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arvistro
03-07-15, 22:34
According to anthropologists there were two type of skulls found in Mesolithic Karelia. One was characterised as Europoid and other as metis with Mongoloid features. I provide below the famous reconstruction of faces:
7348

Recently Haak et al came up with EHG concept which was characterised as Karelian Mesolithic hunter, and similar population constituted 50% of Yamna genetic input.

What is your guess or idea which face represents the EHG autosomal person?

Fire Haired14
04-07-15, 01:45
According to anthropologists there were two type of skulls found in Mesolithic Karelia. One was characterised as Europoid and other as metis with Mongoloid features. I provide below the famous reconstruction of faces:
7348

Recently Haak et al came up with EHG concept which was characterised as Karelian Mesolithic hunter, and similar population constituted 50% of Yamna genetic input.

What is your guess or idea which face represents the EHG autosomal person?

The one on the right. The East Asian features in some skulls of the site makes sense, because the Karelia_HG had affinity to East Asians other Ancient West Eurasians lack. He was probably part East Asian/Siberian, but it was a very minor part of his ancestry.

arvistro
04-07-15, 07:23
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQSnRhSWppaTUzdkk/view?pli=1

It looks like EHG is the closest to Volga-Ural (not sure what populations are represented by this, apparently Udmurt, Bashkir, etc). Then it is Tajik. So they would look inbetween those guys.

Fire Haired14
04-07-15, 08:44
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQSnRhSWppaTUzdkk/view?pli=1

It looks like EHG is the closest to Volga-Ural (not sure what populations are represented by this, apparently Udmurt, Bashkir, etc). Then it is Tajik. So they would look inbetween those guys.

Pretty much, whoever has the most Yamnaya is closest to EHG. ANE-rich or WHG-rich ancestry also help.

arvistro
04-07-15, 09:10
...which is woman to the left

Angela
04-07-15, 16:01
The one on the left is a woman??!! Wow.

Anyway, you can't arbitrarily decide that the more "European" looking one is the one who best represents the EHG who admixed into the Yamnaya.

Also, you have to consider that the snps which code for pigmentation and facial traits are a very small part of the total genome. You could have a person with more "Siberian" type admixture who doesn't show it in terms of phenotype, and someone with less of it autosomally who shows it in terms of phenotype. Or, you could have a family where everyone exhibits the same general levels in terms of components, and yet the phenotypes are different. It happens in African American families all the time. In prior generations, one child could "pass" into the "white" culture, where the rest could not.

Anatole Broyard-American intellectual
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/11/07/arts/Anatole-Broyard-190.jpg

This is his daughter Bliss meeting her father's mixed race family:
http://cdn.themoth.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Harold-and-Belle.jpg

arvistro
05-07-15, 22:33
Of course one person can look many ways. I was more thinking whether population as a whole looked more like man or woman in the pic. I think general feel in forums is that they were just like East Euros modern. But, then I started my doubts.
They had 60% WHG and 40% ANE, that is like being a child of mixed ANE and WHG family.

Unfortunately I dont know how 100% ANE person did look back then, neither I am 100% sure how WHG looked. So, I hope someone could help me out.

My assumption is that the man represents WHG incommers to the region from South/West (basically more or less WHG guys + maybe some Neolithic ad), whilst the woman mixed EHG incommers from East (basically mixed WHG + ANEish population).

arvistro
05-07-15, 22:48
Mesolithic blond blue eyed Karelian EHG modern incarnation?

https://www.google.lv/search?q=mika+hakkinen&biw=1366&bih=657&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=CJiZVayOEcOZsAG77rvoBA&sqi=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ

Fire Haired14
06-07-15, 00:59
If some skulls in Karelia look obviously East Asian and since East Asian-affinity has been found in Karelia_HG, it's safe to assume the East Asian-looking one doesn't represent the typical EHG-person. The East Asian-affinity in the Karelia_HG is so minor if anything he's the guy on the right. BTW, Motala_HGs had East Asian-affinity to, but about half as much as the Karelia_HGs.

Angela
06-07-15, 02:03
Mesolithic blond blue eyed Karelian EHG modern incarnation?

https://www.google.lv/search?q=mika+hakkinen&biw=1366&bih=657&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=CJiZVayOEcOZsAG77rvoBA&sqi=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ

Interesting. My first impression was that he has a bit of the look of a bleached out American Indian...like the Cheyenne. Dye his hair, brown contacts and a spray tan and he'd pass un-noticed, in my opinion, even among pure-bloods.

http://www.bb.is/lisalib/getfile.aspx?itemid=45331

http://www.formel1.de/public/news/tt/400/114114.jpg

http://www.firstpeople.us/photographs2/ls/Scabby-wife-Walking-Woman-daughter-Bear-Woman-Cheyenne-1908.jpg

As I said on another thread, uniparental markers are no indicator of phenotype. My mtDna places me firmly with the EHG and there is absolutely no resemblance.

