PDA

View Full Version : Indo-European package.



LeBrok
04-07-15, 20:09
Before Indo-Europeans expended from their homeland they had developed full IE package. They had horses, a wheel and wagon, religion, language, kurgans, etc. Some of the IE cultural aspects were not developed locally and were assimilated from bordering cultures. Probably most of the IE aspects came via farmers from the south.



The question is where these elements came from?

I guess we can assume that farming came from Cucuteni.
Domesticated cows from Anatolia, or were they local cows?
Bronze from Mykop/Anatolia?
Religion-Kurgans, was it farmer of HG continuity?
Language of R1b? If yes then where the R1b came from, East Anatolia as Maciamo proposing, or European Steppe?
Horses and horse riding R1b or R1a hunter gatherers/pastoralists of the Steppe?
Pottery, Cucuteni or even more ancient farmers of Balkans?
The wheel and wagon, Anatolia, Mesopotamia, Balkans?
Chariot, Yamnaya?
Bronze weapons, Yamnaya or Mykop?
Feel free to expand the list.

They seemed to be a full hybrid of new Euro-Asiatic citizen, genetically and culturally well mixed farmers and hunter-gatherers who roamed the steppe. For that reason very adaptable, mobile and unstoppable to live from Arctic Circle to the Tropics and from semi-desert to the monsoons of India.

Ike
04-07-15, 20:25
One thing bothers me. If farming is from Cucuteni, and domestication from Anatolia, how do we have EEF map (http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Neolithic_farmer_admixture.png) as it is?

Alan
04-07-15, 22:15
Before Indo-Europeans expended from their homeland they had developed full IE package. They had horses, a wheel and wagon, religion, language, kurgans, etc. Some of the IE cultural aspects were not developed locally and were assimilated from bordering cultures. Probably most of the IE aspects came via farmers from the south.



The question is where these elements came from?

I guess we can assume that farming came from Cucuteni.
Domesticated cows from Anatolia, or were they local cows?
Bronze from Mykop/Anatolia?
Religion-Kurgans, was it farmer of HG continuity?
Language of R1b? If yes then where the R1b came from, East Anatolia as Maciamo proposing, or European Steppe?
Horses and horse riding R1b or R1a hunter gatherers/pastoralists of the Steppe?
Pottery, Cucuteni or even more ancient farmers of Balkans?
The wheel and wagon, Anatolia, Mesopotamia, Balkans?
Chariot, Yamnaya?
Bronze weapons, Yamnaya or Mykop?
Feel free to expand the list.

They seemed to be a full hybrid of new Euro-Asiatic citizen, genetically and culturally well mixed farmers and hunter-gatherers who roamed the steppe. For that reason very adaptable, mobile and unstoppable to live from Arctic Circle to the Tropics and from semi-desert to the monsoons of India.

Domestication somewhere in the Zagros_Albroz mountains/Mesopotamia via Maykop together with Bronze. Farming from Anatolia via Cucuteni.

LeBrok
05-07-15, 02:05
One thing bothers me. If farming is from Cucuteni, and domestication from Anatolia, how do we have EEF map (http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Neolithic_farmer_admixture.png) as it is?
Because, most likely EEF came about in Anatolia from mixture of ENF and WHG. We thought it happened in Europe, but most likely in Anatolia.

LeBrok
05-07-15, 20:21
Is this the oldest Kurgan ever?

Ipatovo kurgan refers to kurgan 2 of the Ipatovo Barrow Cemetery 3, a cemetery of kurgan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan) burial mounds, located near the town of Ipatovo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipatovo,_Stavropol_Krai) in Stavropol Krai (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stavropol_Krai), Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia), some 120 kilometers (75 mi) northeast of Stavropol (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stavropol).
With a height of 7 meters (23 ft), it was one of the largest kurgans in the area. It was completely investigated in 1998–1999, revealing thirteen phases of construction and use, from the 4th millennium BC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_millennium_BC)E to the 18th century.
The first grave may have been a burial of the Maykop culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture), which was destroyed by later graves. The earliest extant grave contained two young people, buried in a sitting position, dating to the late 4th millennium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipatovo_kurgan

Does this mean that Kurgan/religion came from Maykop?

arvistro
05-07-15, 22:59
I am not sure if PIE had bronze already.

This is about Corded Ware:
The Corded Ware culture (German (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language): Schnurkeramik; French (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language): ceramique cordée; Dutch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_language): snoerbekercultuur;[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture#cite_note-1) in Middle Europe c. 2900–2450/2350 cal. BC),[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture#cite_note-2) alternatively characterized as the Battle Axe culture or Single Grave culture, is an enormous European archaeological horizon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeological_horizon) that begins in the late Neolithic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic) (Stone Age (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Age)), flourishes through the Copper Age (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalcolithic) and culminates in the early Bronze Age (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age).

