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LeBrok
01-07-15, 16:45
Five years ago I recommended that Greeks should go bankrupt and start afresh. They could have been out of recession by now, growing their economy outside of Eurozone.
I'm surprise this farce is still going on.
Let's see how Greeks vote today. I have a feeling they will vote for staying in European Union and Eurozone, sort of "safer option".

However, no matter if they vote for staying, they might not be able to pay their mountain of debt. Either some debt needs to be forgiven or suspended, or eventually Greeks will go bankrupt and forced to leave Eurozone.

There might be another question. If Eurozone country goes bankrupt, does it need to leave Eurozone?

Angela
01-07-15, 17:32
Five years ago I recommended that Greeks should go bankrupt and start afresh. They could have been out of recession by now, growing their economy outside of Eurozone.
I'm surprise this farce is still going on.
Let's see how Greeks vote today. I have a feeling they will vote for staying in European Union and Eurozone, sort of "safer option".

However, no matter if they vote for staying, they might not be able to pay their mountain of debt. Either some debt needs to be forgiven or suspended, or eventually Greeks will go bankrupt and forced to leave Eurozone.

There might be another question. If Eurozone country goes bankrupt, does it need to leave Eurozone?

I agree. I think it would be best for them to just default and get it over with. Does anyone know who holds the majority of their debt, by the way? Do the American investment banks still hold a chunk of it? If they do, serves them right if they lose their money since their mortgage backed securities, which they knew were junk, helped create this mess. Payback is a *****.



Interestingly, Puerto Rico seems to be on the same course.

Maleth
01-07-15, 18:11
Economy is not my forte, but I believe that Greece has falsified accounts to be able to meet the criteria needed to join the Eurozone which of course would have a ripple effect and spelled trouble from the beginning with spending MUCH more then it could afford. The taxation system is pretty much outdated and lots of unofficial (undeclared) business going on. If this was tackled seriously it would not be in the positions it is today. Up to a few years ago Greece had a robust economy and when I keep hearing that it seems that the most vulnerable people with low pensions and lower income brackets have to pay for this mess it just make me sick. What about a fair taxation for people who can afford more and would hardly feel the impact? Something is very very wrong.

ed voted stay in eurozone

Angela
01-07-15, 18:32
Economy is not my forte, but I believe that Greece has falsified accounts to be able to meet the criteria needed to join the Eurozone which of course would have a ripple effect and spelled trouble from the beginning with spending MUCH more then it could afford. The taxation system is pretty much outdated and lots of unofficial (undeclared) business going on. If this was tackled seriously it would not be in the positions it is today. Up to a few years ago Greece had a robust economy and when I keep hearing that it seems that the most vulnerable people with low pensions and lower income brackets have to pay for this mess it just make me sick. What about a fair taxation for people who can afford more and would hardly feel the impact? Something is very very wrong.

The Greek government is very much to blame as well, Maleth; I never meant to imply otherwise. It's just that the investment banks that sold them that junk are culpable as well, and I have no sympathy for them if they lose their investment. I'm no believer in bailouts for banks; it's just welfare for big corporations. You make decisions like that, you eat it.

From my experience, it's always the people with the most to lose who pay for the chicanery of their leaders. It makes me sick, too, believe me.

Now that they're in this mess, though, hopefully the people in charge will bite the bullet and do the best they can.

Maleth
01-07-15, 19:37
Now that they're in this mess, though, hopefully the people in charge will bite the bullet and do the best they can.

My hope too. Maybe this was needed. It would be the third bail out in six years. There need to be some kind of limit.

Garrick
01-07-15, 19:47
Five years ago I recommended that Greeks should go bankrupt and start afresh. They could have been out of recession by now, growing their economy outside of Eurozone.
I'm surprise this farce is still going on.
Let's see how Greeks vote today. I have a feeling they will vote for staying in European Union and Eurozone, sort of "safer option".

However, no matter if they vote for staying, they might not be able to pay their mountain of debt. Either some debt needs to be forgiven or suspended, or eventually Greeks will go bankrupt and forced to leave Eurozone.

There might be another question. If Eurozone country goes bankrupt, does it need to leave Eurozone?

I think Eurozone will find ways to survive and makes progress. It is big idea that one currency is common for European countries. In future more countries will be in Eurozone than what is today.

Yetos
01-07-15, 22:01
yo guys

I am Greek and I do not worry,

soon Balkans will burn again,
so do not worry,

if not EU then Cosco and allies is here, if not Cosco, BRICS, if not BRICKS, ISIS,

there is a bookhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#31958629) from 1952 by ισιδωρος Ποσδαγλης an economist, which say about that crisis and why it is be,
so I do not worry,
I just cleaned and polished my guns,
war is in East mediterenean and balkans again,
At Aimos peninsula Hephaistos light his vulk again

Do not afraid for us,


there are 4 models in oil drilling countries,

1) Norway and Scotland style
2) Arabic countries and Nigeria and religious wars
3) USA Russia
4) Latin American style.

our future is either 2 either 4 type,
we know it,
so what is going to happen let it happen,
400 years we survivedhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#20632744) Ottomans and other 800 Romans
maybe we deserve such faith, cause we learn to livehttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#8544906) like ΜΗΔEIΖΕΙΝ

Personally I deny any kind of depth, and I will not go to vote at referendum, cause i want it to fail and be unfaithfull reaching 50% of population, but ....


https:/ wwwhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#19411780).youtube.com/watch?v=KfoGQH7r3DQ&spfreload=10



when it will have clear skies
when February comes,
to take my gun
and my beutifull cartridge belt
.....................................
.....................................
to make mothers without sons
and women without men
to make many many children
to cry with out mothers


Bankers will not take our carbonhydrogens so cheap!!!!!
neither our sea neither our mountains,
neither our ports, neither our roads
but most of all our souls


I HOPE NOTHING
I FEAR NOTHING
I AM FREE
Ν kazantzakis

bicicleur
01-07-15, 22:18
Greece falsified their figures with the aid of Goldman Sachs in order to meet the requirements to get acces to the Euro
Euro-politicians were aware of that but looked the other way
When they were in the Euro Greece had acces to easy money by loans
With that money the Greek government hired 140.000 extra people in the government adminsitration which they didn't need and who were totaly unproductive
They were simply distributing the easy money in order to keep everyone happy and get re-elected.
One example : on the island Zakynthos with 30.000 inhabitants 1.500 got a monthly pay because they were 'blind'
Among these 1.500 almost all taxi drivers of the island were included.
In 2008 there was financial crisis, easy money was finished for Greece.
But banks came in because Greece was paying high interest to keep up the financing.
Greece didn't get bankrupt because Europe had to save these banks who had taken unjustified risks.
Moreover Europe was afraid of spillover to ohter countries like Portugal, Spain, Italy and Ireland who were in danger too.
So the banks had to accept a haircut from Greece and Europe created the ESFS who took over the worhtless Greek government bonds.
Now we are 7 years later. The other European countries who's finances were shaky in 2008 have restructured and are much more healthy today.
But in Greece nothing has changed. Still so many people in government administration. Still so much corruption and abuse of social security. (allthough the Zakhyntos abuse was stopped ; it had become to blatent)
It is even worse, because in order to keep financing all this Greece has killed it's own economy.
It is unable to ever pay back it's debts.
Giving more money won't help, it's a bottomless pit.
Blaim the banks? Yes, they were vultures.
Some of them were sanctioned, but few.
But the real responsables are politicians.
Rest assured, none of them will ever get sanctioned.

The IMF is a large creditor to Greece. But the main is ESFS mentioned above, which is essentialy the European taxpayer.
Via ESFS and others, Belgium with 11 million inhabitants is estimated to lose 11 billion Euro.
East European taxpayers also have to help pay for the pensions payed to the Greek people while most of them get a pension which is far less than Greek pensions.
How can you justify this?
Spain and Portugal are still having tough times getting their economy healthy again, but slow recovery seems to have started.
How can you explain these countries they should pay for the mess in Greece?

Nobody can save Greece unless Greece starts to save itself.
It looks like some of them need a very hard lesson before they'll do that.
It's called a 'reality check'.
I'm sorry for them, but options are few.
And the road to recovery will be very long.

Kardu
01-07-15, 22:34
With all these some European leaders urging/demanding that Greek government cancel the referendum shows how much in reality democracy and choice of people is valued...

Maleth
01-07-15, 23:04
With all these some European leaders urging/demanding that Greek government cancel the referendum shows how much in reality democracy and choice of people is valued...

Angela Merkel said that Greece has the legitimate right to hold a referendum over its outstanding state debt.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150701/1024081023.html#ixzz3efw4iiqZ

....and anyhow no one is sure what this referendum is going to solve. Either all just realistic solutions are needed a Yes or a No vote will bring no magic solutions

Yetos
01-07-15, 23:11
@ bicicleur

good and correct analysis
I see you are aware of the problem
yet there are some few details more,
Like the demands from WW2 from Germany
which all countries took except Greece,
giving it as a ' mistaken gift' to Adenauer, throught a strange diplomatic word, proposed by our 'Allies' USA in the text signed by King Pavlos
It is estimated 600 000 000 000 E

Garrick
01-07-15, 23:53
@ bicicleur

good and correct analysis
I see you are aware of the problem
yet there are some few details more,
Like the demands from WW2 from Germany
which all countries took except Greece,
giving it as a ' mistaken gift' to Adenauer, throught a strange diplomatic word, proposed by our 'Allies' USA in the text signed by King Pavlos
It is estimated 600 000 000 000 E

Yetos
No matter in which way this crisis will finish, I think that Greece has bright future.

I had many Greek friends, some of them lived in Serbia, and all of them I know as very industrious people. Who thinks that Greeks are lazy he or she watch media and doesn't know reality. Politicians generally in world are more or less same, and they are prone for corruption, but in which country politicians are "flowers".

Why I believe in Greece? Greece has very smart and capable people, it is the most important resource. Greece has very good position in Mediterranean, all sea paths lead to Greece and via Balkans and Middle Europe is extraordinary link toward the heart of industry of Europe, Germany. Greece has a lot of friendly countries in the world which can help to exits from difficulties. Greece can attract large investments about which some others can only dream. Greece has specific soul, which no one country has, which makes it unique and gives strength and Greece have wisdom forged centuries.

bicicleur
02-07-15, 00:23
@ bicicleur

good and correct analysis
I see you are aware of the problem
yet there are some few details more,
Like the demands from WW2 from Germany
which all countries took except Greece,
giving it as a ' mistaken gift' to Adenauer, throught a strange diplomatic word, proposed by our 'Allies' USA in the text signed by King Pavlos
It is estimated 600 000 000 000 E

I don't know the details about that.
But I guess you mean the aid Germany got from Marshall plan?
Germany got aid several years after the end of WW II

And Germany was rebuilt in the first place by the Germans themselves.
Of course they wouldn't have been able to do so if they didn't get help.

If Greece starts to save itself by restructering themselves, I'm certain they'll get the aid they need.
But the main efforts has te be done by Greece itself.
And the longer they wait the worse it will get.

I guess Tsipras himself is smart enough to realize that what he promises to Greece is utopia.
But I don't expect anything else from politicians.
And Greeks who are smart enough to realise this are held hostage by Greeks who prefer to believe fairy tales.

bicicleur
02-07-15, 00:37
With all these some European leaders urging/demanding that Greek government cancel the referendum shows how much in reality democracy and choice of people is valued...

They have the right to do so, but what's the point of such referenda?
They don't have the right to decide whether their creditors should give them more credit.
And by organising this referendum Varaoufakis and Tsipras made clear they have no authority to make a deal with the creditors till after the referendum.
That's why Europe has suspended negotiations till after the referendum.

Tsipras anounced the refendum in Greece while Varoufakis was at the same time negotiating with the European finance ministers. Is this serious? It looks more like playing games to stay in power.

Kardu
02-07-15, 01:12
They have the right to do so, but what's the point of such referenda?
They don't have the right to decide whether their creditors should give them more credit.
And by organising this referendum Varaoufakis and Tsipras made clear they have no authority to make a deal with the creditors till after the referendum.
That's why Europe has suspended negotiations till after the referendum.

Tsipras anounced the refendum in Greece while Varoufakis was at the same time negotiating with the European finance ministers. Is this serious? It looks more like playing games to stay in power.

First of it's the matter of principle. When Western modern liberal-democratic establishment and media buzzes non-stop in everybody ears around the world about how wonderful liberal-democracy is then they should not try to silence people's voice.

I am no advocate of lefties but the Greek government wants the support of the population for the crucial decision, so that they share the responcibility of all the consequences to come.

Merkel maybe has said that, but there are other leaders who call for the cancelation of the referendum.

LeBrok
02-07-15, 07:12
I agree. I think it would be best for them to just default and get it over with. Does anyone know who holds the majority of their debt, by the way? Do the American investment banks still hold a chunk of it? If they do, serves them right if they lose their money since their mortgage backed securities, which they knew were junk, helped create this mess. Payback is a *****.



Interestingly, Puerto Rico seems to be on the same course.
The problem with Greeks going their own way is, whether thy can create an advantage out of it. Advantage due to debt cancellation, the fresh start. If they continue mismanage they economy, if they can revive economy, if they can't find capital to invest in their economy, they will quickly go back into the same debt trap.
I'm not sure if there is enough political will to pull economic miracle out of bankruptcy, however the alternative of staying in Eurozone and paying unbelievable mountain of debt is a better alternative. It is like choosing a lesser evil.

LeBrok
02-07-15, 07:33
The IMF is a large creditor to Greece. But the main is ESFS mentioned above, which is essentialy the European taxpayer.
Via ESFS and others, Belgium with 11 million inhabitants is estimated to lose 11 billion Euro.
East European taxpayers also have to help pay for the pensions payed to the Greek people while most of them get a pension which is far less than Greek pensions.
How can you justify this?
Spain and Portugal are still having tough times getting their economy healthy again, but slow recovery seems to have started.
How can you explain these countries they should pay for the mess in Greece?


The easiest way to deal with Greece debt is to print this 400 billion Euro, or whatever it is right now, and give it to lenders, or just enough to keep the lenders alive. In 15 trillion Eruozone economy it won't cause massive inflation. Maybe extra 1 percent for couple of years. However it will produce a precedence of easy way out for other Eurozone countries in financial trouble. What if Italy and Spain will default on their massive debts? The party might be over for Eurozone.
On other hand, if the defaulting is in a size of one country a decade, it will be quite bearable for finances of Eurozone, and the union to continue. Actually it would be unrealistic to consider that all the countries of Eurozone will have perfect economy and finances all the time. Occasional debt default should be built into the system.

LeBrok
02-07-15, 07:41
Yetos
No matter in which way this crisis will finish, I think that Greece has bright future.

I had many Greek friends, some of them lived in Serbia, and all of them I know as very industrious people. Who thinks that Greeks are lazy he or she watch media and doesn't know reality. Politicians generally in world are more or less same, and they are prone for corruption, but in which country politicians are "flowers". Yes, Greeks are very industrious, but not in Greece. They left Greece and run their businesses in other countries. Greek political and economic reality is not good for business. Business people and capital left Greece, and what is left are government workers. Sure I'm exaggerating, but there is some truth in it.
Now smart young people who can speak english and german are leaving Greece, because of lack of work.


Greece has specific soul, which no one country has, which makes it unique and gives strength and Greece have wisdom forged centuries. I have a feeling that you want Yetos to feel good.

LeBrok
02-07-15, 07:56
Merkel maybe has said that, but there are other leaders who call for the cancelation of the referendum. Can you share few names with us?
I only heard voices saying that referendum is too late and therefore will not be legally binding, therefore inconsequential. To call for cancellation requires involvement in Greek political process. I don't think that any of foreign leaders is in a position or have political interest to call for cancellation. I think your paraphrasing of foreign leaders was too liberal, and nobody literally called for cancellation of Greek referendum.

LeBrok
02-07-15, 07:58
Bankers will not take our carbonhydrogens so cheap!!!!!
neither our sea neither our mountains,
neither our ports, neither our roads
but most of all our souls


I HOPE NOTHING
I FEAR NOTHING
I AM FREE
Ν kazantzakis I think Buddhism goes well with this philosophy.

Maleth
02-07-15, 10:08
Yetos
No matter in which way this crisis will finish, I think that Greece has bright future.

Thats what everyone hopes.


Why I believe in Greece? Greece has very smart and capable people, it is the most important resource. Greece has very good position in Mediterranean, all sea paths lead to Greece and via Balkans and Middle Europe is extraordinary link toward the heart of industry of Europe, Germany. Greece has a lot of friendly countries in the world which can help to exits from difficulties. Greece can attract large investments about which some others can only dream. Greece has specific soul, which no one country has, which makes it unique and gives strength and Greece have wisdom forged centuries.

Just a small question....So what went wrong? what is Greece waiting for with all these awesome attributes? With all these hopes and believes things should NOT have come to this.

Yetos
02-07-15, 12:28
That's why Europe has suspended negotiations till after the referendum.

Tsipras anounced the refendum in Greece while Varoufakis was at the same time negotiating with the European finance ministers. Is this serious? It looks more like playing games to stay in power.

That was a desicion of Angela,
which for 1rst time, after that I started to like/respect her,

Yetos
02-07-15, 12:32
Can you share few names with us?
I only heard voices saying that referendum is too late and therefore will not be legally binding, therefore inconsequential. To call for cancellation requires involvement in Greek political process. I don't think that any of foreign leaders is in a position or have political interest to call for cancellation. I think your paraphrasing of foreign leaders was too liberal, and nobody literally called for cancellation of Greek referendum.

All except Angela,
tuesday was a 4 hours tele-coferance among EUgroup and rest,
personally I expected Tsipras to sign the 25/06/2015 proposals
but ended again no solution,
After that only Angela accepting the choice of Greeks she declared that she will not speak again until referendum ends,
and force the rest not to openly discuss the subject,
told you it is the first time I could click a Like to her

Kardu
02-07-15, 12:32
Can you share few names with us?
I only heard voices saying that referendum is too late and therefore will not be legally binding, therefore inconsequential. To call for cancellation requires involvement in Greek political process. I don't think that any of foreign leaders is in a position or have political interest to call for cancellation. I think your paraphrasing of foreign leaders was too liberal, and nobody literally called for cancellation of Greek referendum.

"However German Chancellor Angela Merkel responded swiftly that Germany won't enter into new aid negotiations with Athens before Greece's weekend referendum, while her deputy urged the left-wing government to cancel the plebiscite."

http://news.yahoo.com/european-stock-markets-rally-greece-makes-proposal-113058749.html

"Spain's Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy on Tuesday became the first European leader to openly back the departure of Greece's far-left government as he urged Greeks to accept bailout proposals in a crucial referendum."

http://www.thelocal.es/20150630/spanish-pm-backs-change-in-greek-government

Yetos
02-07-15, 12:35
I think Buddhism goes well with this philosophy.

no
Buddism is a religion,
every religion inspires some fear,
that is Nikos Kazantzakis,
an untamed soul that was expelled by church when he wrote
''Jesus Christ re-crufified''
if you haven't read him, take a try,
he is fantastic

http://www.mixanitouxronou.gr/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/kazantzakis6.jpg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikos_Kazantzakis


there are 2 στηλαι tompstones stelae I like
one is the above
second is the 'πραττω ΚΑΤΑ ΤΟΝ ΔΑΙΜΟΝΑ ΕΑΥΤΟΥ'
meaning according my consious or my gurdian angelhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#82075049)
Jim Morrison's tomp



http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-o369pqbNj1w/TxH1Z2MA8rI/AAAAAAAADHc/1o4niiFhYto/s1600/JimMorrisonGraveSite4.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikos_Kazantzakis)

Garrick
02-07-15, 13:43
I think Buddhism goes well with this philosophy.

I think Yetos is right. Yes, Buddhism is non-theistic but it is religion. You must believe in achieving of nirvana (Sanskrit) or nibbana (Pali, language of Buddha). Nirvana is highest goal of attainment in Buddhism.

Of course, Buddhism has philosophical aspects. Buddhist experts think that Buddhism has and scientific aspects. They think Buddhism is science because it has scientific way of collecting information from experiences.

Buddhism is religion and philosophy (and perhaps science) but if we reject the religion Buddhism is no longer possible.

Angela
02-07-15, 15:38
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-01/greece-pushes-draghi-s-euro-nearer-reverse-as-solidarity-fades

"There is a tension in Europe between those, like Wyplosz, who see the need for an unambiguous lender of last resort, and those, such as Issing, who prefer a community of the self-reliant adhering to jointly-agreed rules."

"“The idea was to create an irrevocable monetary union that once you’re in, it’s forever,” said Charles Wyplosz, professor of economics at the Graduate Institute of International and Development Studies in Geneva. “The permanence is very much in doubt, especially because you really don’t have a lender of last resort. Under certain circumstances, the central bank can drop you.”

“The illusion was and is that having joined the euro, it is irreversible,” said Otmar Issing, the German who in 1998 became the central bank’s first chief economist. “Mutual trust is certainly not there any more and it will be very difficult to restore it.”

"Issing argues that if Greece exits, other countries will have to pull themselves together to make sure it doesn’t happen again. He represents the school of thought, echoed by German finance minister Wolfgang Schaeuble, that says the greater danger (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-26/schaeuble-says-greater-risk-in-greece-crisis-is-euro-credibility) to the euro is the loss of credibility should the bloc bend its rules too much."

“If the Greeks can get away with the violation of all promises, commitments, then I think it will have a contagion effect on other countries,” Issing said. “Then we’ll be entering into a monetary union very different from what was intended. It will be the end of the zone of fiscal solidity.”



Prize Winning Economist Paul Krugman urges Greece to vote no in the referendum:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/29/krugman-greek-bailout_n_7687960.html

"I would vote no, for two reasons. First, much as the prospect of euro exit frightens everyone — me included — the troika is now effectively demanding that the policy regime of the past five years be continued indefinitely. Where is the hope in that? Maybe, just maybe, the willingness to leave will inspire a rethink, although probably not. But even so, devaluation couldn’t create that much more chaos than already exists, and would pave the way for eventual recovery, just as it has in many other times and places. Greece is not that different.

Second, the political implications of a yes vote would be deeply troubling. The troika clearly did a reverse Corleone — they made Tsipras an offer he can’t accept, and presumably did this knowingly. So the ultimatum was, in effect, a move to replace the Greek government. And even if you don’t like Syriza, that has to be disturbing for anyone who believes in European ideals."

They won't choose that, though...they'll blink, just like the Scots.

oriental
02-07-15, 20:18
I really don't know too much about EU but I remember the Cyprus crisis when Greek Cypriots wanted to join Greece (childhood memory). Then the Turkish Cypriots appealed to Turkey and a civil war ensued and the Canadian Prime Minister came up with the brilliant idea of a force of "peace-keeping troops" with UN members. Prime Minister Lester Pearson was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. Greece bought German tanks and ships (maybe from France as well) and so Greece was indebted to Germany since for they didn't have the money to pay for the weapons. But seeing that Greece has a different economic system it seems so incongruent that it is part of Eurozone with Euro.

Garrick
02-07-15, 23:46
Thats what everyone hopes.

Just a small question....So what went wrong? what is Greece waiting for with all these awesome attributes? With all these hopes and believes things should NOT have come to this.

Maleth. Your question is small but very smart. And answer is longer. Actions depends of context.

We must consider World economic crisis. And some analysts think new World economic crisis will start. In such situations of course decisions are not easy, on the contrary, decision makers must do with very hard issues and problems.

And democracy has own weaknesses. Politician who is within the mandate knows that the time passes and wants to use what he can more. In next election he or she can lose and if didn't exploit within the mandate after that is nothing. Corruption is "general disease" today's politicians. And irresponsibility, laziness, cowardice, scandals and all the goes with it.

What is medicine? In SFR Yugoslavia, which was socialist country, directors who embezzled a lot of money and went abroad, they had to hide, because they were never sure (from secret service). But of course, I'm not communist, and I'm not for such methods, but only give example.

One interesting interview had German Minister Mr. Schauble. He spoke about limits of democracy. He is committed to control. And really, supranational communities and superstates, can enter mechanisms to control countries-members. For spending money, borrowing, corruption, and much more. Such mechanisms can have efects. But advocates of pure democracy wonder who will control the controllers and how non-elected institutions can be above elected institutions. You can see things are very complex, whether society should allow a reduction of democracy to better control or hold "status quo" with all consequences what we see.

LeBrok
03-07-15, 03:33
Maleth. Your question is small but very smart. And answer is longer. Actions depends of context.

We must consider World economic crisis. And some analysts think new World economic crisis will start. In such situations of course decisions are not easy, on the contrary, decision makers must do with very hard issues and problems.

And democracy has own weaknesses. Politician who is within the mandate knows that the time passes and wants to use what he can more. In next election he or she can lose and if didn't exploit within the mandate after that is nothing. Corruption is "general disease" today's politicians. And irresponsibility, laziness, cowardice, scandals and all the goes with it.

What is medicine? In SFR Yugoslavia, which was socialist country, directors who embezzled a lot of money and went abroad, they had to hide, because they were never sure (from secret service). But of course, I'm not communist, and I'm not for such methods, but only give example.

One interesting interview had German Minister Mr. Schauble. He spoke about limits of democracy. He is committed to control. And really, supranational communities and superstates, can enter mechanisms to control countries-members. For spending money, borrowing, corruption, and much more. Such mechanisms can have efects. But advocates of pure democracy wonder who will control the controllers and how non-elected institutions can be above elected institutions. You can see things are very complex, whether society should allow a reduction of democracy to better control or hold "status quo" with all consequences what we see.
We have to keep in perspective that financial crises are chronic in Greece. They went bankrupt 3-4 times in last 100 years. It might be some sort of record.