@FireHaired
No offense, but your first sentence is totally illogical. That isn't to say I think these people would have looked East Asian, but then the woman on the left in the reconstructions doesn't look East Asian to me either...she just doesn't really look like a modern European.

Fire Haired14
06-07-15, 06:14
@Angela,
EHG from Karelia and Samara had minor East Asian ancestry. Clear East Asian features existed in Mesolithic Karelia. If anything those features are connected to the East Asian ancestry in Karelia_HG.

I guess some could have had features similar to East Asians not because of East Asian blood, but I doubt it.

arvistro
06-07-15, 07:32
That is the point that ANE links Native Americans to Syberia to modern European.
So, population 40% of ANE is expected to look somewhat different from modern Euros, and I would say in direction of Mika.

I dont think Mongoloid-ish features = East Asian admixture... To me much of ANE should be enough.
It might work the other way though. East Asian without ANE might work too.

Anyway do we have 100% ANE folk reconstructed?

arvistro
06-07-15, 10:59
OK guys, both Karelian and Samara EHG R1a according to their skulls belonged to so called Uralic/Lappoid race.
More info on Russian molgen forum.
They identified both hunters and found skull descriptions...

So, PIE is genetic baby of Mika Hakkinen and Kim Kardassian... :)

Angela
06-07-15, 13:41
That is the point that ANE links Native Americans to Syberia to modern European.
So, population 40% of ANE is expected to look somewhat different from modern Euros, and I would say in direction of Mika.

I dont think Mongoloid-ish features = East Asian admixture... To me much of ANE should be enough.
It might work the other way though. East Asian without ANE might work too.

Anyway do we have 100% ANE folk reconstructed?

I would agree with this. As for pure ANE, that would be Mal'ta, but he was a boy, and I'm not aware of any reconstruction of him.
However, the Russian scientist who excavated him said that he had a "Mongoloid" appearance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mal%27ta-Buret%27_culture

"Mongoloid features had been originally acknowledged in the skeletal remains of a child found at the site of Malta. Alexeev (1998, 323) in his later publication was more cautious, stating that this area was“inhabited by a population of Mongoloid appearance"

Russian scientists did do reconstructions of the Sunghir family, however, 25,000 BC in Russia, 19o kilometers east of Moscow.

Woman:
https://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/sunghir2.gif
'Man
https://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/sunghir-1.gif
Children:
https://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/sunghir3.gif?w=220&h=319https://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/sunghir4.gif?w=210&h=318

It's discussed in Matilda's Blog:
https://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/09/page/2/

Fire Haired14
06-07-15, 20:13
arvistro,
You gave this link for skulls of Karelia+Samara HGs in another blog. It says they both had narrow noses.
http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,2890.60.html

arvistro
06-07-15, 22:49
OK guys, both Karelian and Samara EHG R1a according to their skulls belonged to so called Uralic/Lappoid race.
More info on Russian molgen forum.
They identified both hunters and found skull descriptions...

So, PIE is genetic baby of Mika Hakkinen and Kim Kardassian... :)
User's fenriR post, as re-told by me below.

From Haak et al
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/02/10/013433.full-text.pdf+html

The individual we refer to as ‘Karelia’ in this study is UZ0074/I0061 (MAE RAS collection number 5773-74, grave number 142)
from the ~5500 BCE Mesolithic site Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov (island in Lake Onega) in Karelia, Western Russia, for which a complete mitochondrial genome was published
recently4. Mitochondrial HVS I data from eight other individuals from the same site have also been described5.

An individual was described by V.P. Jakimov in "Anthropological materials from Neolithic graves in Juzhno Olenskij island" (Juzhno Olenskij is the Karelian)
http://www.kunstkamera.ru/files/lib/mae_xix/mae_xix_06.pdf
(253, 254 pages)

Will translate some, the question mark after gender is from author. Now we know he was he, R1a, EHG:
"Gender of skeleton female (?). Age adult.
--a lot of very technical text that is hard for me to read in Russian and even harder to properly translate, anthropometrical description--
Face high and wide, moderattely flattened. --and again technical text--

Actually I could not find yet, based on which skull Mr Gerasimov made those reconstructions from the first post. But given that this "woman" is indeed somewhat man looking. And the "woman (?)" in description was the one who turned out to be a man.. it might as well be, that this "woman" reconstruction is exactly of Haak's R1a EHG.

On the Samara
the individual we refer to as ‘Samara hunter-gatherer’ I0124/SVP44 (5640-5555 calBCE, Beta-392490) is an adult male from grave 1 in a Neolithic-Eneolithic settlement producing artifacts from the Elshanka, Samara, and Repin cultures. The specific site is Lebyazhinka IV, on the Sok River, Samara oblast, Russia. (‘Neolithic’ here refers to the presence of ceramics, not to domesticated animals or plants.) The radiocarbon date of this individual, based on a femur, is centuries before the appearance of domesticated animals in the middle Volga region. Lebyazhinka IV and the neighboring Lebyazhinka V site were occupied seasonally by multiple cultures between 7000-3500 BCE; a few graves were found in the settled areas6.

