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ELIOV13
14-07-15, 23:59
secondo me e' piu coerente un' arrivo di V13 nel neolitico in liguria anziche' nel periodo della grecia classica o greci bizantini.
Esiste un modo attraverso l'analisi di differenziare questi tre flussi?

LeBrok
15-07-15, 02:06
Welcome to Eupedia eliov13. Try communicating in english.

Angela
15-07-15, 03:03
secondo me e' piu coerente un' arrivo di V13 nel neolitico in liguria anziche' nel periodo della grecia classica o greci bizantini.
Esiste un modo attraverso l'analisi di differenziare questi tre flussi?

The kind of research that has been done into the subclades of R1b has not been done for E-V13, although things are improving. Also, we have very few ancient samples of E-V13 for comparison purposes, and even those we have don't seem to have been tested for really down stream clades, or perhaps the samples weren't good enough.

With more ancient Dna and more work on the subclades, it may someday be possible to figure out when and with whom certain subclades arrived in Italy.

If I were to speculate, I would say that as far as Liguria is concerned some of the E-V13 may have arrived as long ago as the Cardial Neolithic. That doesn't mean that some of it could not have arrived with Greek merchants or Byzantines.

There are some people, here on this Board, in fact, who believe it might have arrived even earlier in the Mesolithic.

As I said, given how quickly ancient samples are now being analyzed, perhaps we'll find out relatively soon.

Maleth
15-07-15, 08:37
secondo me e' piu coerente un' arrivo di V13 nel neolitico in liguria anziche' nel periodo della grecia classica o greci bizantini.
Esiste un modo attraverso l'analisi di differenziare questi tre flussi?

translation:- in my opinion V13 in Luguria is more Neolithic rather then from Classical or Byzantine Greeks. Is there a way to know from which period?

I think Angela said it all. I am noticing that there seem to be more V13 subclades showing up recently. As already been said we might be able to distinguish more precise routes and time frames. Is Genoa a Greek founded city? According to Wiki seems like the Etruscans were there before. We do not know much about the Neolithic of the region I guess (maybe Im wrong). Its interesting to find out that Genoa was the birth place of Christopher Colombus.

ELIOV13
16-07-15, 00:31
sono invece molti i siti neolitici della liguria e sopratutto nei territori dei liguri.Uno per tutti la grotta delle arene candide dove si vede l'arrivo di uomini provvenienti dal mare con appresso animali,semi ed ossidiana proveniente da Lipari(Sicilia).Si guardi anche i villaggi neolitici trovati in Emilia a ridosso della liguria come quello di Travo(PC).Anche qui l'ossidiana arrivava da Lipari.Chiunque conosca un po la storia d'Italia sa che i Liguri furono il popolo piu antico e che i suoi territori si estesero man mano dalla Luguria al Nord Italia e oltre.A sud sino al Lazio.Furono poi costretti ad arretrare nelle loro antiche sedi a seguito delle spinte di gente indoeuropee,celti,etruschi ed infine romani.
Qual meglio di gente V13 puo essere candidata per questa rivoluzione neolitica sucessiva al massimo glaciale? Visitate il museo di Genova Pegli e vi renderete conto di come gli arrivi con conseguente sedentarizzazione furono dal mare e provenienti dalla sicilia e dai balcani.
Tenuto conto che una vera tradizione greca, come puo essere per Marsiglia in liguria non ci e' mai stata e che autorevoli fonti antiche hanno sempre e solo raccontato di antichi e preistorici liguri.Si ricollega tutto alla cultura della ceramica cardiale.Anche i Bizantini arrivarono in liguria,ma numericamente molto ininfluenti lasciarono probabilmente poche tracce.Ne nella parlata locale ne per i pochi toponimi.Ne hanno lasciate molte di piu i Longobardi.I Liguri si fusero con i celti e ne trassero la parlata ancor oggi presente nei dialetti locali.Tutto coerente con l'analisi genetica del territorio.Credo che la gente piu genuina ligure sia oggi presente sugli appennni sopratutto liguri-emiliani.
Buona giornata.
Elio

Maleth
16-07-15, 12:31
There are many Neolithic sites inf Liguria. In a cave there are remains of seeds and animals and obsidian from Lipari (Sicily). There are also Neolithic villages found in Emilia . Here is also found obsidian that came from Lipari. Who knows a little Italian history is aware that Ligurians were the oldest people and that its territories were extended as from Luguria to Northern Italy and beyond and south to Lazio. Later they were forced to move back into their old territories as a result of the arrival of the Indo-European people, Celts, Etruscans and then by the Romans.

V13 seems to be the best candidate for this Neolithic Revolution after LGM? If you visit the museum of Genoa Pegli you will realize that the arrivals were from the sea and from Sicily and the Balkans.


Even Byzantines arrived in Liguria, but numerically not very important left traces of it genetically and left an impact on local language. Ligurians merged with the Celts and they formed todays dialect. All is consistent with the analysis of genetic territory. I believe that the more aborignial Ligurians are found in the Appenines especially Ligurian-Emilian.

Good day

Elio

that is an interesting analysis. So far E-V13 has been found in some Neolithic sites the oldest in North west spain 7000 ybp. G2a has been the major haplogroup for this period. Hopefully one day we will be able to test a few more sites further south to the Alps to be able to get a better picture then we have at present. I believe Marseilles was founded by the Phoenicians but superseded by the Greeks. The question to differentiate Neolithic dna with more recent expansions such as the Etruscans, Phonecians and Greeks is one that interests so many people. There will be a time when the Two eras can be differentiated in a more precise manner with the help of prehistorical remains one can piece the puzzle. Every now and again we are getting some more data and some discoveries have erased older popular hypothesis and theories. We will get there.

PS Elio. Se si mette il testo in google translate, si sarà in grado di tradurre circa così che più persone sarebbero in grado di partecipare a quello che hai da dire e mettere nelle loro opinioni :)


Buongiorno a te

(Elio if you place your text in google translate, you will be able to roughly translate to English and vice versa. This way more people would be able to participate in what you have to say and put in their opinions :)
Good day to you)

ELIOV13
17-07-15, 00:23
Esiodo riportata da Strabone in "La geografia VII 3.7" richiama il ligure i pi antichi abitanti dell'Occidente.Sarebbe troppo tempo per fare il discorso in questo sede.Forse non inizio nemmeno chiamato ligure, nome dato allora, ma la Liguria fu'certamente un base di partenza per l'Europa del nord di elementi V13 entrare in contatto con persone provenienti da geneticamente G2 caucaso.Inutile ricordare anche la somiglianza tra i liguri, siciliani e sicani ora per scontate per similarit in nomenclatura e ha riportato notizie nell'antichita'.Come Non ricordo provveniente ossidiana tutti a "Lipari" (Sicilia) nei siti neolitici in Emilia e liguri.Come non parlare della storia archeologica del nord Italia che si pu dire inizia dalla Liguria in et preistorica .o il nome di "Barga" presente in tutto l'Appennino il che significa capanna e ricorda una provvenienza dal mare? Forse anche l'origine del nome di Bergamo? e Orobi? Apuane o tutti i nomi delle montagne del nord Italia? Il dio dei liguri stato "Pen" .Etc.Etc.Etc .....
In breve, la Liguria non ha alcun residuo dell'era greco classico paragonabile a sud Italia.Ne sono stati trovati testi scritti.I liguri non conoscevano la loro storia e non conoscevano la scrittura e mantevano usi preistorici e barbarici anche nel periodo romano.Soppravvive un antico mito di Cicno, figlio di Stenelo re della Liguria e relativa di Fetonte, figlio del Sole rush 'nell'Eridano (fiume PO corrente) .Ma questo non fa che confermare un antico vecchio legame con la Grecia in tempi preistorici, ma non classico.
In sintesi e 'del tutto coerente con un arrivo del V13 Neolitico in Liguria, in linea con la distribuzione di cardias ceramica e con la scoperta della grotta dell'Avellaner nel nord della Spagna.