Many European countries are culturally attuned to bankruptcy. Indeed, Greece has spent approximately half of the 182 years since it achieved independence from the Ottoman Empire in a state of default and therefore denied access to international capital markets – a position it is likely to resume in the very near future.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100081316/some-european-countries-are-in-the-habit-of-going-bankrupt/

LeBrok
03-07-15, 03:34
Financial Defaults in Europe.

Europe

Albania (1990)
Austria-Hungary (1796, 1802, 1805, 1811, 1816, 1868)
Austria (1938, 1940, 1945[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#cite_note-forgotten-debt-20))
Bulgaria (1932,[citation needed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] 1990)
Croatia (1993–1996)[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#cite_note-forgotten-debt-20)
Denmark (1813)[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#cite_note-forgotten-debt-20) (see Danish state bankruptcy of 1813 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_state_bankruptcy_of_1813))
France (1812)
Germany (1932, 1939, 1948[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#cite_note-forgotten-debt-20))

Hesse (1814)
Prussia (1807, 1813)
Schleswig-Holstein (1850)
Westphalia (1812)


Greece (external debt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt): 1826–1842, 1843–1859, 1860–1878, 1894–1897, 1932–1964, 2010–present;[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#cite_note-GreeceCrisesDatesEpisodesCR-23)[23] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#cite_note-24)[24] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#cite_note-economistgreece-25) domestic debt: 1932–1951[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#cite_note-GreeceCrisesDatesEpisodesCR-23))
Hungary (1932, 1941)
The Netherlands (1814)
Poland (1936, 1940, 1981)
Portugal (1828, 1837, 1841, 1845, 1852, 1890)
Romania (1933)
Russia (1839, 1885, 1918, 1947,[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#cite_note-forgotten-debt-20) 1957,[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#cite_note-forgotten-debt-20) 1991, 1998 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Russian_financial_crisis))
Spain (1809, 1820, 1831, 1834, 1851, 1867, 1872, 1882, 1936–1939[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#cite_note-forgotten-debt-20))
Sweden (1812)
Turkey (1876, 1915, 1931, 1940, 1978, 1982)
Ukraine (1998–2000)[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#cite_note-forgotten-debt-20)
United Kingdom (1822, 1834, 1888–89, 1932)[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#cite_note-forgotten-debt-20)
Yugoslavia (1983)[n 2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#cite_note-26)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default

Yetos
03-07-15, 05:00
Financial Defaults in Europe.

Europe

Albania (1990)
Austria-Hungary (1796, 1802, 1805, 1811, 1816, 1868)
Austria (1938, 1940, 1945[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#cite_note-forgotten-debt-20))
Bulgaria (1932,[citation needed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] 1990)
Croatia (1993–1996)[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#cite_note-forgotten-debt-20)
Denmark (1813)[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#cite_note-forgotten-debt-20) (see Danish state bankruptcy of 1813 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_state_bankruptcy_of_1813))
France (1812)
Germany (1932, 1939, 1948[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#cite_note-forgotten-debt-20))

Hesse (1814)
Prussia (1807, 1813)
Schleswig-Holstein (1850)
Westphalia (1812)


Greece (external debt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt): 1826–1842, 1843–1859, 1860–1878, 1894–1897, 1932–1964, 2010–present;[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#cite_note-GreeceCrisesDatesEpisodesCR-23)[23] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#cite_note-24)[24] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#cite_note-economistgreece-25) domestic debt: 1932–1951[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#cite_note-GreeceCrisesDatesEpisodesCR-23))
Hungary (1932, 1941)
The Netherlands (1814)
Poland (1936, 1940, 1981)
Portugal (1828, 1837, 1841, 1845, 1852, 1890)
Romania (1933)
Russia (1839, 1885, 1918, 1947,[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#cite_note-forgotten-debt-20) 1957,[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#cite_note-forgotten-debt-20) 1991, 1998 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Russian_financial_crisis))
Spain (1809, 1820, 1831, 1834, 1851, 1867, 1872, 1882, 1936–1939[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#cite_note-forgotten-debt-20))
Sweden (1812)
Turkey (1876, 1915, 1931, 1940, 1978, 1982)
Ukraine (1998–2000)[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#cite_note-forgotten-debt-20)
United Kingdom (1822, 1834, 1888–89, 1932)[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#cite_note-forgotten-debt-20)
Yugoslavia (1983)[n 2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#cite_note-26)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default

Lebrok,

heh?
something wrong with the numbers,
the last bankrupt was in 1920'
it is the 4rth after 1821,
in fact at 1950's was so strong that Drachma was equal to Dollar
so I can not understand what wiki is saying,

it is the revolt loan (after 1821 till 1843)
the 1860's 70's war loan (Thessaly)
the Makedonian struglle war till minor Asian destruction around 1920's
and the today one,
the 1935-6 was a guided one until we decide with Allies or Axis (dictator Metaxas)
always at war times Greece is bankrupt, either due to a new loan, either by shelf determined,
the thing is that today we do not have a war,
modern one is from corruption
or we have a war and we do not see it?
the longest peace in Greece was 1974 till today and last 40 years

Maciamo
03-07-15, 11:08
What baffles me about the Greek debt crisis is the huge amount (360 billions euros (http://demonocracy.info/infographics/eu/debt_greek/debt_greek.html)) that the Greeks borrowed compared to the country's population (11 million). That's 32,700€ per Greek citizen, children included. In other words, an average family of 4 people borrowed 130,000€. And now they are saying that they don't want to pay that back ? Worse, I hear today that they want €60 billions more ! Are they taking other Europeans for dupes or what ? Each European citizen (from the Eurozone) gave about 1000€ in taxes for the Greeks. If we excluded children, students, retired, disabled and unemployed people, each European tax payer gave something close to 2000€, which they may never get back (in other words their government will need to tax them more to balance their budgets).

Few people know that Greece already has one of the highest home ownership rate in Europe (over 75%), probably because the population hasn't increased a lot in the last few generations and the inheritance tax (http://www.helleniccomserve.com/inheritancetax.html) (10% up to 160.000 €) and property tax (http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/Greece/Taxes-and-Costs) (0% up to 200.000€ and max. 2% for properties over 5 million €) are both very low by European standards. Some if 75% of Greeks already own their home and have virtually no tax on it, imagine what they could buy with an extra 130.000€ per household (prices in Greece at about twice lower than in the UK or US, so 130.000€ would be like $290.000 or £185.000).

Of course the money was borrowed by the Greek government, not directly by the citizens. But it doesn't matter, because ultimately the money is used to pay for pensions, education, healthcare, etc. and allows Greek citizens to lead an easy life with very little property or inheritance taxes, and a considerably lower income tax than in many other EU countries (e.g. Greek income tax ranges from 22 to 42% against 30 to 50% in Belgium, so 8% lower).

And after they have the balls to say they don't want to pay back their debts and ask for more ! Just unbelievable. I don't see how Greece could stay in the EU if they don't pay back most or all of their recent debts. That's just abusing other EU citizens. There will be too much long lasting resentment for them to stay.

Maciamo
03-07-15, 11:31
With all these some European leaders urging/demanding that Greek government cancel the referendum shows how much in reality democracy and choice of people is valued...

It doesn't matter whether Greek people think they should pay back their debt or not. They have to. They are bound by the law (contract) and by honour. If they don't care for either, then they certainly shouldn't be in the EU, nor should anyone do business with them anymore. That applies for any country, company or individual, not just for Greece now.

Maciamo
03-07-15, 11:36
I agree. I think it would be best for them to just default and get it over with. Does anyone know who holds the majority of their debt, by the way? Do the American investment banks still hold a chunk of it? If they do, serves them right if they lose their money since their mortgage backed securities, which they knew were junk, helped create this mess. Payback is a *****.


Scroll down to the bottom of this page (http://demonocracy.info/infographics/eu/debt_greek/debt_greek.html) to see who owns the Greek debt. Foreign banks only own 2.4 out of 360 billions. It's mostly other Eurozone countries that lent the money: 55 billion from Germany, 42 billion from France, 37 billion from Italy, 25 billion from Spain, etc. It's roughly always the same percentage to the country's GDP. The IMF lent an extra 32 billion but with money from EU countries.

I wonder how South Italian, Portuguese, Romanian or Bulgarian people, who are all poorer than the Greeks, feel about giving about 2000€ per tax payer to the Greeks in exchange for nothing. That doesn't seem fair at all.

As Lebrok said, if the debt is wiped by reprinting more money, other weak (or opportunistic) economies will follow and the Eurozone will collapse. That's why this Greek debt crisis is such a big issue. 360 billion is merely a drop (0.4%) in the world economy (77 trillions), but a Greek default has to potential to cause another worldwide market crash because of the long-term consequences it would have on the EU unity and the risk of default of bigger countries like Italy and Spain. The Greeks are really playing with fire and I have a feeling that they are completely oblivious (or naive) about it. They are willing to jeopardise the health and future of Europe for their own selfish short-term profit. That's why I think that the only way to deal with a Greek default is to kick them out of the EU (without wiping off the debt) to give a clear message to other countries that would contemplate a default of their own.

Sile
03-07-15, 11:53
11 million can never never repay any debt . do the sums, minus children and elderly , then what size is the workforce then?
The last industry they had was Onassis and his ship industry.

Far better to leave the EU, charge cheap foreign company tax to entice industry and get the Greeks to work in these industries. Something along the lines of what Macedonia has recently done.

staying in the EU enslaves the Greeks to remain a poor populace forever due to the fact the labour force will be required/forced to drop wages to entice foreign industry .........same finale as above, .........but without a chance to ever recover under the EU and remain the poor of the EU

A centralised government is another problem .............a problem that will also bite Italy very hard shortly...........centralised governments always fail , de-centralised Governments have far more success, ...Australia, USA, Germany etc

Kardu
03-07-15, 14:27
It doesn't matter whether Greek people think they should pay back their debt or not. They have to. They are bound by the law (contract) and by honour. If they don't care for either, then they certainly shouldn't be in the EU, nor should anyone do business with them anymore. That applies for any country, company or individual, not just for Greece now.

That's a different question.

The point is that other European leaders try to interfere in a democratic process of another country.

"While Merkel disputes that she seeks to interfere in other countries, her influence isn’t universally welcomed at home.Gregor Gysi, parliamentary leader of Germany’s anti-capitalist Left party, on Wednesday alleged that Merkel is trying to foment regime change in Athens.
“You want to get rid of the leftist government in Greece, that’s your goal,” Gysi said in a parliamentary debate. He cited Merkel’s refusal to engage in aid negotiations before the referendum. “That’s the proof. It’s because you hope that the government will fall on Sunday,” he said."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-02/tsipras-learning-europe-s-number-1-rule-don-t-mess-with-merkel

bicicleur
03-07-15, 16:13
That's a different question.

The point is that other European leaders try to interfere in a democratic process of another country.

"While Merkel disputes that she seeks to interfere in other countries, her influence isn’t universally welcomed at home.Gregor Gysi, parliamentary leader of Germany’s anti-capitalist Left party, on Wednesday alleged that Merkel is trying to foment regime change in Athens.
“You want to get rid of the leftist government in Greece, that’s your goal,” Gysi said in a parliamentary debate. He cited Merkel’s refusal to engage in aid negotiations before the referendum. “That’s the proof. It’s because you hope that the government will fall on Sunday,” he said."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-02/tsipras-learning-europe-s-number-1-rule-don-t-mess-with-merkel

oh shut up please

Gysi is just a clown trying to turn the whole story into a complot theory
the sad thing is, there are so many such clowns in modern politics and even among academics

there are some economic laws you cannot ignore
one of them is that when you borrow money, one day you'll have to pay it back
and in order to do so, you have to invest your money wisely

and what a stupid refenrendum is this anyway?
is it clear what Greeks are voting for?

Kardu
03-07-15, 16:29
oh shut up please

Gysi is just a clown trying to turn the whole story into a complot theory
the sad thing is, there are so many such clowns in modern politics and even among academics

there are some economic laws you cannot ignore
one of them is that when you borrow money, one day you'll have to pay it back
and in order to do so, you have to invest your money wisely

and what a stupid refenrendum is this anyway?
is it clear what Greeks are voting for?

You wanna get personal little ...?!

It's just to point out the hypocricy of the liberal-democratic system, and of course those who support it gonna try to brush it away

oriental
03-07-15, 21:03
University of Warwick has shown that high home prices have a direct relationship with unemployment. After the homes or buildings are completed there are no high-paying jobs except maybe hospital docters, university professors, TV, bankers and real estate agents. The land prices go up as high-rise developers can afford the high prices as they complete and manipulate land development. They buy up vacant land and keep it undeveloped and fund politicians who support them. When the demand for housing goes up they build with higher prices driving out factory jobs and other well-paying jobs with low paying jobs in the community like grocery stores, cinemas, boutiques and restaurants.

http://www.andrewoswald.com/docs/1013bp_homeownership.pdf

http://www.cityam.com/215859/uk-house-prices-what-effect-does-unemployment-have-cost-home

http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/house-prices-strong-in-areas-of-falling-unemployment-9295028.html
http://www.cityam.com/215859/uk-house-prices-what-effect-does-unemployment-have-cost-home


http://www.andrewoswald.com/docs/1013bp_homeownership.pdf

Yetos
03-07-15, 21:48
it is not the amount that Greeks took so high

the loans that Greece took is estimated 30 billion by Greeks
40 Billion according rest
60 billion according bankers
it is the game of rate and the birth
for example the Goldman sachs loan that the bastard Semites prime minister took was 6 billion 1rst pay after 2006 but rate reaching 13% after 2010
a total of 36 billion from 6 billion capital till 2030 if I remember correct
Greece as all south European countries borrowed with annual rate of 6-7% while Deutschland with 1,5%
the main difference among Greece and Deutschland is that Germany took loans with 1,5% rate, and sell to Greece via EU with 4,5%
WHAT ANGELA WANTS IS THE DIEFFERENCE AMONG 1,5% to 4,5%

I can give you sources, as many as you like

GREEKS ARE NOT DENYING THEIR DEPTH
GREEKS ARE DENYING THE BIRTH OF THE LOANS DUE TO DIFFERENT RATES
the loans reach 6-8 times the quantity of capital money,



you can read the follow to understand

http://www.politico.eu/article/europes-counting-problem/


(http://www.politico.eu/article/europes-counting-problem/)

LeBrok
04-07-15, 06:12
As Lebrok said, if the debt is wiped by reprinting more money, other weak (or opportunistic) economies will follow and the Eurozone will collapse. That's why this Greek debt crisis is such a big issue. 360 billion is merely a drop (0.4%) in the world economy (77 trillions), but a Greek default has to potential to cause another worldwide market crash because of the long-term consequences it would have on the EU unity and the risk of default of bigger countries like Italy and Spain. The Greeks are really playing with fire and I have a feeling that they are completely oblivious (or naive) about it. They are willing to jeopardise the health and future of Europe for their own selfish short-term profit. That's why I think that the only way to deal with a Greek default is to kick them out of the EU (without wiping off the debt) to give a clear message to other countries that would contemplate a default of their own.
If Greeks are kicked out off Eurozone, they won't repay their debt at all. Whether EU financiers like it or not. If EU and IMF were the only financial sector in the world, Greeks not paying the debt wouldn't be able to get any more money, neither loans nor investments. This would be a very harsh reality for the default indeed. However, in today's world, they will still have access to fresh money from other financial centers, the Russians and Chinese, just to mention couple, and the investment capital brought by companies doing business in Greece.
It is actually not a bad thing to get a second chance. What would happen if Greeks were stuck with this huge debt for decades? Decades of economic stagnation would hunt them, with their lives miserable, and huge unemployment. It wouldn't be good for Greeks, and neither for Europe.
I'm not too crazy about punishing Greeks harshly for their financial mess. They are in big trouble already, very stressed out, and their pride is scared forever, well almost.
Fresh start, a sort of reboot, might be in place. Though one uneasy thought rumbles around my head. Will they do any better with this fresh chance? Did they learn what not to do, what to avoid? Will they be in the same place in 20 years, blaming the rest of the world for their screwups?

Yetos
04-07-15, 06:58
yo guys

ΦΟΒΟΥ ΔΑΝΑΟΥΣ ΚΑΙ ΔΩΡΑ ΦΕΡΟΝΤΑΣ
Fear the Greeks even when they carry gifts

it is more complicated

the chain reaction will be tremendous in East Europe and Balkans,
Even in Georgia they feel the earthquake


Besides the COST OF FREEDOM IS EXPENCIVE

ΑΚΡΙΒΟΝ ΕΛΕΥΘΕΡΙΑΣ ΤΙΜΗΜΑ

Maciamo
04-07-15, 09:00
If Greeks are kicked out off Eurozone, they won't repay their debt at all. Whether EU financiers like it or not. If EU and IMF were the only financial sector in the world, Greeks not paying the debt wouldn't be able to get any more money, neither loans nor investments. This would be a very harsh reality for the default indeed. However, in today's world, they will still have access to fresh money from other financial centers, the Russians and Chinese, just to mention couple, and the investment capital brought by companies doing business in Greece.
It is actually not a bad thing to get a second chance. What would happen if Greeks were stuck with this huge debt for decades? Decades of economic stagnation would hunt them, with their lives miserable, and huge unemployment. It wouldn't be good for Greeks, and neither for Europe.
I'm not too crazy about punishing Greeks harshly for their financial mess. They are in big trouble already, very stressed out, and their pride is scared forever, well almost.
Fresh start, a sort of reboot, might be in place. Though one uneasy thought rumbles around my head. Will they do any better with this fresh chance? Did they learn what not to do, what to avoid? Will they be in the same place in 20 years, blaming the rest of the world for their screwups?

I disagree. I have some experience in dealing with people who borrow a lot and can't repay their debts and know their type. They are usually people who profit from the system, knowing from the start, before they get a loan, that they will never repay their debts. They typically ask for more loans to repay the previous loans, then don't repay them either. I am certainly not saying that all Greeks or most Greeks are like that, but the few decision makers in the Greek government may well be. Unfortunately, as they are the ones in charge, nothing can be done.

Yesterday Tsipras asked (http://rt.com/business/271528-tsipras-greece-debt-cut/) for a 20 year grace period. That's a full generation. I would expect no less from someone who wasn't willing to repay any of his debts. Who knows what the world will be like in 20 years. Actually we have a good idea (http://www.vitamodularis.org/articles/your_life_is_going_to_change_faster_than_ever_befo re.shtml). Robots will be running most of the economy. People with enjoy universal income and won't have to work anymore. There will be vertical farms, free energy (extremely cheap solar), free satellite Internet, nearly free 3-D printed goods of any kind, programmable matter (http://singularityhub.com/2009/07/23/claytronics-or-gershenfeld-why-youll-be-able-to-make-almost-anything/), commonplace gene therapy and genetic engineering, conscious AI, and so on. I won't be a world that we can recognise today. There won't be any capitalist economy anymore. Ray Kurzweil prediced that the singularity would take place around 2045, which is only in 30 years, and if we don't plan this extremely well, humanity may well come to an end (http://uk.businessinsider.com/bill-gates-artificial-intelligence-2015-1?r=US), as Larry Page, Bill Gates, Elon Musk, Stephen Hawking and many other top scientists and technology leaders fear.

So this 20 year grace period is just a last chance to enjoy themselves before the end of society as we know it. Intelligent people know that, and I would be extremely surprised if other EU leaders didn't see through that plan to never repay their debts.

bicicleur
04-07-15, 09:48
If Greeks are kicked out off Eurozone, they won't repay their debt at all. Whether EU financiers like it or not. If EU and IMF were the only financial sector in the world, Greeks not paying the debt wouldn't be able to get any more money, neither loans nor investments. This would be a very harsh reality for the default indeed. However, in today's world, they will still have access to fresh money from other financial centers, the Russians and Chinese, just to mention couple, and the investment capital brought by companies doing business in Greece.
It is actually not a bad thing to get a second chance. What would happen if Greeks were stuck with this huge debt for decades? Decades of economic stagnation would hunt them, with their lives miserable, and huge unemployment. It wouldn't be good for Greeks, and neither for Europe.
I'm not too crazy about punishing Greeks harshly for their financial mess. They are in big trouble already, very stressed out, and their pride is scared forever, well almost.
Fresh start, a sort of reboot, might be in place. Though one uneasy thought rumbles around my head. Will they do any better with this fresh chance? Did they learn what not to do, what to avoid? Will they be in the same place in 20 years, blaming the rest of the world for their screwups?

The debt will never be paid back, Europe ESFS, IMF and few others lost all that money
Greece won't find any other financer before they restructure themselves.
Putin has made an agreement for a pipeline to Greece but he said he wouldn't give any loans nor an advance payment for the pipeline. He would be stupid to do so.
Maybe they'll pay to rent some military base in Greece if Greece leaves EU, but that won't cover the expenses Greece is making every year.

So I expect outstanding loans to Greece are lost.
Nobody will give money to Greece untill Greece is more or less in financial equilibrium again, which means Greece will have to restructure.
As Greece has also destroyed its own economy buy spending all that money unproductively, harsh times are awaiting.

bicicleur
04-07-15, 12:48
First of it's the matter of principle. When Western modern liberal-democratic establishment and media buzzes non-stop in everybody ears around the world about how wonderful liberal-democracy is then they should not try to silence people's voice.

I am no advocate of lefties but the Greek government wants the support of the population for the crucial decision, so that they share the responcibility of all the consequences to come.

Merkel maybe has said that, but there are other leaders who call for the cancelation of the referendum.

The refendum is held within a weeks notice and without a proper formulation of the question neither proper information

A refenrendum is supposed to be held with at least 2 weeks notice so that the voters can inform themselves.
The organisers are supposed to inform the voters properly.
Instead they are telling lies.
They told the Greeks secret negotatiations with EU were going on and solution was imminent.
None of it is true.
Because of only 1 week notice, no undependent observation of the organistation of the referendum nor of the counting of the votes can be organised which leaves the door wide open for fraud.

The sole purpose of this referendum is to give Tsipras legitimacy which he's losing rapidly now.

Do you call this democracy? It's a farce.

Furthermore some politicians and academics try to victimise Tsipras in order to defend his leftist anarchistic doctrine.
It is this doctrine which in the past was responsible for so many more victims than nazism or fascism ever made.

And yes, it's getting personal. I guess you're becoming a victim of this victimisation too.

Kardu
04-07-15, 13:27
The refendum is held within a weeks notice and without a proper formulation of the question neither proper information

A refenrendum is supposed to be held with at least 2 weeks notice so that the voters can inform themselves.
The organisers are supposed to inform the voters properly.
Instead they are telling lies.
They told the Greeks secret negotatiations with EU were going on and solution was imminent.
None of it is true.
Because of only 1 week notice, no undependent observation of the organistation of the referendum nor of the counting of the votes can be organised which leaves the door wide open for fraud.

The sole purpose of this referendum is to give Tsipras legitimacy which he's losing rapidly now.

Do you call this democracy? It's a farce.

Furthermore some politicians and academics try to victimise Tsipras in order to defend his leftist anarchistic doctrine.
It is this doctrine which in the past was responsible for so many more victims than nazism or fascism ever made.

And yes, it's getting personal. I guess you're becoming a victim of this victimisation too.

Victim, whiner and coward are characteristics of liberals, so you better look in the mirror.

I personally welcome this crisis because it's gonna end the stagnation and usher a period of new opportunities in Europe

bicicleur
04-07-15, 13:31
yes it's becoming very personal

dream on

Kardu
04-07-15, 13:33
Varufakis: 'What they (the creditors) are doing with Greece is a terrorism'

http://www.elmundo.es/economia/2015/07/04/5596f1b3ca47412d048b459e.html

Kardu
04-07-15, 13:37
yes it's becoming very personal

dream on

Lol, talks one of the dreamers whose house of cards is about to collapse

Kardu
04-07-15, 16:43
Short resume of what's going on in Greece and why. Although the author somehow forgets to mention that French and German banks started to lend to Greece in order make easy money for themselves. Just like American banks gave mortgage credit to minorities which led to 2008 collapse.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/07/03/18-key-facts-about-greece-that-will-leave-you-totally-up-to-date-about-a-huge-crisis

ElHorsto
04-07-15, 16:58
The "help" for Greece was bound to conditions, or not? So which were these conditions and did Greece fulfill them? I guess they fulfilled them else Troika would have stopped money, not? Also the majority of new debt was received and "investested" by the preceding governments.
Whether greeks are lazy or not, or unable or whatever, it is not relevant. There was > 5 years to monitor what Greece is doing with the "help" and to apply meaningful conditions. Yet Greece became the most armed country in europe during that time with more debt than before. Why is that? Could it be that EUlites once more deliberately closed their eyes like they did when Greece entered EURO?
I can understand that Tsipras and Varoufakis want to end this nonsense "help". Meanwhile they try to squeeze out to the maximum, which is not surprising as they've been elected for a change. I don't know what T and V plan, but it is possible that they are currently executing their plan for an expensive Grexit. The referendum is understandable because any decision will have harsh consequences. But the referendum is also dangerous because it can break-up Greece like Ukraine.
Not paying debt is no problem, it happened several times, look at Iceland.

ElHorsto
04-07-15, 17:09
Short resume of what's going on in Greece and why. Although the author somehow forgets to mention that French and German banks started to lend to Greece in order make easy money for themselves. Just like American banks gave mortgage credit to minorities which led to 2008 collapse.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/07/03/18-key-facts-about-greece-that-will-leave-you-totally-up-to-date-about-a-huge-crisis

Exactly, it is a business model. Greece is a drainage for tax money.

LeBrok
04-07-15, 19:06
I personally welcome this crisis because it's gonna end the stagnation and usher a period of new opportunities in Europe
Let the spirituality lead the economy. Did you ever apply for a prophet job?

Kardu
04-07-15, 19:25
Let the spirituality lead the economy. Did you ever apply for a prophet job?

