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MOESAN
02-07-15, 23:00
the 2 Y-R1b (1: M269+) are from distant enough period: Late Chalcolithic to plain Bronze
I 'm not competent concerning archeology
but Vucedol 2800 BC was considered by some scholars as a place were some potteries were akin to BB's ones (ancestor of BB)
a Y-I2a2 were there!
Peake and "old" scholars believed the Central Europe BBs were an assimilation of Old Europe Tripolje people with some Steppic I-Ean people, flying before other Steppic people. No West to East here.
I have in my sleeve a card of Y-I2a2 of N-E Carpathians Moldova being involved in the metals ores prospections.
These Y-I2a2 men can be native of the Moldovia Carpathian region under a 'dinaricized' form after crossings, maybe involved too among mixed cultures of this areas (HG's highlanders + E-Neolithic farmers + metallurgists, taking their chance into eastern Steppes after mixing with some pastoral tribes of the North Pont.
At the contrary, these Y-I2a2 (no trace for now before metals) could be too geographicaly north russian people - see Ryazan and surroudnings, N-E Moscow, where Y-IéA2 "s are present today - could be arrived in Moldova from North-East : moves in the Steppes are not so simple as I believed at first!
wait and see: I wait more Y-DNA, and precise datations.
Good reading: here under, the abstract and some forumers opinions from EUROGENES BLOG (I thank here, by the way)

Sunday, June 28, 2015R1b from Vučedol period Hungary (http://eurogenes.blogspot.fr/2015/06/r1b-from-vucedol-period-hungary.html)


Via the Bell Beaker Blogger (http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com.au/2015/06/2-vucedol-period-are-r1b.html):


It is noteworthy that the R1b occurred first after the Middle Chalcolithic in Transdanubia. (Late Chalcolithic has not been not examined yet, and so a hiatus remains between the Middle Chalcolithic and the Early Bronze Age data.) The two R1b samples are dated to the Vučedol period (~2,870-2,580 cal BC) and to the Gáta/Wieslburg culture (~1,950- 1,760 cal BC). R1b is the most frequent haplogroup in today’s Europe, with a frequency peak in Western Europe (Balaresque et al., 2010). From prehistoric context, this haplogroup is known from the Late Neolithic Central Germany (Bell Beaker culture, Lee et al., 2012). The theory that R1b reached Central Europe (and possibly the Carpathian Basin as well) with the Bell Beaker migration, starting from southwestern Europe (Brandt et al., 2014) seems to be collapsing, as R1b (M269) has recently been found in Yamnaya (3,300-2,700 cal BC) population on the Russian steppe as well (Haak et al., 2015).
The other Vučedol period sample belongs to I2a2. Also worth noting is the J2 from the Late Neolithic Sopot/Lengyel remains.


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/yQArHBwD9bmILZ0Y9DAahzQuFfJu16cYcNK0q7QnvCw=w557-h242-no (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQTXBGM2hyQ19qOUE/view?usp=sharing)




file:///C:/Users/Joachim/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif Colin Welling (http://www.blogger.com/profile/11902973565704018427) said...
~2,870-2,580 cal BC

this is the exact period that yamnaya graves start showing up in the carpathian basin which show isotopic evidence of migration from the east. It should be noted that pre yamnaya burials in the carpathian basin do not show isotopic evidence of migration.

Identifying kurgan graves in Eastern Hungary:
A burial mound in the light of strontium and oxygen isotope analysis

This is practically a smoking gun of yamnaya derived r1b
June 29, 2015 at 12:22 AM

file:///C:/Users/Joachim/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif Colin Welling (http://www.blogger.com/profile/11902973565704018427) said...
Strontium and oxygen isotope analyses re- veal an earlier period of ‘local’ burials, spanning the period 3300–2900 BC, followed by burials that postdate 2900 BC that exhibit ‘nonlocal’ isotopic signatures. The combination of the isotope values and the grave goods associated with the non- local burials point to the foothills of the Carpathian Mountains as the nearest location representing a possible childhood ori- gin of this nonlocal group...

Probable is the connection between the Sárrétudvari nonlocals and the Transylvanian Livezile
group, which is chiefly distributed in the eastern belt of the Apuseni Mountains and shows simi- larities in burial tradition (Ciugudean, 1996, 1998). Both the isotopes and some of the burial ob- jects suggest that the Sárrétudvari nonlocals spent at least a part of their childhoods in a hillier re- gion, possibly the mountainous area southeast of the study site...

