here it is, although I'm kind of worried that putting Mesolithic Caucasus; CHG folks into the mix. I have this strange feeling that the Natufian migrants to the Caucasus Neolithic is going to bunch up with their cousins; whom migrated to Neolithic Anatolia. So I'm not sure if Anatolian_Farmers is quite accurate yet

But overall I feel like this is a great start ^_^


Eurasia K10 CHG-NAF Oracle

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
WHG
40.50


2
CHG
21.82


3
Anatolian_Farmers
18.27


4
EHG
17.07


5
SW_Asian
2.15




Finished reading population data. 134 populations found.
10 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 English @ 4.902810
2 Hungarian @ 5.005404
3 Scottish @ 5.334389
4 Czech @ 5.427758
5 Norwegian @ 6.367209
6 Ukrainian @ 6.808107
7 Croatian @ 7.412964
8 Icelandic @ 7.448375
9 French @ 8.724945
10 Belarusian @ 11.273589
11 Russian @ 13.387304
12 Bulgarian @ 15.106068
13 Lithuanian @ 15.982151
14 Estonian @ 16.698095
15 French_South @ 17.218237
16 Spanish @ 17.242805
17 Finnish @ 17.772463
18 Karelia @ 19.088024
19 RISE_baSin @ 20.794765
20 Albanian @ 21.212620

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Croatian +50% Norwegian @ 4.194166


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Croatian +25% English +25% RISE_baSin @ 2.948140


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Bulgarian + English + English + RISE_baSin @ 2.738703
2 Croatian + English + French + RISE_baSin @ 2.787863
3 English + French + French + RISE_baSin @ 2.869783
4 Croatian + Croatian + English + RISE_baSin @ 2.948140
5 Albanian + English + Icelandic + RISE_baSin @ 2.955363
6 Loschbour + RISE_baArm + Spanish + Srubnaya @ 3.045632
7 Bulgarian + French + Icelandic + RISE_baSin @ 3.057717
8 Albanian + English + Norwegian + RISE_baSin @ 3.110352
9 English + Icelandic + RISE_baSin + Tuscan @ 3.120781
10 Bichon + RISE_baArm + Spanish + Srubnaya @ 3.131950
11 LaBrana1 + RISE_baArm + Spanish + Srubnaya @ 3.137918
12 Bulgarian + English + RISE_baSin + Scottish @ 3.148175
13 Bulgarian + Czech + English + RISE_baSin @ 3.164515
14 Bulgarian + French + Norwegian + RISE_baSin @ 3.166244
15 Bulgarian + English + Icelandic + RISE_baSin @ 3.181919
16 Albanian + English + English + RISE_baSin @ 3.182617
17 English + English + RISE_baSin + Spanish @ 3.190792
18 Bulgarian + English + Norwegian + RISE_baSin @ 3.193865
19 Croatian + French + RISE_baSin + Scottish @ 3.238219
20 French + French + Hungarian + RISE_baSin @ 3.242281

Done.

Elapsed time 0.1109 seconds.

Fire Haired14
26-03-16, 04:31
Looks like GedrosiaDNA just beat Eurogene to the punch in displaying Neolithic Anatolian genes.

Here it is


Eurasia K10 CHG-NAF Oracle

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
WHG
40.50


2
CHG
21.82


3
Anatolian_Farmers
18.27


4
EHG
17.07


5
SW_Asian
2.15





Those scores are way off. You're more like 40% Anatolia_Neolithic, 10-20% WHG, 20-25% EHG, 10-25% CHG. WHG is an unimportant part of European ancestry. Most WHG-like ancestry is from EHG.

Twilight
26-03-16, 04:38
Those scores are way off. You're more like 40% Anatolia_Neolithic, 10-20% WHG, 20-25% EHG, 10-25% CHG. WHG is an unimportant part of European ancestry. Most WHG-like ancestry is from EHG.

I just edited some stuff while you posted that no no matter :), do you know what kind of test would give me such results; mentioned on the quote box? Just curious

Fire Haired14
26-03-16, 05:11
I just edited some stuff while you posted that no no matter :), do you know what kind of test would give me such results; mentioned on the quote box? Just curious

There's none on GEDmatch. I'm basing those estimates on methods besides ADMIXTURE; D-stats and PCA. You're certainly a typical British/NW European, so the results I posted should be true for you. They could be wrong, I don't know. But there's good reason to believe those are closest to the truth.

Twilight
26-03-16, 05:41
There's none on GEDmatch. I'm basing those estimates on methods besides ADMIXTURE; D-stats and PCA. You're certainly a typical British/NW European, so the results I posted should be true for you. They could be wrong, I don't know. But there's good reason to believe those are closest to the truth.

Acknowledged, I guess perhaps GedrosiaDNA has jumped the gun too soon then. ^_^

MOESAN
27-03-16, 00:26
I think, this has link with the thread. Seeking the links between forerunner of Albanian and Armenian, and Iranian/Indic languages, Caucasus, East Anatolia and close areas I came to the few other interesting things.

Now I think that J2 carriers played a important role in creating Indo European languages, greater then assumed. Usually people think that R carriers (R1a and R1b) are creators of Indo European languages. But my opinion is that J2 folks were significantly involved.

in most of places the overspanning is so small between the Y-R1 and Y-J that I find it hard to link both kinds. The more credible would be one group acculturated the other? I don't clearly see a first kernel with both with approaching %s, at this stage of my readings and feelings.