So, CW started Neolithic... And IE was then already branched..most likely :)

LeBrok
06-07-15, 00:17
I am not sure if PIE had bronze already.

This is about Corded Ware:
The Corded Ware culture (German (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language): Schnurkeramik; French (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language): ceramique cordée; Dutch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_language): snoerbekercultuur;[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture#cite_note-1) in Middle Europe c. 2900–2450/2350 cal. BC),[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture#cite_note-2) alternatively characterized as the Battle Axe culture or Single Grave culture, is an enormous European archaeological horizon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeological_horizon) that begins in the late Neolithic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic) (Stone Age (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Age)), flourishes through the Copper Age (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalcolithic) and culminates in the early Bronze Age (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age).

So, CW started Neolithic... And IE was then already branched..most likely :)

Cored Ware was an offspring of NW Yamnaya. Bronze reached them the latest.

Alan
06-07-15, 00:54
Is this the oldest Kurgan ever?

Ipatovo kurgan refers to kurgan 2 of the Ipatovo Barrow Cemetery 3, a cemetery of kurgan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan) burial mounds, located near the town of Ipatovo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipatovo,_Stavropol_Krai) in Stavropol Krai (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stavropol_Krai), Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia), some 120 kilometers (75 mi) northeast of Stavropol (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stavropol).
With a height of 7 meters (23 ft), it was one of the largest kurgans in the area. It was completely investigated in 1998–1999, revealing thirteen phases of construction and use, from the 4th millennium BC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_millennium_BC)E to the 18th century.
The first grave may have been a burial of the Maykop culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture), which was destroyed by later graves. The earliest extant grave contained two young people, buried in a sitting position, dating to the late 4th millennium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipatovo_kurgan

Does this mean that Kurgan/religion came from Maykop?

It does not only mean, it is :)

I thought this was a wide known and accepted fact. Just years ago a paper came out how the oldest Kurgans are from Laila Tepe and obviously influenced by cultures of Mesopotamia and Northwest Iran.

LeBrok
06-07-15, 03:46
It does not only mean, it is :)

I thought this was a wide known and accepted fact. Just years ago a paper came out how the oldest Kurgans are from Laila Tepe and obviously influenced by cultures of Mesopotamia and Northwest Iran.
Can't find any info about Leyla-Tepe kurgans, or anything much about this place. I think it is in Syria and was dug up by Russian archaeologists. I need some help. :)

LeBrok
06-07-15, 03:53
Cows and wheel/wagon could get to Yamnaya through Cucuteni, not exclusively through Maykop.

This is Cucuteni art from around 4000-3500 BC.
https://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/cucuteni3950-3650.png?w=500
https://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/11/19/just-when-was-the-wheel-invented-and-by-whom/

Alan
06-07-15, 04:27
Can't find any info about Leyla-Tepe kurgans, or anything much about this place. I think it is in Syria and was dug up by Russian archaeologists. I need some help. :)

It is in modern day Azerbaijan and Northwest Iran.


The Leyla-Tepe culture includes a settlement in the lower layer of the settlements Poilu I, Poilu II, Boyuk-Kesik I and Boyuk-Kesik II. They apparently buried their dead in ceramic vessels.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla-Tepe_culture#cite_note-.D0.90.D0.90-1) Similar amphora burials in the South Caucasus are found in the Western Georgian Jar-Burial Culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jar-Burial_Culture). The culture has also been linked to the north Ubaid period (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubaid_period) monuments,[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla-Tepe_culture#cite_note-.D0.93.D1.83.D0.BF-2) in particular, with the settlements in the Eastern Anatolia Region (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Anatolia_Region) (Arslan-tepe, Coruchu-tepe, Tepechik, etc.). The settlement is of a typical Western-Asian variety, with the dwellings packed closely together and made of mud bricks with smoke outlets. It has been suggested that the Leyla-Tepe were the founders of the Maykop culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture). An expedition to Syria by the Russian Academy of Sciences (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Academy_of_Sciences) revealed the similarity of the Maykop and Leyla-Tepe artifacts with those found recently while excavating the ancient city of Tel Khazneh I, from the 4th millennium BC.[ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla-Tepe_culture#cite_note-3)


As far as I know proto Kurgan graves have been found in Leyla-Tepe too.

arvistro
06-07-15, 08:50
Cored Ware was an offspring of NW Yamnaya. Bronze reached them the latest.
Point is that PIE did not have bronze already. They learned bronze when already were branched.
If we talk IE then yes.

