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Angela
19-08-15, 19:47
See:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/14/world/middleeast/isis-enshrines-a-theology-of-rape.html?_r=0

Fair warning: it's incredibly disturbing. Has humanity really evolved at all?

bicicleur
20-08-15, 20:13
I'm sure they'll find the right passages in their wholy book to justifie this.
You can get away with anything with that wholy book. You can bend it anyway you want.

Angela
21-08-15, 15:42
I'm sure they'll find the right passages in their wholy book to justifie this.
You can get away with anything with that wholy book. You can bend it anyway you want.

Did you feel the same kind of moral outrage when Eastern Orthodox Christian Serbs were doing the same things to Bosnian Muslim women? (and others?)

Just wondering.

Twilight
21-08-15, 15:56
I'm getting a conflicting view, apparently rape is a capital crime
http://islam.about.com/od/crime/f/rape.htm

Angela
21-08-15, 18:03
I'm getting a conflicting view, apparently rape is a capital crime
http://islam.about.com/od/crime/f/rape.htm

The story in the OP is about what is happening to Yazidi women and girls.From my limited understanding there is a distinction made between "people of the Book", or Jews and Christians, and polytheists like the Yazidis. The former supposedly have some limited protection to the extent that they are occasionally allowed to buy their freedom, while the latter have no protections at all. In practice I don't think there is always a difference. There are news reports that the American woman captive who was killed in a raid was repeatedly raped by Baghdadi, the head of ISIS.

These practices are as old as time. They can be found enshrined in the holy texts of Europe, as well.



"

Deuteronomy 21:10-14: "When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her [i.e. rape her or engage in consensual sex], and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl1.htm


In the west, Christianity explicitly over-rides Deuteronomy, but even Orthodox Judaism, through rabbinical interpretation, disallows this kind of behavior. Within Islam, there is no central theological authority from what I can make out. Perhaps some groups in some countries continue to preach that this is permissible behavior. After all, it's known that an SSA slave trade, mainly in women, still exists. Or, perhaps, the ISIS people are merely reviving it. I don't know and I don't see that it much matters. Given the proclivities of certain men it seems to be working as an effective recruiting strategy. It can't be known only to people who have been involved in criminal jurisprudence that there is a huge international market for sex with underage girls, in particular. Just look at the amount of sex tourism there is in countries like Thailand. Of course, those men prefer to buy it than fight for it.

Ike
22-08-15, 04:47
Did you feel the same kind of moral outrage when Eastern Orthodox Christian Serbs were doing the same things to Bosnian Muslim women? (and others?)

Just wondering.

OMG you still live in that CIA world of lies :)

bicicleur
22-08-15, 10:20
Did you feel the same kind of moral outrage when Eastern Orthodox Christian Serbs were doing the same things to Bosnian Muslim women? (and others?)

Just wondering.

ritual rape? slavery? public executions which the whole community is forced to watch? the ambition to conquer and rule all over the world?

I think there is a different dimension here.

terrible things happened in former Yugoslavia, but it was not quite what is happening now
it is very naïve to reduce worldwide muslim fundamentalism to just something similar to these local conflicts

bicicleur
22-08-15, 10:22
Did you feel the same kind of moral outrage when Eastern Orthodox Christian Serbs were doing the same things to Bosnian Muslim women? (and others?)

Just wondering.

I felt ashamed about Europe, who didn't do anything
American troops had to come in to solve a problem inside Europe

bicicleur
22-08-15, 10:30
The story in the OP is about what is happening to Yazidi women and girls.From my limited understanding there is a distinction made between "people of the Book", or Jews and Christians, and polytheists like the Yazidis. The former supposedly have some limited protection to the extent that they are occasionally allowed to buy their freedom, while the latter have no protections at all. In practice I don't think there is always a difference. There are news reports that the American woman captive who was killed in a raid was repeatedly raped by Baghdadi, the head of ISIS.

These practices are as old as time. They can be found enshrined in the holy texts of Europe, as well.



"
Deuteronomy 21:10-14: "When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her [i.e. rape her or engage in consensual sex], and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl1.htm


In the west, Christianity explicitly over-rides Deuteronomy, but even Orthodox Judaism, through rabbinical interpretation, disallows this kind of behavior. Within Islam, there is no central theological authority from what I can make out. Perhaps some groups in some countries continue to preach that this is permissible behavior. After all, it's known that an SSA slave trade, mainly in women, still exists. Or, perhaps, the ISIS people are merely reviving it. I don't know and I don't see that it much matters. Given the proclivities of certain men it seems to be working as an effective recruiting strategy. It can't be known only to people who have been involved in criminal jurisprudence that there is a huge international market for sex with underage girls, in particular. Just look at the amount of sex tourism there is in countries like Thailand. Of course, those men prefer to buy it than fight for it.






it' what I told above

You can get away with anything with that wholy book. You can bend it anyway you want.

Vallicanus
22-08-15, 15:39
I felt ashamed about Europe, who didn't do anything
American troops had to come in to solve a problem inside Europe

Without the Americans we would all be under Russian rule.

Mind you, Islamists would eat Europe alive if there were no American bases in Europe.

The people of the older EU countries in particular don't have the stomach for struggle any more and their politicians are weak.

Take your pick, Putin or Isis.

Ike
22-08-15, 15:56
Without the Americans we would all be under Russian rule.

Mind you, Islamists would eat Europe alive if there were no American bases in Europe.

The people of the older EU countries in particular don't have the stomach for struggle any more and their politicians are weak.

Take your pick, Putin or Isis.

Exactly the opposite. Americans are making this whole mess, and their whole idea is to insert sleeper cells and destabilize Europe.

bicicleur
22-08-15, 16:06
Exactly the opposite. Americans are making this whole mess, and their whole idea is to insert sleeper cells and destabilize Europe.

so you tell us the war in former Yugoslavia was caused by the Americans

would you care to elaborate that, because it seems i'm missing something

Twilight
22-08-15, 17:47
Exactly the opposite. Americans are making this whole mess, and their whole idea is to insert sleeper cells and destabilize Europe.


so you tell us the war in former Yugoslavia was caused by the Americans

would you care to elaborate that, because it seems i'm missing something

Yeah, that would be interesting. As an American myself, I never seen anything on the news about the government destabilizing Europe.
Isis loves to cut off our heads and infiltrate our cyber security. We are still a little shaken by 9/11 and the Boston Massacure.

If there any way for us Americans to make the situation better?

LeBrok
22-08-15, 18:18
so you tell us the war in former Yugoslavia was caused by the Americans

would you care to elaborate that, because it seems i'm missing something

He's a little bitter after Americans took his Bosnian slave girl away.

Angela
22-08-15, 18:44
I felt ashamed about Europe, who didn't do anything
American troops had to come in to solve a problem inside Europe

It was indeed another sad episode in European history.

Ike
22-08-15, 18:45
so you tell us the war in former Yugoslavia was caused by the Americans

would you care to elaborate that, because it seems i'm missing something

Well, I could go on for months, but I'm still not sure that you're not joking here that you didn't know that? Did you read any books on the subject like:

http://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Agenda-U-S-Takeover-Yugoslavia/dp/0965691675
http://www.amazon.com/Germanys-Conquest-Balkans-Gerald-Flurry-ebook/dp/B00F6DAZLA

or you had just watched western TV channels? Your TV lies you so much it's beyond disgusting. Just considering the rape cases:

You have conclusionfor Bosnia at the end of the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZfgtfPVFhU


This one is about Kosovo. That bastard Robin Cook simply lied.
http://de-construct.net/e-zine/?p=167

"Yesterday, Human Rights Watch researcher, Fred Abrahams, was forced to admit in the Hague UK’s former foreign minister Robin Cook (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4127654.stm) also lied when he claimed Serbian forces ran the “rape camp” in Kosovo’s Djakovica, in 1999. Abrahams testified that he was in Kosovo and Metohija in 1998 and 1999, collecting documentation and evidence about human rights violations. He thoroughly investigated Cook’s claims on the ground, but wasn’t able to find any proof for Cook’s accusation, nor a single “rape camp” run by Serbs."




Yeah, that would be interesting. As an American myself, I never seen anything on the news about the government destabilizing Europe.
Isis loves to cut off our heads and infiltrate our cyber security. We are still a little shaken by 9/11 and the Boston Massacure.

If there any way for us Americans to make the situation better?

You can still find decent people on the west, who are not willing to compromise their integrity for the bag of dollars. For example Roland Keith, a Canadian official who served as a monitor for the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe’s Observer mission in Kosovo and Metohija, says: http://www.iacenter.org/warcrime/rkeith.htm

1. "This was the penultimate western move to force Yugoslavian compliance to accept the Rambouillet-Paris ultimatum and to surrender its sovereignty."

