Very advanced Indoeuropeans - cows reveal their history! :-)

Rethel

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Here ==>>> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...and-a-love-of-dairy-study-shows-10311317.html

pg-10-bronze-age-graphic.jpg



Our European ancestors brought farming,
languages and a love of dairy, study shows.


Thousands of Bronze Age migrants from the Caucuses came to northern
Europe in a major movement of prehistoric people in the 3 millennium BC
.

The making of modern Europe began in earnest about 5,000 years ago when a mass migration of people from what is now southern Russia and Georgia introduced new technology, languages and dairy farming to the continent, a study has found. Thousands of Bronze Age migrants from the Caucuses came to northern Europe in a major movement of prehistoric people in the third millennium BC, according to the largest research project of its kind that analysed the genetic makeup of more than 100 ancient skeletons from the period. The migrants brought new metal skills, spoke what became the basis of almost every other European language – from Greek and Latin to German and English – and carried a genetic mutation that allowed adults to drink cow’s milk.

This lactose-tolerance gene, which enables adults to digest the sugar in milk, is still more prevalent in north Europeans today than in most other regions of the world. This illustrates the historic importance of dairy food in the North European diet, the scientists said. The mass migration was one of the most significant in European history, equivalent to the colonisation of the Americas, and was a transformative period in terms of the change in languages and culture that it brought about, the researchers believe. “The single most important finding from our study is that the Bronze Age, which is relatively recent, is when the major genetic landscape affecting modern-day Europeans was formed. It’s a surprise as it happened so recently,” said Eske Willerslev, professor of evolutionary genetics at the University of Copenhagen. “Our study is the first, real large-scale population genomic study ever undertaken on ancient individuals. We analysed genome sequence data from 101 past individuals. This is more than a doubling of the number of genomic sequenced individuals of prehistoric man generated to date,” Professor Willerslev said. “The results show that the genetic composition and distribution of peoples in Europe and Asia today is a surprisingly late phenomenon, only a few thousand years old,” he said. The genomic analysis, published in the journal Nature, indicates that the Yamnaya people who lived in the Caucuses about 5,000 years ago were responsible for spreading not just their innovative cultural ideas and languages, but their DNA across a vast area extending from the Urals to Scandinavia. They effectively replaced the older Neolithic farmers and hunter-gatherers who had occupied the northern Europe for thousands of years previously, presumably aided by the Yamnaya’s ability to smelt bronze and copper and herd cattle, Professor Willerslev said. “They brought with them new technology, new family structures, new religion and new ways of burying their dead. They also brought the start of cities. They were a high-tech culture,” he said.

The Yamnaya also probably introduced genes for brown eyes, pale skin and tall stature to northern Europeans in the third millennium BC, which at that time was inhabited by dark skinned, blue-eyed, short people, he said. Crucially, they also brought the lactose-tolerance mutation that would allow adults to drink cow’s milk, a useful genetic attribute for healthy nutrition. “Previously, the common belief was that lactose tolerance developed in the Balkans or in the Middle East in connection with the introduction of farming during the Stone Age,” said Martin Sikora of the Natural History Museum in Copenhagen, a co-author of the study. “But now we can see that even late in the Bronze Age the mutation that gives rise to the tolerance is rare in Europe. We think that it may have been introduced into Europe with the Yamnaya herders from the Caucasus but that the selection that has made most Europeans lactose tolerant has happened at a much later time,” Dr Sikora said. Professor Kristian Kristiansen, an archaeologist at the University of Gothenburg, said the study resolves some of the questions about whether this period in prehistory was dominated by the movement of ideas or the migration and settlement of people en masse. “The old Neolithic farming cultures were replaced by a completely new perception of family, property and personhood. I and other archaeologists share the opinion that these changes came about as a result of massive migrations,” Professor Kristiansen said. The study, led by Morten Allentoft of the Natural History Museum in Copenhagen, also found that the Yamnaya people migrated east to occupy parts of Central Asia. They were eventually replaced by eastern Asians about 2,000 years ago.

