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Jana
08-08-15, 05:05
All four of my grandparents were born in the Netherlands and all of my ancestry that I can trace, some of it back almost 500 years, is of Dutch origin. Yet, my autosomal DNA results came out 58% Scandinavian and only 42% West and Central European. What is the link between Scandinavia and the Netherlands?

LeBrok
08-08-15, 05:50
Welcome to Eupedia Jana.

I'm not sure about U5b, but U5 is pan European at the moment, and could have been like this for thousands of years. At this time it has the strongest signature in Scandinavia, but it doesn't mean it started there. It just found a very fertile ground there to grow. ;)
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-U5-map.png
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_U5_mtDNA.shtml

Fire Haired14
08-08-15, 06:15
All four of my grandparents were born in the Netherlands and all of my ancestry that I can trace, some of it back almost 500 years, is of Dutch origin. Yet, my autosomal DNA results came out 58% Scandinavian and only 42% West and Central European. What is the link between Scandinavia and the Netherlands?

Maybe 23andme(if you tested with them) doesn't have a Dutch reference. Dutch as far as I know are very Scandinavian-like compared to Germans. They're the closest modern relatives to Ancient DNA from Medieval Anglo Saxons of England according to a recent study. So Dutch probably have a lot of decent from early Germanic-speakers who originated around Scandinavia and just south of it.

You should do the Eurogenes K15 test at GEDmatch. There are reference samples from the Netherlands and you'll definitely cluster with them since you're Dutch. U5 is over 25,000 years old and U5b isn't much younger. They're not specific to any modern ethnic group. It is a maternal legacy of Upper Palaeolithic Europeans.

U5b2a probably colonized Central/North Europe after the Ice age, was absorbed by Near Eastern farmers who arrived in Central/North Europe in 5000 BC, and then was absorbed again by Indo European-speaking migrants from East Europe circa 2500 BC. I also have U5b2a and my line is from Germany. U5b2a is one of the most popular U5-clades in Central/North/East Europe.

bicicleur
08-08-15, 10:11
is your ancestry north of the river Rhine?
the river Rhine was, and still is an important frontier
it was the frontier of the Roman empire
for centuries they stopped or reduced the inflow of Germanic tribes
south of the river Rhine there was a mixture of Celtic and Germanic tribes
north of the river Rhine the Germanic tribes had allready expelled all Celtic tribes before Julius Ceasar reached the river Rhine.

MOESAN
03-09-15, 22:52
Bicicleur, just to temper: Rhine was no more a barrier in the subsequent centuries of germanic colonization, rather a boulevard, it was a barrier for some time too in northern Germany-Netherlands at celtic times before becoming a longer and more southern barrier at Rome times; after, it did only slowen the mixtures; in the today Netherlands it act as a RELATIVE border, begun a bit gradual; in South it seems no more a border; no surprise; old surveys shew the Rhine acted as a way of colonization for Germanics as other rivers, under the Main and until Switzerland: more germanic populations in valleys, more celtic (+ pre-celtic + maybe (little) roman populations in the hills and mountains (Vôsges, Schwarzwalde). At finer scale, it is not sure the Mainz surroundings did not keep some traces of Roman and romanized colons...

MOESAN
03-09-15, 22:53
By the way, I think Frisians of the XX° Cy are the closest to Scandinavians

Belmonde
25-10-16, 07:16
This must be an individual case of yours if the datasets of the company are not scarce.

Maciamo
25-10-16, 08:01
There is a strong North-South gradient in ancestry in the Netherlands. Frisian Dutch might be closer to Danes than to Southern Dutch people. That's simply because ancient Germanic peolpe expanded south from Denmark and Schleswig-Holstein and that the closer one is from the source the more Scandinavian one's genome tends to be.

As bicicleur said, the Rhine also marks an important historical boundary between Gallo-Romans and Germanics. Southern provinces like Limburg and Noord-Brabant are much closer to Belgium genetically but also culturally - not to mention historically as they are both the Dutch part of former Belgian medieval states.


All four of my grandparents were born in the Netherlands and all of my ancestry that I can trace, some of it back almost 500 years, is of Dutch origin. Yet, my autosomal DNA results came out 58% Scandinavian and only 42% West and Central European. What is the link between Scandinavia and the Netherlands?

Which company gave you those results? You notice that there is no Dutch category. So it's essentially Germanic (Scandinavian) vs Celtic (West and Central European), and your ratio makes me think more of the south of the Netherlands than to to the north. You are almost half Gallo-Roman. That's not what I would call nearly Scandinavian.

