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Tomenable
20-08-15, 03:12
As for the original homeland of Proto-East-Balts (I will simply call them East Balts below):

According to Russian studies of linguistics, toponymy (including hydronymy) and archaeology, such as these:

- Трубачев О. Н., Топоров В. Н., Лингвистический анализ гидронимов Верхнего Поднепровья
- Седов В.В., Происхождение и ранная истрия Славян
- Седов В. В., Славяние верхнево Поднепровья и Подвинья
- Бернштейн С. Б., Очерк сравнительной граматики славянских языков
- Третьяков П. Н., Памятники зарубинецкой культуры

The Iron Age homeland of East Balts were forest cultures of North-West Russia characterised by hillforts and long barrows.

That network of hillfort-building cultures of the forest zone, included primarily the following four cultures:

- Stroked-pottery culture
- Dnieper-Dvina culture
- Yukhnov culture
- Upper Oka culture

Areas occupied by those Iron Age cultures, contained archaeological sites (both Iron Age and older) described in these papers:

Dolukhanov et al., "The East European Plain on the Eve of Agriculture":

http://www.mas.ncl.ac.uk/~nas13/AS/2009BAR_Int_Ser1964_Dolukhanov_etal.pdf

Dolbunova et al., "Archaeology of lake settlement (North-West Russia)":

https://www.academia.edu/9452168/Archaeology_of_lake_settlement_IV-II_mill._BC_Mazurkevich_A._Polkovnikova_M._Dolbuno va_E._ed

In the latter paper we have results of aDNA research, in Table 3. on p. 294 we have 6 samples:

For these samples mtDNA and Y-DNA haplogroups were established (but only superficially, no details about subclades are given):

1) The oldest of these samples is from the turns of the 5th and 4th millennia BC (I bet that this R1a didn't belong to Indo-European branch M198/M417, but it was some more archaic subclade, similar to Karelian R1a dated 5500-5000 BC, or to modern R1a kit of Mr Szpakowski, an ethnic Pole from Belarus):

Sample A3 - site Serteya VIII - dated to ca. 4000 BC; Y-DNA: R1a1, mtDNA: H

2) Three medium-aged samples belong to Zhizhitskaya culture from the mid-3rd millennium BC. It was under strong cultural influence of Corded Ware and/or Globular Amphora cultures. According to Dolukhanov et al. (page 185), Corded or Globular population penetrated this culture, mixing with the locals:

Sample A6 - site Serteya II - dated to ca. 2500 BC; Y-DNA: N1c, mtDNA: H2
Sample A8 - site Naumovo - dated to ca. 2500 BC; Y-DNA: R1a1, mtDNA: H2
Smple A9 - site Serteya II - dated to ca. 2500 BC; Y-DNA: R1a1, mtDNA: H2

3) Two youngest samples (800-400 BC) are Iron Age, part of the network of hillfort-building cultures of the forest zone. R1a (A4) was inside the hillfort, where warrios and craftsmen lived (Dolukhanov et al., p. 187), while N1c (A5) was in "Devichi gory" burial (long barrow/kurgan?) near the lake:

Sample A4 - Anashkino hillfort - dated to ca. 800-400 BC; Y-DNA: R1a1, mtDNA: H
Sample A5 - "Devichi gory" burial - dated to ca. 800-400 BC, Y-DNA: N1c, mtDNA: H2

There is lack of high-resolution data on subclades, but R1a1 and N1c in proportion 1:1 are also today typical haplogroups of East Balts.

Map showing these sites (I couldn't locate "Devichi gory" burial ground, but it was somewhere near the Zhizhitskoye Lake):

http://postimg.org/image/hsmtvl7xd/

http://s8.postimg.org/fbb2obo11/map_of_locations.png

I think, that R1a from Zhizhitskaya culture and Anashkino hillfort was of Satem IE origin, while N1c was from Non-Indo-European (Old European or Finnic?) population. So East Balts were a mix of R1a and N1c already when living in forests of North-West Russia, before settling at the Sea.

Was ethnogenesis of East Baslts about mixing of Satem IEs (Globular Amphora or/and Corded Ware) with people of Zhizhitskaya culture?

Zhizhitskaya culture was a Late Neolithic culture of fishermen and farmers, building pile dwellings near lakes and rivers. It was at least partially descended from earlier indigenous North-East European cultures of the Comb Ceramic horizon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit–Comb_Ware_culture

Population of Iron Age cultures of that area (like those from Anashkino hillfort and "Devichi gory") buried their dead in long barrows (long kurgans).

