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arvistro
18-08-15, 12:02
New article on the subject:
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/aug/17/mass-grave-prehistoric-warfare-ancient-european-farming-community-neolithic

bicicleur
18-08-15, 12:39
it seems LBK people were only able to survive on the fertile loess soils, and once all these grounds were occupied, fighting started

it also seems this was the end of the expansion of G2a

Lengyel - Rössen - TRB seem to have depended less on crops and more on domesticated animals and dairy products and more I and J haplogroups were involved

Angela
19-08-15, 20:03
it seems LBK people were only able to survive on the fertile loess soils, and once all these grounds were occupied, fighting started

it also seems this was the end of the expansion of G2a

Lengyel - Rössen - TRB seem to have depended less on crops and more on domesticated animals and dairy products and more I and J haplogroups were involved

That makes sense. It might also have been caused by degradation of the soil. All of this would tie in with the series of population crashed documented in central Europe in a recent paper.

I just wonder if any of it could have been caused by attacks of hunter-gatherers? Or have I seen too many westerns? :)

Twilight
20-08-15, 22:28
That makes sense. It might also have been caused by degradation of the soil. All of this would tie in with the series of population crashed documented in central Europe in a recent paper.

I just wonder if any of it could have been caused by attacks of hunter-gatherers? Or have I seen too many westerns? :)

It's quite possible that Hunter/Gatherers went to war as well as farmers; chimpanzees have been known to declare war against other Chimp clans.

Here are a couple of links about this:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/09/140917131816.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/22/science/22chimp.html
http://news.sciencemag.org/plants-animals/2014/09/why-do-chimps-kill-each-other
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a7XuXi3mqYM

If our closet cousin in the animal kingdom fought skirmishes with each other, there is no reason why the Hunter/Gatherers could've not fought or allied with early farmers.

However finding a article about a Hunter/Gatherer with a spear Mark or possibly a deadly ax wound is yet to be seen.

Angela
20-08-15, 23:27
It's quite possible that Hunter/Gatherers went to war as well as farmers; chimpanzees have been known to declare war against other Chimp clans.

Here are a couple of links about this:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/09/140917131816.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/22/science/22chimp.html
http://news.sciencemag.org/plants-animals/2014/09/why-do-chimps-kill-each-other
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a7XuXi3mqYM

If our closet cousin in the animal kingdom fought skirmishes with each other, there is no reason why the Hunter/Gatherers could've not fought or allied with early farmers.

However finding a article about a Hunter/Gatherer with a spear Mark or possibly a deadly ax wound is yet to be seen.

Very interesting and informative articles. Anyone who wants to know about the human "Id" should read some of them or watch a video of chimp behavior.

Everything I know of human history and biology indicates to me that violence is sort of hard-wired in man.

There is indeed evidence of violence in hunter gatherers; it's just, in my opinion, that the research on the Kung is what has gotten a lot of "play" in the media and even in academia itself, possibly because it fits the preferred meme about hunter-gatherers as types of "The Noble Savage".

There is an interesting book that came out this year called "Troubled Times: Violence and Warfare in the Past" which examines a lot of these issues.

One of the chapters is on what the author, David Traynor, calls the "Massacre at Ofnet". Ofnet is a Mesolithic site dated to five hundred years before these Neolithic sites but in the same general part of the world. The statistics on who was killed at Ofnet compared to the Neolithic site at Talheim are interesting. There's also a comparison to a New World hunter gatherer group in California.
https://books.google.com/books?id=sWJ9AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA207&dq=Ofnet-Mesolithic+massacre&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAGoVChMI-63h8sO4xwIVyTY-Ch2PIgnF#v=onepage&q=Ofnet-Mesolithic%20massacre&f=false

I think climate change and the competition for resources is a big factor in all of this, although competition for status and women played a part as well. We can see it in the "counting coup" practice in some North American Indian tribes. Sometimes these practices became ritualized and "spiritualized".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counting_coup

Other chapters in the book look at the issue in terms of other sites and cultures around the world.

arvistro
20-08-15, 23:56
And here some American farmer folk for comparison:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec

and here some Near Eastern folk:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyria#/media/File:Flaying_of_rebels.jpg

Angela
21-08-15, 00:51
And here some American farmer folk for comparison:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec

and here some Near Eastern folk:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyria#/media/File:Flaying_of_rebels.jpg