They did not find the exact skull from Lebyazhinka, but found from other site Chekalino IV
http://www.povolzie.archeologia.ru/19.htm

I translated the fragment with google translate (and fixed some obvious misspells, and bolded some):
The earliest anthropological materials of the region (IV-b Chekalin, Lebyazhinka IV; Table 3) (Figure 3) are Elshanskoy Neolithic culture prevalent in forest-steppe Zavolzhe. Based on radiocarbon dates (Mamonov AE, 1995. S. 23) it already existed in the second half of the VII century BC At this time, the spaces forest belt of Eastern Europe was inhabited by tribes from Mesolithic way of household.
[...]
Skull Elshansk culture from burial in a. Lebyazhinka on a range of key parameters is quite similar to the other Neolithic skull Chekalin IV-a (Comb Ceramic culture) (Figure 3). Both skulls dolichocranial have narrow srednenaklonny forehead low, somewhat flattened at the top level entity. Nose narrow, stands slightly. Apparently, they represent same anthropological type.
The closest analogy to these skulls, up to the full morphological identity, is found primarily in the materials Chalcolithic times (collective burial Sezzhenskogo burial, the skull of Khvalynsk Gundorovskaya and cemeteries, pogr.1 Mellyatamakskogo III).
When comparing some characteristic traits of skulls, of which absolutely and relatively narrow forehead, narrow nose, straight forehead, a broad geographical and chronological (meso-Eneolithic) is fixed against the greatest concentration of these features within the territory of the forest and forest-steppe of the Volga-Urals (Khokhlov AA, 1996a). These, though few in number, these still provide the opportunity to suggest that in an era of eneolita on the territory of Ural steppe focus could be placed independent racial genesys.
[...]
New materials Early Neolithic times and overall analysis allow to supplement the characteristics of Eastern European (Uralic type), according Gokhman. For him, as characterized by a straight forehead, narrow nose, concave back of the nasal bones and the mandible gracile with slightly protruding chin. This craniological complex resembles one that is inherent in modern populations "suburalskoy" or "laponoidnoy" anthropological formation. Recall that for the most part, these populations belong to the Finno-Ugric peoples.
In favor of the hypothesis of the existence of an ancient anthropological formation, formed the basis of the formation of modern Finno-Ugric peoples, accumulated so many different facts, that the assumption that, at least the Neolithic antiquity of the reservoir becomes more reasonable. We do not yet have data on the physical type of the actual Mesolithic population of the Volga-Ural region, but the skull of the Samara Volga region dating back VII millennium BC., Lowered the time of origin of this particular anthropological formation to the upper borders of the Mesolithic time.
[...]
And its impact on Yamna:
Craniological materials Volga-Ural Khvalin time give an idea of ​​the possible existence of another independent source of racial genesys. In the age of the Chalcolithic here and in adjacent territories were complex processes of genetic interaction between anthropologically heterogeneous populations. As a result, these processes are eventually formed craniological complex, which is characterized by dolichocrania in combination with a low, not very wide and well-shaped facial skeleton. Moreover, one of the constituent components of this complex craniologically characterized by a narrow forehead, flattened in the horizontal profile persons, especially at the top level, flattening of the transfer area at the concave back of the nose, narrow and slightly protruding chin in profile. For the Early Bronze Age, this complex is manifested in the crania of the Yamnaya culture of the Volga-Urals region.

in the end:
It should be stated emphatically: accumulated over the past decade paleo-anthropological materials showed that cranial series of ancient times, about coming from the territory of the steppe and forest steppe zones of the East European Plain, does not fit into the idea of ​​a homogeneous "protoEuropoid" type. Even absolute width of the face, there are significant differences which sometimes occur not only between the groups, but also at the level of intra-group. Hypotheses about the anthropological unity of Eastern European populations of the Neolithic-Chalcolithic should be replaced with the concept of a complex anthropological structure (Alekseev VP, 1974, pp 206; Alekseev VP, I. Hochman, 1984, pp 43, Shevchenko AV, 1986, pp 145).

Greying Wanderer
12-07-15, 04:46
If SHG had EDAR they might have been the more Mongoloid ones via northern admixture rather than eastern?

Tomenable
11-10-15, 12:50
Now there are two Karelian EHGs - one with R1a and one with J (!):

Page 43:

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/10/10/016477.full.pdf

"In eastern Europe outside the steppe, a new individual from the Karelia region resembles the two previously published EHG individuals5 autosomally, but surprisingly belongs to Y-chromosome haplogroup J usually associated with Near Eastern populations (Supplementary Data Table 1)."