Here is a map showing the area occupied by Zhizhitskaya culture - area number 7 in this map:

This area (No 7) was being penetrated (areas 2 and 16) by people of the Globular Amphora culture (area 1):

http://postimg.org/image/hsmtvl7xd/

http://i59.tinypic.com/6p3vyx.png

Legend to the map:

http://i62.tinypic.com/fjooig.png

Lake Zhizhitskoye - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Zhizhitskoye
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Zhizhitskoye)
========================================

Samples described above: http://s020.radikal.ru/i704/1502/be/a19103cc4d67.png

http://s020.radikal.ru/i704/1502/be/a19103cc4d67.png

EAB
05-09-15, 19:39
Does anyone know what these N1c people were like beyond the Y chromosome? Were they in the same group as the R1as? My main curiousity is that it looks to me that people in the Artic circle had a very different appearance before the turn of the century, and nowadays are almost indistinguishable from the main countries (Samis etc). This may be inaccurate and just my small observation of pictures, but perhaps these cultures have always had mixed phenotypes.

DuPidh
05-09-15, 20:47
Does anyone know what these N1c people were like beyond the Y chromosome? Were they in the same group as the R1as? My main curiousity is that it looks to me that people in the Artic circle had a very different appearance before the turn of the century, and nowadays are almost indistinguishable from the main countries (Samis etc). This may be inaccurate and just my small observation of pictures, but perhaps these cultures have always had mixed phenotypes.

The members of this forum who are knowledgeable about genetics, have emphasized that Mtdna is determinant in ones phenotype. If you check the map of N1c published by Maciamo at genetics section it is clear that N1c in Europe its an extension of Mongolic people in Europe. So back in time the should have looked like an Eskimo of Alaska looks today. The N1c populations of Europe are distinguishable from other European populations. If you go to Finland, Estonia or some Hungarians, and many Russians you can see that. Google the picture of Russian ex president Yelcin and you will see that his physical appearance is not quite European. His haplotype could very well be N1c.

LeBrok
05-09-15, 23:08
The members of this forum who are knowledgeable about genetics, have emphasized that Mtdna is determinant in ones phenotype. If you check the map of N1c published by Maciamo at genetics section it is clear that N1c in Europe its an extension of Mongolic people in Europe. So back in time the should have looked like an Eskimo of Alaska looks today. The N1c populations of Europe are distinguishable from other European populations. If you go to Finland, Estonia or some Hungarians, and many Russians you can see that. Google the picture of Russian ex president Yelcin and you will see that his physical appearance is not quite European. His haplotype could very well be N1c.
I don't think it is true. We have no idea how N1c folks looked like 5 kya. Perhaps they had some Mongoloid features, perhaps.

Fire Haired14
05-09-15, 23:56
mtDNA is unrelated to phenotype. mtDNA is your direct maternal line, passed down from mom to kids. Phenotype is caused by differnt genes.

DuPidh
06-09-15, 00:07
I don't think it is true. We have no idea how N1c folks looked like 5 kya. Perhaps they had some Mongoloid features, perhaps.

The Eskimos, because of their location have not had any significant gene inflow from other groups. According to the recent genetic studies the native population of Americas has genetic kinship with Siberians and Australasia's. Clearly the N1c people of Europe are a branch of Siberian people.

LeBrok
06-09-15, 01:34
The Eskimos, because of their location have not had any significant gene inflow from other groups. According to the recent genetic studies the native population of Americas has genetic kinship with Siberians and Australasia's. And what Native American or even North East Asians have got to do with N1c? Can you point us to any Mongolian/Asian looking people with any substantial amount of N1c?

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/mongols.html
I don't see any N1c among Mongols.


Clearly the N1c people of Europe are a branch of Siberian people. Even if they have started their journey in Siberia 5 thousand years ago, it doesn't mean that they were Mongoloid folks there. Especially when we are talking about West Siberia, because back then central Asia was populated mostly by Caucasoid type people.

arvistro
06-09-15, 11:12
To be honest numerically there is more Chinese N than non-Chinese N.

LeBrok
06-09-15, 21:15
To be honest numerically there is more Chinese N than non-Chinese N.Your honesty is misplaced. We are talking about subclade N1c, not the entire N haplogroup.

arvistro
06-09-15, 21:32
Your honesty is misplaced. We are talking about subclade N1c, not the entire N haplogroup.
OK, for N1c Han Chinese are not majority numerically, they are only 44% of total N1c.

arvistro
06-09-15, 21:41
Also high ANE folk has/had features that used to be commonly marked as Mongoloid. Although more correct term would be Uralic.
Yamna and steppe migrants to Europe according to Gimbutas had those features too in some amount.
I cant help but see N1c origin in either ANE rich or East Asian rich population or both.