Angela
17-07-15, 01:43
It doesn't follow that because there are Cardial Neolithic sites in Liguria (and other parts of Italy) and we've found E-V13 in a Cardial site in the Avellaner Cave in Spain, that all the Cardial in Liguria was E-V13. If we go by the ancient Dna we have found to date, G2a would have been a very important Cardial lineage, and perhaps there was also I2a that had been absorbed by the migrating Neolithic peoples. I do think that E-V13 was also part of the mix. Furthermore, if I were to speculate I would say that much of the E-V13 in Liguria has probably indeed been present since the Neolithic.

That doesn't mean some of it couldn't have arrived with the Greeks, who had a trading post at Massalia, not far down the coast, and some traders might have been part of the history of Genova as well. . The descendents of any E-V13 Greek traders would probably have eventually become Romanized Latin speakers. There were also indeed Byzantines in the area, including inland in the Lunigiana.

Filetto, with which you might be familiar, for example, was built on the site of a Byzantine castum.
http://www.terredilunigiana.com/borghi/borgofiletto.php

On the other hand, these are not large folk migrations, and so I think these would constitute a much smaller percentage of the total. We won't get a better handle on this until the various subclades of E-V13 are analyzed.

I would just add that the most recent linguistic analyses which I've seen of Ligurian indicates that it is an Indo-European language, so the people would have been some mixture of the prior Neolithic population and "Indo-Europeans". Then we have the migrations of the Celtici in the first millennium BC. I would agree that it's very possible that their closest living "relatives" can probably be found in the Appennino Ligure, the Appennino Tosco-Emiliano and perhaps the Alpi Apuani as well. Years ago I read statements made by Cavalli-Sforza to that effect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligurian_language_%28ancient%29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligures

ELIOV13
17-07-15, 18:36
come sempre molto chiara e preparata,complimenti.
Intendevo comunque mettere in rilievo un evidenza e dare la giusta importanza ad un espansione neolitica che dalla liguria potrebbe avere influenzato l'Europa.Certamente qualche mercante greco o etrusco avra' avuto discendenti ma gia da secoli o da millenni il popolo ligure era gia un fatto compiuto.Nella regio IX romana i suoi confini arrivavano sino a Nizza e comprendevano anche Parma e Piacenza.E anche quando le sue citta' parevano romane traevano invece il nome dai celto-liguri come nel caso di Veleia(prendeva il nome dalla tribu dei liguri Veleiati).L'arrivo dei Bizantini, chiamati dai genovesi per difendersi dai Goti,fu un fenomeno di pochi decenni che, a seguito dell'arrivo Longobardo, mirava solo a mantenere un corridoio con Ravenna.Non basta il nome della localita' di Filattiera da cui deriva la parola filosso entrata nel dialetto come "parlottare" o di qualche "localita' dei greci"per giustificare un numero percentuale tanto elevato di V13.Penso che bisogna dare alla Liguria la giusta importanza come luogo di propulsione neolitico di elementi E1b1b1a1b.O quantomeno iniziare a discutere di arrivi dalla sicilia o dalla grecia/balcani di elementi pre periodo classico.
Perche' in definitiva i popoli attraverso i secoli ed i millenni hanno sempre teso a seguire le stesse rotte o vie.
Speriamo che ulteriori analisi di nuove subclade possano fare maggior chiarezza.Anche se sembra che, sopratutto in Italia, interessi poco la sua storia passata limitandosi solo ad una retorica latino-romana.
Buona giornata.

Angela
19-07-15, 17:54
Elio,
I'm quite aware that the Regio IX Romana reached Nizza and included Parma and Piacenza. The ancestral territory of the Ligures probably extended even further into France and further into northern Italy as well. Not only do the names of supposedly "Roman" towns derive from words in the ancient Ligurian language, but there are attested speakers of it in northern Italy into the first centuries AD.

I do see E-V13 as part of the spread of Cardial culture, it's probable use of ancient sea routes that included Sicily, and the fact that most of the E-V13 in Liguria probably stems from that period. I've also already stated that I doubt that Greek traders could have had a huge impact or a few hundred Byzantine soldiers during the period of the Gothic Wars or sent to defend the corridor to Ravenna, for that matter.

So, we are largely in agreement. However, this is a science, and speculation is not good enough, and probably is not good enough; we need ancient dna which is highly resolved.

Piro Ilir
20-07-15, 21:34
The kind of research that has been done into the subclades of R1b has not been done for E-V13, although things are improving. Also, we have very few ancient samples of E-V13 for comparison purposes, and even those we have don't seem to have been tested for really down stream clades, or perhaps the samples weren't good enough.

With more ancient Dna and more work on the subclades, it may someday be possible to figure out when and with whom certain subclades arrived in Italy.

If I were to speculate, I would say that as far as Liguria is concerned some of the E-V13 may have arrived as long ago as the Cardial Neolithic. That doesn't mean that some of it could not have arrived with Greek merchants or Byzantines.

There are some people, here on this Board, in fact, who believe it might have arrived even earlier in the Mesolithic.

As I said, given how quickly ancient samples are now being analyzed, perhaps we'll find out relatively soon.
Angela, what is your opinion. What is really the connection between EV13 and modern Albanians. As we know EV13 is more common or more spreaded on Albanian population. Can you be honest about this, because you know that is very difficult when we talk about Balkans. I am trying to understand something about genetics here in this forum, but is too difficult, because of the balkanic bias and nationalistic opinions. Thanks

Angela
20-07-15, 23:13
Piro Ilir;462791]Angela, what is your opinion. What is really the connection between E-V13 and modern Albanians. As we know EV13 is more common or more spreaded on Albanian population. Can you be honest about this, because you know that is very difficult when we talk about Balkans. I am trying to understand something about genetics here in this forum, but is too difficult, because of the balkanic bias and nationalistic opinions. Thank

This isn't a thread on the Albanians, so let's not derail the thread, but I'll just answer briefly. As to my opinions on this matter, they should be clear. I'm not shy about expressing them, although I may not be as "certain" about some of these things as people might prefer.

