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View Full Version : I2a2a (M223) Mainhaplogroup of the Suebi (elbgermanic tribes)?



Hesse
07-09-15, 15:58
The hotspot of M223 is today arround the Harz-Mountains in Germany.
Other Hotspots are in Vństerbotten (Sweden) Eastanglia (England) and the Lowlands (Scotland).
Another areas with a higher Level are the Benelux, Danmark and the Chech Republik.
The Roman political Tacitus says the Suebian Tribes lived west and east of the river Elbe and south of the Baltic sea. This was the same area wehre the Aunjetizer-Cultur had been.
Peter Heather is also speaking in His Book "Babarian Invasion" from the "Suebian-Triangle". It matsches nearly the same area in 3th century a.d.
Tacitus also says that the Angles have been a tribe of the Suebians. This would explain the hotspots in Britain and East Ireland.
You also find some M223 inthe northwest of the iberian penisuela - the Kingdom of the Suebians.
Some Thuringians - a elbgermanic tribe - settled near the Rhine in the 5th century. So we have some M223 in the Benelux
Parts of the Suebians have been Alamanni und that is the reason you find M223 in some areas of swiss.
I think in Sweden it could bee a bottleneck-effect in Vństerbotten. Perhapst Traiders of the Hanse in Medieval times.

What do You think?

bicicleur
07-09-15, 16:19
I think the Suebi were allready a mixture of many different Y-haplogroups

Hesse
09-09-15, 15:21
Sure,

there are more R1a, R1b and I1a members in the Suebian tribes. But I think the Suebians had the highest part of all european tribes in that time with Y-HG I2a2a (nearly 25%?)
Look at the Unetice Culture (c. 2300-1600 BCE) until the indoeuropean invasion.
Until the Slavic immigration in the 6th century a.d the most Suebi left the area east of the Elbe. So today You only have a hotspot of I2a2a around the Harz Mountains in this area.

vandalorum
10-09-15, 20:59
All Y-DNA is rather invaders/emigrants (politic or social and economic) marker, I wonder what will be after some time... will J1 and J2 prevail in Germany and west Europe? - Syrian etc refugees, who give the birth to more children?

Jason Neuharth
01-10-15, 15:30
I-M223

Haplogroup I2a2a (ISOGG 2014). The age of YSTR variation for the I-M223 subclade is 13.2┬▒2.7 kya[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M438#cite_note-familytreedna.com-1) and 12.3┬▒3.1 kya.[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M438#cite_note-Peter_Underhill_2007_pp._33-42-10) I-M223 has a peak in Germany and another in eastern Sweden, but also appears in Romania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania)/Moldova (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldova), Russia, Greece, Italy and around the Black Sea.[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M438#cite_note-16) Haplogroup I2a2a has been found in over 4% of the population only in Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany), the Netherlands (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands), Belgium (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgium), Denmark (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark). England (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England) (excluding Cornwall (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornwall)), Scotland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland), also the southern tips of Sweden (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden) and Norway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway) in Northwest Europe; the provinces of Normandy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normandy), Maine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maine_(province)), Anjou (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anjou), and Perche (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perche) in northwestern France (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France); the province of Provence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provence) in southeastern France; the regions of Tuscany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuscany), Umbria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbria), and Latium (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latium) in Italy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy); Moldavia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldavia) and the area around Russia's Ryazan Oblast (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryazan_Oblast) and Republic of Mordovia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordovia) in Eastern Europe. Of historical note, both haplogroups I-M253 and I-M223 appear at a low frequency in the historical regions of Bithynia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bithynia) and Galatia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia) in Turkey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey). Haplogroup I2a2a also occurs among approximately 1% of the Sardinians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinia). The subclade divergence for M223 occurred 14.6┬▒3.8 kya (Rootsi 2004).
Haplogroup I-M223 can be further subdivided in several subclades designated in the Y2012 ISOGG tree as follows: Haplogroup I-M223* with no further known polymorphisms, Haplogroup I-M284 defined by M284 polymorphism and including an undergroup Haplogroup I-L126 reserved for individuals derived for the L126/S165, L137/S166 polymorphisms, Haplogroup I-L701 associated with L701 polymorphism, and Haplogroup I-Z161 denoting individuals derived for the Z161 polymorphism.