And also:http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5587-New-version-of-paper-of-Iain-Mathieson-Eight-thousand-years-of-natural-selection&p=113872&viewfull=1#post113872

Hunter-gatherer sample: Karelia Russia (n=1)
In this study we added another individual from the ~5500 BCE Mesolithic site Yuzhnyy
Oleni Ostrov (an island in Lake Onega) in Karelia, Western Russia, to the one reported in ref.
16. Mitochondrial data from seven other individuals from the same site have been described22.
• I0221 / UZ0040
MAE RAS collection number 5773-40, grave number 39/1. This is genetically male.

Tomenable
11-10-15, 13:02
Here is the link to new version of the paper (10 October 2015):

http://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/10/10/016477.abstract?%3Fcollection=

Finalise
11-10-15, 16:22
First mtDna H, now y-Dna J, in EHG. This is why genetics should take a conservative approach.

MOESAN
11-10-15, 19:58
Neolithic people were not borned in another planet - they were *descendants of HGs - the most from East mediterranea-Near Eastern, someones from more Northern areas after acculturation - the cocktail of mt DNA of today, considered as purely "neolithical", could a mixture of previously separated groups, with two directions ways of exchange, I think in Eastern Europe - ans some male "globe-trotters" could have fared very far from their bases too even if in small numbers

MOESAN
11-10-15, 20:13
The one on the right. The East Asian features in some skulls of the site makes sense, because the Karelia_HG had affinity to East Asians other Ancient West Eurasians lack. He was probably part East Asian/Siberian, but it was a very minor part of his ancestry.

none of these 2 types show too evident link with east-asian- and the right side one is more cromagnoid in features than 'east-asian'- but we are dealing with reconstructed fleshy parts of faces, not crania - the broad faced 'cromagnoid' type was apparently common enough among steppic people from Dniestr to Siberia, at high or between levels, even if these populations were not a completely homogenous block

MOESAN
11-10-15, 20:32
OK Angela, it's true at individual levels and can be verified more than a time, more easily in populations where very contrasted types are mixed together -
but at collective levels, the autosomes and phenotypes tend to cluster in statistics, if not at individual level, mixing or not - so we can try to figure out the most common (even diverse) features among an ancient populations, here EHG -

arvistro
11-10-15, 21:41
none of these 2 types show too evident link with east-asian- and the right side one is more cromagnoid in features than 'east-asian'- but we are dealing with reconstructed fleshy parts of faces, not crania - the broad faced 'cromagnoid' type was apparently common enough among steppic people from Dniestr to Siberia, at high or between levels, even if these populations were not a completely homogenous block
And here some skulls of R1a boy


PS could give you a pic and description of other karelian EHG, previously tested R1a, from Haak et al. 2015




http://www.kunstkamera.ru/files/lib/mae_xix/mae_xix_06.pdf


6271
http://f-picture.net/fp/d24e4d885bc840319a3e96393a5d2f89
http://f-picture.net/fp/6c23b0a472b64f2796457160e697bf86
http://f-picture.net/fp/99c8ce96499d4672b855ba9cf245e4be

Kristiina
11-10-15, 22:17
Angela, I googled for Cheyenne Indians and I really cannot find any resemblance between them and Mika Häkkinen. For example, Red Armed Panther (http://allphots.net/html/About-us.html) has a very broad face and quite wide eyes and broad nose while in Mika Häkkinen's face everything is quite small: face, eyes and nose. Also Cheyenne medicine man (https://www.pinterest.com/bellauthor/zizistascheyenne/) has the same very broad characteristics as Red Armed Panther.

I have seen reconstructions of WHG faces and I recall that they were also broad. So, the man on the left could belong to the race of broad faced North Eurasians.

arvistro
12-10-15, 11:20
The J man was found to be not Uralic. From text it seems he was proto-Euro guy with massive facial features.

One note - both J and R1a were labeled as women by Soviet anthropologysts.

Sigfrido
12-10-15, 11:30
But but but wasn't J an Iron Age Etruscan haplogroup? Where is that Semitic Duwa when you need him?

Kristiina
12-10-15, 16:54
Of course, there are "Mesolithic" broad faced and strong guys in Finland. This man is a much better example of that type than Mika Häkkinen who surely has a lot of Neolithic farmer contribution in his face: http://strongestman.billhenderson.org/bios/riku.html

So, do you know what J man and R1a man were like? Was either of them reconstructed in the pictures above?

Fire Haired14
12-10-15, 20:07
Of course, there are "Mesolithic" broad faced and strong guys in Finland. This man is a much better example of that type than Mika Häkkinen who surely has a lot of Neolithic farmer contribution in his face: http://strongestman.billhenderson.org/bios/riku.html

So, do you know what J man and R1a man were like? Was either of them reconstructed in the pictures above?