Some of our Early Bronze Age study sites in the Northern Pontic have yielded similar 87Sr/86Sr ra- tios and oxygen values. Therefore we cannot exclude a Northern Pontic place of origin for the Sár- rétudvari individuals. Furthermore, Northern Pontic individuals might have picked up the Transylv- anian isotopic signature or a mixed signature on their way to the Eastern Great Hungarian Plain.

The migrants only came into hungary, in the form of yamnaya burials, starting around 2900, and they came from the east!
June 29, 2015 at 12:28 AM

file:///C:/Users/Joachim/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg (http://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647)
file:///C:/Users/Joachim/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif Gioiello (http://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647) said...
Thus the samples are more recent than Yamnaya. It will interesting to see which subclade:
"It is noteworthy that the R1b occurred first after the Middle Chalcolithic in Transdanubia. (Late Chalcolithic has not been not examined yet, and so a hiatus remains between the Middle Chalcolithic and the Early Bronze Age data.) The two R1b samples are dated to the Vučedol period (~2,870-2,580 cal BC) and to the Gáta/Wieslburg culture (~1,950-1,760 cal BC). R1b is the most frequent haplogroup in today’s Europe, with a frequency peak in Western Europe (Balaresque et al., 2010). From prehistoric context, this haplogroup is known from the Late Neolithic Central Germany (Bell Beaker culture, Lee et al., 2012). The theory that R1b reached Central Europe (and possibly the Carpathian Basin as well) with the Bell Beaker migration, starting from southwestern Europe (Brandt et al., 2014) seems to be collapsing, as R1b (M269) has recently been found in Yamnaya (3,300-2,700 cal BC) population on the Russian steppe as well (Haak et al., 2015)".
June 29, 2015 at 12:43 AM

file:///C:/Users/Joachim/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image003.jpg (http://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710)
file:///C:/Users/Joachim/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif Krefter (http://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710) said...
There's hardly any room for people to say the R1b in German/Czech Bell Beaker was not from East Europe. But of course some posters will stubbornly stick to the idea it expanded from the West. I simply don't understand. They're either ignorant of the evidence or don't want it to be true.
June 29, 2015 at 12:46 AM

file:///C:/Users/Joachim/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif Colin Welling (http://www.blogger.com/profile/11902973565704018427) said...
I'm trying to find the exact context of the two r1b guys
June 29, 2015 at 12:57 AM

file:///C:/Users/Joachim/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image003.jpg (http://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710)
file:///C:/Users/Joachim/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif Krefter (http://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710) said...
Table 10. This is the deepest classification they gave. They tested the same Y SNPs Haak 2010 did. The G2a* is usually G2a(xG2a2b), the I2 is usually I2(xI2a1, I2a2), the F* is usually H or T.

Everything is consistent with older data, except the two J2s.

Starčevo: G2a=1, G2a2b=2, F*=3, I2a1=1
Vinča: G2a=1
LBKT: G2a=1, I1=1
Sopot 5000-3400 BC: I2=1, I2a1=1, E1b1b1a1-M78=1, J2=1, C=1
Lengyel: G2a=3, F*=6, I2=1, E1b1b1a1-M78=1, J2=1, C=1
Balaton-Lasinja: F*=1, C=1
Bronze age: I2a2-M223=1, R1b=2
June 29, 2015 at 1:41 AM

Fluffy
03-07-15, 16:07
Interesting that they found G2a in LBKT all the way in Northern Germany/Denmark.

LeBrok
03-07-15, 17:44
There is a chance that West Yamnaya was R1b rich and from where the pre Italo/Celtic R1b comes from. Perhaps pushed out by R1a/Corded Ware from farther north.

Sile
03-07-15, 20:12
the 2 Y-R1b (1: M269+) are from distant enough period: Late Chalcolithic to plain Bronze
I 'm not competent concerning archeology
but Vucedol 2800 BC was considered by some scholars as a place were some potteries were akin to BB's ones (ancestor of BB)
a Y-I2a2 were there!
Peake and "old" scholars believed the Central Europe BBs were an assimilation of Old Europe Tripolje people with some Steppic I-Ean people, flying before other Steppic people. No West to East here.
I have in my sleeve a card of Y-I2a2 of N-E Carpathians Moldova being involved in the metals ores prospections.
These Y-I2a2 men can be native of the Moldovia Carpathian region under a 'dinaricized' form after crossings, maybe involved too among mixed cultures of this areas (HG's highlanders + E-Neolithic farmers + metallurgists, taking their chance into eastern Steppes after mixing with some pastoral tribes of the North Pont.
At the contrary, these Y-I2a2 (no trace for now before metals) could be too geographicaly north russian people - see Ryazan and surroudnings, N-E Moscow, where Y-IéA2 "s are present today - could be arrived in Moldova from North-East : moves in the Steppes are not so simple as I believed at first!
wait and see: I wait more Y-DNA, and precise datations.
Good reading: here under, the abstract and some forumers opinions from EUROGENES BLOG (I thank here, by the way)

