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arvistro
08-07-15, 22:43
There are discussions whether Corded Ware was genetically Indo-European or just Indo-Europeanised culture. So, what is similar and what is different in Corded Ware and Yamna?

Here a text by Russian archeologyst Klein who participated in Yamna excavations, google translate:
"...Origin of Corded Ware - does it come from Central Europe or Yamna? According to article (Allentoft et al, my remark) Bronze Age culture populations arrived from the Steppe, from Yamna population. It deals more with the Corded Ware culture (Central, Northern and Eastern Europe), to a lesser extent - Beaker culture (Western Europe). Meanwhile, I, of course, can not keep track of the genetic relationships between groups, but I can judge about the cultural features that are characteristic for these populations. So, between the cultures of the Corded Ware culture and the Yamna -there is a very big difference.

The whole structure of the Corded Ware ceramics is built on the model (etalon), that is alien to early Yamna culture and similar to Central European culture Funnelbeaker that existed in the north of Central Europe in neighborhood to Yamna: the main forms of vessels - an amphora and a cup is present both in Corded Ware and Funnelbeaker. Culture Funnelbeaker is also similar to the Corded Ware culture by the presence of a rope ornamentation and armament - stone battle axes, hammers. In Yamna culture there were different ceramics and weaponry.

However, similar to the Yamna Corded Ware culture had kurgan burials, while the Funnelbeaker culture megalithic structures..."

Ok, that was old school opinion. What can be seen from genetics so far?
1) Corded Ware is ruled by R1a clans; Yamna by R1b
2) Corded Ware has more farmer derived and more WHG derived ancestry than Yamna. Yamna has more EHG. But Corded also has EHG, which Neolithic cultures in Europe lacked.
3) Haak et al pictured Corded Ware as 75%+ Yamna or Yamna like ancestry + extra portion of EEF/ENF and small extra portion of WHG. Also Haak's paper makes few other statements: Corded was in between Middle Neolithic Europe and Yamna. WHG ancestry revived in Middle Neolithic before Yamna.

So, what is the relation between Yamna and Corded? How much of those 70% ancestry is Yamna and how much "Yamna like"?

Angela
09-07-15, 02:13
Arvistro: 2) Corded Ware has more farmer derived and more WHG derived ancestry than Yamna. Yamna has more EHG. But Corded also has EHG, which Neolithic cultures in Europe lacked.

Could you please post the data for this?

Also, Haak's formulation was based on certain Corded Ware samples. Are the new Allentoft samples different, and if they are, are they different because they're from a different area of the horizon or from a different time?

arvistro
09-07-15, 07:27
It is difficult to compare Haak and Allentoft because they use different definions for farmer.
Yet both Haak defines Corded as having extra portion of farmer and Allentoft claims that Corded had extra farmer. This also fits with hobbyists finds. It seems definition of farmer does not impact the fact that Corded had relatively more of it. Baltic/Estonian Corded had more extra WHG, yet her farmer was still higher than Yamna.

Remember I was confused why Lithuania had more farmer than Yamna. I found out that Corded had even more farmer and apparently mixing with Baltic locals decreased it.

As to EHG it is logical. Modern top % of this thing is ~22% in Baltics/Norway (Haak data). Yamna had 50% according to famous statement. There are no known Corded genes with more or even close ANE/EHG to Yamna.

Will try to find & compare different data later this week.

arvistro
09-07-15, 07:47
This for starter:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11vadY5p7JajDxpFbbEOjbIP0IoBdY2mG5YvzXzaG3c0/htmlview?pli=1

Old Haak et al with k8. CW seems as mix of mid Neolithic Germany (~50/50 ENF/WHG) and Yamna (~35 ANE, ~25 ENF, ~35 WHG).

Unfortunately cant find Allentoft with good old k8. Now eurogenes have strange calcs with Euro_HG eating portion of ENF and portion of ANE..

Greying Wanderer
10-07-15, 06:52
Hard to say yet.

If Corded Ware is the parent of the cultures east of Yamnaya then that would seem to limit the options.

If the Samara samples fully represent Yamnaya then either
- the Yamnaya R1b expanded as tribal migrations east and west and were later over run in the same areas by a later expansion of R1a
- the Yamnaya R1b expanded but in small groups and for some reason acted as a catalyst on the populations along their route which led to those populations expanding

but if the Samara samples just represent a subset of Yamnaya (perhaps specifically connected to the Kargaly copper field) then another as yet unsampled part of Yamnaya might be a clear parent of Corded Ware in which case there's no mystery.

But generally option (c) confused.

arvistro
10-07-15, 22:26
Some comparisons of different genomes. Unfortunately we have only one cross-studies comparison. That is done by eurogenes.

So, let's see K8.
Yamnaya Haak (I used average, since all Yamnaya samples were about same):
35% Hindu Kush
63% Euro_HG
2% Amerindian
0% else

Yamnaya Allentoft:
38% Hindu Kush
61% EuroHG
1% Amerind

Corded Ware Estonian, RISE000:
13% Hindu Kush
79% EuroHG
8% Middle Eastern

Unetice RISE 150:
10% Hindu Kush
78% EuroHG
10% Middle Eastern

Unetice RISE 577:
13% Hindu Kush
68% EuroHG
19% Middle Eastern

Sintashta RISE averages:
15% Hindu Kush
78% EuroHG
6% Middle Eastern

arvistro
10-07-15, 22:43
Judged by whatever is meant as Hindu Kush, there is no way how Yamna can arithmetically be more than 15/35 (43%) or 10/35 (29%) of Corded Autosomally.

If we look at Estonian Corded Ware, then again arithmetically, if we max Yamna ancestry (believe that all Hindu Kush comes from Yamna) we get this:
37% of Yamna + 63% of someone with 85% EuroHG and 15% Near Eastern.

Also Sintashta averages look just like Estonian Corded Ware.

Pity there is no ANE, EEF, WHG for all this. That would make things more comparable. But like I said, whatever we use Corded Ware has more farmer and WHG and less ANE than Yamna.

oriental
10-07-15, 22:57
I had proposed that maybe Haplogroups K and P have had origins in India. Hindu Kush is next door to Iran. During the Ice Age the Persian Gulf was low land or marshy. Gradually the HG moved eastward by sea (Arabian Sea) and land towards the Hindu Kush valleys. Haplogroups K and P may have been wide spread and very old. The present distribution of Hg R, Q N and O show a focal point from India.. According to Karafet, Haplogroups K2 and P originated in Sundaland (modern day Indonesia). But the trek of Hg P from Indonesia to Siberia seems rather tenuous if not impossible. The rarity of Hg K and P in India could be accounted for if they are older and the Toba eruption 75,000 years ago wiped out the Humans in India east of the Hindu Kush.

