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Jwray3
19-06-15, 11:58
Just curious, does anyone know the reference(s) used to the compile the write up of I2a2a3 (Z161+) under the genetics section?

It's an awesome write up - I'm just curious as to the source of the information is.

Fire Haired14
19-06-15, 21:26
Just curious, does anyone know the reference(s) used to the compile the write up of I2a2a3 (Z161+) under the genetics section?

It's an awesome write up - I'm just curious as to the source of the information is.

Academic papers and commercial DNA testing companies are the source as to where Z161 exists. I trust that the author got his information from actual sources and didn't guess. He lists some of them here (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCUQygQwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eupedia.com%2Feurope%2Forigin s_haplogroups_europe.shtml%23Sources&ei=F2yEVeCFOYuVyASZooLIDg&usg=AFQjCNEn6ZFLtflmXRCCwrjuWIe6q2POmA&sig2=yZm9hxeP_oSRsCII19-sKQ&bvm=bv.96042044,d.aWw).The theories as to what it's history and origins are, are the opinion of the author.

The name of I2a2a-M223 clades keep changing because new ones keep being found. Z161 is now known as I2a2a1b2.

Several I2a2s have been found in Pre-Historic Europe, including a confirmed Z161 from Bronze age Russia. Ancient Y DNA makes it clear I2a2a-M223 comes from Mesolithic Western Europe and that it's one of the Pre-Indo European lineages of Western Europe. Although I2a2a-M223 was a minority lineage in Early IEs in Russia.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12G2cfjG0wHWarsl5bB99ridFmvUWzqlZfZ6_e_R6oIA/edit#gid=898544046

Jwray3
24-06-15, 17:03
Thanks for the response. I've read most of the papers that would seemingly be related to M223 Z161 but unfortunately most don't address Z161. When Hg I is addressed in most of these studies, they focus on SNPs further upstream - like M170 and M223 rather than as far down as Z161.

I personally very much want to believe the author's write up. I am extremely excited about the possibility of some of my ancestors being southern scandinavian.

The only issue is that I'm just not seeing academic papers backing that up for Z161.

Jason Neuharth
26-06-15, 06:42
Academic papers and commercial DNA testing companies are the source as to where Z161 exists. I trust that the author got his information from actual sources and didn't guess. He lists some of them here (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCUQygQwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eupedia.com%2Feurope%2Forigin s_haplogroups_europe.shtml%23Sources&ei=F2yEVeCFOYuVyASZooLIDg&usg=AFQjCNEn6ZFLtflmXRCCwrjuWIe6q2POmA&sig2=yZm9hxeP_oSRsCII19-sKQ&bvm=bv.96042044,d.aWw).The theories as to what it's history and origins are, are the opinion of the author.

The name of I2a2a-M223 clades keep changing because new ones keep being found. Z161 is now known as I2a2a1b2.

Several I2a2s have been found in Pre-Historic Europe, including a confirmed Z161 from Bronze age Russia. Ancient Y DNA makes it clear I2a2a-M223 comes from Mesolithic Western Europe and that it's one of the Pre-Indo European lineages of Western Europe. Although I2a2a-M223 was a minority lineage in Early IEs in Russia.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12G2cfjG0wHWarsl5bB99ridFmvUWzqlZfZ6_e_R6oIA/edit#gid=898544046
Also in bronze age hungary
RISE247 Hungary Vatya I2a2a-L368
RISE254 Hungary Vatya I2a2a-L59
RISE479 Hungary Vatya I2a2a1a2a2-SK1247/Y4915
And mid neolithic hungary


NE7 (http://www.y-str.org/2014/10/ancient-hungarian-neolithic-genome-ne7.html)
Apc-Berekalja I., Hungary
F999928
M
I-L1228
N1a
4360-4490 cal BC
Ancient Hungarian genome - NE7 (http://www.y-str.org/2014/10/ancient-hungarian-neolithic-genome-ne7.html)


last is oldest I-M223 found in a grave.
Your statement here is a false statement (Ancient Y DNA makes it clear I2a2a-M223 comes from Mesolithic Western Europe). It should say (Ancient Y DNA makes it clear I2a2a-M223 comes from Mesolithic southeastern Europe) to be correct with data for the past.