Sunday, June 28, 2015

R1b from Vučedol period Hungary (http://eurogenes.blogspot.fr/2015/06/r1b-from-vucedol-period-hungary.html)




Via the Bell Beaker Blogger (http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com.au/2015/06/2-vucedol-period-are-r1b.html):

It is noteworthy that the R1b occurred first after the Middle Chalcolithic in Transdanubia. (Late Chalcolithic has not been not examined yet, and so a hiatus remains between the Middle Chalcolithic and the Early Bronze Age data.) The two R1b samples are dated to the Vučedol period (~2,870-2,580 cal BC) and to the Gáta/Wieslburg culture (~1,950- 1,760 cal BC). R1b is the most frequent haplogroup in today’s Europe, with a frequency peak in Western Europe (Balaresque et al., 2010). From prehistoric context, this haplogroup is known from the Late Neolithic Central Germany (Bell Beaker culture, Lee et al., 2012). The theory that R1b reached Central Europe (and possibly the Carpathian Basin as well) with the Bell Beaker migration, starting from southwestern Europe (Brandt et al., 2014) seems to be collapsing, as R1b (M269) has recently been found in Yamnaya (3,300-2,700 cal BC) population on the Russian steppe as well (Haak et al., 2015).
The other Vučedol period sample belongs to I2a2. Also worth noting is the J2 from the Late Neolithic Sopot/Lengyel remains.


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/yQArHBwD9bmILZ0Y9DAahzQuFfJu16cYcNK0q7QnvCw=w557-h242-no (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQTXBGM2hyQ19qOUE/view?usp=sharing)




file:///C:/Users/Joachim/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif Colin Welling (http://www.blogger.com/profile/11902973565704018427) said...
~2,870-2,580 cal BC

this is the exact period that yamnaya graves start showing up in the carpathian basin which show isotopic evidence of migration from the east. It should be noted that pre yamnaya burials in the carpathian basin do not show isotopic evidence of migration.

Identifying kurgan graves in Eastern Hungary:
A burial mound in the light of strontium and oxygen isotope analysis

This is practically a smoking gun of yamnaya derived r1b
June 29, 2015 at 12:22 AM

file:///C:/Users/Joachim/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif Colin Welling (http://www.blogger.com/profile/11902973565704018427) said...
Strontium and oxygen isotope analyses re- veal an earlier period of ‘local’ burials, spanning the period 3300–2900 BC, followed by burials that postdate 2900 BC that exhibit ‘nonlocal’ isotopic signatures. The combination of the isotope values and the grave goods associated with the non- local burials point to the foothills of the Carpathian Mountains as the nearest location representing a possible childhood ori- gin of this nonlocal group...

Probable is the connection between the Sárrétudvari nonlocals and the Transylvanian Livezile
group, which is chiefly distributed in the eastern belt of the Apuseni Mountains and shows simi- larities in burial tradition (Ciugudean, 1996, 1998). Both the isotopes and some of the burial ob- jects suggest that the Sárrétudvari nonlocals spent at least a part of their childhoods in a hillier re- gion, possibly the mountainous area southeast of the study site...

Some of our Early Bronze Age study sites in the Northern Pontic have yielded similar 87Sr/86Sr ra- tios and oxygen values. Therefore we cannot exclude a Northern Pontic place of origin for the Sár- rétudvari individuals. Furthermore, Northern Pontic individuals might have picked up the Transylv- anian isotopic signature or a mixed signature on their way to the Eastern Great Hungarian Plain.