Wut?! :D Twisted messianism and "fixing the world" is your and your ideological comrades' calling and job, so you too can look in the mirror ;)

Yetos
04-07-15, 19:58
Not by me

The difference? According to Germany, using the Maastricht Standard, Greece owes about $350 billion. But if the Greek net debt were to be calculated using International Public Sector Accounting Standards (IPSAS), it could be as low as $36 billion — a small fraction of the political number. In other words, there is a strong case to be made that Greece owes Germany far, far less than Germany and the EU creditors are claiming.

But May and Benson’s world faded in the 70s and 80s with decline of ethical standards in the accounting industry. Most importantly now, the Big Four accounting firms have stepped back from their role of leadership in maintaining these international standards; rather than entering the fray of politics, major accountants are standing on the sidelines. The reason is similar to the problem that was highlighted by the Enron scandal: They work not to insist that independent standards be kept, but rather as hired hands who execute contracted technical missions.

If leading accountants were to step in as the mediators May envisioned, the Greek debt talks would have more credible metrics with which to frame Europe’s existential debate. But for this, accounting companies and the nations they work with are going to need to rethink the role of accountants. Are they going to return to their role as financial leaders, or will they remain secondary, but well-remunerated, hired hands?



my personal

BANKSTERS KNEW THAT THE TOTAL IS NOT VITAL, BUT KEPT LOAN AND LOAN WITH HIGH RATES,
WE HAD LEARNED WITH SUCH, AND WE WERE WILLING FOR MORE,
BUT THE CAPITAL IS ALREADY PAID 3 TIMES, SO EITHER THEY DELETE THE EXTRAS FROM RATES AND BIRTHS,
EITHER BUY BUY.

the sytem that created in Venice and later gave Rothschild must take an end.
merchants of nation are not welcome anymore
either ethnical states economies,
either full capitalism and corporations and no borders
we must choose,
and maybe we start this for you, cause soon you will face it
we must not treat our shelves like that,
corporations and bankers must not use goverments and states to get richer,
let them make their own mechanisms of money gather,
do not let them use state mechanisms build by your taxes.

oriental
04-07-15, 20:17
In Canada the government doesn't follow accounting rules either. Funds that were created for specific purposes were lumped into general revenue by the government of the day thus funds were just cash cows i.e. hidden taxes. What to do? This is how the honesty disappears.

Cyprus cannot be isolated from Greek politics so here is the Cyprus Civil War

http://www.whatson-northcyprus.com/history/independence.htm

https://www.onwar.com/aced/chrono/c1900s/yr60/fcyprus1963.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus_dispute

Kardu
04-07-15, 21:10
To attention of other Admins: is LeBrok free to give infractions for the posts he doesn't like?

LeBrok
05-07-15, 02:02
To attention of other Admins: is LeBrok free to give infractions for the posts he doesn't like?
I agree. I don't like rude and abusive posts and people.

LeBrok
05-07-15, 02:45
I disagree. I have some experience in dealing with people who borrow a lot and can't repay their debts and know their type. They are usually people who profit from the system, knowing from the start, before they get a loan, that they will never repay their debts. They typically ask for more loans to repay the previous loans, then don't repay them either. I am certainly not saying that all Greeks or most Greeks are like that, but the few decision makers in the Greek government may well be. Unfortunately, as they are the ones in charge, nothing can be done. Personally, I'm fiscally conservative, and I always honor my obligations, regardless if written or verbal. Deal is a deal. Having said that, I can see some circumstances where more lenient approach to borrowing and investing might be in place.

- Debt forgiving creates a second chance for personal betterment and future taxable citizen.
- Debt forgiving, reduction, allows a country to grow economically, to have money for grants for investments and R&D, free post secondary education, kindergartens, etc.
- In investing/creating environment, debt forgiving let's creative individuals to try new idea again and again. Otherwise if one fails one gets stigma of failure and his carrier, as inventor is over. We know that even the best geniuses fail sometimes. I'm starting to subscribe to the idea that "It is ok to fail".

In Greece case, however, I'm not sure that if we forgive their debt, they will not try something new instead, and we'll be back to square one again in 20 years.









Yesterday Tsipras asked (http://rt.com/business/271528-tsipras-greece-debt-cut/) for a 20 year grace period. That's a full generation. I would expect no less from someone who wasn't willing to repay any of his debts. Who knows what the world will be like in 20 years. Actually we have a good idea (http://www.vitamodularis.org/articles/your_life_is_going_to_change_faster_than_ever_befo re.shtml). Robots will be running most of the economy. People with enjoy universal income and won't have to work anymore. There will be vertical farms, free energy (extremely cheap solar), free satellite Internet, nearly free 3-D printed goods of any kind, programmable matter (http://singularityhub.com/2009/07/23/claytronics-or-gershenfeld-why-youll-be-able-to-make-almost-anything/), commonplace gene therapy and genetic engineering, conscious AI, and so on. I won't be a world that we can recognise today. There won't be any capitalist economy anymore. Ray Kurzweil prediced that the singularity would take place around 2045, which is only in 30 years, and if we don't plan this extremely well, humanity may well come to an end (http://uk.businessinsider.com/bill-gates-artificial-intelligence-2015-1?r=US), as Larry Page, Bill Gates, Elon Musk, Stephen Hawking and many other top scientists and technology leaders fear.

So this 20 year grace period is just a last chance to enjoy themselves before the end of society as we know it. Intelligent people know that, and I would be extremely surprised if other EU leaders didn't see through that plan to never repay their debts.

The paradigm shift is coming soon. Probably sooner than we expect. The most difficult thing will be the lose of taxpayers, as most people won't work anymore. The money flow as we know it will be screwed up. Perhaps a back door communism?

Yetos
05-07-15, 07:04
The paradigm shift is coming soon. Probably sooner than we expect. The most difficult thing will be the lose of taxpayers, as most people won't work anymore. The money flow as we know it will be screwed up. Perhaps a back door communism?

I doupt about a back door communism,
yet the problem in Greece is that more than 43% surely (govermental and public issue workers) fed by state, is like communism
I must agree that only communistic countries had such numbers.

on the other hand the right to keep loans at low multiple amounts and reduce the rates,
even to stop the stupidity of loan to a country, and then use the ethnic /state mechanism to collect multiple times the amount is something that must stop
Rothschild system of harrasing ethnic wealth, by getting 10-20 times the loan must stop,

FREE WORLD STOP WHEN VENICIAN SYSTEM IS IN ACT,
cause by that system you ask a 'piece of body flesh' by people who just never took something from you, just because they belong somewhere,

YOU ARE NOT FREE, WHEN YOU OWN TO SOMEONE,

SO VENICIAN SYSTEM AND ITS LATER EXPAND BY ROTHSCHILD IS KILLING FREE WORLD,

Djordjo
05-07-15, 08:53
Greece was one of the key NATO countries and capitalst block intentionally pumped it with money in order to prevent socialist revolution and to show neighbouring countries that capitalism is great. Western banks continued this in even larger extent after desintegration of socialist block for about two decades, but today, western countries want to cut this because debt has gone too far

bicicleur
05-07-15, 11:02
I doupt about a back door communism,
yet the problem in Greece is that more than 43% surely (govermental and public issue workers) fed by state, is like communism
I must agree that only communistic countries had such numbers.

on the other hand the right to keep loans at low multiple amounts and reduce the rates,
even to stop the stupidity of loan to a country, and then use the ethnic /state mechanism to collect multiple times the amount is something that must stop
Rothschild system of harrasing ethnic wealth, by getting 10-20 times the loan must stop,

FREE WORLD STOP WHEN VENICIAN SYSTEM IS IN ACT,
cause by that system you ask a 'piece of body flesh' by people who just never took something from you, just because they belong somewhere,

YOU ARE NOT FREE, WHEN YOU OWN TO SOMEONE,

SO VENICIAN SYSTEM AND ITS LATER EXPAND BY ROTHSCHILD IS KILLING FREE WORLD,

that's correct
politicians spend all the money they can get into all kinds of popular projects
they hope it will get them re-elected
and they leave the next generation with lots of debts to pay back

Kardu
05-07-15, 17:54
I agree. I don't like rude and abusive posts and people.

You are really sad aren't you? Apart from being unjust, childish and totalitarian.

LeBrok
05-07-15, 20:05
Sounds like No won at 60%.

Now what? Change all Euros to Drachmas in Greek banks computers and open the banks? Should it be so easy?

I guess before this happens, Greek government will try to get a super sweet deal from Eurozone first.

LeBrok
05-07-15, 20:11
Greece was one of the key NATO countries and capitalst block intentionally pumped it with money in order to prevent socialist revolution and to show neighbouring countries that capitalism is great. Western banks continued this in even larger extent after desintegration of socialist block for about two decades, but today, western countries want to cut this because debt has gone too far
You are reading too much into it. It is not about NATO, or Eurozone, or capitalism. Greeks borrowed too much money, and now they can't pay it back, that's all.

Yetos
05-07-15, 20:16
You are reading too much into it. It is not about NATO, or Eurozone, or capitalismhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#35500762). Greeks borrowed too much moneyhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#23212078), and now they can't pay it back, that's all.

No my Friend,

BANKSTERS GAVE TOO MUCH MONEYhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#56865821) TO GREECE, CHARMED BY HIGH RATES,
Greed apetite for more!!

it is time banksters to take a lesson, and not create Ethnic destructions any more.

and do not dare to accuse me for communism any more,
THERE IS NO FREEDOM IN COMMUNISM
THERE IS NO FREEDOM IN BANKING CAPITALISM


PS
we might turn to bitcoins, :grin: who knows!!! :laughing:

http://media5.picsearch.com/is?zQID9clShVEoNBK3D6r-Bk_JfWPAmTCxRB6Rl6z1MYE&height=205

Sile
05-07-15, 20:20
To be in the EU , you need to work as hard as the hardest workers, if you cannot keep up , then you are left behind.
The Greeks could not do that, they joined thinking the EU was a holiday, they lived beyond theirs means.

Italy too, falsified their books to get into the EU........we will see in the next decade what happens to them. But to charge 53% company tax, when your neighbours, Slovenia, Austria ( EU members) charge 33% means Italian companies have gone abroad. Albania, not in the EU has gained by Italian companies setting up industries there.

Don't worry Greeks, Italian business will be knocking at your door once the dust settles.

LeBrok
05-07-15, 20:22
No my Friend,

BANKERS GAVE TOO MUCH MONEY TO GREECE, CHARMED BY HIGH RATES,
Greed apetite for more!!

Greek promised to pay it back, right?

Yetos
05-07-15, 20:39
Greek promised to pay it back, right?

they knew that would not take them back didn't they?
but their greed now wants land and oil and ports and trains and highway,

their greed was so much, that blind them, asking 10 times more the amount of capitalhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#56017779),
while they knew that Greek economy was trebling and non vital,

a loan is always risky,
a good bank ask what you have if you can not pay?
what these Banksters ask? for secure?
peopleshttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#72085041) death? or harrasing their few saved economies?

in fact that might a chance for EU to understand and realize the different rates and what Banksters and corporations can do to states,
and take control of capitalistic anarchy

PS
would you give a friend money with high rates when you know he can not pay back?

ElHorsto
05-07-15, 20:44
After that only Angela accepting the choice of Greeks she declared that she will not speak again until referendum ends,
and force the rest not to openly discuss the subject,
told you it is the first time I could click a Like to her

She always manages to escape trouble in the last moment.

Angela
05-07-15, 20:47
The EU and the banks and investment houses and the Greek politicians were all complicit in this. Nobody has clean hands.

I know something about real estate in the U.S. It used to be that to get a home loan you had to put up 25% of the value of the home, and your mortgage payments couldn't be more than one quarter of your monthly take home pay. Then, all of a sudden the banks were giving out loans with nothing down, no collateral, no credit checks, no income checks, nothing. Part of the reason was the desire to give all Americans the ability to own a home, so the government was providing all this money for loans. Banks took the easy money. Loan officers would get bonuses for every mortgage they produced. Prices started climbing. Speculators got into the act.

Some lenders bought into the illusion that people would somehow pay, and if not, you could just take back the value of the house, which was always rising. Some knew the danger, but they knew how to minimize it as well, selling the mortgages to less savvy people as soon as possible.

Everybody knows the rest of the story.

This wasn't so different. The EU knew the accounts were false, so did the investment banks, and so did the Greek politicians. There was no way that a country of 11 million with their type of economy was ever going to be able to pay it back. Where are the oil fields like Scotland's, or the coal or the rich farmland? The only way that it could have worked was if there had been investment into the Greek economy, but there wasn't. The banks just wanted their interest payments.

In the U.S. a couple of companies went under, but the government stepped in to bail out the rest of the banks, because they were "too big to fail". I was against it, but maybe there was a little bit of justice in it, because the government was complicit in what went on.

In the case of Greece, it wasn't too big to fail, so they let it fail.

Is this really what they intended to happen, however?

Bankruptcy, both individual and corporate, happens all the time. The creditors here almost always make the best of a bad situation and try to help the creditor regroup so that the loan is not a total loss. Companies often voluntarily go into court to get the debt restructured so they can get back on their feet. That's the practical, business like approach. It seems to me that in this case emotion ruled, emotion based on nationalistic feelings as much as anything else.

On the other hand, the debtor has to have some understanding that it has to restructure and has to work toward paying back the loan or at least the reduced loan. I don't see any such willingness on behalf of the Greek people. They've been fed a load of fantasy by their leaders that somehow the money will magically appear or fall from the trees to fund their social welfare state. You have to produce money in order to spend money on these things.

So, I'm not sanguine about Greece's prospects under this extreme socialist government. They know less about economics than a four year old. Have Europeans learned nothing from the last hundred years? Socialism doesn't work. You just all wind up poor together.

Yetos
05-07-15, 20:49
She always manages to escape trouble in the last moment.

well she is good,
respectable enemy or ally, however you see it,

LeBrok
05-07-15, 22:17
they knew that would not take them back didn't they?
but their greed now wants land and oil and ports and trains and highway,

their greed was so much, that blind them, asking 10 times more the amount of capitalhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#56017779),
while they knew that Greek economy was trebling and non vital,

a loan is always risky,
a good bank ask what you have if you can not pay?
what these Banksters ask? for secure?
peopleshttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#72085041) death? or harrasing their few saved economies?

in fact that might a chance for EU to understand and realize the different rates and what Banksters and corporations can do to states,
and take control of capitalistic anarchy

PS
would you give a friend money with high rates when you know he can not pay back?
I gave money to friends without interest and they pay when they can.

Are you saying that Greeks were friends with IMF? I don't think it was about making friends, but doing business. They gave money with high interest rate, because they knew it is a risky business with Greek economy and government. Well, they were right.

Garrick
05-07-15, 23:37
Socialism doesn't work.

In Yugoslavia invented self managing socialism, what didn't exist in the world. It was system where social ownership of the means of production was dominant, not state property as in countries of socialist block. System worked and gave certain results. Yet it has demonstrated some weaknesses. One of main weaknesses was that enterprises had both economic and social function. At the time of prosperity that is able to function and achieves results despite the demonstrated weaknesses. But when economy began to decline it proved to be unsustainable. However, interesting socio-economic experiment, someone can learn its advantages and disadvantages.

Capitalism generally is better system. I think it creates a more responsible behavior of market participants. Capitalism can be sustainable but it must take into account the wither aspects including environmental protection, resource constraints, influence of industry on climate etc. Economic crisis has revealed some weaknesses of capitalism. When such situations happen usually opportunities for inventions occur in large scale. Human nature is not perfect, all of us are well-known market participants who seek a variety of ways to cheat and corrupted politicians who say one thing and do another. But people are creative by nature too, people can creating something new, and I do not doubt that people will find ways to overcome the crisis and for further prosperity of mankind.

...
By the way, courageous decision of Greeks who went to the polls. What is especially interesting young people have voted in favour of NO, by around 2:1! Usually young people are harbingers of something new.

LeBrok
05-07-15, 23:53
...
By the way, courageous decision of Greeks who went to the polls. What is especially interesting young people have voted in favour of NO, by around 2:1! Usually young people are harbingers of something new.
I thought they will chicken out and pick the safer option the "Yes". Now they will go into unknown.

Angela
06-07-15, 02:25
In Yugoslavia invented self managing socialism, what didn't exist in the world. It was system where social ownership of the means of production was dominant, not state property as in countries of socialist block. System worked and gave certain results. Yet it has demonstrated some weaknesses. One of main weaknesses was that enterprises had both economic and social function. At the time of prosperity that is able to function and achieves results despite the demonstrated weaknesses. But when economy began to decline it proved to be unsustainable. However, interesting socio-economic experiment, someone can learn its advantages and disadvantages.

Capitalism generally is better system. I think it creates a more responsible behavior of market participants. Capitalism can be sustainable but it must take into account the wither aspects including environmental protection, resource constraints, influence of industry on climate etc. Economic crisis has revealed some weaknesses of capitalism. When such situations happen usually opportunities for inventions occur in large scale. Human nature is not perfect, all of us are well-known market participants who seek a variety of ways to cheat and corrupted politicians who say one thing and do another. But people are creative by nature too, people can creating something new, and I do not doubt that people will find ways to overcome the crisis and for further prosperity of mankind.

...
By the way, courageous decision of Greeks who went to the polls. What is especially interesting young people have voted in favour of NO, by around 2:1! Usually young people are harbingers of something new.

I agree with everything you wrote except your last sentence. Young people today have been totally spoilt and over-indulged by their parents and grandparents, especially in Europe. They have no conception that money has to be created before it can be spent; it doesn't fall from trees. They think times were tough the last couple of years? All those pensions, government salaries etc. will have to be paid for out of what they produce, and there won't be enough.

It's becoming like that here too...if you take a microphone out and interview twenty-somethings, they'll say they think there should not only be free health care, there should be free housing, and free food and free everything. Problem is, who will pay for it all? It won't be some of them; they'll be lying around drunk or unconscious from drugs, living in mom's basement.

Yetos
06-07-15, 05:49
I gave moneyhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#65301818) to friends without interest and they pay when they can.

Are you saying that Greeks were friends with IMF? I don't think it was about making friends, but doing business. They gave moneyhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#5967606) with high interest rate, because they knew it is a risky business with Greek economy and government. Well, they were right.

correct,
you do not give with high interest, or ask 10 the quantity you gave
and you do not give high quantity loan to peoplehttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#38225051) you know that can not pay you back,
how on earth these 'smart genious' you call head of capitalismhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#52257735) gave?
ask your shelf why?
are they 'smart? or are they so dump?
neither, their purpose is something else,
I see you notice the bankrupts Greece had in Past,
did you also notice the times?
if you notice and know modern Greek history, welcome, a war is near.

and you have to know and realize it,
cost of freedom is expensive
and freedom is not an iphone, neither a BMW,
Milton Friedman say many correct, but not this.
but how can I be Freehttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#23555104) in a capitalistic system when I find my shelf to own more than I can earn or produce , without even touching that money?
so in communism people are victims of equality and party
in Capitalism people are prisoners to loans with out even touch a single cent of it.
so we destroy Communism once and for all and welldone,
time to destroy bankers who enslave without their will
time to make world free again,awayhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#69627268) from Venician/Rothschild system, 'hallowed be this course, Blessed the act'

PS
personally I did not vote
I belong to 40% of Greeks who wanted the referendum to be canceled,
at this time it could be a subject of civil war,
something my country knew and passed and still the pain remained for generations
I accept the results, and I will suport it, nomatter it is |No or Yes and pray to Gods to keep us united,

Kardu
06-07-15, 10:05
Interesting analysis from the far left perspective written before the referendum results were known.
The fact is that the status-quo is broken and new reality is being formed, the crisis bringing new opportunities to different forces.

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/07/tsipras-default-euro-syriza-merkel/

Kardu
06-07-15, 12:53
"From the beginning, Merkel and the EU have operated from the position that because Greece took on debt, Greece now needs to pay it back. That position assumed — bizarrely, in hindsight — that debt only works one way: if you lend someone money, then they pay it back.
But that is NOT how free markets work.
Debt is not a guarantee of future payments in full. Rather, it is a risk that creditors take, in hopes of maybe being paid tomorrow.
The key word there is "risk.

If you're willing to take the risk, you'll get a premium — in the form of interest.
But the downside of that risk is that you lose your money. And Greece just called Germany's bluff."

http://www.businessinsider.com/greece-referendum-result-and-the-meaning-of-debt-2015-7

bicicleur
06-07-15, 14:24
"From the beginning, Merkel and the EU have operated from the position that because Greece took on debt, Greece now needs to pay it back. That position assumed — bizarrely, in hindsight — that debt only works one way: if you lend someone money, then they pay it back.
But that is NOT how free markets work.
Debt is not a guarantee of future payments in full. Rather, it is a risk that creditors take, in hopes of maybe being paid tomorrow.
The key word there is "risk.

If you're willing to take the risk, you'll get a premium — in the form of interest.
But the downside of that risk is that you lose your money. And Greece just called Germany's bluff."

http://www.businessinsider.com/greece-referendum-result-and-the-meaning-of-debt-2015-7

in commerce, if your debtor refuses to pay you will try all legal ways to collect it anyway, eventualy forcing him to pay
you certainly will not grant him a new loan, you will blacklist him

and yes, European politicians are to blaim, they never should have granted these loans to Greece in the first place
but politicians don't have to worry, it's not their money that is waisted, it's the taxpayers

you allways tell half the trueth, only the part that is convenient for you
I hope you're at least smart enough to realise that

Kardu
06-07-15, 14:33
in commerce, if your debtor refuses to pay you will try all legal ways to collect it anyway, eventualy forcing him to pay
you certainly will not grant him a new loan, you will blacklist him

and yes, European politicians are to blaim, they never should have granted these loans to Greece in the first place
but politicians don't have to worry, it's not their money that is waisted, it's the taxpayers

you allways tell half the trueth, only the part that is convenient for you
I hope you're at least smart enough to realise that

None of the words were mine, it's a quote from the article.
I hope you're at least smart enough to realise that


P.S. oops, no, seems you were not..

LeBrok
06-07-15, 16:23
The finance minister was fired! I think it is a sign to Ezone that Greek government is willing to cut a deal soon.

Whatever, things are already messed up. New deal might take a month or two to iron, in mean time Greek banks will be closed. (Yetos should be happy, he hates banks)
Yesterday Greeks were dancing in the street. In a month they will be fighting from hunger and despair.
Greek government should have Drachmas printed already, before they played the bluff card.

Yetos
06-07-15, 17:25
The finance minister was fired! I think it is a sign to Ezone that Greek government is willing to cut a deal soon.

Whatever, things are already messed up. New deal might take a month or two to iron, in mean time Greek banks will be closed. (Yetos should be happy, he hates banks)
Yesterday Greeks were dancing in the street. In a month they will be fighting from hunger and despair.
Greek government should have Drachmas printed already, before they played the bluff card.

nope he retired

and the next one is Gerun Djisselbloem
if Djisselbloem will not retire Baroufakis will come back.

It is our problem if we die from hunger,

AT LEAST WILL DIE FREE

do not forget
our national anthem is an hymn to Freedom,
not dedicated to land, neither a quenn, neither a king, to Freedom and at end of the month, will give a lesson to world that bankers are not smarter than common people,
SO NO MORE IN FUTURE MONEY VULTURES HARASH PEOPLE THROUGH CRAP LOANS TO STATESFrom Venice times to American civil war toNapoleon to WW2 bankers earned from peoples misery, and war.
time for EU to stop this madness

PS
strangely the truth is that illegal immigrtion drop drmatically this week,
can someone guess why?health and freedom, the ultimate goods in this world

Garrick
06-07-15, 18:19
I agree with everything you wrote except your last sentence. Young people today have been totally spoilt and over-indulged by their parents and grandparents, especially in Europe. They have no conception that money has to be created before it can be spent; it doesn't fall from trees. They think times were tough the last couple of years? All those pensions, government salaries etc. will have to be paid for out of what they produce, and there won't be enough.

It's becoming like that here too...if you take a microphone out and interview twenty-somethings, they'll say they think there should not only be free health care, there should be free housing, and free food and free everything. Problem is, who will pay for it all? It won't be some of them; they'll be lying around drunk or unconscious from drugs, living in mom's basement.

I will exclude Greece, I will say something about rest of Balkans. Young people high depend on their parents, in some cases even middle generation! Why they are not more independent the part of reason are cultural, but not only cultural. Some sociologists link with emancipation of women (?) but in socialism emancipation of women has long ceased, Communists fought zealously for emancipation, it is no reason. Laziness or passivity young generation, it is possible to some extent. Economic reasons are clearly significant. But not finding their role in society can have more roots. Disappointment in politics, running from reality, new technologies and avoiding social life outside of virtual, discarding great ideas, etc. Protestant working ethics mostly does not live here. I hope that situation will be better. Surely parents can improve situation with different upbringing, school system too. Things can be better, but society must to work on it and to change what it's no good.

Kardu
06-07-15, 18:24
Varoufakis on the situation in Greece in 2012:

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2012/01/europes-greek-moment/

bicicleur
06-07-15, 20:00
nope he retired

and the next one is Gerun Djisselbloem
if Djisselbloem will not retire Baroufakis will come back.