I don't think there's any way to support a "recent" appearance of E-V13 in the Balkans, if that's what you're asking, such as that it was brought there by resettlements conducted by the Ottomans or any other such nonsense. It's at least Bronze Age, probably Neolithic, and perhaps Mesolithic in Europe if not precisely in that particular area of the Balkans.

To support those conclusions, we have evidence that a "related" clade was present in a Cardial Neolithic site, Avellaner. We have two samples in a mid/Late Neolithic context just north of the Balkans, one of which is E-M78, and one of which may in fact already be E-V13.

Then we have a mass of E-V13 a little further south in the Balkans with an estimated expansion date in the Bronze Age.

We have a saying, "If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck." E-V13 is very old in the Balkans.

Piro Ilir
21-07-15, 14:14
This isn't a thread on the Albanians, so let's not derail the thread, but I'll just answer briefly. As to my opinions on this matter, they should be clear. I'm not shy about expressing them, although I may not be as "certain" about some of these things as people might prefer.

I don't think there's any way to support a "recent" appearance of E-V13 in the Balkans, if that's what you're asking, such as that it was brought there by resettlements conducted by the Ottomans or any other such nonsense. It's at least Bronze Age, probably Neolithic, and perhaps Mesolithic in Europe if not precisely in that particular area of the Balkans.

To support those conclusions, we have evidence that a "related" clade was present in a Cardial Neolithic site, Avellaner. We have two samples in a mid/Late Neolithic context just north of the Balkans, one of which is E-M78, and one of which may in fact already be E-V13.

Then we have a mass of E-V13 a little further south in the Balkans with an estimated expansion date in the Bronze Age.

We have a saying, "If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck." E-V13 is very old in the Balkans.
Thanks for your answer. As I know Turks have a small percentage of EV13 . So they can't brought with them the EV13 . With all the respect for them, Turks are completely different from Albanians, both in appearance and in language. But either, there are some strange things on Albanians genetics as I know, but we can't talk here about this issue.

ELIOV13
21-07-15, 23:12
This isn't a thread on the Albanians, so let's not derail the thread, but I'll just answer briefly. As to my opinions on this matter, they should be clear. I'm not shy about expressing them, although I may not be as "certain" about some of these things as people might prefer.

I don't think there's any way to support a "recent" appearance of E-V13 in the Balkans, if that's what you're asking, such as that it was brought there by resettlements conducted by the Ottomans or any other such nonsense. It's at least Bronze Age, probably Neolithic, and perhaps Mesolithic in Europe if not precisely in that particular area of the Balkans.

To support those conclusions, we have evidence that a "related" clade was present in a Cardial Neolithic site, Avellaner. We have two samples in a mid/Late Neolithic context just north of the Balkans, one of which is E-M78, and one of which may in fact already be E-V13.

Then we have a mass of E-V13 a little further south in the Balkans with an estimated expansion date in the Bronze Age.

We have a saying, "If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck." E-V13 is very old in the Balkans.


has come a long way this duck.Ho lost one step.where is the documentation for the finds to the north and south of the Balkans ?

Hauteville
22-07-15, 00:26
sono invece molti i siti neolitici della liguria e sopratutto nei territori dei liguri.Uno per tutti la grotta delle arene candide dove si vede l'arrivo di uomini provvenienti dal mare con appresso animali,semi ed ossidiana proveniente da Lipari(Sicilia).Si guardi anche i villaggi neolitici trovati in Emilia a ridosso della liguria come quello di Travo(PC).Anche qui l'ossidiana arrivava da Lipari.Chiunque conosca un po la storia d'Italia sa che i Liguri furono il popolo piu antico e che i suoi territori si estesero man mano dalla Luguria al Nord Italia e oltre.A sud sino al Lazio.Furono poi costretti ad arretrare nelle loro antiche sedi a seguito delle spinte di gente indoeuropee,celti,etruschi ed infine romani.
Qual meglio di gente V13 puo essere candidata per questa rivoluzione neolitica sucessiva al massimo glaciale? Visitate il museo di Genova Pegli e vi renderete conto di come gli arrivi con conseguente sedentarizzazione furono dal mare e provenienti dalla sicilia e dai balcani.
Tenuto conto che una vera tradizione greca, come puo essere per Marsiglia in liguria non ci e' mai stata e che autorevoli fonti antiche hanno sempre e solo raccontato di antichi e preistorici liguri.Si ricollega tutto alla cultura della ceramica cardiale.Anche i Bizantini arrivarono in liguria,ma numericamente molto ininfluenti lasciarono probabilmente poche tracce.Ne nella parlata locale ne per i pochi toponimi.Ne hanno lasciate molte di piu i Longobardi.I Liguri si fusero con i celti e ne trassero la parlata ancor oggi presente nei dialetti locali.Tutto coerente con l'analisi genetica del territorio.Credo che la gente piu genuina ligure sia oggi presente sugli appennni sopratutto liguri-emiliani.
Buona giornata.
Elio


Without analize of aDNA of them we can not say nothing but just hypotesis.

Angela
22-07-15, 00:56
has come a long way this duck.Ho lost one step.where is the documentation for the finds to the north and south of the Balkans ?

See: http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte/2015/4075/pdf/doc.pdf

Also: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31362-Neolithic-western-Carpathian-Basin-356-pages?highlight=E-v13+sopot

ELIOV13
22-07-15, 22:44
in recent years have found many residues Neolithic Liguria / Emilia / Piedmont etc.Tutti scholars have long concluded that the first wave arrival 'by mare.Vedi ceramics cardia and then mouth jars quadrata.Questi first men took possession of lands adjacent the grooves of the rivers and then land extremely fertili.Non knew the use dell'aratro.I sites are also recognizable by the many stone axes levigata.Ho visited some sites and I was surprised to see more and in any place the 'obsidian, always coming from Lipari (Sicily) .In short, started this revolution that led men to be settled with the agricoltura.Ora, we know that in Liguria there is' an important concentration of people belonging to haplogroup V13.
And, as in the history Ligure there are remnants and traditions important Greek / Byzantine as may be the South of Italy, it seems logical to think that this region shares' expansion to the Neolithic nord.Ovviamente along with that through the course Danubio.E of 'clear that we must first be able to divide the flows genetic Neolithic, classical Greece, the bizantini.Ma already given so' many V13 puts this region as important meeting between the Mediterranean culture and especially north europea.E begin considering Ligurian Neolithic V13, which is not 'been considered in forum.Vorrei do another consideration, were deported to the Ligurian Apuan Sannio.Prima 40,000 nuclei then 7.000.Non may be a proof that in the region around Luni there are no V13 simply because 'they replaced the Latin population with the Romans or with other laborers friend in the marble quarries?

good night.

joeyc
22-07-15, 23:12
E-V13 could be as well a mesolitich haplogroup in southern European AFAIK.

Maleth
23-07-15, 09:54
http://community.haplozone.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3952.0;attach=4117 ;image

http://community.haplozone.net/index.php?topic=3952.0



Venice seems to have similar distributions of E-V13. Does Veneto have a similar story to Liguria in its distribution?