LeBrok
06-07-15, 16:12
Point is that PIE did not have bronze already. They learned bronze when already were branched.
If we talk IE then yes.
They were only a part of bigger IE group.

arvistro
06-07-15, 17:13
And yet they expanded before bronze. So, only Southern expansions were due to bronze. Khm, which Southern?

Unetice also started expansion before bronze. Indo Iranians branched from Corded (which did not have bronze before that) hm...

OK, bronze was learned after the initially expansion and branching off. It seems to me bronze was only accelerator but not the impulse.

Although I am not so strong in this subject. Which were the first IE expansions that happened due to bronze usage?

Taranis
06-07-15, 17:17
Point is that PIE did not have bronze already. They learned bronze when already were branched.
If we talk IE then yes.

I must say, the situation is somewhat ambiguous there: unlike, say, the word for "wheel" or "wheeled vehicle" (which we do have for most IE branches) where the situation is very clear-cut, the terminology for bronze or copper (or more vaguely, "metal") is a lot less decisive:

- The root *H2eyos is attested for Germanic, Italic and Indo-Iranic.
- For Germanic, you have English "ore", Gothic "aiz" - 'bronze', antiquated German "ehern" - 'tough, resilient, made of metal', modern German "Erz" - 'ore').
- Latin has "aes" (bronze).
- Sanskrit has "ayas" ('iron'), Kurdish "asin" ('iron'), modern Persian "ahan" ('iron').

Then you do have the very similar roots *ghelǵ- (for Balto-Slavic) and *ghelk- (for Greek), which however are not regular to each other:
- Latvian "dzelzs", Lithuanian "geležies", Polish "żelazo", Russian "zhelezo" or "железо" (which all mean 'iron').
- Greek has "chalkos" or "χαλκος" (copper).

Angela
06-07-15, 18:55
There was actually regression in certain Corded areas in terms of metal use. Some of the areas bordering on the MN sites had copper tools, and then there was a reversion to stone ones. I'll try to find the paper.

We know that metallurgy came to the steppe from elsewhere. David Anthony is clear that the first copper in the steppe cultures was imported from the Neolithic/Copper Age cultures of Europe. The first efforts by the steppe people to duplicate the process were very primitive. I think the Bronze came by way of Maykop.

I remember reading that there was controversy over the dating of the first Kurgan because there was one north of the Caucasus and one just south of it which had very similar dates. I'll try to find that paper. I don't remember seeing any paper for the Leyla Tepe claim. There were similar artifacts, yes, but I didn't see anything about actual kurgans.

I was able to find this one on the wheel quickly in my files. It's 2012 so its pretty current. The early thinking was it was created in Mesopotamia, then some people thought northern Pontic shore of the Black Sea, then Baden culture. This researcher, after looking at all the finds again, waffles and says it might have arisen in a few places simultaneously.
http://www.academia.edu/1817159/Prehistoric_Wagon_Models_in_the_Carpathian_Basin_3 500-1500_BC_._Archaeolingua._Budapest_2012._Series_Min or_32_

However, when the discussion gets down to the details, there's this:
"The first comprehensive overview of Copper Age wheel models was written by Marin Dinu in his study on the wheelfinds of the Cucuteni, Gumelniţa and Petresţi cultures, all dating from before the 4thmillennium (DINU1981). Dinu pointed out that the use of wheeled vehicles could thus be dated much earlier than previously assumed, but his opinion was not widely accepted. However,the radiocarbon dates for the miniature wheels from Jebel Aruda in Syria and Arslantepe in Turkey confirmed Dinu’s views because these wheel models were roughly contemporaneous with the wheels incised on the renowned Bronocice vessel, and thus they predated the earliest wagon models (BAKKER et al.1999,781)."

There's also this interesting tidbit:
"In 2001 Gabon Ilon published a fragmentary clay wheel model brought to light that Szombathely-Metroáruház, a settlement of the late Lengyel–Balaton–Lasinj aculture, yet another find predating the generally accepted earliest appearance of wagons (ILON2001, 476, Pl. I), a date which was at the time received with disbelief."

I've read before that a movement of dairy farmers from northwest Anatolia has been posited as the source of these second wave Neolithic cultures. i think it would make sense that cattle herders who were also potters familiar with the potters' wheel might have come to see that their oxen could provide transport as well as food and clothing, whether that leap was made in Late Neolithic Europe or in Anatolia/Mesopotamia.

I think that the difficulty in dating arises from the fact that once someone came up with the idea its utility was obvious and there were existing trade routes to spread the idea quickly.

The author also makes this important point...

"It seems quite certain that major innovations appeared or were adopted in regions where there was a social demand for them. It has recently been suggested that the wagon was an innovation inspired by economic necessity and that its extensive use can only be observed in regions where there was a socio-economic need for wheeled vehicles."