It is our problem if we die from hunger,

AT LEAST WILL DIE FREE

do not forget
our national anthem is an hymn to Freedom,
not dedicated to land, neither a quenn, neither a king, to Freedom and at end of the month, will give a lesson to world that bankers are not smarter than common people,
SO NO MORE IN FUTURE MONEY VULTURES HARASH PEOPLE THROUGH CRAP LOANS TO STATESFrom Venice times to American civil war toNapoleon to WW2 bankers earned from peoples misery, and war.
time for EU to stop this madness

PS
strangely the truth is that illegal immigrtion drop drmatically this week,
can someone guess why?health and freedom, the ultimate goods in this world

don't you think Greece has been governed by the wrong leaders?
yes banks are fault, and Euro-politicians are fault but the main culpables are the Greek government who asked for allways more money and didn't spend it wisely
Tsipras says Greece don't want to accept European terms, but he should come up with a valid alternative then
yes you don't have to obey any queen or king, but your politic leaders are making a lot bigger mess

bicicleur
06-07-15, 20:03
Varoufakis on the situation in Greece in 2012:

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2012/01/europes-greek-moment/

Jacobinmag - the bible
Varoufakis - a big prophet

Angela
06-07-15, 20:07
I will exclude Greece, I will say something about rest of Balkans. Young people high depend on their parents, in some cases even middle generation! Why they are not more independent the part of reason are cultural, but not only cultural. Some sociologists link with emancipation of women (?) but in socialism emancipation of women has long ceased, Communists fought zealously for emancipation, it is no reason. Laziness or passivity young generation, it is possible to some extent. Economic reasons are clearly significant. But not finding their role in society can have more roots. Disappointment in politics, running from reality, new technologies and avoiding social life outside of virtual, discarding great ideas, etc. Protestant working ethics mostly does not live here. I hope that situation will be better. Surely parents can improve situation with different upbringing, school system too. Things can be better, but society must to work on it and to change what it's no good.

Again, I agree.

I'll give just one example. The economy has contracted here too, although not to the extent of Europe's. There are young people who can't get a job that matches their educational qualifications. Most of them still, thank-goodness, don't think that means that they can just live off their parents. Yes, a good many have moved back home, and there's nothing wrong with that, but you have to contribute, and if that means you have to get a job as a waiter, or a lifeguard, or whatever, that's what you do, until you find something in your career path. There's nothing demeaning about honest work. I don't see that kind of attitude among my young relatives in Italy. They think that kind of work is beneath them, as is anything connected to working their ancestral land.

Not that it isn't changing here as well, however. Within the last year two families of my acquaintance have taken in a child, that child's significant other and a baby. Nor was it a case where the young family had fallen temporarily on hard times and needed to regroup. It was just total irresponsibility from start to finish. Not unlike welfare mothers, only in this case the parents provide the welfare.

One thing should be understood, however. What has happened in Greece has nothing to do with any kind of ingrained genetic laziness. Greek Americans and Italian Americans as well, for that matter, have a reputation for being incredibly hard workers and for making a good living here in the States, even if it means working all the hours God sends in some diner or other small business. There's nothing lazy about them.

Kardu
06-07-15, 20:24
Jacobinmag - the bible
Varoufakis - a big prophet

Still trying to comprehend, don't ya? :)

Yetos
06-07-15, 20:27
don't you think Greece has been governed by the wrong leaders?
yes banks are fault, and Euro-politicians are fault but the main culpables are the Greek government who asked for allways more money and didn't spend it wisely
Tsipras says Greece don't want to accept European terms, but he should come up with a valid alternative then
yes you don't have to obey any queen or king, but your politic leaders are making a lot bigger mess

told ya
I did not went to vote,
I and other 40% of Greeks wanted the referendum to be canceled,
but I have to respect the results,
I have to stay with my people, I do not want another civil war,
let the Bankers have inner/civil war, not states,
So I must stick to no nomatter the effects,
about our politic leaders, I agree with you,
they should all go to prison and rot there,
but Γουδι (1rst WW executions) was set much after problem,
until now they covered behind a law for responsibilities, but till when?

50% is our responsibilities, so we will suffer for our ΥΒΡΙΣ to live like Medes(ΜΗΔΗΖΕΙΝ)
and yes we will be hungry, and die due to lack of insouline or others medicines,
and we might not have a car, but with head up, staring the stars at the sky,
anyway, because Greeks was always in the progress of European afairs except the times between 1450-1750,
search for a possible war around, either economical either military,
most of our politicians must be hanged, or make them statue,
Stupidity from Heroism is not far,
anyway it is 21:20 here, at 00:01 i must take my money with coupon, 60 E per day like in communistic countries,
but what else can I do? waiting for solutions, or suffer, or action?
misery, and proud,

DuPidh
06-07-15, 22:14
told ya
I did not went to vote,
I and other 40% of Greeks wanted the referendum to be canceled,
but I have to respect the results,
I have to stay with my people, I do not want another civil war,
let the Bankers have inner/civil war, not states,
So I must stick to no nomatter the effects,
about our politic leaders, I agree with you,
they should all go to prison and rot there,
but Γουδι (1rst WW executions) was set much after problem,
until now they covered behind a law for responsibilities, but till when?

50% is our responsibilities, so we will suffer for our ΥΒΡΙΣ to live like Medes(ΜΗΔΗΖΕΙΝ)
and yes we will be hungry, and die due to lack of insouline or others medicines,
and we might not have a car, but with head up, staring the stars at the sky,
anyway, because Greeks was always in the progress of European afairs except the times between 1450-1750,
search for a possible war around, either economical either military,
most of our politicians must be hanged, or make them statue,
Stupidity from Heroism is not far,
anyway it is 21:20 here, at 00:01 i must take my money with coupon, 60 E per day like in communistic countries,
but what else can I do? waiting for solutions, or suffer, or action?
misery, and proud,

Greek referendum was ridiculous.
No matter what the outcome of future agreements with creditors Greek debt showed three things:
a) If Greeks have money in their hands they don't know what to do with them
b) they have no shame,
c) their appetite is large and they want others to work to satisfy their appetite

I would say that their schools are to blame since they have not inspired anybody to learn trades and create business
They are not alone. The whole Balkans have more or less the same problems

Yetos
06-07-15, 22:24
Greek referendum was ridiculous.
No matter what the outcome of future agreements with creditors Greek debt showed three things:
a) If Greeks have money in their hands they don't know what to do with them
b) they have no shame,
c) their appetite is large and they want others to work to satisfy their appetite

I would say that their schools are to blame since they have not inspired anybody to learn trades and create business
They are not alone. The whole Balkans have more or less the same problems

thank you,
we learn business from you, and your country,
which surely is not Mexico,
and since your schools are so good, why you come to our schoolls?
and since you know business why you come and work for our businessmen?

bicicleur
06-07-15, 22:31
told ya
I did not went to vote,
I and other 40% of Greeks wanted the referendum to be canceled,
but I have to respect the results,
I have to stay with my people, I do not want another civil war,
let the Bankers have inner/civil war, not states,
So I must stick to no nomatter the effects,
about our politic leaders, I agree with you,
they should all go to prison and rot there,
but Γουδι (1rst WW executions) was set much after problem,
until now they covered behind a law for responsibilities, but till when?

50% is our responsibilities, so we will suffer for our ΥΒΡΙΣ to live like Medes(ΜΗΔΗΖΕΙΝ)
and yes we will be hungry, and die due to lack of insouline or others medicines,
and we might not have a car, but with head up, staring the stars at the sky,
anyway, because Greeks was always in the progress of European afairs except the times between 1450-1750,
search for a possible war around, either economical either military,
most of our politicians must be hanged, or make them statue,
Stupidity from Heroism is not far,
anyway it is 21:20 here, at 00:01 i must take my money with coupon, 60 E per day like in communistic countries,
but what else can I do? waiting for solutions, or suffer, or action?
misery, and proud,

I understand, Yetos
I don't have an answer

bicicleur
06-07-15, 22:35
Still trying to comprehend, don't ya? :)

I have to dissapoint you
I'll never see the light
You can't save me

Yetos
06-07-15, 23:07
I understand, Yetos
I don't have an answer

we are livinghttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#98596839) the days of psychosis and neurosis ΨΥΧΩΣΙΣ & ΝΕΥΡΩΣΙΣ, 2 Greek words
neurosis is when you blame your shelf always, for what went wrong,
psychosis is when you always blame the others for what went wrong

so old govermental parties seem neurotic in this politico/economical affair (other 2 Greek words, ΠΟΛΙΣ ΟΙΚΟΝΟΜΙΑ)
we got tired to blaim our shelves for the corruption of politicians,
and we went to other side,
psychotics, and we choosε radical lefthttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#19908795), and now we blaim the others,
Madnesshttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#83804902) Mania, another Greek word ΜΑΝΙΑ,
and I have the others to tell me that this capitalistic system is good, :useless:
only causes mental illness :laughing:,

Angela
06-07-15, 23:46
told ya
I did not went to vote,
I and other 40% of Greeks wanted the referendum to be canceled,
but I have to respect the results,
I have to stay with my people, I do not want another civil war,
let the Bankers have inner/civil war, not states,
So I must stick to no nomatter the effects,
about our politic leaders, I agree with you,
they should all go to prison and rot there,
but Γουδι (1rst WW executions) was set much after problem,
until now they covered behind a law for responsibilities, but till when?

50% is our responsibilities, so we will suffer for our ΥΒΡΙΣ to live like Medes(ΜΗΔΗΖΕΙΝ)
and yes we will be hungry, and die due to lack of insouline or others medicines,
and we might not have a car, but with head up, staring the stars at the sky,
anyway, because Greeks was always in the progress of European afairs except the times between 1450-1750,
search for a possible war around, either economical either military,
most of our politicians must be hanged, or make them statue,
Stupidity from Heroism is not far,
anyway it is 21:20 here, at 00:01 i must take my money with coupon, 60 E per day like in communistic countries,
but what else can I do? waiting for solutions, or suffer, or action?
misery, and proud,

I'm so desperately sorry this is happening, Yetos.

DuPidh
06-07-15, 23:51
thank you,
we learn business from you, and your country,
which surely is not Mexico,
and since your schools are so good, why you come to our schoolls?
and since you know business why you come and work for our businessmen?

Nobody is coming to be educated in Greece!
The only good school of business Greeks have is "University of Suflaki"

Yetos
07-07-15, 00:14
Nobody is coming to be educated in Greece!
The only good school of business Greeks have is "University of Suflaki"

I am certain you did not try it yet,
and you never will

Kardu
07-07-15, 00:27
I have to dissapoint you
I'll never see the light
You can't save me

No worries, I suspected that

Garrick
07-07-15, 02:01
I thought they will chicken out and pick the safer option the "Yes". Now they will go into unknown.

The vote of young people everywhere is significant.

But studies show that youth is less interested in political process than older generations, for example one European research:

The research found that, as in previous European elections, a minority of young people (28% aged 18-24) voted, lower than any other age group (for example 51% of those aged 55 or over voted).

Why don't young people vote?

https://euobserver.com/opinion/126431

...
I'm Europhile, but words community and solidarity are less heard these days. Community has to demonstrates solidarity.

DuPidh
07-07-15, 02:45
I am certain you did not try it yet,
and you never will

Greece is obviously a failed country!
The best thing for Europe to do is to open negotiations with Turkey to retake back Greece and govern it again.
Turks have shown that they are a lot better governors.
Germany should apologize for its actions in 19th century that helped Greece succeed from Turkey.

Angela
07-07-15, 03:09
Greece is obviously a failed country!
The best thing for Europe to do is to open negotiations with Turkey to retake back Greece and govern it again.
Turks have shown that they are a lot better governors.
Germany should apologize for its actions in 19th century that helped Greece succeed from Turkey.

That's enough.

Angela
07-07-15, 05:01
The vote of young people everywhere is significant.

But studies show that youth is less interested in political process than older generations, for example one European research:

The research found that, as in previous European elections, a minority of young people (28% aged 18-24) voted, lower than any other age group (for example 51% of those aged 55 or over voted).

Why don't young people vote?

https://euobserver.com/opinion/126431

...
I'm Europhile, but words community and solidarity are less heard these days. Community has to demonstrates solidarity.

Many of them are too uneducated, or immature, or befuddled by all the superficial mind numbing media they consume to appreciate how many people died to give them that privilege which they hold so cheaply.

LeBrok
07-07-15, 06:34
The vote of young people everywhere is significant.

But studies show that youth is less interested in political process than older generations, for example one European research:

The research found that, as in previous European elections, a minority of young people (28% aged 18-24) voted, lower than any other age group (for example 51% of those aged 55 or over voted).

Why don't young people vote?

https://euobserver.com/opinion/126431

...
I'm Europhile, but words community and solidarity are less heard these days. Community has to demonstrates solidarity.
It is typical for young people everywhere. They are less engaged in political process. Perhaps they have so good that they don't care to change the world, but having fun all the time.

Maleth
07-07-15, 16:06
Now referendum is done and gone. What has changed exactly?......

LeBrok
07-07-15, 16:49
Now referendum is done and gone. What has changed exactly?......
Greeks had one more party thanks to referendum. :)
If they voted Yes they would accepted EU proposal, got money and banks re-opened. Now we have uncertainty, new deal needs to be made, and till then banks are closed. Unless Putin or Chinese will rush with their money to help.
But as Yetos mentioned, they all know they will never get their money back, so they won't give it to Greece, unless they are stupid.

Maleth
07-07-15, 17:10
Greeks had one more party thanks to referendum. :)
If they voted Yes they would accepted EU proposal, got money and banks re-opened. Now we have uncertainty, new deal needs to be made, and till then banks are closed. Unless Putin or Chinese will rush with their money to help.
But as Yetos mentioned, they all know they will never get their money back, so they won't give it to Greece, unless they are stupid.

Also buying time to find that Eureka moment for a magic potion, that is looking more as a tragic ending that will prove the Delphi Oracles wrong :). I heard today Greece is considering joining the BRICS group. Seems like this Tsipras Government is looking at all options accept the only one that makes most sense, which is tax reform, less government spending and easier business incentives to help the economy grow and Greeks with money invest in their own country and encourage more outside investments to absorb real growth.

LeBrok
08-07-15, 05:08
Also buying time to find that Eureka moment for a magic potion, that is looking more as a tragic ending that will prove the Delphi Oracles wrong :). I heard today Greece is considering joining the BRICS group. I think it was just a bluff to get a better deal from Eurozone. Though, Russians might be sympathetic to the idea of pulling Greeks into Russian Alliance. It would be quite tough for Putin to keep doling out tens of billions for Greece, in tough economic times for Russia. I don't think he would open up his private wallet of 200 billion either. He is not that generous man, not even for his Russian countrymen.
Now Tsipras is scrambling hard to secure any deal with Eurozone to open banks, and not to be kicked out off Eurozone. Deal might be worse than before referendum, EU is angry now. I'm not sure if he thought about printing Drachmas in advance, just to have plan B ready.


Seems like this Tsipras Government is looking at all options accept the only one that makes most sense, which is tax reform, less government spending and easier business incentives to help the economy grow and Greeks with money invest in their own country and encourage more outside investments to absorb real growth. Who would have thought, that good economy, actual production of goods, is a key for well-being of any developed country, good social services, good standard of living, and helps balance a budget. It even helps to get out of financial mess as US, Ireland and few others might attest. Unfortunately for all parties involved, the production economy is a very foreign concept to Greeks, at least for Greek Governments.

This is a very symptomatic and chronic problem. Perhaps, quality of politicians, their education and understanding economy should be questioned. Perhaps we, or Greeks because it was their idea, should reform democracy first, with the goal of get quality governance, to get most talented people of them all to run the country.

Yetos
08-07-15, 08:08
I think it was just a bluff to get a better deal from Eurozone. Though, Russians might be sympathetic to the idea of pulling Greeks into Russian Alliance. It would be quite tough for Putin to keep doling out tens of billions for Greece, in tough economic times for Russia. I don't think he would open up his private wallet of 200 billion either. He is not that generous man, not even for his Russian countrymen.
Now Tsipras is scrambling hard to secure any deal with Eurozone to open banks, and not to be kicked out off Eurozone. Deal might be worse than before referendum, EU is angry now. I'm not sure if he thought about printing Drachmas in advance, just to have plan B ready.

Who would have thought, that good economy, actual production of goods, is a key for well-being of any developed country, good social services, good standard of living, and helps balance a budget. It even helps to get out of financial mess as US, Ireland and few others might attest. Unfortunately for all parties involved, the production economy is a very foreign concept to Greeks, at least for Greek Governments.

This is a very symptomatic and chronic problem. Perhaps, quality of politicians, their education and understanding economy should be questioned. Perhaps we, or Greeks because it was their idea, should reform democracy first, with the goal of get quality governance, to get most talented people of them all to run the country.

The Mexican carred mored about than Russians,
a mexican banker or businness man named Sallinas came to greece and forced Greeks to go to Silver Drachma,
Russians want the raillways, they ask many times for them, to transfer goods safely to Russia
and an oil pipe to to sell oil to Mediterenean,
Russians know that are welcomed for merchant and holidays, but not for political affairs,
in the diplomatic level relations are good, but limited to trade,
They will not dare to mess with a OTAN country,

your last question is good, very good to discuss, maybe in future, Europe, that always was ahead in political try and dare, and has experience from Nazi to Communists can solve it soon,

bicicleur
08-07-15, 08:28
Who would have thought, that good economy, actual production of goods, is a key for well-being of any developed country, good social services, good standard of living, and helps balance a budget. It even helps to get out of financial mess as US, Ireland and few others might attest. Unfortunately for all parties involved, the production economy is a very foreign concept to Greeks, at least for Greek Governments.

This is a very symptomatic and chronic problem. Perhaps, quality of politicians, their education and understanding economy should be questioned. Perhaps we, or Greeks because it was their idea, should reform democracy first, with the goal of get quality governance, to get most talented people of them all to run the country.

I think this is the biggest thread of all for Europe in this whole Greek soap.
By helping the Greeks out without the necessary reform, those politicians who deny the role of economics will win.
Politics and democracy isn't about economics, it's about short term popularity. It's a dangerous game, and I don't know whether it will survive in the long run.

Maciamo
08-07-15, 20:29
Guy Verhofstadt, the former Belgian PM, heavily criticised Alexis Tsipras at the EU Parliament today. Watch the video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=372&v=P84tN0z4jqM

Sile
08-07-15, 20:47
As I said many years ago, you cannot have nations in the EU and make it work, it does not work because nations have too much power. Economists in the 1990s stated this many a time but where ignored.

There should have been regional levels and not national levels or at best use the EU voting division, IIRC , italy has 4 splits, france 5, spain 4 etc etc

Angela
08-07-15, 20:55
On Dienekes' blog

Not my business but I think you're wrong. This is not really about the EU, it's about the ongoing consequences of what happened to the banks in 2008 and the banks are going to bleed you dry unless you break away.

Dienekes: "In the case of Greece, the culprit was not the banks, but our government that was chronically in deficit, thus amassing a mountain of debt.

That debt could be financed until -as a result of 2008- investors became suspicious of highly-rated investments such as Eurozone bonds, and the pile of Greek debt was no longer sustainable.

Moreover, the socialist government that came to power in 2009, foolishly tried to keep its unrealistic campaign promises by distributing 2bn Euros in 2009 and continuing to proclaim that it would increase wages and pensions, instead of retrenching. The markets -rightly- understood that Greek finances were no longer sustainable, which set off the Greek crisis.

Unfortunately, the narrative that has succeeded in Greek society was that the misery of the last five years is due to our creditors, when in fact it is a necessary -and painful- adjustment, which was made even more painful by the policy mix which emphasized tax increases and wage/pension cuts, instead of firing off civil servants, privatization, and cutting bureaucracy. Moreover, just as the Greek economy finally hit rock bottom and had a small primary surplus and growth in 2014, the Greek electorate decided to throw it all out the window by electing the rag-tag coalition of communists, Maoists, and assorted loonies into power, which messed up the recovery and brought us to our current condition."

I agree with much of this, with his analysis of what should have been done to cut the deficit, and particularly with his analysis of the present government, which seems to be made up of idiots without any sort of plan as to how to get out of this mess, but the EU was at fault as well, as were the investment companies and banks. There are also endemic problems with the basic structure of the EU, and the use of the Euro has been no unalloyed benefit to some European countries.

arvistro
08-07-15, 21:27
In Latvia, which after 50 years of communism is or was poorer country than Greece, we went through all this. Those were hard years, but we paid our debts.
Greeks want to live fat and let somebody else pay. I totally not gonna show any solidarity.

Yetos
08-07-15, 23:49
In Latvia, which after 50 years of communism is or was poorer country than Greece, we went through all this. Those were hard years, but we paid our debts.
Greeks want to live fat and let somebody else pay. I totally not gonna show any solidarity.

Sorry pal,
but we never asked your solidarity,

we only ask what EUROPE owns to Greece from WW2,

besides who cares about a Deutsch protectorate,
our difference is that we were born Greeks and will die as Greeks,
I wonder as what you will die,

we do not care about what Europe will gives us,
WE CARE ABOUT WHAT EUROPE OWNS US FROM WW2.

and for this mess, it is not only Greek fault,
it is also EU and Bankers fault,
so go and give your solidarity and trust to BANKSTERS

Sile
09-07-15, 01:04
We all realise that the capital of the EU is in Berlin and not in Brussels , don't we!

LeBrok
09-07-15, 03:30
Guy Verhofstadt, the former Belgian PM, heavily criticised Alexis Tsipras at the EU Parliament today. Watch the video.


I love it. It is time to finally end this hoopla.

LeBrok
09-07-15, 03:34
Sorry pal,
but we never asked your solidarity,

we only ask what EUROPE owns to Greece from WW2,

besides who cares about a Deutsch protectorate,
our difference is that we were born Greeks and will die as Greeks,
I wonder as what you will die,

we do not care about what Europe will gives us,
WE CARE ABOUT WHAT EUROPE OWNS US FROM WW2.

and for this mess, it is not only Greek fault,
it is also EU and Bankers fault,
so go and give your solidarity and trust to BANKSTERS



Stop living in the past, work for the future.

LeBrok
09-07-15, 03:38
I think this is the biggest thread of all for Europe in this whole Greek soap.
By helping the Greeks out without the necessary reform, those politicians who deny the role of economics will win. I agree, if they want to stay in Eurozone they need to play to the rules. If they want to debt free they need to leave, or be kicked out, and fend for themselves. It is the highest time to end this farce for sake of all parties.

Politics and democracy isn't about economics, it's about short term popularity. It's a dangerous game, and I don't know whether it will survive in the long run. That's why our political and electoral system needs to be finely revamped. Political structure is the same as 200 years ago when democracies were born. Time for a reform.

Yetos
09-07-15, 07:46
Stop living in the past, work for the future.

People who forget their past, have no future,

bicicleur
09-07-15, 09:29
We all realise that the capital of the EU is in Berlin and not in Brussels , don't we!

maybe it's better like that

bicicleur
09-07-15, 09:30
Sorry pal,
but we never asked your solidarity,

we only ask what EUROPE owns to Greece from WW2,

besides who cares about a Deutsch protectorate,
our difference is that we were born Greeks and will die as Greeks,
I wonder as what you will die,

we do not care about what Europe will gives us,
WE CARE ABOUT WHAT EUROPE OWNS US FROM WW2.

and for this mess, it is not only Greek fault,
it is also EU and Bankers fault,
so go and give your solidarity and trust to BANKSTERS




so if I understand you well, you don't want to be European, you just want their money

bicicleur
09-07-15, 09:40
Guy Verhofstadt, the former Belgian PM, heavily criticised Alexis Tsipras at the EU Parliament today. Watch the video.

I liked this speech.
But I don't like Verhofstadt.
He likes theater, but he is a big opportunist.
If the wind changes tomorrow, he'll play another act.

Politicians, they are all the same.

Kardu
09-07-15, 13:54
Guy Verhofstadt, the former Belgian PM, heavily criticised Alexis Tsipras at the EU Parliament today. Watch the video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=372&v=P84tN0z4jqM

Funny performance of an annoyed bourgeois.
I bet soon he will have more reasons to lose sleep and look for calming pills.

Yetos
09-07-15, 14:41
so if I understand you well, you don't want to be European, you just want their money



my answer is I want European in multicucltural and multinational Europe,
I was born Greek I want to die as Greek in EU,
I do not want to die as German, due to EU

ElHorsto
09-07-15, 15:47
maybe it's better like that

No thanks! We will get all the blame once the whole thing collapses (although it wouldn't be entirely unjustified, sadly).

ElHorsto
09-07-15, 16:03
Guy Verhofstadt, the former Belgian PM, heavily criticised Alexis Tsipras at the EU Parliament today. Watch the video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=372&v=P84tN0z4jqM

Nice rant. Why I don't remember him talking like this to Samaras.

LeBrok
09-07-15, 16:18
Nice rant. Why I don't remember him talking like this to Samaras.
Now they are really angry from too much of Greek Drama. Everybody has his/her limit.

bicicleur
09-07-15, 17:08
what to think about this :

http://www.smh.com.au/world/greek-debt-crisis-journalists-who-criticised-syriza-investigated-by-government-agencies-20150709-gi84l1

Maciamo
09-07-15, 17:51
what to think about this :

http://www.smh.com.au/world/greek-debt-crisis-journalists-who-criticised-syriza-investigated-by-government-agencies-20150709-gi84l1


Not really a democracy. Anyway it isn't big news. Greece was ranked 41th out of 112 countries for democracy worldwide in 2014 (http://democracyranking.org/ranking/2014/data/Scores_of_the_Democracy_Ranking_2014_a4.pdf), only ahead of Bulgaria and Romania within the EU (and behind Cyprus and Croatia). For Freedom of Press (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index), Greece ranked a shameful 99th position in 2014, behind, Zambia (dictatorship), Liberia (civil war), Congo (poorest in the world), Malawi, Haiti, and, well, most of the Third World.

ElHorsto
09-07-15, 17:51
Now they are really angry from too much of Greek Drama. Everybody has his/her limit.

Those who want to end the Greek Drama, were they Yes-voters or No-voters?