I-M284

Haplogroup I2a2a1a1 (ISOGG 2014). I-M284 has been found almost exclusively among the population of Great Britain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain), suggesting that the clade may have arisen in that island. I-M284 is comparatively rare in Ireland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland) except in the north-east. In regard to north-east Ireland, the presence of this subclade "provides some tentative evidence of ancient flow with eastern areas that could support the idea that the La Tene cultural package (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Tene_culture) was accompanied by some migration." Where it is found in those of Irish descent with Gaelic surnames, this suggests an ancestor who arrived in Ireland from Celtic Britain. Men with several Gaelic surnames such as McGuinness and McCartan bear this subclade, family groups that have a historically recorded 6th-century common ancestor, thus it is not the result of known recent gene flow between Britain and Ireland. While subclades of I-M284 are atypical of Ireland they are relatively common in continental Europe. The observed mutational divergence between men with this subclade suggests its foundation very approximately at 300 BC, thus dates and geography are circumstantially associated but not securely with Iron Age continental Europe.
I-CTS10057

Continentals. Mother Haplogroup for group I-Z161 (Continental 1 and 2) and I-L701 group (Continental 3). Around 10.000 years old.
I-Z161

Haplogroup I2a2a1b2 (ISOGG 2014). Z161+ defines the I2 Continental clade (except Continental 3). Its age is estimated around 7.000 years old. It is mainly found in North Europe, especially in Denmark, Germany, the Netherlands, and England. In Northwest Sicily it can also be found believed to be due to remnants of a Norman settlement.
I-L701

Called Continental 3. Continental 3 has a wide distribution. Found in Central Europe from Germany, Austria to Poland, Romania and Ukraine, but also in lower frequencies in Greece, Italy, France, Spain, England, Ireland, and Armenia. It may have been disseminated in part by the Goths. It is nearly absent from Scandinavia and Scotland.

mani
03-11-15, 12:43
Since research people found an old +M223 (subhaplogroup +Z161) in Spain from the age before the Germanic began to exist,
M223 is no more a Germanic SNP. Even the subhaplogroup +Z161 is not a proper Germanic SNP.

I think, a clear Germanic SNP can only be some subhaplogroup of +Z161 and another subhaplogroup of +M223, if we talk only about +M223 SNP lines.

mani
03-11-15, 13:07
The Suevi bore SNP+M223 certainly, but for sure, they were a lot of other tribes who carried it, too, probably, like Iberians, Celts etc.

Aaron1981
03-11-15, 15:52
The hotspot of M223 is today arround the Harz-Mountains in Germany.
Other Hotspots are in V´┐Żsterbotten (Sweden) Eastanglia (England) and the Lowlands (Scotland).
Another areas with a higher Level are the Benelux, Danmark and the Chech Republik.
The Roman political Tacitus says the Suebian Tribes lived west and east of the river Elbe and south of the Baltic sea. This was the same area wehre the Aunjetizer-Cultur had been.
Peter Heather is also speaking in His Book "Babarian Invasion" from the "Suebian-Triangle". It matsches nearly the same area in 3th century a.d.
Tacitus also says that the Angles have been a tribe of the Suebians. This would explain the hotspots in Britain and East Ireland.
You also find some M223 inthe northwest of the iberian penisuela - the Kingdom of the Suebians.
Some Thuringians - a elbgermanic tribe - settled near the Rhine in the 5th century. So we have some M223 in the Benelux
Parts of the Suebians have been Alamanni und that is the reason you find M223 in some areas of swiss.
I think in Sweden it could bee a bottleneck-effect in V´┐Żsterbotten. Perhapst Traiders of the Hanse in Medieval times.

What do You think?


The study which cited high rates of I2-M223 in Vasterbotten attributed it to medieval immigration from Germany. This seems more likely since it was relatively low elsewhere in Sweden. I2-M223 has shown up disproportionately in aDNA based on modern frequency, and has been found in both theoretical IE speaking groups of Yamnaya, but also the early European farmers. To me, it seems pan-European and probably not correlated to any specific group. I suspect it was found in both Celtic speakers, Germanic speakers, but also the earlier non-IE speaking communities of early Europe.