ELIOV13
23-07-15, 23:32
Herodotus, who was not quite the last, but he traveled to learn about customs and peoples called them of Illyrian origin, and, if it were not for the wave of migration Slavic, you would have seen many in Dalmazia.Venezia V13 has always drawn on the trades and domains from the sea where between the coast and the other you 'just the cradle of the V13.
Then over time important were also the Etruscans, Greeks and bizantini.Adria vicino.Tito Livio was there in Roman times traced phonation of Padua in refugee Troiani.Ce catered 'to talk of V13 .....

MOESAN
25-07-15, 13:48
Elio,
I'm quite aware that the Regio IX Romana reached Nizza and included Parma and Piacenza. The ancestral territory of the Ligures probably extended even further into France and further into northern Italy as well. Not only do the names of supposedly "Roman" towns derive from words in the ancient Ligurian language, but there are attested speakers of it in northern Italy into the first centuries AD.

I do see E-V13 as part of the spread of Cardial culture, it's probable use of ancient sea routes that included Sicily, and the fact that most of the E-V13 in Liguria probably stems from that period. I've also already stated that I doubt that Greek traders could have had a huge impact or a few hundred Byzantine soldiers during the period of the Gothic Wars or sent to defend the corridor to Ravenna, for that matter.

So, we are largely in agreement. However, this is a science, and speculation is not good enough, and probably is not good enough; we need ancient dna which is highly resolved.

I agree. I think E-V13 is old enough to have been part of the Cardial moves, even if as a minority. We have more and more ancient DNA, but not so much for Y-haplos and not in a great number of places. "Future" past could deliver us some surprises again.
concerning the Ligurians concept I see we are here in the same state as for "Pelasgians": what kind of Ligurians? only Neolithic or pre-Neolithic people, or the ones who seemingly spoke an I-E language akin enoughh to Celtic and Italic? These last ones, appeared lately enough in History, were surely heavily Y-R1b, U152 for the most, were they not? surely a mix, but with new male ligneages. The today Liguria is an other matter.
I see in the post #12 we are in accord concerning E-V13 in Balkans and elsewhere in S-Europe, with the current knowledge we have access to.

Piro Ilir
04-08-15, 22:55
Herodotus, who was not quite the last, but he traveled to learn about customs and peoples called them of Illyrian origin, and, if it were not for the wave of migration Slavic, you would have seen many in Dalmazia.Venezia V13 has always drawn on the trades and domains from the sea where between the coast and the other you 'just the cradle of the V13.
Then over time important were also the Etruscans, Greeks and bizantini.Adria vicino.Tito Livio was there in Roman times traced phonation of Padua in refugee Troiani.Ce catered 'to talk of V13 .....
I see you have a lot of knowledge on Ev13 . What is the situation of Ev 13 today on gypsy population? I am interested on this

Arban Hoti
29-11-15, 17:29
Li means to Let to Leave something in a pLace Gur means stone in Arbanian tongue , LiGur means Leave stones , what was the reason for this name maybe a Legend of the Ligurian history can tell us , far as i know the or a part region of Liguria was called Arbenga https://lij.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbenga
Arb is the name of the Arbanians/Arbanese.

Piro Ilir
30-11-15, 21:15
Li means to Let to Leave something in a pLace Gur means stone in Arbanian tongue , LiGur means Leave stones , what was the reason for this name maybe a Legend of the Ligurian history can tell us , far as i know the or a part region of Liguria was called Arbenga https://lij.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbenga
Arb is the name of the Arbanians/Arbanese.
I don't see what's your point here. But I may include that in Europe were two branches of IE people.
1- the firs is the branch of the indigenous people of Europe who became indio-europeanized . In this branch we include either the Pelasgians. The remains of those people are the Albanians, Latin nations and the Celtics.
2- at the second branch are the true and real IE people. The Greeks, the Slavic nations, the Germanic nations.

Arban Hoti
01-12-15, 01:56
My point is to make people realize that the name of the Albanians is in reality Arban , the Arbanoi were mentioned by this name by ancient writers telling the story when the Greeks first came to our land in Argos , these Greeks were called Danoi and the people that they met were called Arban , and now it looks like the Arbanians are E-v13 people and here it is talked about the Ligurians being or having E-v13 , now i brought an linguistic argument about the name Ligur and about the south of Liguria which is still called Arbenga according to wikipedia in Italian , so the Ligurians their name their blood and that name Arb tells that they at some time were Arbanians , the purpose of this is to make it easier and/or to help people understand who the E-v13 ppl were.
But whats your point talking about a ghost people called Indo-European .

Sile
01-12-15, 06:22
http://community.haplozone.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3952.0;attach=4117 ;image

http://community.haplozone.net/index.php?topic=3952.0



Venice seems to have similar distributions of E-V13. Does Veneto have a similar story to Liguria in its distribution?



Where did you get these numbersa for veneto......................in ftdna North-italy, AlPGEN and friuli-Venezie-Giulia...it has very little ...........it does have E-V35 same as the 5 year natgeno study on the area completed in 2010

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/hapoofvenice_zps5df23ee7.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/hapoofvenice_zps5df23ee7.jpg.html)

Maleth
01-12-15, 10:20
Where did you get these numbersa for veneto......................in ftdna North-italy, AlPGEN and friuli-Venezie-Giulia...it has very little ...........it does have E-V35 same as the 5 year natgeno study on the area completed in 2010

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/hapoofvenice_zps5df23ee7.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/hapoofvenice_zps5df23ee7.jpg.html)

you can just click on the link and you will find the source, and anyway you are not talking of too much differences from your pie chart to the map it flactuates between 12 to 8 percent. No big deal ;).......you provided no source on your pie chart Mr. Sile :)

Maleth
01-12-15, 11:33
I don't see what's your point here. But I may include that in Europe were two branches of IE people.
1- the firs is the branch of the indigenous people of Europe who became indio-europeanized . In this branch we include either the Pelasgians. The remains of those people are the Albanians, Latin nations and the Celtics.
2- at the second branch are the true and real IE people. The Greeks, the Slavic nations, the Germanic nations.

Its not as straight forward as that in haplogroups and human migrations.....the story is much more complex then that and we only know a fraction of it.

Skerdilaidas
01-12-15, 16:24
Thanks for your answer. As I know Turks have a small percentage of EV13 . So they can't brought with them the EV13 . With all the respect for them, Turks are completely different from Albanians, both in appearance and in language. But either, there are some strange things on Albanians genetics as I know, but we can't talk here about this issue.

I know this is off topic, but just a short reply. There is nothing 'strange' about Albanian genetics. Please inform yourself before you comment. If there is something you don't understand, please open a thread or reply to a thread that has already been opened. There are few members here that are also mods at the Albanian Bloodlines project at ftdna, including myself, and we would be more then happy to help. If you wish to ask in Albanian, you can go here: foleja.net.