Tomenable
10-07-15, 23:09
Such an autosomal comparison from Davidski's blog:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/06/k8-results-for-selected-allentoft-et-al.html

I've added some descriptions so it is more transparent:

http://oi61.tinypic.com/33bflzn.jpg

http://oi61.tinypic.com/33bflzn.jpg

arvistro
11-07-15, 00:27
Geographically Yamna in this PCA looks located to support Kortlandt's Indo-Uralic theory:
The Dutch linguist Frederik Kortlandt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederik_Kortlandt) supports a model of Indo-Uralic in which the original Indo-Uralic speakers lived north of the Caspian Sea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_Sea), and the Proto-Indo-European (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language) speakers began as a group that branched off westward from there to come into geographic proximity with the Northwest Caucasian languages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Caucasian_languages), absorbing a Northwest Caucasian lexical blending before moving farther westward to a region north of the Black Sea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea) where their language settled into canonical Proto-Indo-European (2002:1). Allan Bomhard (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_R._Bomhard) suggests a similar schema in Indo-European and the Nostratic Hypothesis (1996).

Tomenable
11-07-15, 00:48
Thanks, interesting!

ElHorsto
11-07-15, 01:36
Geographically Yamna in this PCA looks located to support Kortlandt's Indo-Uralic theory:
The Dutch linguist Frederik Kortlandt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederik_Kortlandt) supports a model of Indo-Uralic in which the original Indo-Uralic speakers lived north of the Caspian Sea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_Sea), and the Proto-Indo-European (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language) speakers began as a group that branched off westward from there to come into geographic proximity with the Northwest Caucasian languages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Caucasian_languages), absorbing a Northwest Caucasian lexical blending before moving farther westward to a region north of the Black Sea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea) where their language settled into canonical Proto-Indo-European (2002:1). Allan Bomhard (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_R._Bomhard) suggests a similar schema in Indo-European and the Nostratic Hypothesis (1996).

Interesting to learn that there is such theory, thanks! I was writing here since years that Indo-European+R1b probably has it's roots further east than Pontic steppe and is influenced by high-cultures more east than the Caucasus. Harappan culture for instance could have played a role. The idea started simply with K12b-Gedrosian four years ago. Well, it is no proof yet, but it's getting stronger and stronger.

Angela
11-07-15, 02:22
Some comparisons of different genomes. Unfortunately we have only one cross-studies comparison. That is done by eurogenes.

So, let's see K8.
Yamnaya Haak (I used average, since all Yamnaya samples were about same):
35% Hindu Kush
63% Euro_HG
2% Amerindian
0% else

Yamnaya Allentoft:
38% Hindu Kush
61% EuroHG
1% Amerind

Corded Ware Estonian, RISE000:
13% Hindu Kush
79% EuroHG
8% Middle Eastern

Unetice RISE 150:
10% Hindu Kush
78% EuroHG
10% Middle Eastern

Unetice RISE 577:
13% Hindu Kush
68% EuroHG
19% Middle Eastern

Sintashta RISE averages:
15% Hindu Kush
78% EuroHG
6% Middle Eastern

Arvistro, no offense to you personally, but is this supposed to be taken seriously? Do you even know what "Hindu Kush" means? What happened to the "farmer" that's supposed to be in Corded Ware? What happened to the approximately 50% Armenian that's supposed to be in Yamnaya?

Someone call me when the Reich group or somebody similar makes sense of this.

As for the Uralic theory, it's a total non-starter.

arvistro
11-07-15, 09:48
Angela, like I said in these data Corded has Near Eastern that Yamna lacks which corresponds to Allentoft et al.

Previously Haak et al defined Corded as Yamna + extra portion of ENF.

Broader or limited definition of farmer/NE does not impact that Corded has more of it. I hope you have any data or study showing otherwise. You can define ENF/EEF as you feel right, just show me that Yamna has more of it than Corded :)

About EHG you quoted yourself that Yamna was 50% of it. Modern Euro leaders score ~22%. I doubt you find data with CW higher on EHG than Yamna...

About Kortlandt and Indo-Uralic. This guy is one of leading mainstream linguists and a big name in IE studies. Also maybe you can show a PCA where Yamna plots away from Uralics, for starter. Like between NE Europe and Caucasus? Not between Volga Uralics and Tajiks.
Yamna was 50% EHG, who as we found look Uralic. I think data we have speak for Mr Kourtlandt...

Angela
11-07-15, 15:21
Angela, like I said in these data Corded has Near Eastern that Yamna lacks which corresponds to Allentoft et al.

Previously Haak et al defined Corded as Yamna + extra portion of ENF.

Broader or limited definition of farmer/NE does not impact that Corded has more of it. I hope you have any data or study showing otherwise. You can define ENF/EEF as you feel right, just show me that Yamna has more of it than Corded :)

About EHG you quoted yourself that Yamna was 50% of it. Modern Euro leaders score ~22%. I doubt you find data with CW higher on EHG than Yamna...

About Kortlandt and Indo-Uralic. This guy is one of leading mainstream linguists and a big name in IE studies. Also maybe you can show a PCA where Yamna plots away from Uralics, for starter. Like between NE Europe and Caucasus? Not between Volga Uralics and Tajiks.
Yamna was 50% EHG, who as we found look Uralic. I think data we have speak for Mr Kourtlandt...

Yamna doesn't lack Near Eastern, unless somebody has been able to show that the statistics done in Haak et al are flawed. Is that the case? Whatever happened to their approximately half modern Armenian?

Suddenly Yamnaya are one third "Hindu Kush", a term which you have admitted you don't really understand and can't define. I bet no one else can define it either. What did they do, decide modern Armenians are one third hg and 2/3 "Hindu Kush", so all of a sudden Yamnaya could be two thirds hg?

What about the fact that over 80% of the mtDna of the Yamnaya people is Near Eastern farmer. How does that factor in?

I'm not defining EN or ENF as I see fit. That's what these bloggers and amateurs are doing. Lazaridis et al used an ancient genome of an Early European Farmer to define EEF, and then gave percentages for all major modern European populations based on that. Any amateur analysis can't ignore and has to explain the processes that led to that. Haak et al never defined anybody as part ENF because they're scientists, and academics, and they were using ancient genomes, and they didn't have an early Neolithic farmer from the Near East. EN was still based on Early European farmers.

The only way to know how much admixture there was in Europe between early Neolithic farmers from the NEAR EAST and the hunter gatherers in EUROPE is to use the genome of a farmer from the NEAR EAST whom we can be pretty sure was on the path to Europe, and the genome of a hunter gatherer in Europe and compare those against late Neolithic European populations before the movement of the steppe peoples into Europe. Whether the farmer in the Near East had some Gravettian type WHG is irrelevant. So what? It's just a type of hunter gatherer ancestry. The other ancestry ultimately came from another ancient hunter gatherer. That's not the point of that question. Or is it the point for some people, and if so, why?