ElHorsto
09-07-15, 18:30
what to think about this :

http://www.smh.com.au/world/greek-debt-crisis-journalists-who-criticised-syriza-investigated-by-government-agencies-20150709-gi84l1

Sounds familiar to me. It doesn't take much and they will complain about oppressed gays rights in Greece.

bicicleur
09-07-15, 19:44
Sounds familiar to me. It doesn't take much and they will complain about oppressed gays rights in Greece.

it looks more serious than that

maybe Tsipras is not interested in Europe, only interested in establishing his power in Greece

we should know more by monday
there may be a surprising plot, every body is playing theater and wearing a mask uptill now

Angela
09-07-15, 19:57
This is what happens when you put, to use Dienekes' words, "Communists, Maoists, and assorted loonies" in power. Of course, the same thing would happen if you put neo-fascists in power. Europe never learns.

ElHorsto
09-07-15, 19:58
it looks more serious than that

maybe Tsipras is not interested in Europe, only interested in establishing his power in Greece

we should know more by monday
there may be a surprising plot, every body is playing theater and wearing a mask uptill now

I agree, I'm also yet unable to see completely through everything. For now I would be surprised if you suspicion about Tsipras turns out to be true, especially since Varoufakis surprisingly resigned.

Yetos
09-07-15, 19:59
YO GUYS

PLZZZZZZZZZZ STOP YOUR HATE AGAINST GREECE AND GREEKS IF YOU DO NOT KNOW,

YOU ARE ALL BLIND

1)
there is a talk about a digital coin, a parallel coin named bitdrachma but only digital.
DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS THE BITCOIN ENTRANCE as IOU IN EU ECONOMICS AND ECB????????
DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT MEANS?
DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT ALMIGHTY GERMANY AND ITS PROTECTORATES ARE FAR BEHIND

many times I said I do not considerhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#51975332) Germans as smart, but as methodic, WW1 and WW2 proved that, they are the most methodic race in the world
once again i am correct,
Schauble and its minions they are so methodic, that got behind in bitcoin strategy,
perhaps its minions are so dump, that repeat/transmit masters voice without second thought
he bless his beard but he is only a counter of Rothchild system,
and the one Rothschild make fat, soon they slain him as WW1 and WW2

2)
in DIE WELT there is a dialogue of US LEW with DEUTSCHhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#70610319) Schäuble
what does it say?
'we will take Puerto Rico in E if you take Greece to $'

DOES ANYBODY UNDERSTAND WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT?

if you understand, then wait, your voices are not heared to world 'masters'

i believe for smart and clever men in the forum,
not screamers for nothing.


can not say more,
I said a war is about soon,


HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE SEEN 1) or 2) before or elsewhere?

Angela
09-07-15, 20:25
Yetos, don't buy into the propaganda and the conspiracy theories. (And I absolutely don't hate Greece.)

"The first panacea for a mismanaged nation is inflation of the currency; the second is war. Both bring a temporary prosperity; both bring a permanent ruin. But both are the refuge of political and economic opportunists."
Ernest Hemingway.

Sile
09-07-15, 20:42
Many here need to revisit what Papandreou did

On 23 April 2010 during a visit at the island of Kastelorizo, Papandreou issued a statement to the press that he instructed Finance Minister Papakonstantinou (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giorgos_Papakonstantinou) to officially ask the EU partners to activate the support mechanism, 'an unprecedented mechanism in the history and practice of the European Union (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union)'.[20] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Papandreou#cite_note-20) The support mechanism, which was put in place by the European heads of state and government and further elaborated by Euro Group (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro_Group) ministers, is a European mechanism to which the IMF (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Monetary_Fund) is associated with financing and it involves a comprehensive three-year economic program and financing conditions.[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Papandreou#cite_note-21) On 23 April 2010, Dominique Strauss-Kahn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominique_Strauss-Kahn), the Managing Director of the International Monetary Fund (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Monetary_Fund) (IMF) announced that Greece made a request for a Stand-By Arrangement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMF_Stand-By_Arrangement).[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Papandreou#cite_note-22) Papandreou and his Finance Minister Giorgos Papakonstantinou (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giorgos_Papakonstantinou) managed to convince the IMF and EU to participate in a €110bn bailout package (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis#Rescue_packages_provided_by_the_EU_and _IMF) on 9 May 2010. Greece's sovereign debt crisis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_debt_crisis), which is considered part of the European sovereign debt crisis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_sovereign_debt_crisis), is marked by massive strikes and demonstrations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010%E2%80%932011_Greek_protests).[23] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Papandreou#cite_note-23)

On 31 October, Papandreou announced his government's plans to hold a referendum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_proposed_economy_referendum,_2011) on the acceptance of the terms of a eurozone (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurozone) bailout deal.[35] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Papandreou#cite_note-Skai_Dimopsifisma_Papandreou-35) The referendum was to be held in December 2011 or January 2012.[36] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Papandreou#cite_note-Skai_Dimopsifisma_Venizelos-36) However, following the insistence of EU leaders at the G20 summit in Cannes that the referendum should be on Greece's continued membership of the eurozone, and severe criticism of such a referendum by Greek Finance Minister Venizelos and within parliament, Papandreou scrapped the plan on 3 November.[37]



what should have been done in 2010 is done now , EU is throwing good money after bad money and feel insulted on the Greek "ruse"
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Papandreou#cite_note-Cannes_EU_Summit-37)
These changes to Greece by the EU is just meant to keep the Greeks "enslaved" as the poor of the EU.

I will say it again, if you want the EU to succeed , then get rid of the nations in the EU

Sile
09-07-15, 20:51
I agree, I'm also yet unable to see completely through everything. For now I would be surprised if you suspicion about Tsipras turns out to be true, especially since Varoufakis surprisingly resigned.

he was pushed out by Tsipras as he was not a party man, the new person completes the government as a complete Tsipras group

The russians will get their Greek port ( again ) in the med. and in exchange will help with deterring illegal immigrants to Greece, something the EU failed to do.

ElHorsto
09-07-15, 21:19
he was pushed out by Tsipras as he was not a party man, the new person completes the government as a complete Tsipras group


Euclid Tsakalotos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclid_Tsakalotos), I see. He was born in the Netherlands and grew up in England. He is married to a Scotswoman. Perhaps more of a politician and less of an academic if compared to Varoufakis. Politically he seems decided.



The russians will get their Greek port ( again ) in the med. and in exchange will help with deterring illegal immigrants to Greece, something the EU failed to do.

What you say may seem obvious, but we will see. In any case there is a hard geopolitic war going on in the world already for some time, and Greece is certainly pivotal, similar like Turkey.

Yetos
09-07-15, 21:25
Euclid Tsakalotos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclid_Tsakalotos), I see. He was born in the Netherlands and grew up in England. He is married to a Scotswoman. Perhaps more of a politician and less of an academic if compared to Varoufakis. Politically he seems decided.



What you say may seem obvious, but we will see. In any case there is a hard geopolitic war going on in the world already for some time, and Greece is certainly pivotal, similar like Turkey.

Tsakalotos has his money in ING Belgium and in Blackrock,
not a single E in Greece,
he is in top 10 of 'traitors' by simple Greeks who do not belong to radical left,
his fortune are counted in ypes.gr, where all elected have to declare their fortune in order to go to politics
ypes = Υπουργειο Εσωτερικων = ministry of inner affairs

he is consider not welcome by more than 40% of Greeks who did not vote

TO UNDERSTAND REFERENDUM

voters were only Grece dwellers, not Greek citizens

30% said no to referendum, did not went to vote to cancel referendum
10% was impossible to vote due to distance >250km
36% said NO
24% YES

arvistro
09-07-15, 22:28
Sorry pal,
but we never asked your solidarity,

we only ask what EUROPE owns to Greece from WW2,

besides who cares about a Deutsch protectorate,
our difference is that we were born Greeks and will die as Greeks,
I wonder as what you will die,

we do not care about what Europe will gives us,
WE CARE ABOUT WHAT EUROPE OWNS US FROM WW2.

and for this mess, it is not only Greek fault,
it is also EU and Bankers fault,
so go and give your solidarity and trust to BANKSTERS

Europe owns nothing to Greece. Wtf? Why should Latvia or France or Finland or Slovenia or UK which are part of Europe pay anything to Greeks for WW II???

Yetos
09-07-15, 22:42
Euclid Tsakalotos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclid_Tsakalotos), I see. He was born in the Netherlands and grew up in England. He is married to a Scotswoman. Perhaps more of a politician and less of an academichttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#54312300) if compared to Varoufakis. Politically he seems decided.



What you say may seem obvious, but we will see. In any case there is a hard geopolitic war going on in the world already for some time, and Greece is certainly pivotal, similar like Turkey.

I said many times I do not trust Greek politicians,
Tsiprashttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#9232799) studied in USA Yale
Papandreou at Harvard
Samaras at Harvard,

it is more possible Greece to become a starhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#65970077) in USA flag than a Russian protectorate,
Even Schableu said something like that when he discussed with Lew,

Ivan Savvidis is interesting only in raillways and in some hotels for Russian tourists,
Hans Joakim Fuchtel just evaporate, they search from 2014, one last appearance at march 2015,
Sallinas (Mexico) is still using Lapabitsas for Silver Drachma,
and South East Asian Baroufakis for bitcoins
Chinese use a small part of Πειραιευς Peiraius Piraus, waiting to make 6 lvl dock,
and Greeks still own >40% of MAERSK,
Greek ship owners still are in London and Uruguay/Argentina
and Greek politicians prefer England and Belgium for their depositshttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#65535281),
and merchants Italy for merchandise secure,
Greek industry is leaving towards Bulgaria FYROM
Greece Cyprus Egypt Iesrael ally in oil cooperation is still on,
and oil/gas pipes waiting in Turkey for expand


@ SILE ELHORSTO,

he who has eyes to read just read to open his eyes,
21/04/1967
the rest are just trashcan transmission by ignorants,
Yes Elhorsto, it is not a gamehttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#94257416) or a caprice of Greeks,
it is a plan from Kissinger times based upon a dream of Goebbels, who only Gisgard d'Estaing has realize that time,

search how many times we change kings from 1900 to 1935?
one Κωνσταντινος was English Friendly, the other Αλεξανδρος German friendly
same is now, but not Russia,
why? Blend treaty and Dimitrof


PART 2

now many times I hear from ignorants, capitalistic transmision, without brain,
If privatization was proceeded in Greece then ok we would have less economical problems but?
DO YOU REALIZE THAT WITH PRIVATIZATION RUSSIA TAKES RAILLWAY AND CHINA HARBOR?,
and lets see what geopolitical effect has that,
first of all SONYhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#13146576), now at Netherlands and Belgium, tomorrow at Greece (COSCO ALLIES)!!!
do you understand the moneyhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#61460933)?
there is your Russian exit Sile, done in the name of capitalism and privatization,
Does Germany agree with that? guess no
second solution,
Germany takes Railway and Harbor
Germany owns Airports, already
and has share in the Spanish corporation that owns highways, (Spanish with German capitalshttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#97990597)!!!!)
so Greece a German protectorate?
is it a healthy capitalismhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#5801635) a monopolium?

Elhorsto,
Yes , Geopolitical Affairs, and a pressure through economical crisis, created by politicians/agents who took stupid loans, and bankers who gave stupid loans.




AND FINALLY
THE MOST STRANGE OF ALL
in all crisis there is always a domino effect,
those who study last liehman bro crisis know well how that effect works
DO YOU SEE ANY DOMINO EFFECT IN GREEK CRISIS?
ISN"T THAT STRANGE?
so soon we will learn the 'behind the scene',
10 years 20 30, but we will know exactly then

Piro Ilir
09-07-15, 22:56
Greece is going out of BE. Tsipras is contributing on this. Maybe to be partner of Russia and China. Greeks need to accept the reduction of their economy and their life standards. Their economic level will be equal to the other countries of the region. No way out of this

Piro Ilir
09-07-15, 22:58
Where did they found this Tsipras, anyway .....

Piro Ilir
09-07-15, 23:06
it looks more serious than that

maybe Tsipras is not interested in Europe, only interested in establishing his power in Greece

we should know more by monday
there may be a surprising plot, every body is playing theater and wearing a mask uptill now
Yes, you are right. I think Tsipras wants to bring Greece out of Europe. He is only trying to win some time to prepare the grexit


[emoji562]

Piro Ilir
09-07-15, 23:10
If Greeks wants some easy money, they should sell some of their islands

Piro Ilir
09-07-15, 23:19
There will be no drahma to save Greece. Their problems are not about Euro or drahma. Is impossible to save the Greek economy. The Greek mentality is the main problem

Piro Ilir
09-07-15, 23:20
We all realise that the capital of the EU is in Berlin and not in Brussels , don't we!
Yes. Because they work hard, not like the Greeks

Piro Ilir
09-07-15, 23:25
Stop living in the past, work for the future.
They still living on the past, don't you see that [emoji57]. They think that have the right for everything about last 4000 years at least. Amazing

Garrick
10-07-15, 00:21
They still living on the past, don't you see that. They think that have the right for everything about last 4000 years at least. Amazing

Piro, What's happened in Cannabis Kingdom?

http://www.khabar.eu/eight-arrested-over-albania-cannabis-kingdom-shootout/

According to an Italian police report, until that operation the village was producing about 900 tonnes of cannabis annually, worth some 4.5 billion euros ($5 billion) — equivalent to almost a third of Albania’s gross domestic product.

...
By the way, first look in your yard.

Yetos
10-07-15, 01:08
Yes. Because they work hard, not like the Greeks


Ilir?
in your country peoplehttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#80041907) work hard?
I see in the video their work!!!

https:/ wwwhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#75480776).youtube.com/watch?v=hup1qdpgzF4


and I see their products

https:/ wwwhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#75163005).youtube.com/watch?v=nVhYCvjga3w


Fantastic farming works
Hydroponia?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BQ0iIGbYsg&spfreload=10




Ilir is this hard work?
IS THAT ALBANIAN HARD WORK?

LeBrok
10-07-15, 02:23
Those who want to end the Greek Drama, were they Yes-voters or No-voters?
European politicians, not mentioning the rest of people.

Maciamo
10-07-15, 07:36
This is what happens when you put, to use Dienekes' words, "Communists, Maoists, and assorted loonies" in power. Of course, the same thing would happen if you put neo-fascists in power. Europe never learns.

I think that Germany learned its lesson in that regard - probably more than any other country. Germany is one of the few countries in Europe that does not have any sizeable far-right or far-left party today.

Yetos
10-07-15, 15:47
THE WEATHER IN GREECE

it seems like a cloud is over,
HEat is high enough and Humidity is raised
not a good time for elections,
Syriza might split to 2 parts, light left and radical left
soon we know,
elections start to show in the sky

it might rain, it might not,
the goverment seems divided and waits the 50% +1 tonight

nice weather to stay at home,

Kardu
10-07-15, 17:13
T
nice weather to stay at home,

And hope that the storm will miraculously pass by?.. :)

Yetos
10-07-15, 20:48
And hope that the storm will miraculously pass by?.. :)

can it be more MADhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#74579370)? :mad:

YES IT CAN :lmao:

neurosis and psychosis all over the land, :thinking:


waiting for :spiderman:

oriental
10-07-15, 21:42
May I add fuel to the fire? I know nothing about EU. Here goes:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/03/23/us-eurozone-greece-warships-analysis-idUSTRE62M1Q520100323

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/19/greece-military-spending-debt-crisis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_of_the_Hellenic_Army

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_decommissioned_ships_of_the_Hellenic_Navy

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/germans-question-contract-france-to-sell-frigates-to-greece-in-controversial-deal-a-792189.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/10895239/Greece-sues-for-7-billion-euros-over-German-submarines-that-have-never-sailed.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/9129234/EU-accused-of-hypocrisy-for-1-billion-in-arms-sales-to-Greece.html

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703636404575352991108208712

oriental
10-07-15, 21:49
Financiers like war or tensions as governments go into debt for defense and hates competition such as BRICS as they cut into their prophets (profits).

Yetos
10-07-15, 22:46
May I add fuel to the fire? I know nothing about EU. Here goes:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/03/23/us-eurozone-greece-warships-analysis-idUSTRE62M1Q520100323

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/19/greece-military-spending-debt-crisis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_of_the_Hellenic_Army

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_decommissioned_ships_of_the_Hellenic_Navy

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/germans-question-contract-france-to-sell-frigates-to-greece-in-controversial-deal-a-792189.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/10895239/Greece-sues-for-7-billion-euros-over-German-submarines-that-have-never-sailed.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/9129234/EU-accused-of-hypocrisy-for-1-billion-in-arms-sales-to-Greece.html

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703636404575352991108208712


The telegraph post are good enough to show who is corrupted more

Garrick
11-07-15, 00:42
I think that Germany learned its lesson in that regard - probably more than any other country. Germany is one of the few countries in Europe that does not have any sizeable far-right or far-left party today.

In ex YU things were pretty good while country had high economic growth. But when the economy began to fall communists tried to cover up the situation. However, it was not possible, and nationalists and extremists have began to chafe. Economic decline was the trigger for extremisms. But Yugoslav federation can be good school for important lecturers how system can functioning and have results under certain conditions.

Germans have good economic situation and extremists have no chance. However in some other countries situation is more difficult.

It is clear that in this conditions some changes in Eurozone are necessary. What is needed is stronger leadership, better control and mechanisms including new institutions. Monetary union is not enough, possible banking and fiscal union are path. Banking union is necessary to enable the financial sector to support growth. Fiscal union is necessary to ensure that fiscal policies are fully aligned with the requirements of single currency. And it cannot be enough. Maybe long term solution is political union, creating European federation (what is much larger system than ex Yugoslav federation).

Sirius
11-07-15, 01:11
I believe that a great people as the Greek are, will have a good future, sooner or later.

PS.

(Hi, everyone... I am new in the forum) ;)

ElHorsto
11-07-15, 01:39
European politicians, not mentioning the rest of people.

Sure, but euro politicians are 90% in the 'yes' camp.

Angela
11-07-15, 01:58
I hold no brief for the loons in Athens with their posters of Mao and Karl Marx on the wall, but their actions have exposed what some people have known for years: the Eurozone was flawed from its inception.

It's either a case of a complete failure to foresee consequences, and a lack of understanding of the economic realities of some of the constituent governments on the part of the people who created it, or...it's been a rigged shell game for years.

Let's assume for the moment that it wasn't stupidity. If that's the case, it's all about markets. Promote a Eurozone and a single currency under the guise of European "unity" when you never wanted real unity at all, and just wanted to lower trade barriers, and create a common currency so that you could more easily flood other countries with your goods, and make their goods more expensive in non-European markets. Let countries into the Eurozone even if you have to let them cook the books, and not just because you want to keep them out of the hands of the Russians, but because it's another market. When countries lose jobs because their exports are now too expensive, loan them money which they can then use to create government jobs or for pensions so that people still have Euros to buy your goods. Extend maturities so the interest piles up and up so that even if they default you've actually already been paid your principal many times over. Continue to give the bailouts so that these countries can continue to buy your products. Then cry about how none of it is your fault.

Is that better or worse than a case of a lot of supposedly intelligent people, economists a lot of them, having absolutely no clue as to the clear and foreseeable consequences of their actions? Why was it only some British leaders who didn't drink the kool-aid and who saw the dangers?

Maybe it really was cluelessness and not a desire to economically dominate Europe no matter what happened to other countries. What else could explain the refusal to write off part of the debt?

The Wall Street Journal sees it, and they're no loony leftists.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB12204705985553474620604581090363281823134

"That the creditors are now governments rather than banks will likely cushion the financial market’s reaction to Sunday’s vote. But one lesson of history is that interest reductions and extended maturities have seldom, if ever, been enough to resolve a debt crisis.
Having studied debt defaults in the 1930s of governments with official creditors and the 1980s of governments with private creditors, Ms. Reinhart concluded that the eurozone’s “extend-and-pretend” strategy never cuts it.

The “restructuring to end all restructurings” always required creditors to take a loss on the face value of their debts, she said. That means explicit losses, sooner or later, for other eurozone taxpayers.

The question in Greece is: How much?"


A poster in the comments section who's obviously worked in the financial sector:

"I remember working at a large bank during the 1980s debt crisis. The banks took the hit and did so quickly with massive write-offs. I think 1986 and 1987 were the big years. Citibanjk was especially hard hit. Then they all moved on.

The European creditors would do well to do the same."

It's clear to anyone who can do elementary arithmetic that a country of 11 million can never repay this debt.

This article is also interesting:
http://www.businessinsider.com/greece-referendum-result-and-the-meaning-of-debt-2015-7

As was pointed out in the article, "Before the referendum was ever held, The IMF's own assessment of Greek debt (http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/scr/2015/cr15165.pdf), states: "Coming on top of the very high existing debt, these new financing needs render the debt dynamics unsustainable ..."

Yet they wouldn't write off any of the debt? This kind of rigidity of thinking has no business in business to coin a phrase. It's not supposed to be personal. I think either they've come to believe their own propaganda, or they've so inflamed their own populaces that now they don't know how to back down.

It's as if everyone has forgotten how capitalism is supposed to work. When you issue loans, it's a RISK, as the article points out.

"There is another key fact that the Greeks are keenly aware of (but that everyone else has forgotten). This debt was initially owed to private-investment banks, such as Goldman Sachs (http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/greek-debt-crisis-how-goldman-sachs-helped-greece-to-mask-its-true-debt-a-676634.html). But the IMF and the European Central Bank (ECB) made the suicidal decision to let those private banks transfer that debt to EU institutions and the IMF to "rescue" Greece. As Business Insider reported back in April, former ECB president Jean-Claude Trichet insisted that the debt transfer take place (http://uk.businessinsider.com/cigi-paper-says-ecb-president-trichet-blocked-imf-debt-relief-to-greece-2015-4):
The ECB president "blew up," according to one attendee. "Trichet said, 'We are an economic and monetary union, and there must be no debt restructuring!'" this person recalled

Had Trichet made the opposite decision — and left the Greek debt with Goldman et al — then Sunday's vote would be a footnote rather than a headline in history. "Goldman Sachs takes a bath on Greek debt." Who cares? Goldman shareholders and clients, surely. But it would not have triggered a crisis at the heart of the EU."

It should be noted that Goldman had to eat half the debt, but they should have lost it all.

I've been saying for years on this forum and to anyone who would listen that the Euro and the Eurozone has been a disaster for a lot of European countries. Nothing that has happened has changed my mind. The entire set up was flawed, and the deck was stacked against certain countries. Their own stupid leaders and their refusal to adopt market reforms did the rest.
[/LEFT]

See: The Euro was a big mistake and Greece is paying for it.
http://www.vox.com/2015/6/30/8868973/euro-greece-crisis-mista

LeBrok
11-07-15, 05:21
I believe that a great people as the Greek are, will have a good future, sooner or later.

PS.

(Hi, everyone... I am new in the forum) ;)
Welcome to Eupedia Sirius.

bicicleur
11-07-15, 08:14
In ex YU things were pretty good while country had high economic growth. But when the economy began to fall communists tried to cover up the situation. However, it was not possible, and nationalists and extremists have began to chafe. Economic decline was the trigger for extremisms. But Yugoslav federation can be good school for important lecturers how system can functioning and have results under certain conditions.

Germans have good economic situation and extremists have no chance. However in some other countries situation is more difficult.

It is clear that in this conditions some changes in Eurozone are necessary. What is needed is stronger leadership, better control and mechanisms including new institutions. Monetary union is not enough, possible banking and fiscal union are path. Banking union is necessary to enable the financial sector to support growth. Fiscal union is necessary to ensure that fiscal policies are fully aligned with the requirements of single currency. And it cannot be enough. Maybe long term solution is political union, creating European federation (what is much larger system than ex Yugoslav federation).

ex YU could not survive economic crisis

Germany can survive an economic crisis and prosper. It is not by coincidence that Germany have a good economic situation, it is something Germans created themselves.

So what changes are needed? Does all Europe have to apply the German system?
Well it seems obvious Greek - and other European - people don't want it. At the same time they think they are entitled to the same prosperity like the Germans.
So I think a unified Europe is utopia.
Now the Greek parliament has accepted the Tsipras plan. At the same time it shows how divided Greece is about this. There are several dissidents in Tsipras own party Syriza.
I thing the EU Eurozone might accept Tsipras plan - we'll know by monday.
But I'm not optimistic about the future. I expect Greece to take only half measures. I think within 5 or 10 years this history will repeat itself.

ElHorsto
11-07-15, 09:14
For now it looks like Tsipras came under big pressure (media, press campaign, ...) so that he tilt. He is willing to break his promises from the elections and to ignore the referendum result. It is most straightforward to assume that this was the reason for Varoufakis' preemtive resignation, smart guy that he is. Yes, the drama and delayed filing of insolvency probably will continue for more years.

Sile
11-07-15, 09:29
For now it looks like Tsipras came under big pressure (media, press campaign, ...) so that he tilt. He is willing to break his promises from the elections and to ignore the referendum result. It is most straightforward to assume that this was the reason for Varoufakis' preemtive resignation, smart guy that he is. Yes, the drama and delayed filing of insolvency probably will continue for more years.

When will the Greek people tell Tsipras they vote out of the EU, he is playing with fire..............Molotov cocktails, here we go

ElHorsto
11-07-15, 09:38
When will the Greek people tell Tsipras they vote out of the EU, he is playing with fire..............Molotov cocktails, here we go

Or eventually Golden Dawn will win elections.

ElHorsto
11-07-15, 10:00
This is what happens when you put, to use Dienekes' words, "Communists, Maoists, and assorted loonies" in power. Of course, the same thing would happen if you put neo-fascists in power. Europe never learns.

I would kindly disagree. These 'loonies' were elected because of the braindead austerity and delayed filing of insolvency. It was so easily predictable that it makes be almost believe it was a plan where Syriza is part of it. Most historians agree that the pointless austerity of Reichskanzler Brüning paved the way for the nazis. This can still happen anywhere else, not only in Europe. It only depends on the extent of suffering.