I see here minimum one problem in that. If yamna-people brought into Northern
Europe brown eyes, where originally were only blue, then, how it happend, that
another Indoeuropeans - as was for example said in the end of the article - who
migrated in totally diffrenet parts of Eurasia, had blue eyes, for exaple in Central
Asia, India, Mesopotamia and even in present day China and Mongolia??? It does
not make any sens, especially that usually blue eyes are combined with pale skin
and dark skin is combined with brown eyes, with exeptions of course.

Modern day example from Iran, Muhammad Ali Ramin, Irans minister:

Mohammad-Ali_Ramin.png



So, when did the pre-indoeuropean blue-eyed "scandinavians"
invade iranian plateau, ancient Egypt or lands as far as Gansu? :rolleyes:

Second, they wrote:

They brought with them new technology, new family
structures, new religion
and new ways of burying
their dead.
They also brought the start of cities. They
were a hightech culture” he said. (...)
The old Neolithic
farming cultures were replaced by a completly new
perception of family, property and personhood.


But they didn't mention any specifics. So, my question is: what were this new customs,
ideas, perceptions and belives and what was the old ones? Somebody maybe knows?

:rolleyes:
 
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There were few "blue-eyed" Proto-Indo Europeans. The Aryans are the ones who settled in the Iranian Plateau around 2,200 BCE. They arrived there from Turkmenistan. Probably due to famine or a long drought. From "Iran" they moved into what is now Afghanistan and then into NW India. They were mostly males (or had too many males who could not marry) and they married the native women. That's why there are so few individuals who retained their original features.
Mohammad-Ali_Ramin.png

This guy looks very Nordic! Amazing! I wonder how many are still there?
 
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There were no "blue-eyed" Proto-Indo Europeans

If there were no blue-eyed, then explain, how the
blue-ones arrived into the China, India and Egypt?
How this guy on the photo get his eyes? And how
it is possible, that in Scandinavia, recessive gen of
pale skin and tall height dominate the population,
but dominate gen on brown eyes does not? If the
locals were a minority - they had to be, because in
the other way, present day scandinavians would be
still small and dark, as it happend in Asia - how they
dominate whole population whith recessive blue gen,
if they couldn't dominate with two dominate-gens?
 
it's not worth quarreling about, the data are still to ambiguous
just a little patience
Nature predicts 10s of 1000s new anciant genomes within the next 5 years

anyway this is present DNA in Iran :

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0041252#pone-0041252-g002

R1a1a 13.9 %
R1b1a2 : 9.3 %
Q1a2-M25 (Karasuk?) : 3.2 %

IMO could explain the minister's blue eyes

also 22.5 % J2 in Iran ; neolithic and/or iron age steppe origin?
 
If there were no blue-eyed, then explain, how the
blue-ones arrived into the China, India and Egypt?
How this guy on the photo get his eyes? And how
it is possible, that in Scandinavia, recessive gen of
pale skin and tall height dominate the population,
but dominate gen on brown eyes does not? If the
locals were a minority - they had to be, because in
the other way, present day scandinavians would be
still small and dark, as it happend in Asia - how they
dominate whole population whith recessive blue gen,
if they couldn't dominate with two dominate-gens?

OK my bad: I meant to say the blue-eyed Proto-Indo-Europeans were a minority. Most of the people had dark eyes and dark hair but with pale to olive skin tone. The reason why some Indo-Europeans, such as the Germanics, have a high incidence of blue eyes is that they became an isolated tribe. There were many tribes with different colors of hair and eyes. Some had more red-haired and blue eyes and others simply had more dark hair and brown eyes. They were all mixed. But if a tribe who had a majority of the population who possessed red and blonde hair and blue eyes and become isolated from others for a long time, then the red-blonde-blue-eyed will dominate as it happened with the Germanics and the original Celts.

The guy in the post got his Nordic looks from the remnants of the Aryans. Aryans must have looked very similar to Germans. There were a very small minority, however. The vast majority of the population were of Semitic/Dravidian origin. How this guy survived is a miracle!

Where do you get this blue eyes in China, India, and Egypt??? Tocharians were an example of what I was talking about but they were mostly brown eyed. I know because I went to the Urumqi museum and saw the mummies. And I told you already that the Aryans and Skythians who wondered all over Central Asia mixed with Dravidians and Mongol people because they did not have enough women to go around. Egypt? Berbers had some people with blue eyes or green eyes and light hair. So what?