We do have a sample of an early Neolithic farmer in Barcin. Why isn't it being used for calculators and for figuring out how much admixture there was in Europe from "European" hunter-gatherers? It must be usable to some degree because the statement was obviously made by someone that it's almost identical to Stuttgart.

I have no quarrel with the statement that Corded Ware has more EEF than Yamnaya. There were MN cultures in the area. Not many EEF genes made it to the Samara region. (We'll have to wait and see what really western steppe people looked like. They may have had more EEF genes from Cucuteni-Tripolye spill overs into the steppe. Kohl believed that carts and mobile pastoralism actually moved from there onto the steppe. We'll see.) At the same time, however, if Corded Ware is two thirds or more "Yamnaya like" then presumably half of that is "modern Armenian like" which by definition is Near Eastern.

As for the genesis of the Yamnaya people, we're only going to figure it out when the ancient genomes in the Caucasus and south of it and in the Stans and maybe indeed in the Hindu Kush are analyzed. Until then, given how wrong some of these calculators have been in the past and the confusion that seems to be reigning, forgive me if I don't bet the farm on the results. If, when we have that data that PCA turns out to be relatively correct, great. It's no skin off my nose, as the saying goes. I fully acknowledge the impact the Indo-Europeans had, and I equally acknowledge the portion of my ancestry which I owe to them, but I don't define myself or my people in terms of them, so I really don't care one way or another who has more or less of it.

Just as an aside, I don't understand why it's false to claim that if people in certain parts of Europe were heavily EHG or WHG or SHG, and Yamnaya was half EHG, the "Yamnaya" component in those countries may be totally "inflated" and not in any real way reflect the actual "migration" of Yamnaya people to those areas, and certainly not reflect their participation in the creation of the "Yamnaya" package, about which we have an entire thread.

Which leads me to the "Uralic" hypothesis. All I can do is direct you to Anthony's book and Mallory's work, and innumerable others.

arvistro
11-07-15, 15:37
Good, the main point was about Corded having more farmer and less EHG than Yamna. As to exact proportions I agree that both Allentoft and bloggers tend to decreased them.

Kortlandt's Indo-Uralic fits with Mallory. For example this Kortlandt's quote:
Any proposal which goes beyond the Sredny Stog culture must start from the possible affinities of Indo-European with other language families. It is usually recognized that the
best candidate in this respect is the Uralic language family, while further connections with the Altaic languages and perhaps even Dravidian are possible. The hypothesis that Indo-European is genetically related to a Caucasian language family
or to Afro-Asiatic seems much less probable to me. What we do have to take into account is the typological similarity of Proto-Indo-European to the North-West Caucasian languages. If this similarity can be attributed to areal factors, we may think of Indo-European as a branch of Uralo-Altaic which was transformed under the influence of a Caucasian substratum. It now appears that this view is actually
supported by the archaeological evidence. If it is correct, we may locate the earliest ancestors of the speakers of Proto-Indo-European north of the Caspian Sea in the seventh millennium (cf. Mallory 1989: 192f.).

arvistro
11-07-15, 16:11
Just as an aside, I don't understand why it's false to claim that if people in certain parts of Europe were heavily EHG or WHG or SHG, and Yamnaya was half EHG, the "Yamnaya" component in those countries may be totally "inflated" and not in any real way reflect the actual "migration" of Yamnaya people to those areas, and certainly not reflect their participation in the creation of the "Yamnaya" package, about which we have an entire thread.
I dont have opinion on how much Yamna genes we had in Corded. That is one of reasons for this thread. My theory is not much.
But I do have opinion that Yamna was way more Uralic-ish genetically than Corded :)

About package. You discuss things of Yamnaya package millenias after PIE. Which is fine for IE but not so for PIE. Bronze weapons and chariots to PIE package is about same as nukes and internet to Christian package.

Angela
11-07-15, 16:31
I dont have opinion on how much Yamna genes we had in Corded. That is one of reasons for this thread. My theory is not much.
But I do have opinion that Yamna was way more Uralic-ish genetically than Corded :)

About package. You discuss things of Yamnaya package millenias after PIE. Which is fine for IE but not so for PIE. Bronze weapons and chariots to PIE package is about same as nukes and internet to Christian package.

So I've been saying for seven to ten years, all the way back to the days of the defunct DNA forums. How nice that people are starting to accept it.

The fact remains that there was a certain "core" package, whatever the source of the original element: pastoralism of domesticated cattle, sheep, goats, etc., some agriculture, the wheel and the use of carts for transport, some forms of early metallurgy. There are also terms for certain specific flora and fauna, and influence not only from Uralic but from Kartvellian. So, it didn't come together in the Uralic zone.

arvistro
11-07-15, 17:33
Agree, it did not come together in Uralic zone. Indo-Uralic theory says this:
"..we may think of Indo-European as a branch of Uralo-Altaic which was transformed under the influence of a Caucasian substratum."
Or in more words:
"The Dutch linguist Frederik Kortlandt supports a model of Indo-Uralic in which the original Indo-Uralic speakers lived north of the Caspian Sea, and the Proto-Indo-European speakers began as a group that branched off westward from there to come into geographic proximity with the Northwest Caucasian languages, absorbing a Northwest Caucasian lexical blending before moving farther westward to a region north of the Black Sea where their language settled into canonical Proto-Indo-European (2002:1). Allan Bomhard suggests a similar schema in Indo-European and the Nostratic Hypothesis (1996)"

Greying Wanderer
12-07-15, 08:04
I'm inclining more to Yamnaya being a catalyst - something to do with copper working - and before IE developed their full military capacity so they couldn't easily expand militarily but instead spread a long way in small groups along the trade routes.

In densely populated farming areas where there they found a source of copper they acted as a political catalyst increasing the power of the local rulers and thus causing certain cultures to rise.

In lower density areas like northern Europe and the Atlantic coast where farming was more marginal they acted as a demographic catalyst by increasing population density in some way connected to cattle.

So Yamnaya as the catalyst and Corded Ware (and the various cultures that spawned from it) as the result.

arvistro
12-07-15, 08:36
Hm. Funnelbeaker (non-IE) had cattle already. GAC (IE) had more of other animals - pigs, for example. See wiki on GAC.
Horses + social structure? Also climate I think changed. Will try to check for my source on climate.

