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Alan
14-06-15, 01:40
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With some further investigating and team work it has been determined that the haplogroup J2a sample from Iron Age Altai belongs to the LM410 subclade. Some further digging and reading also revealed that this sample is labelled RISE602 in the RISE project and was discovered in the Sary-Bel kurgan. It has been dated to Iron Age (900/700 BC-AD 500/1000 ) and a rough translation from a Russian site has this to say about this burial site. ''So Sarah burial cemetery date back to the beginning of Bel-Hun-Sarmatian time and,
may belong to the people, which penetrated into the Altai Mountains to the southeast".

The Bulan-Kobin culture evolved out of the Pazyryk culture which was Scythian. So there seems like there is a good chance then that this J2a-L24 male may have belonged to the Bulan-Kobin culture which had its origins in the earlier Pazyryk culture.


Apparently the other J2 sample from Iron Age Russia actually also comes from Altai. It comes from a site called Kytmanovo. So this is now two J2 samples from Iron Age Altai. This is getting very interesting. Perhaps it was J2/J2a men that introduced iron technology to this part of the world.


I said it sooo many times now it is finally proven. J2a beside R1 and R2 and some G, LT is one of the main Haplogroups of the ancient Indo_Iranians.

A person just needs to look at the overall distribution of Haplogroups among modern Indo_Iranian speakers. J2a is among the most frequent Haplogroups in ALL Indo_Iranian speakers.

And now my words are final confirmed. Even though oN Eurogenes some people still "doubt it".

Alan
15-06-15, 17:40
So we have J2a in Bronze Age Hungary in connection to ANE signals. Now 2xJ2a in Iron Age (900 BC to 700 AD) in Kurgans of Siberia.

bicicleur
16-06-15, 10:17
the J2a in Bronze Age Hungary was J2a1-M67

now we have 2 x J2a2 SK1403 : check this http://j2-m172.info/2015/06/j2a2-ph3085-sk1403-ancient-altai-modern-uygur-turkish/

Alan
16-06-15, 12:00
the J2a in Bronze Age Hungary was J2a1-M67

now we have 2 x J2a2 SK1403 : check this http://j2-m172.info/2015/06/j2a2-ph3085-sk1403-ancient-altai-modern-uygur-turkish/

It is a lineage found in Punjabis and other Central Asians too.

One of the J2a2 is from around 900 BC, too early for any Turkic group and as the article states from the Saka_Scythian epoch. The other 700 AD is the transtion period from Iranic to Turkic in Altais.
Good to see Uygurs having this Haplogroup too. Confirms it Indo_Iranian (maybe even Tocharian) origin imo.

bicicleur
16-06-15, 15:28
check the link in my previous post and also the tree in this link
the Punjabis are not SK1403, they are not even L581, they split on top of the tree
and the oldest is 50 BC, not 900 BC

Alan
16-06-15, 15:35
check the link in my previous post and also the tree in this link
the Punjabis are not SK1403, they are not even L581, they split on top of the tree
and the oldest is 50 BC, not 900 BC



50BC is still Scythian epoch, so where is the issue?


Also Bronze Age J2a being of different subclade than the J2a in the Iron Age Altais isn't so important, for the point that J2a appears in Bronze and Iron Age context, anyways.

We have various R1a and R1b subclades so why all the fuss about J2a in Hungary being slightly different than J2a in Altais?

RHAS
18-06-15, 16:32
Rus J2a Altai J2a Armenian J2b

https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/t31.0-8/11537584_910187692371926_7574298768341963189_o.jpg

7311

https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/t31.0-8/11536487_913256082065087_8366782688745716682_o.jpg

Source: The Frozen Tombs of the Altai Mountains Phase I 2005-2006 http://www.archaeology.ugent.be/file/9

http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2a2


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrwpdRe7meM

BakodiP
20-06-15, 11:30
Rus J2a Altai J2a Armenian J2b

https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/t31.0-8/11537584_910187692371926_7574298768341963189_o.jpg

7311

https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/t31.0-8/11536487_913256082065087_8366782688745716682_o.jpg

Source: The Frozen Tombs of the Altai Mountains Phase I 2005-2006 http://www.archaeology.ugent.be/file/9

http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2a2


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrwpdRe7meM


Where did they get the Armenian samples? What's the difference between irArm and baArm? Approx how many J2b Armenians are we speaking about in this study?

RHAS
20-06-15, 16:40
Where did they get the Armenian samples? What's the difference between irArm and baArm? Approx how many J2b Armenians are we speaking about in this study?

The J2a IrRus (iron age rusia) is from Kytmanovo, the J2a IrAltai (iron age altai) is from Sary-Bel, and the J2b IrArm (iron age Armenia) is from Norabak. Irarm is iron age armenian and ba is bronze age armenian.

