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oldeuropeanculture
02-07-15, 10:37
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A few weeks ago someone wrote this comment on my post about knobsticks:


"One of the knobsticks found in the Tollense River is actually made from blackthorn (sloe) wood (Prunus spinosa)! A remarkable resemblance to the Irish tradition. "


I had no idea what this person was talking about. I never heard of Tollense river before. So I decided to investigate the whole thing. What I uncovered during this investigation can prove to be one of the most important things I discovered so far, the missing piece of the jigsaw which links all the archaeological, linguistic, genetic and ethnographic data I have so far collected into a single picture. But I will talk about that in my next few posts. In this post I will tell you what I discovered about the Tollense river and the ancient battle which was fought on its banks around 1200 BC, and why I don't agree with the current official interpretation of the archaeological data from the site.


You can read more here:


http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/2015/07/tollense-battle.html

bicicleur
02-07-15, 12:24
I don't say your interpretation is per sé wrong, but I have 1 major and 1 minor remark :

Tin has a fingerprint, by chemical analyses we can find the origin of the ore from which the tin is extracted.
Hasn't this been done for the tin/bronze objects found on the site?
Very few bronze objects in Unétice culture were made with tin from the Ore Mountains, most of the tin came from Cornwall.
Unétice people probably have learned about bronze working from traders from the Wessex culture.
The Wessex elite owned cattle in Wessix, England and controlled the Cornwall tin mines.
They also controlled the Atlantic trade in amber, copper ore and tin.
They also traded in continental Europe, hence their contacts with Unetice peole.
The origin of the Wessix culture is Bell Beaker.

I don't think there were mounted archers 1200 BC. 1200 BC horses were used to pull warrior chariots in battle.
The first known mounted archers were the Scyths, around 700 BC. They used new, composite bows.

oldeuropeanculture
02-07-15, 13:54
Tin has a fingerprint, by chemical analyses we can find the origin of the ore from which the tin is extracted.
Hasn't this been done for the tin/bronze objects found on the site?

They did but apparently were not successful. I link to the article talking about the tin.


Unétice people probably have learned about bronze working from traders from the Wessex culture.

I would beg to disagree with this. Unetice culture is a direct continuation of Balkan Copper cultures. If we look at the distribution of ancient I2a dna in Europe we will see that they all cluster around the oldest copper mines and the Ore mountain copper and tin mine. Central Europe and the Amber route was their domain. And if you look at the current distribution of the I2a haplogroup still is.

I believe that Ore mountain predates Cornwall mines. At least this is what i could find. Can you point me to source saying that Cornwall mine predates Ore Mountain one?


I don't think there were mounted archers 1200 BC.

Well maybe we need to revisit this. There were obviously mounted warriors on the scene and from the ballistic analysis I believe that the bronze arrows were fired from a horseback...

bicicleur
02-07-15, 18:08
They did but apparently were not successful. I link to the article talking about the tin.



I would beg to disagree with this. Unetice culture is a direct continuation of Balkan Copper cultures. If we look at the distribution of ancient I2a dna in Europe we will see that they all cluster around the oldest copper mines and the Ore mountain copper and tin mine. Central Europe and the Amber route was their domain. And if you look at the current distribution of the I2a haplogroup still is.

I believe that Ore mountain predates Cornwall mines. At least this is what i could find. Can you point me to source saying that Cornwall mine predates Ore Mountain one?



Well maybe we need to revisit this. There were obviously mounted warriors on the scene and from the ballistic analysis I believe that the bronze arrows were fired from a horseback...

I find very little about prehistoric mining in the ore mountains.
In Cornwall tin mining would have started 2150 BC , probalby the earliest tin mining in Europe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Cornwall_and_Devon

Unetice had trade links with Wessex before they started bronze working themselves. Early bronze objects in Unetice came from Brittany and there was Cornish tin ore as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unetice_culture#Trade

I have read most of the bronze objects in Unetice had Cornish tin, but I don't remember where.

As for mounted archers, who got shot from above? The attackers or the armed convoy defenders?

Couldn't the archers have been shooting from on top of wagons? Or from trees?

I guess many explanations are possible and I'd be very surprised there were mounted archers 1200 BC.

oldeuropeanculture
02-07-15, 20:32
In Cornwall tin mining would have started 2150 BC , probalby the earliest tin mining in Europe

The dates I found for Ore mountains are 2500 bc...

I read the thing on Wikipedia. I am trying to find better sources. That article is very confusing.


As for mounted archers, who got shot from above? The attackers or the armed convoy defenders?

This is from the blog article


I believe that the arrows with the bronze arrowheads were fired by mounted archers. The proof for that is the bronze arrowhead which was found embedded in a scull. This arrowhead could only have been fired from a position above the head, which would indicate that the archer was on a horseback. Also the flint arrowhead which was found embedded in a humerus (upper arm) bone is embedded under such angle that the shot must have come from below, meaning that the arrow was fired by a foot soldier shooting a mounted warrior.

Horse bones were found mixed with human bones and weapons... Chariots and wagons are difficult to use in swampy river valleys of Pomerania...As I said t[/FONT]his is one of the interpretations.

bicicleur
02-07-15, 21:16
it would be logical that Unetice people were mining tin in the ore mountains
and I've read articles from writers asuming or suspecting that it happened
but as far as I know there no bronze age mine has been found there

if you could provide me with a source, I'd be happy