Angela
12-07-15, 16:27
Agree, it did not come together in Uralic zone. Indo-Uralic theory says this:
"..we may think of Indo-European as a branch of Uralo-Altaic which was transformed under the influence of a Caucasian substratum."
Or in more words:
"The Dutch linguist Frederik Kortlandt supports a model of Indo-Uralic in which the original Indo-Uralic speakers lived north of the Caspian Sea, and the Proto-Indo-European speakers began as a group that branched off westward from there to come into geographic proximity with the Northwest Caucasian languages, absorbing a Northwest Caucasian lexical blending before moving farther westward to a region north of the Black Sea where their language settled into canonical Proto-Indo-European (2002:1). Allan Bomhard suggests a similar schema in Indo-European and the Nostratic Hypothesis (1996)"

I'm not convinced. Increasingly, I am beginning to think that Yamnaya and the whole initial Indo-European phenomenon may turn out to be a mainly, if not totally, R1b affair. It's R1a that has, in my opinion, the Uralic associations.

I think we tend to forget that R1a and R1b were separated as lineages for thousands of years, and I think perhaps that's because they lived in rather distinct if perhaps adjacent eco-zones with some overlap. There may have been some ancestral language that the two groups shared, but the more northern one developed into uralic, and the more southern one, with contact with Kartvellian, became Indo-European or perhaps they spoke related but separate languages from the beginning.

LeBrok
12-07-15, 17:06
I'm not convinced. Increasingly, I am beginning to think that Yamnaya and the whole initial Indo-European phenomenon may turn out to be a mainly, if not totally, R1b affair. It's R1a that has, in my opinion, the Uralic associations.
. Another clue for this scenario is that there are R1b only (R1a-less) populations, like in Western Europe, but R1a is always accompanied with R1b. This could mean that IE culture came with R1b to R1a folks.

Angela
12-07-15, 17:13
The Yamnaya Indo-Europeans were, in my opinion, the product of a perfect storm of technology and opportunity. I'm not going to get into the origin of the various components here as that's covered in the thread on the Indo-European "package".

What I think is true is that over a thousand year period they adopted some agriculture and many domesticated animals, including cattle. They domesticated the horse...perhaps it first occurred in Botai, but according to Anthony also to the West, or at least was adopted early in the West. They also adopted (whether or not they invented) wheeled carts, pulled first by cattle and then by horses. With this development they were able to move to fresh pastures and water sources for their animals. As Anthony pointed out, in the wide open spaces and skies of the steppe, they focused on sky gods in their religious ceremonies, and developed a tribal social system based on clientage and feasting. Their culture exhibited a level of "class" structure, if you will, previously unknown in Europe although you could argue it had made its appearance in the Near East. At some point they adopted metallurgy, for both tools and weapons, although in a not very sophisticated or pervasive way in the beginning, and grew increasingly adept as time went on.

When the farming cultures of Europe to their west began to fail and the climate started to change, drying up the steppe and perhaps also making western Europe less attractive for farming, they were uniquely placed, in terms of culture and geography. to thrive and spread in all directions, bringing their culture with them.

I'm still not convinced that all the demographic changes that took place in Europe stem from massive population flows specifically from the steppe. For one thing, I don't think the steppe could ever have supported such massive populations. I think this was a time of turmoil and population movement partly because of this climate change, perhaps a bit like the Germanic migrations after the fall of the Roman Empire. Other groups may have been "Indo-Europeanized" and absorbed by these migrating peoples and continued onward as part of a new "mix", while others may have been largely "Indo-Europeanized" in situ. We have examples from Baden which show some culture change but little to no genetic change, and cultures like Remedello, where the culture definitely changed, but the genetics not at all. I've been saying for years that the dogma of anti-migrationism was being replaced by the dogma of massive migrationism absolutely everywhere. It depends on the place and time.

When we have better high quality genomes from central Europe, I'm sure some academic will do an in depth analysis and come up with better "admixture" numbers for those who are interested.

arvistro
12-07-15, 17:44
Do we have genes from Sredny Stog?
This seems to be the most important culture parent for Corded Ware.
Couple of quotes from wiki:
"The expert Dmytro Telegin has divided the chronology of Sredny Stog into two distinct phases. Phase II (ca. 4000–3500 BC) used corded ware pottery which may have originated there, and stone battle-axes of the type later associated with expanding Indo-European cultures to the West."

"The culture ended at around 3500 BC, when Yamna culture expanded westward replacing Sredny Stog, and coming into direct contact with the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture in the western Ukraine."

"In its three largest cemeteries, Alexandria (39 individuals), Igren (17) and Dereivka (14), evidence of inhumation in flat graves (ground level pits) has been found.[2] This parallels the practise of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture, and is in contrast with the later Yamna culture, which practiced tumuli burials, according to the Kurgan hypothesis."
But
"The use of ochre in the burial was practiced, as with the kurgan cultures."

Red ochre was in Karelia too. Need to read more on it.

Greying Wanderer
12-07-15, 20:31
Hm. Funnelbeaker (non-IE) had cattle already. GAC (IE) had more of other animals - pigs, for example. See wiki on GAC.
Horses + social structure? Also climate I think changed. Will try to check for my source on climate.

Cattle breeding maybe.

Greying Wanderer
12-07-15, 20:40
Another clue for this scenario is that there are R1b only (R1a-less) populations, like in Western Europe, but R1a is always accompanied with R1b. This could mean that IE culture came with R1b to R1a folks.

I think the key thing here is whether it's true Corded Ware is the parent of the IE cultures that expanded east of Yamnaya.

If correct then I think R1a would represent the fully developed IE package and R1b a partially developed early version.

arvistro
12-07-15, 20:53
Just collecting info on Sredny Stog as potential father of Corded. Interesting info, not sure what to make of it. Other than it fits autosomally with Corded genes, except R1a could not be Cucuteni, could it?
D. Ya. Telegin et al. Srednestogovskaya i Novodanilovskaya Kul'tury Eneolita Azovo-Chernomorskogo Regiona. Kiev: Shlyakh, 2001.

Reviewed by J.P. Mallory, JIES vol. 32, 3/4, p. 363-366.
"The third section of the book surveys the anthropological literature concerning the Sredny Stog and Novodanylovka cultures. For the twenty Sredny Stog burials from Igren, we find the somewhat unusual situation of women outliving males on an average of 7.8 years (males - 35.8 years, females - 43.6); only one individual lived passed 55 years. In terms of the craniological analysis of physical characteristics the Sredny Stog females tend to exhibit a homogeneous Proto-Europoid type that is most similar to the earlier inhabitants of the region. The series of male crania, however, tend to vary more and indicate both more robust Proto-Europoid and more gracile southern European (or Mediterranean) components. The analysis of six Novodanilovka skulls from three sites suggests again the presence of both Proto-Europoid and Mediterranean types. The cranial evidence as a whole suggests a mingling of local Proto-Europoids (seen especially in the east) with more gracial south-east European types in the west, a pattern that might be explained by the flow of populations from the Balkan Neolithic (Tripolje) into the western Ukraine."
Which I read as more EEF (men) and WHG (women + some men) autosomals in Sredny Stog and its child Corded Ware than Yamna :)

The only question is how R1a and EHG got in the mix? With Tumulus later? Or were they those few proto-Europoid men? I dont believe they arrived from Cucuteni.