Kardu
11-07-15, 12:13
In ex YU things were pretty good while country had high economic growth. But when the economy began to fall communists tried to cover up the situation. However, it was not possible, and nationalists and extremists have began to chafe. Economic decline was the trigger for extremisms. But Yugoslav federation can be good school for important lecturers how system can functioning and have results under certain conditions.

Germans have good economic situation and extremists have no chance. However in some other countries situation is more difficult.

It is clear that in this conditions some changes in Eurozone are necessary. What is needed is stronger leadership, better control and mechanisms including new institutions. Monetary union is not enough, possible banking and fiscal union are path. Banking union is necessary to enable the financial sector to support growth. Fiscal union is necessary to ensure that fiscal policies are fully aligned with the requirements of single currency. And it cannot be enough. Maybe long term solution is political union, creating European federation (what is much larger system than ex Yugoslav federation).

So called "extremism" (usually defined from the centrist liberal standpoint) does not necessarily imply bad economic situation.

Angela
11-07-15, 14:08
I would kindly disagree. These 'loonies' were elected because of the braindead austerity and delayed filing of insolvency. It was so easily predictable that it makes be almost believe it was a plan where Syriza is part of it. Most historians agree that the pointless austerity of Reichskanzler Brüning paved the way for the nazis. This can still happen anywhere else, not only in Europe. It only depends on the extent of suffering.

I was referring to the reports that the government is investigating and harassing opposition people, El Horsto. It's typical of a far left regime as much as of a far right regime. This is Europe's history for the last more than 100 years; lurching from one extreme to the other. Britain is the only country that has managed to keep somewhat of an even keel.

They are loonies and incompetents because all they're doing, effectively, is saying "We're not going to take this anymore." We want to keep paying all the government employees who are our political cronies, and keep paying all the pensions. The fact that money can't just be printed, but must be backed by value which is produced seems to be a foreign concept to them. I've had the same problem with my children, but they were children, and they grew out of it. This Greek government has no plan for an orderly exit from the Euro, no plan for market oriented economic reforms, no plan for restructuring their economy, nothing, only a desire for the money to keep falling from the sky to pay for everything. Now, after precipitating this whole crisis, there are indications they may fold like a house of cards. It's absolutely criminal behavior.

That doesn't mean that I hold with any of this clap-trap that it's because they're lazy or choose to live in a poor country. Has anyone ever been to Greece? Where are the rich, productive flat fields of north/central Europe? Where are the nice coal reserves? Or the oil and natural gas? How would Scotland be doing without them? Greece, like Italy, can't even build nuclear reactors for power because they're sitting on fault lines. There's either a singular lack of knowledge in the EU about the challenges some European countries face, or a willful blindness.

It is extraordinarily difficult to create a prosperous economy when you have to import not only your food, but all the natural resources to use in factories, and also the fuel to power them. Meanwhile, as, for example, with Italy, which has relied upon ingenuity and design and a reputation for high quality goods to add "value" to the raw materials it has to import, the fact that the Euro makes its goods so expensive has been killing them. Add to that the fact that countries like China, which pays their workers coolie wages and provides no benefits, is mass-producing junk that imitates the real thing, and guess what, people are starting to be happy with the junk.

Do most people in some parts of Europe really not understand that one of the reasons for making early retirement and pensions so attractive was so that young people could actually get one of the scarce jobs available? The fact that who got them was dependent on party cronyism and corruption is a whole other issue.So is the fact that the package may have been too attractive. Even with all of that there is 25% youth unemployment in some of these countries. Ever wonder why the railroads, for example, have so many unnecessary employees, making them totally insolvent? It's to provide jobs. Leftist ideology doesn't help. You can't run a prosperous business if you can't fire incompetent people. You can't guarantee people lifetime secure jobs. You can't smother the growth of business by excessive paper work and regulation. You have to offer incentives to companies and people to set up shop in your country and produce wealth. You can't tax your way to prosperity. Look at Hollande. Tax the rich at 90% and what happens? Capital flees and your revenues go down. How many times does it have to happen before people get it? So, the ideology, the corruption, just make a bad situation even worse.

If I also hear one more time about how hard some people in Europe work, I may barf. I've taken a look at hours worked per year, and you're all pikers compared to the American worker. We've also carried you in terms of defense for the last 50 years. Start paying for your own and let's see how you compare then.

You might actually be on your own pretty soon, depending on our own political trajectory, and we may wind up faltering economically because, in my opinion, we've been led by an empty suit for the last almost seven years, and our own loony left is busily trying to ensure that we too adopt the failed policies that are ravaging some countries in Europe. Greece's economy is the size of our state of South Carolina. Wait till California falls if you want to see turmoil in markets, or when our trillion dollar debt falls due.

As to how counter-productive overly stringent austerity measures can be to an economy struggling to get out of a depression, as well as the dire political and social consequences, I totally agree with you.

Sorry, El Horsto, this rant wasn't directed at you. I'm out of this thread and discussing this matter. There's just such rampant stupidity and hypocrisy on all sides that it's just infuriating.

Maleth
11-07-15, 15:02
This is only the introduction to the Drama. We will just have an intermission and the crescendo's are yet to arrive. Please note that Tsipras during his speech before the vote in parliament said that his battle is not over. I will leave it up to you to decipher to what that means but it means a great deal.

ElHorsto
11-07-15, 15:51
I was referring to the reports that the government is investigating and harassing opposition people, El Horsto.


I see. I'm still hesitant to believe everything what these journalists claim, as they can be part of certain campaigns for particular interests. Note that Greece is owned by a few families, and ask yourself whether they support the current government.



It's typical of a far left regime as much as of a far right regime. This is Europe's history for the last more than 100 years; lurching from one extreme to the other. Britain is the only country that has managed to keep somewhat of an even keel.


That's because Britain was (and still is?) an empire. An empire is an empire because it has vassals to whom it can export it's problems. Germany was no empire, and it went bankrupt many times. That's why Hitler actually adored Britain, he was jealous.



They are loonies and incompetents because all they're doing, effectively, is saying "We're not going to take this anymore." We want to keep paying all the government employees who are our political cronies, and keep paying all the pensions. The fact that money can't just be printed, but must be backed by value which is produced seems to be a foreign concept to them.


We print money all the time, it's called credit expansion, and nowadays we switched to blatant "quantitative easing". I'm no advocate of this, just saying.



I've had the same problem with my children, but they were children, and they grew out of it. This Greek government has no plan for an orderly exit from the Euro, no plan for market oriented economic reforms, no plan for restructuring their economy, nothing, only a desire for the money to keep falling from the sky to pay for everything. Now, after precipitating this whole crisis, there are indications they may fold like a house of cards. It's absolutely criminal behavior.

That doesn't mean that I hold with any of this clap-trap that it's because they're lazy or choose to live in a poor country. Has anyone ever been to Greece? Where are the rich, productive flat fields of north/central Europe? Where are the nice coal reserves? Or the oil and natural gas? How would Scotland be doing without them? Greece, like Italy, can't even build nuclear reactors for power because they're sitting on fault lines. There's either a singular lack of knowledge in the EU about the challenges some European countries face, or a willful blindness.

It is extraordinarily difficult to create a prosperous economy when you have to import not only your food, but all the natural resources to use in factories, and also the fuel to power them. Meanwhile, as, for example, with Italy, which has relied upon ingenuity and design and a reputation for high quality goods to add "value" to the raw materials it has to import, the fact that the Euro makes its goods so expensive has been killing them. Add to that the fact that countries like China, which pays their workers coolie wages and provides no benefits, is mass-producing junk that imitates the real thing, and guess what, people are starting to be happy with the junk.

Do most people in some parts of Europe really not understand that one of the reasons for making early retirement and pensions so attractive was so that young people could actually get one of the scarce jobs available? The fact that who got them was dependent on party cronyism and corruption is a whole other issue.So is the fact that the package may have been too attractive. Even with all of that there is 25% youth unemployment in some of these countries. Ever wonder why the railroads, for example, have so many unnecessary employees, making them totally insolvent? It's to provide jobs. Leftist ideology doesn't help. You can't run a prosperous business if you can't fire incompetent people. You can't guarantee people lifetime secure jobs. You can't smother the growth of business by excessive paper work and regulation. You have to offer incentives to companies and people to set up shop in your country and produce wealth. You can't tax your way to prosperity. Look at Hollande. Tax the rich at 90% and what happens? Capital flees and your revenues go down. How many times does it have to happen before people get it? So, the ideology, the corruption, just make a bad situation even worse.

If I also hear one more time about how hard some people in Europe work, I may barf. I've taken a look at hours worked per year, and you're all pikers compared to the American worker. We've also carried you in terms of defense for the last 50 years. Start paying for your own and let's see how you compare then.

You might actually be on your own pretty soon, depending on our own political trajectory, and we may wind up faltering economically because, in my opinion, we've been led by an empty suit for the last almost seven years, and our own loony left is busily trying to ensure that we too adopt the failed policies that are ravaging some countries in Europe. Greece's economy is the size of our state of South Carolina. Wait till California falls if you want to see turmoil in markets, or when our trillion dollar debt falls due.

As to how counter-productive overly stringent austerity measures can be to an economy struggling to get out of a depression, as well as the dire political and social consequences, I totally agree with you.

Sorry, El Horsto, this rant wasn't directed at you. I'm out of this thread and discussing this matter. There's just such rampant stupidity and hypocrisy on all sides that it's just infuriating.

I see no rant. All I see is a mix of various vague thoughts which are all somewhat true, but your main point is to blame the new government for all of this.
Did Syriza create the debt problem, or is it the result of the debt problem because of loonies before them?

Garrick
11-07-15, 16:15
ex YU could not survive economic crisis

Germany can survive an economic crisis and prosper. It is not by coincidence that Germany have a good economic situation, it is something Germans created themselves.

So what changes are needed? Does all Europe have to apply the German system?
Well it seems obvious Greek - and other European - people don't want it. At the same time they think they are entitled to the same prosperity like the Germans.
So I think a unified Europe is utopia.


Of course, people in any country can stay in current state if they deny to accept and implement change. But no eternally.

Linking for bad Status quo can only making things worse, changes sooner or later, will happen in one way or another.

All Europe can learn from German and other successful economies in Euro zone, and why not, they are role models and leaders.

If systemic change and introducing new institutions can solve situation for better, why it is utopia. I think something different, we speak about novelty, something new to be built, term utopia is different, it is society which posses perfect qualities.

LeBrok
11-07-15, 17:46
I hold no brief for the loons in Athens with their posters of Mao and Karl Marx on the wall, but their actions have exposed what some people have known for years: the Eurozone was flawed from its inception.

It's either a case of a complete failure to foresee consequences, and a lack of understanding of the economic realities of some of the constituent governments on the part of the people who created it, or...it's been a rigged shell game for years.
In a sense that we can't build perfect things. Is plight of Greece different from plight of Detroit? They are both in single currency unions and problems stem from bad economy and unbalanced budgets.



The “restructuring to end all restructurings” always required creditors to take a loss on the face value of their debts, she said. That means explicit losses, sooner or later, for other eurozone taxpayers.

The question in Greece is: How much?"
Exactly. The tough decisions on EU part should have been taken in 2008. However letting it bankrupt back then could have pulled the world into deeper recession. From economic and markets perspective, EU can afford Greek failure now more than in the past.



"There is another key fact that the Greeks are keenly aware of (but that everyone else has forgotten). This debt was initially owed to private-investment banks, such as Goldman Sachs (http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/greek-debt-crisis-how-goldman-sachs-helped-greece-to-mask-its-true-debt-a-676634.html). But the IMF and the European Central Bank (ECB) made the suicidal decision to let those private banks transfer that debt to EU institutions and the IMF to "rescue" Greece. As Business Insider reported back in April, former ECB president Jean-Claude Trichet insisted that the debt transfer take place (http://uk.businessinsider.com/cigi-paper-says-ecb-president-trichet-blocked-imf-debt-relief-to-greece-2015-4):
The ECB president "blew up," according to one attendee. "Trichet said, 'We are an economic and monetary union, and there must be no debt restructuring!'" this person recalled As I said above, it was a bad time to let Greece go. There was also a philosophy to make sure no big companies fail to drag everybody into a depression. Either it was a right or wrong philosophy, Greece was in similar predicament. Situation was very eerie back then and nobody was brave enough to go into unknown. From economic point of view it might be a good time for EU to make a decision about Greece now. From Greeks point of view, they might have been better going bankrupt good few years ago.

LeBrok
11-07-15, 17:48
When will the Greek people tell Tsipras they vote out of the EU, he is playing with fire..............Molotov cocktails, here we go
That's what I predicted few days ago when Greeks were dancing in the street after referendum.

LeBrok
11-07-15, 17:55
They are loonies and incompetents because all they're doing, effectively, is saying "We're not going to take this anymore." We want to keep paying all the government employees who are our political cronies, and keep paying all the pensions. The fact that money can't just be printed, but must be backed by value which is produced seems to be a foreign concept to them. I've had the same problem with my children, but they were children, and they grew out of it. This Greek government has no plan for an orderly exit from the Euro, no plan for market oriented economic reforms, no plan for restructuring their economy, nothing, only a desire for the money to keep falling from the sky to pay for everything. Now, after precipitating this whole crisis, there are indications they may fold like a house of cards. It's absolutely criminal behavior.
For that reason I can't say definitely that Greece should go bankrupt and start afresh. Without good economic reform they would have been in same difficult place in 20 years.

Yetos
11-07-15, 18:54
Guys tomorrow I will give you some views that will never seen

Bicycler Elhorsto and Angela got good to the point

Elhorsto +1 for you understand the geopolitical and geostrategical, instead the stupid voices I heard many times for 'hard working'
I gave you 1 date 21/04/1967 did you find it?
now I give you Pythia plan 1 2 3 no4 just did not happened, Σχεδιο Πυθια or the 'PRISM" for Greece as alternative
http://media5.picsearch.com/is?rtuk2fjHUnU3htrioeUdXEY_cCrj4QlHLXF6jeJie3c&height=228


and a photo
http://media1.picsearch.com/is?Xu8SM0Mbc5VAOAHXORpIxdz100Vt9FyuoUqhmbti3ow&height=265

connect them, to see who Angela (Mercel not Eupedia's) hates more,

Schauble has lost, οhe realized it yesterday,
Angela realized it 1 weak before, and act correct,
he will gather his minions to one camp in this Euroworking Group to defencehttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#19171549) so to have little losses
and soon will surender,
Or Schauble HAS WON, HE MANAGE TO SAVE GOLDMAN SACHS, AND SAVE WESTERN WORLD AND USA FROM A TOTAL COLLAPSE, but not Germany, which stays in shrinking 'obey'dience,
although Deutschhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#59160229) must search the strange roll of a young guy with glasses, I think he was half Japan or Korean.
and why when Merkel goes to Serbia and Albania and promises EU entrance, same time Hungary is Building wall to 'secure borders'

Piketty won,
who is he? Tomas Piketty

and for those screamers who say Greece will go with Russia,
better overpass the ex-Communist effect,
and tell us, most Europe 'cools by the GazProm products' does that mean all Europe are with Russia??????

The roll of Greece,
you said it as pivotal, it is more, it is so dark, yet so bright,
served all, from USA to this person i can not remember his name, from Schauble to EU,
yet still untamed

I must said i find one 'smart' German, It is you, you have seen things behind, here and in Ukraine's case,


http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/useless.gif



Maybe we should write a thread on how EU saved Goldman Sachs through Greek crisis,

@ Lebrok
the far lefthttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#38224423) in Greece are 2 parties,
1 is the Russian
2 is the USA
radical Left as light left before are the American party,
Do not worry, CIA controls them fro 1960's, Robin ex CIA headquarters was in Greece to organise and finance them, :innocent:
Yes the above is 'Globalhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#68394658) Conspiracy' and not proven etc etc, only one photo from 1972 and this...
and I deny it my shelf :grin:

Yetos
11-07-15, 19:33
personally I am calm,

how can not to be,

those who see behind, they know,


Piketty won

LeBrok
11-07-15, 22:40
Of course, people in any country can stay in current state if they deny to accept and implement change. But no eternally.

Linking for bad Status quo can only making things worse, changes sooner or later, will happen in one way or another.

All Europe can learn from German and other successful economies in Euro zone, and why not, they are role models and leaders.

If systemic change and introducing new institutions can solve situation for better, why it is utopia. I think something different, we speak about novelty, something new to be built, term utopia is different, it is society which posses perfect qualities.
It is probably about time to separate politics from economy in general. After 100 years or more of experimentation we know what works what doesn't. Too much socialism never worked for a long run. I'm not sure why it is still tried? Recent examples are Greece and Venezuela to provide addition proofs that it doesn't work.

LeBrok
11-07-15, 22:42
@ Lebrok
the far lefthttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#38224423) in Greece are 2 parties,
1 is the Russian
2 is the USA

Nope, it is the Greeks, nobody from the outside. Stop blaming the world, look inside for problems and outside for solutions.

LeBrok
12-07-15, 07:53
Doesn't Tsipras look like a hypocrite now?

Yetos
12-07-15, 16:49
Doesn't Tsipras look like a hypocrite now?

no he was before Texas. now we know him,
another papandreou,

Angela
12-07-15, 18:16
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/business/international/greece-debt-crisis-euro.html?_r=0

I've been listening to all the talking heads on the Sunday news shows in the U.S. Conclusion is that the only lasting way out of this mess for Greece is growth and that severe austerity measures will make that highly unlikely. Somebody tell that to the Eurozone negotiators.

ElHorsto
12-07-15, 18:20
Nope, it is the Greeks, nobody from the outside. Stop blaming the world, look inside for problems and outside for solutions.

Greeks have their share of responsibiltiy. But when blaming Greeks we shouldn't spare also those who pushed Greece into the EURO trap in anticipation of "rescue" by our tax money and subsequent shopping spree as a measure of austerity, despite the many warnings.
We rightfully condemned the bankers who lend mortgages to home "owners", knowing that they have zero securities, causing the mortgage crisis and then blackmailing taxpayers by being "too big to fail". I see no reason to spare those who conspired with the greek elites. What once was called "too big to fail" is now called EURO.

ElHorsto
12-07-15, 18:45
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/business/international/greece-debt-crisis-euro.html?_r=0

I've been listening to all the talking heads on the Sunday news shows in the U.S. Conclusion is that the only lasting way out of this mess for Greece is growth and that severe austerity measures will make that highly unlikely. Somebody tell that to the Eurozone negotiators.

Isn't that what the 'looneys' are trying to explain all the time? (sorry, I couldn't resist)

The austerity is idiotic, because it spares the most corrupt networks and kills the remnants of healthy economy. Now as Germany seems to approach it's end of capacity+patience, US is aligning with Tsipras because they want Greece to remain in the EURO. Schäuble on the other hand wants to rip Greece out of the EURO for 5 years, which is once more devastating for Greece after it was in the EURO trap already for so long. He wants to stop wasting tax money, that's nice, but what then? I'm afraid that Merkel and Schäuble are facing a dilemma.

LeBrok
12-07-15, 19:01
Greeks have their share of responsibiltiy. But when blaming Greeks we shouldn't spare also those who pushed Greece into the EURO trap in anticipation of "rescue" by our tax money and subsequent shopping spree as a measure of austerity, despite the many warnings.
Do you mean that Greeks like children didn't know what they were doing?

ElHorsto
12-07-15, 19:26
Do you mean that Greeks like children didn't know what they were doing?

Not only Greeks.

Angela
12-07-15, 21:00
Isn't that what the 'looneys' are trying to explain all the time? (sorry, I couldn't resist)

The austerity is idiotic, because it spares the most corrupt networks and kills the remnants of healthy economy. Now as Germany seems to approach it's end of capacity+patience, US is aligning with Tsipras because they want Greece to remain in the EURO. Schäuble on the other hand wants to rip Greece out of the EURO for 5 years, which is once more devastating for Greece after it was in the EURO trap already for so long. He wants to stop wasting tax money, that's nice, but what then? I'm afraid that Merkel and Schäuble are facing a dilemma.

As numerous economists have pointed out, part of the debt should be written off. It's what's been done in the past and it's what makes the most sense. Most of the financial types I know propose that. They also think that austerity measures that are so stringent that they throw a country into a recession don't make any sense. This needs, and needed, a balanced approach. All this crew in Greece have proposed is a continuation of the same old system they've always had. I don't think Tsipras et al have any clue what on earth they're doing. It's as if we had elected the "Occupy Wall Street" crowd to run the country. I had to pass their encampment everyday, and they couldn't even organize toilets for themselves.

However, the rigidity and shortsightedness of thinking of Merkel and co. is beginning to rattle the financial people here. She's playing with fire. Greece's economy is too small to bring the world economy crashing down, but they think she's mistaken if she believes this won't effect the rest of Europe. If nothing else it's exposed the flaws in the Eurosystem, and more countries could eventually follow suit.

Has anyone else used the phrase "loony left"? Maybe I should copyright it if no one else has used it; in addition to being so descriptive, it has such a nice "ring" to it. I just love alliteration:). Someone could do a political cartoon of their offices and title it "The Loony Bin"!

http://carolynyeager.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/syriza%20office%20in%20greece.jpg?itok=wRXG6a8R

Yetos
12-07-15, 21:05
guys

do we understand that through Greece, EU saved G-Sachs?
do we understand after Liehman, a collapse of G-Sachs?
do we understand that deposits 'fly' from Greece-Cyprus to West Europe?

if we understand, then we know where tax pay money go

LeBrok
12-07-15, 21:12
guys

do we understand that through Greece, EU saved G-Sachs?
do we understand after Liehman, a collapse of G-Sachs?
do we understand that deposits 'fly' from Greece-Cyprus to West Europe?

if we understand, then we know where tax pay money go
If Greeks had decent economy, they wouldn't need to invent "creative accounting" to cheat their way into the debt. Fix your economy first and you have a great future, either with Euro or Drachma.

ElHorsto
12-07-15, 21:25
As numerous economists have pointed out, part of the debt should be written off. It's what's been done in the past and it's what makes the most sense. Most of the financial types I know propose that. They also think that austerity measures that are so stringent that they throw a country into a recession don't make any sense. This needs, and needed, a balanced approach. All this crew in Greece have proposed is a continuation of the same old system they've always had. I don't think Tsipras et al have any clue what on earth they're doing. It's as if we had elected the "Occupy Wall Street" crowd to run the country. I had to pass their encampment everyday, and they couldn't even organize toilets for themselves.


I wasn't attending the negotiations, neither do I know which internal obstacles there are in Greece. Thus I avoid judging Tsipras too rigidly, but for now he doesn't seem to be worse compared to the others before. A least he makes a point that the current path was wrong.



However, the rigidity and shortsightedness of thinking of Merkel and co. is beginning to rattle the financial people here. She's playing with fire. Greece's economy is too small to bring the world economy crashing down, but they think she's mistaken if she believes this won't effect the rest of Europe. If nothing else it's exposed the flaws in the Eurosystem, and more countries could eventually follow suit.


Yes, the economic significance of Greece is one of the minor problems. It's significance is in a complex of finance, intra-EU calamities, geopolitics, laws and principles. Other south-euro countries are also closely watching what is happening to Greece, because it might affect them later. Germany's credibility is also at stake. EU wants to push centralization. Positions in the equity markets, etc.

LeBrok
12-07-15, 21:25
However, the rigidity and shortsightedness of thinking of Merkel and co. is beginning to rattle the financial people here. She's playing with fire. Greece's economy is too small to bring the world economy crashing down, but they think she's mistaken if she believes this won't effect the rest of Europe. If nothing else it's exposed the flaws in the Eurosystem, and more countries could eventually follow suit.


There will be other failed financially states or cities, it is just a matter of when and who. It is important to have prevention and protection against built into the system. Greeks is the first one and a learning curve.
Fiscal audits of all levels of EU governments should be in place. Perhaps also, EU should have powers to adjust economic activities/regulations and social spending to make sure things can't go totally messed up.
Secession plans for difficult members, protecting EU.

LeBrok
12-07-15, 21:36
Yes, the economic significance of Greece is one of the minor problems. It's significance is in a complex of finance, intra-EU calamities, geopolitics, laws and principles. Other south-euro countries are also closely watching what is happening to Greece, because it might affect them later.
There are interesting implications in case Greece is kicked out. If Greece do well economically by themselves, though with limited credits and no production economy it will be almost impossible, this can encourage others to drop of the burden of debt, go bankrupt and secede. However, if they are stuck in slow economic growth, trade barriers, traveling and working visas to EU, lower standard of living, this will work as a deterrent and keep all in EU. This all might need 5 year window to be clear to others after Greek secession. If Greece leaves now, I don't think any other would follow yet. It will start wait and see game.

Yetos
12-07-15, 22:39
If Greeks had decent economy, they wouldn't need to invent "creative accounting" to cheat their way into the debt. Fix your economy first and you have a great future, either with Euro or Drachma.

sory
i do not want to offend you,
but you are total ignorant in what is going on here
better listen what others in forum say,
than screaming.
how you can have descent economy?
search the oriental posts/links
you will understand better
Deutsch Schauble past with Greek Tsochatzopoulos past have something common, search it.
and with yelding offences you only create a negative image of you

search Christoforakos case and why germany is not giving him to Greece to be judged

GREECE could not have descent economy
TRY TO UNDERSTAND IT
SEARCH PYTHIA PLAN σχεδιο Πυθια
an almost break up inside NATO

they plan to assasinate him
http://www.wikileaks-forum.com/anything-and-everything/8/greece-plan-pythia-1and8243-for-assassinating-pm-karamanlis/8990/
the man who create the phone net has been found hanged before the effort


and yes we are quilty for voting politicians who cared about their own 'glory', and took stupid loans
but bankers came to us, although they knew how weak economy was, not even thinking the risk, why?