NOTE: among Indo-Europeans or Aryans blue eyes and blonde hair -- even red hair and blue eyes -- were considered very beautiful. So was pale skin or white skin. Thus any one who possessed these traits was highly sought for mating. Most of the nobles had these traits while the mass of commoners had dark hair and eyes. Blonde hair and blue eyes were a sign of power.
 
The author is a little confused, but that's okay. Yamnaya had ancestry from the ancient Caucasus, but their relatives did not go to Europe straight from the Caucasus. It isn't confirmed Yamnaya is THE source of lactose tolerance,. I doubt Yamnaya made people taller, but who knows.

@Rethel,
I see here minimum one problem in that. If yamna-people brought into Northern
Europe brown eyes, where originally were only blue, then, how it happend, that
another Indoeuropeans - as was for example said in the end of the article - who
migrated in totally diffrenet parts of Eurasia, had blue eyes

Pre-Historic Hirisplex results.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K7SKM42rHBUsM-ncLtL314NVWGMVfBniWU8fZIAV0uo/edit

Unlike with lactose tolerance and tall height, I'm convinced Yamanya-types are a source for brown eyes.

The reason IEs in Central Asia(Sintashta, Andronvo) had a lot of blue eyes is they were immigrants from Europe. This has been confirmed. They probably had more non-Yamnaya blood than Yamnaya blood. This is also probably why they had R1a and Yamnaya had R1b.

It sounds mythical, but Mesolithic West Europeans appear to have been a blue eyed people(Like 100%) and the source of that trait today. The source for brown eyes in Europe today come from Neolithic Middle Eastern immigrants and Bronze age Steppe immigrants. I'd also say it's likely Neolithic Europeans are the source for diverse array of hair color, while Yamnaya was probably uniformly black. Markers associated with every hair color have been found in Neolithic and Mesolithic Europeans.
 
I doubt Yamnaya made people taller, but who knows.
Unlike with lactose tolerance and tall height, I'm convinced Yamanya-types are a source for brown eyes.

The reason IEs in Central Asia(Sintashta, Andronvo) had a lot of blue eyes is they were immigrants from Europe. This has been confirmed. They probably had more non-Yamnaya blood than Yamnaya blood. This is also probably why they had R1a and Yamnaya had R1b.

It sounds mythical, but Mesolithic West Europeans appear to have been a blue eyed people(Like 100%) and the source of that trait today. The source for brown eyes in Europe today come from Neolithic Middle Eastern immigrants and Bronze age Steppe immigrants. I'd also say it's likely Neolithic Europeans are the source for diverse array of hair color, while Yamnaya was probably uniformly black. Markers associated with every hair color have been found in Neolithic and Mesolithic Europeans.

Its impossible for any population to have 100% blue eyes. That goes against the laws of genetics. Again: it all about genetics. It does not matter what race or what your phenotype is, dominant traits always dominate the genes. And dominant genes are black/brown eyes and dark hair. There was never all blue eyed people who dominated. It was always brown eyed and hair. Simple. The anomaly is that populations get isolated and that's why there are such peoples who look so different from others. For example: in Los Altos de Jalisco, Mexico, there are found many people with strong Nordic traits. How did these genes get there? Simple: Castilians have a strong infusion of Celtic and Gothic DNA. So many migrated to Mexico 500 years ago and lived in isolated in towns and cities and only mixed among themselves. Over time their phenotype will dominate in the region. Same for Germanics and Celts.

What made the Yamnaya and Corded Ware people taller and bigger? the high protein diet. Meat, milk, eggs, and cheese, make for bigger muscles and bigger brains!
 
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Its impossible for any population to have 100% blue eyes.

True, but WHG was close to 100%. They're the source of that trait today. In the case of Central Asian IEs(Sintashta/Andronovo), like I said before they looked differnt from Yamnaya because they had a bunch of WHG, because they were immigrants from probably around Ukraine. It wasn't because of isolation.
 

It is not available.

The reason IEs in Central Asia(Sintashta, Andronvo) had a lot of blue eyes is they were immigrants from Europe. This has been confirmed. They probably had more non-Yamnaya blood than Yamnaya blood. This is also probably why they had R1a and Yamnaya had R1b.