Skerdilaidas
01-12-15, 16:26
Double post

Piro Ilir
03-12-15, 20:55
My point is to make people realize that the name of the Albanians is in reality Arban , the Arbanoi were mentioned by this name by ancient writers telling the story when the Greeks first came to our land in Argos , these Greeks were called Danoi and the people that they met were called Arban , and now it looks like the Arbanians are E-v13 people and here it is talked about the Ligurians being or having E-v13 , now i brought an linguistic argument about the name Ligur and about the south of Liguria which is still called Arbenga according to wikipedia in Italian , so the Ligurians their name their blood and that name Arb tells that they at some time were Arbanians , the purpose of this is to make it easier and/or to help people understand who the E-v13 ppl were.
But whats your point talking about a ghost people called Indo-European .
Why you think that the IE people were or are a ghost?

Piro Ilir
03-12-15, 21:04
I know this is off topic, but just a short reply. There is nothing 'strange' about Albanian genetics. Please inform yourself before you comment. If there is something you don't understand, please open a thread or reply to a thread that has already been opened. There are few members here that are also mods at the Albanian Bloodlines project at ftdna, including myself, and we would be more then happy to help. If you wish to ask in Albanian, you can go here: foleja.net.
I was referring to EV13 which it's higher in gheg Albans, especially to the east ghegs. Otherwise the I2 is higher in tosk Albanians. Why is that?

Piro Ilir
03-12-15, 21:08
Its not as straight forward as that in haplogroups and human migrations.....the story is much more complex then that and we only know a fraction of it.
Generally I have more knowledge about the history. I am an ignorant about genetics. I try to read about genetics, to understand better the history. Definitely I think that the language it's the core of a nation, no matter what's their patriarchal DNA lineage. I only hope that DNA helps me about the history events.

oriental
03-12-15, 23:09
more knowledge about the history

History is only 5,000 years when as invented. Genetics and archaeology help with pre-history and unwritten history.

Also one must consider that history is written by the victors so there is a bias somewhere. There maybe more than two versions to events. Each side writing that are favorable to themselves or justification for their actions.

Maleth
04-12-15, 10:35
Generally I have more knowledge about the history. I am an ignorant about genetics. I try to read about genetics, to understand better the history. Definitely I think that the language it's the core of a nation, no matter what's their patriarchal DNA lineage. I only hope that DNA helps me about the history events.

Terminologies such as Greeks, Germanics, and so on are a very recent creation compared to haplogroups creations and their subgroups. They do not really go well together. We can discuss dominant haplogroups in a particular group but a whole haplogroup is not totally representative of a language or a country as these are taken up and shed off according to economies and power of the time.

Piro Ilir
14-12-15, 13:03
History is only 5,000 years when as invented. Genetics and archaeology help with pre-history and unwritten history.

Also one must consider that history is written by the victors so there is a bias somewhere. There maybe more than two versions to events. Each side writing that are favorable to themselves or justification for their actions.
Agree. I think the genetics helps me to have more knowledge on the events, that's all.

Piro Ilir
14-12-15, 13:13
Terminologies such as Greeks, Germanics, and so on are a very recent creation compared to haplogroups creations and their subgroups. They do not really go well together. We can discuss dominant haplogroups in a particular group but a whole haplogroup is not totally representative of a language or a country as these are taken up and shed off according to economies and power of the time.
Yes, I know that they don't go well together, even so I think the genetics helps us, likewise the archeology and ancient writings, etc. To have a better view onto the historical events, we gather the archeology, genetics and ancient writings, and after we try to make a point.

2- if one today it's born in Italy and his native language is Italian, his ethnicity is Italian, no matter what could be his DNA. I think the language it's the core of the nation. Genetic help just to know better the spread of ancient population

ESpraguer
31-03-17, 18:34
Where did you get these numbersa for veneto......................in ftdna North-italy, AlPGEN and friuli-Venezie-Giulia...it has very little ...........it does have E-V35 same as the 5 year natgeno study on the area completed in 2010

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/hapoofvenice_zps5df23ee7.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/hapoofvenice_zps5df23ee7.jpg.html)

1) Northern Italy is vast so the North Italy Project is not all that dispositive here. Venice is but one city. LOL. Yes, E is like 11-12% in Northern Italy on the whole, and about 9% E-V13.
2) Veneto is a separate province from Friulia-Venezia Giulia. Venice is a coastal city in Veneto. That it is coastal matters a lot.
3) E-V13 is a branch of E-M35. In the north & east of Italy virtually all the E is E-V13 (this means that it is E-M35 also).
4) E-V13 has a strong coastal distribution. That's true pretty much everywhere in Italy, although there is slightly more of it in the mountains & more central parts of the peninsula than along the western coast & in the large west-coast cities, probably due to centuries & centuries of invasions, incursions & immigrations into the west of the peninsula.
5) The east of Veneto, along the coast where Venice is, is a particular hotspot for E-V13. Same with Liguria, except Liguria as a whole is a particular hotspot because Liguria is entirely coastal. The same is not true for Veneto & Friulia-Venezia Giulia, where much of their provincial territory is inland.
6) I don't know where your numbers are from, but I've seen studies that put E at around 20% in Venice & coastal Veneto. Pretty much all of that E is E-V13.

Sile
31-03-17, 19:35
1) Northern Italy is vast so the North Italy Project is not all that dispositive here. Venice is but one city. LOL. Yes, E is like 11-12% in Northern Italy on the whole, and about 9% E-V13.
2) Veneto is a separate province from Friulia-Venezia Giulia. Venice is a coastal city in Veneto. That it is coastal matters a lot.
3) E-V13 is a branch of E-M35. In the north & east of Italy virtually all the E is E-V13 (this means that it is E-M35 also).
4) E-V13 has a strong coastal distribution. That's true pretty much everywhere in Italy, although there is slightly more of it in the mountains & more central parts of the peninsula than along the western coast & in the large west-coast cities, probably due to centuries & centuries of invasions, incursions & immigrations into the west of the peninsula.
5) The east of Veneto, along the coast where Venice is, is a particular hotspot for E-V13. Same with Liguria, except Liguria as a whole is a particular hotspot because Liguria is entirely coastal. The same is not true for Veneto & Friulia-Venezia Giulia, where much of their provincial territory is inland.
6) I don't know where your numbers are from, but I've seen studies that put E at around 20% in Venice & coastal Veneto. Pretty much all of that E is E-V13.

The Nat-geno project was about Venice and the Dogana only , it went from 2005 to 2010 ...........it did not take any data from the veneto unless the sampled people proved that their ancestors ( both sides ) originated from Venice

The E-M35 was mostly SNP L117

Ask Nat-geno to send you their data ...........IIRC it had only 156 samples.

ESpraguer
01-04-17, 00:29
The Nat-geno project was about Venice and the Dogana only , it went from 2005 to 2010 ...........it did not take any data from the veneto unless the sampled people proved that their ancestors ( both sides ) originated from Venice

The E-M35 was mostly SNP L117

Ask Nat-geno to send you their data ...........IIRC it had only 156 samples.