That was the whole point of Rambouillet plan. If was not about Albanians, human right or anything else logical. It was a plan that meant territorial surrender of SR Yugoslavia. That was before the war. Because Yugoslav officials didn't sign it, NATO begun military offensive to try to enforce it. In the end it settled somewhere in between. Yugoslavia was not occupied by NATO troops, but part of the territory (Kosovo) was given under their control.

What was that about? Just like you would propose a document of surrender to Australia tomorrow, or Argentina. Do you even understand what happened there? As Kissinger said:

7398

2. Who did the ethnic cleansing?

So, with no desire for further diplomacy, NATO had its war, and only after seventy-eight days of air bombardment was it suspended. Yugoslav forces withdrew from Kosovo, and NATO ground forces occupied the province, establishing a UN- administered protectorate. With the reversal of power, the 800,000 Kosovar refugees, created by the war, returned, supporting the KLA's policy of reverse intimidation and atrocities. This all but ethnically cleansed the majority of the 270,000 Kosovo Serbs and other minorities from the province.

3. etc...


What can you Americans do? Nothing I think so. Destruction of Yugoslavia was just a small step in you Drang Nach Osten policy, and until you admit yourself you're doing it, you can't wake up from the dream.



He's a little bitter after Americans took his Bosnian slave girl away.

And you dude are the most evil person I've ever met. You shoot someone, lie about it, and smile in his face while he's down. Disgusting character...

Angela
22-08-15, 19:11
It's all fantasy. These are the facts.

Report from the United Nations War Crimes Tribunal:
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=43752#.VdhkzflvBT8

UN Commission Charges Serbs with Genocide:
http://www.wrmea.org/1994-july-august/war-crimes-u.n.-commission-charges-serbs-with-genocide-and-crimes-against-humanity.html

BBC: How Did Rape Become a Weapon of War:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4078677.stm
The article refers to reports by Amnesty International and Medicins Sans Frontiere.

"Gita Sahgal, of Amnesty International, told the BBC News website it was a mistake to think such assaults were primarily about the age-old "spoils of war", or sexual gratification. Rape is often used in ethnic conflicts as a way for attackers to perpetuate their social control and redraw ethnic boundaries, she said. "Women are seen as the reproducers and carers of the community," she said.







"Therefore if one group wants to control another they often do it by impregnating women of the other community because they see it as a way of destroying the opposing community."

A report by Medecins Sans Frontieres says it first came across rape as a weapon in the 1990s.

"In Bosnia systematic rape was used as part of the strategy of ethnic cleansing," it said.
"Women were raped so they could give birth to a Serbian baby."


The report refers to other instances during the India/Pakistan conflict, in Darfur, and in Latin America.

The Independent's Robert Fisk: "The rapes went on day and night".
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/bosnia-war-crimes-the-rapes-went-on-day-and-night-robert-fisk-in-mostar-gathers-detailed-evidence-of-the-systematic-sexual-assaults-on-muslim-women-by-serbian-white-eagle-gunmen-1471656.html

Muslim Women in the Bosnian Crucible:
http://www.swaneehunt.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/chapter-muslim-women-bosnian-crucible.pdf

You need a strong stomach for this one: Bosnian Death Camps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF-JfhMZJ_Y

Refugees were accepted in the U.S. as well, and depositions were taken to be used by the UN tribunals. Anyone who looked into the eyes and souls of these poor women and girls could see the scars carved by evil.

To deny it happened just adds blasphemy upon blasphemy.

If you look at the source of all those videos made by the deniers you'll see that they're all Serb created. So, even if you ignore the testimony of the soldiers sent in to restore order and stop the genocide, take your choice, do you believe Amnesty, Medicins Sans Frontiere, independent journalists, the UN, countless aid workers from dozens of countries around the world, or men who are part of a community that perpetuated these atrocities? I wonder how many Serbian men from that area age 42 or so and over has clean hands?

The problem for the deniers and apologists is that they left too many victims alive and there were too many witnesses, and this all happened only twenty five years ago. You can speak to the victims, as I have. I guarantee you that any decent person would have trouble sleeping at night after talking to just one of them.

Ike
22-08-15, 19:13
The problem for the deniers and apologists is that they left too many victims alive and there were too many witnesses, and this all happened only twenty five years ago. You can speak to the victims, as I have. I guarantee you that any decent person would have trouble sleeping at night after talking to just one of them.

And I have a trouble sleeping while knowing there are so many programmed persons like you in the world.

Twilight
22-08-15, 20:25
Q
And I have a trouble sleeping while knowing there are so many programmed persons like you in the world.

I have a suspicious feeling that both Governments/news broadcasts are hiding something in one form or another.

For example, we were never taught in American school that we were massacuring El Salvadorians and yet we got the newly sainted Oscar Romero; martyred by an American Death squad. We were only taught that some Latin American were communists, would you agree Angela?
Perhaps there is a similar phenomenon going on in Europe?

Like my 12th grade history teacher used to say, "history books tend to sugarcoat the ugly sides of history.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/23/americas/el-salvador-archbishop-oscar-romero-beatification/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%93scar_Romero

If you ask me, it ultimately comes down too the question, How can we ferret out the truth?

bicicleur
23-08-15, 08:35
Well, I could go on for months, but I'm still not sure that you're not joking here that you didn't know that? Did you read any books on the subject like:

http://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Agenda-U-S-Takeover-Yugoslavia/dp/0965691675
http://www.amazon.com/Germanys-Conquest-Balkans-Gerald-Flurry-ebook/dp/B00F6DAZLA

or you had just watched western TV channels? Your TV lies you so much it's beyond disgusting. Just considering the rape cases:

You have conclusionfor Bosnia at the end of the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZfgtfPVFhU


This one is about Kosovo. That bastard Robin Cook simply lied.
http://de-construct.net/e-zine/?p=167

"Yesterday, Human Rights Watch researcher, Fred Abrahams, was forced to admit in the Hague UK’s former foreign minister Robin Cook (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4127654.stm) also lied when he claimed Serbian forces ran the “rape camp” in Kosovo’s Djakovica, in 1999. Abrahams testified that he was in Kosovo and Metohija in 1998 and 1999, collecting documentation and evidence about human rights violations. He thoroughly investigated Cook’s claims on the ground, but wasn’t able to find any proof for Cook’s accusation, nor a single “rape camp” run by Serbs."





You can still find decent people on the west, who are not willing to compromise their integrity for the bag of dollars. For example Roland Keith, a Canadian official who served as a monitor for the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe’s Observer mission in Kosovo and Metohija, says: http://www.iacenter.org/warcrime/rkeith.htm

1. "This was the penultimate western move to force Yugoslavian compliance to accept the Rambouillet-Paris ultimatum and to surrender its sovereignty."

That was the whole point of Rambouillet plan. If was not about Albanians, human right or anything else logical. It was a plan that meant territorial surrender of SR Yugoslavia. That was before the war. Because Yugoslav officials didn't sign it, NATO begun military offensive to try to enforce it. In the end it settled somewhere in between. Yugoslavia was not occupied by NATO troops, but part of the territory (Kosovo) was given under their control.

What was that about? Just like you would propose a document of surrender to Australia tomorrow, or Argentina. Do you even understand what happened there? As Kissinger said:

7398

2. Who did the ethnic cleansing?

So, with no desire for further diplomacy, NATO had its war, and only after seventy-eight days of air bombardment was it suspended. Yugoslav forces withdrew from Kosovo, and NATO ground forces occupied the province, establishing a UN- administered protectorate. With the reversal of power, the 800,000 Kosovar refugees, created by the war, returned, supporting the KLA's policy of reverse intimidation and atrocities. This all but ethnically cleansed the majority of the 270,000 Kosovo Serbs and other minorities from the province.

3. etc...


What can you Americans do? Nothing I think so. Destruction of Yugoslavia was just a small step in you Drang Nach Osten policy, and until you admit yourself you're doing it, you can't wake up from the dream.




what can I say as an outsider?

it was a big mess
there ware athrocities from one side and retalliations from the other side, and then there were all kinds of nationalist fractions fuelling more hatred
yes the Americans left a big mess, but they didn't create it
if they hadn't come in it would have gotten much worse still
cleaning up the whole mess was simply impossible

if I understand well, the situation situation was very complicated before WW I and WW II, mainly due to the Ottomans
yet under Tito there seems to have been pacification

how did that work?