In a rapidly drying out and colder steppe where their newly acquired domesticated animals needed to be moved to graze, it would seem to me you had the economic necessity and a rapid adoption of wheeled carts even if they didn't originate the idea.

This doesn't change the fact that the word for wheel would have been present in these people's languages (except for Anatolian?) before they expanded.

As for actual war chariots, there's no indication of them before 2,000 BC, so it had nothing to do with the initial Corded expansions into Europe.

Angela
07-07-15, 03:37
This is the paper which proposed that the kurgans were first developed by the Maykop culture via influence from the Uruk expansion. It's from 2012. I don't know if there's anything more recent. http://www.science.org.ge/moambe/6-2/153-161%20Pitskhelauri.pdf

Maciamo discussed it here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28632-More-evidence-that-the-PIE-R1b-people-originated-in-the-Maykop-culture?highlight=kurgans

Angela
07-07-15, 15:27
This is the paper which proposed that the kurgans were first developed by the Maykop culture via influence from the Uruk expansion. It's from 2012. I don't know if there's anything more recent. http://www.science.org.ge/moambe/6-2/153-161%20Pitskhelauri.pdf

Maciamo discussed it here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28632-More-evidence-that-the-PIE-R1b-people-originated-in-the-Maykop-culture?highlight=kurgans

This is the abstract of the paper:
"At the end of the 5 and in the 4 millennia B.C. large masses of Uruk migrants had settled in the South, and later in the North Caucasus. Assimilation of cultures of the newcomers and residents, as a result, caused their "explosive" development paving the way to the formation of the Maikop culture in the North Caucasus and the Kura-Araxes culture in the South Caucasus."

The Uruk culture is a Mesopotamian culture from the area of Sumer.
He bases his conclusions largely on the sudden appearance of metal and ceramics artifacts of high quality showing signs of Mesopotamian origin and then Maykop artifacts which derive from them.

The author posits that the impetus for the migration, which he claims was not an elite one but a mass movement of people, while it probably had to do with overpopulation and other factors, was also motivated by the demand of these Mesopotamian cultures for metals.

Interestingly, he proposes two routes for the migration, one of which is from eastern Anatolia toward the northwest future center of Maykop, and one from Iran toward the northeast Caucasus.

He then reviews the position held by some that although there was Uruk influence flowing north, there was then a reverse movement south bringing with it the "kurgan" type of burial.

However, he maintains that, " At present the situation has changed drastically. On the basis of a whole series of radiocarbon analyses, it has been proved [15, 82] that burial mounds of the ancient pit-grave culture are of a significantly later period in comparison with Maikop archaeological sites."

I don't know if this duel over dating has continued. I don't know if it matters, really. The custom grew out of the increasing social stratification which arose from the possession first of agricultural surplus, and then of metals, both of which took place in Mesopotamia (and in Neolithic southeast Europe). The mound burials arose in this context and under this influence from Maikop.

Rethel
07-07-15, 19:51
"At the end of the 5 and in the 4 millennia B.C. large masses of Uruk migrants had settled in the South, and later in the North Caucasus. Assimilation of cultures of the newcomers and residents, as a result, caused their "explosive" development paving the way to the formation of the Maikop culture in the North Caucasus and the Kura-Araxes culture in the South Caucasus.

So what? Euphratean-language-concept would be correct? Urheimat in Sumer :rolleyes2:

Angela
07-07-15, 20:27
So what? Euphratean-language-concept would be correct? Urheimat in Sumer :rolleyes2:

There's that English language problem popping up again. It helps to read and understand the original thread topic post.

This is the topic:


Le Brok: Before Indo-Europeans expended from their homeland they had developed full IE package. They had horses, a wheel and wagon, religion, language, kurgans, etc. Some of the IE cultural aspects were not developed locally and were assimilated from bordering cultures. The question is where these elements came from?


So, the topic of the post to which you refer is where did kurgans originate...kurgans, not language. Get it?

arvistro
07-07-15, 20:39
This might be on topic, from wiki on Kurgan hypothesis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis#Timeline