There is an argument to be made that the stricter are the standards the less representative of Venice will be the results. Venice, for a long time, has been riddled with tradesmen, fishermen, ordinary folk. If you want to know the DNA of Venice, go sample the locals. Not people in the diaspora, people in Northern Europe, etc. Moreover, the more documentation you demand, the more likely you are going to skew the results toward the wealthy & well-to-do. If you demand people be able to prove they're from Venice, that their progenitors are from Venice, that their progenitors' progenitors are from Venice, etc. you're basically just sampling the nobility. The numbers you have here therefore are probably more representative of the nobility than Venice as a whole. Look at the extreme R1b numbers! This is exactly what would be expected from such a system. This is like determining the Y-DNA of Americans based upon a sampling of people with the surname "Rockefeller". The Boattini data gives us 70 samples for Veneto as a region. 10% is E-V13 & another 4% other E1b1b. That sounds about right for Veneto as a whole. However, E-V13 has a particular coastal distribution in the east of the Italian peninsula. Therefore I'd expect E-V13 to be slightly to somewhat above 10% in the historic Venetian population, perhaps 12 or 14%. 6-8% seems very, very, very low, but I think it can be explained by the sampling issues I addressed. Poor immigrants & poor residents will be far less likely to be able to prove they are true Venetians.

Angela
01-04-17, 01:11
I don't know how much E-V13 is in Venice and I don't much care, but it is not at all difficult to prove your ancestry in Italy: it's not like the U.S. Most people's ancestors have moved very little if at all. Records are extremely good and in most instances can be traced back to the mid-1500s when the Council of Trent mandated that birth, marriage, etc. records be kept in the parish. Certainly, going back one hundred or two hundred years or more is normally absolutely no problem, so this can't be the explanation.

Sile
01-04-17, 01:39
There is an argument to be made that the stricter are the standards the less representative of Venice will be the results. Venice, for a long time, has been riddled with tradesmen, fishermen, ordinary folk. If you want to know the DNA of Venice, go sample the locals. Not people in the diaspora, people in Northern Europe, etc. Moreover, the more documentation you demand, the more likely you are going to skew the results toward the wealthy & well-to-do. If you demand people be able to prove they're from Venice, that their progenitors are from Venice, that their progenitors' progenitors are from Venice, etc. you're basically just sampling the nobility. The numbers you have here therefore are probably more representative of the nobility than Venice as a whole. Look at the extreme R1b numbers! This is exactly what would be expected from such a system. This is like determining the Y-DNA of Americans based upon a sampling of people with the surname "Rockefeller". The Boattini data gives us 70 samples for Veneto as a region. 10% is E-V13 & another 4% other E1b1b. That sounds about right for Veneto as a whole. However, E-V13 has a particular coastal distribution in the east of the Italian peninsula. Therefore I'd expect E-V13 to be slightly to somewhat above 10% in the historic Venetian population, perhaps 12 or 14%. 6-8% seems very, very, very low, but I think it can be explained by the sampling issues I addressed. Poor immigrants & poor residents will be far less likely to be able to prove they are true Venetians.

I cannot believe you are arguing about 2% ..........all DNA tests regardless of which nation have a few % either way from the results of the samples tested, that is because they do not test 100% of the testables ( if that is a word )

- There where no Venetians prior 452AD ..........there was only Veneti . ..............there where no venetians in Roman times.
The Venetians originate from Treviso, Padua and the Dogana ( lagoon area ) ...........these migrants became Venetians over time.

The Nat-Geno tests IIRC......where to cover about 1000 years ............they also stated
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/venicestr_zpsf46a87a3.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/venicestr_zpsf46a87a3.jpg.html)

The Veneti from Brittany do not match with the Veneti of the Adriatic


To conclude - i know due to archaeology ( Elisa Perego ) .........the Veneti/c people arrived not earlier than 1200BC in the Adriatic and comprise of less than 15% of modern Veneti who must have some % of the indigenous Euganei tribes ( of which Cato the Roman historians state there where 34 towns of Euganei )

ESpraguer
01-04-17, 18:15
I don't know how much E-V13 is in Venice and I don't much care, but it is not at all difficult to prove your ancestry in Italy: it's not like the U.S. Most people's ancestors have moved very little if at all. Records are extremely good and in most instances can be traced back to the mid-1500s when the Council of Trent mandated that birth, marriage, etc. records be kept in the parish. Certainly, going back one hundred or two hundred years or more is normally absolutely no problem, so this can't be the explanation.

-My point was more a general criticism of setting up barriers to sample admission. I'm not sure how great record keeping was in Venice in say the mid-1800s. I'm not sure how expensive it is for citizens or non-citizens to get such information today. My point is simply that the more barriers you set up, the more you will skew the results toward people with the means & the will to acquire such records.
-I simply think you're much better off simply sampling the local population, weeding out recent immigrants, etc.
-I don't know that much about the natgeo study, nor does Sile seem to have provided many details, but at least from what I could glean, they appeared to also be taking samples from Westerners (French, Americans) who claimed Venetian ancestry. I suspect this will further skew the results toward dominant Western haplos like R1b.
-8% just seems very low for an eastern Italian city that was the center of a maritime republic that lasted more than a millennium & incorporated various E-V13 hotspots? E-V13 is what, 16%, 18% in Rimini just down the coast? That 8% number just seems suspect to me, but I don't have a strong position on the subject. Someone should randomly sample the local population.

Angela
01-04-17, 18:32
Any respectable scientific analysis usually follows standard protocol and insures that all four grandparents come from the same area. That is extraordinarily easy to do in any area of Italy.

I personally think that ancestry should be tracked back further, especially in Italy, perhaps to great-grandparents at least, unless the testees are all elderly, so at least we know that the "signal" goes back to the 1860s-1880s. Otherwise, with all the migration from southern Italy to central and northern Italy after that point you are going to get unreliable results.

Sile
01-04-17, 18:33
-My point was more a general criticism of setting up barriers to sample admission. I'm not sure how great record keeping was in Venice in say the mid-1800s. I'm not sure how expensive it is for citizens or non-citizens to get such information today. My point is simply that the more barriers you set up, the more you will skew the results toward people with the means & the will to acquire such records.
-I simply think you're much better off simply sampling the local population, weeding out recent immigrants, etc.
-I don't know that much about the natgeo study, nor does Sile seem to have provided many details, but at least from what I could glean, they appeared to also be taking samples from Westerners (French, Americans) who claimed Venetian ancestry. I suspect this will further skew the results toward dominant Western haplos like R1b.
-8% just seems very low for an eastern Italian city that was the center of a maritime republic that lasted more than a millennium & incorporated various E-V13 hotspots? E-V13 is what, 16%, 18% in Rimini just down the coast? That 8% number just seems suspect to me, but I don't have a strong position on the subject. Someone should randomly sample the local population.

Record keeping in the mid 1800's in Venice was done by the Austrians ...........The hapsburgs are stated as excellent record keepers in those times as well as the Spanish in most of their history and also the Venetian republic till 1797.