The migrants only came into hungary, in the form of yamnaya burials, starting around 2900, and they came from the east!
June 29, 2015 at 12:28 AM

file:///C:/Users/Joachim/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg (http://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647)
file:///C:/Users/Joachim/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif Gioiello (http://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647) said...
Thus the samples are more recent than Yamnaya. It will interesting to see which subclade:
"It is noteworthy that the R1b occurred first after the Middle Chalcolithic in Transdanubia. (Late Chalcolithic has not been not examined yet, and so a hiatus remains between the Middle Chalcolithic and the Early Bronze Age data.) The two R1b samples are dated to the Vučedol period (~2,870-2,580 cal BC) and to the Gáta/Wieslburg culture (~1,950-1,760 cal BC). R1b is the most frequent haplogroup in today’s Europe, with a frequency peak in Western Europe (Balaresque et al., 2010). From prehistoric context, this haplogroup is known from the Late Neolithic Central Germany (Bell Beaker culture, Lee et al., 2012). The theory that R1b reached Central Europe (and possibly the Carpathian Basin as well) with the Bell Beaker migration, starting from southwestern Europe (Brandt et al., 2014) seems to be collapsing, as R1b (M269) has recently been found in Yamnaya (3,300-2,700 cal BC) population on the Russian steppe as well (Haak et al., 2015)".
June 29, 2015 at 12:43 AM

file:///C:/Users/Joachim/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image003.jpg (http://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710)
file:///C:/Users/Joachim/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif Krefter (http://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710) said...
There's hardly any room for people to say the R1b in German/Czech Bell Beaker was not from East Europe. But of course some posters will stubbornly stick to the idea it expanded from the West. I simply don't understand. They're either ignorant of the evidence or don't want it to be true.
June 29, 2015 at 12:46 AM

file:///C:/Users/Joachim/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif Colin Welling (http://www.blogger.com/profile/11902973565704018427) said...
I'm trying to find the exact context of the two r1b guys
June 29, 2015 at 12:57 AM

file:///C:/Users/Joachim/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image003.jpg (http://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710)
file:///C:/Users/Joachim/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif Krefter (http://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710) said...
Table 10. This is the deepest classification they gave. They tested the same Y SNPs Haak 2010 did. The G2a* is usually G2a(xG2a2b), the I2 is usually I2(xI2a1, I2a2), the F* is usually H or T.

Everything is consistent with older data, except the two J2s.

Starčevo: G2a=1, G2a2b=2, F*=3, I2a1=1
Vinča: G2a=1
LBKT: G2a=1, I1=1
Sopot 5000-3400 BC: I2=1, I2a1=1, E1b1b1a1-M78=1, J2=1, C=1
Lengyel: G2a=3, F*=6, I2=1, E1b1b1a1-M78=1, J2=1, C=1
Balaton-Lasinja: F*=1, C=1
Bronze age: I2a2-M223=1, R1b=2
June 29, 2015 at 1:41 AM

Discussion began in an earlier thread about the above
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31362-Neolithic-western-Carpathian-Basin-356-pages?p=461135&viewfull=1#post461135

Sile
03-07-15, 20:12
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31362-Neolithic-western-Carpathian-Basin-356-pages?p=461135&viewfull=1#post461135

Sile
05-07-15, 09:45
the 2 Y-R1b (1: M269+) are from distant enough period: Late Chalcolithic to plain Bronze
I 'm not competent concerning archeology
but Vucedol 2800 BC was considered by some scholars as a place were some potteries were akin to BB's ones (ancestor of BB)
a Y-I2a2 were there!
Peake and "old" scholars believed the Central Europe BBs were an assimilation of Old Europe Tripolje people with some Steppic I-Ean people, flying before other Steppic people. No West to East here.
I have in my sleeve a card of Y-I2a2 of N-E Carpathians Moldova being involved in the metals ores prospections.
These Y-I2a2 men can be native of the Moldovia Carpathian region under a 'dinaricized' form after crossings, maybe involved too among mixed cultures of this areas (HG's highlanders + E-Neolithic farmers + metallurgists, taking their chance into eastern Steppes after mixing with some pastoral tribes of the North Pont.
At the contrary, these Y-I2a2 (no trace for now before metals) could be too geographicaly north russian people - see Ryazan and surroudnings, N-E Moscow, where Y-IéA2 "s are present today - could be arrived in Moldova from North-East : moves in the Steppes are not so simple as I believed at first!
wait and see: I wait more Y-DNA, and precise datations.
Good reading: here under, the abstract and some forumers opinions from EUROGENES BLOG (I thank here, by the way)

Sunday, June 28, 2015

R1b from Vučedol period Hungary (http://eurogenes.blogspot.fr/2015/06/r1b-from-vucedol-period-hungary.html)




Via the Bell Beaker Blogger (http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com.au/2015/06/2-vucedol-period-are-r1b.html):