Twilight
23-08-15, 08:46
You can still find decent people on the west, who are not willing to compromise their integrity for the bag of dollars. For example Roland Keith, a Canadian official who served as a monitor for the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe’s Observer mission in Kosovo and Metohija, says: http://www.iacenter.org/warcrime/rkeith.htm

1. "This was the penultimate western move to force Yugoslavian compliance to accept the Rambouillet-Paris ultimatum and to surrender its sovereignty."

That was the whole point of Rambouillet plan. If was not about Albanians, human right or anything else logical. It was a plan that meant territorial surrender of SR Yugoslavia. That was before the war. Because Yugoslav officials didn't sign it, NATO begun military offensive to try to enforce it. In the end it settled somewhere in between. Yugoslavia was not occupied by NATO troops, but part of the territory (Kosovo) was given under their control.

What was that about? Just like you would propose a document of surrender to Australia tomorrow, or Argentina. Do you even understand what happened there? As Kissinger said:

7398
I'm really sorry about this but we were never taught about the Rambouillet. I'm going to look this up but I can assure you this was not taught in school; must have been suger coated out


2. Who did the ethnic cleansing?

So, with no desire for further diplomacy, NATO had its war, and only after seventy-eight days of air bombardment was it suspended. Yugoslav forces withdrew from Kosovo, and NATO ground forces occupied the province, establishing a UN- administered protectorate. With the reversal of power, the 800,000 Kosovar refugees, created by the war, returned, supporting the KLA's policy of reverse intimidation and atrocities. This all but ethnically cleansed the majority of the 270,000 Kosovo Serbs and other minorities from the province.



3. etc...


What can you Americans do? Nothing I think so. Destruction of Yugoslavia was just a small step in you Drang Nach Osten policy, and until you admit yourself you're doing it, you can't wake up from the dream.




And you dude are the most evil person I've ever met. You shoot someone, lie about it, and smile in his face while he's down. Disgusting character...

I have no words for this, let's not get so hasty about this O_o I can not deny that some Americans are doing it but I'd be lying if I said the majority are to blame. Again, I'm really sorry for your losses :(.

Anyways, I apologize if this is off subject. What are your thoughts about Isis?

bicicleur
23-08-15, 11:24
you should remember America is a democracy

there are a lot of stupid or ingorant people in the world, they are the majority, even in a democracy

the peculiar thing in a democracy is, the stupid and ignorant people are in power there, i.e. their leader (president or prime minister) gets elected by them

in order to justify their actions abroad, the American government has to bring a simple black and white story with not to many shades

in the Yugoslav conflict with many atrocities from all sides, the Serbians ended up being the best equiped and organised

that's why for the Americans and their allies the Serbians where the bad guys and the Bosnians were the good guys

anyway they stopped the atrocities in the end and looking for complots to destabilise Europe is farfetched

because they fail to see the stories from all sides, Europeans and Americans are very naïve

they believe their democracy is the best and only system in the world, and it should work all over the world

Arab spring failed to work, it shows it's better to let some corrupt and cruel Khadafi, Sadam Houssain and Assad stay in power as long as there is no valid alternative to all kinds of fundamentalistic fanatics,
even the Afghans were better of when they were occupied by the Sovjets

Vallicanus
23-08-15, 12:52
Yeah, that would be interesting. As an American myself, I never seen anything on the news about the government destabilizing Europe.
Isis loves to cut off our heads and infiltrate our cyber security. We are still a little shaken by 9/11 and the Boston Massacure.

If there any way for us Americans to make the situation better?

Yes, please don't abandon the EU to its own laughable devices because apart from small British and French special forces it is as soft as a marshmallow.:laughing:

epoch
23-08-15, 12:54
The problem is not like Yugoslavia, because what ISIS does is reinstating sexual slavery that was abolished in the Arab muslim world only in the 20th century. KSA abolished slavery offically in 1963. Some say slave markets continued to exist until early seventies. These salve markets, whenever abolished, sold African black women and girls as slaves because it is forbidden for muslims to hold muslim slaves. In other words, this was *normal* in the islamic world.

https://books.google.nl/books?id=tIfYPppdbeYC&pg=PA452&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

also read pages 448/449

Vallicanus
23-08-15, 12:56
you should remember America is a democracy

there are a lot of stupid or ingorant people in the world, they are the majority, even in a democracy

the peculiar thing in a democracy is, the stupid and ignorant people are in power there, i.e. their leader (president or prime minister) gets elected by them

in order to justify their actions abroad, the American government has to bring a simple black and white story with not to many shades

in the Yugoslav conflict with many atrocities from all sides, the Serbians ended up being the best equiped and organised

that's why for the Americans and their allies the Serbians where the bad guys and the Bosnians were the good guys

anyway they stopped the atrocities in the end and looking for complots to destabilise Europe is farfetched

because they fail to see the stories from all sides, Europeans and Americans are very naïve

they believe their democracy is the best and only system in the world, and it should work all over the world

Arab spring failed to work, it shows it's better to let some corrupt and cruel Khadafi, Sadam Houssain and Assad stay in power as long as there is no valid alternative to all kinds of fundamentalistic fanatics,
even the Afghans were better of when they were occupied by the Sovjets


I agree that the Arab Spring has been a disaster and British strategic incompetence led to Ghadaffi's demise and a power vacuum in Libya, a conduit into Europe for African migrants thanks to Italian short-sightedness and timidity.

Ike
23-08-15, 17:27
what can I say as an outsider?

it was a big mess
there ware athrocities from one side and retalliations from the other side, and then there were all kinds of nationalist fractions fuelling more hatred
yes the Americans left a big mess, but they didn't create it
if they hadn't come in it would have gotten much worse still
cleaning up the whole mess was simply impossible

if I understand well, the situation situation was very complicated before WW I and WW II, mainly due to the Ottomans
yet under Tito there seems to have been pacification

how did that work?

I'll send you a PM on this subject. Don't want to wreck the thread totally with OT.


I'm really sorry about this but we were never taught about the Rambouillet. I'm going to look this up but I can assure you this was not taught in school; must have been suger coated out

I have no words for this, let's not get so hasty about this O_o I can not deny that some Americans are doing it but I'd be lying if I said the majority are to blame. Again, I'm really sorry for your losses :(.

Anyways, I apologize if this is off subject. What are your thoughts about Isis?

No problem. We do realize that it is not the majority. I believe that most of the Americans (>90%) are decent and hard working people who believe in democracy. They were just in delusion. Considering my losses, I thank you for your sincere feelings, and must say that I was lucky if compared to some people and their awful experiences. We can continue this subject on PM, but now lets get back on the subject.






Muslim in general have a problem, because their religion forbids them express their sexuality freely. I know that some Muslims will feel offended, but I find this idiotic (if it's true). (source (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/72_Virgins))

"Each time we sleep with a Houri we find her virgin. Besides, the penis of the Elected never softens. The erection is eternal; the sensation that you feel each time you make love is utterly delicious and out of this world and were you to experience it in this world you would faint. Each chosen one [i.e. Muslim] will marry seventy [sic] houris, besides the women he married on earth, and all will have appetizing vaginas." - Al-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fi Ulum al-Qur'an, p. 351

"A man asked the Prophet : 0 Prophet of God, will the inmates of Paradise have sexual intercourse ? He said: Anybody among them will be given sexual strength of seven, persons among you. The Prophet said : An inmate of Paradise will have five hundred hurs, four thousand unmarried women and eight thousand widowed women. Each of them will keep embracing him for the duration of his whole worldly life time. He also said: There will be markets in Paradise in which there will be no buy and sale, but there will be men and women. If any man will wish to have sexual intercourse with a woman, he will do at once. The Hurs will sing in Paradise on divine purity and praise-we are most beautiful Hurs and we are for the honoured husbands.", Al Ghazzali, "Ihya Uloom Ed-Din (The Revival of the Religious Sciences) Vol. 4", Death and Subsequent Events 430


Don't know what their idea is, but they really should have more sex here on Earth and relax a bit. I really don't understand how can someone believe for himself that he is a spiritual person just for restraining himself from sex for 50 years, with an idea to obtain an eternal orgy with young, beautiful virgins. Nothing spiritual about it, it's pure materialism and foxiness.

Angela
23-08-15, 18:38
Mass rape as part of inter-ethnic or inter-religious conflicts is a human problem. Or, more precisely, perhaps, a male problem. Stop trying to deflect it just onto Muslims. These men in the Balkans were no better than the men in ISIS today. In fact, it seems to be a recurring trope in human history. Why else do we have repeated examples where we have huge changes in the y Dna but the mtDna remains the same?