If the % is skewed it is only because they have only 156 samples and not 100% of all the people that could be sampled ..........but a 5 year project is a long project and this would seem to me that they took great lengths to ensure that the sampled tested where true Venetians.
You could be correct in that if they found another 100 Venetians the percentages per haplogroups would change and more E could be found .....or not.

just found this below ..........so we have only 99.

the Genographics project released the results of the DNA analyses conducted on the 156 Venetian cheek-swabs we had sent to the Unitat de Biologia Evolutiva (http://www.upf.edu/recerca/grups/ur-bioevol.html) of the Universitat Pompeu Fabra (http://www.upf.edu/en/index.shtml) in Barcelona. After two years of work, we were finally able to look at the DNA evidence which Kyle (http://navigamus.net/) faithfully tallied up for a first look at where we stand, his Canadianess betrayed by the use of French labels in the maps. https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/GV9e66rfE6kyk1uI4ER0qg3PekM9NeGO8qXs6wtNDqZkAX3-9CWTnjrQnJu-4Hdu3XKK8pFzhriR3pRskjscPhRc3Tt1UvBlvlPY87x9sjbfDS kh5vN74zxFvz_YG7w9yG-kymhG7axCRAK7eGJvNYdQ5N-N_kKtnXt17PnecDxkKCvRxiN1R9JOzjJmr7dlFWz3B36WYU5xy f55hOH_tsMLsmJDAvR0SkBTURT7xFRbTRFOPJnuxwxm_TSTLwg sJ72vhpMszt0uuD9UWrhxkRgGCbsgr8lXVU_uNOOEpBydZbY_7 WO67su47ctyu2qWRJ3LacU3AQ=s0-d (http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=p&chtt=Venice+DNA+Results&chs=300x180&chd=t:66,12,12,6,3,23,34&chco=0000FF,FFA500,7CFC00,006400,FF0000,696969,000 000&chl=European%7CRoman%7CGreek%7CPaflagonian%7CIndia n%7CFaulty%7CInvalid)Out of the 156 samples we collected, 57 were not viewable on the Genographic site (https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/index.html) for one of two reasons: 34 were Invalid (not enough DNA?) and 23 others (labeled Faulty in pie chart) simply failed to show up on the site. We have initiated an inquest on these issues and we are hoping to retrieve at least some of these unusable samples. "In the end" (as Adrian is fond of saying), the total number of valid samples thus far is 99.

ESpraguer
01-04-17, 18:45
Record keeping in the mid 1800's in Venice was done by the Austrians ...........The hapsburgs are stated as excellent record keepers in those times as well as the Spanish in most of their history and also the Venetian republic till 1797.

If the % is skewed it is only because they have only 156 samples and not 100% of all the people that could be sampled ..........but a 5 year project is a long project and this would seem to me that they took great lengths to ensure that the sampled tested where true Venetians.
You could be correct in that if they found another 100 Venetians the percentages per haplogroups would change and more E could be found .....or not.

I can't debate the finer points of the analysis because I don't know what "quality standards" were used.
I don't even want to concede that Italian record keeping was fantastic at the time because intuitively it seems wrong, knowing what I know about Italian governance generally. I also don't know what the cost is of procuring official records from various former eras. Venice was under Austrian control for roughly 35 years. There was a lot of conflict, instability & government turnover in the area in the 1800 & 1900s.
I simply looked at the numbers, where some of the samples were from, etc. & saw some red flags.
Does anyone know what filters were used or where the samples were from? Not as far as I can tell. So to some degree we're arguing in a data vacuum.

Angela
01-04-17, 19:03
Oh for goodness' sakes...all birth, marriage, baptismal and death records are kept in the parishes. All you have to do is walk in and look at them. The parish of the spouses, parents, etc. is listed, so you can just go back from there. You would have to be illiterate and unable to walk or use public transportation not to be able to do it.

An uncle of mine traced all of my paternal lines going back to the time of the Council of Trent using only parish records. How hard would it be to go back three generations?

Can people stop opining on things about which they have absolutely no knowledge?

Sile
01-04-17, 19:09
I can't debate the finer points of the analysis because I don't know what "quality standards" were used.
I don't even want to concede that Italian record keeping was fantastic at the time because intuitively it seems wrong, knowing what I know about Italian governance generally. I also don't know what the cost is of procuring official records from various former eras. Venice was under Austrian control for roughly 35 years. There was a lot of conflict, instability & government turnover in the area in the 1800 & 1900s.
I simply looked at the numbers, where some of the samples were from, etc. & saw some red flags.
Does anyone know what filters were used or where the samples were from? Not as far as I can tell. So to some degree we're arguing in a data vacuum.

The tests arranged via Nat-geno is/was initiated by Worcester Polytechnic Institute and I doubt they will run any more DNA testing............they are more concerned in saving the 15kms of texts in the venetian archives using a computer program called UScript ...........they are still there today.

They also developed ArchEasy to compile these manuscripts
ArchEasy. The necessary features ofArchEasy were planned and described, and efforts were made to promote its development.Future funding for ArchEasy will functionalize all of its features, and incorporate the autonomous agent approach, a technology that will render the system capable of semi-autonomous data interpretation. Once fully developed, ArchEasy hopes to greatly increase the efficiency of the Venetian archaeological process.

To conclude, I doubt any more DNA testing will be done

ESpraguer
01-04-17, 21:09
Oh for goodness' sakes...all birth, marriage, baptismal and death records are kept in the parishes. All you have to do is walk in and look at them. The parish of the spouses, parents, etc. is listed, so you can just go back from there. You would have to be illiterate and unable to walk or use public transportation not to be able to do it.

An uncle of mine traced all of my paternal lines going back to the time of the Council of Trent using only parish records. How hard would it be to go back three generations?

Can people stop opining on things about which they have absolutely no knowledge?


1) Woah! You should probably consult your uncle about how easy that was to do. My expectation is it was not very easy, though again, with the right resources it's probably sometimes doable.
2) From what I could glean, some of these "Venetians" were not current residents, they were people in the diaspora, etc. So yeah, it's easy, just buy a plane ticket, fly to Italy, find the right parish among many wrong parishes, sift through numerous parish records for particular names, trace that name to other names in other parishes, connect dot after dot, hoping that there are no gaps or members born elsewhere, no factors which confuse matters like adoptions or illegitimate births, etc. I'm sure you could do it in an afternoon. Indeed, I bet you did it just sitting there typing. You probably divined your own ancestry psychically using only a seance, a cauldron, some myrrh & a pinch of beet root. : )
3) Do we even know how many generations they went back? The premises of this dispute seem extremely slippery, since we know so little about the study.
4) You keep asserting that the record keeping was great. You really haven't offered any evidence for this claim. You just keep asserting & re-asserting it. However, even US governmental record-keeping a mere 100 years ago was pretty darned unreliable. And if there is anything Italians are not known for it's good governance. You also keep claiming it's so easy because "churches kept records". Churches! Ha! I mean, we all know how reliable church records are! And the only evidence you've provided regarding their reliability & the ease with which they're accessed is that your beloved uncle Joe wandered around Naples in a fugue state & did this one afternoon. Very convincing evidence.

*Nothing in this critique was meant to insult your beloved uncle Joe or the afternoon he spent tracing your ancestry back to the Etruscans.

Angela
01-04-17, 22:47
You're an American with absolutely no experience of our system, so your expectations are hardly relevant.

