Indo-European package.

LeBrok

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Before Indo-Europeans expended from their homeland they had developed full IE package. They had horses, a wheel and wagon, religion, language, kurgans, etc. Some of the IE cultural aspects were not developed locally and were assimilated from bordering cultures. Probably most of the IE aspects came via farmers from the south.



The question is where these elements came from?

I guess we can assume that farming came from Cucuteni.
Domesticated cows from Anatolia, or were they local cows?
Bronze from Mykop/Anatolia?
Religion-Kurgans, was it farmer of HG continuity?
Language of R1b? If yes then where the R1b came from, East Anatolia as Maciamo proposing, or European Steppe?
Horses and horse riding R1b or R1a hunter gatherers/pastoralists of the Steppe?
Pottery, Cucuteni or even more ancient farmers of Balkans?
The wheel and wagon, Anatolia, Mesopotamia, Balkans?
Chariot, Yamnaya?
Bronze weapons, Yamnaya or Mykop?
Feel free to expand the list.

They seemed to be a full hybrid of new Euro-Asiatic citizen, genetically and culturally well mixed farmers and hunter-gatherers who roamed the steppe. For that reason very adaptable, mobile and unstoppable to live from Arctic Circle to the Tropics and from semi-desert to the monsoons of India.
 
One thing bothers me. If farming is from Cucuteni, and domestication from Anatolia, how do we have EEF map as it is?
 
Before Indo-Europeans expended from their homeland they had developed full IE package. They had horses, a wheel and wagon, religion, language, kurgans, etc. Some of the IE cultural aspects were not developed locally and were assimilated from bordering cultures. Probably most of the IE aspects came via farmers from the south.



The question is where these elements came from?

I guess we can assume that farming came from Cucuteni.
Domesticated cows from Anatolia, or were they local cows?
Bronze from Mykop/Anatolia?
Religion-Kurgans, was it farmer of HG continuity?
Language of R1b? If yes then where the R1b came from, East Anatolia as Maciamo proposing, or European Steppe?
Horses and horse riding R1b or R1a hunter gatherers/pastoralists of the Steppe?
Pottery, Cucuteni or even more ancient farmers of Balkans?
The wheel and wagon, Anatolia, Mesopotamia, Balkans?
Chariot, Yamnaya?
Bronze weapons, Yamnaya or Mykop?
Feel free to expand the list.

They seemed to be a full hybrid of new Euro-Asiatic citizen, genetically and culturally well mixed farmers and hunter-gatherers who roamed the steppe. For that reason very adaptable, mobile and unstoppable to live from Arctic Circle to the Tropics and from semi-desert to the monsoons of India.

Domestication somewhere in the Zagros_Albroz mountains/Mesopotamia via Maykop together with Bronze. Farming from Anatolia via Cucuteni.
 
One thing bothers me. If farming is from Cucuteni, and domestication from Anatolia, how do we have EEF map as it is?
Because, most likely EEF came about in Anatolia from mixture of ENF and WHG. We thought it happened in Europe, but most likely in Anatolia.
 
Is this the oldest Kurgan ever?

Ipatovo kurgan refers to kurgan 2 of the Ipatovo Barrow Cemetery 3, a cemetery of kurgan burial mounds, located near the town of Ipatovo in Stavropol Krai, Russia, some 120 kilometers (75 mi) northeast of Stavropol.
With a height of 7 meters (23 ft), it was one of the largest kurgans in the area. It was completely investigated in 1998–1999, revealing thirteen phases of construction and use, from the 4th millennium BCE to the 18th century.
The first grave may have been a burial of the Maykop culture, which was destroyed by later graves. The earliest extant grave contained two young people, buried in a sitting position, dating to the late 4th millennium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipatovo_kurgan

Does this mean that Kurgan/religion came from Maykop?
 
I am not sure if PIE had bronze already.