bicicleur
26-06-15, 08:53
Also in bronze age hungary
RISE247 Hungary Vatya I2a2a-L368
RISE254 Hungary Vatya I2a2a-L59
RISE479 Hungary Vatya I2a2a1a2a2-SK1247/Y4915
And mid neolithic hungary


NE7 (http://www.y-str.org/2014/10/ancient-hungarian-neolithic-genome-ne7.html)
Apc-Berekalja I., Hungary
F999928
M
I-L1228
N1a
4360-4490 cal BC
Ancient Hungarian genome - NE7 (http://www.y-str.org/2014/10/ancient-hungarian-neolithic-genome-ne7.html)


last is oldest I-M223 found in a grave.
Your statement here is a false statement (Ancient Y DNA makes it clear I2a2a-M223 comes from Mesolithic Western Europe). It should say (Ancient Y DNA makes it clear I2a2a-M223 comes from Mesolithic southeastern Europe) to be correct with data for the past.

there is also middle neolithic La Mina Spain, Mina4 3900-3600 BC I2a2a1
TRMCA for I2a2a is +/- 13000 years
it looks like I2a2-M223 spread over Europe in mesolithic times

I still favour a northwest European (Doggerland?) origin

Jason Neuharth
26-06-15, 16:26
there is also middle neolithic La Mina Spain, Mina4 3900-3600 BC I2a2a1
TRMCA for I2a2a is +/- 13000 years
it looks like I2a2-M223 spread over Europe in mesolithic times

I still favour a northwest European (Doggerland?) origin
new mutation rates put I-M223 TRMCA at 9000 bp which puts at 7000bc Doggerland was gone the one in Spain is later then the Hungarian sample.

Jason Neuharth
26-06-15, 16:36
RISE552 Ulan IV, Russia F999946 M I-S12195 T2a1a 3940 years RISE552 has matches with living people
this one in russia by Georgia it 1000 miles from the Hungarian sites and one site in Spain is 1000 miles form Hungarian sample. I'm seeing M223 Epicenter around Hungary and Romania.

Jwray3
30-06-15, 16:49
Hold on, hold on - we are drifting off topic.
This thread is NOT about M223 it is about it's sub-clade Z161.

Right now I am looking asking about a limb on the tree, not asking about the roots - those are subterranean to the conversation.

There are plenty of other threads you can debate that.

Jason Neuharth
01-07-15, 15:03
Hold on, hold on - we are drifting off topic.
This thread is NOT about M223 it is about it's sub-clade Z161.

Right now I am looking asking about a limb on the tree, not asking about the roots - those are subterranean to the conversation.

There are plenty of other threads you can debate that.

Sorry Jwray3 but only thoeries with Z161 and present guess. If it helps I'm positive for Z161. My family came from Moldova.

Jwray3
07-07-15, 06:52
Jason- no need for apologies. It's interesting that you indicate you paternal ancestry is from Maldova. That would certainly support the authors theory on Z161.

Although the presence of Z161 in bronze aged Russia fire haired identified does raise a flag of concern.

It's just too bad no one is researching/consolidating data on Z161 anymore.

MOESAN
16-07-15, 22:31
I have no based opinion, so I wait more findings forn past DNA.
concerning imagination, I keep in a corner of my head Y-I2a2... is very widely spred and is found very often in metals ores regions, far in West, far in East; a Bronze Age development after - somewhere - some elements of an ex-WHG accultured population became a metallurgist cast or prospection specialists? origin in a mountainous region? (mountains are good providers of metals)

Jason Neuharth
20-10-15, 00:13
Megalithic
Spain
La Mina [I0406/Mina 4]
M
3900-3600 BC
I2a2a1b2
Z161+, CTS9183+, L368+, L34+, P221+, P223+, P222+, M223+, P220+, L1195-
H1

Haak 2015; Mathieson 2015 updated on Mina 4 ancient dna