Angela
12-07-15, 21:32
Just collecting info on Sredny Stog as potential father of Corded. Interesting info, not sure what to make of it. Other than it fits autosomally with Corded genes, except R1a could not be Cucuteni, could it?
D. Ya. Telegin et al. Srednestogovskaya i Novodanilovskaya Kul'tury Eneolita Azovo-Chernomorskogo Regiona. Kiev: Shlyakh, 2001.

Reviewed by J.P. Mallory, JIES vol. 32, 3/4, p. 363-366.
"The third section of the book surveys the anthropological literature concerning the Sredny Stog and Novodanylovka cultures. For the twenty Sredny Stog burials from Igren, we find the somewhat unusual situation of women outliving males on an average of 7.8 years (males - 35.8 years, females - 43.6); only one individual lived passed 55 years. In terms of the craniological analysis of physical characteristics the Sredny Stog females tend to exhibit a homogeneous Proto-Europoid type that is most similar to the earlier inhabitants of the region. The series of male crania, however, tend to vary more and indicate both more robust Proto-Europoid and more gracile southern European (or Mediterranean) components. The analysis of six Novodanilovka skulls from three sites suggests again the presence of both Proto-Europoid and Mediterranean types. The cranial evidence as a whole suggests a mingling of local Proto-Europoids (seen especially in the east) with more gracial south-east European types in the west, a pattern that might be explained by the flow of populations from the Balkan Neolithic (Tripolje) into the western Ukraine."
Which I read as more EEF (men) and WHG (women + some men) autosomals in Sredny Stog and its child Corded Ware than Yamna :)

The only question is how R1a and EHG got in the mix? With Tumulus later? Or were they those few proto-Europoid men? I dont believe they arrived from Cucuteni.

Wasn't Corded Ware still further north?
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/btn_GeographyMaps/BC4500-3500EneolithSrednyStog.gif

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Corded_Ware_culture.png

arvistro
12-07-15, 21:46
Wasn't Corded Ware still further north?
"The culture ended at around 3500 BC, when Yamna culture expanded westward replacing Sredny Stog, and coming into direct contact with the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture in the western Ukraine."

Angela
12-07-15, 21:58
"The culture ended at around 3500 BC, when Yamna culture expanded westward replacing Sredny Stog, and coming into direct contact with the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture in the western Ukraine."


Maybe we're miscommunicating. It doesn't look to me as if Sredny Stog is in the later Corded Ware region, if that's what you were implying. Perhaps they were R1b.

arvistro
12-07-15, 22:09
Maybe we're miscommunicating. It doesn't look to me as if Sredny Stog is in the later Corded Ware region, if that's what you were implying. Perhaps they were R1b.
"The culture ended at around 3500 BC, when Yamna culture expanded westward replacing Sredny Stog, and coming into direct contact with the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture in the western Ukraine."
If you read carefully the bolded part, then you notice that by 3,500 BC Yamna already replaced the Sredny Stog. The map of Corded Ware is way after 3,500 BC. What I imply is the Sredny Stog people took their corded ceramics and battle axes and went somewhere when Yamna folk kindly asked them...

Angela
13-07-15, 14:20
"The culture ended at around 3500 BC, when Yamna culture expanded westward replacing Sredny Stog, and coming into direct contact with the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture in the western Ukraine."
If you read carefully the bolded part, then you notice that by 3,500 BC Yamna already replaced the Sredny Stog. The map of Corded Ware is way after 3,500 BC. What I imply is the Sredny Stog people took their corded ceramics and battle axes and went somewhere when Yamna folk kindly asked them...

Is there a record in the archaeology of actual movement of peoples from Stredny Stog to Corded Ware areas after Yamnaya moved west, or could it just be cultural diffusion?

From the genetics end, I suppose you would need samples from Stredny Stog pre-and-post the movement west of Yamnaya culture to see if the people were actually different. Was Stredny Stog, for example, R1a rather than R1b? Then you'd need dna from adjacent Corded Ware areas to see if there was an actual genetic change emanating from the Stredny Stog area.

arvistro
13-07-15, 16:25
Yes, samples would be perfect.
About population movements there is no consensus and Mallory states that there is "controversy" about CW origins.
Physical types. Only generic info circulating via multiple sources is that CW in Western part seems to be of local origin but in East (i.e. Lithuania) bring new anthro type - similar to what was in West!?

But - before CW there was neither ANE nor R1a in West, and you would expect those to arrive from East...



Some strange things there, only solution I see is that Meso/ Neo border population mix was CordeWare-ish physically accross the whole line from Atlantics to Ukraine, Before CW. Could it be so?

Angela
13-07-15, 17:17
Yes, samples would be perfect.
About population movements there is no consensus and Mallory states that there is "controversy" about CW origins.
Physical types. Only generic info circulating via multiple sources is that CW in Western part seems to be of local origin but in East (i.e. Lithuania) bring new anthro type - similar to what was in West!?

But - before CW there was neither ANE nor R1a in West, and you would expect those to arrive from East...



Some strange things there, only solution I see is that Meso/ Neo border population mix was CordeWare-ish physically accross the whole line from Atlantics to Ukraine, Before CW. Could it be so?

I don't know if this is going to be proved accurate, of course, but I have been leaning toward thinking that in this large horizon the gene mix could have been different depending on the area. I also think that while there may have been some movement from areas to the south east into the "Corded" zone, it need not have been very major. Some R1b might have gone into an area, for example, that had a lot of R1a. However, much of the Indo-Europeanization might have taken place in situ.

I don't have time right now to go through my files on Corded Ware, but my recollection is indeed that it moved east after a certain time and in a more easterly direction. Could the original population you referenced in Lithuania have been even more WHG/EHG/SHG like, what have you, before the arrival of the Corded Ware people? So indeed their arrival could have brought a new "anthro" type, more similar to MN European populations than what was present before, because they carried more of those genes?

arvistro
13-07-15, 17:24
Hm, Gimbutas on Balts:
"The specific group of Indo-Europeans that evolved into the proto-Balts proceeded from the lower Dnieper basin in the direction of Central Europe and up to the Baltic Sea. Some of them even reached southwestern Finland"
And
"A second, related group moved from the middle Dnieper to the upper Dnieper, upper Volga, and the Oka river area in central Russia (Fat'janavo culture)."
That is from about Sredny Stog area. If Balts arrived from there, probably others did as well.