This is about Corded Ware:
The Corded Ware culture (German: Schnurkeramik; French: ceramique cordée; Dutch: snoerbekercultuur;[1] in Middle Europe c. 2900–2450/2350 cal. BC),[2] alternatively characterized as the Battle Axe culture or Single Grave culture, is an enormous European archaeological horizon that begins in the late Neolithic (Stone Age), flourishes through the Copper Age and culminates in the early Bronze Age.

So, CW started Neolithic... And IE was then already branched..most likely :)
 
I am not sure if PIE had bronze already.

This is about Corded Ware:
The Corded Ware culture (German: Schnurkeramik; French: ceramique cordée; Dutch: snoerbekercultuur;[1] in Middle Europe c. 2900–2450/2350 cal. BC),[2] alternatively characterized as the Battle Axe culture or Single Grave culture, is an enormous European archaeological horizon that begins in the late Neolithic (Stone Age), flourishes through the Copper Age and culminates in the early Bronze Age.

So, CW started Neolithic... And IE was then already branched..most likely :)

Cored Ware was an offspring of NW Yamnaya. Bronze reached them the latest.
 
Is this the oldest Kurgan ever?

Ipatovo kurgan refers to kurgan 2 of the Ipatovo Barrow Cemetery 3, a cemetery of kurgan burial mounds, located near the town of Ipatovo in Stavropol Krai, Russia, some 120 kilometers (75 mi) northeast of Stavropol.
With a height of 7 meters (23 ft), it was one of the largest kurgans in the area. It was completely investigated in 1998–1999, revealing thirteen phases of construction and use, from the 4th millennium BCE to the 18th century.
The first grave may have been a burial of the Maykop culture, which was destroyed by later graves. The earliest extant grave contained two young people, buried in a sitting position, dating to the late 4th millennium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipatovo_kurgan

Does this mean that Kurgan/religion came from Maykop?

It does not only mean, it is :)

I thought this was a wide known and accepted fact. Just years ago a paper came out how the oldest Kurgans are from Laila Tepe and obviously influenced by cultures of Mesopotamia and Northwest Iran.
 
It does not only mean, it is :)

I thought this was a wide known and accepted fact. Just years ago a paper came out how the oldest Kurgans are from Laila Tepe and obviously influenced by cultures of Mesopotamia and Northwest Iran.
Can't find any info about Leyla-Tepe kurgans, or anything much about this place. I think it is in Syria and was dug up by Russian archaeologists. I need some help. :)
 
Cows and wheel/wagon could get to Yamnaya through Cucuteni, not exclusively through Maykop.

This is Cucuteni art from around 4000-3500 BC.
cucuteni3950-3650.png

https://mathildasanthropologyblog.w...just-when-was-the-wheel-invented-and-by-whom/
 
Can't find any info about Leyla-Tepe kurgans, or anything much about this place. I think it is in Syria and was dug up by Russian archaeologists. I need some help. :)

It is in modern day Azerbaijan and Northwest Iran.

The Leyla-Tepe culture includes a settlement in the lower layer of the settlements Poilu I, Poilu II, Boyuk-Kesik I and Boyuk-Kesik II. They apparently buried their dead in ceramic vessels.[1] Similar amphora burials in the South Caucasus are found in the Western Georgian Jar-Burial Culture. The culture has also been linked to the north Ubaid period monuments,[2] in particular, with the settlements in the Eastern Anatolia Region (Arslan-tepe, Coruchu-tepe, Tepechik, etc.). The settlement is of a typical Western-Asian variety, with the dwellings packed closely together and made of mud bricks with smoke outlets. It has been suggested that the Leyla-Tepe were the founders of the Maykop culture. An expedition to Syria by the Russian Academy of Sciences revealed the similarity of the Maykop and Leyla-Tepe artifacts with those found recently while excavating the ancient city of Tel Khazneh I, from the 4th millennium BC.[


As far as I know proto Kurgan graves have been found in Leyla-Tepe too.
 
Cored Ware was an offspring of NW Yamnaya. Bronze reached them the latest.
Point is that PIE did not have bronze already. They learned bronze when already were branched.
If we talk IE then yes.
 