4500–4000: Early PIE. Sredny Stog (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sredny_Stog_culture), Dnieper-Donets (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnieper-Donets_culture) and Samara (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samara_culture) cultures, domestication of the horse (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_horse) (Wave 1).
4000–3500: The Pit Grave culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_Grave_culture) (a.k.a. Yamna culture), the prototypical kurgan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan) builders, emerges in the steppe, and the Maykop culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture) in the northern Caucasus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus). Indo-Hittite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Hittite) models postulate the separation of Proto-Anatolian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_languages) before this time.
3500–3000: Middle PIE. The Pit Grave culture is at its peak, representing the classical reconstructed Proto-Indo-European society (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_society) with stone idols (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_stone_stela), predominantly practicing animal husbandry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_husbandry) in permanent settlements protected by hillforts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillfort), subsisting on agriculture, and fishing along rivers. Contact of the Pit Grave culture with late Neolithic Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Europe) cultures results in the "kurganized" Globular Amphora (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globular_Amphora_culture) and Baden (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baden_culture) cultures (Wave 2). The Maykop culture shows the earliest evidence of the beginning Bronze Age (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age), and Bronze weapons and artifacts are introduced to Pit Grave territory. Probable early Satemization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satemization).
3000–2500: Late PIE. The Pit Grave culture extends over the entire Pontic steppe (Wave 3). The Corded Ware culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture) extends from the Rhine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine) to the Volga (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga), corresponding to the latest phase of Indo-European unity, the vast "kurganized" area disintegrating into various independent languages and cultures, still in loose contact enabling the spread of technology and early loans between the groups, except for the Anatolian and Tocharian branches, which are already isolated from these processes. The Centum-Satem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centum-Satem_isogloss) break is probably complete, but the phonetic trends of Satemization remain active.

Yetos
07-07-15, 20:56
Before Indo-Europeans expended from their homeland they had developed full IE package. They had horses, a wheel and wagon, religion, language, kurgans, etc. Some of the IE cultural aspects were not developed locally and were assimilated from bordering cultures. Probably most of the IE aspects came via farmers from the south.



The question is where these elements came from?

I guess we can assume that farming came from Cucuteni.
Domesticated cows from Anatolia, or were they local cows?
Bronze from Mykop/Anatolia?
Religion-Kurgans, was it farmer of HG continuity?
Language of R1b? If yes then where the R1b came from, East Anatolia as Maciamo proposing, or European Steppe?
Horses and horse riding R1b or R1a hunter gatherers/pastoralists of the Steppe?
Pottery, Cucuteni or even more ancient farmers of Balkans?
The wheel and wagon, Anatolia, Mesopotamia, Balkans?
Chariot, Yamnaya?
Bronze weapons, Yamnaya or Mykop?
Feel free to expand the list.

They seemed to be a full hybrid of new Euro-Asiatic citizen, genetically and culturally well mixed farmers and hunter-gatherers who roamed the steppe. For that reason very adaptable, mobile and unstoppable to live from Arctic Circle to the Tropics and from semi-desert to the monsoons of India.

I think you should also put Gold mettalurgy from Varna,
we find gold in kurgans far away

Rethel
07-07-15, 21:22
There's that English language problem popping up again. It helps to read and understand the original thread topic post.

This is the topic:



So, the topic of the post to which you refer is where did kurgans originate...kurgans, not language. Get it?

OMG... It was rethoric gag, mention, whatever...:rolleyes2:

Don't you feel any kind of that?

Angela
07-07-15, 21:27
This might be on topic, from wiki on Kurgan hypothesis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis#Timeline



4500–4000: Early PIE. Sredny Stog (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sredny_Stog_culture), Dnieper-Donets (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnieper-Donets_culture) and Samara (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samara_culture) cultures, domestication of the horse (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_horse) (Wave 1).
4000–3500: The Pit Grave culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_Grave_culture) (a.k.a. Yamna culture), the prototypical kurgan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan) builders, emerges in the steppe, and the Maykop culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture) in the northern Caucasus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus). Indo-Hittite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Hittite) models postulate the separation of Proto-Anatolian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_languages) before this time.
3500–3000: Middle PIE. The Pit Grave culture is at its peak, representing the classical reconstructed Proto-Indo-European society (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_society) with stone idols (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_stone_stela), predominantly practicing animal husbandry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_husbandry) in permanent settlements protected by hillforts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillfort), subsisting on agriculture, and fishing along rivers. Contact of the Pit Grave culture with late Neolithic Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Europe) cultures results in the "kurganized" Globular Amphora (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globular_Amphora_culture) and Baden (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baden_culture) cultures (Wave 2). The Maykop culture shows the earliest evidence of the beginning Bronze Age (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age), and Bronze weapons and artifacts are introduced to Pit Grave territory. Probable early Satemization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satemization).
3000–2500: Late PIE. The Pit Grave culture extends over the entire Pontic steppe (Wave 3). The Corded Ware culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture) extends from the Rhine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine) to the Volga (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga), corresponding to the latest phase of Indo-European unity, the vast "kurganized" area disintegrating into various independent languages and cultures, still in loose contact enabling the spread of technology and early loans between the groups, except for the Anatolian and Tocharian branches, which are already isolated from these processes. The Centum-Satem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centum-Satem_isogloss) break is probably complete, but the phonetic trends of Satemization remain active.