Moi-même
25-10-16, 11:29
I heard from a Dutch genealogist that people of Netherlands score heavily Scandinavian in the commercial admixture test.

bicicleur
25-10-16, 11:40
Bicicleur, just to temper: Rhine was no more a barrier in the subsequent centuries of germanic colonization, rather a boulevard, it was a barrier for some time too in northern Germany-Netherlands at celtic times before becoming a longer and more southern barrier at Rome times; after, it did only slowen the mixtures; in the today Netherlands it act as a RELATIVE border, begun a bit gradual; in South it seems no more a border; no surprise; old surveys shew the Rhine acted as a way of colonization for Germanics as other rivers, under the Main and until Switzerland: more germanic populations in valleys, more celtic (+ pre-celtic + maybe (little) roman populations in the hills and mountains (Vôsges, Schwarzwalde). At finer scale, it is not sure the Mainz surroundings did not keep some traces of Roman and romanized colons...

in peacefull times the Rhine is not a border, but in wartime it is
remember WW II
Belgium was liberated in 1944, but Holland north of the Rhine wasn't, resulting in the 'hunger winter' of 1944-45
There were also battles to take the bridges across the Rhine in Germany

on the other hand, the Franks invaded the Roman empire in wintertime, when the Rhine was frozen

the Rhine was also an important border during the Spanish inquisition in Belgium
many of the Belgian elite fled to the protestant Netherlands, across the Rhine delta to be safe for the oppressors

MOESAN
05-11-16, 01:38
in peacefull times the Rhine is not a border, but in wartime it is
remember WW II
Belgium was liberated in 1944, but Holland north of the Rhine wasn't, resulting in the 'hunger winter' of 1944-45
There were also battles to take the bridges across the Rhine in Germany

on the other hand, the Franks invaded the Roman empire in wintertime, when the Rhine was frozen

the Rhine was also an important border during the Spanish inquisition in Belgium
many of the Belgian elite fled to the protestant Netherlands, across the Rhine delta to be safe for the oppressors

I shall temperate my own first post to you;
in fact rivers are rather a link close to their sources and along their course but very often began to be a frontier at their mouth near the sea when they are broadened;
yes, Rhine river acted as a border at some times of History I don't denied it, but borders move as we know, and even at its mouth it has not always been a frontier; so we have a gradiant, but not a too smooth one it's true; the regions just north of it have pops halfway to northerners in some way.
So I agree with you and Maciamo for a great part spite I splitted hairs.

Northener
05-11-16, 13:21
All four of my grandparents were born in the Netherlands and all of my ancestry that I can trace, some of it back almost 500 years, is of Dutch origin. Yet, my autosomal DNA results came out 58% Scandinavian and only 42% West and Central European. What is the link between Scandinavia and the Netherlands?

Welkom Jana! I just read your posting, may be this can make things more clear:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32972-Phenotypes-of-North-western-Europe-a-case-study-the-Northern-Netherlands

Sennevini
05-11-16, 14:26
Do they give a separate Dutch-ancestry? Because at least few years ago, they did not, and just divided the ancestry among German, French, and "general" Northern European.

Twilight
05-11-16, 16:03
Do they give a separate Dutch-ancestry? Because at least few years ago, they did not, and just divided the ancestry among German, French, and "general" Northern European.

Im afraid not, Holland was built under the lands of Middle Francia; between West Francia; France and East Francia; Holy Roman Empire. DNA testing only can test for your ancestry from Antiquity. If you want to know how much Dutch you have, Geneology is your best bet. France and Germany have a similar history as Holland in antiquity since the Rhine River starts in Holland; the Romans Mentioned that the Rhine River was the rough borderline between Germanics and Galls; some Germanic tribes were reputed to have been intermerryinf with the Gauls on some occasions such as the Belgae.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Francia

http://www.rollintl.com/roll/rhine.htm

Northener
05-11-16, 17:18
sorry, double posting

Northener
05-11-16, 17:21
The history of the Netherlands begins with the Franks? The Rhine starts in the Netherlands?
ok...!?


Im afraid not, Holland was built under the lands of Middle Francia; between West Francia; France and East Francia; Holy Roman Empire. DNA testing only can test for your ancestry from Antiquity. If you want to know how much Dutch you have, Geneology is your best bet. France and Germany have a similar history as Holland in antiquity since the Rhine River starts in Holland; the Romans Mentioned that the Rhine River was the rough borderline between Germanics and Galls; some Germanic tribes were reputed to have been intermerryinf with the Gauls on some occasions such as the Belgae.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Francia

http://www.rollintl.com/roll/rhine.htm

Twilight
05-11-16, 19:11
The history of the Netherlands begins with the Franks? The Rhine starts in the Netherlands?
ok...!?

You misread what I said, the Gauls and Germanic tribes both settled in the Netherlands. Of course history doesn't start with the Franks, didn't even say that. It's just that The franks had a land stretching from present day France, Holland and Germany. History of the Netherlands begins way earlier than the Franks. The Germanic Tribes, Gauls and even Stone Age Hunter Gatherers were in Holland before the Frankish Kingdom was established.

