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Fluffy
03-07-15, 16:34
What hypothesis do you favour?

Maciamo
04-07-15, 08:34
A combination of the Anatolian, Armenian and Kurgan hypothesis since I believe that R1b people domesticated cattle in eastern Anatolia around 10,500 years ago, then moved to the Caucasus region (including Armenia), crossed it to the Pontic Steppe, then expanded to Europe (first by invading the Balkans) and Central Asia. The reason why there are so many hypothesis is that there is some truth in most of them. Even the Paleolithic continuity isn't completely wrong if we consider that both R1a and R1b were already found in Paleolithic Eastern Europe.

The only one that is clearly wrong is the Out of India theory, which emerged from the refusal of some Indian people to believe that the Indo-Aryan invasion happened and that they are partly descended from Europeans. However R1b* may have originated somewhere between Afghanistan, Turkmenistan and Iran after R* or R1* people from Siberia moved across Central Asia. That would explain the presence of teal Gedosian-like admixture in Yamna R1b people.

Here is the migration map of R1b.

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-migration-map.jpg

Sile
04-07-15, 09:06
A combination of the Anatolian, Armenian and Kurgan hypothesis since I believe that R1b people domesticated cattle in eastern Anatolia around 10,500 years ago, then moved to the Caucasus region (including Armenia), crossed it to the Pontic Steppe, then expanded to Europe (first by invading the Balkans) and Central Asia. The reason why there are so many hypothesis is that there is some truth in most of them. Even the Paleolithic continuity isn't completely wrong if we consider that both R1a and R1b were already found in Paleolithic Eastern Europe.

The only one that is clearly wrong is the Out of India theory, which emerged from the refusal of some Indian people to believe that the Indo-Aryan invasion happened and that they are partly descended from Europeans. However R1b* may have originated somewhere between Afghanistan, Turkmenistan and Iran after R* or R1* people from Siberia moved across Central Asia. That would explain the presence of teal Gedosian-like admixture in Yamna R1b people.

Here is the migration map of R1b.

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-migration-map.jpg


your map reflects the 2015 ydna data of a 7 to 1 ration favouring R1a over R1b in eastern and northern Caspian sea area

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/ejhg2014285x3.pdf
R1b had to move west from somewhere and clearly it was not north of the caspian sea

Taranis
04-07-15, 16:46
I'm inclined to agree with Maciamo, even though I'm dismissive of the Paleolithic Continuity Theory because it has this underlying assumption of extreme language immobility, and despite the fact that Alinei states otherwise, the concept always struck me as rather Eurocentric, ignoring Anatolian, the Indo-Iranic languages and Tocharian. Further, PCT isn't about Indo-European alone, it also incorporates ideas about Basque, Uralic and Etruscan that in my opinion are hair-raising by themselves. The Pontic-Caspian steppe (Kurgan) model is the one that - by far - best fits with the available linguistic evidence (in particular the common terminology for "wheel" or "wheeled vehicle", which, in my opinion, narrows down the origin). However, I concede that the "run-up" allows for a variety of possibilities. What I find worthy of mention there in particular is the so-called "Indo-Hittite" model, which argues for a split between Proto-Anatolian and a "late" form of PIE from which the other IE branches are derived, and which has shown up again and again in the Indo-European "trees" by supporters of various theories.

Maciamo raised a good point also about people supporting a certain scenario because of ulterior motivations - in the case of the Out-of-India theory ill-fated nationalism. With regard for both the Anatolian hypothesis and PCT, it struck me that many adherents are uncomfortable with the idea of horsebacked bronze age warriors, and prefer the (romantic?) idea that the Indo-European language were spread in more "peaceful" ways.

arvistro
04-07-15, 17:37
I am biased, so Indo-Uralic!

Until it is not completely refuted :)

Angela
04-07-15, 17:47
Taranis: The Pontic-Caspian steppe (Kurgan) model is the one that - by far - best fits with the available linguistic evidence (in particular the common terminology for "wheel" or "wheeled vehicle", which, in my opinion, narrows down the origin). However, I concede that the "run-up" allows for a variety of possibilities. What I find worthy of mention there in particular is the so-called "Indo-Hittite" model, which argues for a split between Proto-Anatolian and a "late" form of PIE from which the other IE branches are derived, and which has shown up again and again in the Indo-European "trees" by supporters of various theories.

After waffling for years, I'd go with this, which allows for a movement from Anatolia, although not really any of Renfrew's various iterations, unless he's suddenly pulled another one out of his hat. As for Paleolithic Continuity, I don't even know when EHG got west of the Urals, and I don't think their language would have survived from that time anyway.

I would tend to go with Maciamo's movement of R1b as well. I'm not sold on the mass theft of southern Caucasus wives.


Taranis: With regard for both the Anatolian hypothesis and PCT, it struck me that many adherents are uncomfortable with the idea of horsebacked bronze age warriors, and prefer the (romantic?) idea that the Indo-European language were spread in more "peaceful" ways.

Not me...I have absolutely no problem believing a lot of this language and culture change was the result of the movement of a pillaging, murderous horde, but then maybe I have a rather jaded view of human nature. I think Anthony is being very PC indeed.