Yetos
12-07-15, 22:41
I wasn't attending the negotiations, neither do I know which internal obstacles there are in Greece. Thus I avoid judging Tsipras too rigidly, but for now he doesn't seem to be worse compared to the others before. A least he makes a point that the current path was wrong.



Yes, the economic significance of Greece is one of the minor problems. It's significance is in a complex of finance, intra-EU calamities, geopolitics, laws and principles. Other south-euro countries are also closely watching what is happening to Greece, because it might affect them later. Germany's credibility is also at stake. EU wants to push centralization. Positions in the equity markets, etc.

again +1 from me
you seem to be one of the few who see behind,
no matter your choice, or opinion is, +1

Yetos
12-07-15, 23:02
There are interesting implications in case Greece is kicked out. If Greece do well economically by themselves, though with limited credits and no production economy it will be almost impossible, this can encourage others to drop of the burden of debt, go bankrupt and secede. However, if they are stuck in slow economic growth, trade barriers, traveling and working visas to EU, lower standard of living, this will work as a deterrent and keep all in EU. This all might need 5 year window to be clear to others after Greek secession. If Greece leaves now, I don't think any other would follow yet. It will start wait and see game.

Tottaly wrong,
Pythia plan 4
Kissinger's plans stoped by a great EU dreamer,
search who to understand, EUgame of centralization

TRY TO UNDERSTAND IT,
GREECE IS THE BAIT
VICTIM IS ELSEWHERE

there can not be a 5 year out
is either out, either in,

bicicleur
12-07-15, 23:14
Isn't that what the 'looneys' are trying to explain all the time? (sorry, I couldn't resist)

The austerity is idiotic, because it spares the most corrupt networks and kills the remnants of healthy economy. Now as Germany seems to approach it's end of capacity+patience, US is aligning with Tsipras because they want Greece to remain in the EURO. Schäuble on the other hand wants to rip Greece out of the EURO for 5 years, which is once more devastating for Greece after it was in the EURO trap already for so long. He wants to stop wasting tax money, that's nice, but what then? I'm afraid that Merkel and Schäuble are facing a dilemma.

who is to blaim that the corruption is still there?
EU cannot dismantle corruption in Greece, it is the Greeks who have to do this, but they fail
that is how Greece became a bottomless pit without any perspective on recovery

if Obama wants to keep Greece in EU, I propose he uses some US taxmoney to grant Greece a loan

the longer this story lasts, the less options there will be left for Greece

bicicleur
12-07-15, 23:24
As numerous economists have pointed out, part of the debt should be written off. It's what's been done in the past and it's what makes the most sense. Most of the financial types I know propose that. They also think that austerity measures that are so stringent that they throw a country into a recession don't make any sense. This needs, and needed, a balanced approach. All this crew in Greece have proposed is a continuation of the same old system they've always had. I don't think Tsipras et al have any clue what on earth they're doing. It's as if we had elected the "Occupy Wall Street" crowd to run the country. I had to pass their encampment everyday, and they couldn't even organize toilets for themselves.

However, the rigidity and shortsightedness of thinking of Merkel and co. is beginning to rattle the financial people here. She's playing with fire. Greece's economy is too small to bring the world economy crashing down, but they think she's mistaken if she believes this won't effect the rest of Europe. If nothing else it's exposed the flaws in the Eurosystem, and more countries could eventually follow suit.

Has anyone else used the phrase "loony left"? Maybe I should copyright it if no one else has used it; in addition to being so descriptive, it has such a nice "ring" to it. I just love alliteration:). Someone could do a political cartoon of their offices and title it "The Loony Bin"!



Merkel has no choice.
Asking more money and leaving the old system in Greece intact is a recipe for more diseaster to come.
This is blackmail.
If you give in to this game, it won't last long before Portugal, Spain and even Italy will start to derail again.
Besides, Greek minimum wages and pensions are higher than in Eastern Europe, and Eastern European taxpayer would have to pay their share in the deal.
It's immoral.
If you go along in this game, it is the end of the Euro in the long run.

Obama is urging for a solution, but I don't think he won't risk American taxpayers money to give Greece a credit.
I think that says it all.

Yetos
12-07-15, 23:26
who is to blaim that the corruption is still there?
EU cannot dismantle corruption in Greece, it is the Greeks who have to do this, but they fail
that is how Greece became a bottomless pit without any perspective on recovery

if Obama wants to keep Greece in EU, I propose he uses some US taxmoney to grant Greece a loan

the longer this story lasts, the less options there will be left for Greece

+1 by me
another one who also understand and see behind or far,

although i can not answer to your question,
but our first fear here is not Grexit, we are not afraid Schauble,
is a war, and second is civil war or junda.

Vallicanus
12-07-15, 23:30
Merkel has no choice.
Asking more money and leaving the old system in Greece intact is a recipe for more diseaster to come.
This is blackmail.
If you give in to this game, it won't last long before Portugal, Spain and even Italy will start to derail again.
Besides, Greek minimum wages and pensions are higher than in Eastern Europe, and Eastern European taxpayer would have to pay their share in the deal.
It's immoral.
If you go along in this game, it is the end of the Euro in the long run.

Obama is urging for a solution, but I don't think he won't risk American taxpayers money to give Greece a credit.
I think that says it all.

Amen to all that.

ElHorsto
12-07-15, 23:42
There are interesting implications in case Greece is kicked out. If Greece do well economically by themselves, though with limited credits and no production economy it will be almost impossible, this can encourage others to drop of the burden of debt, go bankrupt and secede. However, if they are stuck in slow economic growth, trade barriers, traveling and working visas to EU, lower standard of living, this will work as a deterrent and keep all in EU. This all might need 5 year window to be clear to others after Greek secession. If Greece leaves now, I don't think any other would follow yet. It will start wait and see game.

I agree with your analysis. It would be different from for example Iceland. They dropped the burden of debt after a brief dispute with Britain and the Netherlands and a brief episode of chaos. They made a referendum like "do we wanna pay the debt?". The crowd answered "NO!", and they got away with it. The old elite is gone too as a side effect. I'm not up-to-date, but I heard that Iceland still struggles somewhat, but there is a future now. Usually it isn't so easy for a country to default like Iceland.
If Greece leaves the EURO, cuts debt, or whatever, it will not lose it's problems soon I think. Especially I think cutting debt without leaving the EURO is close to meaningless, because they still have to fight the same hopeless fight against the big old economies, where the only remaining economy is flourishing corruption. The EURO is like a centrifugal force (Latin Monetary Union (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_Monetary_Union) crashed for the same reason).

ElHorsto
13-07-15, 00:10
who is to blaim that the corruption is still there?


To blame are primarily those who promised that it would miraculously disappear.
Corruption in Greece is created by greeks of course, but it is well known and ages old. And from the Latin monetary union we know that the EURO can not work like this anyway, but I will not go that far for now. The difficulty to compete inside EURO by normal economy makes corruption more attractive, or even necessary to avoid direct competition. You know how politicians are.

It is like giving your credit card to a known alcoholic, and then after two years being surprised that he comes back as an indebted alcoholic. Are you then not to blame for your irresponsibility?
In case of EURO it is actually much worse, because it is tax payer's money whom is put on risk. And to make things even worse, it is being spent for delaying filing of insolvency. In civil right one would go to jail.



EU cannot dismantle corruption in Greece, it is the Greeks who have to do this, but they fail
that is how Greece became a bottomless pit without any perspective on recovery


What a surprise! (sorry for sarcasm, no offense)

I believe you are overestimating Tsipras' power, and underestimating greek elites in the background, who are among the richest in the world. Then there are the ordinary voters. Tsipras seems to be under immense pressure too. But that's just my speculation.



if Obama wants to keep Greece in EU, I propose he uses some US taxmoney to grant Greece a loan

the longer this story lasts, the less options there will be left for Greece

Schäuble gave an appropriate answer already. Things are getting interesting.

Angela
13-07-15, 00:34
http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jul/12/greek-debt-crisis-eu-leaders-meeting-cancelled-no-deal-live

Angela
13-07-15, 01:01
I just went to twitter. Who knows how representative this is of public opinion, though...

"Angela Merkel has done more today to destroy the European project than all euroskeptic right-wing parties combined.."

Paul Krugman (I should add that I'm not normally a fan of his)
"Meanwhile In Scotia ‏@MeanwhileScotia (https://twitter.com/MeanwhileScotia) 1h1 hour ago (https://twitter.com/MeanwhileScotia/status/620344913549479936) Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman calls it... #ThisIsACoup

(https://twitter.com/hashtag/ThisIsACoup?src=hash)
"Suppose you consider Tsipras an incompetent twerp. Suppose you dearly want to see Syriza out of power. Suppose, even, that you welcome the prospect of pushing those annoying Greeks out of the euro.

Even if all of that is true, this Eurogroup list of demands (https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/620272062771429377/photo/1) is madness. The trending hashtag ThisIsACoup (https://twitter.com/hashtag/ThisIsACoup?src=hash) is exactly right. This goes beyond harsh into pure vindictiveness, complete destruction of national sovereignty, and no hope of relief. It is, presumably, meant to be an offer Greece can’t accept; but even so, it’s a grotesque betrayal of everything the European project was supposed to stand for.
Can anything pull Europe back from the brink? Word is that Mario Draghi is trying to reintroduce some sanity, that Hollande is finally showing a bit of the pushback against German morality-play economics that he so signally failed to supply in the past. But much of the damage has already been done. Who will ever trust Germany’s good intentions after this?
In a way, the economics have almost become secondary. But still, let’s be clear: what we’ve learned these past couple of weeks is that being a member of the eurozone means that the creditors can destroy your economy if you step out of line. This has no bearing at all on the underlying economics of austerity. It’s as true as ever that imposing harsh austerity without debt relief is a doomed policy no matter how willing the country is to accept suffering. And this in turn means that even a complete Greek capitulation would be a dead end.
Can Greece pull off a successful exit? Will Germany try to block a recovery? (Sorry, but that’s the kind of thing we must now ask.)
The European project — a project I have always praised and supported — has just been dealt a terrible, perhaps fatal blow. And whatever you think of Syriza, or Greece, it wasn’t the Greeks who did it."


"£50bn Greek assets to be handed to fund controlled by Schauble via KfW This is a criminal suggestion. He should be arrested."

(https://twitter.com/MeanwhileScotia/status/620344913549479936/photo/1)"You should have seen Schauble's first draft: "Place the 50bn euros in a black bag and throw it over the bridge at midnight"

"My guess is that Merkel and the troika have inadvertently just primed the detonator for a #Brexit (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Brexit?src=hash) in 2017".



I should add that these are comments from English speaking countries.

LeBrok
13-07-15, 02:53
I agree with your analysis. It would be different from for example Iceland. They dropped the burden of debt after a brief dispute with Britain and the Netherlands and a brief episode of chaos. They made a referendum like "do we wanna pay the debt?". The crowd answered "NO!", and they got away with it. The old elite is gone too as a side effect. I'm not up-to-date, but I heard that Iceland still struggles somewhat, but there is a future now. Usually it isn't so easy for a country to default like Iceland.
It is not that easy to go totally bankrupt by a country and start afresh. Usually there is some debt remaining, and some debt servicing put on hold. At least it gives countries some breathing room and helps economy recover. In case of Iceland there is about 80% of GDP debt left, or over 200% when debt obligations of defaulted banks are added. Here is a nice article about their current situation.
Island froze billions of foreign capital deposits in their banks and regulates exchange rate of Krona. Now they are afraid to lift these artificial instruments, or the capital will fly away and Krona deflate farther.
There are also unclear consequences of lawsuits in courts around the globe of institutions trying to recover lost defaulted founds, and going to continue for decades to come.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/34ab12fc-0d9b-11e4-815f-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3fj7ZfWyd

One of worst consequences for Greeks going bankrupt will be lose of working privileges in EU. How many Greeks works abroad, a million?

LeBrok
13-07-15, 02:58
Greeks, the hardest working people in Europe with over 2,000 hours a year. Netherlands have a bit over 1,400 hours.
http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=LEVEL#

LeBrok
13-07-15, 02:59
Tottaly wrong,
Pythia plan 4
Kissinger's plans stoped by a great EU dreamer,
search who to understand, EUgame of centralization

TRY TO UNDERSTAND IT,
GREECE IS THE BAIT
VICTIM IS ELSEWHERE

there can not be a 5 year out
is either out, either in,

Yetos, what is your solution for Greece? What would you do?

Vallicanus
13-07-15, 09:21
Greeks, the hardest working people in Europe with over 2,000 hours a year. Netherlands have a bit over 1,400 hours.
http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=LEVEL#

You need to work "smart" like the Dutch.

I also suspect the Greeks only turn up to work but achieve little.

bicicleur
13-07-15, 10:41
looks like the Greeks are presented a tough choice
accept EU mandate over Greece and a 87 billion € lifeline or drawn
what drawn means nobody realizes yet, but the quelines in front of the 60 € cash machines last few days in Greece were an apetizer

and Tsipras took a U-turn
he plays games, but he is smart
I wonder whether he'll survive

Maleth
13-07-15, 11:44
I dont know why people keep saying the Greeks the Greeks the Greeks.The Syriza party of Tsipras won 36% of the Greek vote and not 100. So what ALL the Greeks have to do with it?. People who vote do not get crash courses on Economics and can easily vote on vague promises such as a vow to stop all austerity measures, which sounds like sweet music to the less informed men and women who have a right to vote as much as any professional. Tsipras looked bright and trust worthy and probably no one asked but 'how would you do that sir?' and driven by blind faith. But the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Now we see the consequences.

Now the Syriza honeymoon is over as the Syriza miracle did not happen, and the stubborn negotiations right up to the wire have been going on for just over 5 months, (its not like there was no time) But then Drama will not be Drama without crescendos and being saved in the last minute. It will kill its hollywood type of effect and has no meaning if the Adrenalin does not flow. Also a non sense referendum with a result that brought more hardship to the Greek people.

The winners are some of the opposition groups, that if they were voted in the first place none of this would have happened. On the other hand this will serve a lesson to all the same minded people in other countries that started raffling their feathers. It seems like election time is close, even if like referenda they do come with a financial cost that could be well spent somewhere else.

Maleth
13-07-15, 11:59
and Tsipras took a U-turn
he plays games, but he is smart
I wonder whether he'll survive

He fought till the end, causing an earthquake. The U-turn was imposed on him. Now he seems to have become a convert. Converts do happen but no one knows if its real and that's the main issue. He should not be there anymore. He tried his luck and failed. Time for a new Chapter.

Kardu
13-07-15, 13:23
"But of course, the ultimatum Greece now faces also demonstrates the disregard of the euro system for any right to national sovereignty Greece may have as a member of the monetary union. It exposes the European project as a power grab by unelected elites at the European Commission and at the European Central Bank. For the first time ever, the whole world is realizing that not only does the European Union require a gradual fading away of national sovereignty as economic harmonization advances, it also involves an abrupt, violent, and complete loss of national sovereignty on the occasion that a country’s economy stumbles and requires assistance."

https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/07/12/the-ugly-heart-of-the-european-project-greece-grexit-germany

Maleth
13-07-15, 15:18
..... on the occasion that a country’s economy stumbles and requires assistance."

https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/07/12/the-ugly-heart-of-the-european-project-greece-grexit-germany

assistance? 3 bailouts in 5 years? to a country that besides was eligible to other billions (like some others EU member states) to upgrade the infrastructure to reach 1st world level. This is the ugly heart of the European project this opinion is talking about? All countries took heed to the necessary austerity measures, including ones that have taken off from even more difficult times. Austerity means do not pay people for being unproductive or over priced government projects just for a few to benefit, but that the expense can reflect a more realistic work - output scenario. How does that help the economy exactly?. Austerity does not stifle business incentives to create more work, be more productive with the right price.They are two very different issues There are markets to tap and the opportunities change from decade to decade and have to keep a sharp eye on the look out, and create the right environment for it to happen. Austerity has nothing to do with real growth and it does NOT stand in its way. And by the way, we will never really know how much cash is hidden under the mattress and under the tiles. You might be surprised that Greece will rise like a phoenix in no time.

bicicleur
13-07-15, 16:19
I just went to twitter. Who knows how representative this is of public opinion, though...

"Angela Merkel has done more today to destroy the European project than all euroskeptic right-wing parties combined.."

Paul Krugman (I should add that I'm not normally a fan of his)
"Meanwhile In Scotia ‏@MeanwhileScotia (https://twitter.com/MeanwhileScotia) 1h1 hour ago (https://twitter.com/MeanwhileScotia/status/620344913549479936) Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman calls it... #ThisIsACoup

(https://twitter.com/hashtag/ThisIsACoup?src=hash)
"Suppose you consider Tsipras an incompetent twerp. Suppose you dearly want to see Syriza out of power. Suppose, even, that you welcome the prospect of pushing those annoying Greeks out of the euro.

Even if all of that is true, this Eurogroup list of demands (https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/620272062771429377/photo/1) is madness. The trending hashtag ThisIsACoup (https://twitter.com/hashtag/ThisIsACoup?src=hash) is exactly right. This goes beyond harsh into pure vindictiveness, complete destruction of national sovereignty, and no hope of relief. It is, presumably, meant to be an offer Greece can’t accept; but even so, it’s a grotesque betrayal of everything the European project was supposed to stand for.
Can anything pull Europe back from the brink? Word is that Mario Draghi is trying to reintroduce some sanity, that Hollande is finally showing a bit of the pushback against German morality-play economics that he so signally failed to supply in the past. But much of the damage has already been done. Who will ever trust Germany’s good intentions after this?
In a way, the economics have almost become secondary. But still, let’s be clear: what we’ve learned these past couple of weeks is that being a member of the eurozone means that the creditors can destroy your economy if you step out of line. This has no bearing at all on the underlying economics of austerity. It’s as true as ever that imposing harsh austerity without debt relief is a doomed policy no matter how willing the country is to accept suffering. And this in turn means that even a complete Greek capitulation would be a dead end.
Can Greece pull off a successful exit? Will Germany try to block a recovery? (Sorry, but that’s the kind of thing we must now ask.)
The European project — a project I have always praised and supported — has just been dealt a terrible, perhaps fatal blow. And whatever you think of Syriza, or Greece, it wasn’t the Greeks who did it."


"£50bn Greek assets to be handed to fund controlled by Schauble via KfW This is a criminal suggestion. He should be arrested."

(https://twitter.com/MeanwhileScotia/status/620344913549479936/photo/1)"You should have seen Schauble's first draft: "Place the 50bn euros in a black bag and throw it over the bridge at midnight"

"My guess is that Merkel and the troika have inadvertently just primed the detonator for a #Brexit (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Brexit?src=hash) in 2017".



I should add that these are comments from English speaking countries.

Paul Krugman is fulminating again today against the 50 billion privitsation fund under EU mandate.
He forgets to mention this privitisation was a condition for the 2010 Greece bailout, and it never happened despite numerous Greek promises.
If EU does not take matters in hand here, this part of the deal will never happen.
Furthermore Paul Krugman forgets to mention the 80 billion new loan Greece is offered.
Paul Krugman is well aware of all this, but he prefers to tell only half the trueth.
No more Paul Krugman for me please.

Angela
13-07-15, 16:59
Some more analysis:


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/14/wo...debt-deal.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/14/world/europe/greece-debt-deal.html)

http://www.unz.com/mhudson/the-finan...omment-1005371 (http://www.unz.com/mhudson/the-financial-attack-on-greece/#comment-1005371)

http://www.unz.com/mhudson/why-greeces-debt-is-illegal/

http://blogs.channel4.com/paul-mason...acy-loser/4155 (http://blogs.channel4.com/paul-mason-blog/greece-wins-euro-debt-deal-democracy-loser/4155)

bicicleur
13-07-15, 17:26
time will first tell whether Greeks accept this plan and later whether it succeeds
in the mean time papers and newsrooms will be full of speculations and mostly biassed comments

Angela
13-07-15, 17:44
time will first tell whether Greeks accept this plan and later whether it succeeds
in the mean time papers and newsrooms will be full of speculations and mostly biassed comments

How could I have failed to realize that anyone who disagrees with your (the German) position is biased, whereas your position is obviously totally objective and economically sound?

LeBrok
13-07-15, 17:47
You need to work "smart" like the Dutch.

I also suspect the Greeks only turn up to work but achieve little.
Efficiency is very important, and so is having right businesses.

LeBrok
13-07-15, 17:58
I dont know why people keep saying the Greeks the Greeks the Greeks.The Syriza party of Tsipras won 36% of the Greek vote and not 100. So what ALL the Greeks have to do with it?. I guess on base of some majority and general trend. There were few parties in power through last couple of decades, but none was able to turn Greece around. Also Tsipras got 60% support in referendum.



People who vote do not get crash courses on Economics and can easily vote on vague promises such as a vow to stop all austerity measures, which sounds like sweet music to the less informed men and women who have a right to vote as much as any professional. Tsipras looked bright and trust worthy and probably no one asked but 'how would you do that sir?' and driven by blind faith. But the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Now we see the consequences. That's the part of democratic system which needs to be reformed. People don't understand issues and consequences they are voting on.

Sile
13-07-15, 20:42
I guess on base of some majority and general trend. There were few parties in power through last couple of decades, but none was able to turn Greece around. Also Tsipras got 60% support in referendum.

That's the part of democratic system which needs to be reformed. People don't understand issues and consequences they are voting on.

Greece will go to the polls again in October, so a new government can cancel any agreements that the current Government has made.

Best for Greece is as I stated before ...to leave the EU

Why Italy and Spain support Greece...........because If Greece leaves the EU , investors will have lost their money, they will be in a panic and will quickly demand their owed money from Italy and Spain immediately, these states cannot repay at the moment , ..................so, their support of Greece is only for self interest.
Italy and its feudal centralist system of government needs to disappear and become federated like Germany or USA to survive

Maleth
13-07-15, 20:43
I guess on base of some majority and general trend. There were few parties in power through last couple of decades, but none was able to turn Greece around. Also Tsipras got 60% support in referendum.

indeed however the referendum (while not making any kind of sense and only acted as a smoke screen that fades very quickly) was not very straight forward and highly ambiguous. It would have been to the tune as saying would you like to pay taxes or not? Guess what I would have voted :)


That's the part of democratic system which needs to be reformed. People don't understand issues and consequences they are voting on.

Parties these days hire professionals to advise on how to promote the best image to the general public. What to wear how they look and what to say and when and buzz lines people love so much. The parties with best finances normally do best irrelevant to the issues. Then the U Turns and all unkept promises can be blamed on a multitude of factors normalyl fall in 'beyond our control' card.

Garrick
13-07-15, 20:54
LeBrok
Nobody has against your analysis, for example I read from word to word your messages.

But let the members from Greece, who objectively know the terrain, to express their views which can be contrary to yours.

It is logical that people on the ground, and people who watching from the side, see the situation differently, especially when the problem is very complex; take in account this situation concerns people in the terrain most.

Yetos
13-07-15, 21:09
Guys it will not work,

it is just a roll the problem to near future,

told ya, GS through Greece manage to get paid multiple times the money it gave,


TO UNDERSTAND ALL
the Greek loan is total 36 to most and 60 to some other billion E,
the rest are just birth and small letters
Greece already paid 120 billion E
since you know, how much paid EU citizens to GS and banks
DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE TRAP?

I will use something from M friedman,
IN THE FREEhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#96540824) WORLD I HAVE THE RIGHT AND FREEDOM TO SLEEP AND DREAM THAT ONE DAY I WILL BE RICH.
Now tell me, how me or a Greek, or to expand more a EU citizen can be rich when he has to pay GS while he took no money?
what Schaublnd and IMF manage is just this, they blame Greece or other etc etc, but not bankers, and forced Eu citizens to pay them

in Communism i was a slave, cause due to 'equality' I could not dream, they told me what to dream, and my dream should be the same 'equal' with all peoplehttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#56432770)
in modern 'Rothschild' Capitalismhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#79919395) I am still a slave, since my dream is how to get off the wieght others put me,
how i will pay back 10 tims the money others took,
so as a 'homo Sapiens' i will use my brain not on how i will pay the money I never took, but on how to get rid fast of the weight, so to have time to dream that i will be rich
it is self preserve instict 'ενστικτο συντηρησης',

we destroy how many countries, why not some more banksters who although know the risk, continue this policy,
if EU did not manage to stop these money vultures, events like the NAPOLEON or WW1 or WW2 will continue even with EU


to expand more
all European are protesting, even in this Forum
NO money to Greece, No solidarity, No Help, etc etc,
but do they know that they pay GS or the rest banksters?
now the case of Greece was first time in EU,
and that creates a substractum to any other country after Greece,
but does not create a substractum to any money vulture to give 'loans' to countries,
so what if tomorrow Latvia or luxembourg or England comes to such position?
we will need again the 'good guy' Angela? and the 'ungly guy' Scauble to 'fight the 'bad guy'?
we are leaving money vultures to 'spread toxic loans' and then EU citizens to pay,
Told ya Schauble won the fight but lost the war,
cause he did not 'punish' the other bad guy, the bankster.
and what will be tomorrow if another country comes in such position?
again haircuthttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#43620830) of depositshttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#38516001)?
or rest EU citizens will pay again the Bankster?

and to pass to the other site,
WITH LITTLE MONEY, you can make geopolitical and geostrategical games, earn divine fortune, make a country work for you,
just find the right man (politician) for the jobhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#91384423).
Sorry guys but Europe did not learn from the last 3 centuries history,
and EEC for the nations has become EU for Banksters.