LeBrok
06-09-15, 21:43
OK, for N1c Han Chinese are not majority numerically, they are only 44% of total N1c.
You are right, I didn't remember well.
So what do you think about first N1c look in Syberia? Mongoloid?

arvistro
06-09-15, 22:37
You are right, I didn't remember well.
So what do you think about first N1c look in Syberia? Mongoloid?
Syberian :)

Only thing I can safely bet is "they had features in old books marked as Mongoloid". But whether first n1c was born to Han looking guy or North Asian looking guy or maybe even someone not far from EHG, I dont know.

EAB
07-09-15, 22:53
I lived in Sweden and I have taught English in Hungary. Whilst there is a particular type of eye shape of Finnish people and some Sammi blondes, that is the single thing that has a near "asian" appearance. Asians from region to region also have quite different looks. In reality I think a lot of our perceptions about how asians look come from the conformity communism put on squeezing out character from the individual. I also think some degree of their look is from their child rearing by the way babies and locked into their beds rather than genetic. Native Americans often don't look very Asian and they don't have the same child rearing practices. By the same token, perhaps the originators of N1c didn't look asian. With Finns, Sammis, Inuits and other Siberians looking so different it always makes me curious. The tribe hailed as the oldest tribe on earth has the face types of many different modern races which makes it look like they are actually an admixture themselves. I was really interested if facial reconstructions had been done like on the (controversial) Ice Maiden. I could buy the fact that people coming from the Steppes looked like a combination of the Tocharians and Baskhirs. There probably wasn't a universal phenotype at that point, but I would be surprised if a historical source hadn't mentioned the way people looked being Chinese when Romans etc did know what they looked like.

EAB
07-09-15, 22:56
Also I haven't seen a single person in Hungary who looks asian apart from asians. Hungarians to me look a more different than English or Danish people look to each other. There are certain looks that are quite common. The kind of Italian look, the Serbian look, the slavic look and the German style are all rather common, and of course people who have Romani heritage. But I never saw someone look Asian who wasn't just from Asia.

Fire Haired14
08-09-15, 00:49
@EAB,

I dis agree about there being a lot of variation in (East)Asian facial features. In my experiences East Asians are uniform in facial features. In European pops there's plenty of variation. Two brothers can look completely differnt. In African-Americans there's more variation.

I've been to Korean churches, there are Chinese and Korean exchange students at my school, I've grown up knowing Vietnamese people and they all look very similar to each other.

Tomenable
08-09-15, 05:12
@EAB,

I dis agree about there being a lot of variation in (East)Asian facial features. In my experiences East Asians are uniform in facial features. In European pops there's plenty of variation. Two brothers can look completely differnt. In African-Americans there's more variation.

I've been to Korean churches, there are Chinese and Korean exchange students at my school, I've grown up knowing Vietnamese people and they all look very similar to each other.

Maybe this is because "Mongoloid look" is determined by just one (?) mutation, it seems:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ectodysplasin_A_receptor#East_Asian_characteristic s


A point mutation in EDAR, 370A, found in most East Asians but not common in African or European populations, is thought to be responsible for a number of differences between these populations (...) The 370A mutation arose in humans approximately 30,000 years ago, and now is found in 93% of Han Chinese and in the majority of people in nearby Asian populations.

On the other hand, what we see as differences in facial features is mostly an illusion.

Our brains are programmed to see more details in faces than in other objects - usually:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosopagnosia


Prosopagnosia /ˌprɒsəpæɡˈnoʊʒə/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English) (Greek: "prosopon" = "face", "agnosia" = "not knowing"), also called face blindness,[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosopagnosia#cite_note-faceblindness-1) is a cognitive disorder of face perception (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_perception) where the ability to recognize faces (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face) is impaired, while other aspects of visual processing (e.g., object discrimination) and intellectual functioning (e.g., decision making) remain intact.
(...)
The specific brain area usually associated with prosopagnosia is the fusiform gyrus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusiform_gyrus),[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosopagnosia#cite_note-cnn2407-3) which activates specifically in response to faces. The functionality of the fusiform gyrus allows most people to recognize faces in more detail than they do similarly complex inanimate objects. For those with prosopagnosia, the new method for recognizing faces depends on the less-sensitive object recognition system.