Off the bat, I think there's a problem with the first horse domestication, which Anthony actually places in the Botai, yes?

Whoever wrote it seems to take a noncommittal approach to the development of the first kurgans, locating it both in Pit Grave/Yamnaya and Maykop, apparently. Not that I think that's necessarily wrong, given there is controversy over the dating, but for the sake of accuracy I would think the dispute over dating should have been mentioned.

Anthony has been saying for a long time that the Indo-European culture is the culture that developed on the southern steppe between 4,000 to 3,000 BCE, and that makes sense to me as a generalization, so I think 3500-3000 seems about right for the almost complete package. What the synopsis doesn't say is that this culture didn't exist very far to the east, certainly not east of the Urals. There was no agriculture there and no metallurgy either until much later. In addition, elements that are important in the popular imagination, like chariots, are also a much later development.

I don't think Baden experienced much, if any, gene flow from the steppe, so I don't think that old model really works in many cases. I'm not convinced that there was much movement off the steppe until about 3,000 BC, or at least it's questionable, the only exception perhaps being the run down the coastal strip of the Black Sea into Anatolia of the so called "Anatolian" branch, which might have diffused some steppe genetic material west into southeastern Europe, perhaps into Cucuteni/Tripoliye. I also think it's just possible, however, that "Anatolian" remained in Anatolia before the rest of the ancestors of the Indo-Europeans went north of the Caucasus to the steppe.

Corded Ware is an interesting and vast culture of its own, and really a bit off-topic for this thread. Briefly, however, I'm unconvinced that it can be explained by a mass movement of people from Yamnaya. For one thing, I think it's going to turn out that Yamnaya was an R1b affair, and Corded Ware was R1a, and I would think it might have had less of the "Near Eastern/Eastern" element. I think in some areas it was more Middle Neolithic, and I would speculate that in some reaches of the Corded Ware horizon it was a case of heavily EHG people being Indo-Europeanized. That would explain the differences in genetics, but also the differences in level of technology in some areas in comparison to that of Yamnaya. There's an obvious regression in terms not only of metallurgy, but of ceramics, and far fewer horse remains in Corded Ware than in Yamnaya. The Indo-European "package" that we're talking about has much more to do with the southern steppe than with forested areas. A cart and even a horse isn't going to do you much good in dense woodlands, which was what that area remained for quite some time.

As for Bronze, I do think it came by way of Maykop, whereas the early copper technology might have come by way of southeastern Europe primarily.

I'm pulling together a post on the metallurgy as I find time to do it.

arvistro
07-07-15, 21:56
About Botai and horses, wiki quotes Anthony's book dated 2000:
"Domesticated horses could have been adopted from neighboring herding societies in the steppes west of the Ural Mountains, where the Khvalynsk culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khvalynsk_culture) had herds of cattle and sheep, and perhaps had domesticated horses, as early as 4800 BCE."
Anthony, David W.; Brown, Dorcas (2000). "Eneolithic horse exploitation in the Eurasian steppes: diet, ritual and riding". Antiquity 74: 75–86.

Has he changed his mind?

arvistro
07-07-15, 22:13
The Indo-European "package" that we're talking about has much more to do with the southern steppe than with forested areas. A cart and even a horse isn't going to do you much good in dense woodlands, which was what that area remained for quite some time.
I see, so we are ignoring early Germanics, Balto-Slavics, Indo-Iranians (Corded Ware and its derived cultures) and possibly early Italo-Celtics when speaking about Indo-European package :)
It is ok with me, just wanted to point it out.

arvistro
07-07-15, 23:22
Sorry, last point on Corded here:

Corded Ware is an interesting and vast culture of its own, and really a bit off-topic for this thread. Briefly, however, I'm unconvinced that it can be explained by a mass movement of people from Yamnaya. For one thing, I think it's going to turn out that Yamnaya was an R1b affair, and Corded Ware was R1a, and I would think it might have had less of the "Near Eastern/Eastern" element. I think in some areas it was more Middle Neolithic, and I would speculate that in some reaches of the Corded Ware horizon it was a case of heavily EHG people being Indo-Europeanized. That would explain the differences in genetics
That is for most part correct. Except Corded Ware was less EHG and more ENF/EEF than Yamna. Even in Baltics.