It was my Zio Edoardo, Italian, btw, at least back to the mid-16th century, who made the family tree; not one of those Italian-Americans who often don't even remember the specific town from which their ancestors came. I had to find out for my husband's family, which only took fifteen minutes on the internet looking at immigration records, but they had no idea how to do it.

Also, stop with the straw man arguments. Where did I say that someone could trace all lines back to the mid-1500s quickly? Of course it takes time. However, the standard protocol for these studies is all four grandparents. That's the protocol for all the percentages with which you agree, btw. That'sfour people. Get it? You can do that quickly even if you have to use church records, which you don't for anything in the last 150 years and more. You can just contact the appropriate government agency and they'll give you the whole run down back at least that far. There are whole websites set up so Italian-Americans can do it.

I have said numerous times that beyond that point (Council of Trent) nothing can be proved because there are no records. Well, there are records, but usually scanty, sometimes using only first names, and at any rate not reliable enough to draw a clear genealogical chart. By those standards, I could track some of my father's lines back to the mid-1300s and the founding of his ancestral maternal village. Their name is engraved helpfully over the gate to the village along with the date. So no, I can't prove descent from the Etruscans or the later Romans or even the population present in those villages in the beginning of the Dark Ages. I never said that I could, so, again, stop with the straw man arguments.

Actually, I did most of the research on my mother's side, and indeed, a lot of it has been digitized, sometimes by the local authorities, sometimes, believe it or not, by the LDS. I got a lot of lines back to the 1600s using those digitized records at a branch of their local library.

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

While I'm at it, enough with the OCD please. As Sile has already pointed out what difference does a few percent make? No one sample has results that can be engraved in stone.

kuzmosi
20-06-18, 19:41
Do we know the distribution of Italian EV 13 members? (Z5017, Z5018 and other?)

Angela
20-06-18, 20:38
People, please don't encourage this...

kuzmosi
21-06-18, 13:21
I don't understand.....

kuzmosi
22-06-18, 09:26
From Greece we know that in the North the Z5017 is the common, but in South Greece the Z5018 is the common EV13 subclade. This means that, among the "classical" greek's main EV-13 branch was the Z5018, but among the thracians and the makedons it was the Z5017.

Similar data are also interested in other countries (for example Italy) from which we can learn more about our EV 13 family.

I would also interested in Garibaldi's exact subgroup. He was a ligurian if I knew it well.

ELIOV13
24-06-18, 22:31
sono in alto mare in giro. Avrebbero ricostruito l'analisi precedente, dove al massimo abbiamo raggiunto il V13. Personalmente provengo dall'area ligure, sono positivo per cts 5856 e negativo sia per Z5017 che per Z5018. Ho un amico in Piemonte che positivo per Z5017 e precisamente EBY4281.
Deve ancora essere scritto. Ci vorr un po 'di tempo.

Salento
25-06-18, 04:18
sono in alto mare in giro. Avrebbero ricostruito l'analisi precedente, dove al massimo abbiamo raggiunto il V13. Personalmente provengo dall'area ligure, sono positivo per cts 5856 e negativo sia per Z5017 che per Z5018. Ho un amico in Piemonte che è positivo per Z5017 e precisamente EBY4281.
Deve ancora essere scritto. Ci vorrà un po 'di tempo.


“sono in alto mare in giro” ???
Maybe you made a mistake.
That’s not how we usually say it.

More or less this is how we say it:
Giro in Alto Mare.
Sto Girando in Alto Mare,
Sto Girovagando in Alto Mare,
Sperduto in Alto Mare,
Perso in Alto Mare,
Sto in Alto Mare,
Mi trovo in Alto Mare,
Mi sto perdendo in Alto Mare,
.........., .....
(meaning: I’m unable to find what I’m looking for, I’m clueless, I’m Lost, ...)

Angela said not to encourage this, is that why you are not writing in English?

ELIOV13
25-06-18, 22:34
No, I'm sorry. It was a mistake in the translation. I mean to say that, unfortunately, in an important nation like Italy, they have not yet reached deep levels. And therefore, so many options are still open in order to know better the story of the descendants of our ancestors V13.The interest is still always high and, I hope, to be able to better understand by more competent people. Good day.

kuzmosi
26-06-18, 17:03
Grazie, se ci sono nuovi, risultati più accurati, per favore fatemelo sapere.

Thanks, if there are new, more accurate results please let me know.

Can we know Garibaldi's exact subgroup?

Aspurg
06-07-18, 17:51
Can we know Garibaldi's exact subgroup?


Garibaldi didn't do SNP's yet but he is 100 % E-FGC11450. Not sure yet which clade under. In Liguria there is a concentration of FGC11450 especially in La Spezia. In study "The Greeks in the West genetic signatures of the Hellenic colonisation in southern Italy and Sicily" on a sample of 43 no less than 5 seem to be FGC11450 so 11.6 % of FGC11450 there.
To confirm this there is another Italian from Genova that seems FGC11450.

Angela
06-07-18, 23:00
Well, so much for all that discussion about how the y chromosome determines men's looks. He looks like an American Civil War general.


General John Bell Hood
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/2a/45/8d/2a458de68c82bf7f9db02cab587387d1--hoods-leveon-bell.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/u2JL1g0.png

Pax Augusta
06-07-18, 23:07
Grazie, se ci sono nuovi, risultati più accurati, per favore fatemelo sapere.

Thanks, if there are new, more accurate results please let me know.

Can we know Garibaldi's exact subgroup?


How can we know? That Giuseppe Garibaldi is E-V13 is an assumption based on the self-report data of someone with same surname in FTDNA.


Anyway this Garibaldi on FTDNA is listed as E-M35, not as E-V13. Has it been changed? Or has it always been so?


https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Italy?iframe=yresults

Aspurg
07-07-18, 00:22
How can we know? That Giuseppe Garibaldi is E-V13 is an assumption based on the self-report data of someone with same surname in FTDNA.

I don't know about their genealogical links, but Garibaldi did descend from Genova, and other than this Garibaldi there is another haplotype that seems to be of same clade from Genova (90196), without surname. Yet they are 17/67 indicating relatively longer presence of FGC11450 in Liguria. Definitely at least late antiquity.



Anyway this Garibaldi on FTDNA is listed as E-M35, not as E-V13. Has it been changed? Or has it always been so?


https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Italy?iframe=yresults

It is probably an old designation, as he never tested SNP's but from today's perspective when we know which STR values determine many clades, it can be said with certainty that as he has dys617=11 (slow mutating, typical value for all FGC11451+, modal for V13 is 13) and GATAH4=10 (typical for FGC11451>FGC11450), he basically is FGC11451+ and also highly likely FGC11450+, considering that a bunch of other Ligurian haplotypes also have GATAH4=10. Additionally there are two other Italian likely FGC11450 on ftdna, there is also one on Yfull one FGC11450* from the large Cagliari sample, might be related to some of them.

Not sure what the mystery of this clades presence in Liguria is, but one might study the past of La Spezia for some clues as it seems most common there.

hehe
12-10-18, 09:14
Could anyone explain how, if the main E1b subclade found in Liguria is V13, Napoleon ended up in subclade M34 when his oldest known ancestor apparently came from southern Liguria?