So, my prediction is R1a in Sredny Stog before 3,500 BC.
Only issue is Cucuteni males in that culture. They could not be R1a, could they?

Angela
13-07-15, 17:48
Hm, Gimbutas on Balts:
"The specific group of Indo-Europeans that evolved into the proto-Balts proceeded from the lower Dnieper basin in the direction of Central Europe and up to the Baltic Sea. Some of them even reached southwestern Finland"
And
"A second, related group moved from the middle Dnieper to the upper Dnieper, upper Volga, and the Oka river area in central Russia (Fat'janavo culture)."
That is from about Sredny Stog area. If Balts arrived from there, probably others did as well.

So, my prediction is R1a in Sredny Stog before 3,500 BC.
Only issue is Cucuteni males in that culture. They could not be R1a, could they?


Yes, well, she also thought Baden was composed of intrusive steppe people didn't she? So, we'll see. Ancient dna will decide.

arvistro
13-07-15, 18:31
Yes, well, she also thought Baden was composed of intrusive steppe people didn't she? So, we'll see. Ancient dna will decide.
Which study had Baden samples?

Angela
13-07-15, 19:49
Cristina Gamba et al:
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141021/ncomms6257/full/ncomms6257.html

CO1 or Copper Age 1 is Baden.

https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=AwrB8p7N.aNVlSAATRgunIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTIyZ2 RyOWJiBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZANlZDMwNjllOGRmNzE3 NTkwZjM5ZmNjZjAyMDUwYmU5MARncG9zAzMEaXQDYmluZw--?.origin=&back=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2 Fsearch%3Fp%3DGamba%2Bet%2Bal%2BGenome%2Bstasis%26 n%3D60%26ei%3DUTF-8%26fr%3Dyhs-mozilla-001%26fr2%3Dsb-top-images.search.yahoo.com%26hsimp%3Dyhs-001%26hspart%3Dmozilla%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D3&w=946&h=572&imgurl=www.nature.com%2Fncomms%2F2014%2F141021%2Fn comms6257%2Fimages%2Fncomms6257-f2.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eupedia.com%2Fforum%2Fthread s%2F30570-Ancient-DNA-from-Hungary-Christine-Gamba-et-al&size=93.3KB&name=Thread%3A+Ancient+%3Cb%3EDNA%3C%2Fb%3E+from+H ungary-Christine+%3Cb%3EGamba%3C%2Fb%3E+%3Cb%3Eet%3C%2Fb% 3E+%3Cb%3Eal%3C%2Fb%3E&p=Gamba+et+al+Genome+stasis&oid=ed3069e8df717590f39fccf02050be90&fr2=sb-top-images.search.yahoo.com&fr=yhs-mozilla-001&tt=Thread%3A+Ancient+%3Cb%3EDNA%3C%2Fb%3E+from+Hun gary-Christine+%3Cb%3EGamba%3C%2Fb%3E+%3Cb%3Eet%3C%2Fb% 3E+%3Cb%3Eal%3C%2Fb%3E&b=0&ni=96&no=3&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=12pnb5l9e&sigb=15o1qbjs9&sigi=125b9q39r&sigt=12if06ijc&sign=12if06ijc&.crumb=9UbPiM8jvdx&fr=yhs-mozilla-001&fr2=sb-top-images.search.yahoo.com&hsimp=yhs-001&hspart=mozilla

https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=AwrB8p7N.aNVlSAATRgunIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTIyZ2 RyOWJiBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZANlZDMwNjllOGRmNzE3 NTkwZjM5ZmNjZjAyMDUwYmU5MARncG9zAzMEaXQDYmluZw--?.origin=&back=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2 Fsearch%3Fp%3DGamba%2Bet%2Bal%2BGenome%2Bstasis%26 n%3D60%26ei%3DUTF-8%26fr%3Dyhs-mozilla-001%26fr2%3Dsb-top-images.search.yahoo.com%26hsimp%3Dyhs-001%26hspart%3Dmozilla%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D3&w=946&h=572&imgurl=www.nature.com%2Fncomms%2F2014%2F141021%2Fn comms6257%2Fimages%2Fncomms6257-f2.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eupedia.com%2Fforum%2Fthread s%2F30570-Ancient-DNA-from-Hungary-Christine-Gamba-et-al&size=93.3KB&name=Thread%3A+Ancient+%3Cb%3EDNA%3C%2Fb%3E+from+H ungary-Christine+%3Cb%3EGamba%3C%2Fb%3E+%3Cb%3Eet%3C%2Fb% 3E+%3Cb%3Eal%3C%2Fb%3E&p=Gamba+et+al+Genome+stasis&oid=ed3069e8df717590f39fccf02050be90&fr2=sb-top-images.search.yahoo.com&fr=yhs-mozilla-001&tt=Thread%3A+Ancient+%3Cb%3EDNA%3C%2Fb%3E+from+Hun gary-Christine+%3Cb%3EGamba%3C%2Fb%3E+%3Cb%3Eet%3C%2Fb% 3E+%3Cb%3Eal%3C%2Fb%3E&b=0&ni=96&no=3&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=12pnb5l9e&sigb=15o1qbjs9&sigi=125b9q39r&sigt=12if06ijc&sign=12if06ijc&.crumb=9UbPiM8jvdx&fr=yhs-mozilla-001&fr2=sb-top-images.search.yahoo.com&hsimp=yhs-001&hspart=mozilla

arvistro
13-07-15, 22:21
Interesting which Baden she is from.

"Baden settlements were both permanent and seasonal. Stable settlements were more or less confined to the uplands and the northwestern portion of this culture, whereas small short-lived settlements are found in the lowlands of eastern Hungary and Yugoslavia. The pattern of permanent settlement is clearly linked to the tradition of the Old European populations." Gimbutas.

Same division was also for economy - farmer vs pastoralism. If CO1 was from that 'NW portion', then she might be relict from Old Europe.
If from the other side than I am not sure how to explain it.

arvistro
13-07-15, 22:26
"The physical type of Baden was predominantly Mediterranean, as was to be expected from the Vinca substratum. A steppe type was also identified, however, and a certain facial flatness in some individuals seems to reflect eastern relations. At Budakalasz, the steppe type predominated, while at Alsonemedi the Mediterranean was mixed with a European brachycranial type."
Not sure how facial flatness can be explained without ANE...

Angela
13-07-15, 22:45
Thousands of words, maybe tens of thousands of words were written both by academics and hobbyists insisting that the changes evident in the Remedello culture meant that steppe people had arrived by the Copper Age. Indeed, it was claimed steppe people brought all the copper technology to Europe, and if you dared to suggest any other possibility you were sidelined.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remedello_culture

Well, it turns out Remedello is Middle Neolithic genetically. Likewise, Oetzi was predicted by most, except on this Board in fact, as an R1b herder from the steppe because he had a copper ax. Instead, even though there was arsenic in his blood and so he was probably involved with metallurgy, he was G2a and very like Stuttgart. There's also a Bronze Age Hungarian who fits that profile.