PS
bankster did not target the Diogenes (Διογενης) cause 'ουκ ανhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#51920298) λαβεις παρα του μη εχοντος' (nothing to take from the one who has nothing)
Bankster target the fat victim with weak character


PS2
IF A STATE IS WEAKER THAN A BANK
I DO NOT WANT A EU ID CARD,
I WANT A BANK ID CARD,
maybe in future id cards write to wich bank we own, or to wich we have deposits, instead of our state nation etc,
GO ON DESTROY STATES, SAVE BANKS

bicicleur
13-07-15, 21:55
How could I have failed to realize that anyone who disagrees with your (the German) position is biased, whereas your position is obviously totally objective and economically sound?

l'économie, c'est l'art de prédire le passé

Yetos
13-07-15, 22:20
Guys last days all my posts are 'hanged' in forum, but dissapear and appear whenever and if,
what is going on?
could it be my internet provider?

Piro Ilir
13-07-15, 22:23
Greeks, the hardest working people in Europe with over 2,000 hours a year. Netherlands have a bit over 1,400 hours.
http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=LEVEL#
Come on, do you really believe this kind of propaganda. They go to pension on 55 years old

Yetos
13-07-15, 22:29
l'économie, c'est l'art de prédire le passé


Χρημα πολλοι εμισησαν, Δοξα ουδεις
many hated money, non the Glory

milleniums people survived with no money
freedom and dream are stronger

Piro Ilir
13-07-15, 22:35
They still giving money to Greece. Unbelievable. All those money is going to be spend without any profit. The Greece will still have fun with German money. Bravo Greeks, well done , you are smarter than all

Piro Ilir
13-07-15, 22:47
Guys last days all my posts are 'hanged' in forum, but dissapear and appear whenever and if,
what is going on?
could it be my internet provider?
Who knows, maybe the Schauble spies [emoji2] are working. .....
I am kidding ,kidding

Yetos
13-07-15, 22:53
Who knows, maybe the Schauble spies [emoji2] are working. .....
I am kidding ,kidding

naahhhh

it is ISIS/DAESH spies,

Angela
13-07-15, 22:53
Come on, do you really believe this kind of propaganda. They go to pension on 55 years old

If you had bothered to investigate the economy you might have discovered that people were sometimes encouraged to go on early retirement because there are not enough jobs to go around and this frees some up for younger people.

Likewise, unlike Germany with its large factories employing lots of heavily unionized workers who have negotiated very short work weeks, a very large proportion of Greeks own their own small businesses. If you were familiar with that dynamic you would know that small business owners never work a 35 or 40 hour work week. Nor do owners of small farms (or ranches for that matter). That's not to say that there wasn't cronyism involved with benefits being given to party regulars, at least if Greece is similar to other areas with such problems.

Things are usually more complicated than the propoganda and group think that certain countries feed their people.

Piro Ilir
13-07-15, 22:59
Χρημα πολλοι εμισησαν, Δοξα ουδεις
many hated money, non the Glory

milleniums people survived with no money
freedom and dream are stronger
Yes [emoji6], but Holland saved you guys. But you are still on the time to deny the agreement made by Tsipras on the parliament. Carry on. All we will see how it's gonna happen. Reject the deal . Refuse it.

[emoji629]

Garrick
13-07-15, 23:26
They still giving money to Greece.

Piro
You love to speak about Greece but what's happened in Albania?

Possible ISIL Infiltration in Lazarat Village

http://www.independent.mk/articles/18996/Albania+Possible+ISIL+Infiltration+in+Lazarat+Vill age

Piro Ilir
13-07-15, 23:28
If you had bothered to investigate the economy you might have discovered that people were sometimes encouraged to go on early retirement because there are not enough jobs to go around and this frees some up for younger people.

Likewise, unlike Germany with its large factories employing lots of heavily unionized workers who have negotiated very short work weeks, a very large proportion of Greeks own their own small businesses. If you were familiar with that dynamic you would know that small business owners never work a 35 or 40 hour work week. Nor do owners of small farms (or ranches for that matter). That's not to say that there wasn't cronyism involved with benefits being given to party regulars, at least if Greece is similar to other areas with such problems.

Things are usually more complicated than the propoganda and group think that certain countries feed their people.
Anxhela, I am sorry, but you are wrong about Greek economy. Probably you don't have information. In the past in Greece were a lot of jobs to do. Many Albanian emigrants worked there, because the Greeks refused to work . I am very informed about the Greek economy. I know from my friends working there, that Greeks don't like to work and they have a high standard of life. Why Greeks should have big pensions. All this anti German propaganda is disgusting. Germans are really hardworking people. Greece is fooling around with all Europe. I am sorry for my words but I am trying to be sincere . Thei need to reduce in maximum their pensions. To bring at 70 their pension age . To reduce in maximum their military budget. To reduce the administration salaries. And in the end they should sell some of their islands [emoji57]. Angela, I respect your opinion on the other threads, but here you are wrong, very wrong.


[emoji629]

LeBrok
14-07-15, 00:41
LeBrok
Nobody has against your analysis, for example I read from word to word your messages.

But let the members from Greece, who objectively know the terrain, to express their views which can be contrary to yours.

It is logical that people on the ground, and people who watching from the side, see the situation differently, especially when the problem is very complex; take in account this situation concerns people in the terrain most.
No problemo. Though outsiders tend to have more objective view, and people involved often are too emotional to think straight.

LeBrok
14-07-15, 00:43
Guys last days all my posts are 'hanged' in forum, but dissapear and appear whenever and if,
what is going on?
could it be my internet provider?
I found one or two in moderated box, got them unstuck.

LeBrok
14-07-15, 00:50
Yetos, we know you have a very strong opinion about genesis of this Greek crisis. Can you tell us what is the best solution for Greece in your mind?

Angela
14-07-15, 01:37
Anxhela, I am sorry, but you are wrong about Greek economy. Probably you don't have information. In the past in Greece were a lot of jobs to do. Many Albanian emigrants worked there, because the Greeks refused to work . I am very informed about the Greek economy. I know from my friends working there, that Greeks don't like to work and they have a high standard of life. Why Greeks should have big pensions. All this anti German propaganda is disgusting. Germans are really hardworking people. Greece is fooling around with all Europe. I am sorry for my words but I am trying to be sincere . Thei need to reduce in maximum their pensions. To bring at 70 their pension age . To reduce in maximum their military budget. To reduce the administration salaries. And in the end they should sell some of their islands [emoji57]. Angela, I respect your opinion on the other threads, but here you are wrong, very wrong.


[emoji629]

Maybe you haven't read the whole thread. You certainly haven't read any of the articles to which I linked.

I excoriated the Tsipras government and him personally. I think I may have unwittingly offended some members by calling leftist economics "loony" or silly, but that's what I believe and it slipped out. I apologize for any offense.

If anything, I am a fiscal conservative. I believe that Greece should privatize its industries, employers should have the power to fire unproductive workers, incentives should be put in place to attract investment, and on and on. Also, the gamesmanship engaged in by Tsipras and his government without any real plan for an exit strategy was criminal, as I repeatedly said.

However, I have always thought, and now think, that the Eurozone was poorly conceived and flawed, and that countries would surrender their sovereignty to it, which would eventually mean surrendering their sovereignty to banks and financial institutions, at their peril. I also have always thought, and now think, that certain countries would be in better shape had they retained their own currencies. They would have been in much better shape had they not only retained their own currencies, but also instituted market oriented reforms.

This brings us to the debt itself. There has been double dealing and dishonesty on all sides from the very beginning. The Greek government was dishonest in hiding liabilities in order to meet entrance requirements. The investment bank was dishonest in helping them do it. The EU officials were dishonest in knowing it and looking the other way, and I don't buy that it was all because they didn't want Greece to fall into the Russian sphere. They wanted it because its always been about markets and flooding these countries with the goods produced by certain nations. Are some Europeans so deluded by the propaganda that they don't see it?

There's also a whole debate among economists as to what to do when nations go into debt. Yes, spending has to be brought under control, but the most important thing is to encourage growth, because the deficits would start to melt away in the face of growth. How much "austerity" is too much and will not only retard growth, but, perhaps, plunge a country into a depression? It's a delicate balancing act, and frankly I believe the Eurozone leaders have failed in this regard. Certainly, as has also been pointed out by numerous economists, lowering the interest rate and extending the payment period has NEVER worked. Piling more debt on top of the existing debt means that a country, in this case Greece, will never be able to pay it back. The face amount has to be reduced. I've yet to see any independent economist who doesn't advocate that.

I honestly don't totally understand what is going on in the minds of the leaders of the EU. I tend to decry and mock conspiracy theorists, but I am starting to wonder. This isn't sound business. Capitalism isn't a morality play. It's about getting the best deal. It's about keeping your eye on the ball, not plundering and punishing an entire country of human beings, for God's sake. .

I'm not even going to address all the B.S. in the founding documents of the Eurozone about European unity and helping one another grow as a community of nations. That was obviously pablum for the masses. That's never what it was about. That anyone could still believe that after this weekend is a testimony to ignorance, in my opinion, and the power of stereotypes and propaganda.

I sincerely hope that the British, for whom I have admiration, take heed and vote no in the coming referendum. The best thing for certain countries would be to negotiate an orderly exit from the Euro and institute more and deeper market reforms. Unfortunately, I don't think they have the ***** to do the first or the knowledge of how to manage an economy to do the second. If Eurozone populations think that there was or is now any real desire to create a "United States" of Europe, I think you're living in la la land.

Speaking of stereotypes and propaganda...I find it amusing in a rather grim way that you would be dealing in stereotypes when your own country can be and has been so easily stereotyped.

Will Europeans ever be able to look at any single phenomenon, economic, political, cultural whatever, without doing so through the prism of idiotic tribal allegiances and hostilities? These are the times I'm glad my parents took me the ****out of Europe.
As for my posts here on this thread and everywhere else, I try to examine every topic and issue with as much information as I can gather, and as much reason as I can muster, and, to the best of my ability, I try to divorce myself of any ethnic or personal considerations when I'm discussing history or genetics, or, in this case, economics. That's the way I was trained personally and professionally. It doesn't mean I'm always right, of course.

LeBrok
14-07-15, 04:31
Maybe you haven't read the whole thread. You certainly haven't read any of the articles to which I linked.

I excoriated the Tsipras government and him personally. I think I may have unwittingly offended some members by calling leftist economics "loony" or silly, but that's what I believe and it slipped out. I apologize for any offense.

If anything, I am a fiscal conservative. I believe that Greece should privatize its industries, employers should have the power to fire unproductive workers, incentives should be put in place to attract investment, and on and on. Also, the gamesmanship engaged in by Tsipras and his government without any real plan for an exit strategy was criminal, as I repeatedly said.

However, I have always thought, and now think, that the Eurozone was poorly conceived and flawed, and that countries would surrender their sovereignty to it, which would eventually mean surrendering their sovereignty to banks and financial institutions, at their peril. I also have always thought, and now think, that certain countries would be in better shape had they retained their own currencies. They would have been in much better shape had they not only retained their own currencies, but also instituted market oriented reforms.

This brings us to the debt itself. There has been double dealing and dishonesty on all sides from the very beginning. The Greek government was dishonest in hiding liabilities in order to meet entrance requirements. The investment bank was dishonest in helping them do it. The EU officials were dishonest in knowing it and looking the other way, and I don't buy that it was all because they didn't want Greece to fall into the Russian sphere. They wanted it because its always been about markets and flooding these countries with the goods produced by certain nations. Are some Europeans so deluded by the propaganda that they don't see it?

There's also a whole debate among economists as to what to do when nations go into debt. Yes, spending has to be brought under control, but the most important thing is to encourage growth, because the deficits would start to melt away in the face of growth. How much "austerity" is too much and will not only retard growth, but, perhaps, plunge a country into a depression? It's a delicate balancing act, and frankly I believe the Eurozone leaders have failed in this regard. Certainly, as has also been pointed out by numerous economists, lowering the interest rate and extending the payment period has NEVER worked. Piling more debt on top of the existing debt means that a country, in this case Greece, will never be able to pay it back. The face amount has to be reduced. I've yet to see any independent economist who doesn't advocate that.

I honestly don't totally understand what is going on in the minds of the leaders of the EU. I tend to decry and mock conspiracy theorists, but I am starting to wonder. This isn't sound business. Capitalism isn't a morality play. It's about getting the best deal. It's about keeping your eye on the ball, not plundering and punishing an entire country of human beings, for God's sake. .

I'm not even going to address all the B.S. in the founding documents of the Eurozone about European unity and helping one another grow as a community of nations. That was obviously pablum for the masses. That's never what it was about. That anyone could still believe that after this weekend is a testimony to ignorance, in my opinion, and the power of stereotypes and propaganda.

I sincerely hope that the British, for whom I have admiration, take heed and vote no in the coming referendum. The best thing for certain countries would be to negotiate an orderly exit from the Euro and institute more and deeper market reforms. Unfortunately, I don't think they have the ***** to do the first or the knowledge of how to manage an economy to do the second. If Eurozone populations think that there was or is now any real desire to create a "United States" of Europe, I think you're living in la la land.

Speaking of stereotypes and propaganda...I find it amusing in a rather grim way that you would be dealing in stereotypes when your own country can be and has been so easily stereotyped.

Will Europeans ever be able to look at any single phenomenon, economic, political, cultural whatever, without doing so through the prism of idiotic tribal allegiances and hostilities? These are the times I'm glad my parents took me the ****out of Europe.
As for my posts here on this thread and everywhere else, I try to examine every topic and issue with as much information as I can gather, and as much reason as I can muster, and, to the best of my ability, I try to divorce myself of any ethnic or personal considerations when I'm discussing history or genetics, or, in this case, economics. That's the way I was trained personally and professionally. It doesn't mean I'm always right, of course.
Great summary Angela and I agree with most. Except perhaps disintegrating EU. In this highlighted instance I would like to go back to situation of Detroit in US. Would you agree that the best solution for Detroit would be seceding from US Union, becoming independent and issue own currency. After all Detroit can complain that it didn't receive adequate help from the Union to protect against bankruptcy. State of Illinois has 320 billion dollars debt with population comparable to Greece. Should they think about quitting the Union, or anyone in big financial trouble?

Angela
14-07-15, 06:17
Great summary Angela and I agree with most. Except perhaps disintegrating EU. In this highlighted instance I would like to go back to situation of Detroit in US. Would you agree that the best solution for Detroit would be seceding from US Union, becoming independent and issue own currency. After all Detroit can complain that it didn't receive adequate help from the Union to protect against bankruptcy. State of Illinois has 320 billion dollars debt with population comparable to Greece. Should they think about quitting the Union, or anyone in big financial trouble?

There's no need to leave the union, because the U.S. government will bail them out one way or another. That's the difference between a real "union" and the pretend one in Europe. These are the differences between the two systems. (Rather than just rephrasing, I'll just quote. :))

"Common banking policies. US banks are regulated at the federal level, and the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation guarantees banks in all 50 states. American regulators don't allow a bank in one state to hold too much of that state's debt. As a result, American states aren't vulnerable to local bank failures the way European countries are. A string of bank failures in Texas would mostly be a problem for the US government, not the government of Texas. Conversely, if an American state has a fiscal crisis, consumers don't need to worry that this will imperil the soundness of local banks.

Common fiscal policies. In the United States, the federal government is responsible for a large share of overall government spending. That's not true in Europe, where the European Union's budget is much smaller than the combined budgets of EU member nations. This means that states are not as vulnerable to macroeconomic swings as European nations are.

"Retirees in Florida are paid out of the US Social Security system, not the Florida social security system "So if Florida gets into trouble, the retirees won't lose their benefits."

America's common tax and spending policies help to even out differences in states' economies. When a state is booming, the federal government collects more tax revenue from residents and businesses there. At the same time, demand for some government benefits declines. When a state's economy does poorly, the opposite occurs: tax revenue falls and federal benefit payments increase. These financial flows help to prevent the kind of extreme economic divergence we see in Europe right now.


A common labor market: When some parts of the US have higher unemployment rates than others, people move to states where opportunities are better. Once again, this prevents extreme differences between state unemployment rates, contributing to an integrated national economy.

In theory, all those unemployed Greek people could move to Germany in search of work. But language and cultural barriers make that difficult in practice, and few Greek people have done so.

The euro could work with "ever closer union" — but that won't be easy

The currency's problems are by no means limited to Greece. Other countries in the Southern Europe, including Spain, Italy, and Portugal, have been suffering through years of unnecessarily high unemployment due in part to ECB policies.

And similar problems are going to crop up every time the continent experiences an economic downturn. The strongest economies will lobby against strong stimulus due to inflation fears, which will push weaker economies into unnecessarily long and severe recessions. Because most other European countries don't have Greek levels of debt, this may never produce a Greek-style financial crisis. But years of unnecessarily high unemployment is a humanitarian disaster in its own right.

The best way to avoid this outcome is the one we use in the United States: deeply integrate the economies of Eurozone nations so that a sharp divergence between European countries becomes impossible.


The EU has been working on proposals (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/24/eurozone-reform-germany-idUSL8N0ZA4FK20150624) to better integrate the European banking system, though it's a long way from completing the job.

Developing a set of EU-wide taxing and spending policies — the counterparts to the US income tax and federally-funded benefits such as Social Security and Medicaid — will be a much bigger challenge. Every year, taxpayers in rich US states effectively subsidize federal benefits for people in poorer states; taxpayers in rich European countries are understandably wary of adopting a similar set of policies in Europe.

True labor market integration will be the hardest challenge of all, because here the problems are about language and culture more than government policy. The EU isn't going to have a shared language any time soon, so workers may never move around the EU as freely as they move around the US today.

But progress toward closer union has been slow, and there's reason to doubt whether it will ever be achieved. And if a more integrated Europe is out of reach, then the euro is a terrible idea that will impose needless suffering on millions of people for years to come. "

Conclusion: As long as the European Union remains a loose confederation of independent nations, the euro will be an economic menace

(http://www.vox.com/2015/6/30/8868973/euro-greece-crisis-mistake#)There is no way I believe that Germany or many other Euro countries really want the kind of union where when Detroit defaults, for example, the federal taxpayers still foot the bill so that the SSA benefits still get paid, the state still gives out food stamps, eventually the state or federal government come in and build everything up again. They want the benefits, but not the burdens.

We actually had many of the same kind of problems during the days of the Articles of Confederation, but they proved unworkable just like the Euro is unworkable, and so they were scrapped, and the founders drafted the Constitution of the United States, which still provides for some local controls but has an overlay of common banking, fiscal and labor policy on top of local ones. (The U.S. is still a republic and states and local municipalities still have power in ways that provinces and cities in a country like France do not.)

Part of the deal was that the debts of the individual states were absorbed by the new federal government. It was one of the more controversial elements but it had to be done.

Oh, he addresses the question of stimulus versus austerity too.

"Basic monetary theory says that when an economy is in a depression as severe as the one in Greece, the solution is aggressive monetary stimulus. So if you wanted to help Greece, you'd want to start printing more money in an effort to lower interest rates, boost demand, and bring down the country's unemployment rate. (The favorite stimulus of the American Republican party- Cut government spending, but put more money into circulation by cutting personal taxes. The favorite stimulus of the American Democratic Party-more government spending.)


On the other hand, if you were just focusing on the German economy, you'd reach the opposite conclusion. Germany's economy is already booming. The economy can't grow much faster than it already is. So more monetary stimulus will just produce inflation. You might even want to cut back to prevent the German economy from overheating.


The problem is that the ECB is responsible for both Greece and Germany — and 17 other countries as well. The right policy for Greece will be a disaster for Germany, and vice versa. Any policy the ECB picks will be either too tight for some European countries or too loose for others."

DuPidh
14-07-15, 06:54
Anxhela, I am sorry, but you are wrong about Greek economy. Probably you don't have information. In the past in Greece were a lot of jobs to do. Many Albanian emigrants worked there, because the Greeks refused to work . I am very informed about the Greek economy. I know from my friends working there, that Greeks don't like to work and they have a high standard of life. Why Greeks should have big pensions. All this anti German propaganda is disgusting. Germans are really hardworking people. Greece is fooling around with all Europe. I am sorry for my words but I am trying to be sincere . Thei need to reduce in maximum their pensions. To bring at 70 their pension age . To reduce in maximum their military budget. To reduce the administration salaries. And in the end they should sell some of their islands [emoji57]. Angela, I respect your opinion on the other threads, but here you are wrong, very wrong.


[emoji629]

You are partially wrong Amigo!
Being a Mexican who lives in America I have often heard Americans say: Blacks need no money since they don't know what to do with them. Its not actually a racist rant. Its a metaphoric way of expressing the need for quality education.
It means that without proper schooling system that teaches people to innovate and take businesses risks money is hard to come. Obviously their schools do not teach things. Skata schools.
They should disband their military altogether since its not mach for the Turkish army anyway. At least they save some money.
They should stop building churches in Albania and paying money to Albanian mercenaries who pose as Greeks so they would be able to save.
They should curb their appetite and open another hole in their belts.
They should take school seriously.
Respect for the moderator Angela for her understanding of European Union.

bicicleur
14-07-15, 08:21
The United States of Europe don't exist.
There are to many levels of regional governements and to many politicians.
The regional governments are the bread and butter of the upcoming politician.
And Europarliament is a very expensive retirement plan for the politicians.

Capitalism is wrong. Politics is worse.
But we need some kind of order to make the world go round.

Sile
14-07-15, 09:00
the EU is only delaying the inevitable by propping up the Greeks for the 4th time. next year or year after, we will have the same scenario.

The Integrity for Greeks is to leave the EU and not be enslaved to it.

Vallicanus
14-07-15, 09:43
If the EU seriously wants to be a respected unitary state it must break up the bigger nation states into smaller regional blocs.

Maleth
14-07-15, 09:46
The EU officials were dishonest in knowing it and looking the other way, and I don't buy that it was all because they didn't want Greece to fall into the Russian sphere. They wanted it because its always been about markets and flooding these countries with the goods produced by certain nations. Are some Europeans so deluded by the propaganda that they don't see it?

Im beginning to believe that allowing Greece into the EU and the Eurozone without any proper restructuring and manipulating criterias (with EU blessing unlike all other EU and eurozone countries which had to reform before being members) may well have been a real reason at the time.In two of his many cards Tsipras visited Russia on a number of occasions and also suggested joining the BRICS group. My wild guess is that would have thought by time Greece would have reformed itself economically by time but of course it seems like some Greek politicians acted like a spoiled privileged child. I could not believe Hollande saying that we have to remember that Greece is what made us what we are today, as if the EU owes it bail outs every 2 years no questions asked. Now I understand why some Greek politicians act like the spoiled rebellious children who puff and pound and stamp their feet if the do not get what they want. I sincerely could not believe my ears.


There's also a whole debate among economists as to what to do when nations go into debt. Yes, spending has to be brought under control, but the most important thing is to encourage growth, because the deficits would start to melt away in the face of growth. How much "austerity" is too much and will not only retard growth, but, perhaps, plunge a country into a depression? It's a delicate balancing act, and frankly I believe the Eurozone leaders have failed in this regard. Certainly, as has also been pointed out by numerous economists, lowering the interest rate and extending the payment period has NEVER worked. Piling more debt on top of the existing debt means that a country, in this case Greece, will never be able to pay it back. The face amount has to be reduced. I've yet to see any independent economist who doesn't advocate that.

An attitude that wealthy countries have to pay for poorer regions does not give any stimulation for growth. This is not an issue only on a country to country level. Even countries like Italy within its own regions have this issue with Northern regions having to sustain the South. Assistance yes, such as helping out with basic infrastructure and lay the foundations for a healthy economy, but if the healthy economy never materialise, then those who are giving the aid including the people in the region need to know why this is not happening identifying the reasons going to the rootcause and tackle accordingly and not simply sleep on it.



I sincerely hope that the British, for whom I have admiration, take heed and vote no in the coming referendum. The best thing for certain countries would be to negotiate an orderly exit from the Euro and institute more and deeper market reforms. Unfortunately, I don't think they have the ***** to do the first or the knowledge of how to manage an economy to do the second. If Eurozone populations think that there was or is now any real desire to create a "United States" of Europe, I think you're living in la la land.

No one forces anyone to join the Eurozone or the EU and no one forces to stay once they are in. Britian has been skeptic from the first years it has joined the Union (EEC at the time) since 1975 and a number of goverments (mainly conservatives) were anti EU by nature. Guess what? 2015 Britian is still Skeptic but still there. And More? Latest pols show over 60% of British favour EU union with Cameron on the YES to the EU side. Dont you think the Britts would have left by now? lets face it Iceland and Norway and Switzerland are not part of it and its no great tragedy really and everyone can leave if they want. Why dont they? In regards to Britian also note that the Scotts have made it clear that if Britian pull out they want to stay in and be part of the Union. So Britian alos has its own issues.


http://www.euronews.com/2015/06/02/scotland-s-sturgeon-raises-prospect-of-second-independence-referendum-if-uk/

The United states and the EU are completely two different things. The EU is not based on becoming one single country as the U.S. is. The EU has been flexible in implementing its terms. If it wasn't the case it would not have worked. Even countries that are not part of the EU but close have favorable terms and conditions. Joining the Eurozone is a choice even if part of the EU. The U.S. is a land of relatively recent migrants, the EU is a land of deep rooted histories and cultures. I am not under the impression that there is some burning desire for the EU to become a 'United States' of Europe and I sincerely hope it stays that way.


These are the times I'm glad my parents took me the ****out of Europe.

Wow! Good for you. Many many others are MORE then happy to be living in the most visited Continent in the world....just in case you had any doubt :grin:.

Maleth
14-07-15, 09:54
If the EU seriously wants to be a respected unitary state it must break up the bigger nation states into smaller regional blocs.

There was a referendum in Scotland and the No to separation won. How can the EU show respect by breaking it up?

Maleth
14-07-15, 09:56
The Integrity for Greeks is to leave the EU and not be enslaved to it.

They have the choice if they want and still in time.....