Maybe East Asians can see just as much variation in their facial features, as Europeans.

==================================

Humans can't distinguish 2 chimpanzees from each other based on faces. But chimpanzees can.

Tomenable
08-09-15, 05:42
Check also:

"East Asian Physical Traits Linked to 35,000-Year-Old Mutation":

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/15/science/studying-recent-human-evolution-at-the-genetic-level.html?pagewanted=print&_r=0

As well as this written by Razib Khan:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2013/02/is-girls-generation-the-outcome-of-the-pleistocene-mind/#.Ve5Hx32DqOW


To make a long story short they infer that there was one mutation on the order of ~30,000 years before the present, and that it swept up in frequency driven by selection coefficients on the order of ~0.10 (10% increase relative fitness, which is incredibly powerful!). This is on the extreme end of selective sweeps
(...)
Let’s review all the awesome things they did in this study. They dug deeply into the evolutionary genomics of the region around the EDAR, concluding that this haplotype was driven up in frequency from on ancestral variant ~30,000 years ago in a hard selective sweep. And a sweep of notable strength in terms of selection coefficient. This may be one of the largest effect targets of natural selection in the genome of non-Africans over the past 50,000 years.
(...)
many salient physical characteristics of the human races seem to be due to strong selection events at a few loci. In addition to EDAR I’m thinking of the pigmentation loci, such as SLC24A5. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was something similar for the epicanthic fold. If it is visible, and defines between populations differences, it is generally not genomically trivial. There’s usually a story underneath that difference.

But why was there such a strong positive selection for this mutation? This is harder to explain:


in the broad scale of human natural history the problem that arises for me is that we have traits, we have genes under selection, but we have very weak stories to explain the mechanism and context of natural selection. Here there is a strong contrast with the loci around lactase persistence and malaria resistance. In those situations the causal mechanism for the selection seems relatively clear. Critics of evolutionary psychology are wont to accuse the field of ‘Just So’ storytelling, but the same problem crops up in the more intellectually insulated domain of evolutionary genomics (in part because the field is very new, and also mathematically and computationally abstruse).

The author describes and confronts some possibilities (mostly natural selection vs. sexual selection).

Anyway - that part of N1c which migrated to Europe apparently did not carry that mutation, or lost it in Europe.

EAB
08-09-15, 13:42
There doesn't have to be a positive choice of features. Imagine you are considered ugly in a tribe, the only other person who will go with you may also be ugly. What if at one point the features of caucasoids and asians in a single tribe caused them to split. Perhaps they didn't like each other and decided to go their separate ways. Asian people do have a huge variety in their look. Whilst they have a very clear set of Asian features, they do look very different from one place to another. I think this has been lost by the fact they looked more similar than different to the western perception. Asians do have the same problem when coming to Europe recognising people, it isn't a one way phenomenon. Some of this is culture, I met some Chinese girls in Sweden and they at first couldn't understand why white girls wanted to sunbathe all the time. In China they said they went around with parasols when it was sunny to keep whiter, because (like Victorians) they considered a sun tan a sign of low status. In Sweden they went sunbathing for the first time and got their first tans. Their parents were shocked when they saw them next. To put it into perspective, these Chinese people couldn't tell the difference between an Albanian Swede, a Turkish Swede or a Swedish Swede. This was more ignorance than the differences these people had. There are a large amount of head shapes in Asia, just like there was among the Native Americans at the time of Kennewick man and in the present. The eye hood as well is only prevalent in some Asians.

Angela
08-09-15, 17:24
EDAR, to my knowledge, has nothing to do with an epicanthic fold in the eye. It codes for " thicker hair, more numerous sweat glands, smaller breasts, and dentition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinodonty_and_Sundadonty) characteristic."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ectodysplasin_A_receptor

Most of those seem to be characteristics that would correlate with physical fitness in certain environments, normal traits upon which good old fashioned natural selection would operate. The thicker hair might lend itself to social selection as well, and I suppose you might say the same thing about smaller breasts if for some reason, unlike among westerners, that was a prized trait.

It's true that researchers found that some of the SHG carried the EDAR gene. I don't recall anything being said about epicanthic folds. I don't know how the presence of such a soft tissue characteristic could be verified.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2015/03/natural-selection-and-ancient-european.html
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/03/13/016477.full.pdf

@EAB,

Pardon me, but anecdotal evidence is hardly dispositive. Those Chinese people must have been blind to claim to have been unable to tell the difference between a Turkish Swede and a local. Pigmentation alone in the vast majority of cases would tell you that...a comment like that is just plain silly.