As people seem to have not read the UN reports I posted above:
http://www.wrmea.org/1994-july-august/war-crimes-u.n.-commission-charges-serbs-with-genocide-and-crimes-against-humanity.html

From the U.N. commission on war crimes:

"The report dealt with the715 camps and detention facilities about which the commission had received information, rape and other forms of sexual assaults, and details of 187 mass graves reported in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia. Of these, 143 were in Bosnia and 44 in Croatia. Thirteen of these mass graves were said to contain 500 bodies or more, and 20 had between 100 and 500 bodies each.


The commission accused the Croats of destroying the Mostar Bridge, which goes back to the Ottoman Turkish era, and the Serbs of destroying large sections of the picturesque old Croatian town of Dubrovnik for no apparent military objective. The report also charged that, in violation of international law, Bosnian Serbs deliberately targeted the civilian population of Sarajevo in the more than a year and a half the city was shelled.


Previous reports have indicated that civilians have been murdered by all sides in the three-cornered war, but that the vast majority were killed by Serbs, and the least, by far, by Muslims. The portion of the report detailing rapes indicated the same proportion of crimes. The commission estimated that up to 20,000 women may have been raped during the Bosnian war and reported it had the names of some 600 alleged rapists and information about the identities of another 900.

"Rape has been reported to have been committed by all sides to the conflict. However, the largest number of reported victims have been Bosnian Muslims, and the largest number of alleged perpetrators have been Bosnian Serbs. There are few reports of rape and sexual assault between members of the same ethnic group," the commission reported."

Yetos
23-08-15, 23:11
Without the Americans we would all be under Russian rule.

Mind you, Islamists would eat Europe alive if there were no American bases in Europe.

The people of the older EU countries in particular don't have the stomach for struggle any more and their politicians are weak.

Take your pick, Putin or Isis.

hm
could the Americans create the problem?
just asking?
by making 3,4 7,9 invasions in Islamic lands,
which in Islamic world look like as crusades
could they open the Aiolos sacks (create) modern problem?
for example,
until 90's there were only Algerians and some Arabs in France, Turks in Germanic, and Lowland countries, and Pakistanis in England,
I wonder, if after the first attack against Afganistan Taliban till the Kantafi in Libya and Now Syria,
how many immigrants arive legaly or ilegally and through wich 'gates'?
I think Bush 'family' of presidents is more responsiposible than ex Francais Deutsch UK Italian etc , even Putin's choices,
Notice that in USA today live more Muslims than in EU

Ike
24-08-15, 01:19
Mass rape as part of inter-ethnic or inter-religious conflicts is a human problem. Or, more precisely, perhaps, a male problem. Stop trying to deflect it just onto Muslims. These men in the Balkans were no better than the men in ISIS today. In fact, it seems to be a recurring trope in human history. Why else do we have repeated examples where we have huge changes in the y Dna but the mtDna remains the same?

As people seem to have not read the UN reports I posted above:
http://www.wrmea.org/1994-july-august/war-crimes-u.n.-commission-charges-serbs-with-genocide-and-crimes-against-humanity.html


That's a report from 1994, and as I've already told you all those preliminary reports from the war time proved to be pure speculations and wrong soon after NATO achieved their goals or their troops stepped in. It just didn't matter anymore, cause nobody cared for truth, just like you don't.

Do you understand that people lie? That your government also lies to you?


1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_(testimony)

In her emotional testimony, Nayirah stated that after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait she had witnessed Iraqi soldiers take babies out of incubators in a Kuwaiti hospital, take the incubators, and leave the babies to die.Her story was initially corroborated by Amnesty International and testimony from evacuees. Following the liberation of Kuwait, reporters were given access to the country. An ABC report found that "patients, including premature babies, did die, when many of Kuwait's nurses and doctors... fled" but Iraqi troops "almost certainly had not stolen hospital incubators and left hundreds of Kuwaiti babies to die." Amnesty International reacted by issuing a correction, with executive director John Healey subsequently accusing the Bush administration of "opportunistic manipulation of the international human rights movement".


2. http://www.commondreams.org/news/2014/10/15/legacy-chemical-weapons-iraq-compounds-lies-and-failures-us-invasion

New reporting by the New York Times show how the only chemical weapons found in Iraq—long-abandoned stockpiles dating back to the 1980's— don't in any way conform to the pre-invasion narrative used by the Bush administration to justify the war.

And now we have ISIS there.


3. http://www.dailycensored.com/racak-was-the-tonkin-gulf-lie-that-justified-bombing-serbia/

According to the New York Times, the “turning point” to NATO’s decision to go to war against Yugoslavia occurred on January 20, 1999 when U.S. diplomat William Walker led a group of news reporters to discover a so-called Serb massacre of some 45 Albanians in Racak, Kosovo. ... And Bo Adam of the Berliner Zeitung newspaper was told by local Albanians, that the “innocent Kosovars” at Racak were really combat deaths.

And it wasn't the first time that that creep William Walker lies and covers up mass murderers:

Ironically, Walker had no credibility with the U.S. press corps. His role in El Salvador was so notorious that CBS’s 60 Minutes ran a segment on him twice. The second time was after the principal figure Walker was protecting, Salvadoran army chief of staff Rene Emilio Ponce, turned out to have been the main culprit in the 1989 Jesuit murders.

The guy is a notorious liar. I just don't see why do you still believe him, or proven liars like him. You scare me.

Angela
24-08-15, 02:25
What I believe is the evidence of my own eyes and my own judgments about the testimony of witnesses. What I believe is the testimony of dozens and dozens of aid workers from all over the world who were there at the liberation of the camps and who tried to help the victims. I also believe in international jurisprudence as manifest in the UN War Crimes Tribunals.

What I don't believe are the self-interested statements of the perpetrators and their friends and countrymen who desperately try to hide the truth. I'll be charitable and try to think that those under 40 may not have first hand knowledge of what went on and accept these stories because to see the truth about their neighbors or perhaps even their family members would be too painful. The same thing went on in Germany. Only when a lot of that generation was dead could people look at the facts more objectively.

January, 2015...
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31053503


Srebrenica massacre verdicts upheld at war crimes tribunal

Clear enough?

I could post dozens of other recent court determinations, and videos of the survivors when they were rescued, but there's no point. Everyone knows what happened and this obfuscation by Serbs just blackens their name even more.

I have no more time to waste on the obvious.

Ike
24-08-15, 03:23
January, 2015...
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31053503


Srebrenica massacre verdicts upheld at war crimes tribunal

Clear enough?

I could post dozens of other recent court determinations, and videos of the survivors when they were rescued, but there's no point. Everyone knows what happened and this obfuscation by Serbs just blackens their name even more.

I have no more time to waste on the obvious.

Nice. Glad that you mentioned Srebrenica.

Will you ask Mr. Clinton why he did that in Srebrenica? (27:15-29:10)
https://youtu.be/FvqHWS_4AuM?t=27m15s

Why did US advised Muslims against the peace plan? (25:00 - 26:00)
https://youtu.be/RUuhSGnLvv8?t=25m

Well, watch the whole movie, and then report back.

Tomenable
24-08-15, 03:52
If there any way for us Americans to make the situation better?

Of course.

You could force them to be nice to each other by killing them before they killed each other: :wary2:

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/slayer/violentpacification.html

Heh.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rUu7YHPJO8

BTW - Americans wanted to "breed war strain out of Germans" (?!):

From New York's PM Daily newspaper, 4 January 1943:

Page 1:

http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/782d99c9a9b49b44eb4216aca21ade08.jpg

http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/782d99c9a9b49b44eb4216aca21ade08.jpg

Page 2:

http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/3d7a07e56b26f7d0e7e55d47be43f486.jpg

http://s29.postimg.org/vzlwztms5/Breed_War_Strain.png

Text of the article marked above with red frame (by E. A. Hooton) - quoted below:

============================

"Breed War Strain Out of Germans:

Professor Earnest Albert Hooton, Professor of Anthropology at Harvard University is particularly interested in man's biological development. He is the author of 'Apes, Men, and Morons', published in 1937. His approach to anthropological and social problems is always unorthodox and he likes nothing better then to throw out startling ideas for the sake of discussion they may develop. His contribution to What Are We Going to Do With the Germans? is pitched in that key.

(The following suggestions are offered by a physicial anthropologist who has spent many years in the study of race, nationality, and the relation of individual biology to behavior. However, these suggestions represent no consensus of anthropological opinion; they have not been submitted to any group and have been endorsed by no one. The author, himself, is not fully confident of the practicability of the measures outlined. He merely presents them for discussion. E. A. H.)