I don't think, however, that the horse-backed Middle and Bronze Age warriors of some people's imagination (talk about romantic) were all that Yamnaya southern steppe like...I think we're going to see a lot of turnover on the steppe, and those people are going to be more Indo-Europeanized EHG and European plane people, and later on they're going to change again.

LeBrok
04-07-15, 19:30
A combination of the Anatolian, Armenian and Kurgan hypothesis since I believe that R1b people domesticated cattle in eastern Anatolia around 10,500 years ago, then moved to the Caucasus region (including Armenia), crossed it to the Pontic Steppe, then expanded to Europe (first by invading the Balkans) and Central Asia. The reason why there are so many hypothesis is that there is some truth in most of them. Even the Paleolithic continuity isn't completely wrong if we consider that both R1a and R1b were already found in Paleolithic Eastern Europe.

The only one that is clearly wrong is the Out of India theory, which emerged from the refusal of some Indian people to believe that the Indo-Aryan invasion happened and that they are partly descended from Europeans. However R1b* may have originated somewhere between Afghanistan, Turkmenistan and Iran after R* or R1* people from Siberia moved across Central Asia. That would explain the presence of teal Gedosian-like admixture in Yamna R1b people.

Here is the migration map of R1b.


Good observation. There is always some continuity between consecutive cultures. We can only talk about degree of influence.
Here however, in IE case, we have to make sure we are talking about finished IE package, and as such it came together in the Steppe. From there we can engage in a discussion where all the IE elements come from, like language, metallurgy, horses, cows, the wheel, religion, genetics, agriculture etc. I'm sure they all didn't come from only one source.

LeBrok
04-07-15, 19:37
Good observation. There is always some continuity between consecutive cultures. We can only talk about degree of influence.
Here however, in IE case, we have to make sure we are talking about finished IE package, and as such it came together in the Steppe. From there we can engage in a discussion where all the IE elements come from, like language, metallurgy, horses, cows, the wheel, religion, genetics, agriculture etc. I'm sure they all didn't come from only one source.

Can we call cattle breeding R1b farmers from Anatolia IEs? Can we call horse riding WHGs of the Steppe IEs? I think we should only use it for this fully developed package in Yamnaya, just before the expansion.

oriental
04-07-15, 19:41
The out-of India cannot be dismissed offhand as I did in my earlier viewpoint. There was continual contact with Indus Valley Civilization through the Hindu Kush passes and via the Arabian Sea. There was close contact with Elamites and even the Red Sea ports. Naturally history as we know seems to be written with a European view with Herodotus and Roman sources. However time will tell with more archaeological discoveries in the Indian Ocean off the ancient city of Dwarka and in the Bay of Bengal and other sites.

Ancient India included Afghanistan and there was continuous contact with Tajiks and other Central Asians. Iran is next door too. Indians and Iranians are very genetically for instance Pathans (Indian name) or Pashtuns (Afghan name) are Iranic.

People don't seem to mention the Persian Empire before the Greek Empire of Alexander the Great. The Persian power spread from Afghanistan to Anatolia and Egypt. They would have also spread Indo-European culture. The Phrygians were also allied with Cyrus the Great.

Fluffy
04-07-15, 20:46
The out-of India cannot be dismissed offhand as I did in my earlier viewpoint. There was continual contact with Indus Valley Civilization through the Hindu Kush passes and via the Arabian Sea. There was close contact with Elamites and even the Red Sea ports. Naturally history as we know seems to be written with a European view with Herodotus and Roman sources. However time will tell with more archaeological discoveries in the Indian Ocean off the ancient city of Dwarka and in the Bay of Bengal and other sites.

People don't seem to mention the Persian Empire before the Greek Empire of Alexander the Great. The Persian power spread from Afghanistan to Anatolia and Egypt. They would have also spread Indo-European culture. The Phrygians were also allied with Cyrus the Great.

Interesting take on it. It is possible.

Fluffy
06-07-15, 17:49
[QUOTE=Maciamo;461630]A combination of the Anatolian, Armenian and Kurgan hypothesis since I believe that R1b people domesticated cattle in eastern Anatolia around 10,500 years ago, then moved to the Caucasus region (including Armenia), crossed it to the Pontic Steppe, then expanded to Europe (first by invading the Balkans) and Central Asia. The reason why there are so many hypothesis is that there is some truth in most of them. Even the Paleolithic continuity isn't completely wrong if we consider that both R1a and R1b were already found in Paleolithic Eastern Europe.

The only one that is clearly wrong is the Out of India theory, which emerged from the refusal of some Indian people to believe that the Indo

Great post. Guess I should of made it multiple choice.

arvistro
06-07-15, 23:08
A combination of the Anatolian, Armenian and Kurgan hypothesis since I believe that R1b people domesticated cattle in eastern Anatolia around 10,500 years ago, then moved to the Caucasus region (including Armenia), crossed it to the Pontic Steppe, then expanded to Europe (first by invading the Balkans) and Central Asia. The reason why there are so many hypothesis is that there is some truth in most of them. Even the Paleolithic continuity isn't completely wrong if we consider that both R1a and R1b were already found in Paleolithic Eastern Europe.