Point is that PIE did not have bronze already. They learned bronze when already were branched.
If we talk IE then yes.
They were only a part of bigger IE group.
 
And yet they expanded before bronze. So, only Southern expansions were due to bronze. Khm, which Southern?

Unetice also started expansion before bronze. Indo Iranians branched from Corded (which did not have bronze before that) hm...

OK, bronze was learned after the initially expansion and branching off. It seems to me bronze was only accelerator but not the impulse.

Although I am not so strong in this subject. Which were the first IE expansions that happened due to bronze usage?
 
Point is that PIE did not have bronze already. They learned bronze when already were branched.
If we talk IE then yes.

I must say, the situation is somewhat ambiguous there: unlike, say, the word for "wheel" or "wheeled vehicle" (which we do have for most IE branches) where the situation is very clear-cut, the terminology for bronze or copper (or more vaguely, "metal") is a lot less decisive:

- The root *H2eyos is attested for Germanic, Italic and Indo-Iranic.
- For Germanic, you have English "ore", Gothic "aiz" - 'bronze', antiquated German "ehern" - 'tough, resilient, made of metal', modern German "Erz" - 'ore').
- Latin has "aes" (bronze).
- Sanskrit has "ayas" ('iron'), Kurdish "asin" ('iron'), modern Persian "ahan" ('iron').

Then you do have the very similar roots *ghelǵ- (for Balto-Slavic) and *ghelk- (for Greek), which however are not regular to each other:
- Latvian "dzelzs", Lithuanian "geležies", Polish "żelazo", Russian "zhelezo" or "железо" (which all mean 'iron').
- Greek has "chalkos" or "χαλκος" (copper).
 
There was actually regression in certain Corded areas in terms of metal use. Some of the areas bordering on the MN sites had copper tools, and then there was a reversion to stone ones. I'll try to find the paper.

We know that metallurgy came to the steppe from elsewhere. David Anthony is clear that the first copper in the steppe cultures was imported from the Neolithic/Copper Age cultures of Europe. The first efforts by the steppe people to duplicate the process were very primitive. I think the Bronze came by way of Maykop.

I remember reading that there was controversy over the dating of the first Kurgan because there was one north of the Caucasus and one just south of it which had very similar dates. I'll try to find that paper. I don't remember seeing any paper for the Leyla Tepe claim. There were similar artifacts, yes, but I didn't see anything about actual kurgans.

I was able to find this one on the wheel quickly in my files. It's 2012 so its pretty current. The early thinking was it was created in Mesopotamia, then some people thought northern Pontic shore of the Black Sea, then Baden culture. This researcher, after looking at all the finds again, waffles and says it might have arisen in a few places simultaneously.
http://www.academia.edu/1817159/Pre...rchaeolingua._Budapest_2012._Series_Minor_32_

However, when the discussion gets down to the details, there's this:
"The fi
rst comprehensive overview of Copper Age wheel models was written by Marin Dinu in his study on the wheelnds of the Cucuteni, Gumelniţa and Petresţi cultures, all dating from before the 4thmillennium (DINU1981). Dinu pointed out that the use of wheeled vehicles could thus be dated much earlier than previously assumed, but his opinion was not widely accepted. However,the radiocarbon dates for the miniature wheels from Jebel Aruda in Syria and Arslantepe in Turkey conrmed Dinu’s views because these wheel models were roughly contemporaneous with the wheels incised on the renowned Bronocice vessel, and thus they predated the earliest wagon models (BAKKER et al.1999,781)."

There's also this interesting tidbit:
"In 2001 Gabon Ilon published a fragmentary clay wheel model brought to light that Szombathely-Metro
áruház, a settlement of the late Lengyel–Balaton–Lasinj aculture, yet another find predating the generally accepted earliest appearance of wagons (ILON2001, 476, Pl. I), a date which was at the time received with disbelief."