In some places we're not seeing this genetic incursion from the steppe until the Bronze Age. Whether or not somebody finds a Baden sample somewhere that has a bit more steppe isn't going to change that.

arvistro
14-07-15, 00:02
Thousands of words, maybe tens of thousands of words were written both by academics and hobbyists insisting that the changes evident in the Remedello culture meant that steppe people had arrived by the Copper Age. Indeed, it was claimed steppe people brought all the copper technology to Europe, and if you dared to suggest any other possibility you were sidelined.
What does copper has to do with anything? If that was to downplay Mrs Gimbutas for seeing steppe where there was none, then it was a bad example.
Maria Gimbutas concluded that “in the 5th and early 4th millennia BC, just before its demise in east-central Europe, Old Europeans had towns with a considerable concentration of population, temples several stories high, a sacred script, spacious houses of four or five rooms, professional ceramicists, weavers, copper and gold metallurgists, and other artisans producing a range of sophisticated goods. A flourishing network of trade routes existed that circulated items such as obsidian, shells, marble, copper, and salt over hundreds of kilometres.”


Well, it turns out Remedello is Middle Neolithic genetically. Likewise, Oetzi was predicted by most, except on this Board in fact, as an R1b herder from the steppe because he had a copper ax. Instead, even though there was arsenic in his blood and so he was probably involved with metallurgy, he was G2a and very like Stuttgart. There's also a Bronze Age Hungarian who fits that profile.
In some places we're not seeing this genetic incursion from the steppe until the Bronze Age. Whether or not somebody finds a Baden sample somewhere that has a bit more steppe isn't going to change that.
Bronze age Hungarians? They have increased levels of WHG.

On the rest, apparently steppe folk was not that good in replacing genes in farmer Europe. Just like for example, Hungarians in Hungary. But the cultural change noticed by Gimbutas was there. She did not fantasize raising hill-forts, changes in ceramics, in burials, symbols and what not. Maybe it was acculturation with little genetic impact. Ruling class only for first two waves.

Angela
14-07-15, 01:22
@Arvistro

You are just repeating what I've already said. My point was precisely that there were apparently some areas where there was cultural change without major genetic change originating in the steppe. Like Remedello...perhaps like Baden.

Greying Wanderer
14-07-15, 01:38
Interesting which Baden she is from.

"Baden settlements were both permanent and seasonal. Stable settlements were more or less confined to the uplands and the northwestern portion of this culture, whereas small short-lived settlements are found in the lowlands of eastern Hungary and Yugoslavia. The pattern of permanent settlement is clearly linked to the tradition of the Old European populations." Gimbutas.

Same division was also for economy - farmer vs pastoralism. If CO1 was from that 'NW portion', then she might be relict from Old Europe.
If from the other side than I am not sure how to explain it.

Transhumance?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumance

arvistro
14-07-15, 12:09
Btw, this is again quote from her:
"The physical type of Baden was predominantly Mediterranean, as was to be expected from the Vinca substratum. A steppe type was also identified, however, and a certain facial flatness in some individuals seems to reflect eastern relations. At Budakalasz, the steppe type predominated, while at Alsonemedi the Mediterranean was mixed with a European brachycranial type."
This Alsonemedi sounds like EEF & WHG mix, Hungarian BA samples.

And bonus quote:
"The Tiszapolgar complex, an offshoot of late Tisza, emerged in northeastern Hungary, eastern Slovakia, and western Transylvania. The continuity of their settlement to the mid-4th millennium BC indicates that these people survived and did not merge with the Kurgan culture. However, major social changes are observable and may reflect a Kurgan influence. In contrast to the Tisza and Lengyel pattern, where the majority of known sites are villages, the Tiszapolgar sites (about 100 reported) are cemeteries that suggest small communities of thirty to forty people. This situation does not reflect a normal growth of population as in Lengyel, Vinca, Karanovo, and other groups during the period before the first Kurgan wave. Also, the social role of the male had risen, indicated by several graves of males buried with more than usual care and equipped with status symbols such as maceheads. Significantly, the skeletons of these men were of proto-Europid type, whereas the majority of the population was of Mediterranean type."

WHG folk hired/invited to protect against steppe raiders? (Quote is Gimbutas, but question is mine)

MOESAN
17-07-15, 23:01
a late answer maybe outdated?

Arvisto said :
Judged by whatever is meant as Hindu Kush, there is no way how Yamna can arithmetically be more than 15/35 (43%) or 10/35 (29%) of Corded Autosomally.

If we look at Estonian Corded Ware, then again arithmetically, if we max Yamna ancestry (believe that all Hindu Kush comes from Yamna) we get this:
37% of Yamna + 63% of someone with 85% EuroHG and 15% Near Eastern.

Also Sintashta averages look just like Estonian Corded Ware.

Pity there is no ANE, EEF, WHG for all this. That would make things more comparable. But like I said, whatever we use Corded Ware has more farmer and WHG and less ANE than Yamna.