Basic Postulates

(1) The Behavior of a nation arises from the mass of its population and not from leaders or restricted social classes. National culture, national psychology, national ideals are at once the products of the aggregate of biological units of the population and the influence which tend to select for survival and to exaggerate those biological types of men which most readily conform to national behavioral pattens. Both cultural environment and heredity interact to produce in nations stable and persistent modes of behavior.

(2) Substantial amelioration of national behavior cannot be effected solely by external efforts to change the national culture (form of government, ideologies, religion, education, economies). Biological measures for the bettering of the physical, mental, and moral quality of individual human units must also be applied to insure permanent improvement.

(3) To break the vicious cycle of inter-action between a militaristic state and the predatory tendencies of its citizens, the former must be destroyed and the latter neutralized or bred out. Since the state is the mechanism for the operation of group aggressions, its destruction most effectually frustrates such aggressions and at the same time makes it easier to deal with the cultural and biological quality of the population by individuals.

APPLICATION TO POST-WAR GERMANY

General Objective

To destroy German nationalism and aggressive ideology while retaining and perpetuating desirable German biological and sociological capacities:

(1) Execute or imprison for life all leaders of the Nazi party; permanently exile all professional army officers.

(2) For a period of 20 years or more utilize the bulk of the present German army as rehabilitation labor units in devastated areas of the Allied Nations in Europe and elsewhere. These laborers should not be treated as prisoners of war or convicts but as paid employees (supervised and restricted as to movement from the area of their work). They might be allowed the privilege of naturalization upon evidence of good behavior. The single men should be permitted to marry only women of the country of their abode or naturalization.
The families of the men already married should remain in Germany for a period of years, but might eventually be permitted to join the fathers. The latter should not be allowed to return to Germany. The objects of this measure include reduction of the birth rate of "pure" Germans, neutralization of German aggressiveness by outbreeding, and denationalization of indoctrinated individuals.

(3) Break up the German Reich into several states (probably its original component states), permitting each, after a suitable interval of supervision and government by the Allied Nations, to choose its own form of non-Fascist government. The object of this measure is to destroy the national framework of unified German aggression.

(4) During the period of supervision and occupation of the several states by armies and civilian staffs of the Allied Nations, encourage members of these groups to intermarry with the German women and to settle there permanently. During this period encourage also the immigration and settlement in the German states of non-German nationals, especially males."

============================

So - they apparently wanted to "breed war strain out of Germans".

But did they remember also about German-Americans in all that madness ??? :wary2:

============================

Some YT videos about Serbs from the Jewish point of view:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ7oulIOdEc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9P3xmRSSbs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00qsLjYDG0Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lFWuGVE7rs

Angela
24-08-15, 05:39
@Tomenable
To post the ravings of a lunatic on the fringe, no matter his religion, is incendiary, and particularly so when it feeds into the eternal obsession of certain European countries with blaming everything on the Jews instead of on themselves.

Any further such postings will result in infractions.

As to this discussion about the Bosnian conflict...

What Clinton did or did not do, or any other nation did or did not do, is IRRELEVANT to the fact that the Serbs built DEATH CAMPS where they tortured and executed thousands, and they engaged in a program of MASS RAPE. None of these deflections change those facts.

Every man who participated in those atrocities should have been tried in a court of law, and if proven guilty should have been executed.

The fact that everything possible has been done to shield those men and to engage in a cover up is a moral obscenity.

That doesn't mean that I believe there is any inherent evil in Serbs, or in any ethnic group for that matter. Such atrocities have been committed in many countries.

This is supposed to be a site where, among other things, educated people can analyze history and pre-history, not a site for the defaming of other nations or ethnic groups. Nor should it be a haven for genocide deniers, whether we're talking about the Holocaust or what happened to the Bosniaks. So, be advised.

The topic of this thread is the use of mass rape as a weapon of war and ethnic change, and the atrocities by ISIS as an example of that strategy. Get back to it. In discussing the matter, be advised, however, that I won't allow it to degenerate into a wholesale bashing of all Muslims.

This is not a hate site. Stop trying to turn it into one or there will be consequences.

bicicleur
24-08-15, 09:21
What I believe is the evidence of my own eyes and my own judgments about the testimony of witnesses. What I believe is the testimony of dozens and dozens of aid workers from all over the world who were there at the liberation of the camps and who tried to help the victims. I also believe in international jurisprudence as manifest in the UN War Crimes Tribunals.


why then was there never a trial on the bombing of Nagasikya and Hiroshima for that matter?
or on the bombing of Dresden?

vae victis

Tomenable
24-08-15, 11:45
@Tomenable
To post the ravings of a lunatic on the fringe, no matter his religion, is incendiary

He is a lunatic (I agree), but he is pretty much right that in WW2 Bosniaks, Albanians and Croats collaborated with Germans.

Also a lot of Serbs were indeed murdered in WW2.

SS "Skanderberg" was an Albanian SS division, there were two Croatian SS divisions and a Bosnian Muslim "Handzar" SS division.

There were, however, no any Serbian SS divisions.

BTW - Israel has been dealing with Muslim Arabs using similar methods as Serbia was using with Bosniaks and with Albanians.

Tomenable
24-08-15, 12:40
See:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/14/world/middleeast/isis-enshrines-a-theology-of-rape.html?_r=0

Fair warning: it's incredibly disturbing. Has humanity really evolved at all?

^ So they are raping last remnants of Non-Muslims as well as Non-Sunni Muslims in those lands:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_To-cV94Bo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_To-cV94Bo

bicicleur
24-08-15, 16:56
relentless is the correct word

in the 1400 yo history of Islam, dynasties that became tolerant towards 'non-believers' were allways overthrown by dynasties that called for Jihad

the Omajade dynasty of Moorish Muslims in Spain are allways taken as the prime example of Muslim enlightenment and tolerance
yet they were overthrown by the fundamentalist Muslim Almohavide dynasty in the 11th century, long before the reconquista by the Spanish Christians

today they are indoctrinating the next generation of Muslims into Jihad

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrassas_in_Pakistan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4C3EY6zJ8w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sltjEC1WmqU

these radical instutions were even supported by America during Sovjet times
and today they are still supported by American allies like Saudi-Arabia

this is were the ideas and philosophie of ISIS comes from

Angela
24-08-15, 17:25
^ So they are raping last remnants of Non-Muslims as well as Non-Sunni Muslims in those lands:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_To-cV94Bo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_To-cV94Bo

Where do you find these nut jobs? A physics teacher is now an expert on the history of the Islamic conquests and Islam itself? You are aware that you are posting people from the lunatic fringe, people who most emphatically DO NOT represent the thinking of normal people in the west, are you not? Regardless, why would you think this kind of analysis is productive? You think it gets us somewhere to go back into history and try to prove that the Crusaders weren't as bad as the Muslims? This is the way forward, the way to change the situation and restore human rights to the people of the Middle East, and change the desire of groups like ISIS to attack and harm the west?

That's the kind of thinking that consumes the people of the Balkans and has made it a hell on earth for so many years. I would recommend to you the stricture of the holy book of the Europeans..."Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

The Arab followers of Muhammad conquered a good part of the world and created an empire, just like the Greeks under Alexander, the Romans, the Germanic tribes, and on and on. As conquerors go, they were worse than some, and better than others. They were certainly better than the Mongols, and I think they were better than the Germanic tribes. If it turns out that in parts of Europe, at least, most of the men were butchered and most of the women were enslaved, they were better than the Indo-Europeans and many other ancient peoples. All of us have both conquerors and slaves, evil people and good people, among our ancestors. To think otherwise is a fantasy.

For anyone who has an interest in what the Muslim conquests were like, I would recommend the book, "A History of Muslim Sicily" by Leonard Chiarelli, and "The Great Arab Conquests: How the Spread of Islam Changed the World We Live In".
https://books.google.com/books/about/A_History_of_Muslim_Sicily.html?id=lebVygAACAAJ
https://books.google.com/books?id=cq6m-Q_9uhMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+Great+Arab+Conquests&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAGoVChMIkfzH-YDCxwIVwnA-Ch243QHG#v=onepage&q=The%20Great%20Arab%20Conquests&f=false


The major difference is that these conquests were intimately tied to a religion and the spread of that religion, which made the conquests easier, in my opinion, but also has created a situation where the states formed by these conquests were theocracies, with all the problems which that creates for the development of a society in western terms. As I have stated before, these countries never had a Renaissance or an Enlightenment, although some European countries have also suffered from the fact that they didn't participate fully in those movements. Added to that is the fact, as I said, that the poverty and lack of development which has marked the last couple of hundred years in these areas means that there has been no development of a more modern and tolerant theology.