Were Mesolithic men all tall, muscular, and braod faced or whatever? And were all Neolithic Near Easterns smaller and weaker? I've read the narrative of small weak farmers against super macho cavemen. I doubt it is true at all. I don't understand the image of weak nerdy farmers and the noble savage hunter gatherers.

Anyways, the farmers won!! Farmers literally took over Europe. By 2800 BC they were still some 70% Anatolian. The native population left little impact.

Middle Eastern men don't have an effeminate reputation at all LOL.
https://creepingsharia.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/rageboy.jpg

arvistro
12-10-15, 20:28
Of course, there are "Mesolithic" broad faced and strong guys in Finland. This man is a much better example of that type than Mika Häkkinen who surely has a lot of Neolithic farmer contribution in his face: http://strongestman.billhenderson.org/bios/riku.html

So, do you know what J man and R1a man were like? Was either of them reconstructed in the pictures above?
Mika was used as example of Uralic looking EHG R1a.
This guy you mentioned could be used as example of Meso Euro looking EHG J.
Both autosomally EHG.

Goga
12-10-15, 20:59
Middle Eastern men don't have an effeminate reputation at all LOL.
https://creepingsharia.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/rageboy.jpgHe is Pakistani, SouthEast Asian, heavily mixed with Dravidians. So, not 'Middle Eastern' at all.

Kristiina
12-10-15, 21:04
Arvistro, I agree that Riku Kiri looks very EHG and Mesolithic but in my opinion Mika is Finnic and not so much Uralic. Fnns have quite a lot of European Neolithic farmer ancestry (c. 33-35%) and Volga Ural people are more Yamnaya like.

Krefter, you are free to believe it or not, but according to Fig 4 this new paper hunter gatherers were taller than farmers:
http://i.imgur.com/iXf0b7z.png
Also Michael Hermanussen claims that “Late Upper Palaeolithic males (8000-6600 BC) were of medium stature and robusticity while stature further decreased to below 165 cm with estimated average body weight of 64 kg in Neolithic males of the Linear Band Pottery Culture”

http://www.hormones.gr/127/article/article.html

As for broadness of face, on Dienekes’ blog it is posted that “the major shape differences separating hunter-gatherer Mesolithic populations and farming Neolithic populations are coded by PC1 with Neolithic specimens having longer and taller vaults, and Mesolithic specimens having larger, and broader faces. … How the robust, low-skulled, broad-faced hunter-gatherers became more high-skulled, narrow-faced and gracile?”

http://dienekes.blogspot.lu/2012/03/cranial-variation-and-transition-to.html

and in The Most Ancient Population of Latvia, it is said that “differences in facial width in Europe became particularly distinctive at the beginning of the Atlantic period, when farming was begun in Europe. At this time, facial width distinctly separated morphological forms in Northern Europe from those in the Mediterranean region -- two distinct geographic regions. Massive, broad-faced morphological forms dominated in northern and northeastern Europe, while gracile, narrow-faced forms are found most often in Middle Europe and the continent's southeastern reaches. During the Atlantic period, narrow-faced populations gradually moved in the northerly and northeasterly direction. They reached the Baltic region only during the Bronze Age. For this reason, during the Mesolithic and Neolithic period, people in the Baltic region (and surrounding regions) had broad faces, a fact which affirms their links to the late Paleolithic populations of Europe.”

Of course, there is a difference between looking like an angel and behaving like a bull and looking like a bull and behaving like a human.

I have always been more attracted by a man's brain than sheer physical power but I respect Riku Kiri's dimensions: height - 194 cm
weight - 150 kg, breast width - 150 cm.

Angela
12-10-15, 22:49
Does anyone have actual heights for comparison? I like specificity. :) Oetzi was 5'5", yes? I thought I read that the steppe people were about 5' 7 or 8". What's the big wups?

Going by the paper, the Anatolian farmers were actually slightly taller on average than the farmers in Europe, I think. The authors seem to think that there was actually selection going on for a decrease in height in Neolithic Spain, at least.

There's no absolute value in being taller or having massive body and facial bones. It all boils down to adaptation to environment. It's been a long time since I took physical anthropology, but I thought it was pretty accepted that broad, bony faces and thickset, stocky bodies were better for cold climates. If you're living in a warmer climate, less fat is better, so are lighter bones. Someone with the body build and coloring of those men and carrying that kind of weight would pass out from one day of heavy exertion in the Mediterranean during the summer. They might not even last the day. That doesn't mean that Mediterranean type men aren't muscular. In fact, it's been my experience that they muscle easier than a lot of northern European men, but I'm not an expert on the matter; just repeating what I've seen and heard. It does make sense though that they would have had to have been able to muscle up pretty quickly. After all, clearing fields of rocks, felling trees, and building houses out of stone require long, back breaking hours of labor.

None of this has anything to do with "masculinity" either. That's a function of testosterone levels. Nothing wrong with the testosterone levels of "southern" men. I'm pretty certain about that one.:)

Nor does it have anything to do with mental toughness.