MOESAN
06-11-15, 20:21
I agree Y-I2a2 is widespread in Europe, but with a very spotty distribution and never with a majority. It's anciennety in Europe does not disprove some subclades were more involved in precise moves during history, taken along with "invaders" or colonizers of other origin, or they stayed where they were but had some strong role for they were locals of economicaly intresting regions?
My old bets linked to BBs are weakened; but some subclades of Germany could be linked to Bronze colonization of the Netherlands-Denmark-Sweden-Norway (southern lands) and even U-K! other clades could be involved in La Tene moves; but we need more well distributed aDNA geographically speaking.

Peter Wilding
17-03-18, 22:27
Anyone here positive for I-L623? If not anyone know anything about this subclade - for example current geographical location or any other information about this sub-group? Thanks in anticipation.

salloci
18-06-18, 18:03
HI Peter,
Im I-Z161 tested by Ftdna after my I-Z161 first result.
I have not too much information, it very rare subclade. Im trying to find out more info but its very hard.
My recent background is totally Iberian from Old Castile.
Regards

MatsCarlin
01-08-18, 20:28
The study which cited high rates of I2-M223 in Vasterbotten attributed it to medieval immigration from Germany. This seems more likely since it was relatively low elsewhere in Sweden. I2-M223 has shown up disproportionately in aDNA based on modern frequency, and has been found in both theoretical IE speaking groups of Yamnaya, but also the early European farmers. To me, it seems pan-European and probably not correlated to any specific group. I suspect it was found in both Celtic speakers, Germanic speakers, but also the earlier non-IE speaking communities of early Europe.

The I2-M223 lines in V├Ąsterbotten are certainly not due to medieval immigration. The largest group in V├Ąsterbotten belong to I-S8104 which seems to be Early Iron Age Scandinavian.

galon07
14-08-18, 22:20
I'm really interested in this, as I tested positive for M223 (specifically I-Z2059 now, down the I-L1229 branch). Every article I read (including the one in Eupedia) suggests that it was brought to the Iberian peninsula by the Suebi. I'm not sure about how updated those articles are, but it would be great to have new information. All I know is that there's a lot left to discover yet.

jkanters
20-08-18, 13:11
HI Peter,
Im I-Z161 tested by Ftdna after my I-Z161 first result.
I have not too much information, it very rare subclade. Im trying to find out more info but its very hard.
My recent background is totally Iberian from Old Castile.
Regards

I2-Z161 is the continentals of I2-M223. It is ten thousand years old and is most likely from northwest europe, although it is much older than german tribes. There is many subhaplogroups below I2-Z161 if You want to dig further

West
03-11-18, 09:05
People of Scotts Irish descent in the states are almost purely m223 (it seems), their families are a hodgepodge of German/Luthern, French Hugonaut and Uster Scott.

It is as if they all became Protestants then trickled over to America and then bred back together. People didn't tend to marry outside of their religion or haplo-tribe apparently.

Tutkun Arnaut
14-12-18, 18:51
I-M223

Haplogroup I2a2a (ISOGG 2014). The age of YSTR variation for the I-M223 subclade is 13.2┬▒2.7 kya[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M438#cite_note-familytreedna.com-1) and 12.3┬▒3.1 kya.[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M438#cite_note-Peter_Underhill_2007_pp._33-42-10) I-M223 has a peak in Germany and another in eastern Sweden, but also appears in Romania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania)/Moldova (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldova), Russia, Greece, Italy and around the Black Sea.[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M438#cite_note-16) Haplogroup I2a2a has been found in over 4% of the population only in Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany), the Netherlands (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands), Belgium (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgium), Denmark (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark). England (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England) (excluding Cornwall (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornwall)), Scotland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland), also the southern tips of Sweden (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden) and Norway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway) in Northwest Europe; the provinces of Normandy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normandy), Maine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maine_(province)), Anjou (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anjou), and Perche (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perche) in northwestern France (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France); the province of Provence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provence) in southeastern France; the regions of Tuscany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuscany), Umbria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbria), and Latium (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latium) in Italy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy); Moldavia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldavia) and the area around Russia's Ryazan Oblast (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryazan_Oblast) and Republic of Mordovia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordovia) in Eastern Europe. Of historical note, both haplogroups I-M253 and I-M223 appear at a low frequency in the historical regions of Bithynia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bithynia) and Galatia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia) in Turkey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey). Haplogroup I2a2a also occurs among approximately 1% of the Sardinians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinia). The subclade divergence for M223 occurred 14.6┬▒3.8 kya (Rootsi 2004).
Haplogroup I-M223 can be further subdivided in several subclades designated in the Y2012 ISOGG tree as follows: Haplogroup I-M223* with no further known polymorphisms, Haplogroup I-M284 defined by M284 polymorphism and including an undergroup Haplogroup I-L126 reserved for individuals derived for the L126/S165, L137/S166 polymorphisms, Haplogroup I-L701 associated with L701 polymorphism, and Haplogroup I-Z161 denoting individuals derived for the Z161 polymorphism.