There are no easy solutions for this mess, but engaging in some sort of contest about whose ancestors committed the worst atrocities is both childish and totally unproductive.

Angela
24-08-15, 17:39
He is a lunatic (I agree), but he is pretty much right that in WW2 Bosniaks, Albanians and Croats collaborated with Germans.

Also a lot of Serbs were indeed murdered in WW2.

SS "Skanderberg" was an Albanian SS division, there were two Croatian SS divisions and a Bosnian Muslim "Handzar" SS division.

There were, however, no any Serbian SS divisions.

BTW - Israel has been dealing with Muslim Arabs using similar methods as Serbia was using with Bosniaks and with Albanians.

And your point is? A lot of Frenchmen collaborated with the Nazis. You could make the argument that most of them collaborated. What after all was Vichy but a collaborationist government? What were all those Latvian and Lithuanian guards in the concentration camps doing if they weren't collaborating? Or the divisions formed from them. How about the Hungarians? That's a nice story too. Shall we go on to the Italian Fascist Brigades after the start of the civil war in Italy? I don't want to ignore my own skeletons. Or what about the Popular Front in Britain under Mosley, or the fascists in Sweden. Shall I go on?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_with_the_Axis_Powers_during_World_Wa r_II

No, there were no Serbian SS divisions, but there were Communist goon squads who committed their own atrocities. Then we have the Greek Communists and their atrocities.

How about we revive the disputes of the Spanish Civil War and try to figure out which side had more blood on their hands. Then they can start fighting all over again to get their revenge.

As for the Israelis, do I agree with their treatment of the Palestinians? No, I do not. However, to equate that with the creation of death camps and the mass rape of the whole female population is a lie and smacks to me of blatant anti-semitism, and I'll tolerate no more or it.

Tomenable
24-08-15, 18:18
Well..., I do agree with you Angela, you have convinced me.

However, I don't think that mentioning Serbs already in your 2nd post of this thread was really a good thing to do, considering that this thread is about Muslims. If we want to discuss Serbian atrocities why don't we do this in a thread about Serbs ???

My advise - in a thread about Muslim atrocities we shouldn't get outraged when people criticize Muslim atrocities. We do this not because we don't know about - say - Mongol or Germanic atrocities - but because the thread is specifically about Muslims. :wink:

There is also a difference between, say, Roman and Muslim crimes. Muslim Jihad is our present-day problem, while for example Mongol atrocities took place ~800 years ago (though according to some rumours, Ukraine has recently demanded compensation from the Republic of Mongolia for destroying Kiev in December 1240: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ede_1431905002&comments=1 :grin:).

BTW - regardless of whether Serbs killed more Bosniaks or Bosniaks killed more Serbs in the 20th century - it's a pity that peoples so similar to each other (they even speak the same language) were killing themselves due to religious differences...


As for the Israelis, do I agree with their treatment of the Palestinians? No, I do not. However, to equate that with the creation of death camps and the mass rape of the whole female population is a lie

I don't like what Palestinian terrorists are doing, but Israel is far from being saint too.

Weren't those Serbian camps in question actually "concentration camps", not death camps?

And AFAIK, Israel did also have concentration camps for Palestinian Arabs, didn't it?

Though perhaps you are right that the death toll in Israeli camps was much lower .


smacks to me of blatant anti-semitismYou know that I'm pro-Jewish and pro-Israel, actually.

But I don't treat Jews like a monolith (i.e. Jews did this, Jews did that, Jews are bad, Jews are good - I try to avoid such sweeping generalizations). Please let's also not treat Serbs like monolith. Some Serbs commited atrocities, others didn't.

Many atrocities were also commited against Serbs.

Ike
24-08-15, 20:30
What Clinton did or did not do, or any other nation did or did not do, is IRRELEVANT to the fact that the Serbs built DEATH CAMPS where they tortured and executed thousands, and they engaged in a program of MASS RAPE. None of these deflections change those facts.

It matters because Mr. Clinton organized those things.


Every man who participated in those atrocities should have been tried in a court of law, and if proven guilty should have been executed.p

Exactly, and do you know who was the first convicted for the Srebrenica massacre? Was he a Serb?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dra%C5%BEen_Erdemovi%C4%87

Do you know who was a commander of his platoon? Does Franc Kos sound Serbian to you? Not to me.
http://research-srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/2008/08/slovenian-franc-kos-srebrenica-genocide.html



The fact that everything possible has been done to shield those men and to engage in a cover up is a moral obscenity.

Exactly the opposite. This is not about cover up, but about lack of evidence. As Stella Jatras says: (source (http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/09/stella-l-jatras-the-rape-of-serbian-women))
"In that context, the accusations of mass rape – and specifically of “Serb rape camps,” which were never shown to have existed anywhere — was part of a calculated campaign of depicting Muslims-white-hats and Serbs-black-hats."

FWIW worth Stella is not Serbian, but an American who worked with U.S. Department of State, U.S. Department of Defense, NASA and the Veterans Administration.
http://www.eserbia.org/sa-history/famous-americans-in-serbian-memory/804-stella-jatras



That doesn't mean that I believe there is any inherent evil in Serbs, or in any ethnic group for that matter. Such atrocities have been committed in many countries.

This is supposed to be a site where, among other things, educated people can analyze history and pre-history, not a site for the defaming of other nations or ethnic groups. Nor should it be a haven for genocide deniers, whether we're talking about the Holocaust or what happened to the Bosniaks. So, be advised.
And that's exactly what you do. You started it in #3.

Милан М.
24-08-15, 21:02
It matters because Mr. Clinton organized those things.



Exactly, and do you know who was the first convicted for the Srebrenica massacre? Was he a Serb?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dra%C5%BEen_Erdemovi%C4%87

Do you know who was a commander of his platoon? Does Franc Kos sound Serbian to you? Not to me.
http://research-srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/2008/08/slovenian-franc-kos-srebrenica-genocide.html




Exactly the opposite. This is not about cover up, but about lack of evidence. As Stella Jatras says: (source (http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/09/stella-l-jatras-the-rape-of-serbian-women))
"In that context, the accusations of mass rape – and specifically of “Serb rape camps,” which were never shown to have existed anywhere — was part of a calculated campaign of depicting Muslims-white-hats and Serbs-black-hats."

FWIW worth Stella is not Serbian, but an American who worked with U.S. Department of State, U.S. Department of Defense, NASA and the Veterans Administration.
http://www.eserbia.org/sa-history/famous-americans-in-serbian-memory/804-stella-jatras



And that's exactly what you do. You started it in #3.
Indeed the people who did the Srebrenica massacre or the unit were all of mix origin from elsewhere,merceneries,one convinced Croat,one Slovene,Serb and so on.. the one that guarded Srebrenica were the Dutch army under UN,why did they left the place they guarded so this can happen? today not even in jail,this unit "Serbs" worked for money and someones interests like many in Yugoslavia and did many such atrocities,Srebrenica was indeed someones plan,that's why the things went the way they did,and it was the worst to happen after ww2,they all did evil things,im not defending anyone,all were just stupid and evil enough.

Angela
24-08-15, 23:16
The UN criminal tribunal has spoken, most recently in 2015. It's the same as a finding of guilty in a regular criminal court. Their guilt can no longer be disputed. To quote:

"A judge at the UN Yugoslav tribunal has upheld the convictions of five men for their role in the Srebrenica massacre.

Sentences for four of the men, high-ranking officials in the Bosnian Serb Army in 1995, were also confirmed.

They had appealed against their convictions in 2010 (http://www.icty.org/x/cases/popovic/cis/en/cis_popovic_al_en.pdf) for a range of crimes including genocide.
About 8,000 Bosnian men and boys were killed in Srebrenica in just three days in 1995 - the worst atrocity on European soil since the Holocaust.

Those life sentences were confirmed on Friday, as were the sentences of 35 years for Drago Nikolic, and 13 years for Vinko Pandurevic. The sentence of the fifth man, Radivoge Miletic, was reduced from 19 to 18 years.

The atrocity took place a few months before the end of the Bosnian war, when 20,000 refugees fled to Srebrenica to escape Serb forces.


It was an enclave protected by UN Dutch soldiers but was overrun by paramilitary troops led by the Bosnian Serb commander Ratko Mladic - after which reports of atrocities began to emerge.


Some of the accused reported directly to Gen Mladic - who is himself currently on trial at the tribunal in The Hague, also accused of genocide.