Angela
08-07-15, 00:58
As to horse domestication, I was going by this 2011 online article by Anthony because I only read the book on loan from the library, and the google books version doesn't provide access to the pertinent pages. I suspect it just may be a rehash of the book, but I can't be sure. My error was in talking about horse domestication, where the quote actuallly had to do with evidence of riding.

http://www.academia.edu/3535004/The_Secondary_Products_Revolution_Horse-riding_and_mounted_warfare

"Andrew Sherratt included horseback riding and chariotry in his conception of the Secondary Products Revolution, but his emphasis on the role of horses in warfare andon a Near Eastern influence in the earliest episode of horse domestication is viewed here asas an important shortcoming in his understanding of the process of horse domestication.Current evidence indicates that horses were domesticated in the steppes of Kazakhstan andRussia, certainly by 3500 BC and possibly by 4500 BC. Tribal raiding on horseback couldbe almost that old, but organized cavalry appeared only after 1000 BC. Riding mightinitially have been more important for increasing the productivity and efficiency of sheepand cattle pastoralism in the western Eurasian steppes. The earliest (so far) direct evidencefor riding consists of pathologies on the teeth and jaw associated with bitting, found atBotai and Kozhai 1. Recent developments and debates in the study of bit-related pathol-ogies are reviewed and the reliability of bit wear as a diagnostic indicator of riding anddriving is defended."

Much of the paper, and the book, if my memory serves me, goes into detail about why size, variety etc. are so difficult to use as barometers for any of this.

"We are confident that these seven teeth from two Botai-Tersek sites came from the mouths of the bitted horses. Bendrey identified a single P2 with 'unambiguous' Type (prow damage) bit wear and two more with 'possible' Type 2 wear from Botai (Outram et al. 2009, pl 1333). He also found four mandibles with Type 3 (diastema) wear but he did not discuss Type 1(bevel) wear. Currently these patholgies present the oldest direct evidence for horseback riding. But horseback riding might have started up to a thousand years earlier in the Dneiper-Ural steppes at tplaces like Khvalynsk.

The whole analysis is very conjectural, but with all due respect to a scholar of Dr. Anthony's standing, I don't find that last sentence, in particular, very authoritative.

Angela
08-07-15, 01:33
Sorry, last point on Corded here:

That is for most part correct. Except Corded Ware was less EHG and more ENF/EEF than Yamna. Even in Baltics.

Well, I'd be interested to see an analysis of all the Corded Ware samples, all the way up to the Baltics, and a comparison to the Yamna samples. Maybe a Corded Ware thread could be started if someone is interested.

I should warn you though that I'm skeptical of these hobbyist calculators that change every month or so and their ever changing definitions of Near Eastern, ENF etc. :)

There's also a difference between the genetic make-up of the elite incomers from the steppe or far eastern Europe whose graves we've found, and the genetic make-up of the people of the prior culture, who, unless they were all butchered, eventually admixed with the steppe people to create modern populations.

Angela
08-07-15, 01:43
I see, so we are ignoring early Germanics, Balto-Slavics, Indo-Iranians (Corded Ware and its derived cultures) and possibly early Italo-Celtics when speaking about Indo-European package :)
It is ok with me, just wanted to point it out.

Why would you say that I am ignoring them or saying they're not Indo-European cultures?

All I'm saying is that I think it's an oversimplification to think that the identical package moved to all places at the same time.

Let's take the example of chariots. According to Anthony, they first developed all the way east in Sintashta around 2000 BC. So, how could that have been part of the early formation of the Corded Ware Horizon? Or, let's look at metallurgy. There were areas in Corded Ware that got barely any copper technology. Bronze was late and only in the eastern areas. That doesn't mean that Corded Ware wasn't an Indo-European culture, or at least an Indo-Europeanized culture, and it doesn't mean those areas didn't get those innovations later through cultural and probably even genetic flow from the east in later periods.

All I was trying to say is that the Indo-Europeans of the popular imagination, the chariot riding, bronze weapon wielding "warriors" of the steppe are a later phenomenom more typical of the Indo-Iranians of Sintashta, or the Mycenaeans, or the Hittites, or even of the Scythians.

LeBrok
08-07-15, 03:42
I think you should also put Gold mettalurgy from Varna,
we find gold in kurgans far away
The list includes very characteristic IE traits. Gold, although present, wasn't really their signature thing.

Tomenable
09-07-15, 02:52
Chariot, Yamnaya?

So far Sintashta is being credited by archaeologists with inventing chariot:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture

Tomenable
09-07-15, 02:56
Horses

So far the earliest evidence of domesticated horses comes from the Botai culture:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botai_culture

LeBrok
09-07-15, 03:18
So far the earliest evidence of domesticated horses comes from the Botai culture:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botai_culture
Might as well. Some IE elements came from further east.

You are right about chariots. Later invention of Eastern IE, Indo Iranians.