It is noteworthy that the R1b occurred first after the Middle Chalcolithic in Transdanubia. (Late Chalcolithic has not been not examined yet, and so a hiatus remains between the Middle Chalcolithic and the Early Bronze Age data.) The two R1b samples are dated to the Vučedol period (~2,870-2,580 cal BC) and to the Gáta/Wieslburg culture (~1,950- 1,760 cal BC). R1b is the most frequent haplogroup in today’s Europe, with a frequency peak in Western Europe (Balaresque et al., 2010). From prehistoric context, this haplogroup is known from the Late Neolithic Central Germany (Bell Beaker culture, Lee et al., 2012). The theory that R1b reached Central Europe (and possibly the Carpathian Basin as well) with the Bell Beaker migration, starting from southwestern Europe (Brandt et al., 2014) seems to be collapsing, as R1b (M269) has recently been found in Yamnaya (3,300-2,700 cal BC) population on the Russian steppe as well (Haak et al., 2015).
The other Vučedol period sample belongs to I2a2. Also worth noting is the J2 from the Late Neolithic Sopot/Lengyel remains.


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/yQArHBwD9bmILZ0Y9DAahzQuFfJu16cYcNK0q7QnvCw=w557-h242-no (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQTXBGM2hyQ19qOUE/view?usp=sharing)




file:///C:/Users/Joachim/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif Colin Welling (http://www.blogger.com/profile/11902973565704018427) said...
~2,870-2,580 cal BC

this is the exact period that yamnaya graves start showing up in the carpathian basin which show isotopic evidence of migration from the east. It should be noted that pre yamnaya burials in the carpathian basin do not show isotopic evidence of migration.

Identifying kurgan graves in Eastern Hungary:
A burial mound in the light of strontium and oxygen isotope analysis

This is practically a smoking gun of yamnaya derived r1b
June 29, 2015 at 12:22 AM

file:///C:/Users/Joachim/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif Colin Welling (http://www.blogger.com/profile/11902973565704018427) said...
Strontium and oxygen isotope analyses re- veal an earlier period of ‘local’ burials, spanning the period 3300–2900 BC, followed by burials that postdate 2900 BC that exhibit ‘nonlocal’ isotopic signatures. The combination of the isotope values and the grave goods associated with the non- local burials point to the foothills of the Carpathian Mountains as the nearest location representing a possible childhood ori- gin of this nonlocal group...

Probable is the connection between the Sárrétudvari nonlocals and the Transylvanian Livezile
group, which is chiefly distributed in the eastern belt of the Apuseni Mountains and shows simi- larities in burial tradition (Ciugudean, 1996, 1998). Both the isotopes and some of the burial ob- jects suggest that the Sárrétudvari nonlocals spent at least a part of their childhoods in a hillier re- gion, possibly the mountainous area southeast of the study site...

Some of our Early Bronze Age study sites in the Northern Pontic have yielded similar 87Sr/86Sr ra- tios and oxygen values. Therefore we cannot exclude a Northern Pontic place of origin for the Sár- rétudvari individuals. Furthermore, Northern Pontic individuals might have picked up the Transylv- anian isotopic signature or a mixed signature on their way to the Eastern Great Hungarian Plain.

The migrants only came into hungary, in the form of yamnaya burials, starting around 2900, and they came from the east!
June 29, 2015 at 12:28 AM

file:///C:/Users/Joachim/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg (http://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647)
file:///C:/Users/Joachim/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif Gioiello (http://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647) said...
Thus the samples are more recent than Yamnaya. It will interesting to see which subclade:
"It is noteworthy that the R1b occurred first after the Middle Chalcolithic in Transdanubia. (Late Chalcolithic has not been not examined yet, and so a hiatus remains between the Middle Chalcolithic and the Early Bronze Age data.) The two R1b samples are dated to the Vučedol period (~2,870-2,580 cal BC) and to the Gáta/Wieslburg culture (~1,950-1,760 cal BC). R1b is the most frequent haplogroup in today’s Europe, with a frequency peak in Western Europe (Balaresque et al., 2010). From prehistoric context, this haplogroup is known from the Late Neolithic Central Germany (Bell Beaker culture, Lee et al., 2012). The theory that R1b reached Central Europe (and possibly the Carpathian Basin as well) with the Bell Beaker migration, starting from southwestern Europe (Brandt et al., 2014) seems to be collapsing, as R1b (M269) has recently been found in Yamnaya (3,300-2,700 cal BC) population on the Russian steppe as well (Haak et al., 2015)".
June 29, 2015 at 12:43 AM