The accused

Vujadin Popovic

Pleaded not guilty to all charges. Convicted of genocide, crimes against humanity, violation of the laws or customs of war in June 2010; sentenced to life imprisonment
Ljubisa Beara

Pleaded not guilty to all charges. Convicted of genocide, crimes against humanity, violation of the laws or customs of war; sentenced to life imprisonment
Drago Nikolic

Pleaded not guilty to all charges. Convicted of aiding and abetting genocide, crimes against humanity, violation of the laws or customs of war; sentenced to 35 years in jail
Radivoge Miletic

Pleaded not guilty to all charges. Convicted of crimes against humanity; sentenced to 19 years in jail

Vinko Pandurevic

Pleaded not guilty to all charges. Convicted of crimes against humanity and violation of the laws or customs of war; sentenced to 13 years in jail

If one wants truth one looks to proceedings of recognized courts, not to the excuses and misinformation peddled by Serbian apologists. To accuse Bill Clinton or any other foreign leader of the murder of these people is insanity of the highest order.

That individual nationalists of other ethnicities in the Balkans have been found to be guilty of war crimes(which I pointed out in a prior post) does not negate the guilt of the Bosnian Serbs, nor does it change the fact that the vast majority of the war crimes were planned and committed by members of the Serb forces, and, indeed, by men at the highest echelons of those forces.

These comments are equivalent to Holocaust denial. All such further posts will be deleted. The continuation of this behavior will result in infractions.

bicicleur
25-08-15, 00:39
congratulations, the UN criminal tribunal has convicted 5 persons who commited war crimes in 1995

in the mean time war crimes happen every day
I guess the UN criminal tribunal is a very effective weapon to stop all this

Angela
25-08-15, 02:26
There were not only five. I posted that article in response to posts saying either a) the genocide never happened or b) if by any chance it did, it was discovered in subsequent years that the Serbs had nothing to do with it.

Let's say, however, for the sake of argument, that only a dozen or a couple of dozen were ever successfully prosecuted for war crimes committed during the Bosnian War. Your position is that because we have a terrible success rate in bringing war criminals to justice we shouldn't bother to prosecute any of them?

If that is your position, the logic escapes me.

Twilight
25-08-15, 03:00
The UN criminal tribunal has spoken, most recently in 2015. It's the same as a finding of guilty in a regular criminal court. Their guilt can no longer be disputed. To quote:

"A judge at the UN Yugoslav tribunal has upheld the convictions of five men for their role in the Srebrenica massacre.

Sentences for four of the men, high-ranking officials in the Bosnian Serb Army in 1995, were also confirmed.

They had appealed against their convictions in 2010 (http://www.icty.org/x/cases/popovic/cis/en/cis_popovic_al_en.pdf) for a range of crimes including genocide.
About 8,000 Bosnian men and boys were killed in Srebrenica in just three days in 1995 - the worst atrocity on European soil since the Holocaust.

Those life sentences were confirmed on Friday, as were the sentences of 35 years for Drago Nikolic, and 13 years for Vinko Pandurevic. The sentence of the fifth man, Radivoge Miletic, was reduced from 19 to 18 years.

The atrocity took place a few months before the end of the Bosnian war, when 20,000 refugees fled to Srebrenica to escape Serb forces.


It was an enclave protected by UN Dutch soldiers but was overrun by paramilitary troops led by the Bosnian Serb commander Ratko Mladic - after which reports of atrocities began to emerge.


Some of the accused reported directly to Gen Mladic - who is himself currently on trial at the tribunal in The Hague, also accused of genocide.

The accused

Vujadin Popovic

Pleaded not guilty to all charges. Convicted of genocide, crimes against humanity, violation of the laws or customs of war in June 2010; sentenced to life imprisonment
Ljubisa Beara

Pleaded not guilty to all charges. Convicted of genocide, crimes against humanity, violation of the laws or customs of war; sentenced to life imprisonment
Drago Nikolic

Pleaded not guilty to all charges. Convicted of aiding and abetting genocide, crimes against humanity, violation of the laws or customs of war; sentenced to 35 years in jail
Radivoge Miletic

Pleaded not guilty to all charges. Convicted of crimes against humanity; sentenced to 19 years in jail

Vinko Pandurevic

Pleaded not guilty to all charges. Convicted of crimes against humanity and violation of the laws or customs of war; sentenced to 13 years in jail

If one wants truth one looks to proceedings of recognized courts, not to the excuses and misinformation peddled by Serbian apologists. To accuse Bill Clinton or any other foreign leader of the murder of these people is insanity of the highest order.

That individual nationalists of other ethnicities in the Balkans have been found to be guilty of war crimes(which I pointed out in a prior post) does not negate the guilt of the Bosnian Serbs, nor does it change the fact that the vast majority of the war crimes were planned and committed by members of the Serb forces, and, indeed, by men at the highest echelons of those forces.

These comments are equivalent to Holocaust denial. All such further posts will be deleted. The continuation of this behavior will result in infractions.

No problem. We do realize that it is not the majority. I believe that most of the Americans (>90%) are decent and hard working people who believe in democracy. They were just in delusion. Considering my losses, I thank you for your sincere feelings, and must say that I was lucky if compared to some people and their awful experiences. We can continue this subject on PM, but now lets get back on the subject.


Congratulations on the court case, I'm really glad this roller coaster of information has been taken care off :)
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Pic Source:http://travispony.deviantart.com/art/Clapping-Pony-Icon-Season-Four-Twilight-457271167


Muslim in general have a problem, because their religion forbids them express their sexuality freely. I know that some Muslims will feel offended, but I find this idiotic (if it's true). (source (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/72_Virgins))

"Each time we sleep with a Houri we find her virgin. Besides, the penis of the Elected never softens. The erection is eternal; the sensation that you feel each time you make love is utterly delicious and out of this world and were you to experience it in this world you would faint. Each chosen one [i.e. Muslim] will marry seventy [sic] houris, besides the women he married on earth, and all will have appetizing vaginas." - Al-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fi Ulum al-Qur'an, p. 351

"A man asked the Prophet : 0 Prophet of God, will the inmates of Paradise have sexual intercourse ? He said: Anybody among them will be given sexual strength of seven, persons among you. The Prophet said : An inmate of Paradise will have five hundred hurs, four thousand unmarried women and eight thousand widowed women. Each of them will keep embracing him for the duration of his whole worldly life time. He also said: There will be markets in Paradise in which there will be no buy and sale, but there will be men and women. If any man will wish to have sexual intercourse with a woman, he will do at once. The Hurs will sing in Paradise on divine purity and praise-we are most beautiful Hurs and we are for the honoured husbands.", Al Ghazzali, "Ihya Uloom Ed-Din (The Revival of the Religious Sciences) Vol. 4", Death and Subsequent Events 430


Don't know what their idea is, but they really should have more sex here on Earth and relax a bit. I really don't understand how can someone believe for himself that he is a spiritual person just for restraining himself from sex for 50 years, with an idea to obtain an eternal orgy with young, beautiful virgins. Nothing spiritual about it, it's pure materialism and foxiness.

@Angela Now that we got the 20 year old genocide out of the way, how shall we go about commenting on ISIS's theology? :)

Ike
25-08-15, 07:25
The UN criminal tribunal has spoken, most recently in 2015. It's the same as a finding of guilty in a regular criminal court. Their guilt can no longer be disputed.