Has this somehow become, unbeknownst to me, a contest as to whether hunter-gatherers or farmers (who, of course, were hunter-gatherers before they became farmers) were more bloodthirsty? Seriously? Or is it that you think "Europeans", by which I suppose you would mean anyone who lived north of the Alps in the Mesolithic, are less blood thirsty than "Middle Easterners? Again, are you serious? Have you read nothing about the Nazi era? Flaying was popular then, too. One Nazi had lampshades made from human skin. And that wasn't 7,000 years ago...it was 70 years ago. Not that I would ever engage in some sort of analysis where we measure the amount of savagery which people mete out to other people by "ethnic group" or historical period with an aim to degrade other groups and elevate our own.

Perhaps, however, also unbeknownst to me, you're one of those internet anthrofora types who approach all academic issues relating to pre-history solely from an ethnic or racist angle?

How disappointing, Arvistro.

bicicleur
21-08-15, 10:01
the oldest known battle field :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cemetery_117

these were fishers and gatherers in the marshes in the flooded areas along the Nile, who were densely populated
there was also some incipient agriculture - something similar to the Natufians
climate change made the floodings decrease, it reduced their habitat, allthough it made the Sahara become more lush
so there were new opportunities elsewhere, but these tribes choose to fight each other for what was left along the Nile

by the way, IMO this is the place from where E1b1b1 expanded

Angela
21-08-15, 18:11
the oldest known battle field :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cemetery_117

these were fishers and gatherers in the marshes in the flooded areas along the Nile, who were densely populated
there was also some incipient agriculture - something similar to the Natufians
climate change made the floodings decrease, it reduced their habitat, allthough it made the Sahara become more lush
so there were new opportunities elsewhere, but these tribes choose to fight each other for what was left along the Nile

by the way, IMO this is the place from where E1b1b1 expanded

And your point is, even if that were someday proved to be true?

Do you really want to get into a debate with me about the amount of murder and mayhem unleashed on the world by men carrying R1a, R1b, and I1 compared to men carrying other clades? You seriously think such men are somehow less barbarous than others?

Spare yourself and the rest of us as well. At best, it would be a draw.

arvistro
21-08-15, 22:44
Has this somehow become, unbeknownst to me, a contest as to whether hunter-gatherers or farmers (who, of course, were hunter-gatherers before they became farmers) were more bloodthirsty? Seriously? Or is it that you think "Europeans", by which I suppose you would mean anyone who lived north of the Alps in the Mesolithic, are less blood thirsty than "Middle Easterners? Again, are you serious? Have you read nothing about the Nazi era? Flaying was popular then, too. One Nazi had lampshades made from human skin. And that wasn't 7,000 years ago...it was 70 years ago. Not that I would ever engage in some sort of analysis where we measure the amount of savagery which people mete out to other people by "ethnic group" or historical period with an aim to degrade other groups and elevate our own.

Perhaps, however, also unbeknownst to me, you're one of those internet anthrofora types who approach all academic issues relating to pre-history solely from an ethnic or racist angle?

How disappointing, Arvistro.
No need to exaggerate, Angela. You shared info on some aggressive hunting communities and I reminded of farming Aztecs and Assyrians. Which for some reason opened some emotional vulcano for you.

You are not seriously thinking that violence is genetic thing that suits only folk whose WHG portion exceeds the allowable Barcin ratio....

Twilight
21-08-15, 23:15
No need to exaggerate, Angela. You shared info on some aggressive hunting communities and I reminded of farming Aztecs and Assyrians. Which for some reason opened some emotional vulcano for you.

You are not seriously thinking that violence is genetic thing that suits only folk whose WHG portion exceeds the allowable Barcin ratio....

If it's okay with you, can we take this to the pms between us? I sense a cultural clash between Europe and America, I understand you mean well however I feel this could get ugly if left in public.


Very interesting and informative articles. Anyone who wants to know about the human "Id" should read some of them or watch a video of chimp behavior.

Everything I know of human history and biology indicates to me that violence is sort of hard-wired in man.

There is indeed evidence of violence in hunter gatherers; it's just, in my opinion, that the research on the Kung is what has gotten a lot of "play" in the media and even in academia itself, possibly because it fits the preferred meme about hunter-gatherers as types of "The Noble Savage".

There is an interesting book that came out this year called "Troubled Times: Violence and Warfare in the Past" which examines a lot of these issues.