Anyway, here is the map of the Rhine River, here is where the Rhrine dumps out into the North Sea.
http://www.rollintl.com/roll/rhine.htm

Here is the Wikipedia link of the Franks
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks

Here is the link to the Gauls; including Belgae Gauls.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaul

Northener
05-11-16, 20:03
You misread what I said, the Gauls and Germanic tribes both settled in the Netherlands. Of course history doesn't start with the Franks, didn't even say that. It's just that The franks had a land in stretching from present day France, Holland and Germany. History of the Netherlands begins way earlier than the Franks. The Germanic Tribes, Gauls and even Stone Age Hunter Gatherers were in Holland before the Frankish Kingdom was established.

Anyway, here is the map of the Rhine River, here is where the Rhrine dumps out into the North Sea.
http://www.rollintl.com/roll/rhine.htm

Here is the Wikipedia link of the Franks
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks
Here is the link to the Gauls; including Belgae Gauls.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaul


The essence of you statement, as I read it, is: 'DNA testing only can test for your ancestry from Antiquity' and that's why you can't have have separate Dutch DNA test!? I don't follow this reason. I think the situation in the Netherlands is not different from let's say Denmark, England or Germany... So or we have a strange kind of miscommunication or it's a lack of knowledge of the Dutch past...

Northener
06-11-16, 22:48
You misread what I said, the Gauls and Germanic tribes both settled in the Netherlands. Of course history doesn't start with the Franks, didn't even say that. It's just that The franks had a land stretching from present day France, Holland and Germany. History of the Netherlands begins way earlier than the Franks. The Germanic Tribes, Gauls and even Stone Age Hunter Gatherers were in Holland before the Frankish Kingdom was established.

Anyway, here is the map of the Rhine River, here is where the Rhrine dumps out into the North Sea.
http://www.rollintl.com/roll/rhine.htm

Here is the Wikipedia link of the Franks
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks

Here is the link to the Gauls; including Belgae Gauls.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaul

May be we miscommunicate, but I have no reason to believe why you can't make a separate DNA of the Dutch-ancestry like that of the Danes, Germans or Englishman.....

ajbosma
04-02-19, 13:00
Scandinavian DNA comes from the frisians (=Anglo-Saxons). They emigrated from Denmark to the Netherlands (and the UK) around 400-450. Highest presence along the coast and along the river Rhine provinces Holland, Utrecht, Friesland, Groningen and the area of the Betuwe.

ajbosma
04-02-19, 13:03
So Frisian/Aglo-Saxon DNA comes from the Jutes, Angles and Saxons.

Northener
09-04-19, 19:13
So Frisian/Aglo-Saxon DNA comes from the Jutes, Angles and Saxons.
Yes partly....and because Westergo was abandoned In the fourth century there it was most probably a big majority.


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Tomenable
09-04-19, 21:55
This is possible for Northern Dutch.

matty74
10-04-19, 05:44
Ahh that makes sense. This does explain the heavy English/Scottish/Irish ancestry estimates via my DNA tests and why I felt the Scandinavian aspect of my background was overstated.

Would Ostfriesland be considered "Northern Dutch" and/or heavily Scandinavian? I know they emigrated as German nationals. Still have distant relatives over in Ostfriesland (Emden & Leer) and Schleswig-Holstein. Some did arrive in the US around 1951-52. I also have fairly recent Danish, Norwegian and additional recent German ancestry from Windheim near the River Weser, Uelzen and Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania. It does appear the DNA services have difficulty in sorting out the differences but then again, I'm a mix of all the above, so...

Northener
10-04-19, 10:48
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauci
Ahh that makes sense. This does explain the heavy English/Scottish/Irish ancestry estimates via my DNA tests and why I felt the Scandinavian aspect of my background was overstated.

Would Ostfriesland be considered "Northern Dutch" and/or heavily Scandinavian? I know they emigrated as German nationals. Still have distant relatives over in Ostfriesland (Emden & Leer) and Schleswig-Holstein. Some did arrive in the US around 1951-52. I also have fairly recent Danish, Norwegian and additional recent German ancestry from Windheim near the River Weser, Uelzen and Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania. It does appear the DNA services have difficulty in sorting out the differences but then again, I'm a mix of all the above, so...
Ost-Friesland had a certain depopulation in the fourth century too but way les than on the West Frisian side. Ost-Friesland was Chauci territory. Those Chauci expanded also to the North Dutch territory, to nearby Groningen and Drenthe. The Chauci became part of the Saxons. As such complete comparable with early Anglo-Saxon samples. Indeed related to the Jastorf culture.

The area Emden and Leer was deeply influenced by the Dutch culture, until the nineteenth century the language of the church was in certain parts Dutch. Emden was also a refuge post in the sixteenth century for all kind of dissenters....