1. I'm sure that it cannot be disputed, but the justice hasn't been completed. I'm waiting to see Bill Clinton, Robin Cook, Madeline Albright, Warren Zimmerman, Javier Solana, Wesley Clark, Tony Blair and the rest of the gang in their prison cells. It is exactly the same court organized and funded by the same people who planned and organized most atrocities in former Yugoslavia. Mr. Clinton and his war mongering companions. SR Yugoslavia was even in war with those people. American war of aggression and looting of 1999, which was not authorized by UN, was a pinnacle of their ideas for the destruction of what was left free of former Yugoslavia. They are aggressors, mass murderers, occupators and looters. I suggest:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/158367084X/counterpunchmaga

It is obvious that you either have no courage or wish to face the truth, but there are Americans who are willing to stand for it, and would probably be ashamed of you.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-srebrenica-massacre-was-a-gigantic-political-fraud/5321388



2. Why don't you comment on the report I've already linked , where OSCE observer who was on Kosovo reports that US war was responsible for Albanian exodus from Kosovo? I guess it's easier to blame Yugoslavia. I can't believe that you have the courage to discuss the rape cases with your global 'blame the victim' approach.
http://www.iacenter.org/warcrime/rkeith.htm




3. Once again, why did US talked Muslims into denying his peace plan acceptance? Why don't you answer? It happened 2 times:

First time in 1992. for Carrington-Cutiliero plan:

"On 18 March 1992, all three sides signed the agreement; Alija Izetbegović for the Bosniaks, Radovan Karadžić for the Serbs and Mate Boban for the Croats.
On 28 March 1992, after a meeting with US ambassador to Yugoslavia Warren Zimmermann in Sarajevo, Izetbegović withdrew his signature and declared his opposition to any division of Bosnia."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_plans_offered_before_and_during_the_Bosnian_ War#Carrington.E2.80.93Cutileiro_plan


Second time in 1995, when Owen-Stoltenberg plan was in question. Already been linked:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUuhSGnLvv8&feature=youtu.be&t=25m



4. Now why did US government wanted for war to begin, and why didn't they want it to end? I suggest you to watch less TV and newspaper, and read more real books. It has very much with ISIS and it's current activity
http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/07/16/denying-the-srebrenica-genocide-because-its-not-true-an-interview-with-diana-johnstone/
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NATO and CIA cannot hide their bloody tracks. They are all over the planet:
http://journal-neo.org/2014/12/17/isis-bloody-footprints-lead-from-nato-territory/

bicicleur
25-08-15, 08:29
There were not only five. I posted that article in response to posts saying either a) the genocide never happened or b) if by any chance it did, it was discovered in subsequent years that the Serbs had nothing to do with it.

Let's say, however, for the sake of argument, that only a dozen or a couple of dozen were ever successfully prosecuted for war crimes committed during the Bosnian War. Your position is that because we have a terrible success rate in bringing war criminals to justice we shouldn't bother to prosecute any of them?

If that is your position, the logic escapes me.

this thread is about war crimes commited every day today by ISIS

it was you in post nr 3 who told me I should be outraged by the Serbs

the Yugoslav war was - despite all the cruelties happening - a small local war like many are still happening today

ISIS and the like form a worldlwide threat today

Angela
25-08-15, 18:45
this thread is about war crimes commited every day today by ISIS

it was you in post nr 3 who told me I should be outraged by the Serbs

the Yugoslav war was - despite all the cruelties happening - a small local war like many are still happening today

ISIS and the like form a worldlwide threat today

I don't disagree, Bicicleur. Beyond the obvious, which is that this is morally repugnant, the geo-political implications are worrisome. What happens if this movement comes to control large swathes of the Middle East? What if they come to control all the oil supplies in the region? What will be the implications for the world economy? Also, how serious are they about exporting this "theology" to Europe? How receptive will the restive Muslim populations of Europe be to that message? Most worrisome of all, what are the possibilities for a sort of doomsday scenario where the leaders of this movement might get their hands on nuclear weapons. It's bad enough that the Iranians will have them soon.

What can be done about any of this? What will work? What, and this is a separate issue, what do the European nations have the will to do?

I don't have the answers to any of that, just questions.

bicicleur
25-08-15, 19:38
I have the same taughts, worries and feelings.

I should be more worried than you. Because of its proximity the threat is bigger for Europe than America.

I hope there is just a small minority of European Muslims that sympathise with ISIS and the like, but I'm sure there are. It's impossible to tell how many.
I have a feeling Muslims in America are less radical. Am I correct?

Europe should learn how to defend itself. It doesn't know how to and is not equiped, because it has relied to much on America to do the dirty work whenever that was needed.

si vis pacem, para bellum

Angela
25-08-15, 20:45
I have the same taughts, worries and feelings.

I should be more worried than you. Because of its proximity the threat is bigger for Europe than America.

I hope there is just a small minority of European Muslims that sympathise with ISIS and the like, but I'm sure there are. It's impossible to tell how many.
I have a feeling Muslims in America are less radical. Am I correct?

Europe should learn how to defend itself. It doesn't know how to and is not equiped, because it has relied to much on America to do the dirty work whenever that was needed.

si vis pacem, para bellum

You're absolutely right about all of this, in my opinion.

The only gloss I would add is that I don't think it's just that Europe has gotten too used to the U.S. being the policeman. I think the internal ethnic tensions in Europe make speaking and planning in a united way very difficult. Then there's the fact that Europe was drenched in blood during the 20th century. Many Europeans are sickened by the thought of any more wars. It's totally an understandable reaction. The U.S. last fought a war like that in the 1860's. Time has muted the impact of the carnage.

Many Europeans, and Americans too, have learned the wrong lessons from history, in my opinion. Unilaterally adopting a pacifist approach is not going to ensure that there won't be blood shed; it just ensures that when it happens you will lose. Human beings haven't changed. Human behavior hasn't changed. The ambitions of certain nation states or certain radical religious groups hasn't changed. One has to be ready to cooperate, to trust, certainly one shouldn't be the aggressor, but one also has to be prudent and cautious, and one has to be informed and ready and armed to protect oneself if necessary, should other forces do the unthinkable. That's true in life as well as in geopolitics.

As to the Muslims in the U.S., there's a certain amount of distrust of them, and a few reports of unacceptable things being taught in certain mosques, but it is not the same as it is in Europe. For one thing, the numbers are much smaller. For another, they are far more assimilated than the Muslims of Europe. It's just a different situation. The identity is a civic one, not an "ethnic" one. The pressure to become "American" is very strong, but more importantly, it's made very attractive. I can attest to it because I experienced it.

The Tsarnaev brothers of the Boston Marathon infamy were an abberation, in my opinion. The Uncle's reaction: ""You put a shame on our entire family -- the Tsarnaev family -- and you put a shame on the entire Chechen ethnicity," Tsarni said. When asked what provoked the bombing suspects, the uncle stated: "Being losers, hatred to those who were able to settle themselves -- these are the only reasons I can imagine."

In most of the cases which have taken place on U.S. soil, they so far all appear to be instances of young men having a severe psychiatric break who are largely just using jihadist rhetoric to clothe what is really severe mental illness. It's like the school shooting phenomena. It's a form of what the police call "suicide by cop". What we see in Europe, is, I think, largely different.

bicicleur
26-08-15, 08:13
Immigrants in the US have to find a job and integrate to survive.
In Europe immigrants are welcomed by a local agency with 'social' workers who don't use their own resources but taxpayers money.
They provide housing and money for expenses like food, clothing, utilities and transportation.
They attract poor illiterate uneducated people who were allready living in the margin of society in their country of origin.
They are given no incentives to find a job or integrate.
They don't even bother to learn the language of their new country. They form communities with other people with the same language and origin.
They are neither apt nor have the ambition for a job.
The birth rate in these communities is very high. The more children, the more money they recieve.
The 2nd generation is neither apt nor is interested in school but become jealous of their classmates.
They become small criminals. It became known that over 80 % of durg dealers in Antwerp are Morrocans of Berber origin. Yet who speaks about that is labeled a 'racist'.
More than 50 % of Europeans that go to join ISIS in Syria have a criminal record. They have allready spoiled their own future in Europe for themselves.
The Thalys terrorist of 21 august (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Thalys_attack) fits exactly that profile (he is a young Marrocon with a criminal record for drug dealing, I don't know whether Berber or Arab).
In Belgium and France the biggest worries are the Morrocans, in the UK it is the Pakistanis and other nationalities in other countries.

In order to cope with the new wave of immigrants among who this time there are also real refugees all immigrant agencies should be reorganised.
All 'social' workers should be thrown out and replaced by correct but severe and pragmatic people.
I don't think it is going to happen.

The west was never friend with corrupt and cruel dictators like Kahdafi, Sadam Houssain or Assad, and so it should be.
But we ('the west') should never have tried to overthrow them as we are unable to install a stable and better regime.
Bush Sr was a wise man when he launched Desert Storm but didn't let his troops attack Bagdad.
His son was probably the stupidest president in American history.
Democracy has many flaws but it may work in America and Europe. But we shouldn't try to impose it in other parts of the world.
We shouldn't blaim ourselves for whatever goes wrong in the world nor should we allow others to do so.
We should defend our own values and our own way of life.
There are some principles to defend but there is also a lot of nonsense coming out of the offices of the United Nations.

There is nothing I can do, just ventilate my opinion.

Tomenable
20-09-15, 21:25
I hope there is just a small minority of European Muslims that sympathise with ISIS and the like, but I'm sure there are. It's impossible to tell how many.

It is possible to tell how many, thanks to opinion polls: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/opinion-polls.htm

Also thanks to data collected by intelligence services: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry3NzkAOo3s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry3NzkAOo3s

Leandros
01-08-17, 08:50
ISIS(Israeli Security Intelligence Service) is not Humanity