I've read before that a movement of dairy farmers from northwest Anatolia has been posited as the source of these second wave Neolithic cultures. i think it would make sense that cattle herders who were also potters familiar with the potters' wheel might have come to see that their oxen could provide transport as well as food and clothing, whether that leap was made in Late Neolithic Europe or in Anatolia/Mesopotamia.

I think that the difficulty in dating arises from the fact that once someone came up with the idea its utility was obvious and there were existing trade routes to spread the idea quickly.

The author also makes this important point...

"
It seems quite certain that major innovations appeared or were adopted in regions where there was a social demand for them. It has recently been suggested that the wagon was an innovation inspired by economic necessity and that its extensive use can only be observed in regions where there was a socio-economic need for wheeled vehicles."

In a rapidly drying out and colder steppe where their newly acquired domesticated animals needed to be moved to graze, it would seem to me you had the economic necessity and a rapid adoption of wheeled carts even if they didn't originate the idea.

This doesn't change the fact that the word for wheel would have been present in these people's languages (except for Anatolian?) before they expanded.

As for actual war chariots, there's no indication of them before 2,000 BC, so it had nothing to do with the initial Corded expansions into Europe.
 
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This is the paper which proposed that the kurgans were first developed by the Maykop culture via influence from the Uruk expansion. It's from 2012. I don't know if there's anything more recent. http://www.science.org.ge/moambe/6-2/153-161 Pitskhelauri.pdf

Maciamo discussed it here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...nated-in-the-Maykop-culture?highlight=kurgans

This is the abstract of the paper:
"At the end of the 5 and in the 4 millennia B.C. large masses of Uruk migrants had settled in the South, and later in the North Caucasus. Assimilation of cultures of the newcomers and residents, as a result, caused their "explosive" development paving the way to the formation of the Maikop culture in the North Caucasus and the Kura-Araxes culture in the South Caucasus."

The Uruk culture is a Mesopotamian culture from the area of Sumer.
He bases his conclusions largely on the sudden appearance of metal and ceramics artifacts of high quality showing signs of Mesopotamian origin and then Maykop artifacts which derive from them.

The author posits that the impetus for the migration, which he claims was not an elite one but a mass movement of people, while it probably had to do with overpopulation and other factors, was also motivated by the demand of these Mesopotamian cultures for metals.

Interestingly, he proposes two routes for the migration, one of which is from eastern Anatolia toward the northwest future center of Maykop, and one from Iran toward the northeast Caucasus.

He then reviews the position held by some that although there was Uruk influence flowing north, there was then a reverse movement south bringing with it the "kurgan" type of burial.

However, he maintains that, " At present the situation has changed drastically. On the basis of a whole series of radiocarbon analyses, it has been proved [15, 82] that burial mounds of the ancient pit-grave culture are of a significantly later period in comparison with Maikop archaeological sites."

I don't know if this duel over dating has continued. I don't know if it matters, really. The custom grew out of the increasing social stratification which arose from the possession first of agricultural surplus, and then of metals, both of which took place in Mesopotamia (and in Neolithic southeast Europe). The mound burials arose in this context and under this influence from Maikop.
 
"At the end of the 5 and in the 4 millennia B.C. large masses of Uruk migrants had settled in the South, and later in the North Caucasus. Assimilation of cultures of the newcomers and residents, as a result, caused their "explosive" development paving the way to the formation of the Maikop culture in the North Caucasus and the Kura-Araxes culture in the South Caucasus.

So what? Euphratean-language-concept would be correct? Urheimat in Sumer :rolleyes:
 
So what? Euphratean-language-concept would be correct? Urheimat in Sumer :rolleyes:

There's that English language problem popping up again. It helps to read and understand the original thread topic post.

This is the topic:

Le Brok: Before Indo-Europeans expended from their homeland they had developed full IE package. They had horses, a wheel and wagon, religion, language, kurgans, etc. Some of the IE cultural aspects were not developed locally and were assimilated from bordering cultures. The question is where these elements came from?

So, the topic of the post to which you refer is where did kurgans originate...kurgans, not language. Get it?
 

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