MOESAN
09-07-15, 11:24
One thing bothers me. If farming is from Cucuteni, and domestication from Anatolia, how do we have EEF map (http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Neolithic_farmer_admixture.png) as it is?
according to what I red the western steppes cattle was from Cucuteni-tripolye and the metallurgy rather from South Caucasus ("circumpontic metallurgic province")

arvistro
09-07-15, 12:28
Cattle in general is interesting. For example GAC was seen as intrusive (IE) culture because also this:
The economy was based on raising a variety of livestock, pigs particularly in its earlier phase, in distinction to the Funnelbeaker culture's preference for cattle.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globular_Amphora_culture

Angela
09-07-15, 17:00
So far the earliest evidence of domesticated horses comes from the Botai culture:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botai_culture

See post #28...David Anthony finds the first horse bits in the Botai, but maintains that horse domestication could have occurred further to the west. I personally don't find that very convincing, but whatever. It also depends on how you define "domestication". If you just hunted them for food, which is the first step, it's not domestication. However, if you corral them for eating, but don't ride them, is that domestication? Frachetti definitely locates it in the Botai. Regardless, it is unambiguously a steppe accomplishment.

As to chariots, it is the first "spoked" wheel chariots that were found in Sintashta. There were preceding "war wagons" with solid wheels in Ur. Also, there are archaeologists who claim those first "spoked" wheel chariots were for ceremonial uses, but I would think since they had domesticated the horse, it wouldn't have taken long to attach horse to spoked wheel chariot and start to use it for other things.

The Standard of Ur-2500 BC
http://sumerianshakespeare.com/mediac/450_0/media/9e52fba4c8055a72ffff80ccffffe415.jpg

We have a whole thread dedicated to the subject:

See: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30188-Four-Thousand-Year-Old-Chariots-Found-in-Kurgan-in-South-Caucasus-in-Georgia


One thing that has always puzzled me about the whole chariot thing is that if India was conquered by the Indo-Europeans by people from Sintashta why is there no trail of chariots into India?

(http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30188-Four-Thousand-Year-Old-Chariots-Found-in-Kurgan-in-South-Caucasus-in-Georgia)

LeBrok
10-07-15, 07:57
One thing that has always puzzled me about the whole chariot thing is that if India was conquered by the Indo-Europeans by people from Sintashta why is there no trail of chariots into India?

(http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30188-Four-Thousand-Year-Old-Chariots-Found-in-Kurgan-in-South-Caucasus-in-Georgia)
Unsuitable terrain for chariots? India doesn't even have a tradition of horse riding either, except some ceremonial events of ruling class. Was it too hot and humid for steppe horses during Indian summer?

Ike
10-07-15, 14:51
It also depends on how you define "domestication". If you just hunted them for food, which is the first step, it's not domestication. However, if you corral them for eating, but don't ride them, is that domestication?

Nope. Have to ride 'em.

Angela
10-07-15, 19:29
Finally had a chance to check my notes from David Anthony. He maintains that the oldest Bronze Age in Europe began about 3500 BCE when smiths started to make arsenical bronze in the North Caucasus Mountains. Arsenical bronzes and the Bronze Age they signaled appeared centuries later in the steppes, beginning about 3300-3200 BCE, and the beginning of the Bronze Age in central and western Europe was delayed a thousand years after that, starting only after 2400 to 2200 BCE.

I don't have any notes about what kind of bronze he's talking about for that 2400 to 2200 BC period in central Europe.

According to this, the latest paper I could find on ancient metal working, it might well have diffused northward from Anatolia.
http://www.academia.edu/1989221/Metallurgy_and_Ecological_Change_in_the_Ancient_Ne ar_East_Backdirt_2011

Sophisticated bronze alloys were developed later still and again in the Near East. It's a whole separate endeavor to trace this particular diffusion, with some indications that it moved west from Anatolia into the Aegean and from there into Europe, or, in other words, not by way of the steppe. I'm going by memory here, so it's not gospel.

This raises an interesting question about the nature of the metallurgy in Sintashta and its origin. If my memory serves, there is no indication there of all the stages of metallurgical development. Instead, there's a leap from primitive metallurgy to fully developed sophisticated metallurgy. If they arrived early with primitive metallurgy, and the steppe to their west doesn't exhibit the sophisticated metallurgy until after Sintashta acquired it, then what was the source of their advanced metallurgy? Could it have been another impulse from the south? I wonder what Grigoriev has to say about it? Or perhaps once the "highway" was established there was a transmission once again from west to east.

Anyway, sorry, that was off topic. Plus, it's just from memory. If I have some time to do some research and come up with
something more authoritative I'll find an appropriate thread and post about it.

Oh, Anthony says the copper technology came from the Neolithic cultures of south east Europe. I don't know if that's correct or not. There was copper technology in the Caucasus, so I don't know if some of the knowledge could have diffused from there as well.

LeBrok
11-07-15, 16:51
It does seem that bronze was acquired after initial dispersal of IEs.