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BertV
05-06-19, 08:05
It also depends which test you take.

23andMe is getting better at removing Skandinavian (up to 25% to below 10%) over the years... putting our Dutch dna into their "French & German" category.


LivingDNA will give you a lot of British. (50+% in my case)

Northener
08-06-19, 13:26
I also get often Scandic results. This is IMO the explanation.

I think Davidski/Eurogenes (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/05/who-were-people-of-nordic-bronze-age.html) has made this clear. Recently he showed that there is some kind of continuity in the Nordic genetic profile between LN-BA and now. My family (and especially my mother and I) belong to that cluster.


See the (added) Nordic Bronze Age PCA of Davidski (I'm Finn):
https://www.mupload.nl/img/6bp4o7elv.png


The Nordic LNBA cluster is basically a blend between Neolithic Funnelbeaker (TRB, an Ertebølle/ Neolithic farmer mix) and the highly Steppe Single Grave Culture (SGC)/ NW Bell Beaker.
The SGC and the BB hotspots are mainly found in the North Dutch area and are overlapping. Than you speak about NW Dutch (above Amsterdam, from the Olalde samples), the Veluwe in the middle of NE Dutch, and Drenthe in the outmost NE Dutch. That are the area's were the SGC and the BB flourished. And these were also the only places were the TRB existed (TRB=NE Dutch)!


The LNBA genetic of the North Dutch is therefore close to the Scandic one, my family fits even nowadays in the Nordic Bronze Age (LNBA) corner.


For the South Dutch is this not so much the case. North Dutch are more LNBA Nordic so TRB/SGC/BB mixtures. You can see it even in the SNP's that have an effect on the phenotype. The North Dutch are taller (Steppe influence) and lighter featured (TRB influence). In depth research (Oskar Lao e.a. 2013 (https://investigativegenetics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/2041-2223-4-9)and Abdel Abdellaoui e.a. 2013 (https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201348)) has shown that this North (above the Rhine) and South (below the Rhine) difference is the only real significant one in the Dutch context.

So in the end North Dutch are much more likely to cluster with Scandinavian than South Dutch.

Bygdedweller
22-07-19, 01:28
The Dutch have had lots of connections to Scandinavia, historically. For instance, the city of Gothenburg in Sweden was founded and laid out by Dutch city planners and legislators. For a period of time they even spoke Dutch there.

Adding to that, I know that Norway has had lots of connections to the Netherlands through the timber-trade.
I wouldn't be able to tell you whether it had a significant effect on the overall Dutch DNA, but historically there was even a large wave of immigration of Norwegian peoples to the Netherlands in the 17th and 18th century. Most of the people that migrated came from coastal cities in Norway that were connected to the Dutch shipbuilding-industry. Lots of them moved to Amsterdam, and apparently the population of Norwegians living in Amsterdam was at one point similar in size to the amount of Norwegians living in Bergen (Norway's capital city at the time).
There is also the Viking-era, but I have no clue how much pillaging and raiding took place in Netherlands.

I personally tend to get a very close proximity to North Dutch on several Eurogenes-calculators, even if I have no known Dutch ancestry. On some it's even closer than Norwegian or other Scandinavian populations, which is quite interesting.

ajbosma
08-10-19, 18:49
My father is Frisian and in eurogenes k15 he scores NO (Norway). In myheritage he scores 50% scan, 30% english and 20% nw european. That result is similar to a Danish result.
In english DNA research they can't tell the difference between a Dane and an Anglo-Saxon.

ajbosma
08-10-19, 18:58
In the Netherlands the 3 shouthern provinces are more a Myheritage mix of english, nw european. The eastern part of the netherlands is partly saxon so more scandinavian than the south but not as much as the have influenced frisian parts of friesland, groningen en noord holland. Zuid Holland, Utrecht are more a mix of the south and the north also because of more recent migrations.

ajbosma
08-10-19, 19:09
Ost-frisian is the old chauci land. And chauci=saxon. Ost frisian was party deserted in 450-..., they set sail to England and The Netherland. Maybe juts and angles filled up the gap the left behind.

torzio
09-10-19, 00:14
Ost-frisian is the old chauci land. And chauci=saxon. Ost frisian was party deserted in 450-..., they set sail to England and The Netherland. Maybe juts and angles filled up the gap the left behind.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_counts_of_East_Frisia

The where still around as per link

Tomenable
09-10-19, 04:03
What is the link between Scandinavia and the Netherlands?

Northern Netherlands were settled by many migrants from Scandinavia:

https://www.mupload.nl/img/jenh2hstc3v3c.png

matty74
09-10-19, 04:42
https://i.imgur.com/RWfkUBA.png

https://i.imgur.com/KsZP68W.png