As for battle, an ox of a man might indeed have had an advantage when people were yielding battle axes, but a well placed arrow can still fell him. Except for a few occasions the smaller Romans didn't seem to have all that much trouble defeating the Celts and the Germans in battle even in the days when most of their troops came from the peninsula itself. Later on, heavy armor made northern armies more impervious to arrows etc. Even then, however, the Arabs, with their lighter horses and less heavy cavalry, but with better strategy and mounted bowmen (and certainly at least equal toughness) slaughtered the brawny, heavily armored Christian knights a number of times during the Crusades. (I just remembered...Saladin was a Kurd, wasn't he?) It may not be what some people want to hear but truth is truth.

Anyway, it's all academic now...not much need for huge, overgrown men to lift big boulders anymore or swing an ax.

As for attractiveness, it's all very subjective, and largely culturally driven, I guess, as we discussed on another thread. To each their own. I'll leave it at that.

arvistro
12-10-15, 23:29
Does anyone have actual heights for comparison? I like specificity. :) Oetzi was 5'5", yes? I thought I read that the steppe people were about 5' 7 or 8". What's the big wups?

I think Steppe is not WHG... Steppe is where I would intuitively search for Alpine (Short, massive folk) possibly with Uralic/Eastern features, EEF I would put as short, gracile. WHG tall, massive. But dont take me for granted.

Muscles, character and attractiveness I think depends on person :)

Angela
13-10-15, 00:22
I think Steppe is not WHG... Steppe is where I would intuitively search for Alpine (Short, massive folk) possibly with Uralic/Eastern features, EEF I would put as short, gracile. WHG tall, massive. But dont take me for granted.

Muscles, character and attractiveness I think depends on person :)


I think Steppe is not WHG... Steppe is where I would intuitively search for Alpine (Short, massive folk) possibly with Uralic/Eastern features, EEF I would put as short, gracile. WHG tall, massive. But dont take me for granted.

Muscles, character and attractiveness I think depends on person :)

Ok, you're right. That was a sloppy comparison. How tall were the WHG then, or the Karelia EHG? We've got a 5'5 EEF, and a 5'7 or 5'8 Steppe-Yamnaya person, yes, just as averages?

As to your latter comment, I definitely don't think toughness of character is determined by "ethnicity". I'm sorry if it sounded like I was implying the opposite. As to male musculature, I'm sure you think I have a nerve talking about it. :) I was just repeating "gym talk". Hardly scientific.

As for attractiveness, I do think someone's perception of it is in part genetically determined, and in part culturally determined, as we discussed in another thread. What is "attractive" to me may very well not be "attractive" to someone from another part of Europe, and vice versa. It doesn't make my "ideal" objectively more "attractive" than the ideal of someone from, I don't know, Finland, since those are the pictures that have been posted. I certainly meant no disrespect to them.

Finalise
13-10-15, 02:21
I don't get one thing. If these people in the steppe have supposedly lived in the same place for thousands of years, why would they need to get wives from other places? If an all-male group migrated to a foreign place, I can see it, but native people replacing their entire matrilineal lineage with foreign women?

Fire Haired14
13-10-15, 04:18
Arvistro, I agree that Riku Kiri looks very EHG and Mesolithic but in my opinion Mika is Finnic and not so much Uralic. Fnns have quite a lot of European Neolithic farmer ancestry (c. 33-35%) and Volga Ural people are more Yamnaya like.

Krefter, you are free to believe it or not, but according to Fig 4 this new paper hunter gatherers were taller than farmers:
http://i.imgur.com/iXf0b7z.png
Also Michael Hermanussen claims that “Late Upper Palaeolithic males (8000-6600 BC) were of medium stature and robusticity while stature further decreased to below 165 cm with estimated average body weight of 64 kg in Neolithic males of the Linear Band Pottery Culture”

http://www.hormones.gr/127/article/article.html

As for broadness of face, on Dienekes’ blog it is posted that “the major shape differences separating hunter-gatherer Mesolithic populations and farming Neolithic populations are coded by PC1 with Neolithic specimens having longer and taller vaults, and Mesolithic specimens having larger, and broader faces. … How the robust, low-skulled, broad-faced hunter-gatherers became more high-skulled, narrow-faced and gracile?”

http://dienekes.blogspot.lu/2012/03/cranial-variation-and-transition-to.html

and in The Most Ancient Population of Latvia, it is said that “differences in facial width in Europe became particularly distinctive at the beginning of the Atlantic period, when farming was begun in Europe. At this time, facial width distinctly separated morphological forms in Northern Europe from those in the Mediterranean region -- two distinct geographic regions. Massive, broad-faced morphological forms dominated in northern and northeastern Europe, while gracile, narrow-faced forms are found most often in Middle Europe and the continent's southeastern reaches. During the Atlantic period, narrow-faced populations gradually moved in the northerly and northeasterly direction. They reached the Baltic region only during the Bronze Age. For this reason, during the Mesolithic and Neolithic period, people in the Baltic region (and surrounding regions) had broad faces, a fact which affirms their links to the late Paleolithic populations of Europe.”