Ok, momento, that means that I missed something!

Usually the Corded Ware Culture was cosiderd as formed by invaders from the steppe, with bears R1a.
Did something change in that matter? If yes, then when and how R1a get into Scandinavia?

It sounds mythical, but Mesolithic West Europeans appear to have been a blue eyed people(Like 100%) and the source of that trait today.

It is not mythical, existing of such population is suspected, but I still dout that it was in the west. One
hybrid man excavate in Spain dosen't seems for me to be convincing. Especially, when everywhere in
the west and south of Europe where this blueeyed people should live dominate dark types with dark
eyes. The same was excavated 100 years ago by anthropologist, and the same seems proof present
genetic resaerches about ancient peoples. This blue eyes - it shouldn't be there! :rolleyes:
Maybe it was some very early migration from the east, or they captured the eastern women? :innocent: :)

The source for brown eyes in Europe today come from Neolithic Middle Eastern immigrants

Ok, no problem.

and Bronze age Steppe immigrants.

This is problematic in the case of corded ware people,
but if I am backward with the latest excavations, then
I'm ready to hearing the newest news :)

I'd also say it's likely Neolithic Europeans are the source for diverse array of hair color, while Yamnaya was probably uniformly black. Markers associated with every hair color have been found in Neolithic and Mesolithic Europeans.

Hmm...
But there were yet another R1a (and probably some b) in the eastern forest whom spred this genes into Asia.
So, it dosent seem to be the (only) mesolitic pre-indoeuropean people, because it dosn't seem quite logic. Btw,
everywhere in history where was pale, red/blond, and lighteyed people, there always where some IE, and
even if the archeological or cultural materials didn't seem to fit, sooner or later, come in, that in that places
were some IE, by culture, language, religion or hg. But it was never a principle whith another groups of people.
So, I'm ready to gamble, that origin of lightiness was mostly conected to some stage of Indoeuropeans origin.
How old and which stage - I don't know, but it was this ethnos, and this tribe, where we should looking for.
037.gif
 
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Rethel I'm 100% agree with you; there are something completly wrong with these analysis; we talk about a minority (WHG) with a huge recessive trait (blue eyes) and dark skin (?) mixed with two different larger populations with brown eyes, and everybody end with light eyes ?:LOL:

There are something wrong with the analysis of light eyes etc...; for example a modern group of amerindians (non mixed) have the gene of light eyes (Herc2) but have dark brown eyes;

there are also the problem of Yamna, like you have said every others groups of proto-indo-europeans have a majority light eyes and hairs, but not Yamna; for example see this post of Eurogenes:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.fr/2015/03/population-genetics-of-copper-and.html

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQbVVHNjA2Um1FLXM/view?pli=1

You can see this population of proto-indo-Europeans in this link, older than Yamna:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globular_Amphora_culture

According the link posted by Eurogenes, 70-80% of them (Globular, ancestors of Corded War) have light eyes and light hairs (Tyr and Herc2); and Yamna around 20% of light eyes; so imho; there are something wrong; there are also the fact that Samara (ancestor of Yamna) was blond and blue eyed (according Genetiker), and bell beaker R1b have an important part of light hairs and eyes...it's for that, I don't believe the theory quoted by Fire Haired 14; that Andronovo have taken the genes in west, and go in Asia etc...for me that have absolutely no sense.

First there are no R1a in Yamna , so I doubt Yamna are the original proto-indo-europeans; we have found haplogroup R1b but also I2 among them; and their female lineages are for a good part Armenians, that sound like they (Yamna) are invaders and they have taken Caucasus wives (like they have done in various places, Iran, India etc...); in theory that could have changed theirs physical appearances; but that my point of view...; but this theory don't change something weird about this analysis; we know now, thanks Reich, that Yamna were near half WHG; yeah the same WHG with so-called 100% blue eyes...my question is very simple, how we don't have found more blue eyes; among a population half WHG ? there are also the fact that we don't have the haplogroup Y of the Yamna folks tested for light hairs/eyes, so there are a problem to know their identity (I2 ? R1b ? etc...); Yamna were also close to modern North and east Europeans genetically (more than 50%) a population well known for to have light hairs and eyes.