Kytmanovo: 53.449727, 85.427022 or 53°26'59.0"N 85°25'37.3"E
Sary-bel: 50.615, 86.459 or 50°36'54.0"N 86°27'32.4"E

Origin of the Indo-Iranians
https://books.google.nl/books?id=x5J9rn8p2-IC&pg=PA25&dq=kytmanovo&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=8rmCVd38JqO07gb994K4Ag&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=kytmanovo&f=false

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/v/t1.0-9/11425438_913366275387401_437194434559447671_n.jpg? oh=e706c873ceb23e96aeea78f50c794801&oe=562E8018

Alpakut
27-06-15, 23:38
It is a lineage found in Punjabis and other Central Asians too.

One of the J2a2 is from around 900 BC, too early for any Turkic group and as the article states from the Saka_Scythian epoch. The other 700 AD is the transtion period from Iranic to Turkic in Altais.
Good to see Uygurs having this Haplogroup too. Confirms it Indo_Iranian (maybe even Tocharian) origin imo.
these ancient J2a samples seem to be more related to present-day Turkic people (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_people) based on Gedmatch results.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172#Central_Asia

Alpakut
27-06-15, 23:39
Country/Region
Sampling
N
J-M172
Study


Afghanistan
Hazara
60
26.6
Haber 2012 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172#CITEREFHaber2012)


Afghanistan
Uzbeks
126
16.0
Di Cristofaro 2013 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172#CITEREFDi_Cristofaro2013)


East Turkestan, China
Uyghurs
50
34.0
Shou 2010 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172#CITEREFShou2010)


East Turkestan, China
Uzbeks
23
30.4
Shou 2010 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172#CITEREFShou2010)


East Turkestan, China
Tajiks
31
16.1
Shou 2010 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172#CITEREFShou2010)


Kazakhstan
Kazakhs
30
13.3
Karafet 2001 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172#CITEREFKarafet2001)


Tajikistan
Yaghnobis
31
32.0
Wells 2001 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172#CITEREFWells2001)


Tajikistan
Tajiks
38
18.4
Wells 2001 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172#CITEREFWells2001)


Turkmenistan
Turkmens
30
17.0
Wells 2001 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172#CITEREFWells2001)


Uzbekistan
Uzbeks
366
13.4
Wells 2001 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172#CITEREFWells2001)

RHAS
27-06-15, 23:59
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10606169_1489020408056630_6575561308546651131_n.jp g?oh=14478c0266d3ff667e441c1cf1a798c1&oe=56347614

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/11659440_1489025318056139_1908378272266357704_n.jp g?oh=09e76527b32edad707dfa6881701670a&oe=56163FC6

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11666311_1489025331389471_3510244486514924010_n.jp g?oh=235eddb3ec166c8625e67703d1071b53&oe=56166279

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/11407194_910886018968760_7010510968808681481_n.jpg ?oh=bc213a375fdb3a7bde37ae1f59eef01e&oe=55EB5B81

Alan
28-06-15, 02:19
these ancient J2a samples seem to be more related to present-day Turkic people (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_people) based on Gedmatch results.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172#Central_Asia
J2a being undoubtley a West Eurasian lineage makes it pretty obvious that this is one of those Haplogroups which late Iron Age Turkic groups inherited from their Iranic speaking part of ancestors.

Therefore it is an Iranic +Turkic Haplogroup. As seen on the table you provided.





Country/Region
Sampling
N
J-M172
Study


Afghanistan
Hazara
60
26.6
Haber 2012 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172#CITEREFHaber2012)


Afghanistan
Uzbeks
126
16.0
Di Cristofaro 2013 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172#CITEREFDi_Cristofaro2013)


East Turkestan, China
Uyghurs
50
34.0
Shou 2010 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172#CITEREFShou2010)


East Turkestan, China
Uzbeks
23
30.4
Shou 2010 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172#CITEREFShou2010)


East Turkestan, China
Tajiks
31
16.1
Shou 2010 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172#CITEREFShou2010)


Kazakhstan
Kazakhs
30
13.3
Karafet 2001 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172#CITEREFKarafet2001)


Tajikistan
Yaghnobis
31
32.0
Wells 2001 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172#CITEREFWells2001)


Tajikistan
Tajiks
38
18.4
Wells 2001 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172#CITEREFWells2001)


Turkmenistan
Turkmens
30
17.0
Wells 2001 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172#CITEREFWells2001)


Uzbekistan
Uzbeks
366
13.4
Wells 2001 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172#CITEREFWells2001)

Alpakut
16-09-15, 10:05
J2a being undoubtley a West Eurasian lineage makes it pretty obvious that this is one of those Haplogroups which late Iron Age Turkic groups inherited from their Iranic speaking part of ancestors.

Therefore it is an Iranic +Turkic Haplogroup. As seen on the table you provided.

This study doesn't let it look like you have suggested: http://j2-m172.info/2015/06/j2a2-ph3085-sk1403-ancient-altai-modern-uygur-turkish/