The only one that is clearly wrong is the Out of India theory, which emerged from the refusal of some Indian people to believe that the Indo-Aryan invasion happened and that they are partly descended from Europeans. However R1b* may have originated somewhere between Afghanistan, Turkmenistan and Iran after R* or R1* people from Siberia moved across Central Asia. That would explain the presence of teal Gedosian-like admixture in Yamna R1b people.
While I agree with R1b movements, I disagree with those R1b early pastoralists speaking pre-PIE. They became PIE in Yamna.

Greying Wanderer
08-07-15, 04:41
A combination of the Anatolian, Armenian and Kurgan hypothesis since I believe that R1b people domesticated cattle in eastern Anatolia around 10,500 years ago, then moved to the Caucasus region (including Armenia), crossed it to the Pontic Steppe, then expanded to Europe (first by invading the Balkans) and Central Asia. The reason why there are so many hypothesis is that there is some truth in most of them. Even the Paleolithic continuity isn't completely wrong if we consider that both R1a and R1b were already found in Paleolithic Eastern Europe.

The only one that is clearly wrong is the Out of India theory, which emerged from the refusal of some Indian people to believe that the Indo-Aryan invasion happened and that they are partly descended from Europeans. However R1b* may have originated somewhere between Afghanistan, Turkmenistan and Iran after R* or R1* people from Siberia moved across Central Asia. That would explain the presence of teal Gedosian-like admixture in Yamna R1b people.

Here is the migration map of R1b.

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-migration-map.jpg

It seems to me most of your other maps related to this: R1b clades, Atlantic_Med autosomal, NW Euro autosomal etc, all point at something different - dramatic founder effects along the Atlantic coast expanding west to east so yes, M, L or P whatever coming from the east but then splitting up into multiple child clades as part of those dramatic regional founder effects and spreading backwards.

This would fit your other maps better imo and be consistent with the possibility that the acid soils of the Atlantic coast region inhibited maximum population density until someone figured out an optimal way of farming in that region.

RobertColumbia
20-07-15, 04:30
A combination of the Anatolian, Armenian and Kurgan hypothesis since I believe that R1b people domesticated cattle in eastern Anatolia around 10,500 years ago, then moved to the Caucasus region (including Armenia), crossed it to the Pontic Steppe, then expanded to Europe (first by invading the Balkans) and Central Asia. The reason why there are so many hypothesis is that there is some truth in most of them. Even the Paleolithic continuity isn't completely wrong if we consider that both R1a and R1b were already found in Paleolithic Eastern Europe....

Yes, that's a good way to think about it. These hypotheses are simplified models of complex social, ethnic, linguistic, and political developments and movements over thousands of years. It is highly unlikely that the so-called "Kurgan" people thought of themselves as such. They probably referred to themselves by the name of an individual tribe or clan, or just considered themselves to be family of the people who lived near where they lived, worshiped the gods that they did, and could understand their language. There wasn't a single Kurgan National Anthem, Rex Maximus Kurganorum, or Big Book of Official Kurgan Ettiquette and Social Rituals.

There is a very big difference between choosing the model that best matches the evidence and concluding that the model is 100% perfect and an exact representation of every historical event.

There's also the temptation to imagine a hypothetical "Kurgan" city that was composed of separate "Ethnic" neighborhoods - a Proto-Slav neighborhood, a Proto-Hindu neighborhood, a Proto-Baltic neighborhood, a Proto-Iranian neighborhood, etc., with each group having their own social institutions, cultural centers, musical styles, and language schools that taught still-mutually intelligible proto-dialects of the eventual Satem language branches. That is also almost certainly not how it happened. That's not to say that there were certain Kurgan regions or families that were already starting to lean subtly in the direction of one or more of the eventual branches.

LeBrok
20-07-15, 17:03
Here is a thought. If IE came from Anatolia, shouldn't they have been high in EEF and low on WHG/ANE admixtures? After all Anatolia is one of prime Neolithic Farmers lands. Conversely however, we can observe diminishing EEF level in all Neolithic Farmer population during Bronze and Iron Age. If IEs truly came from Anatolia, it would mean that they were recent emigrants there, because with high WHG and ANE they didn't fit genetically in populations of Neolithic Farmers . Question would still stand, where did they come to Anatolia from?

MOESAN
23-07-15, 10:35
I'm not sure I understood well your point - could you develop it please?
&: the Y-DNA haplos you give us here are today population; are we sure it was the same distribution earlier?

Tomenable
14-08-15, 06:15
The only one that is clearly wrong is the Out of India theory, which emerged from the refusal of some Indian people to believe that the Indo-Aryan invasion happened and that they are partly descended from Europeans. (...)

I generally agree, however:

1) Indo-Aryans were not really Europeans, Europe was simply "invaded" by similar people as India,
2) It was a mass migration rather than invasion, just like in Europe there was a similar immigration

In terms of archaeology Swat culture is considered Indo-Aryan and it resembled Andronovo-Sintashta:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhara_grave_culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture)

http://pastmists.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/swatandronovo.jpg