For the proto-Europeans, I think Genetiker have an interesting point of view (that they have always been in the western part of Europe), but there are also the great post in this forum by Tomenables; about the origins of proto-Indo-Europeans closer to Finland:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...pport-PIE-homeland-near-Proto-Uralic-homeland

Johannes, I'm agree with you, that don't exist a population with 100% of blue eyes, and according a previous study, this genes is very young (around 8000 BC); so among WHG, there were brown eyes; in the other hand for the Tocharians; there are plenty of light hairs according Mair, for example Cherchen man (red hairs), there are also a blonds mummies, there are also the historical description of the Yuzehi or the Scythians , that show clearly that they were very light hairs and eyes.
 
@Rethel,
Ok, momento, that means that I missed something!

Usually the Corded Ware Culture was cosiderd as formed by invaders from the steppe, with bears R1a.
Did something change in that matter? If yes, then when and how R1a get into Scandinavia?
Sintashta migration.png

The DNA files from the 101 Ancient Eurasians in Allentoft is online. People online have analysed their DNA. Sintashta/Andronovo were Eastern Europeans, with some Siberian ancestry. Allentoft also said it appears they were immigrants from Europe(with Yamnaya ancestry), not straight from Yamnaya. Yes, a lot of their ancestry was Yamnaya-like, but just as much or more wasn't. They had a high amount of WHG, which is certainly the source of their blue eyes.

R1a1-M417 probably originally comes from the "Steppe". It was brought west and then east again. Sintashta and Corded Ware got their R1a1 from the same Western source(Ukraine maybe). R1a1-M417 was spread mostly by Corded Ware and Sintashta, and their descendants.

This is problematic in the case of corded ware people,
but if I am backward with the latest excavations, then
I'm ready to hearing the newest news :)

My Hirisplex thing should be accessible now.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K7SKM42rHBUsM-ncLtL314NVWGMVfBniWU8fZIAV0uo/edit

Yamnaya was 90%+ Brown eyed, while Neolithic Central-North Europeans were only 50%. Ones with more WHG would have been majority blue eyed.

It's very simple. Brown eyed Yamnaya-types went into Europe and mixed with mostly blue eyed WHG-rich people. The result was Late Neolithic/Bronze age Europeans(inclu. Corded Ware) who were mostly brown eyed, but had much less than Yamnaya. Later blue eyes were selected for and became a slight majority.

Btw,
everywhere in history where was pale, red/blond, and lighteyed people, there always where some IE

It's hard to say where these traits come from, but we do know they had formed basically as they are today circa 2500BC in Central-East-North Europe after Yamnaya types mixed with EEF/WHG natives. Like I've said it's clear the blue eyes are from EEF/WHG, although I don't know about the other traits. Sintashta/Andronovo were North Europeans, with varying amounts of Siberian admixture. They had these traits because of that, not because of Yamnaya ancestry. Yamnaya themselves as far as we can tell did not have these traits at a high frequency.
 
:)

And where was Yamna?
2student.gif





It wouldn't be possible for survival and dominate some areas by
recessive genes if they wouldn't be in an isolate group of people.
This is sine qua non.

Recessive gene doesn't mean that a gene will vanish into a thin air. It means that it takes two sets, from Mother and Father, to make it work, like blue eyes. If mother has two genes, one for Blue and one for Brown eyes, and the same with father. In most combinations of parents' genes you will get brown eye kids. There is only one chance out of 4, that a kid inherits two blue copies, one from each parent, and will have blue eyes. This can continue till the end of the world. Unless natural selection kicks in and weeds out the gene.

Of course if few blue eye people mix with huge population of brown eye folks, the blue genes will get deluded and a chance of combination of two of them (to make blue eyes) will drop dramatically. But it will happen from time to time that two carriers of blue eye genes will mate and have blue eye kid. Like in case of blue eye Iranian minister. If you know something about mathematics and statistics, you should figure it out.
 