Moesan answers:
Arvistro: I don’t understand too well your calculations concerning the Yamnaya part in Corded people. All the way it’s hard sport to deduce precise imput of a population on an other one at a point of History. Too much same ancestors in precedent periods and crossed flows (on and back). All we do, scientists and amateurs, are rough approximations which requires some cross checkings with other tools of identification; we see yet some slight differences between Haak and Allentoft works. In fact autosomes DNA is an unprecise tool even if useful at some level, and what we can see is shared DNA, but at the aDNA level it is difficult to tell the direction of genes flow. That said for sharing, I think Corded and Yamnaya shared very more than 35% of aDNA.
Are we sure Corded came directly from a Yamnaya population? Had they not common ancestors settled North the Forest Steppe, possibly of North Y-R1a lignages? As a whole the closest culture are northernly distributed on the map, Globular Amphora Culture seems more southern. I think some of the HG- WHG or EHG – they were around there (South East Baltic lands) since a long time, with already some ANE. Both Corded and Yamnaya seem autochtonous eastern and northern populations – similar but not identical - inequally acculturated at some point by 1 or more kinds of southerners. In K15 runs Corded show more diverse northern components, more ‘west-med’ and ‘atlantic’ too, but less ‘east-euro’ (Central Steppes) and less ‘west-asian’ (South Central Asia): the southerners part in Corded is more western. I cannot tell if it’s post colonization of western Europe or if this ‘west-med’ part was not present at low levels around S-E Baltic since Cucuteni-Tripolye?
&: I red just now one of your last post, about Sredny Stog: interesting concerning differences between men and women. And their flat tombs correspond more to the ones of the Corded. Spite Corded came later to light they kept with their flat tombs, at the beginning. So maybe are you right, thinking they swept away pushed by Yamnaya people? I regret I’ve not metrics details about this boring “proto-europoid” type, a bag term according to me.
Speaking of phenotypes, Coon thought Corded were a kind of selection compared to Yamnaya people. Corded in North Europe plain did not show the typical ‘cromagnoid’ descendants types but a very high statured mean of very high faced people, already present in North Russia in contact with ‘cromagnoids’. All the way, the high statured people were all in Eastern Europe, Central Eurasia, and not in Central or Western Europe and marked for me the arrival of new populations (the same for BBs): either ‘cromagnoids’ or ‘brünnoids’ the apparently HG element among them all seem come from East and not being the direct local descendants of their western brethren (WHG), at least not all of them. These differences of stature in N-W Europe between “before” and “after” the metal ages cannot be put on the account of neolithical diet, I presume. Yamnaya, if I understood well, would have had more of ‘southerners’ phenotypes, more of ‘cappadocian’ sort I suppose… so a strong enough common background between Corded and Yamnaya makes difficult to guess the genes flow direction; perhaps we can say Corded and Yamnaya are more in a nephew to uncle rapport or cousin to cousin than in a son to father rapport?
Concerning Funnelbeaker I red it was under diverse influences culturally speaking, unifying diverse cultural backgrounds. Someones say Corded are the result of I-Ean steppic imput upon Funnelbeaker fusion when others say the passage from Funnelbeaker to Corded took little time, linked to a religious change without external imput. The Long Barrows megalithers surely had a strong imput upon Funnelbeaker Culture in its northern and northwestern territories; the Gokhem aDNA is shifted towards “basque” (‘west-med’, ‘atlantic’) what could be a confirmation of it. And Corded’ principal phenotypes have little in common, with ‘Long-Barrows’ phenotypes found in Scandinavia at Neolithic : no way to confuse their skulls!). So yes, Corded imported human “meat and bones”, not only new culture nor new religion. And aDNA, even if we discuss the Yamanya part, confirms it.
&: curiously the only Polish Bronze Age man of Strzyzow Culture – spite his Y-R1a1a I saw in forums seemed more ‘L-B’ type than ‘corded’: a Funnel-B remnant? Or North Caucasus. I cannot forget the Coon’s observations of lower skulled/broader faced Ukrainian "corded" types, and the lower skulled Iron Celts and Scythes + some of the ancient Slavic tribes men of History. No correlation with Y-DNA? Rather with aDNA.
Concerning Sintashta, in place of a very Corded West to East colonization we can rather imagine an eastern proto-baltic population - partly 'tripolyeicized" as 'Corded' - Battle Axe? - for origin and departure place, with a very very slight demic imput of South East Caspian people (but strong cultural influence)? I had a dream (sic!): the core of satemization focal for me seems more in Eastern Europe than in Iran/Pakistan region one. Even Southern Slavic languages seems less palatizing than Eastern Slavic ones…? Just a bet!

arvistro
18-07-15, 10:38
Thanks Moesan, good informative post. So, CW did bring new type of bones to West too. I wonder why Mallory wrote otherwise. Do you know if those appeared with GAC culture already or with CW culture?

MOESAN
19-07-15, 12:22
Thanks Moesan, good informative post. So, CW did bring new type of bones to West too. I wonder why Mallory wrote otherwise. Do you know if those appeared with GAC culture already or with CW culture?

EI cannot answer here: I 've almost nothing about Globular Amphore C. I wrote in a past post a man of this culture was rather short and light statured (about 1m60); in fact he was surely a remnant of precedent Lengyel culture; 2 men of GAC gave 1m68 and 1m69 if I remember well, hat is closer to high statures, so closer to 'corded' dominant type but I've nothing concerning their skeletons and skulls (it spites me)...That said, Eastern Europe showed higher statured men than Western Europe, at Mesolitihic, according to scholars, so the origin is not by obligation in far eastern Eurasia. What is new is the very high face of one of the two componants on 'corded', which could evocate the dolicho-leptoprope type (no other description, helas) Russian scientists found in North Russia, considered by Shtrunov as a Post-Swiderian Culture population migrated to East from Poland-Balt-Belarus regions, pushed by or associated to their 'cromagnoid' people of Maglemose and affiliated cultures around Denmark; Shtrunov did not give the precise dates. He seemed associating 'cromagnoid' with Y-I1: if this Y-I1 population at these times was close to northern Y-I2 population, I can guess their 'cromagnoid' is in fact more 'brünnoid' than true 'cromagnoid' or already a certain mix of both (always the vagueness in descriptions!) - Cro-M. and Brünn were surely in contact since the 15000 BC or around in Central Europe, they had time to mix and create subtypes, robust all of them... all the way the high statured dolicho-leptopropo people, maybe born S-E the Baltic, were displaced to East, and Corded CWC could be kind of later return into West? I regret I've no precise description of Yamnaya people, with tentatives of typology, not only means, to compare their ressemblances and differences with Corded.

MOESAN
25-07-15, 00:51
@Arvistro

You are just repeating what I've already said. My point was precisely that there were apparently some areas where there was cultural change without major genetic change originating in the steppe. Like Remedello...perhaps like Baden.


I agree - but concerning association/dissociation culture and type of aDNA I red in the blog "For they were we are" that the supposed BA man from Montenegro was in fact of the Late Neolithic and pertaining to a Dolmenic-Megalithic culture - 2400 BC - !!! This could change some perspectives.

arvistro
27-07-15, 14:49
Interesting article on Corded Ware in South East Europe (Balkans). I did not know it was there:
https://www.academia.edu/6851833/Corded_Ware_in_the_Central_and_Southern_Balkans_A_ Consequence_of_Cultural_Interaction_or_an_Indicati on_of_Ethnic_Change

The analysis of corded ware and accompanying artifacts reveals the nature of its appearance across the Central and Southern Balkan Eneolithic during three cultural-chronological horizons. The first horizon corresponds to the Early Eneolithic, namely the Bubanj-Salcuta-Krivodol cultural complex (BSK), while the second corresponds to the Cotofeni culture. The third horizon, showing chronological continuity with the second, and set within the Late Eneolithic/Early Bronze Age, has a site distribution that encompasses the territory of nearly the entire Balkan Peninsula, where corded ware is found together with other steppe elements which are present in large numbers, such are burials under mounds and the appearance of the domestic horse.

Tomenable
20-08-15, 02:19
N1c and R1a samples from Chekunova 2014 were likely some Proto-East-Balts, read here:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31502-Ancient-DNA-suggests-already-Iron-Age-Proto-East-Balts-had-a-mix-of-R1a-and-N1c-(-)