Of course, there is a difference between looking like an angel and behaving like a bull and looking like a bull and behaving like a human.

I have always been more attracted by a man's brain than sheer physical power but I respect Riku Kiri's dimensions: height - 194 cm
weight - 150 kg, breast width - 150 cm.

If the facts show Mesolithic Europeans were bigger than I agree. I'll agree with whatever the facts show, I just don't want any assumptions that aren't based on facts. I've seen other posters do that.

arvistro
13-10-15, 07:17
Ok, you're right. That was a sloppy comparison. How tall were the WHG then, or the Karelia EHG? We've got a 5'5 EEF, and a 5'7 or 5'8 Steppe-Yamnaya person, yes, just as averages?

As to your latter comment, I definitely don't think toughness of character is determined by "ethnicity". I'm sorry if it sounded like I was implying the opposite. As to male musculature, I'm sure you think I have a nerve talking about it. :) I was just repeating "gym talk". Hardly scientific.

As for attractiveness, I do think someone's perception of it is in part genetically determined, and in part culturally determined, as we discussed in another thread. What is "attractive" to me may very well not be "attractive" to someone from another part of Europe, and vice versa. It doesn't make my "ideal" objectively more "attractive" than the ideal of someone from, I don't know, Finland, since those are the pictures that have been posted. I certainly meant no disrespect to them.
Again just my intuition - the EHG R1a was not tall. He had this Mongoloid or more precise Lappid touch. The EHG J could be tall, he looked Euro Meso. But then - they both were labeled as girls, so possibly were not seen as that tall :)
Will try to check for exact estimates.

____
Just a note I am not taking sides in tallness talks - Latvians are tall on average, but I am not tall myself. Looking like your average Austrian Alpine :)

bicicleur
13-10-15, 08:41
in these days height and posture were depending on food resources
our DNA gives us the potential - or not - to grow tall and/or broad
but it depends on food during our growth period (till adolescence) whether we actually will use that potential or not
steppe people and Germans and Celts lived on dairy - they grew tall
Romans lived on cereals (and wine poisonned by lead)
in a one to one battle with a Celt or a German a Roman would have lost the battle
but the Roman legions were well-trained and disciplined fighting machines who always stayed in formation
the Celts were loose bands always going for personal honour and glory, which was more important to them than their own life

Angela
13-10-15, 16:08
Again just my intuition - the EHG R1a was not tall. He had this Mongoloid or more precise Lappid touch. The EHG J could be tall, he looked Euro Meso. But then - they both were labeled as girls, so possibly were not seen as that tall :)
Will try to check for exact estimates.

____
Just a note I am not taking sides in tallness talks - Latvians are tall on average, but I am not tall myself. Looking like your average Austrian Alpine :)

It would be great if you could find some for EHG and WHG as well. I've read all sorts of broad statements, but no actual data for comparison.

Goodness, height isn't something to "take sides" over. :) Nowadays the media tells us all what to prefer. It used to be much more driven by "local" cultural norms. My mom was 5'6" tall. That was taller than the average Italian woman of her area and generation and she didn't like it. (Of course, my father's mother was 5'11", but that area was an anomaly.) I'm the same height, and I wanted to look like a model so I would have killed for an extra four inches in height. It's all sort of silly, right?

My interest is purely academic. Well, I'll admit that I don't like the kind of sub-text that I have discovered exists around the subject either. My interest in population genetics has opened my eyes to all sorts of novel, to me, ways of looking at the world and other people.

arvistro
13-10-15, 20:37
Mother Google could not find me any data on heights, if I ever stumble on such data by accident in some Russian sources, I will post here :)

Angela
13-10-15, 22:20
I always turn to Dienekes' website first when I'm trying to find a paper, et voila'! :)
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/02/mesolithic-mtdna-haplogroup-u5a-from.html

I think we may have to revise our mental images here. WHG/Loschbour may have been "robust", but he was only 1.6 meters in height.

The internet website articles on Oetzi variably say 1.65 or 5.5.

Now we just need the Karelia EHG folks.

Angela
13-10-15, 22:39
Hold on, I just saw this...

"Kurgan 4 at Kutuluk near Samara (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samara,_Russia), Russia, dated to c. 24th century BC, contains the skeleton of a man, estimated to have been 35 to 40 years old and about 152 cm tall."

HUH?

I just tried to go back to the Supplementary Info for the paper, and I can't access #3. It's telling me the file is corrupted.

Can anyone get in and check what heights they were giving for these men on the steppe? I mean Yamnaya, not Sintashta.

Did they include Oetzi in the Neolithic data?