Fire haired 14, see these links:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.fr/2015/03...opper-and.html

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o...LXM/view?pli=1

You can see the ancestors of Corded Ware, clearly indo-europeans have a majority of light hairs and eyes, so no Corded were not brown eyes; in fact their ancestors Globular Amphora Culture is older than Yamna, so why continue to consider Yamna to be the first indo-Europeans ? according Genetiker Samara have been tested with blond and blue eyes, (supposed to be the ancestors of Yamna)...also according the recent test, Yamna is something around half WHG ? so why they don't have the famous blue eyes genes.

Lebrok, okay, but the problem the WHG is supposed to be a tiny minority who have been mixed with 2 far largest groups of brown eyes; and according various test, blue eyes are extremely recessive, for example in USA the blue eyes will be extremely rare:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/18/world/americas/18iht-web.1018eyes.3199975.html?_r=0
 
As Johannes said PIE (If we go by Yamna theory) were predominantly dark haired and eyed. A part of them moved to Northeast and Central Europe mixing with the EEF people there and becoming Corded Ware. Those were still rather Dark haired and eyed though in middle of the process of becoming lighter.

Than we have the Sintashta/Andronovo who were either migrants from CW OR just a geneticwise very similar group.

Those Andronvo people however were now by majority (60%) light haired and eyed (includes green eyes and brown hair).

Those Andronovo merged with BMAC and gave birth to the Indo_Iranians around what is modern day Turkmenistan, Uzebkistan/Northeast Iran and Southeastern portion of Kazakhstan.

And Aryan is the ethnic designation of just one branch, namely the Indo_Iranians.
 
Fire haired, see my post and the link from Eurogenes with Globular Amphora Culture, they are older than Yamna and ancestors of Corded folks, they have plenty of light hairs and eyes, also according Genetiker, Samara is supposed to be blond and blue eyes...and ancestor of Yamna, there are also the fact that Yamna is supposed to be around half WHG (according Reich); so I guess it's not a minority with WHG...they should have this gene.

Lebrok

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/18/world/americas/18iht-web.1018eyes.3199975.html?_r=0

blue eyes are supposed extremely recessive, in USA that will be near an invisible minority very soon because of the mixing, so how a minority WHG with blue eyes and dark skin, after mixed with by far two largest groups than them; give a majority of blue eyed peoples ? That have no sense.
 
Recessive gene doesn't mean that a gene will vanish into a thin air. It means that it takes two sets, from Mother and Father, to make it work, like blue eyes. If mother has two genes, one for Blue and one for Brown eyes, and the same with father. In most combinations of parents' genes you will get brown eye kids. There is only one chance out of 4, that a kid inherits two blue copies, one from each parent, and will have blue eyes. This can continue till the end of the world. Unless natural selection kicks in and weeds out the gene.

Of course if few blue eye people mix with huge population of brown eye folks, the blue genes will get deluded and a chance of combination of two of them (to make blue eyes) will drop dramatically. But it will happen from time to time that two carriers of blue eye genes will mate and have blue eye kid. Like in case of blue eye Iranian minister. If you know something about mathematics and statistics, you should figure it out.

Le Brok,
and this is the reason, why in Asia light types almost vanished.
They could mostly be preserved in some closed communities,
like Pamirs valleys or couple of villages in Media or Cappadokia...
The same would be in Europe, if Yamnaya invasion would carry
majority of dark eyes, because they had to be overwhelmingly
more numerious than short and dark skinned locals - as it was
mentioned in the basic article...

So, they couldn't be in 90% dark-eyed :)
 
True, but WHG was close to 100%. They're the source of that trait today. In the case of Central Asian IEs(Sintashta/Andronovo), like I said before they looked differnt from Yamnaya because they had a bunch of WHG, because they were immigrants from probably around Ukraine. It wasn't because of isolation.

How do you know the Western Hunter Gatherers were blue eyed??? is there some magical study that actually saw all samples as blue eyed? We dont know what the Yamnaya or Sintashta-Andrononvo people looked like (I mean as far as eye colored). We can only guess or infer. You are assuming the WHG were this and the IE were that. You are simply guessing.
 
That have no sense.

It not only have no sense, but it is totaly science-fiction :)

And totaly cotradictionary with eyed-obsevable world, were
we have plenty of examples how recessive populations were
absorbed by dominate-gen populations.

It simply doesn't work, or maybe in
Scandinavia had place some miracle :)
 

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