file:///C:/Users/Joachim/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image003.jpg (http://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710)
file:///C:/Users/Joachim/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif Krefter (http://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710) said...
There's hardly any room for people to say the R1b in German/Czech Bell Beaker was not from East Europe. But of course some posters will stubbornly stick to the idea it expanded from the West. I simply don't understand. They're either ignorant of the evidence or don't want it to be true.
June 29, 2015 at 12:46 AM

file:///C:/Users/Joachim/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif Colin Welling (http://www.blogger.com/profile/11902973565704018427) said...
I'm trying to find the exact context of the two r1b guys
June 29, 2015 at 12:57 AM

file:///C:/Users/Joachim/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image003.jpg (http://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710)
file:///C:/Users/Joachim/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif Krefter (http://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710) said...
Table 10. This is the deepest classification they gave. They tested the same Y SNPs Haak 2010 did. The G2a* is usually G2a(xG2a2b), the I2 is usually I2(xI2a1, I2a2), the F* is usually H or T.

Everything is consistent with older data, except the two J2s.

Starčevo: G2a=1, G2a2b=2, F*=3, I2a1=1
Vinča: G2a=1
LBKT: G2a=1, I1=1
Sopot 5000-3400 BC: I2=1, I2a1=1, E1b1b1a1-M78=1, J2=1, C=1
Lengyel: G2a=3, F*=6, I2=1, E1b1b1a1-M78=1, J2=1, C=1
Balaton-Lasinja: F*=1, C=1
Bronze age: I2a2-M223=1, R1b=2
June 29, 2015 at 1:41 AM

while reading many papers recently , the slav (dzino) and a few english writers both mention the vudedol culture and the proto- illyrian tribe of Daesitiates as covering the same area of land in pannonia and bosnia. More info is required though,

MOESAN
16-07-15, 22:11
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31362-Neolithic-western-Carpathian-Basin-356-pages?p=461135&viewfull=1#post461135

Thanks.
I 'll read it (a good piece of writing)

Dalmat
17-07-15, 06:23
while reading many papers recently , the slav (dzino) and a few english writers both mention the vudedol culture and the proto- illyrian tribe of Daesitiates as covering the same area of land in pannonia and bosnia. More info is required though,

Vučedol is NE Croatia, this is the spread

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Vucedol_culture_map.png

they were pastorals and hunters, and when i look at the map, it gives territory same as west balkan cluster

It was first culture that used food plates for single person, before that, most people used big bowls for the group eating

They are not bell beakers

Sile
17-07-15, 09:21
Vučedol is NE Croatia, this is the spread

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Vucedol_culture_map.png

they were pastorals and hunters, and when i look at the map, it gives territory same as west balkan cluster

It was first culture that used food plates for single person, before that, most people used big bowls for the group eating

They are not bell beakers

ok, so its still not croatia, bosnia, sebia, albania etc from ancient times. it's part of ancient Illyria and as many historians state it is referred to a proto-illyrian. I mentioned the tribe that was in the same area who fought the romans in the 4 year great Illyrian revolt of 9 BC.

I also know they are not BB people

I also know at the time they where not slavic or germanic or albanian or serbian etc etc

Whatever haplogroup they found from ancient bones with the time period is what markers this culture was.

arvistro
17-07-15, 11:08
Is there relationship bw Vucedol and Baden culture?

MOESAN
24-07-15, 23:36
Thanks, good picture (I hope it is as accurate than precise, but it surely is)
Vucedol is not BB, but some Central Europe scholars (Czech?) thought the prototype of BB wares were found in Vucedol culture - personally I have not the knowledge to judge the accuracy of this. I was not thinking in a West>>East move of late BBs: for me late BBs of Northern-Central Europe are acculturated cultures (alreay I-Ean, I think) of pre-BB people which know a launching after BBs long contacts. I think the proto-BBs of the origins came from the Tripolye-Yamnaya contact zone at first, East>>West.
Vucedol could have known the same phenomenon of spreading of certain cultural traits among different neighboring cultures, as proto-Celts, proto-Italics and proto-Illyrians: in this case, the Illyrians was firstable more akin to centum speaking tribes of North Illyria, maybe proto-Venetic, and the southern Illyrian languages, satem, were the fact of other tribes more akin to Dacians-Thracians (whose part was ancestor to current Albanians).
old anthropology signaled a move into N-E Italy supposedly from Balkans about the 1800 BC: ancestors of some early wave of Italics?

Paleoguy
01-08-15, 19:18
Is any of the I2a belong to the Dinaric branch? Anyone know?