This is not making sense to me. They may be aggregating the data incorrectly.

arvistro
13-10-15, 22:42
Dienekes mentioned Steppe as 1.75 in some other source, but can't find that source anymore.
So, I was wrong re Steppe, seems they were the tall ones. But need to find that Dienekes post again.

edit:
he he, I was writing my reply before your post. So, hmm. Confusing.

Angela
14-10-15, 04:15
I always turn to Dienekes' website first when I'm trying to find a paper, et voila'! :)
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/02/mesolithic-mtdna-haplogroup-u5a-from.html

I think we may have to revise our mental images here. WHG/Loschbour may have been "robust", but he was only 1.6 meters in height.

The internet website articles on Oetzi variably say 1.65 or 5.5.

Now we just need the Karelia EHG folks.

I couldn't find Karelia statistics, but Arvistro was right about the height of the steppe people, so the Wiki article contains a misprint perhaps?

As per Haak et al as quoted by Dienekes...
"The Yamna population generally belongs to the European race. It was tall (175.5cm), dolichocephalic, with broad faces of medium height. Among them there were, however, more robust elements with high and wide faces of the proto-Europoid type, and also more gracile individuals with narrow and high faces, probably reflecting contacts with the East Mediterranean type (Kurts 1984: 90)."

So, about 5'2-3, to 5'4-5, to 5'7-8?

I know, I'm like a dog with a bone. Until I get the answer, I can't quit.

MOESAN
16-10-15, 22:43
Mika Hakkinen seems influenced by a little bit of something 'east-asian'like, but it is very light, as very often among Finns of Finland (often too, this component doesn't appear, as among Western Finns); the others trends are "europoid", some among them some kind of partly brachycephalized 'brünnoid' (HG), kind of my "borreby B"; a mix all the way as very often everyplace. that said 'east-asian' is a generic term, they are not all of them as typical, as it occurs for other types (and auDNA). and the east-asian part of Fnnic-Ugric (Uralic part) people was a "attenuated" 'mongoloid' type; not extremely evolved;
analysis of phoenotypical features is always complicated because of crossings;
concerning hte N-E Europe people with smoother features, I recall Coon thought a mix where 'mediterranean danubian' (EEF? YG2?) was heavy, colonized Eastern Europe and played a role in the genesis of 'East-Baltic' people (Poland, Belarus and others); the 'danubian type', surely rather pigmented for hair and eyes, had a profil (vaguely pedomorphic) very different from the more ruggy and crooknosed 'cappadocian' or 'irano-afghan' types, and it had a very high cranial vault with almost vertical forehead and short not too prominent nose.

Kristiina
18-10-15, 12:01
In genetic terms East Asian (ENA) is a vague concept as is West Asian. East Asian covers Onge type, Papuan in Australia and Indonesia, Southern Mongoloid, Northern Mongoloid as well as Beringian and Amerind types and it entails more than 80 000 years of evolution and history if Chinese researchers are right in their claims. Moreover, the border line between ANE and ENA is not clear at all although in principle, ANE should be derived from India/Central Asia and ENA from East Asia. In addition, I am also pretty sure that there has been Mesolithic geneflow from Central Asia to China.

On top of this, there is also quite a lot of variation in West Eurasia: cfr.
an Estonian man (http://mutityts.com/2013/11/04/the-real-estonian-man/);
a Berber man (http://travel.nationalgeographic.com/travel/traveler-magazine/photo-contest/2012/entries/144353/view/)
a Tamili man (https://www.flickr.com/photos/vegeyum/4485148080)

Siberian features in modern Finns are surely eyes with the outer corner of the eye going upwards and probably also a small nose.

By the way, have you seen Xiaohe Yingpan Man mask? He is one of the tallest mummies and was buried in elaborate silk clothing and white mask with a gold forehead band. http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/yingpan_man.jpg
http://blog.hmns.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/80_Yingpan-Detail_Silk-Road.jpg
In my eyes the mask looks quite Siberian. The mask has small slanted eyes and high cheekbones.

Kristiina
18-10-15, 21:52
I forgot from the list Negritos, Tibetans, Taiwanese Aboriginals and Ainus. In my eyes, all the above mentioned groups look different. I would say that the human prehistory in East Asia must be very old, probably much older than in Europe, and the Near East has been repopulated several times.

MOESAN
23-10-15, 13:38
I red a lot of approximations here concerning features and evolution* of features ( *: a "political" subject in "science")
I can give my modest point if a thread is open in athropology - just some ideas here:
- today metrics abstracts give US very low informative descriptions of populations, means of measures based not upon whole humanity range to create means criteria , but upon the range of the selected populations of every survey, and without report or tentatives of typology, reliable or not
- there was not something like ONE HGs population: 2 very opposed types concerning faces and crania were mixed in Europe at mesolithic time, with local distributions of diversely balanced crossings and some beginnings of evolution
- today diversity cannot be explained by climateonly, far of that