PDA

View Full Version : Gedrosian+Caucasian - a single admixture?



Tomenable
29-07-15, 14:28
When I look at Eupedia maps of Gedrosian admixture and then of Cacuasian admixture, I can see that they show high Caucasian admixture in places with low Gedrosian admixture, and high Gedrosian admixture in places with low Caucasian admixture.

I'm wondering if it is not just some kind of error, because here user Kurd explains, that it is practically the same thing:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5028-POST-EURASIA-K20-ADMIXTURE-amp-ORACLE-RESULTS-HERE


3- You will notice that Caucasus/Gedrosia is a single component. This is due to the fact that Caucasus and Gedrosia are not very differentiated signals, and I did not take extra measures to attempt to separate them.

So perhaps calculators which distinguish Caucasian from Gedrosian, differentiate between them in very strange ways, and assign to some populations only Gedrosian, while to some populations only Caucasian, while in fact both have the same ancient origin.

Perhaps this should be counted as one and the same admixture, just like Kurd did in his Eurasia K20 calculator.

How would an admixture map counting Caucasian+Gedrosian as the same thing look like ???

LeBrok
29-07-15, 17:05
Yep, we've been addressing this issue few times. It seems that calculators are confused about these two admixtures. As you said it might be a single component. A characteristic component of IEs.

Alan
29-07-15, 19:20
When I look at Eupedia maps of Gedrosian admixture and then of Cacuasian admixture, I can see that they show high Caucasian admixture in places with low Gedrosian admixture, and high Gedrosian admixture in places with low Caucasian admixture.


I'm wondering if it is not just some kind of error, because here user Kurd explains, that it is practically the same thing:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5028-POST-EURASIA-K20-ADMIXTURE-amp-ORACLE-RESULTS-HERE



So perhaps calculators which distinguish Caucasian from Gedrosian, differentiate between them in very strange ways, and assign to some populations only Gedrosian, while to some populations only Caucasian, while in fact both have the same ancient origin.

Perhaps this should be counted as one and the same admixture, just like Kurd did in his Eurasia K20 calculator.

How would an admixture map counting Caucasian+Gedrosian as the same thing look like ???

That is the best indication that it is almost the same because where Caucasus is high there is no need for allot of Gedrosia since those components replace each other. Based on fst Distance they are very close. And both of them are one component in the lower up until k12b.

Both Caucasus and Gedrosia are basically a mixture of EEF and ANE. Just Caucasus is more like 80% EEF and 20% ANE, while Gedrosia is 60/40 EEF/Gedrosia.

Gedrosia/Caucasus/Atlantic_Med mixture is more linked to herders while Atlantic_Med/Caucasus more to cereal farmers. The division of proto Caucaso-Gedrosian into Caucasus and Gedrosia is probably very recent, around the late Neolithic.

arvistro
31-07-15, 22:07
Just adding both Eupedia maps for reference here:
Caucasus
7383

Gedrosia
7384

arvistro
31-07-15, 23:06
How I would interpret both admixtures:
Caucasus seems to follow Early Farmers. Although it peaks in Georgia (?), further it decreases in following direction:
Caucasus -> Anatolia -> Greece/Italy/Balkans -> Romania/Moldova -> East Europe/Baltics

Gedrosia is strange. It peaks East Caucasus and probably further East. And then there is another local peak in UK.
One node is East Caucasus -> Caucasus -> Anatolia
Other node is ... -> UK -> West Europe

..and then there is thingy about Gedrosia rich folk in Baltics during Corded Ware which got replaced with 0 Gedrosia folk later.

LeBrok
01-08-15, 01:44
How I would interpret both admixtures:
Caucasus seems to follow Early Farmers. Although it peaks in Georgia (?), further it decreases in following direction:
Caucasus -> Anatolia -> Greece/Italy/Balkans -> Romania/Moldova -> East Europe/Baltics

Gedrosia is strange. It peaks East Caucasus and probably further East. And then there is another local peak in UK.
One node is East Caucasus -> Caucasus -> Anatolia
Other node is ... -> UK -> West Europe

..and then there is thingy about Gedrosia rich folk in Baltics during Corded Ware which got replaced with 0 Gedrosia folk later.
IIRC they were both missing in first farmers.

arvistro
01-08-15, 12:33
I know. Perhaps EEF was component in Caucasus, and something else in Gedrosia.

Alan
01-08-15, 13:53
Just adding both Eupedia maps for reference here:
Caucasus
7383

Gedrosia
7384


I realized that the Caucasus map is incorrect for the Iranian Plateau. Caucasus reaches 37% in Behar Iranians (Behar confirmed they are from South Iran). On the map howecer it shows 20-30%

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GWhNZcfTQ2hMSK9Ni1IqG7aXHB00SRE5L6ED2osPs9M/edit#gid=0

arvistro
01-08-15, 17:20
IIRC they were both missing in first farmers.
But Kennewick and Anwick man both had Gedrosia at around 8% and 0% Caucasus.
Interesting.

Hauteville
01-08-15, 18:17
Caucasus has the same distribution of West Asian.
These are the same components (peaks in Caucasus indeed) while Gedrosian peaks among the Balochis.