One of the chapters is on what the author, David Traynor, calls the "Massacre at Ofnet". Ofnet is a Mesolithic site dated to five hundred years before these Neolithic sites but in the same general part of the world. The statistics on who was killed at Ofnet compared to the Neolithic site at Talheim are interesting. There's also a comparison to a New World hunter gatherer group in California.
https://books.google.com/books?id=sWJ9AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA207&dq=Ofnet-Mesolithic+massacre&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAGoVChMI-63h8sO4xwIVyTY-Ch2PIgnF#v=onepage&q=Ofnet-Mesolithic%20massacre&f=false

I think climate change and the competition for resources is a big factor in all of this, although competition for status and women played a part as well. We can see it in the "counting coup" practice in some North American Indian tribes. Sometimes these practices became ritualized and "spiritualized".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counting_coup

Other chapters in the book look at the issue in terms of other sites and cultures around the world.

Why thank you, I'll be sure to check the books out at my local library :)

Angela
22-08-15, 00:53
No need to exaggerate, Angela. You shared info on some aggressive hunting communities and I reminded of farming Aztecs and Assyrians. Which for some reason opened some emotional vulcano for you.

You are not seriously thinking that violence is genetic thing that suits only folk whose WHG portion exceeds the allowable Barcin ratio....

Perhaps you should re-read my post more carefully. This is what I said:"Everything I know of human history and biology indicates to me that violence is sort of hard-wired in man." ("Man" in this context was meant as a stand in for the word "mankind" or "humanity").

That comment and the reference to the Ofnet Mesolithic site was in response to a post by Twilight in which he said that although there was doubtless violence among Mesolithic hunter-gatherers as well as among farmers, " finding a article about a Hunter/Gatherer with a spear Mark or possibly a deadly ax wound is yet to be seen."

Since I had coincidentally just been browsing through some of the material in the google version of that text on violence in human history, and had read about the Ofnet Mesolithic site, I brought it to his and everyone else's attention.

I don't see how I could have been much clearer.

Regardless, I'll repeat: I don't think any ancient group of humans was inherently or genetically more predisposed to violence than others; at least, I'm not aware of any such evidence. It seems to me, as I said, to be something that is "hard-wired" in human beings, although if I am to be totally honest I have found that it is far more a component of the "psyche" and behavior of the male of the species than of females, as is sexual abuse of minors for that matter.

That isn't to say that external factors might not favor the emergence of violence, such as the disappearance of resources through climate change and other such factors. Also, the better the technology, the more complex and the more organized the culture, the higher the level of the destruction. Even absent those things however, we know that low levels of violence of one group upon another are very common in many primitive cultures, the American Indians being a prime example.

If I misjudged your motivation for posting your examples, I apologize. Blame it on the fact that I made the mistake of going to Eurogenes and reading some posts there.

Kardu
22-08-15, 15:49
Has this somehow become, unbeknownst to me, a contest as to whether hunter-gatherers or farmers (who, of course, were hunter-gatherers before they became farmers) were more bloodthirsty? Seriously? Or is it that you think "Europeans", by which I suppose you would mean anyone who lived north of the Alps in the Mesolithic, are less blood thirsty than "Middle Easterners? Again, are you serious? Have you read nothing about the Nazi era? Flaying was popular then, too. One Nazi had lampshades made from human skin. And that wasn't 7,000 years ago...it was 70 years ago. Not that I would ever engage in some sort of analysis where we measure the amount of savagery which people mete out to other people by "ethnic group" or historical period with an aim to degrade other groups and elevate our own.

Perhaps, however, also unbeknownst to me, you're one of those internet anthrofora types who approach all academic issues relating to pre-history solely from an ethnic or racist angle?

How disappointing, Arvistro.

And let's not forget tens of millions murdered and tortured by leftists in the USSR, China etc.

bicicleur
22-08-15, 16:02
And your point is, even if that were someday proved to be true?

Do you really want to get into a debate with me about the amount of murder and mayhem unleashed on the world by men carrying R1a, R1b, and I1 compared to men carrying other clades? You seriously think such men are somehow less barbarous than others?

Spare yourself and the rest of us as well. At best, it would be a draw.

there is no point at all

but it seems you are looking for one

Angela
23-08-15, 19:56
Apropos of our discussions: Aztec Skull Rack Unearthed in Mexico

http://www.archaeology.org/news/3626-140821-mexico-aztec-skull-rack-unearthed