I-M284

Haplogroup I2a2a1a1 (ISOGG 2014). I-M284 has been found almost exclusively among the population of Great Britain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain), suggesting that the clade may have arisen in that island. I-M284 is comparatively rare in Ireland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland) except in the north-east. In regard to north-east Ireland, the presence of this subclade "provides some tentative evidence of ancient flow with eastern areas that could support the idea that the La Tene cultural package (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Tene_culture) was accompanied by some migration." Where it is found in those of Irish descent with Gaelic surnames, this suggests an ancestor who arrived in Ireland from Celtic Britain. Men with several Gaelic surnames such as McGuinness and McCartan bear this subclade, family groups that have a historically recorded 6th-century common ancestor, thus it is not the result of known recent gene flow between Britain and Ireland. While subclades of I-M284 are atypical of Ireland they are relatively common in continental Europe. The observed mutational divergence between men with this subclade suggests its foundation very approximately at 300 BC, thus dates and geography are circumstantially associated but not securely with Iron Age continental Europe.
I-CTS10057

Continentals. Mother Haplogroup for group I-Z161 (Continental 1 and 2) and I-L701 group (Continental 3). Around 10.000 years old.
I-Z161

Haplogroup I2a2a1b2 (ISOGG 2014). Z161+ defines the I2 Continental clade (except Continental 3). Its age is estimated around 7.000 years old. It is mainly found in North Europe, especially in Denmark, Germany, the Netherlands, and England. In Northwest Sicily it can also be found believed to be due to remnants of a Norman settlement.
I-L701

Called Continental 3. Continental 3 has a wide distribution. Found in Central Europe from Germany, Austria to Poland, Romania and Ukraine, but also in lower frequencies in Greece, Italy, France, Spain, England, Ireland, and Armenia. It may have been disseminated in part by the Goths. It is nearly absent from Scandinavia and Scotland.


My haplogroup is also I-M233 preciously
I2a-M223>L701>S25733 and I am from South Balkan's. Is this native to the area or is Gothic.? Goths were at the area for 200 years.

Tutkun Arnaut
14-12-18, 18:51
I2a-M223>L701>S25733

Tutkun Arnaut
14-12-18, 18:53
Its M-223-I701-25733

Tutkun Arnaut
14-12-18, 18:53
I2a-M223>L701>S25733

Palermo Trapani
22-01-20, 04:47
Tutkun: I am I-M223 and my ancestors all immigrated to the USA between 1890-1904 from Sicily, provinces of Trapani, Palermo and Agrigento. Rural and mountainous villages. So it is in Sicily as well as Tuscany, Umbria and Lazio.

Tutkun Arnaut
22-01-20, 12:07
Tutkun: I am I-M223 and my ancestors all immigrated to the USA between 1890-1904 from Sicily, provinces of Trapani, Palermo and Agrigento. Rural and mountainous villages. So it is in Sicily as well as Tuscany, Umbria and Lazio.
In that area settled the Normans (I think, not sure) a Germanic tribe. I don't know the reasons why and how but Germanic presence in Palermo area is well known. They still speak their own language, and they are the source of blond Sicilians. if you do deep clade analysis you will know if the source of your I2 were Normans or is a local clade. my clade comes from North some 2700 years in the past.

Palermo Trapani
22-01-20, 16:15
Tutkin: Yes, Normans were in that area but they left primarily I1 and yes Gallo-Italic is still spoken in about 15 towns/districts in Sicily. I got my Y-DNA Haplogroup analysis from National Geographic and their history report noted that I-M223 (I2A) lineages were surviving ones post LGM with the WHG. There is some research to back this up that is out there that we can refer to. So based on what I have been reading, I was wondering if others here see the I-M223 is just more related to WHG and not "Germanic" perse. On all my gedmatch calculators, my single distances are all Sicily and Southern and Central Italian regions up to Abbruzzo. With respect to deep clade analysis, is FamilyTree the best for that.

Thanks for the response.