LeBrok
01-08-15, 19:57
But Kennewick and Anwick man both had Gedrosia at around 8% and 0% Caucasus.
Interesting. I think Gedrosia used to be more eastern/central Asia. Caucasian was more southern/caucasus/middle eastern. If anything ancestors of Ameridians had contact with Gedrosia people but not with Caucasian.

PaschalisB
01-08-15, 20:28
They are not the same component in the calculator used to make these maps (Dodecad K12b). Caucasus came to Europe with the neolithic farmers. Gedrosia came during the Iron Age.

Hauteville
01-08-15, 22:12
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3086&d=1417506054

LeBrok
02-08-15, 00:15
They are not the same component in the calculator used to make these maps (Dodecad K12b). Caucasus came to Europe with the neolithic farmers. Gedrosia came during the Iron Age.
Did Caucasian (not Caucasus) come in early or late Neolithic?

LeBrok
02-08-15, 00:15
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3086&d=1417506054
I can't log in, and probably many others. What does it say?

Hauteville
02-08-15, 00:38
Ok here is that image above about Caucasus and Gedrosian.
http://s13.postimg.org/3uttl34qf/11802128_861282573921229_593805277_n.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
free image hosting (http://postimage.org/index.php?lang=italian)

Hauteville
02-08-15, 10:00
I can't log in, and probably many others. What does it say?
It's that map
7386

arvistro
02-08-15, 10:46
Btw, do we have 12k for Turkish early farmer? Does he show any Caucasus/Gedrosia?

As a side note Gedrosia shows up in Mesolithic EHGs if I am not mistaken. Long before iron age.

Alan
02-08-15, 14:58
Did Caucasian (not Caucasus) come in early or late Neolithic?

As I wrote above. Some Caucasus came with the early Neolithic cereal farmers while Gedrosia with the late Neolithic herders. cereal farmers= Atlantic_Med, Caucasus and some NW African/SW Asian. late Neolithic herders = Gedrosia, Caucasus and Atlantic_Med.

Alan
02-08-15, 15:00
Gedrosia is strange. It peaks East Caucasus and probably further East. And then there is another local peak in UK.



Gedrosia peaks in the Southeastern corner of the Iranian Plateau (Balochistan in Western Asia). But take in mind where a component peaks nowadays is not where it originates. Balochis are a NW Iranic speaking tribe and in combination to their oral stories of coming from Kurdistan It seems very likely that this component had it's peak somewhere here.

Alan
02-08-15, 15:03
It's that map
7386

Gedrosia basically peaks in Balochi territory. Balochistan which was always considered part of the Iranian plateau. Modern state borders do not really play a significant role for that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balochistan

The same with Caucasus it peaks in West/Northwest Caucasus and is stretched too far into Northeast Caucasian territory (where Gedrosia has another peak at almost 30%).

Alan
02-08-15, 15:07
Btw, do we have 12k for Turkish early farmer? Does he show any Caucasus/Gedrosia?

As a side note Gedrosia shows up in Mesolithic EHGs if I am not mistaken. Long before iron age.


This is why I am saying that R1b and R1a are connected to a pre EHG component which is close to Gedrosia. It doesn't need to be Gedrosia proper but it's a component very similar to it and probably formed Gedrosia. In every ancient R1 and R2 population (expect for maybe the Iberian Neolithic sample) you find a signficant portion of Gedrosia. And since the Iberian Neolithic farmer with R1b V88 had no Gedrosia but Caucasus it seems to me very plausible that this Haplogroup went there from a contact region or even place of common origin of these Caucasus and Gedrosia components.

Hauteville
02-08-15, 15:15
Gedrosia basically peaks in Balochi territory. Balochistan which was always considered part of the Iranian plateau. Modern state borders do not really play a significant role for that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balochistan

The same with Caucasus it peaks in West/Northwest Caucasus and is stretched too far into Northeast Caucasian territory (where Gedrosia has another peak at almost 30%).
It's a map made by anthrogenica's users not by me.

Hauteville
02-08-15, 15:17
Gedrosia peaks in the Southeastern corner of the Iranian Plateau (Balochistan in Western Asia). But take in mind where a component peaks nowadays is not where it originates. Balochis are a NW Iranic speaking tribe and in combination to their oral stories of coming from Kurdistan It seems very likely that this component had it's peak somewhere here.
These are Balochis?
https://camel4all.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/balochi-music-pipe.jpg

Alan
02-08-15, 16:27
These are Balochis?
https://camel4all.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/balochi-music-pipe.jpg

Yes, Balochis usually look like Kurds with a significant Indian type admixture in their look. Since they have something between 10-23% (depending on the Calculator) Indian admixture in them from Indian Muslims who fled from India to Balochistan. There is also a very small minority of people of Sub Saharan(among the Makrani group) among the Balochi.

Here some Balochis from Pakistan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw0lHUomjWI

Tomenable
06-08-15, 03:54
Thanks for all the responses guys!

MOESAN
08-08-15, 00:34
I gave my points (non identity between Caucasus and Gedrosia, at the origin) in another thread (maybe in a thread about Corded and today Balts). If of some use.

MOESAN
08-08-15, 00:35
effectively, a more Northern position than today Baluchistan, somewhere in southern Steppes or North the Hindu Kush...