If we wanted to go down the anecdotal route, my daughter's Korean friend once told me that she had trouble telling members of one East Asian group from another, and that if their heads were shaved she wouldn't be able to tell males from females either, most of the time. That may be just as wrong as what these Chinese people supposedly said.

The fact remains that with Europeans we at least have differences in hair and eye color on which to "fix", along with some major differences with body type, which isn't true with East Asians.

None of this should be a surprise given the results from genetics. Any two East Asians are as genetically close as cousins are in Europe.

EAB
09-09-15, 00:19
I am not saying the Chinese can't see the hair colour, it just doesn't mean something to them. They'd never been to Turkey or Albania so they don't know how these people look. Sweden is a very contrary country, so you shouldn't be surprised. In fact, Turkish, Albanians and others are so common in Sweden that they are 10% of the country, no one tells this to a Chinese person they just think it is a local. The culture in Sweden is that the Swedes do their best to tan, and in particular, the women put on fake tan, whilst the immigrants dye their hair blonde. When you are confronted with a light skinned Iraqi with dyed blonde hair and green eyes in a country which you haven't visited before, let alone been introduced to the locals, they look pretty similar. When you add the fact many Swedish men grow beards like Jihadis, you don't know from the first glance who is who.

I do accept your point that asians look more similar than different, especially considering Icelandic people are very closely related and still have different hair and eye colours. It might be possible there was a lot more variety in Asian haplogroups in the past, just as there probably was in other haplogroups, that bottlenecked. I stand by my thoughts Asians in general do have a much wider range of looks than we in the west often think they have, like blonde Mongolians, people without heavy eye lids and different colour hair.

EAB
09-09-15, 01:56
The people in these picture are an illustration of what I mean, you can't tell their ethnic group just by looking. http://blog.radissonblu.com/scandinavian-style-and-shopping-in-stockholm/

Ukko
20-09-15, 04:09
The members of this forum who are knowledgeable about genetics, have emphasized that Mtdna is determinant in ones phenotype. If you check the map of N1c published by Maciamo at genetics section it is clear that N1c in Europe its an extension of Mongolic people in Europe. So back in time the should have looked like an Eskimo of Alaska looks today. The N1c populations of Europe are distinguishable from other European populations. If you go to Finland, Estonia or some Hungarians, and many Russians you can see that. Google the picture of Russian ex president Yelcin and you will see that his physical appearance is not quite European. His haplotype could very well be N1c.

You wish, what they did have common with mongols is that they where highly mobile and liked to invade other peoples.

DuPidh
20-09-15, 06:17
You wish, what they did have common with mongols is that they where highly mobile and liked to invade other peoples.

I have seen some finish people in the Usa. Some of them show east Asian features. There are others who look Slavic.
What do I wish? N1c people in Europe are not conquerors. They are small group of people who lived in harsh climatic conditions. They did not posses any technology and their life stile was primitive. As time went by They intermarried with local Europeans and produced what is today called Finish or Sami. N1c people of Europe are a branch of Mongolic type.

Ukko
20-09-15, 12:28
I have seen some finish people in the Usa. Some of them show east Asian features. There are others who look Slavic.
What do I wish? N1c people in Europe are not conquerors. They are small group of people who lived in harsh climatic conditions. They did not posses any technology and their life stile was primitive. As time went by They intermarried with local Europeans and produced what is today called Finish or Sami. N1c people of Europe are a branch of Mongolic type.

Where there Mongoloids living in the Balkans 20.000 years ago?

How did these primitive people spread in to areas already populated by Indo-Europeans during the Bronze Age?

How did these primitive people move rapidly in to Europe and Asia from the Volga-Kama region during the Bronze Age?






http://www.kolumbus.fi/geodun/YDNA/SNP-N-TREE-FIN.jpg

arvistro
05-10-15, 11:16
Actually Pskov long barrows VIII AD could have been (East?) Baltic culture similar to Lettigalians. Discussions are not settled.
If N is Baltic type, it would add weight to pro-Baltic arguments. Also for Neroma - Latigola link.
But that depends on type of N.

Ukko
08-10-15, 02:26
Actually Pskov long barrows VIII AD could have been (East?) Baltic culture similar to Lettigalians. Discussions are not settled.
If N is Baltic type, it would add weight to pro-Baltic arguments. Also for Neroma - Latigola link.
But that depends on type of N.

They could even be the Karelian-East Finnish type, Pskov is in the middle of Baltic Finnic homeland, the Baltic types are clearly a branch of Baltic Finns.

arvistro
08-10-15, 16:12
Speaking of N. It is quite clear to me that Balts have M2782 mutation under L1025 one. As per tree you provided.
But - question - do you know if N have also clear lines for Uralic branches?
Say - Baltic Finns specific lines, Erzya, Moksha lines, Hanti lines, etc...

Or they are all cocktail?

Ukko
08-10-15, 19:25
Speaking of N. It is quite clear to me that Balts have M2782 mutation under L1025 one. As per tree you provided.
But - question - do you know if N have also clear lines for Uralic branches?
Say - Baltic Finns specific lines, Erzya, Moksha lines, Hanti lines, etc...

Or they are all cocktail?

L1026 seems to fit nicely with Uralic Urheimat in the Volga-Kama around 2000 BC.

From there it spread in to the Baltic and Siberia, there are clear signs of correlation in the Uralic groups for this geographic spread but more results are needed.

Volga-Finns seem to have got some L1022 and Z1941 also but they look more like connected to the Eastern trade routes and decending from the Baltic Finnish lines.

VL 29 looks like the only possible carrier for Baltic Finnic in to Estonia, Livonia and SW Finland, its branches and expands around 500 BC from around Pskov-Lake Ilmen- St.Petersburg region.

arvistro
08-10-15, 20:09
What is called in that tree Karelian and Savonian branches do not come from VL29. Are those prominent in some other (non-Baltic Finnic) Uralic populations?

Ukko
08-10-15, 23:52
What is called in that tree Karelian and Savonian branches do not come from VL29. Are those prominent in some other (non-Baltic Finnic) Uralic populations?

It is clearly a Finnic-Uralic branch but cant be the one that spread Baltic Finnic in to Estonia, Livonia and SW Finland.

It is often connected to ancient Karelians, Veps and Bjarmians and this is supported by it its modern spread in Karelians, Savonians, Veps etc.

IMO it is the branch that spread Sami language in Fennoscandia, handling the trade there and in the White Sea trade routes.
Some Finns dont agree but I think they shifted language to Baltic Finnic during the Iron Age and later as Baltic Finnish expansion to those areas began.

arvistro
09-10-15, 00:49
Do you have any estimates re proportion of L1022 and L550 vs total N for Estonians and Finns and other Finnic populations (including North Rus and Sweden)?

Ukko
09-10-15, 09:57
Do you have any estimates re proportion of L1022 and L550 vs total N for Estonians and Finns and other Finnic populations (including North Rus and Sweden)?



I have my own guess estimates based on the families carrying particular haplogroups in genealogy projects and released data by researchers.

L1022 and L550 seem to be concentrated in Western Finland and could make 50% or more of the N there.

The Estonian samples that researchers are sitting on would help solve the mystery faster.

The oldest L1022 and L550 continue to be found in SW Finland and NW Estonia, I would place the origin of both around the Finnish Gulf.

That matches logically with the later spread in Sweden, Gotland and Livonia.

arvistro
09-10-15, 10:53
Many thanks for input you already provided, but I will go on asking questions :)
For me as Baltic guy interesting question is also what differentiates L550 vs L1022?
From tree it looks like L550 is Fenno-Scandian and L1022 a Finnish affair, but when looking deeper they both actually seem to walk hand in hand. So, simple thing like - 550 is coastal, 1022 insular does not work. They are both coastal.

Is there at least something else to differ them - apart from Balts only having the 550? Are they evenly mixed in Estonian, Finnish and surrounding folk?
Like - do Finns have more L1022 or L550? What would be proportions 2:1, 5:1, 1:1?

Ukko
09-10-15, 11:29
Many thanks for input you already provided, but I will go on asking questions :)
For me as Baltic guy interesting question is also what differentiates L550 vs L1022?
From tree it looks like L550 is Fenno-Scandian and L1022 a Finnish affair, but when looking deeper they both actually seem to walk hand in hand. So, simple thing like - 550 is coastal, 1022 insular does not work. They are both coastal.

Is there at least something else to differ them - apart from Balts only having the 550? Are they evenly mixed in Estonian, Finnish and surrounding folk?
Like - do Finns have more L1022 or L550? What would be proportions 2:1, 5:1, 1:1?


Only researchers have that info, L1022 is more common in West Finland than L550, in Estonia it could be just the opposite but both have them.